Video není dostupné.
Omlouváme se.
Star Trek The Next Generation Ruminations S2E09: The Measure Of A Man
Vložit
- čas přidán 24. 06. 2018
- Website: www.lorerunner.com
Help Support Lorerunner: / lorerunner
Twitch: / thelorerunner
Stream Uploads: / @lorerunnerstreamarchives
All original works are the property of respective owners.
This wasn't a lamentation, or a rumination, this was a new thing- an exaltation.
This is one of the most vivid episodes that stands out in my mind.
It's small but I always laugh at the poker table when Data says in utter shock "You had nothing!!"
agreed. He'd read over 70 books on gambling yet had never heard of bluffing? 🤔
And then the episode, where Data is the one with the pokerface. Data, what would TNG have been without him.
I started watching TNG, the first star trek series I watched, after I started watching your show, where it was often referenced, in the second part of last year. Up until that point, all I saw of star trek was a few of its movies, including the recent ones. I watched TNG, including its first season, with great interest. I started to like the universe before I watched TNG, but this episode, THIS piece of art and entertainment is what made me love it.
I can never state how much greatful I am of you and your work for the flavor and substance they brought into my life. Thank you. Always.
Great episode. Haven't been able to tune in to your ruminations for a while, had to watch this one. Keep on going my dude.
To answer some of your questions:
- Starfleet Command likes Maddox's idea because they want a lot of Data's. They are probably thinking along the lines of "Data is an incredibly effective officer, we need as many of those as we can get to take on the Romulans, Cardassians, Ferengi, etc." Sure, there's risk to Data involved, but you don't get to be an admiral without passing the bridge officer's test and probably having a quite a few people killed under your command and are used to the idea of "We're going to completely screw over this officer even to the point of killing him in order to secure a potential military advantage." That's a decision that generals and admirals make every day they fight a war.
- At least in the Napoleonic-era British Royal Navy, any captain who lost their ship and sometimes even lost a battle would have to answer in a courts-martial. In the most extreme example, Admiral John Byng was court martialed for "failing to do his utmost" in a battle that had been essentially a draw with a French fleet, was found guilty, and executed by firing squad.
An important historical parallel here: Dred Scott, the American slave who sued for his freedom, was legally completely correct, and the Supreme Court got to the point of stating "they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect".
I re-watched this right before your rumination to refresh my memory. Damn, this holds up.
Right afterward, I just had to re-watch The Color Purple. Makes for a great double feature.
The "Can an Enterprise Computer refuse a refit" argument is false of course. The Enterprise computer was not built by someone else and then decided to join Starfleet through an evaluation process (Wesley's Test in "Coming of Age")
The only way that argument works is if Madox could prove that Starfleet Commissioned Dr. Soong to build an Android for Starfleet, and that Data was that Android (or at least that final product)
The entire episode is based on that faulty premise and kinda falls apart for me. Data is only property (of Starfleet) if Starfleet built him or specifically had him built.
Because Data went through the recruitment process like everybody else his autonomy should be tacitly excepted like everyone else in Starfleet
I know this is like a year + old, but how about all the resources they put into Data. I thought the same thing, but if I find something like a dog (different than a piece of tech but stay with me) and the owner had died, and then I give him/her all of their shots, and also buy them a bed, flee medicine, food, shampoo, etc. that’s my dog at that point.
@@IARsmiley
Data isn't an animal, and he has basically gone through the equivalent of getting himself the shots and a bed, food too if he had need.
You're falling into the same problem of thinking, you can't compare Data to a dog as the problem here is if he's an indivitual or just a machine, a dog's a dog.
One of the best things about this episode is Louvois's expression when Data says that he and Tasha were intimate. I think that was the moment when her view of Data as a thing took a serious body blow. As you pointed out with Riker's facial expressions without a single word shows us exactly what's on his mind, and how he is feeling. And if I can make a point that I have made on many occasions before about the concept of "darkness" in tv and movies. As a writer I think you know better than most that there is a difference between a work being "dark" and a work being well crafted realism. The world is not dark because we expose the less PC side of things. As SF Debris said about the characters in Madoka Magica, they're just complex, they and the world doesn't fit into neat little categories like, dark and light, and it's a mistake to reduce things to easy catch phrases to describe complex ideas like deciding the rights of life forms someone else considers to be inhuman or subhuman. Great vid by the way, and excellent choice from Season two. As TNG goes this is in the top five in my opinion.
A downright moving analysis from you, Lore. There were good TNG episodes before this one, but "The Measure of a Man" was the first truly transcendent episode. One of my personal favorites!
There are three clauses of the Magna Carta which remain unaltered in English law. They've been on the books for 8 centuries.
Go on ....
This was always my favorite Star Trek episode. Thank you for this.
