How to Install a Whole-House Ductless System | Ask This Old House
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- čas přidán 16. 08. 2018
- Ask This Old House plumbing and heating expert Richard Trethewey shows a style of ductless heat pump that can be used to heat and cool an entire house.
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Time: 1-2 days
Cost: $10,000 and Up
Skill Level: Professional
Steps:
1. Installing a whole house heat pump is best left to a professional contractor. The contractor should run a heat load calculation to determine the correct sizing of the overall system.
2. A wall-mounted ductless heat pump is a good solution for open areas like entertaining areas, bonus rooms, or open floor plans.
3. Outdoor units can be sized to accommodate multiple zones of heating and cooling.
4. In snowy climates, the outdoor unit should be mounted above the snow line.
5. Refrigerant tubing connects the outdoor unit to the indoor units via a branch box which can connect 5 indoor units with individual refrigerant lines.
6. Ductless units can be attached to duct work to feed conditioned air into the living space. Each unit requires two refrigerant connections, a drain line to remove condensate, a supply duct to bring conditioned air to the living space, and a return duct to bring the air back to be heated or cooled.
7. Each zone has its own programmable thermostat.
Resources:
All of the heating and cooling equipment, including the outdoor condenser, indoor wall-mounted unit, and indoor air handlers [amzn.to/2A4Cr1u] are manufactured by Mitsubishi Electric Cooling & Heat (www.mitsubishipro.com/).
Expert advice with this installation was provided by NETR Inc. (www.netrinc.com/).
About Ask This Old House TV:
Homeowners have a virtual truckload of questions for us on smaller projects, and we're ready to answer. Ask This Old House solves the steady stream of home improvement problems faced by our viewers-and we make house calls! Ask This Old House features some familiar faces from This Old House, including Kevin O'Connor, general contractor Tom Silva, plumbing and heating expert Richard Trethewey, and landscape contractor Roger Cook.
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How to Install a Whole-House Ductless System | Ask This Old House
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Rich Thredewy is a class act. He knows his business, and takes the complicated concepts of HVAC systems and explains them clearly and with certitude. I am an educated homeowner. Thank you, Richard.
A system like that installed is 20k so it's really simple til you have to work on it
@@bmillwood6666 What’s complicated about working on a heat pump…do tell us…
There are shows back 30 years where his Dad was the HVAC guy and Richard part of the team doing the Labor.
Richard Trethewey
By far the best explanation of the system so far I am no longer confused thank you This Old House.
Wow, you're an idiot.
If you're going to place ducts in the ceiling and place a unit in the attic, it would be less expensive to use a conventional design. The unit's shown in this video are likely more expensive. I've owned six houses over the years and had to replace the heat and air units in all of them. For longevity and reliability, I found it is always better to go with a conventional heat pump that comes with a ten year warranty. In one house, three small units proved more efficient that two large units. We are able to control different zones much better.
Also, if the sun shines directly on your outside unit, you can add another layer of foil back styrofoam the top of the unit to help in the summer.
A typical problem in design is not having a large enough return air duct. If the return air duct/ducts are not sufficient in size to allow enough return air, your unit will not operate at it maximum efficiency. We added an additional return air duct to one existing five ton heat pump and the difference in efficiency paid for the cost of the duct work in two seasons.
In another house, we added outside motor controlled shades to cover upstairs windows during the afternoon sun in the summer. Before we added the shades, the upstairs air conditioner ran constantly, never able to cycle during the hottest months of the year. The motor powered outdoor shades cost $1300.00. They paid for themselves in three years. The upstairs unit can now cycle instead of running all day.
Before spending a ton of money on any heat and air system, get several quotes. Some of the HVAC guys understand the entire system and some only understand how to install pieces of equipment and have no knowledge about sizing, air flow restrictions, and location of vents.
Get a written quote that specifies everything, each piece of equipment, including model numbers, and be sure your quote specifies a total cost for all materials and labor. When you get multiple quotes, you will see the difference between those who know what they are doing verses those who only sell and install pieces of equipment.
Change your filters regularly. Use the middle grade filters, not the super fine particle ones, nor the cheap anything-but-a-boulder can pass through them.
Taking the time to research will pay off big time in the long run, if you plan to stay in your house for many years.
Thank you so much Jack this will be very helpful for me when making a decision to retrofit an HVAC in my home.
I will use this advice when we go for our heat pump, thank you for the insight 🙏🏾
I live in the snow belt in NY. It gets really cold and damp...and in the summer it gets really humid and hot. I use my hot water baseboard boiler system in the winter and my Mitsubishi mini-splits in the summer. I have 3 head units and I oversized the condenser unit for AC in the summer. No matter how hot it is outside, these units keep my rooms at 1 degree accuracy..and with a 2000 sqft house with cathedral ceilings, i spend no more than $120/month on my total electricity bill. I also keep it at 70F during the day and turn my bedroom down to 68F at night.
