Blacksmithing - making a small crucible
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2018
- In this video, I try to make a small crucible for casting copper.
website: www.gstongs.com
email: glen03@earthlink.net
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Found a great source of wild clay and am thinking about making a crucible with it. You've got my gears turning, thanks for posting!
Glen, your mixtures seemed to be too wet. You only need enough water to moisten to the point that when squeezed in your hand, it will stay in one lump. It should not be pourable. Try a paper cup. Press in the floor first, then cut up an Al beverage can and make a circular form using tape on the inside of the circular form. Then press the walls in using a dowel or something to lightly tamp it down around the form. Using the taped Al and paper cup makes it easy to extract. Or, just use a thick walled steel cup (piece of pipe with bottom welded on) to melt the copper. I really like your experimentation videos. Thanks, Jerry
Exactly, the more water you use the weaker the grout.
Thanks for the good info. So many people had good advice to give on this subject. I took some advice, did some more experimenting, failed miserably, but eventually had reasonable success.
As someone who’s tried to mix mortar for the first time in his life, I can confirm that if you use way too much water, you basically just have wet sand... 😅
Very interesting. I liked following your thinking. Couple of things - plaster will work for a single firing. Similar to what is done with lost wax casting. For a reusable crucible, not a good product. Forget using sand. You aren't making cement; you are making a ceramic. Smooth interior is preferable. Firebrick is a good idea. Clay can be harvested from the nearest stream, or you can use some old original cat litter. It was clay and would be quite usable here. Buy or make a ball mill - the kind they polish rocks with. Let the ingredients tumble for a few hours. You will end up with a very fine powder, almost like talc. This is what you want. All forms need to be surface sealed and treated with a release agent. Too much moisture is just as much a problem as too little, but even more important is slowly drying. Keep covered with a damp cloth, and keep the cloth moist. 3 to 7 days. Then fire it. Ceramics need to cool down slowly from the initial firing. Several hours of gradual decreasing temperature. Should be fine after that.
Forget using steel or cast iron. You will burn a hole in these very quickly.
And while it is certainly easier to just buy a crucible, I love seeing people trying to relearn old skills.
Keep up the good work.
Bentonite clay (kitty litter) will probably make a better crucible, and you will need some of it anyway if you decide to make greensand for moulds. I also think you may have used too much water. If you decide to use this mixture (or a similar one) again, try to use the absolute minimum amount of water you can. If you can get ahold of some fireclay, mixed with grog (broken & ground pottery or firebrick), you should be able to produce a much better crucible.
The ball mill is a good idea, but I can't see you making enough to make it worthwhile to buy one. I think a small mill could be fabricobbled from a plastic coffee can (like this one: www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-20962/Coffee-Supplies/Folgers-Regular-Classic-Roast-Coffee one with the built-in handle) and a few bits of steel scrap (something under an inch square). Use a large rubber band and an electric drill to rotate it.
Kirk, Excellent information. My trials with this have shown me that buying a proper crucible may be the way to go for someone like myself. I was unsure if I should pulverize the ingredients to finer powder or leave them in a larger size... I'm comfortable doing these experiments on this small scale but if any larger, and I think molten metal in a suspect crucible would make me uneasy. Thanks for watching and taking the time to explain in such detail. Glen
I like the fact you’re not afraid to show your failures. I’m really looking forward to where you’re going with this. Nice job Glen.
Check my next video post and you'll see failure at its finest! But all the failure and info. gained led to some modest success. Thanks.
Glen GS Tongs at least you can find humour in your failures, learn from them and use that knowledge to improve and move on. Then you upload the video so everyone can watch and learn which is pretty awesome. Thanks again for posting this Glen. I find your videos very interesting. Looking forward to your next one.
plaster of paris will serve as better binder than portland cement, beside you can pull it off the mold before it completely dry, so risk of mold destruction can be avoided.. also try to use talcum powder as source of alumina and magnesia, its much cheaper than crushed firebrick, and last use waterglass (sodium silicate/ diluted sodium) as the high temp glue.. all this work fine if you can't acces graphite and bentonite to make crucible
wahyu...sorry to ask some question..are from Indonesia?