*"Random, stupid, clueless, doo dah luck."*
Did Lore just quote the Tommy Lee Jones version of Two Face?
I watched TNG a decade and a half ago, then forgot almost all of it. Yet one day I remembered Measure of a Man, and it made me rewatch TNG all over again. When people ask why I don't like DSC, this episode is my touchstone for why DSC is so alien. Measure of a Man is my defining moment for the whole series, if not the franchise. Its just great sci-fi.
I liked the High ground it was one of my favorite as a kid (I was around 12 when I first saw it), but it grew average for me then. Mostly because I remembered the main villain's speech about the fact the difference between a terrorist and a revolutionary is in whether or not you are in the establishment or winning camp (sorry I don't remember the exact details). Later I've seen the movie Dead Poets Society where the theme of perspective was prevalent. I really love that theme so that is why I guess:)!
This episode is probably the greatest single piece of television I’ve ever seen. And with it’s implications, everyone should watch it.
Aaaaaah, yes! THE Episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.
thank you for the amazing video!
One thing I have never forgiven Robin Williams for is that his movie version of the Bicentennial Man left out that quote. Arguably the single most important part of the whole story, and one of two key points (the other being Mr Martin's interpretation of the Third Law and humanity's response to it) - and it was left out entirely.
On another note, if anyone hasn't yet discovered it, I strongly recommend Humans, the AMC/Channel 4 collaboration. The basic premise: "synths" - androids lacking consciousness, but fully anatomically correct, and capable of understanding and following moderately sophisticated instructions - have been around for long enough to have penetrated all levels of society, but not long enough for society to have adapted. In the first episode, the Hawkins family get their first synth, and subsequently have to adapt on a personal level to the new world order, while there's also hints of something deeper going on in the wider world.
The series does an excellent job of exploring the issues around having a slave race of artificial non-sentients - and later, of the implications of some gaining (not developing) sentience. There aren't easy answers, and the show doesn't pretend there are. Currently there are three seasons of 8 "hour long" episodes each (47 minutes rather than 42), with 2 episodes yet to air here in the UK (I believe the US is running behind).
Watched this episode the other night. One of my quintessential Star Trek episodes to show someone who thinks Star Trek is just a silly Sci Fi show. Definitely one of my favourites.
Full court martials are not usually standard procedure when a ship is lost, usually there is a hearing before a board of inquiry, then if there is any evidence of neglegence it will be referred for court martial by the board of inquiry.
Out of all the discussions on THIS episode. This was the best. Great job!
Honestly you are like my favorite youtuber right now
In Romania (my country) there is also criminal court and civil court. I though this is always the case.
Dr Snodgrass: Welcome all the the Federation Cybernetics Council's Noonian Soong Fan club. First order is a request for reinstatement of Bruce Maddox.
Dr Maddox: Before we begin where is Dr Torme? Shouldn't he be here?
Dr Snodgrass: Dr Torme hired a Pakled ship and went in search of Data's brother, Lore.
Dr. Scheerer: I'm sure everything will be fine. Why are we wasting our time on this? After what Dr Maddox did he has no business showing his face here again!
Dr Sondgrass: Decorum, please! We must follow proper procedures! Dr Maddox, having made your proposal to disassemble and study Data and having it rejected by the cybernetics council on the basis that Data is sentient being and you may not have been able to put him back together again, you proceeded to wait until the Enterprise was at a remote station where the legal process would be handled by a single understaffed JAG office and then attempted to put him under your command and disassemble him before any appeal could be made. When we learned of your actions, your ejection from this group was voted on and passed without objection. What possible possible reason can you give for us to reconsider that decision?
Dr Maddox: I've learned my lesson. Data is not just a fascinating machine. He is unique individual worthy of respect.
Dr. Scheerer: Give us one reason why we should forgive your actions and trust you again.
Dr Maddox: Data gave me a book of poetry written by him.
Dr Snodgrass: I think no further debate is needed. All those in favor of letting Dr Maddox back in the club.
Club in unison: Aye!
Dr Sondgrass: It seems unanimous. Welcome back!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of my favorite episodes. Probably in my top 5 star trek episode of all time. Put aside the special effects and action. Put them in a room and load the episode with inter-personal drama and go to town!
Most likely if Maddox had succeeded in reproducing Data he would have created a race of Lores not Datas. In a way the danger presented to the Federation in this episode rivals that of the Borg. Data has the capability to seize control of the Enterprise whenever he wants and the crew would be hard pressed to stop him. Millions of him lacking his moral code? Frightening.
47:04 "I want you to think for a moment, of just how dark Starfleet and the Federation had become if they gone down the path of crafting a slave race of Datas. How badly that could have gone."
You're describing scenes right out of the Picard tv show.
Just watched the 'sode again in light of Picard S1E10. I recall what Q said. The trial never ends. Just a thought out of no where.