Since I also heat my home with wood in the winter to take the chill off..the mini-split head units can also be used as fans to keep the air moving. This helps with wood heat. I use them to help heat in the 'shoulder season' as well. Those days when you just need to nip the chill off, but can't justify starting a fire.
I'm so happy with these systems that I'm going to put a smaller unit in the shop i plan to build. They blow the doors off a regular duct system.
Dave C. Your install is very simular to my system in Central Va but I did not expect the two ton Mitsubishi to provide 99% of my heating needs. I do bring up the hotwater heat a few days a year when we have zero degree mornings. The unit will be break even after four winters and whats not to love how they manage summer time humidity?
As a master electrician and contractor ,I have seen heated cable drywall before. It was a nice system as every room had its own thermostat. What we usually did was abandon it and install baseboard heaters and a heat pump forced air system for a/c and heat. In the Detroit area in the 70's the utility gave homeowners a special low winter rate that was intended to make use of excess capacity in the winter. However when the rates changed homeowners bills sky rocketed two to four times higher! They were forced to redo their HVAC system.
Electric heat would work if the electricity remained cheap... or, if you generated your own electricity via rooftop solar... hmmm... an idea whose time has really come?!
+S. Brian Chong , It takes a LOT of PV to feed heating systems!!
For our current house, estimates for 12.5 KW of PV panels, would only cover about HALF or less, of our winter electric bill, for a 1970’s basic, substandard construction, 1500 s.f. tract house. We have 4 adults living here, all running multiple electronics, some are 24/7....efficiency of those cannot be decreased, yet.
If we first get one of the highest efficiency heat pump mini-split ductless systems [Daiken, Fujitsu], THEN that same PV array, MIGHT almost feed our whole electric bill, including heating...that is, Until the utility jacks-up electric costs again.
Also figure: Tax assessors jack-up property value/taxes, every time they see a property improved...new roof, adding a driveway, solar energy installations, other houses sold for massively higher prices during the year, etc.
Electric resistance heat [portable heaters, baseboard heaters, etc.] are costly to run, due to electricity costs increasing so much. But electric resistance heaters CAN be more efficient than HVAC blowing through many feet of ducting [depending on how well or not the ducting is insulated], because blowing the air you just paid to heat, immediately loses upwards of about 75% of the heat you just paid to make; that is how promoters of baseboard heaters, or ceiling radiant electric, got away with claiming those cost less to use than central HVAC.
Still interested in Solar heating? Cheapest solar heat we’ve experimented with, was Solar Air Heat panels. I built a 64 s.f. array, using recycled aluminum cans [there’s some magic physics for choosing that]. Booted those thru a small south window, in a 100+ y.o., approx. 900 s.f. house which had been “brought up to code”, in SW WA State.
Used that for about 3 years with the original cheap corrugated greenhouse plastic panels [bad idea]; upgraded cover material after a few years, to Twinwall Polycarb. panels, which sealed better, &, added a 4” duct fan to boost air flow through the system. Some use computer fans run directly off a little solar panel.
That saved between about 100 to 300 kWh, off usual electric heat energy costs [usual heat included a Cadet wall heater in each room, or, a single oil-filled radiator running on 600 watts only].
That translated to saving between $10 to $50 per heating month.
CAVEAT for our location: There are about 2 weeks, approximately between Christmas and New Years, when we closed the boot box vents, then opened them once the “dark days” passed.
But that was real money saved.
CAVEAT for season: Solar Air Heating panels need to be covered during summer, to avoid heating the area and adding to urban warming, or melting down its components.
He also described the cables for the heating wrong! They go on the bottom of the sheetrock and then a skim coat to hide the cables, can't touch the insulation.
HVAC pros are really good at installing technology that ends up draining the bank accounts of people in the long and short term.
@@bebo5558 exactly, how the hell could one have hot wires touching insulation that woudl be a fire hazard.
I like the new technologies!! This is GREAT info to know. Fabulous JOB!! Merci
Not New but Old and used in ASIA and Europe for a long time..
An AC unit is a heat pump, a one way heat pump.
thanks for the video , although the system at my home completely different it is nice to learn about others ...
This was actually a really good explanation and demonstration. I’ll probably use this to show customers.
It is a good explanation how it works and what it is. However, it is horrible how to video.
Always a fan Richard... Would be nice to cover the costs. It's worth it over the long run, I'm sure, but holy cow, that does look expensive. Wish you covered that also.
It'd be about 35-40K for me to do that same system for one of my customers.
Many houses in the lower half of the south don't have furnaces and just use heat pumps such as this in the winter.
Kind of reminds me of our vav boxes put in our commercial building back in 1960 except they use water with pneumatic valves.