I will try this
But I can get a graphit crucible for 250 zar
Nice to watch the thought process, thanks for bringing us along for the ride on your learning curve 😁👍🤘
I sometimes think putting my thought process on video might not be the best idea! But the failures I've had with this have given me some insight that has led to some limited success. Thanks for your support.
Total respect for the experimentation. Well done on your efforts.
You know, that by taking a dense, non insulating fire brick (from a wood stove liner) and cutting a pocket in it will work. Also drill a couple of holes from side to side on either side of the crucible to insert rods to use as removable handles. Sorry it took me so long to watch this video. Keep up the good work. Your experimenting has saved me a lot of time and frustration.
Just finished my first crucible only I made mine out of stone,it works awesome and holds hear very well. No noticable damage from the firing and I got it red hot!
Excellent! Hi Glenn.
Dry clay. Unfired.
With your old red clay brick or fire brick crushed.
Alittle water.
Make small Pinch pot.
Cement is not as 'temperature- safe" as real ceramic aka high fire ceramic clays. Say 3000f.
Copper melts at 2000f.
Cement is not a ceramic.
Love this new direction you are taking us!
Thank you
I really appreciate all the excellent advice folks like yourself are giving. There's tons of relevant info. on this just in the comment section here alone thanks to people like you.
Pretty cool Glen, you’re a DIY scientist man. You try,fail,try,fail, and then succeed! Love it man!
Or I'm a DIY fool! But my failures on this have taught me something and led to some reasonable success (see my next video). Thanks for your support. Glen
Thanks for posting this Glen and many thanks to the others who added their thoughts. Like you I like experimenting and figuring things out for myself - even if it is far more practical just to purchase the commercial product :-) Cheers! Hank
Hank, Thanks for watching and for your support. Some of us just want to see what we can do but buying a proper crucible would have made things easier however I wouldn't have learned anything via trying and through the great comments. Thanks. Glen
That was so educational Glenn, I just love your experimental approach using the stuff that most of us can get our hands on. Cheers!
Dav, Yes, an education in what to not do! I will take this a step further in my next video. Thanks.
Interesting, would have bet my arse it would fail but you proved my wrong! Good job Glen!
Try vermiculite, a traditional refractory material and available at garden supply stores. Water glass (sodium silicate) and sand is
also used at high temperatures as a matrix. These 3 together might work . . . maybe.
Interesting video Glenn. Look forward to your next attempts. Thanks for the video.
Ron, My next few attempts also went awry but the info. gained led me to some success. Thanks.
White stoneware clay powder with high alumina content, Graphite powder, Crushed up flint or other high temp stoneware ceramic mixed in, and then silica carbide powder.. mix em into a clay rather, form it and fire it - slowly...
Cement will always break down under high heat.. thus you rarely find cement in commercial grade lining materials.
Excellent and an Honest job....you sir really are a Grandmaster.
Adil, Honest, sure. Excellent, that remains to be seen! But I appreciate your support. Thanks for watching. Glen
I'm binge watching today, great videos
I can see that. Glad you are watching...
Fan for life. Thank you Glen
I really appreciate your support. Thanks.
Wonder If "graphite pencil as a composit" will it work to make graphite crucible mold
Just finished my first crucible only I made mine out of stone,it works awesome and holds hear very well. No noticable damage from the firing and I got it red hot! It the ancient method but my crucibles will outlast modern ones by a billion years or so. Lol
Hi Glenn!still loving my tongs and touchmark! BTW cheap cat litter is pure bentonite clay and easily dissolves in water.many use this in home made refractory cement
Flow Wizardz that’s great advice. You have to get the cheapest stuff that is unscented. Also, you may be adding too much water to your mixture. Water makes refractory and concrete weak. It should be thicker and require you to tap out air bubbles aggressively.
Lou L also adding crushed perlite (crush it yourself) from most gardening supply stores may help. And graphite can be collected from crushed pencil lead.
Flow Wizardz I like the way you think. You are making me want to try this. But, I’ll likely take the easy path and buy kast-o-lite 30.
This is very good information. I'm blown away by all of the great advice in the comments on this video. Thanks.
Nice attempt! Look forward to your next trial.
Marc, I will post my next attempt soon. Thanks.
