the coquettification of catholicism
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
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➤ SOURCES
How Catholic Art Saved the Faith, Elizabeth Lev (2018)
The Story of Art, E. H. Gombrich (1950)
Ecclesiastical Dress, Elisha P. Renne from The Berg Fashion Companion (2010)
Catwalk Catholicism, David Inglis (2019)
Religion in Vogue: Christianity and Fashion in America, Lynn S. Neal (2019)
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web.archive.org/web/201303160...
journal.media-culture.org.au/...
www.theguardian.com/fashion/f...
www.teenvogue.com/gallery/pop...
qz.com/1005895/pope-franciss-...
www.today.it/gossip/vip/sarto...
kafkaesqueblog.com/2015/09/15...
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www.artsy.net/article/artsy-e...
www.theguardian.com/fashion/2...
www.varsity.co.uk/fashion/22206
www.refinery29.com/en-us/2018...
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www.teenink.com/opinion/pop_c...
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0:00 - intro
3:01 - the pope's fashion
9:25 - aesthetics of the church
14:25 - heavenly bodies exhibit
18:35 - catholicism goes alternative
29:16 - is this okay? - Zábava
On the Nun costume thing- I am not catholic or anything but it rubs me the wrong way to see women who are specifically intending to NOT be sexualised... being sexualised. It sort of reminds me of the whole Hijabi woman fetish discourse that was going on- if a group of women do not want that kind of attention, it should ALWAYS be respected! Even if you disagree with the institution itself
yep, and real nuns have always been the victims of distasteful jokes about what's underneath and the fact they are all virgins.
I came down here to say the same thing. I find it really weird and kinda gross to fetishize people who make a point of refusing sex regardless of the reason. Like not just nuns but priests as well. Its personally a huge squick for me.
I agree, I think it's disrespectful to fetishize women who specifically eschew sexuality, but that's exactly the appeal. Taboo is a core component of fetishization.
no literally, i’m not christian anymore i have my valid reasons for being uneasy with the catholic church(considering it’s history with indigenous north americans and the fact that the catholic church ran the residential schools in collaboration with the government) but historically becoming a nun was a socially acceptable escape for asexual or gay afab folks in largely patriarchal societies who expected every afab person get married and have as many kids as possible and was their safe haven. so sexualizing especially through the male gaze a safe space historically for queer femmes is not only distasteful and uncomfortable it’s really disgusting. when i was still practicing the christian religion i fantasized about becoming a nun just so i could be openly aroace and tokophobic without anyone questioning me(except for the fact depending on your parish birth control isn’t allowed and that’s kind of problematic for someone like me who has endometriosis). it’s just yucky all around
Hijab women still have an active sex life. Just like Amish women. Nuns don't .
as a latina it is so weird to see that in america, catholiscism is considered an elitist or an intelectual religion, when here in brazil you could enter a house without running water but still find a holy mary, or a jesus portrait or a cross.
well it is a culture that trickled down to us through colonization… catholicism is hailed in the US and seen as commonplace in latin america for the same reasons spanish is resented by right wingers in the US but hailed in spain
Religião é quase inteiramente sobre crer, eu também sou brasileiro e cresci com uma vó que é analfabeta mas nunca deixou de acreditar na sua Religião. É sobre ter a fé, não precisa ser tão complicado. Mas por exemplo um padre que precisa estudar a teologia é extremamente necessário e uma situação totalmente diferente, depende do contexto. eu gosto muito de estudar o catolicismo e a bíblia no geral, e sempre achei muito lindo a devoção das pessoas sobre suas religiões, não precisa estudar a fundo nem nada, só se tiver a curiosidade : )
I don't think the majority of Americans think Catholicism is for the elite, but it's definitely how it seems on social media. Social media is a small but loud part of society, and of the people that even use social media, there is an even smaller group of people that are creating content that drives these kinds of 'trends'. It's easy to think "Americans believe this or that" when the only lens is the internet, but when i stop and look around me, social media rarely reflects what I see.
@@csquared8215 oh absolutely! it's just weird for me even if its a small group, since here in latin america catholicism is such a phenomenon among lower classes and upper classes all the same
É tão bom encontrar brasileiros em vídeos gringos, me sinto menos sozinha :)
In Catholicism, only priests can hear confessions. If you're not an ordained Catholic priest, you can't do 'confession readings' (which btw, I have never heard that expression. it sounds like they're trying to mix the popularity of Tarot into a marketing gimmicky term). So, I don't know who this girl who is selling that is, but if she is a Catholic she is committing a grave sin in trying to impersonate the role of a priest (and for money). Really wicked.
Not to mention that tarots & horoscopes are actually forbidden in Catholic Christianity (even if you know someone who identifies as Catholic and follows horoscopes "religiously" that doesn't disprove the actual teaching)
As a fellow Catholic, I was thinking the same thing.
I'm also a Catholic and was about to point this out myself. They'll give her the electric pew. 💀
Yeah, what the hell is a "confession reading"?
Not just that but it is sacrilegious to buy confessions. Sacraments can't be bought or they become void
I’m currently on the path to becoming a nun and living a monastic life. I’m SICK of the scary movies, over sexualization, and jokes that are constantly being made about them. They’re some of the loveliest people I’ve ever met and will always be respected in my book. Leave them alone!!
Girl same, as a Christian & veilier, I watched the movie 'Cabrini' in theaters as soon as I could. We BARELY have any recent Nun movies painting them as (non demonic) determined 3 dimensional women. I also love that it released around the time of 'The First Omen' (ANOTHER "Demonic Nun" movie) to sort of counteract this blasphemy...Also mina don't forget the growing amount of Orthodox Americans!
@@Joy-ne8ve that’s so sad. Religious horror films shouldn’t even be allowed. I recently told a friend and all she said was “Is this the conjuring..?” It’s a damn shame. Most people will always see them as something scary or something to sexualize.