I am very interested in this HVAC technology! I would love to see more episodes exploring more details about more efficient heating and cooling along with humidity and air quality control integrated. Look forward to more!
MaximilianK1
Google Mitsubishi CituMULTI R2 systems
Sooo many moving parts to account for in this setup. The premise behind the minisplit system was to cool/heat an area of the home not suitable for ducting. In this example, there's an entire attic to install ductwork in a conventional cooling and heating unit. There are conventional inverter type residential units that would apply here that does the same job with far less equipment in the attic to account for.
All that is needed is a variable speed inverter heatpump condenser unit on the outside. Next, you will have (1) air handler with a variable speed blower in the attic versus (4) in this setup. Then, you will have your ductwork sized for the space, separating each area of the house you want to heat and cool separately by a damper module that will open/close to allow/restrict airflow to that area depending on needs of the individual thermostat. All of this is managed by a zone controller which based on a profile of the need of each zone of the house will instruct the air handler to provide a certain amount of airflow (CFM) and the outdoor inverter condenser to operate the compressor to operate at a certain RPM to deliver enough refrigerant capacity to cool/heat the zones calling for comfort.
This is an simplified explanation, but its less complicated than the example shown here in the video. My example deliver same results with less moving parts. But, in the end, you will need qualified technicians to troubleshoot AC to DC board issues. Not many are trained for this new technology.
You've glossed over the fact that most houses have unconditioned attics. You can't (ok, you can, but you absolutely shouldn't) install a/c equipment or even ducts in an unconditioned attic. This is building science 101.
Will agree the lack of technically compete techs is a evolving problem but Mitsubishi has addressed the servicing of their products with online diagnostics that should help. The low cost of many brands suggest they are following tv's as being throw-a-way products.
@@trevorlambert4226 Insulated ductwork fixes that mostly, but your cost for that part of the system just tripled.
The air-handler is mounted to the rafters to prevent vibrations from being transferred to the living space.
Yeah, the rafters aren't connected with nails to the walls and joists so that's good.
@@percyfaith11 so how do you think that they are connected?
@@allanmann2597 ask David Bergen. He's the one that thinks mounting the air handler to the rafters will prevent vibrations from being transferred to the living space.
Hint, it was sarcasm.
@@percyfaith11 Since you don't know how well this works, it works great, you should refrain from sarcasm. You only make yourself look ignorrant.
@@davidbrogan606 Ignorrant?? What is more ignorant than to suppose that mounting an air handler to the rafters will prevent vibrations from being transferred to the rest of the house? How's that work when the rafters are nailed to the joists which are connected solidly to the rest of the house?
You have to isolate the vibrations from the structure with rubber pads or other vibration isolation material.
I'll refrain from sarcasm when you refrain from silly statements.
Guys I need your service and that appliance at my house seriously 👍👍🙏❤️
wow, great set up. like the one above for separate room temps.
A great solution for older houses with no ducts for AC.
Yes unless the master bedroom is in the attic...then what? I'm trying to figure out how to add heat to an old house with an attic bedroom. Does anyone have advice?
I mean, for a house over 2k sq ft, how many units need to be installed? It might be good for small place like apartment with open space not divided room. I have one in Viet Nam in bedroom but when i moved to US, i have central system. Just wonder.
great information, thank you for sharing !!
Great video Rich!
Very nice but there's a LOT to be said for simplicity, esp. low frequency of repair rate. I kept my last central air units going for 48 years and replaced them because some simple parts like contactors were getting hard to find. The replacement cost was very low. My advice to anyone who has a central air unit is that, if it was installed properly (and you'd be surprised at how often they are not) and functioning well, never let anyone touch it! Keep the condenser area clean and free of debris. Clean the condenser coils with detergent and water spray, if necessary. Change the air handler filter (no more than MERV 8) when dirty. Don't cover the condenser with a completely enclosing type. I put plywood on top of mine separating it from the unit with 1/2 tennis balls.
An advantage of this kind of system is sound isolation, which is nearly impossible in a conventional HVAC system; there is no interconnection of ducts between zones to carry sound.
Thanks for the video on your company
For heat at least, I have to wonder if a regular high efficiency condensing gas furnace would be cheaper to run?
On the flip side, if the homeowner wants to spend more money up front, he can put in a solar system to generate some of the power to run the heat pump system. Further south, with a better solar coefficient, this could be really interesting.
As an alternative to electric baseboard ,radiant heat is ok. You can have a separate stat in each room and no duct work or drafts. In the late 196o's we wired several new home this way . They were in an area without gas service and the utility gave them a time of day meter for the heat at a very low rate. This was great till the program ended an the heat rate was equal to normal rate.
My Father had this system in his home in NCarolina. It was great until the ceiling fell in and the entire system had to be abandoned. It was a friggin catastrophe when it happened!
My issue would be heat rises and it is already above your head.