My god, looking at the comments and no one has brought up the new Picard series where they actually did make a whole race of androids, and did indeed enslave them as miners, factory drones, and toxic waste processors.
Not only was this an amazing episode with a poignant and timeless lesson, but the writers of Star Trek took that lesson, pissed on it, blended it, fed it to a dog, and the smeared the dog shit on paper and called it Star Trek Picard.
Don't forget what they did to the EMH Mark I's.
No courts in the future?! Make their "minds right"?!
I always had this theory that since we don't see Troi do much actual counceling, she had a different purpose. Why have a councillor on the bridge of an exploratory ship? (Not just a telepath like Troi)
Explain other cultures to the command staff from a psychological perspective (we don't see that with as psychologist weren't writing the episodes to explain those concepts)
I think Counciloors are really on the bridge to keep the Command Staffs "Minds right". Troi is like a Russian Political Officer during the cold war making sure the Ballistic missile captain's stay on the Party line. (Troi is basically the guy Connery kills in the start of Red October)
Alos we saw in the original series attempts to make peoples "Minds Right" in that episode where the inmates are running the asylum. (Forget the name) is that what Gene meant? That machine was perfected or something so no-one would have criminal thoughts? Is there a room in sickbay we haven't seen before?
I love this comment. I never thought about it like that before but it makes sense.
Brilliant rumination brilliant review and an outstanding episode ill openly admit I teared up listening to this as I've recently seen the episode as I i know what this episode means....and what it represents ...thanks keep up the good work
And on this day Jean Luc became Atticus Finch.
In the movie "starship troopers" they were talking about the bugs. An insectoid race. And the girls argument was that humans were intelligent, sentient, and in a way 'more important" because they made music and art. Life is MORE than just surviving. More than procreation. Its the art, the innovation, and philosophy of humans that make us more than just animals. How we measure ourselves, is the meaning of life.
I never even watched TNG, other than a few episodes in seasons 3 and 4, but watching you just gush is amazing.
even if you do not watch TNG, this episode does stand alone. I recommend it :O
Taking the measure of Data : living
or not- living ? This hearing is here
- fore assembled by the Almighty
Lorerunner to find out !
When the law is on your side hammer the law.
When the facts are on your side hammer the facts.
When neither are on your side hammer the table.
I’ve been going through with you and marking each episode on a 1-5 scale while I prep the list of key episodes for my friends.
1 is what you would call a lamentation. It’s irredeemable. Very rarely do I mark one, but you usually have it pre-marked as such by the time I get there.
2 is “I didn’t like it”, but maybe a critical plot element happens or there’s a good scene.
3 is “I have no feelings on the matter.” It’s average.
4 is “I liked it.” Something in it is special.
5 is an excellent, must-see episode. Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country, Balance of Terror, Best of Both Worlds, these are 5’s. This episode was a 5, and I’m glad we are in agreement on this.
"Minds made right." Sorry Gene, thats scary.
Seeing your reaction to this subject matter, you'll probably love the game "Detroit: Become Human".
czcams.com/video/fpprodeHWhQ/video.html
Well, haha, I missed that one. Thanks for the link.
So, Roddenberry wanted to destroy good storytelling and an amazing episode with his wacky, downright WTF political beliefs? Well, imagine my shock.
Serious though, "The Measure of a Man" is not only TNG's first undeniably classic episode, it's also quite possibly TNG's first actually above-average episode. Every episode up until now has either been below-average to one extent or another or just ever so slightly above-average ("Elementary, Dear Data" and "Unnatural Selection" are the only ones that come close to being above-average). When they "finally" got it right they definitely hit it out of the park! It's a shame that Season Two's bipolar problems with continue even after this.
The only thing that holds the episode back from being perfect for me is the guy who plays Maddox. He is acting is awfully stiff and wooden in several scenes.
9/10
every now and again I find myself wondering what it might be like to share a hug with Data. how a slight hint of humor could be made with "would you increase pressure by 10%" if they want a firmer hug, or the opposite if he hugs too tightly.
starfleet following a 300-year-old property law in order to own data would be like following the 3/5ths law in the 21st century
what the fuck federation
Lore runner, i must say i don't always agree with you, or even enjoy all your videos. but i must say, i respect you more than almost any you-tube reviewer out there. Perhaps for pretty bias reasons on my end being the Hopeless Star Wars fan boy i am, who is endeavoring to experience the admittedly beautiful world of Star trek i rarely have looked at in the past. You have helped me find meaning in episodes that other wise have flown over my head. keep up the great work, don't change a thing, even if folks like me disagree. This was a Wonderful rumination and you helped me see past the few layers i have witness on my own watching this episode. Great Job!