Same here my Christian friend literally thought we did exorcisms every Sunday until she joined me in Holy Mass & observed it.
Ugh so true. It’s so distasteful. There are so many scary nun movies and every sister I’ve ever met has made me want to cry because they’re so joyful and good. Prayers for your journey in discerning your vocation!!🤍
it's fine if you want to throw your life away and vegetate away, not contributing to society in any valid way at all and never expanding your weak mind beyond studying jesus for the 400th time. people have a right to judge, but as long as the government isn't paying for nuns i wouldn't make any comments.
my new aesthetic/style is now “clothes that are pretty”
Wait me too! I don't have the time or energy at this point in my life to have an aesthetic. Haha.
i jus call my sense in fashion "mecore" lmao
I went deep down the Kibbe/Kitchener rabbit hole last year and after deliberating over every detail of an outfit down to the chain my necklace was made of, I came to the same conclusion. There's no scientifically perfect look for a person 😅
I now like ‘dopamine dressing’ - if it brings you joy, wear it! If u feel physically good/comfortable in it, wear it. Works for my adhd brain too :)
"The clothes I like"
i pray for the end of “everything-core”
Same
Real the worst is when they take stuff that already exist and still feel the need to add a -core. it feels like a cheap remake of the og style/subculture and they don’t do research most of the time so they end up spreading misinfo.
For realll. Clean girl is the one that drives me crazy the most. 🥲🥲
This is so fuckin nihilistcore I love it
you mean *everything “-core”
I am a practicing Catholic who creates Catholic art for a living and could probably write a ten-page essay about my specific feelings on this subject, but I won't. I will just say that overwhelmingly, there is so much superficiality in this aesthetic-chasing. If consumers would pour as much time and energy into researching the stories and the histories behind the "aesthetics" (literally any of them, not just the one spoken about here) their lives would be so much richer than they are simply by draping themselves and their homes in a particular style and then wandering aimlessly to the next trend. Life is so much more than an aesthetic. As an artist, I can speak to the importance of beauty and aesthetics, of course, but those things are only important because there is meaning in it beyond garnering attention for the consumer. Build your life on something greater! If something grabs your attention, read a freaking book about it instead of running to a store to buy it on a whim! Or in this case, read the Catechism. 😛
This is an amazing response. Thanks for being better than me hahaha I'm pretty mad about the catholicore since I converted because every image, clothes, art is about hope and life and people.... they want to sexualize Mother Mary
Have you read about the genocide that the Catholic church helped conduct in Latin America, Asia, and Africa? Maybe put down the catechism for a second and look up the real history of Catholic missions in America. My ancestors were tortured and murdered by your "beautiful" church.
Heck yessss so well said
amdg, is there a way i can find your art?
I’d love to see your art too! Do you have an ig?
27:10 I do want to note that “Catholic like Andy Warhol” does not mean “Catholic like a superficial pop artist.” After Warhol’s death, his estate revealed, essentially, a secret life; Warhol had been a devout Catholic and sort of mama’s boy the whole time. I think what that quote really alludes to is “I am a provocative radical artist on the outside, but privately I am a devout Catholic, like Andy Warhol”
I would encourage anyone interested/unaware of this part of Warhol’s life to check out the Great Art Explained video on his Marilyn print.
thank you! this is incredibly cool as a radical artist & devout catholic myself :)
rip martin luther, you would have absolutely hated the 5$USD instagram confessions.
Protestant reformation wasn't about religion. It was created by german philosophers to re-sacralisation of monarchy. Catholic Church said that every ppl have free will and king/prince/emperor should respect it. German princes and kings didn't like it so they made up protestantism to make monarchy absolute and independent from morality
Johann Tetzel would flip
he also absolutely hated jews, so he better not rest in peace but rot in hell. he even published a 7 point plan to either convert or exterminate all jews.
No literally 😭😭😭
@@jakub4931 massive catholic cope lol
The fetization of female innocence or virginity is so gross. As a Christian, when it is associated with Christian or Catholic aesthetics, it adds a layer to that uncomfortablity. I feel pressure when I see these depictions of my religion being used by non-believers to not be offended due to power dinamics, but when it is used to sexualize virginity, I just cant help feeling offended because I feel it is counterintuitive to sexual liberation and a continuation of womens sexualities being catered towards the satisfaction of men. Especially when there are so many notable women in the Catholic church who were unmarried and outspoken and bold in their beliefs.
YES! THANK YOU! I mean, as no one heard of St.Agnes, St. Cecilia? Maria Goreti, Catherine of Alexandria...shall I go on?
There is a Catholic girl on ig I follow who documents her life as a Catholic and as an autistic woman and I always feel so disgusted when men comment asking for when she'll start and of account. She dresses very modestly and just chronicles her daily life and posts some pictures of her dog and somehow even then she can't escape the lust of strangers. When will women be allowed to exist as people and not constant sexual objects?
so true. Women saints who were “virgins” made tbat decision so they would belong to themselves. Not to any man.
@@emmadumais2337
My favorite is Philomena
That's my second favorite Philomena. I don't know anything about her, but by default she's my second favorite as I only know two. My first favorite is Philomena Cunk, otherwise known as Diane Morgan.@@chopsuymatus9349
I echo many of the other "as a Catholic" comments here, and found a lot of your research (especially the quotes you pulled) super thought-provoking. My only addition would be that, while certainly many clergy aren't saints and take on rich ornamentation for the wrong reasons, I've never seen that as the primary reason for the decoration of churches and vestments. Remember that popes, bishops, etc. don't live in churches or wear vestments all day: both are expressly used for offering Mass, where bread and wine are consecrated into Christ's body and blood and offered to the whole world. The point of the opulence is not (or should not be) to elevate themselves as clergy, but to instil in those present for Mass the sense that they are truly entering into communion with God and experiencing a foretaste of Heaven on earth. Beautiful churches are places where everyone, from the poorest to the richest, can adore God together as equals.