I love these videos about new technology. I just wish you would also report estimated costs.
It’s 20 to 30 year old tech at this point
Prices will date the programme and negatively affect its resale value. They were given in the first series, but then stopped when it was renewed. Google is always going to give you today’s market price anyway, so what’s the point?
Some of these units will improve and be useful in future.
Brilliant system.
Got one last year along with a $1000 rebate from my power company. Super comfortable heat in the Winter and nice and cool in the Summer. On top of all that at least a 35% savings on electricity costs!
How much did you end up spending on the system?
JudgeDroid I think just short of $4000
Woah! That's awesome. I've been looking for an alternative to running duct in our house. This is such a cool idea!
Grand Junction Guy There are actually ducted systems using the same base compressor to get air to different rooms. Much smaller than typical ducting so if there is a minimum attic or crawl space it can be done. Or can have a paired unit in another part of the house. So one condenser unit but multiple mini-split indoor units, each with it's own settings. Costs a lot more though. In my case one more indoor unit would have doubled the cost. One unit works pretty good for my little house (800 square feet.) Then add electric or portable AC to areas it can't reach well.
Thanks for your help. I'll check it out. Got a 70s style ranch house, and baseboard will be fine, we'd just prefer to switch at some point, and it's a lot about the cost of removing all the drywall and installing duct. Had no idea this existed, so it's cool to have options!
Love this show. Don't know shit about construction but I love to learn
2:35 The inverter property of an air conditioning AFAIK refers to the fact that there is a variable frequency drive on the compressor so it can run slowly instead of just only on or off. A variable frequency drive or VFD is basically an inverter like you use for camping. It converts the incoming power to DC and then makes it AC again at the requested frequency which determines the motor speed. It has nothing to do with getting more heat from outside than you would without inverter.
Well yes and no, You see in a standard heat pump the Air Conditioner capacity for cooling cant be over sized, both by code and actual operation. It will cause mold, temperature swings and freezing up. BUT an AC system only makes a 20 degree difference in temperature by design, So it is only cooling 90 degree outside to 70 inside, where as a heat pump must do 40-50 degree differences. But with a single speed compressor ether the AC is oversized and the heat pump side is undersized or the other way around. Now with VFR we can have a properly sized heat pump compressor that's got the capacity but can scale its power down so its not grossly oversized in cooling mode.
Ozzie Sheppard That makes sense. Though then this implies a few more steps than just “if inverter then better performance” like Richard explains it. Thanks for the info anyway!
Any time, I think he just says that to make it simple for people that don't understand things like manual J calcs, ETC.
On top of the benefits Ozzie mentioned, inverter mini splits just about always have an electronic TXV and variable speed fans inside as well as out. Compared to a conventional unit, they run close to optimal over a huge range of conditions.
Ye cannat break the laws of physics cap'n!
How about a video on whole house fan system with this crazy hot summer! 👍
there are at least 2 videos of Tom installing a whole house fan in a residential home
How about a swamp cooler instead?
I love how they show 2 guys working together to mount the ductless head lol
Never seen these new attic installed mini split air handlers. pretty interesting. Wonder how efficient they are in terms of Seer rating as well as the cost. Being an all in one evap/blower/air handler/txv etc they must be pretty expensive by comparison. The fact you can install then off one condenser and run them zoned is something I have not seen before. I have seen the mini split condensers with multiple head units but those each run individual linesets.
bdbrolly oh these systems are neat.
Mitsubishi has a system that allows for dual heating and cooling simultaneously.
Just adding a note here that I recently saw one demoed that took this to all another level. They've actually added brains to that manifold box and some kind of valving. Let's say you've got one air handler on the west side of the house that's getting direct sunlight in the evening and that room is heating up. At the same time the basement bedroom is running at 65° because it's subterranean. This one is smart enough to interconnect those two in such a way that it actually dumps The heat from the bedroom down into the basement. Basically before it dumps temperature to outside or pulls temperature from outside it balances the inside first
I’m interested in this because of my asthma and dust allergies!
It would be nice is TOH (not you guys reading this) gave us a final cost of the installs/work they do--in all their projects!. How much would this cost another homeowner with same size house to install, roughly? We know there's lots of variables, but what would it cost retail on the house in the video.
Kevin Johnson Still 25k
In Dominican Republic almost everyone uses this system for cooling. It really does the job!
I was just in the DR and there was only one place that I saw one of these....but it was the best A/C out of every other building we went into.
Turk Blackwell yeah they’re great. In DR this is honestly their only option since you can’t have a window unit (theft prevention/windows have rebar). I have seen them in Mexico and here in NJ at my barbershop. At the resort we stayed in Mexico the unit was so efficient that we kept it at 69°F while outside temperatures were in the high 90s
Do you know how much HVAC techs make down in the DR?