Me and my father would always watch TNG together during my childhood. It was the one thing we both really enjoyed "and i got to stay up an extra 2 hours on star trek night" but it was this episode that really stuck "like the death of Tasha Yar" and I never forgot it.
The strength of this episode derives from Patrick Stewart's soliloquy in the trial. He was able to use his English stage training to good use. It is where he shines. Certainly an episode a class above. Discussions of Metaphysics.
I think Starfleet was okay with it because militaries have always been willing to sacrifice their own soldiers in experiments. See them making soldiers advance into nuclear cloud for example.
Roddenberry's vision for TNG is incompatible with TOS in so many ways. The way he re-envisioned the Prime Directive for starters, but here again with how he re-envisions the legal system of the federation. I'm convinced he was using his position as gatekeeper for canon to bully the executive staff (by shooting down obviously good scripts and ideas) for more power and money which is why he got kicked upstairs and suddenly his complaint level dropped precipitously.
As for Measure of a Man it's a good episode, but it points to the problem I have with TNG. It doesn't challenge the characters, the setting, the audience or society. It strongly states that everything everyone already believes is right, but it does this with beautiful writing and brilliant performances.
Compare A Measure of a Man to the TOS episode A Taste of Armageddon where the very idea of "rules of war"as a societal good is challenged, do they make war better or do they allow it to go on longer by making it tolerable? It's why I call TNG, "Brilliant, Beautiful and Vacuous."
I think the question of whether or not Data is actually sentient is at least arguable from an in universe perspective. Obviously, the show is set up to present him as though he is, but you could make the argument that he displays sentience and growth is actually a result of his being so skillfully crafted to create the illusion convincingly. (ie. he may not actually value those things, but his programming prompts him to behave as if he does.)
I wouldn't make that argument, because again I think the show leans on the other side in a meta sense, but for the characters in universe, the question of Data's nature isn't as cut and dry as many fans want to think.
There's also the very real fact that from a strictly utilitarian standpoint, it would make sense for every ship to have an android given just how many TNG episodes feature the ship and crew being saved due to Data's unique capabilities. I can very much see how as dark as the implications are, that would be a tempting proposition, especially given how much other "thinking" technology the TNG era Federation has.
My problem with this episode is that if I were Picard I would have argued not on Data being a person but on the idea that Data is not star fleet property. Data is the property of the man who built him. His creator was not a part of star fleet was arguably not a federation citizen at the time.
negligence comes from a case in 1750 something, the verdict is still relatively today when America split from Britain the same case was copied into their law books. Today any negligence case in Britain or America will site that 1750s case as being relevant to the case. Some times old president is not obsolete president.
Imagine if an entire shipload of people tried to tell you that your socks are sapient lifeforms and that you have no right to wear them without getting their permission. I do feel for Maddox in this episode, because that's what this is like for him. Of course Data's not a person, of course he's property, of course he's disposable, that's the whole point! That's why Soong built him (in Maddox's mind; Soong's actual motivation was, well, crazier than that). Maddox really does want the *people* of the Federation to benefit from this incredibly useful tool, and it's such ridiculous nonsense that everyone talks about a Swiss Army knife like it's a person.
You’re so right about the importance of that "coda." Thanks for a good analysis.
Anytime someone says that Season 2 of TNG was a bad season, I point them at this episode.
Sure, Season 2 was still finding its feet. TNG was struggling. But there's several gems in that season. Elementary, Dear Data was another.
Other good episodes (not up at the level of Measure Of A Man, but still worthy, IMO):
- A Matter of Honor
- Time Squared
- Q Who
- The Emissary
- Peak Performance
And for the record, I liked Pulaski. Yes, I'm aware of the bullsh*t that went on behind the scenes, but Pulaski was a good Doctor. She might have abrasive, and more of a logical foil for Picard at times, but there was nothing wrong with her.
A great, great episode, one that I remember vividly. It is also an episode where 2022 suddenly places one of your points in a different context. When you talk about what law from 300 years ago would really be applied it was a good point. Today we have an actual leaked Supreme Court opinion that quotes a 17th century WITCH HUNTER as means to construct an opinion that makes women "lesser beings" Melinda Snodgrass was a bit prescient here, although she had the outcome go very differently.
Around 7:34 you say about something "this is still the realm of theory". My nitpicking self would prefer the term "hypotheses" rather than theory. Hopefully I don't come out as to harsh :)!
If you think the value of a burger cannot be undefinable, you've not had a good burger.
In answer to your question about whether reading a summary of a film and watching the film are the same experience - No. I once read a summery for Superman 4. It was more enjoyable than actually watching that film.
You made a great point about how dark the Federation would be if Data were allowed to be mass produced. Imagine if the Terran Empire had found Data or Lore on the Mirror version of Omicron Theta. No doubt there would be at least two Data for every ISS warship. One for dangerous missions, and another, probably more powerful one, as each captain's personal bodyguard.