Good point. Wealth that is stored in churches is beauty that is shared with all - in church, the rich and poor both worship side by side. Like museums and libraries, churches are public buildings in a sense, where all the baptised go to commune with God.
That's why you can watch the Vatican mass for free, but if you're a tourist, you have to pay
@@LORO__ No one has to pay to go into St Peter's Basilica. Worshippers are just given priority in the queues
but they do flaunt their wealth tho (outside the mass), at least where i live the church owns a lot of land + priests always drive expensive cars, wear rollex or other expensive watch brand and are businessmen (sometimes they also collaborate with politicians, the lore is wild and the church can be quite corrupted, the vatican is too, in 1990 the literal mafia boss was burried in a prominent basilisk, not that long after Manuela Orlandi went missing and church denied participating in an investigation)
@@leena75 Man that's sad to hear, I agree that that's totally inappropriate behaviour for priests. I honestly haven't seen stuff like that where I'm from, but I'm sure it's happening elsewhere
I feel like people were performatively religouse even before social media.
charging for confession is basically why jesus flipped tables… taxes. you’re taxing confession
That was about a 'confessional reading', like you'd get from a fortune teller reading cards or tea leaves. I don't think such a thing exists except as a scam, so paying for it is probably not a sin, just stupidity.
@@AV-we6wo nah i’m not saying paying for it is a sin. i’m saying he was pissed because the church taxed and CHARGED ppl and went in and flipped tables. it’s john 2:14
@@stellamobley9682 Thanks, I get it know. I was thinking of the indulgence trade, when people could pay to shorten their time in hell (or was it purgatory?) and got confused.
@@AV-we6wo i think it was hell but easy to confuse :)
if Jesus hates taxes why are so many capitalists Christian/s
"catholic mexican girl core" LMFAOOOO WHAT as a catholic mexican girl this is so funny to me like what are you guys talking about 😭😭
They are talking... About you ✝️🛐✝️🛐✝️🛐
As a Mexican goth who grew up alongside, Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, and Mormon family members (I have worn a rosary with a black folklorico dress and coined it "Mexican Goth" so I'm not exempt from this) I just feel like it can be spinned on social media enough into another way to fetishize Latinas and the European colonization. Like that aesthetic has been around in sooooooo many telenovelas.
@@giselletorres4156absolutely! im also a mexican catholic, but i’m indigenous from Oaxaca and it has lead to so much identity criseses and doubts but what has kept me going is la virgen de guadalupe. anyways, i also grew up around soooo many different denominations and churches and i always wore cross necklaces and kept a saint prayer card w me bcuz my beliefs are my own ! but it saddens me that these aesthetics can and are subverted into a perversion of someone’s faith. i hate institutionalized religion but damn something abt catholic art and the saints gets me every single time 😭
Not Catholic or Mexican, but Latin American, and the aesthetic bothers me so much. First of all, the name is so ugly, like at least they should have been slightly creative. Guadalupana core, see I found something better in less than a min. Second, it isn't even inspired by a Mexican designer but a Brazilian one. Third, Penelope is from Spain and Selma isn't a practicing catholic, neither is known to be into catholic symbols. Third, it feels so superficial. Like they just put an 'ethnically ambiguous' woman in a dress close to a Mary image. They didn't bother to search for the actual religious practices of Mexico or how Catholicism and Mexican culture have merged. Lastly, I dunno it feels very white-washed? It is like they erased any sort of indigenous influence in Mexican Catholicism.
@Diana-tl8pn shout out to you !!!! Yeah, they could have definitely been more creative in the core-name. And yes Penelope Cruz is from Spain!
I don’t know fashion, so I assume CZcams recommended your video because I’m a devout Catholic. Majority of parishes are very small and humble. But we do have daily/weekly color code calendar for mass- where the church flowers and priests robes are determined for the entire year. Some parishioners take it upon themselves to wear those corresponding colors to mass, but it’s not required.
as a catholic convert girlie myself, the aesthetic of the religion definitely played a part in my conversion. it is a beautiful church!! but it is so much more than that to those of us who practice.
I mean no disrespect at all, but as someone queer raised in the catholic church (I literally still go to private school) I really don't understand converts
I’m an atheist but I was raised catholic n I agree that I’ve always appreciated the aesthetics of it
@@plutoplatypus1641you're biting the hand that fed you
@piratekid1 or it was self-preservation. I’m not religious and I agree Catholicism has the best aesthetics.
@@plutoplatypus1641 people seek out truth, and i believe that the Catholic church contains the fullness of truth.
As a practicing Catholic I feel like there is a thin line between offensive and actually cool as hell Catholic integration in fashion. Heavenly Bodies remains my favorite Met Gala because it contained so many iconic looks that were not weird and fetishy representations of the symbols of my religion. It was giving high fashion all saints day party. Also that Instagram girly charging for confessions like they are tarot readings is insane, guys please be normal. P.S. I loved you struggling through the papal and doctrinal terminology. Thanks for making a respectful video on this topic!
100% agree, I’m also a practicing Catholic from a historically and culturally Catholic country.
"cool as hell" hahah I agree on what you said, but that part was funny to me xD
Agree, however I very often see uses of saint symbols as silly little accessories. Even if they're aesthetically pleasing I can't stand it
i had an obsession with the constantine movie, daredevil and all things gothic in the 2000s that i was like "damn these guys slay"
i think a lot of using religious symbology is a form of rebellion for some. like in "unholy" by sam smith and kim petras...both of those artists have faced hate, shaming, and other negative reactions just due to their being gay or trans in a catholic or Christian family...and they might use these symbols as a way to say "f*uck you for treating me bad, here is to me relearning my upbringing in a more authentic way." additionally...i think that fashion has blown it up so much that people who are actually practicing catholic might be offended...but people who arent practicing wouldn't be. i highly doubt people who utilize fetishy images of catholocism or religion are doing it to appropriate or blasphemize the imagery. its just popular. if you are a certain type of goth, satanist imagery is just part of the fashion style due to pagan roots...its not that these people actually want to disrespect cathloliscism in present day. all of this to say, I don't think anyone who is catholic should be offended by these things. i understand being bothered by it, but these images will continue to be portrayed "weirdly" and "fetishy." it will continue to happen for now and being offended by something almost certainly unintentional seems like a silly thing to worry about...just as mina said...the met protest was not really...needed. i don't think its needed for cathololic people to be offended over this. just see it and, respectfully, move on...in my opinion anyway.