Im looking for a crucible for case hardening rail road spike knives. Having trouble find one of proper dimensions.
Also, Glen the carved out wood stove firebrick will catch the flux when welding thus preserving your forge liner.
great job, I love the creativity and willingness to try things for yourself. we share that child-like curiosity. awesome! roger
Roger, Thanks for watching and for your support. Glen
I like your try and error method 👍
Commercial crucibles are made from clay. There is no cement in them. Cementation occurs when the crucible is baked or fired at high temperatures. Crucibles are more of a ceramic like porcelain.
What is the temperature needed to dry and cook a graphite crucible?
I never thought about it being the MacGyver method using whatever we had lying around, but that is a good analogy. that deep in the back of my head probably had influence on some of the projects my friend and I have done over the last coupe of years. Interesting project you have going on as well. Pretty nice to see.
I sometimes like to just go at it - not prepare too much or invest too much at first. Then, if things don't work, I'll investigate further and get the things necessary to make it work. But there always seems to be a MacGyver method that will at least work temporarily. Thanks for watching and commenting. Glen
If you were willing to sacrifice a cup just leave everything together and put it in your forge.
Glen wrap your word or what ever you are going to use for the void with some plastic wrap of some kind this way you can pull out the wood very good easy and burn out the plastic if it stays. Great video as always. Martin
Martin, Thanks for the good advice. I can be stubborn at times but so many people gave good advice on this one.
When using concrete and metal. If you dont want the metal to stick to the concrete. We used a method when I was making sewer lines. Get used motor oil and mix some diesel fuel with it (3 parts oil, 1 part diesel). Dip the metal into this mixture (whatever parts will be touching the concrete) and the metal can slide out when its dry.
Also may be a good idea to let it cure for 12 to 24 hours. Just to make sure the concrete isnt moist at the end
Magnesium and plaster for a crucible. Add steel wool for longer use?
hi, sincerely talking was this time resisting over time or how much can they resist_=?
You should use castable refractory cement with firebrick as a stretcher.
a very interesting experiment, certainly useful, tnx 👍
Hey, Thank you sincerely for giving me an idea Sir to save income & time !
For the second crucible i recommend you let it dry for at least 2 days
So, Crushed up clay no sand & your fire brick crushed up mix worked ? Is that not the second one it's clay & concrete ? I know that concrete dissolve into powder from water, but I'm super curious to see Clay & fire brick mix alone to see if that will make a paste someday, maybe I'll experiment I hope I don't drastically mess up !.....
Your problem is your binding agent. Cement is primarily made from lime. Lime when heated to high heat breaks down. Actually if you put a lime stone in a fire and then pour water over it after it has cooled it will break apart just like your third try did. It is actually how cement is made. A sodium silicate mixture as your binding agent would work much better. To make sodium silicate you need water, 100% lye (stump remover), and silica gel (found in desicate packs. Check at your local motorcycle dealer they sometimes have big packs of them from the shipping process.) If you search Google you should be able to find a recipe. Mix that in place of water with something like your fire brick and it should work you could also try perlite (garden stores carry it.), Or clay instead of fire brick.
That is very good and useful information. I will attempt some of the mixtures suggested in comments like yours. And your suggestion about the binding agent was especially useful. Thanks for watching and for taking the time to comment in detail. Glen
Hello how is my friend a question do you have an idea about making Borex powder fusion aid gold and copper and thank you ❤️
Nice job my guy
A tip is dry the cement very slowly, for it to add a little bit sugar in the water to mix with cement. Increase the heat resistance when the cement dry slowly.
Thank you Glen. I love your videos. You are in my opinion one of the better youtube smiths. Would you mind posting in the comments the ingredients, ratios and specific steps you used for the successful crucible, along with any comments on what you might do differently? -Vikingsmith, Yakima, WA, USA
I appreciate your kind words. I wouldn't mind at all posting the specs on a successful crucible - if I ever make a successful crucible! I continued with this, failed miserably, but eventually had some success (see my next video). If I get a DIY crucible formula that I think works well, I will let you know. Thanks. Glen
Peace be upon you, Professor. Is it possible to make a pot of refracti? I want an effective recipe. Thank you very much
Hi, I'm sorry but I don't have a reliable recipe to make a refractory pot (crucible). Many of the people who commented gave good suggestions. I just wanted to experiment with this... Thanks and good luck.