Excellent rumination and episode.
just came here after watching this episode on youtube!
Great episode, definitely one of my favourite TNG episodes, and I think you nailed the analysis.
I do think that Maddox goes a bit further down the the dark path than you seem to - substitute an android with real people, and that’s exactly the kind of experiments the eugenics movement advocated. And it was also supposedly for the betterment of mankind.
05:00 no lawyers in the future due to being able to 'fix the mind' I am sure Gene was aware of the TOS series "dagger of the mind" imagine if he had not made that.
Looked forward to this one. One of if not my favorite S2 episode. Picard at his best, Riker having to go against himself to try to prove Data is not "alive". An antagonist that is not EVIL, mohahaha! Or another kind of BIG threat of the week, not against the ship itself but one of the crew, a very important one.
I am surely not alone in thinking that Data has the "role" in TNG like Spock had in TOS. Not in rank precisely but as the one person that is different. The outsider. Like the Doctor (at least for me, my favorite character there) in Voyager and like Odo from DS9. And, while this episode would not have worked quite as well in, say episode 2 of season one, here we have learned to know Data over a season and more. And while it might have worked even better in S3 or 4 it has an impact here, both as a stand alone rights-to story and as an allegory for individual and groups.
No real enemies, just different sides that happens to disagree on a point. Good stuff here.
Although Lorerunner is no fan of Shakespeare, Patrick's Stewart's Shakespeare performances in the PBS Masterpiece series in Macbeth and Hamlet are very good.
I think they're okay with it because the federation is creepy. They have this front that they are a caring, open freedom loving society yet they have no problems with ordering their citizens to die for engine maintenance and such.
I think you're confusing the Federation with Starfleet. Life on a Starfleet vessel on the edge of space is going to be more dangerous than life in a federation colony without crime or poverty. A Starfleet crew would have to make tough decisions in order to survive.
engine maintenance?...ok....you mean the machine who keeps the whole crew from instantly dying in space, or if handled incorectly can wipe out a solar system? i would say this can be relativly high up on the to do list...
And I shall never forget it.....
I always figured that, as far Starfleet Command was concerned, the transfer request was a perfectly normal one that probably happens dozens of times each day. And that whoever authorized it likely didn't give it any more thought than any other such request.
As for the bit about Maddox going after Data and not any of the other Soongian androids, or Soong himself, he, and Starfleet in general, only knows about Data and Lore, and no one knows where Lore is.
Been waiting for this one!
Such creepy Josef Mengele vibes from Maddox. I don't even look as far as thinking about the implications of a future slave race as I am already disgusted to the brim by just his immediate behavior. I know the rule about reducing arguments to comparing something to Nazis is the big no no of internet discussions (however applicable) so I'll bring up an assortment of genre examples that took me all of 2 minutes to come up with (and ten more to actually remember all their names) including from Star Trek.
First off there is the Voyager episode Nothing Human with the Cardassian Doctor Crell Moset (an obvious Mengele expy).
Then there is Maelon from Mass Effect 2 (a much more nuanced character).
The movie Phenonenon (for the very Maddoxish Doctors who want to take apart Travolta's brain).
The historical character of Gibea in the book The Wise Man's Fear (Read it if you haven't, 2nd book in Patrick Rothfuss' Kingkiller trilogy).
There was another movie example I only barely remember, I thought it was Coma but wikipedia is not backing me up, it ends with the villain's wife giving the protagonist her husband's data with the hope that they will use it better.
All these examples contain people who made (or tried to make) great medical discoveries at the price of monstrous research on unwilling victims and ask the question of whether it is right to use such genuinely valuable information when it came at so High a cost. If you use it will that encourage more people to take the same steps in the name of science/bettering humanity? Is it a waste to destroy data that came at such a high price in order to _discourage_ the same? Do the ends justify the means?
You can say the characters in these examples (Maddox and Mengele too) merely want to do this to better people, that they are not driven by evil, by selfishness, that they want to do something on a large scale to help their civilization, their society. But is that reality? Does this make them not antagonists, not evil? No, they _are_ monsters. Maelon at least knows this of himself, I'm not sure about the others.
One very relevant Fact that should have been brought up in this episode is the events of an episode from just a few weeks prior in The Schizoid Man. This is very relative precedence, Doctor Graves was able to transfer (or rather copy) his own mind into Data's positronic brain with near total success however at the end he then transferred his mind into the ship's computer banks and immediately lost 'the conscious Human element'. This is clear, definable and absolute proof that the consciousness stored in Data's positronic brain is *not* transferable into a standard or even advanced computer databank and still possess the same qualities.