25:22 As a Latina myself, this one gets a visceral reaction out of me and it actually makes me kind of sad, because catholicism made sexier via the usage of female latin bodies just perpetuates and solidifies the fetishization and oversexualization of latin women, who have already been perceived as mere exotic sexual objects with no purpose other than to be oggled at and desired for decades.
100% yes!
Dude preach. It’s incredibly frustrating
You've perfectly encapsulated something I was trying to hard to word correctly. Thank you, you are so right!
Every aesthetic name with the title mexican, latina and hispanic is always sexualizing y'all. It is definitely not fair
But it's okay when it's white girls who are sexualized? Cheers for the racism.
The double take I did when I saw the title of the video 😄Very well researched and contextualised take, it's clear that you put a lot of effort into it. Just to offer a practising Catholic's perspective on your last question - yes, it's appropriation and yes, it's mostly offensive, disrespectful and inappropriate. I'm not talking about an exhibit, but about the sexualisation and use of symbols that's very clearly meant to provoke or offend. I know that these trends mostly concern the US, where Christianity is so mainstream that it seems edgy to make fun of it or as rebelling against one's upbringing, but that's not the case everywhere in the world. There are many places where Christians face adversity and persecution, I myself live in a very atheist country and was bullied as a child for being Christian. Now are there more persecuted groups of people? Absolutely, it's not a competition. I just think it's something to keep in mind before deciding it's free real estate. Plus you can't explain to me how sexualising women! (I don't think I've seen a sexy monk costume) who have committed themselves to chastity is okay.
I'm still not over the selling confessions over social media what the helllllllll that's hilariously on point
“Confession readings” aren’t even a real thing I think she had to be trolling because literally everything about the post was wrong lmao
You joke about having a parasocial relationship with the pope, but I don't think you're that far off with how some people treat him. I swear some people forget he is just a man.
True! In the Philippines, old catholics are so obsessed with the pope, bishops etc. Some of them even get tons of money from patrons and buy expensive cars. Born Again Christians here also sometimes revere their pastors too much that they become a cult already. Right now there's a SA case against a pastor, but his people are protecting him and the victims are not getting any justice.
Yeah, I saw him "live" (school trip) and the crowds he attracts behave similar to fangirls, yelling "papa!"
my grandma has a ton of pictures of papa Juan Pablo II in her house
He's supposed to be God's spokesperson on earth. If you're not catholic, he's a man. If you're catholic, he's more than just a man by official doctrine.
@@writerchick94 i am catholic and he is a man and will always be just a man. I don’t do this false idolisation like some others.
Love how Catholicism is considered the fancy/aesthetic flavor of Christianity...meanwhile, Orthodox Christian vestments are full metallic jacquard & velvet, icons are covered in gold leaf, and there's, like, 10 different styles of crosses. 😂
is this why christians hate catholics so much? bc people think they’re cooler than yall?
If the church ain’t painted top to bottom then what are we even doing?! My churches didn’t even have chairs except fancy ones on the walls for like pregnant and old ppl, you gotta stand and look at that golden altar damn it
@@venusgin7779 And then you got those Moldovan churches, painted intside *and* outside.
Truly iconic, in all senses of the word. 🤣
A lot of people don’t even know Orthodox Christianity is a thing
most people aren’t familiar with orthodoxy especially in the west
I just want to say I really appreciate how much research and effort you put on your video essays. Doing this would be really hard for me, so bravo 👏
this is one of the most interesting and insightful videos on fashion that ive seen lately. It just all makes so much sense with where we are as a society and you explained it so well!!!
I’m Irish. I think the Catholic grip on fashion has its roots in the Catholic grip on European education. You mentioned that Coco Chanel learned to sew at a Catholic orphanage. I learned to sew in a home economics class in a convent school. In all convent schools girls especially were pushed to learn sewing, knitting and other clothing and textile crafts. Ireland became famous for Carrickmacross Lace, when a local convent taught the local girls the art of lacemaking, which lifted all of them out of poverty virtually overnight and made the more skilled among them extremely wealthy. I think the fact it was nuns who were teaching kids how to make clothes and accessories is what led to Catholic culture having an impact on fashion at a very early stage.
.....it's cos Catholic aesthetic is divinely inspired and the best
As an (non catholic) American this comment really fills in the picture for me
Yes! People leave out the obvious history which occurred in this very lifetime. It is much easier to reduce every iota of human behavior into electrical impulse!
Chanel and many other fashion houses fall into the philosophy of saville row fascism and eugenics.
This is amazing context thank you!
i literally said “FINALLY, somebody SMART talking about this” out loud to myself
Smart.. lol
Yes smart and if you don't think so fuck off @@uwu-fm2kj
Soooo true! Loveee Mina
she included Portugal as part of Spain, yeah.. smart..lol
Just found this channel today. Loving it!