We can casting iron or only copper?
Will Thai work or not " psh idk! " Lmao loved it being as real as possible! Definitely Clicked subscribed lmfao
Whatever you used to make your own spray and Pam or coated in diesel fuel what they call form release that keeps the concrete or whatever else you're using your bowl from sticking
هل تتحمل درجة حرارة لتذويب الحديد وهي حوالي ٢١٠٠درجة
Just curious if all I have is three holed clay brick / I assume it's called red clay fire brick, if I crash that up with my hammer, will that make a paste with water alone that's capable of holding my bricks together for forging ????
I'm learning & do not know anything about this stuff....
Those red three hole bricks aren’t the same thing as fire bricks, as to the rest, I’m trying to learn myself.
I learned from personal experience that red brick does not hold up to high heats associated with forging. Around 2000 deg F, they start spalling so I would assume they would not work.
Only fire clay can put all together to be strong, but if you can get a fire clay, crushed fire bricks are already heated and will not be enough strong bounds and it will shrink, regular clay also is not good because it melts about 900 deegres C. So if you can get a fire clay or refactory cement that has temp resistance over 1500 deegres C you can success
I've not finished the video yet. However I think instead of sand I would use something with a higher flashpoint. Like glass, glass is a superheated form of fine grain sand. So it's flashpoint is understandably higher, also I wouldn't worry about removing the crucible from the cup at all. If it wants to separate it's going to during the heat treatment directly after the casting of the crucible. Remember to allow it to cool gradually. Don't let it lose temperature too quickly... Anyway I don't know a damn thing about the chemistry of a crucible but I do fully understand thermo dynamics. You really need a gas oven to do this. Also if you aerated the concrete it becomes less likely to crack.
try changing the cement to Calcium dioxide and add a little bit of sugar, here in South-Brazil when we do clay ovens or something like that we add sugar in the composition of the clay, in order to avoid cracks
That's a very interesting idea. I appreciate you watching and sharing that information. Thanks. Glen
how much sugar in 100 grams clay ze ive been working pottery but its always fall apart or cracking when heat it
You should not use regular cement for a crucible, it has too much moisture in it. It also soaks up water. The problems begin when you heat it up. The regular cement will explode if there is any moisture in it when it is heated.
I have an idea: what if you blend the firebrick powder with something like clay? Gray clay like from a creek bed?
A couple of quick thoughts, Portland cement useless for heat better to use high alumina cement. No sand. Mixture way too wet needs to be just damp enough to pack into place. Allow some (many) days for cure - keep damp for that time. Dry slowly before firing. Don't use wooden formers as they expand with moisture and can crack part use plastic instead. But my main suggestion is go out and buy a proper clay/graphite crucible they are not that expensive...... Martin
Failure is the best teacher.
Petroleum jelly or talc is a good mold release.
Try plaster of paris instead of cement.
Thank you for sharing.
Any updates after 4 years?
No update - I mostly abandoned this but when I have time, will revisit and see what I can do differently. Thanks for watching.
The wood needs to soak to expand beforehand, and a vasilene release is a good idea.
Your projects are interesting, thank you for the time you take to make these videos. I like your anvil, and have seen them elsewhere but always in clips, never in "person." Where did you get it please, and what was the cost? Thanks again.
Bradley, I don't mind experimenting and going out of my comfort zone sometimes. My block style anvils are my own designs which I had made here in Taiwan. The prices depend on which anvil but in general , these small anvils cost me around $400 each. Thanks for watching.
If using wood dowels, use Vaseline to coat wood. May help. Never done it before.
Always use sprat cooking oil to stop sticking. Tin sheds, cement wipes off.
Double the cement.
Amazing
Amazing that this crucible even worked once! Thanks for watching. Glen
Grease the cup and use a greased tapered piece of dowel. Also, take the dowel out as soon as you can. The cenment mixture will shrink against the wood and crack.
3 likes if I could. I watched it 3 times in a row. Now I’m gonna try it. Thanks!
curing cement creates heat and expands a bit, But the Wood! Expands no dought in a warm and wet environment?