I've just remembered another genre example to compare Maddox to, In the Books Graceling and Bitterblue there was the character of King Leck, he was an undeniable monster who possessed the power to make people believe any lie he tells them. He was obsessed with his 'hospital' where he genuinely believed he was making great advances in the understanding of the human body with his experiments. However he was a madman with no understanding of science or surgery at all. An excerpt from his diary stated _"My healers say it is blood loss. They say not to conduct so many experiments simultaneously on one person. But tell me, when a woman is lying on the table in her perfection, how am I not to experiment?"_
This is an extreme example obviously but all the other examples were genuine scientists and doctors of the highest qualities, Maddox is not. He cannot grasp the basics without experimentation on an unwilling subject which is 'lesser' than him in rights.
Wow, that was really long and I'm sorry to say this was only _half_ of what I wanted to cover. Heck, this is technically only one point - Maddox' competence and morality. I'll get to the legal issues and minor nitpicking in another jumbo post tomorrow...
At last! I actually think it's interesting Gene felt that way towards lawyers considering there is an episode in TOS where there are clearly prosecutors and defenders.
I never thought of this episode as emotional, but the fact that it elicits, from you, such an emotional reaction, and you're willing to share this part of yourself with your audience, indicates that you're a lovely, and special, human. And yes, despite my often nasty ewe-toob disposition, I'm being totally honest.
the poker scenes always pissed me off because of all the etiquette violations. talking about a hand when youre not involved, string betting, slow rolling. these people would find themselves buried in the deserts of Nevada if they were alive in the 70's
Not to mention that Data says he read all the books about poker and hes never heard of bluffing???
If data is a toaster then is Riker is a Cavil. It cannot be. That one should be Picard :)!
If he meant reeducation that's one thing, but i'm pretty sure that brainwashing as a countermeasure to criminal behavior is more of a black topic. I think we're officially past the grey at that point. That's downright Orwellian.
Two things about the episode spring to mind. One, despite it being one of the finest episodes in Star Trek, i can't help but think it's premise is slightly broken. Data is not property of Starfleet, full stop; that should have been obvious from the get-go. He was not built by Starfleet, was not maintained by Starfleet, and in fact decided to join Starfleet of his own volition. Even in the event that he was not considered his own person with his own individual rights, appropriating and dismantling him would be effectively a crime insofar as he was the property of Doctor Soong.
Two, much as i love this episode, i always felt it's treatment of Riker's plight fell short. First off, his argument against his appointment for the prosecution is dead-on; it's impossible for him to give his all defending a premise he fully believes to be wrong. Second, he's being told to commit his full effort to potentially killing his friend, with the penalty for relenting being the summary ruling to potentially kill said friend. Certainly there had to be some provision in the Starfleet code of Justice that would excuse him from that duty - such an order is not only illogical, it's downright inhuman. I don't normally use this figure of speech, but i literally can't imagine the vise Riker would have been in during most of the episode, and all we get for it is a fading smile.
As for your question, i think it's a bit of all of the above. I think Maddox convinced as few people as he needed to (probably a well-placed Admiral he played space golf with), to authorize a transfer order that probably didn't catch that many eyes; and the people that did notice, figured out the reason and had a problem with it weren't enough - or powerful enough - to grind the gears. Starfleet leadership might have been sweet-talked into it with the promise of an army of Datas, just enough to quietly quell any dissent that might have arisen here and there; maybe threaten to fire or transfer whoever made too much noise. And in the end, Commander Maddox had gotten his toy.
That being said, Maddox did pose a question i found interesting - _If the Enterprise Computer refused a refit, would you respect it's wishes?_
The answer was immediately negative, but i always found myself wondering - What if the Enterprise computer *did* refuse a refit? What if it said, essentially, that it did not *want* a refit? I mean, we're talking about a piece of hardware with the processing power to create and sustain more than one holographic lifeform that are effectively sentient. I think it's overall stranger that the Enterprise does _not_ become self-aware at some point throughout the show (alien viruses aside). Or maybe (and this is kind of horrifying) they're build with intentional restraints that _prevent_ them from forming a concept of self, even when a compartmentalized creation of itself can do so? Would that mean Moriarty is essentially the mind of the Enterprise herself? I mean, he's definitely a part of it.
Ugh, it's complicated stuff. Either way, this was a great episode.
star trek found, salvaged, rescued and reactivated ..him.....they studied him..culd not reproduce him and granted him the right to "serve" them in the attempt to learn more about him and give him the possibility to do so for himself.....until to this episode he is more an experiment than an aknowledged person with any rights
Before watching your rumination this episode is a strike of genius in my book, for TNG along with Darmok, Tapestry and The inner light :)!
Looking at *you*, 2nd Amendment...
Yeah, the right to self-defense - what an antiquated concept, right?
+Space Native yeah I need a nuclear weapon to accomplish this!
If you asked me... i'd tell ya that data's a robot.