Thank you for covering this video in such a non biased and respectful way! I’ve seen such a rise in the “Catholic aesthetic” and it’s nice to see it covered :) -a Catholic
You have developed so much as a speaker and journalist over the years! You really inspire me. I enjoy your research and presentation so much, as well as, of course, your charisma and personality. Much love!
posting this during lent and specifically one week before holy week is so iconic xx
I love your editing, I feel like not enough ppl give you your flowers for your amazing editing!!!
amazing video as always!!!! but i think for the last segment, as far as the question “it it okay?” goes- when it comes to things like “sexy” nun/priest costumes, and brands that create provocative clothing for the runway that’s clearly pulling from a Christian aesthetic… yeah i think it’s not okay. and i’m not talking about things like “heavenly bodies” at the met gala, which was celebrating the beauty and creativity of catholic/christian art. If it’s not okay for other religions like Islam why not hold the same standards for Christianity? if a designer debuted a “sexy” niqab/hijab look it would be incredibly distasteful as most would agree. to the point of the Catholic church creating harm and having a violent past/history so it can’t be appropriated- literally every major religion on this planet is the same way. we’re humans who like to conform the people around us to think and worship the same way we do, even through terrible means. i don’t think people should tell christian’s to get over themselves because they’re offended by what madonna, lady gaga, etc do in their shows/MVs
Agreed! I think that part of the video lacked nuance
actually, all religions should be criticised and mocked. that's the issue with the islam argument you people always hide behind. all mainstream religions are harmful and none of them should be protected from critique and mockery.
It depends on where it's happening. I live in America, where Christianity is overwhelmingly the dominant religion. Roughly one in five people in America are Catholic. It isn't cultural appropriation for people here to pull Christian or Catholic aesthetics because it IS our culture. I personally have experienced a lot of trauma at the hands of the Catholic church---the harm they've done isn't some distant, historical artifact: it's happening right now. Groups like the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence exist specifically because of the active harm that the Catholic Church does to my community, and frankly I think that's fantastic. All the power in the world to Lady Gaga. When the Catholic Church stops being actively homophobic, maybe then you'll have a leg to stand on in critiquing how any queer person uses Christian symbolism.
@@jeaugustThey didn't really mention being gay, etc. in their comment, from what I can see. Obviously your point about the church is very valid. I do think that taking something like what nuns would wear and sexualizing it is still really weird, though. I don't think we should sexualize any group of people in general tbh, and definitely not groups of people who literally don't want that!
Charging for a confession is wild. So wild, someone would nail like 95 thesis to someone’s door. (Seriously, confess to a priest, it’s free and they cannot talk about what you said, the random girl on ig will say what you told her on reddit)
It's giving sale of indulgences. We've literally just gone back in time 🤦♀️ this is what history class was supposed to prevent
Or just confess directly to God
@@magdacavuquila3263 sometimes you need someone who talks back. That someone can set a penitence so you can go back and receive communion. It's a catholic thing.
yeah shame its not a biblical thing @@saraangel6696
@@magdacavuquila3263 We could, but Our Lord gave His Church the ability to absolve sins. John 20:22-23
Catholic being a fashion statement is sending me back to the renaissance lol
which reminds me, is that the time period you can only make art from the Bible?
Renaissance was actually all about critisising the Church after medival times. It's quite ironic to consider this time the era of religious art
@@berenikaczerniak5376it wasn’t necessarily a critique; the church was scrambling to keep people faithful as people were dying from the plague. literacy was still very low during this time so religious paintings were a more accessible way to convey the gospel to the masses. to the church, the renaissance was a time to ramp up the grandiosa of catholicism in order to get people back into their pews
I would hope it would send you back to the reformation tbqh.
@@margarete5920 There was literally never a time period they only made art from the Bible lol. There have been small communities that enforced stuff like that but never entire societies. Even when religious art was the dominant form they made art of Christian folk tales and post-Biblical saints. Renaissance was associated with a lot of Classical mythological themes in art it was just had Christian allegorical intent even when it was mostly there as an excuse for naked people (and Biblical and explicitly Christian art got used as an excuse for nudes as well).
I love how your videos are extremely well-researched while also using language that is extremely accessible to listeners! ❤ Awesome work
mina i think this is your best video yet!! I'm about to go on a little research deep dive myself because of this. I think there really is something so profound about something like catholicism lasting so long and comparing it to how basically everything in our lives now becomes popular and dies out in weeks or months, and why people are seeking this out as their new -core of the month
“A confession reading” is the wildest phrasing I have ever heard
So agree, what a weird and ridiculous concept to mix Catholic confession with any type of reading 😭
Yeah, like what the heck is that even supposed to mean? Going to confession isn't like a tarot card reading.
As an alt/goth person from a catholic country surrounded by more churches than most things….. yeeeeeees. Also how Americans view catholics and some dont ever consider them christians…..WILD..
Then again im usually adorned with crosses pearls etc and even shows in my art loool
The whole not considering Catholics as Christians to me comes from historical anti Irish and Italian biases.
i mean i went to catholic high school and it swung both ways. i was told i wasn't a real christian because catholics were the only real christian and i wouldn't be going to heaven since i wasn't catholic.
I feel like in catholic school we often separated ourselves when discussing Christians. Maybe because a lot of Christianity was a different form of a prior Christianity ? They just didn’t explain the differences in detail so it got lumped together by proxy
@@sarahnicole_i Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity are the oldest forms, others are newer
YES?
As a Brit I find that the American attitude to Catholicism so weird. Obviously we see Catholicism as it’s own denomination, but not as separate to Christianity?
You are amazing, as always! So well researched and presented, and I just love listening to you. Thank you, Mina! Have a lovely day!
Mina your makeup looks so good in this video!
As someone who is half German and was raised Catholic but is no longer religious, I find it wild that Christianity in the US has gotten so conservative that catholicism is now considered "more liberal." I will say this of my former religion. They definitely win in aesthetics! I mean, the cathedrals in Europe alone are breathtaking!
I was also raised Catholic(I’m Chilean) and was even practicing it until about 12 years ago (I’m no longer religious although I still believe in God) I found so “funny” to consider Catholicism as “edgier” Christians like OMG how far has conservatives gone to one of the most conservative religions can be considered “liberal” and “edgy” 😅
@nicolec.5352 Right?! It's to the point where I feel weirdly proud of my former religion because catholicism is downright normal by comparison. If you look at evangelicals, it's like they're in a straight-up cult, I actually get the creeps when I hear some of the crazy stuff they spout.