My wife and I have been looking into moving there
@@davidcerino1145 i wish i could move there but with money
@@wilg4654 same here. I install these systems in WA state. While I am aware that I cant make nearly half of what I make here down in the DR, I was hoping at least I could land a specialization job like this down there.
I wish I had known about systems like this when I did my remodel. Seems like a fantastic way to do a zoned system.
Awesome system
It's been a couple years. Can we get an update from this family on how it worked for them over a few winters?
I know this man and his family. He said they’ve had a subpar experience. Energy bill didn’t decrease any significant amount. And the air handler is very loud.
@@DctorSkillz1 OOF!
The coils are outside of house envelope. The rule of 72 applies. Last week it was 98 in New Hampshire, the lowest the AC thermostat could be set would be 78 before the coils in the attic freeze up. Shouldn’t the coils be in house envelope? Either put them in a closet or extend the envelope to under the roof. Right?
You make absolutely no sense. Your system is broken if your coil is icing at 98F.
Lookin good Richard!
Wonder about options for a home with hydronic heating. Basement and main floor use Pex but upstairs uses radiators. Just need cooling and this might provide an option since the house is ductless.
HI Richard, while I like the information I would be interested, base on your calculations you made on this house what was the final cost to the home owner? It is nice to see these units being used in the north east.. The split system has been around a number of years now. Thinking of putting one in my garage so my workshop will cool in summer and a little warm in the winter. Thanks Rich
Richard Garrow just a single unit like showed in the first half of video with the electric heater was ab $2600 to have installed for a very large room. Don't know too much more. They are basically maintenance free and fewer points of failure compared to a traditional central air. They last a very very long time too. Especially since you don't use it as much only when the room is being used. It can cool the room down from 80 to 66 in minutes while 100 outside it's great
Richard Garrow yes...Dan Lacker here has presented a good estimate, I was gonna say 2000 or a little more for a single head unit for one room from my experience in construction
Thank you both for your replies it is extremely helpful.
300$ - single unit with 4" flexible duct that throws hot air into outside space through a hole in a window or in a wall. Requires cloze to zero installation (attaching adapter for its duct to a window). Comes with this adapter [4"duct->window]...
thank you Alek much appreciated information..
My Fujitsu's work down to -15 f. So far this winter it's worked perfect and my bill is only $100 a month
How much ball park figure does it cost to buy hardware & installation?
@@CharlesLukoba i have a 3 ton, 3 zone units. One 18k btu and two 9k btu. Contractors wanted to charge me 20k, I have a 609 universal license so I bought the equipment from a distributor for $4900. All together with everything I had to purchase to get it running, I spent $6500. I installed it myself.
A Font Jesus so the profit margin (greed)company’s charge is what kills making it more affordable for the average consumer not so much the equipment .i couldn’t sleep a night knowing I ran my company that way ,I’m not the cheapest in my field but I’m not raping customers just to have excessive profits for my Benefit .no I’m not in the ac heat biz ,so maybe I’m disconnected on actual labor cost of these type systems ,so I would like to hear somebody chime up on justifying such a jump in price of 6-7 grand materials to a total 20 grand with installation .i could see if access is limited complicated and more time consuming but a traditional house with a clear attic and or crawl space I wonder .
@@kevinclark4459 when I looked at my quote they wanted to charge me to mount the evaporator head which is the part that blows the heat into the house, $4500 per evaporator. Mounting that evaporator is the easiest part of the job.
This is amazing. Do you think it will do the job in a New England cold weather?
GREAT ideal. However, I would like too kno the maintenance on a system this size.
I think it's less complicated when you look at it as 4 small systems. They run independently of each other other than they're connected to same outside unit.
It seems to me that the multiple units would be working against one another with differences of temperature settings in different areas of the overlapping zones of operation which would be more inefficient and drive utility rates even higher. Without isolation of zones, the operating units would have to work harder.
As for radiant heating ceilings, thermodynamic principles establish that heat rises and therefore would be highly inefficient as most of the heat generated in the system would want to rise away from the area wishing to be serviced again requiring more energy in than usable amount of heat out.
This reminds me of an episode of Futurama where Amy and fry go for a ride on mars in her car and each person has their own climate control zone and they keep offsetting each other by increasing hot and cold instead of turning both down.
This is a good idea where northern areas still heat with freaking fuel oil! Or propane! If u have natural gas that is still the way to go.
I have a heat pump system in il. Brand new 5years ago. 7k to install vs 15k to get natural gas to my house. Works great but it's a cool heat. Register is putting out say 75f to get room to 70. Gas heat would be 110f. So gas heats a room faster and "feels" better .
Heat pumps have there place but hardly for everyone.
Yes sir, heat pumps are only good till about 35-40 degrees Fahrenheit.