Bart, I've learned a lot by trying this and from many of the comments. Next time around, I should be better prepared. Thanks for watching. Glen
What about using some plaster of paris, I have used it making some refractory, works pretty good??
Uh... no it doesn't.
Len, Some others have said the same thing. I think it would work perfectly fine depending on what and how long you need the crucible for. Thanks.
Glen GS Tongs Plaster of Paris holds what's called bound water. It can explode if you pour hot metal in it. Dont risk it. Leave plaster of Paris to idiot's like the king of random bullshit.
You have to preheat it in the regular oven for a few hours before you introduce it to a high heat
I think you need to apply some pressure to compress the crucible during the drying process, so it compress the compound... Also, instead of cement, try putting graphite into the mixture, along with the ceramic clay. Just a thought
There are many aspects of this I need to improve. And your suggestions are very good. Thanks.
You can grind granite finely and mix it in equal quantities with cement or plaster. Try and see
Definitely subscribed
Part of the problem is that the mixture is too wet. I can't tell from the video, but it looks like the right consistency @ 10:02...before you added more water.
1.) If there's too much moisture then the casting will take longer to cure before you can risk firing it. 2.) When you place what you want for an inner diameter, make sure the crucible as a whole will have at least 1/2 inch wall thickness.
{Basically just figure how tall and wide you have room for in the furnace, then use a wood dowel to where it would give you the target wall thickness.}
3.) Before you leave it to cure, lightly tap the sides of the container to settle the mixture, and bring whatever bubbles there may be to the top.
Just a quick suggestion on materials.
1/4 part Quickcrete, 1/4 part Firebrick and 1/2 part clumping type cat litter (finely crushed)...ie: consistency just slightly coarser than powdered sugar. The clumping kind is important because it will give you the sand/clay content in roughly equal amounts.
Plaster works to an extent but will only hold up for a few casting cycles, before the Crucible fails and you need to make a replacement.
**Before ppl start giggling about using kitty litter, I use it on it's own/sometimes mixed with powdered aluminum (for nosecone and multi-stage delays) as plugs for model rocket engines/fireworks and it holds up very well to heat.
Thanks for the good info. You're right, it was definitely too wet and I was definitely too impatient. The mixtures you suggest are excellent and I will give one or two of these a go. I had decent success with using just a steel vessel but I can see that that wouldn't be suitable long term. Thanks again for taking the time to explain with such clarity. Glen
No problem whatsoever. Happy to help. I might as well help ppl with what I do know, and then watch what they make with it. :)
Is it ordinary cement
You have to crush the fabric to 2 to3 kind of material one parts have to be powder another parts have to be on the rough and the third parts have to be rougher and you must add sugar powder and citric acid to the mix that makes it combined together that’s how they make the five bricks
So if you only want to melt copper , I suggest you can use sardines can as your crucible , don't burden yourself
Melt borax inside the crucible. You need it all over the inside. That way the molten metal won't stick👍
You only have to do it once😊
Fire brick is a bad conductor of heat wasting gas, Use clay 40% and Graphite 60% powder and sodium silicate as binder. best part of it, it`s recyclable, play with recipe, like your work man.
It seems I learn most things the hard way. Comments like yours have taught me a lot about crucibles, what works and what does not. Thanks.
if the heat come from down but if it come frome up is perfect and resistent
Cement hold in liquid and allows cracks so use plaster
Cement needs to setup for 30 days and to get best strength keep it wet! Wood does absorb water causing cement to split! Because cement has a adhesive bond and can't be disturbed or dropped on counter to hard! Best to Ya!
Thanks for the good information; for watching and sharing. Glen
when we sement something after it started hardening we put a water hose on it and keep it wet for 2 or 3 days,if u do that your sement will be like steel,more water the better results you get.in my house any part of the walls that i forgot to give water is like sand and u can carve it with your fingers.sorry for my poor english i hope i was a little help to some people
Hello Glen, I had an idea that may work. Get a chunk of raw clay and try to form it to a shape of the crucible, then fire it in your forge. Fired clay things like a brick can withstand serious heat if water doesn't get trapped inside the clay. I think for melting copper it will be fine.