@@MsKatze interesting that German evangelism is so much more liberal than catholicism but in America its the other way around?
i’m a catholic and it’s definitely not “liberal” .. what are you talking about
@user28910 I'm not the one who considers it liberal, Evangelicals who are typically also far right politically do.
Im catholic myself and also alt/goth. I get questioned about using the cross , especially my blessed rosary that is not only for accessorizing , but the one I use to pray. There’s always discourse on outfits videos whenever non-Catholics/christians show how they accessorize their rosaries. I think personally that it’s okay to use as long as it’s not blessed and you’re not mocking it ofc. If it’s pretty, it’s pretty.
why use a rosary and a cross just for looks? its like saying am walking with the a Hijab on for LOOKS girl bye lol
@@AshudwayAtakDeng-lt4sn Bc a hijab was created to be worn, but a rosary is a prayer object. It's not necessarily considered unacceptable to wear, but using it only as a fashion accessory and not for prayer is the thing that most Catholics might have an issue with. Source: grew up Catholic and went to Catholic school for 8 years
@@AshudwayAtakDeng-lt4snthe rosary can be held or hung up around the house. I have a rosary in my car hanging at the rearview mirror. It’s not always an accessory, it just CAN be used. Also head coverings are worn in several religions but the hijab and the way it’s worn was SPECIFICALLy made to be worn at all times. Thats the difference
@AshudwayAtakDeng-lt4sn plenty of women wear hijabs just because it's pretty. It's called a scarf. Muslims don't have a problem with it.
i know plenty of people who arent alt/ goth that wear a rosary around their wrist to always have an item of prayer or symbolism to show theyre catholic. i see nothing wrong with having it hang out a pocket or on your arm if you believe! although, theres been a lot of discourse about wearing it as a necklace. i was taught in catholic grade school that it was wrong to wear it as a necklace but to each their own. as long as you study and research the meaning behind wearing it around your neck and respect it, then i see no problem. too many ppl judge instead of just asking or simply educating. typical sunday catholic.
This was super interesting! I love all the deep research you do and the diversity of topics you bring to a single video. I also really appreciate how respectful and unbiased you were, I'm not Catholic but I think it deserves respect just for how much it has meant to so many people all over the world throughout history and today.
As a theology student looking at image veneration during the reformation, you did a really good job.
As a Catholic Gen Z-er myself, I don't consider the Met theme or people integrating Catholicism in their fashion as blasphemous, the art is very beautiful and should be appreciated! I think it becomes issue or offensive when it is sexualized or made to be super nonchalant. I think there is a certain responsibility of making any kind of artistic choice to consider the history of that art and to treat it with respect. Regardless, thank you for the respect you showed throughout the video, Mina! Love your vids always
Fellow Catholic gen-z here and I have to agree. Going out of your way to sexualize a group of women who have literally taken a vow of celibacy is honestly more disrespectful than some edgy teenager wearing an upside-down cross(when that's just St. Peter's cross, not the demonic insult to Christ that they think it is lol)
As another Catholic Gen-Z, I completely agree. The problem is not with using Catholic symbols in general, it's using them disrespectfully and sexually. As long as it's respectful, I think it's beautiful
I'm not Catholic, but I am religious, and I completely agree! I have a problem with sexualizing nuns and other representatives of chastity *cough* ARTEMIS *cough*, but I think some things like the outfits Sabrina wears in Feather look lovely! The choice of where it was filmed is the only problem I have, considering how she's going around and murdering men 😭
@@SylvainJoseGautier- You know the artistic choice behind that was because she was raped in that film and had her innocence robbed, and the choice of her nun costume was to highlight how much of her innocence was lost by the time of the Halloween party
Uuuh, what about it being grimdark and edgy like the game blasphemous?, or even bloodborne to an extent
As someone who was raised Catholic and has a great aunt who's an actual Catholic nun, I'm very interested to watch this
Omg same!!
Same girlie same!!!
Same girl! Performative religion is fascinating to me as a Catholic myself and as someone who has Catholic religious in her family too. (Also I’m a “bad” Catholic - I feel the need to make it clear that I’m pro human rights. 🙄 to the Church’s colonialism to their continued fight against reproductive healthcare)
Haha same!
Never heard of anyone else having a nun in their family! My mom was a catholic nun and then left after 18 years. This is indeed interesting to watch
love how ur videos feel like chatting and gossiping with a friend
Hey Mina! I hope you are well! Missing the podcasts recently since i listen to them on the commute to school! Hope they'll make a comeback soon
Finding out people are essentially cosplaying as Catholic is strangely not surprising. Americans (mostly from Protestant or Evangelical backgrounds, both actively practicing or currently secular) have always treated Catholics/Catholicism is such a weird way. They either emulate the art/aesthetic or treat it as “Devil worship” (what my Evangelical public school teacher called it). I was raised Catholic in a Protestant/Evangelical area, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard “You’re not REALLY Christian” or “Believing in Mary and the Saints is paganism,” etc. I once had a play date in elementary school with a girl whose father was a pastor, and he spent over an hour yelling crazy stuff like the Pope is the Antichrist and that my family is going to hell unless we repent. I was eight.
i'm a practicing catholic, the pope is most certainly the anti christ no doubt about it he is awful with all the stuff he has let go on in the church its messed up, i dont follow the pope i only go to church to see god
so true i kinda hate lol
Had the same experience as a Catholic kid who moved to south a decade ago. I had public school teachers shaming and shunning me for not being Protestant/evangelical
It goes the other way too. I grew up in a country that is steeped in Eastern Orthodox Christianity. They are, if possible, even more ostentatious than the Catholic Church. Dress and decoration is very elaborate and flashy, services are very long and there is a lot of chanting etc (no instruments, just highly trained voice chanting, taught in a full Theology BA degree, which is required to become a priest).