Here in Texas we actually install heat pumps and gas together(Dual Fuel system) from time to time. Primary source of heat is the heat pump and if it cant keep up or runs for an extended period the gas furnace will engage and shut down the heat pump.
@@jesseluna4731 Ahh - so installing 2 systems is a sure way to save money?
@@Redandranger Its not 2 systems. it's still one system, with 2 separate heat sources which can heat the home if the outside conditions becomes too cold for the heat pump to run.
a gas furnace
an evaporator coil
and a heat pump for the condenser instead of a straight cooling unit makes it a dual fuel system. which is still "one system"
I like the original ceiling
acts like a toaster oven design.
Eat off the ceiling and eliminate dish washing.
I have two ductless mini splits exactly like the one in this video. I also have a ducted unit on my 2nd floor. I stopped using them for heat. In Jan/Feb my electric bill was over $700 per month.
😢
Now you need wind power turbines or solar panels and a storage battery to power your system.
Sounds like they were poorly sized or installed wrong
I like how they talk about finding heat outside on frigid cold days. What they never say is that it’s a basic law of Physics that says Compressing gases makes them get hot. It’s not till it goes through a Venturi where the pressure drops that you get the extreme cold used for refrigeration. Ergo if you reverse the system you have the high-pressure gas which is hot going in front of the blowers that blow the heat into the house.
This isn’t a HVAC class or a physics course. The details on how it’s done don’t matter here. He explains the basic refrigerant cycle and that’s plenty for people who watch this. Those who want more can find it online.
Is it just me or is that outdoor stand super rickety? Seems like hurricane / windstorm and that thing will blow right over.
Ben Hines I like the idea of wall mount outdoor better
Top of the unit also bolts to the house which he didn't show.
@@garyduke23 Also looks like they still needed to screw it down to the concrete pad. They probably did that last.
@@dylanreischling4151 you probably need some distance from the house...
@@ovidiuciuparu6421 what?
its great if you have a spare 100k to install 4 machines per floor and have solar for the running cost
What they didn’t show on this clip is a little earlier Rich said that it was going to cost a ton of money to run a natural gas line from the street to the house. Then he said something to the effect of “since that was so expensive, this was to only alternative”… ok so what about propane? What about fuel oil? This was certainly not the only alternative.
What about the access panels for those in the dry wall ceiling? Are they gonna rip off existing ceiling heating coils?
No insulation for attic space.
That's fine when you are building new house, but investing around 20K to replace existing system?! Did anybody calculated return of investments? When you count the delta between what you are paying now and what you will be paying after installation of new system, you will be probably in 30-40 years till you see the financial benefit.
Laughs in 2021 housing market voice
Radiant heat is terribly inefficient. I’d imagine electricity bill is a quarter. Probably 20 years. Plus radiant heat is very dry
The question that comes to mind is, what happens on a day that is below 5 degrees? I assume it would struggle to keep the house above warm.
There's backup electric heat.
They’ll still heat down to -15f
@@mark31383 Ooh - we have had -20F here in Flagstaff, but only once. We have a gas fireplace that will probably be our backup for the really cold days.
How quiet is the air handler in this system (specifically, the return and supply) compared to a conventional heat pumps?
How do you guys get around the wires, have same set up and lay out in my house would love to do the same thing.
Ka-Ching!!
I thought heat always rose. If the heat is produced and it radiates from the ceiling in the kitchen wouldnt it be very inefficient?
hot air rises, heat transfers to cold...... that's why they're called hot air balloons, not heat balloons LOL
The outdoor unit actually just reverse cycles. It is turning work into heat in the working fluid to transfer heat into the space.
😆 say what now ??
I want to do that but 4 air handlers seems too much. Cant you have lesst handlers and just do thermistatically controlled dampers for zoning?
My man forgot the nylog! They'll be back for a charge😉
got'a set up that service call ;) Oh you DON'T want the extended warranty? No problem I'll just put this Teflon tape away. ;)
“Nylog is for techs that don’t know how to make proper flare fittings”. That’s what my AC teacher used to say.
@@peteaulit your teacher probably doesn't use digital gauges or a micron gauge either. Stuck in his old ways. Make good flares AND use nylog.
@@aaroncruz5854 funny... my teacher thought me how to use a micron gauge and the importance of using it. He was also an experienced refrigeration tech who knew how to make leak-free flare fittings having worked on semi-hermetic compressors, something that clearly a lot of techs lack these days. So is nylog a good thing to use? Maybe but it’s not necessary.
Another thing he used to say is that you can make an AC tech out of a refrigeration guy but the other way around is much harder and I definitely second that!
@@peteaulit yes, going from hvac to refrigeration is more challenging. Only the good ones can push through and learn both. I would challenge that pressures for 410a and having flare fittings, while perfect, could still develop a leak. And better safe than sorry. Plenty of bad techs in commercial refrigeration also.