This is exactly what I tried next (see my next video). I still failed miserably but gained some good insight and was able to have reasonably success in the end. Thanks for sharing.
Maybe a ball-mill will powder it up fine enough to make a crucible.
Trail and error the best way to learn.
Formulas fire brick clay and graphite and cilica carbide. Older peeps just use fire clay or red clay and grapgite with no sand
?? Can you take a fire brick and wallow it out; then season it with flux and use it to smelt? If someone knows please let me know! Thank you in advance.
The way the copper stuck to my forge bottom… make sure you pour it, don’t let it harden in your firebrick.
Smelt? You only smelt Rock ore. Melt gold.
For melting copper I use stainless I made a cup from 50mm pipe 3mm wall about 50mm deep and it works perfectly and forever reusable
Stainless it's good for gold
Thank you sir
You might try luting. In the 18th century and before, poor people made livings recycling, and one of the things gathered was bone. The bones were calcined to make luting, which was a sort of cement used in furnaces. It is possible that a luting/clay mixture might work for this. I just tried looking it up, but the word has been taken over by dentistry for other putty-like materials for dental procedures. Books of 19th century industrial recipes might have it.
This is very interesting and good information. I believe this old bone mixture was successfully used for a long time. I will investigate it and see if that might be possibility for me. Thanks for watching and sharing. Glen
In place of the Portland cement, I think. Luting was not the main component, but a binding/gluing agent. Calcining the bones is something you can do in your forge, but if it is indoors, you might not care for the smell.
Will this work for casting metal , steel, titanium, and gold?
not steel or titanium. gold maybe.
@@HMDickson Because gold is a weaker metal
@@raghavsood6156 yeah most furnaces cant even get titanium glowing sooooo yeah not at all
Never use cement in high temp. Reasonably got solution for crucibles would be -clay, fire brick and liquid glass stil won't gonna last long but for small crucibles its quite good.
I've leaned a lot from this process and from those who have constructively commented. Thanks for watching. Glen
Why not just cut the fire brick to the shape of a crucible
👍 idea
Great idea!!Hollow out the fire brick!!
@@Fylars grinding disk
SO EXCITING
Think about crushing up some pencil lead (graphite) and add to the mix
They soak the graphite in wax
edit: the wax would burn off during firing and break the crucible
The center of torch battery is all graphite
I hate to be a party pooper but why didn't you just use a masonry bit to drill a hole in the brick as deep as you need, then trim it with a masonry blade to the size you need.
Plastic mold. 3 parts of sand, 1 part of cement. Mix it up. Do not pulverize the fire brick, little rocks maybe, put them with cement and sand. Add water and put on mold. Don't use the wood, use a piece steel (pubricate wuth vaseline). When it is a little hard spray water every one hour. At the other day open the mold and spray with water a couple of times. Let dry completely. Concrete takes up to 2 weeks to dry in that size. Then try it out
Lizandro, Thanks for the very useful information. I tried pulverizing the fire brick to a fine powder but I was also thinking that keeping it in a larger size might be better. I'll give that a try for sure. Thanks for watching and sharing. Glen
Glen GS Tongs thank you for reading me, haha
The Melting point of copper is 1,085 °C the melting point of mild steel is 1350oC-1530oC. Wouldn't a steel ladle suffice for this?
No it won’t . The heat in a furnace is unevenly distributed so some areas hotter and some areas lower than the Melting point of steel . Furthermore . Unless u had a fancy electric furnace with accurate temperature control than the ladle will melt . It not warp horribly . And also stick to the copper
Was basically gonna say what that guy said. From personal experience it’s difficult to maintain a even and consistent temp for steel
If you had a ball mill, you could grind all the ingredients into a super fine powder, and they could homogenize better and get a better bond. Might want to increase the ratio of clay, too.
This is good advice. I tried all sorts of ways and mostly failed. But eventually I was able to have limited success and now feel like I've gained some insight. All the comments I received on this one are great. To be continued... Thanks.
Check ur cement grade as well..add lime
Waxing the FORM woulda changed things "going south"...
.... my backseat perspective flashed me. I am merely a messenger.
My past endeavors in crucible/kiln werks has SODIUM SILCATE compounds.