When I was about 13-14, I was accosted by these American Neo-Protestants on the street. A woman started talking to me in my native language, but she was kind of fumbling around, and I was more confused than anything. Then another woman approached, and asked me if I spoke English. When I said yes, she started talking to me animatedly in English and invited me to attend a service at her church. I went, more because I was just excited to have some native English speakers to converse with (this was back in 2002, I think). I entered, and the place was a simple, sterile room with blank walls and a bunch of chairs, and a stage with musical electrical equipment, speakers, that kind of thing. It gave me the weirdest vibes, because it was completely unlike what I knew church to be like. I had also picked up the vibe from my general culture that these "cultists" (what we call Neo-Protestants) who practice other forms of Christianity than Orthodoxy and Catholicism are suss as all hell, and to be avoided. Catholicism is still "strange", but more acceptable.
It almost bothers me more when they say they're "reclaiming" it... when they're not Catholic or raised Catholic... than when they're just useless like the girl referred to upthread with her "rosemary". These things have meaning and history to us, they're part of our roots, whether we are practicing or not. You can't reclaim something that was never yours.
As a practicing Catholic I want to thank you for how informative and respectful you made this video! Great job! It was really interesting to hear about Catholic aesthetic elements seen as fashion, because it's definitely not the perspective I can get from the "inside" of the religion.
I also wanted to add that the dispersion of artistic beauty and wealth is very uneven in Catholic church and heavily differs by country. For example, in post-soviet countries many old beautifully decorated churches were damaged/completely destroyed during the USSR period as any religions were banned during that period, and after the collapse of the USSR the church in post-soviet countries just didn't have enough money to rebuild the churches with the same artistic luxury, so many Catholic churches there are not very different from the Protestant ones, really.
I live in Japan now, and here Catholic churches are rather simple as well, but because not only Catholicism, but Christianity as a whole is a relatively new religion here, so the Christian artistic tradition here is very different from Europe. I just thought this somewhat aligns with what you said in the video about many successful designers we know being from France, Italy, or Spain.
how is life as a catholic in japan?
@@Starwarp02 I have nothing to complain about, really. It is a bit sad to not have public holidays for Christmas and other important days, but I just take my paid days off on those days. The priest and people in my parish are very kind, I found a great supportive community there. I do sometimes run into misconceptions about my religion, but most of the time it is only because people are unfamiliar with Christianity, and usually they are respectful and curious. I never got mocked here because of my religion or anything like that.
@@user-eb5mg8hy6q If you haven't already I would recommend looking into St. Maximilian Kolbe, he actually went to Japan and did some of his ministry there. Incredible Saint.
@@user-eb5mg8hy6q Tell me about it. I’m a practicing Muslim who lives in Yokohama in Japan and everyone just looks at me like I’m some sort of madman whenever I pray in public due to the lack of mosques and things like that you know.
Yesterday I watched a video on vampire fashion and I'm getting flashbacks! Love your analysis of this topic 🥰
I have a not-so-great relationship with the Catholic Church, but I can appreciate a lot of the art the church uses. It is beautiful, I used to be very intrigued by the stained glass windows at my local church, the oldest of which was from the 14th century and they gradually got newer and more detailed! Its inspired some of my own art projects, despite me not being religious anymore.
I think this video undervalues the effect Madonna had on the Catholic imagery style in the 80's and 90's. The crosses she would tuck into her décolleté in "LIke a Virgin". The overt imagery and costuming in "Like a Prayer" was a Big Deal. The D&G and Gaultier styles came after Madonna started incorporating it into her style - remember she used these designers for her tours, so they took the idea from her, not the other way around.
This. Like a prayer was HUGE and considered very provocative back then. But this is what happens when younger people reminiss about events that happened before they were born. It gets diluted or completely ignored.
great point! it makes me sad that we don’t talk enough of Madonna
I was shocked at how brief the Madonna section in this video was!!!! This topic is a huge chunk of her career!
I was looking for this comment.
No one had more of an impact on this as secular fashion than Madonna: everything that could be described as street wear began with her. She not only brought the idea of gaudy paraphernalia of the faith to a society that was steeped in puritanical plainness AND the dowdiness of Catholic schools and churches throughout the 20th century (only the Polish churches seemed to stay proudly gaudy in the States, everything else was dull and strict and plain and horribly dingy) but she brought the delicious idea that there was still something to *rebel* against. Even if it was borrowed, it was sooo baaaad; and people just went crazy for it, delighting in the rediscovered ability to shock. She was also the one to connect it to high fashion when she started working with Gaultier, and everyone started copying her - not that they didn't have the real thing at home in Italy, but they didn't style it like her until they saw how it would sell.
I kept waiting for Like A Prayer in this video, but no one born after these events can even guess at how big, how popular, how shocking, how omnipresent she was in the discourse because they've never lived in a society where everyone was reacting to the same pop culture all at once. We're so fragmented now... it was very different then. We could only process one outrage at a time! Positively archaic! She was bigger than you could imagine.
Pre-Madonna you're looking at the fashion of the Church; post Madonna you're looking at Fashion, with Church elements. She's the watershed moment.
@@victoriarector1123 And I was in catholic school for the better part of the 80's, all girls catholic run by Italian nuns school, so I lived that cultural shock first hand. We had uniforms, and a dress code on top of the uniforms, how many buttons down can you button down the button down shirt to show off how large of a cross how far down in your developing cleavage.
As a practicing catholic, I really appreciate the respect and knowledge with which you handled this topic. As always, you’re incredibly intellectual, compassionate and graceful and it is never unnoticed. God bless!!💜
Ditto! I just wish she brought up artist and serial abuser Father Marko Rupnik. He founded a religious community where he would abuse adults, but the current Vatican protocols don’t investigate anyone over the age of 18 unless if they’re “vulnerable”. He’s also close friends with Pope Francis, so of course he got away with it.