So, the only reason this should be done is if you have no mutual attic between the rooms, right?
Because a simple zoned HVAC system would do all this but for 1/5th the cost...
roadrunnersk2 a simple zoned HVAC system, while simple, does not quite have the same efficiency as these systems.
Hell, if you have a furnace, often times the bypass will trigger the hi-limit when only one zone has a heat call.
Of course, the other side of the coin is the problem with servicing these systems
Recall the RAID disk storage approach. Redundancy and low cost that enables using smaller but multiple units that can back each other up. Put a high seer small mini in each room or connected space as good load design calls for. Because of the herein discussed inverter technology, each one can have some oversizing without efficiency loss. If one unit breaks down, and that always happens at night or on a weekend (think OVERTIME), just open the doors and let the adjoining units carry until the errant unit can be repaired, during those wonderful "regular business hours". One compressor per house? No, don't make me! As I commented in another reply, air circulation and purification (exchanging with outdoor air) can be done separately. Or just open a couple of windows now and then?
Europe has the same so popular about 1/2 the us price eve with the vat just because they outlawed window units
All these lines and coils means more possible for line a coil leaks and circuits boards going out!!! If your going to add all these units in several rooms just put in a damm big ac unit!!! Less problems in the long run. Plus these large units cost 3 to 4 times the cost of one large unit.
Why would they ever put radiant heat in the ceiling, rather than the floor?
Ceilings impervious to nails, screws, drills, and just about any other kind of damage.
And heat rises, so it keeps itself warm.
/s
How much are these systems?
Mine is old house, unlike the idea of putting unit in attic which helps to save space too. Just want to check if this thing available in Ontario Canada and how much that will cost.?
I'm envious of the basements all y'all got up there.
How much did this system cost for The materials, 4 zone, condenser, basement ductless and air handler?
$4,600 with 18 months financing interest free.
@@billyrowe0064 Where you get that info? It says 10K+ above, and I am sure this install was WAY more than that. Just a single mini split install maybe 4-5k!
Electric heat cable is installed AFTER the sheetrock, and is then plastered.
wrong it's embedded in the sheetrock I've installed quite a bit of it in the past,at least the products I've installed.
@@sirstomper how do you embed it in the sheetrock?
Anyone know which mitsubishi air handler this is?? Did he say he has 4 air handlers with 5 branches off of each? So thats 20 line sets to 20 different spaces or so?
cool!
I have been using this split type design for years. The units can heat as well as cool, though as I live in the Philippines, we never use the heat part of it.
There is one thing that isn't mentioned. These units need frequent cleaning with high pressure water. And not just the outside compressor. The inside air handlers need to be cleaned as well. We always position our air handlers above windows where we can use tarps to drain the water during the cleaning to the outside. Using the units 12 hours a day, we need to do this every six months.
So how is that going to work in the attic?
I saw these all over Australia when I was there. One benefit is in most the rest of the world ductless is common, older and affordable tech. But its still new to the US [ thanks to hvac manufacturing lobbyist] , and as usual the US consumers get charged a premium.
And what happens when it's below 5 degrees? Bundle up and wait?
The Hi or high heat version of that equipment is efficient at lower temperatures
@@peteaulit you're right but not to 5 degrees
Remove bottom 4' sheetrock. Remove utilities install foam in wall build transcoding with flat romex then 2" foam panels exterior. Super insulation house a hair dryer for heat . passive cooling windows top and bottom. Window sun block summer cut heat gain. Foam attic.
insulation insulation and more insulation Bonus would be roxul insulation and if I could have gotten it back in 2004 it would have been put in my modular home .I just added more to my attic and I am considering tearing out the membrane and old insulation under my floors and putting in roxul .I have upgraded just about everything in the house .We only have electric here or propane .Nothing else in the country setting here
That ducted unit would make a sweet coffee table...
How much does it cost to maintain the refrigerant in this system? Looks like all the tubing connections were made with flare fittings. There is a manifold with 5 zones inside and another line-set that goes to outside unit; so SIX line-sets total. A line-set is two pipes with flares on both ends; so four flares each line-set. Also two shraeder valves on the outside unit. 6 x 4 + 2 equals TWENTY-SIX possible leak sites!!! A flare connection is cheaper labor than brazing a connection, so why aren't standard A/C units installed with flare fittings? Conclusion: flare fittings must be an inferior connection to a brazed joint!
Flare fittings are standard in propane heaters.
In these systems (which use R410A refrigerant) flare connections provide the least contamination in the system.
These connections must be tightened with a torque wrench.
The way I heard it, in Mitsubishi’s case, the engineers cane and saw the brazing practices in the US, and determined that in order to warranty their equipment, they would have flare fittings instead.
Back in the day, we did not use nitrogen to braze, and this would cause carbon flakes in the copper to form. In these sophisticated systems, these flakes can plug up a Kettering device.