@Lorerunner: Do you think Joss Whedon creating only one season of Firefly was a "Star Wars moment", in how Joss wrote the story, and the cast he brought together just...clicked, for an entire season. Do you think it was just dumb luck? Or do you think it was on purpose?
Sometimes a thing is just done right. Nothing is going to be perfect where people are involved and conflicting demands exist if for no other reason than creative differences or budgets or time limits but we can get damn close where nitpicking is the only flaws to pick up. The rest is artistic differences and preference in style. TV a medium rarely well done. This was one such time. Thanks Lore Runner.
it was directly stated that loss of a ship automatically leads to court-martial in the Tsarist Russian navy... do not know whether it's true anywhere today...
Makes so much sense someone with a lawyer background writes an episode with a court hearing at its centre. And for her to write the script as well - well that's a rare opportunity, and well done to her for making the most of it.
The card game that comes later as an analogy, that is a tie-in that works seamlessly this time. These pre-intro scenes don't always work that well but here it's just right.
These old flames - well it seems to me Starfleet is full of sexual liaisons, so no surprise here with Picard.
Maddox is borderline maniacal in several instances - to me he only becomes a Starfleet officer with some redemption right at the end when he loses and deflates, as if waking from some evil virus. Unlike Pulaski, he seems vicious in his objection to Data being sentient. I guess sometimes a villain can be a person who is simply intensely focused to the exclusion of something much more significant.
I like the central court case because it asks some really good questions about sentience and at what point does Data become regarded as a person and not a machine first. I think the other scenes in between also do a great job of discussing this issue.
Riker as defence lawyer. Yes, that change of face as he bring up Data's schematics says it all. I felt Riker made a good case against Data as a person who hated doing it. He shows his conflict in his face after his case is made - and yet at the same time I felt the case was rather as simplistic as it was powerful.
Guinan and Picard scene - shows great thinking through the issues to their logical conclusion.
I liked Data's keepsakes among his belongings, and see Tasha Yar again, even if only as a hologram, and the continuity there - that they had been intimate, the implication that Data valued their intimate time (even if it was induced by a contagion), and even tried to keep that unspoken as agreed. It shows Data is not simply machine but has some concept of sentimentality, some value of memory of friendship.
Great point about the almost throwaway line from Maddox, a Data for every dangerous mission.
A great episode, and one I have remembered for a long time. If this was a happy case of lots of things falling in just the right place at the right time, then there is a God after all.
A superlative episode! ⭐️⭐️⭐️
🚩It’s actually a scary episode in its implications about UFP being a supposedly enlightened society.
If Data had lost, is there a Federation court he could appeal to?
Is Starfleet subservient to the civilian Fed government? (Imho it has to be)
Does Data have the right to vote?
Is he a citizen? (And of where?)
Saying yes to any of these questions make Maddox’s procedure illegal and discriminatory.
🔸Starfleet seems to be NASA (the blue shirts) subsumed into the Navy.
With the crazy admiralty taking over the crazier diplomatic corps.
Too often we see Starfleet acting as FedGov itself. Even ruling over it in civilian matters, like forcing a citizen to accept themselves as property.
The coup the DS9 episodes Homefront and Paradise Lost only made then explicit what was already almost implicit.
In Trek, politicians and civil servants are inept. Civilians are just support.
🔹I wish there was a non-Starfleet Trek series. And I wish Starfleet/Science was separate from Starfleet/Navy. To the point that the blue shirts (including engineers!) had academic rather than military ranks. People like Deanna, Crusher, Wesley, Barclay, Ezri, B’Elanna… shouldn’t have to submit to a military lifestyle to do science and exploration. As a pacifist I reject it.
🔹Why does Starfleet seem to act like the real government?
Because the technocratic Vulcans and the authoritarian Andorians and Tellarites demanded it; the oligarchical Betazoids and Trill quite happy with it.
🇺🇳It’s people like Picard, Sisko, and Louvois too thankfully, who will prevent the UFP to become an authoritarian or military state with docile androids and holograms.
Hopefully stop the dreams of “safety” and “efficiency” of people like Maddox, Satie and Leighton.
I find it interesting that this very issue of a race of disposable people is visited again in Voyager. What's I find even more interesting is that the EMH Mark 1s are assigned very menial tasks. Tasks often associated with disposable people. How did this ruling not apply to them?
Edit: Omg, you mentioned the Mark 1s 👍👍
24:30: Socrates also did not flee. Nick :-)
Great rumination, I've been enjoying watching lots of them for TNG. This is one of my favorite episodes and you really nailed it. Also, after having watched this recently, and also seeing playthroughs of Detroit: Become Human on PS4, that is also, IMO, a brilliant sci-fi game about the same kinds of questions on how the idea of a "race" of androids would affect things (Yes, it is definitely not the first, but I thought it was very well done)
Just realized he did play it, it's in the Stream Archives channel...whoops
I did a binge of TNG for about a month or 2 ago now, and this is one of my favourite episodes, but there was always one thing that bugged me.