I think they are not moving to brazed fittings in the commercial side, though.
They have moved to brazed fitting in commercial applications. It is true that most people dont purge with nitrogen as they weld. It's also true that the carbon or soot builds up inside the pipe. What I hate is the 80% of techs who cant figure out how to flare, use a torque wrench, lube the fittings prior to torquing, and overall stupidity.
It is the manufacturers directive to use a torque wrench and add a drop of refrigerant oil in the threads. Not sure if that is what you refer to as "stupidity".
The flaring practices in mini-splits vs conventional split systems is a bit different.
It is a slightly different practice with different tools when it comes to mini split systems. For starters, you don't use the same flaring tool that is used for, say, water and brake lines. The conventional tool tends to simply squash the tubing into the cone, which causes micro fractures in the tubing. In mimi splits, the tool constantly spreads the tubing around until it reaches the flare form.
So, if your grandpa taught you how to flare refrigerant lines for mini splits, great!!!
But if you are referring to conventional flaring, then it is a different methodology.
In my 1929 house, we are replacing a central HVAC / ducted system that was add in the 50s using fur-downs to reach each room. To eliminate the fud-downs in a renovation, we are leaning towards a ductless (Mitsubishi or Daikin) system with in-ceiling cassettes. Is there a solution for 2 small rooms that are adjacent to each other? In my case, we have a guest bathroom that is next to a laundry room. Is there a product or solution that can condition both rooms with 1 unit?
Fujitsu mini duct. Can be mounted vertically if needed
Why would you not install filter grills? Now you have to go into the attic to clean and reinstall the factory filters.
"Yeah that's great" fake smile looks at camera
electric wires designed to heat up are plastered into your drywall. what could go wrong?
Nothing. Drywall is fire resistant.
@canuckguy worried You ever have your drywall catch fire?
Geoff Pritchard hey, if steel beans can burn...
I want that!!
I have a two story house so I guess I’d need one in the basement and one in the attic.
Where can I get the infrared attachment for my phone ?
www.amazon.com/FLIR-ONE-Thermal-POWERBANK-Included/dp/B074T365VP
Thank you Jason !
@@billblendick9780 You're welcome!
I feel like I have seen this video a few years ago but not in as much detail. Still great video though.
this is a reupload
@@anikun Richard is a good bit older now, for example!
Do you need separate drain lines running outside from each of the 4 units?
Those cables wow
Man these ductless systems do work when installed correctly.. meaning all the mechanic fittings are tightened correctly with no leaks. Boom there good. If not then there are leaks and the BIG ITS NOT WORKING Hits the ears of the technician. 😑 In all these units are just a pain to work on.
4:38 The reason we did it is because we wanted you to charge you as much as possible.
At first I thought they were putting four units in the living room 😂😂😂
When you quote a time stamp, you need to quote BEFORE they say the words lol. Took 1 too many tried to figure out what you were even referring to, because clicking on that item stamp brings you to AFTER he says it
You can do the samething with a normal system with zone control.
You could but it’s quite a bit move invasive and complicated and won’t be half as comfortable
Hey what if it gets down to zero degrees, do these things have an emergency heat like a regular heat pump?
Yes it does
Is this better than current hvac units available now?
Randy Mullins Financially i don’t know. Though where i live, The Netherlands, they have stopped constructing gas lines to new houses, because the extraction of gas from the earth causes earthquakes, and it’s better for the environment anyway to run off electricity. It’s much cheaper and efficienter anyway than a basic electric heater. In 2030 or some year they want to be completely free of gas in the whole country.
No. Its just easier and cheaper to install in existing homes. Those unites are never chosen with new construction because they're slightly less efficient and less effective for heating and cooling.
The power bill is the main concern
yes they are more efficient because no duct losses. it takes up less space as well. also, and obviously, they can be more easily sized to your cooling space - for example if you only wanted to cool certain rooms it will be much cheaper than trying to cool the entire house with central AC.
This is a current hvac unit
40 grand in ductless to save $1000 a year ?
He is gaining Central air. I'm doing this for the ac the heat pump is just a bonus
Not worth it, do the math. Needs to be replaced in 20’years.... Thats $2k per year TCO plus utilities. No thanks.
Where are you getting this 40k number from? The outdoor units run from like 1000 to 5000, then each of the indoor units are 500 to 2000.. I could buy all the equipment for my 2000 sqft house for like 10k to 12k.
@@michaelblackmer8183 Plus licensed installers, running electric and plumbing to each location. His numbers has got to be more accurate than yours.
paid $4800, 1200sqft, 4 head
Hope they box that air handler in with insulation to isolate it from the attic heat and cold if they stick it up there.
We did it because we can!
Just imagine how much service calls will cost💵
there's the rub. Nice and comfortable, except for your wallet.