Data was built privately, not in, or for the Federation. He signed up and was accepted. This lawsuit would end in 2 ways as I see it. Either he's a property, and has no right to his own agency, making his enrollment invalid and void. He'd be the property of Dr Soong. Not the federation. His career would be nullified. Either that, or his enrollment is valid, and he has the right to his own agency.
Either way, he can't be the property of the federation.
That's how I see it anyway.
This is why I think the scenario in VOY is more pivotal, where the Doctor is suing for the rights to his own holo-novel.
It's inferior in execution, but I see the legality of it being far more grey in that case.
they salvaged (found) him.....navy and things you find...thoose laws can be old and strict^^
I agree that it's a brilliant episode, I love the questions it poses, and the way it made me think. However, there's one point that has kept nagging at me ever since I saw this episode for the very first time. How does it make sense for the question of Data's personhood to come up now. At this point, Data has been in Starfleet for 20-ish years, give or take. How the hell does someone go through the Academy and decades as an officer as a possible non-person? I would think the question of his personhood would have been settled when he got accepted into Starfleet Academy.
You thought wrong
@@stevencoardvenice Would you care to elaborate? How the hell do you join the military without being legally a person?
a law from EARLY 21st century? so that law would be from PRE first contact with the vulcans.
Thanks for doing this. Excellent.
Paused at 14:00 I think better wording is that he's the antagonist but not a villain.
Maddox is not as noble in his scientific pursuit as one might think. Maddox knowing how little he understands Data basic systems, and he said as such to Data, when asked if Maddox is capable of manipulating neural function in a posotronic brain, which Maddox admits he can't but hes sure he will discover how to when he studies Data. Maddox is willing to risk destroying Data in order to determine how Data works. Maddox also admitted that upon taking possession of Data he would wipe Datas core memory, why? So that Maddox can prevent Datas return to his former life. To Maddox Data is a tool, Tools are meant to be used.
Not a nice guy is David Maddox...
34:30. A lot of our laws, that are referenced by lawyers and judges, are from at least 200 years ago. They are still valid... they might need to be updated, but are still valid. Why can't that be the same in the Star Trek universe?
They want more Datas. Recall Data's daughter.
Brilliant as always. Thanks for this!
I normally watch along with these but when I saw this was next I had to watch ahead. Such a great episode, I ever don't mind the scene with Picard and Louvois at the beginning, I just think of it as playful banter between 2 ex's that has since moved on and while they didn't part on best terms they're mostly able to put it behind them.
Defining the value of, say, a song is not as difficult as you're presenting it here. You could hook someone up to an enceophalograph or something, and measure the way their brain-state is altered by a specific pattern of musical harmonics and rhythms and so forth, and ultimately prove that their mind is being nourished and sustained by music much the way their body is nourished and sustained by food, that one song has a more powerful effect on a particular brain than another, that a particular brain responds to one song better than another brain does - quantifying it is far from impossible. In my own life, I've made something of a science of figuring out which music has the most potent effect on me, and have very much come to regard certain songs as effectively tools for improving my own life. Similar analysis could apply to books, movies, TV shows, even CZcams videos, if I wanted to put in that kind of effort. It would absolutely be possible to provide measures of utility for such things, if you were up to the level of study required to prove that, say, 60% of workers will do their job 14% faster if they can hear "The Name of the Game" by the Crystal Method playing while they work, compared to if they work amid nothing but normal background noise. You could prove exactly what that song is worth compared to other songs, if you were so inclined.
Well, according to the new Picard series, Starfleet did end up making synthetics. I haven't seen the show yet, but based on the clips I've seen, something went wrong and all synthetics were declared illegal and to be deactivated. I wonder if that included The Doctor.
32:30 Aww, @Lorerunner, don't be so hard on yourself! (I assume you're joking, but in case you're not, have a digital hug.)
Lots of legal and procedural issues, but I still love this episode.
As much as I love this episode, I'm curious how this episode would have been concluded in a show with a less idealistic story structure (i.e. B5, DS9, etc). Could Sheridan have convinced a judge from EarthGov in 2259 that Data (assuming Data were to exist in the B5 universe) is not property? What would Sheridan do if the case was lost and how would it differ from Picard, given both have a tendency toward being lawful good?
Great Rumination on a great episode. Would love to see you do 'Data's Day' if you haven't already. Also, I know it just came out and it will be like a few years, but I can't wait to see you go over POE2Deadfire.
I think it odd that the writer of this episode, Snodgrass, says she didn't like the episode where Data creates his daughter, L'al. It seems the obvious 2nd act of this episode.
When Riker turns Data off, wow. I gulp every time.