Yes!! I was just typing the same thing
I was also gonna say something like this ❤️ I’m sharing this video with a bunch of my Catholic and Non-Catholic fashion girlies!! This video is interesting, well-researched, AND respectful!! Love 😍✨
Yes so true
Saaaaame!
wow, great study, Mina! I'm always impressed by the detailed research in your videos.
would love love love to see you do a longer video on dime square!
Being Mexican and raised catholic (now non practicing but culturally catholic if that makes sense) I had a field day once the "catholic mexican girl core" started showing on my feed (mostly criticism lol) the funny thing was how latina girlies started making a buck selling their old 1st Communion dresses on depop, good for them
What does it mean to be non practicing but culturally
@@lm-zy1xtit means that Catholic traditions, holidays, and aesthetics are still part of their culture as they grew up Catholic
@@Teajay21 to me it meant believing in like God but not going to church/not making religion a big part of your daily life
@@lm-zy1xt no culturally Catholic is usually used in the opposite way. You don't believe but it's still such a part of your community and culture you still participate in traditions and holidays.
I have kinda of the same perspective but I'm not Mexican I'm Brazilian and honestly I never heard of that "core" and also not even about that Brazlian designer lmao but seeing catholicism as "edgy" is wild specially because I always had the opposite relationship to it, I was raised by an atheist father belive you or not and I wasn't even baptized (even tho that my mom tried to baptize me the church that she tried didn't let baptize kids without the consent of the father) and I always thought that I was the edgiest kid for that, while my friends was in catequese (I don't know the name for it in English) I wasn't and I thought that i was such a rebel for that, ignoring all the Saint statues that my grandma gave me and fckng pillows with prayers and stuff, when I saw people creating an aesthetic out of catholic Latino American references or whatever I was kinda down to it in theory just to try to be more interested in stuff that always felt corny af or even scary to me, my grandma house was never cute and minimalistic like the those that we see in european references, it was always over the top and messy colorful and honestly... kinda scary having big statues of saints everywhere and murals inside of the house stuff hanging on the ceilling, seeing this type of place being seeing as "cool" and "aesthetic" was kinda cool but didn't feel genuine and even kinda fetishist in a way and as you said kinda boring, like I respect my grandma and my family a lot ok? And I do have a lot of internalized catholic guilty in me somehow so much that i am already feeling kinda bad talking about it like that but idk it all feels kinda weird.
My younger cousin was getting into a sort of goth aesthetic the other year and showed me this silver cross necklace she got at the thrift store. She called it a "rosemary" and I started laughing so hard that I cried.
As someone who went to Catholic school, I find it fascinating to see how much of the online "Catholic aesthetic" is generalized. The lonely, isolated girl depicted in the Instagram photos could be of any Christian denomination. In fact, she's more likely to be Protestant at times, if the content creator doesn't know the difference between a cross and a crucifix. The people who perform this aesthetic and are vague about whether or not they actually converted to Catholicsm probably never went through RCIA/OCIA (Rite/Order of Christian Initiation of Adults) and have no intention of learning the proper order of the sacraments, their meanings, or their importance in Catholic life. It's all just to look and feel cool. Part of the allure of Catholicism might not be just its opulence, but its order. Its hierarchy and strong visual language are reminiscent of pop culture depictions of cults... at least the cool-looking ones.
Back to the start of the story, I had to be sure to tell my cousin to tone it down. Our relatives were non-practicing Seventh Day Adventists, a Protestant Christian group that believed that Catholicism had a role on the Devil's side at the end of days. You know, like a cult.
Idk, for me as someone not Catholic, but ex-Orthodox, I appropriate the culture that wrecked my ancestral religion of which I just have the remnants of what others thought of us (mostly puritans). Also Christianity and all of its flavors are intrinsically similar, even if each denomination desperately tries to paint the others as devil’s work (reminds me of the relationship between my country and countries around me that have identical language, come from the same group of ppl as us, but just chose to carry themselves differently and begun demonizing each other based on that)
Many ppl that take it on as fashion, especially goths, do it to go against the church. Not sure if ur cousin is doin it bc of tgat but yeah
That is ridiculous._.
Not like all of that part, but the whole war of Christianity and Catholicism. They’re literally the same thing, they both believe and god and Jesus so idk what’s the difference?
Like literally both of them ARE cults. This is just some stupid war, plus most catholic people didn’t have a choice because of colonialism. The same with Christianity. They didn’t even exist in the early days, especially to natives cause they have their OWN good (at least in MY culture where I’m from) and then some white people came and took that from them and force them into believe things that weren’t part of their beliefs or cultures.
But I agree with the whole not knowing the value of specific garments, and then turning them into fashion. Like yes, if you’re educated and know what it means, I don’t see a problem with turning it into fashion. But if it’s those aesthetic core shit just to be trendy and all of that without knowing the value or meaning behind what they’re wearing. I don’t agree with that. That’s rude.
@@venusgin7779Interestingly enough, Protestants are more likely to get insulted by not knowing the difference between something that's Catholic vs. Protestant. Take the cross vs. crucifix. A Catholic can wear both, but a firm Protestant wouldn't dare wear a crucifix. Why? Protestants are basically protesting. It's in their name. What are they protesting? Anything Catholic, which can be boiled down to richly decorated imagery & a hierarchy. A cross is simple, goes with their view. Having Jesus on the cross makes it a crucifix. They see it as Sadism, that Catholics somehow love to dwell on moments of gore & pain
@@lxlx7941there are major differences between Protestantism and Catholicism. You got to do research
Me, someone who grew up
catholic, “ wtf is a confession Reading?!” Lol thanks for the great video, your work is always so thorough and fun.
So good! I think you are so fantastic. Thank you for your work! 😅🤍🙏🏻🦋
as someone who was raised catholic and grew up in a very catholic country this whole thing is honestly kinda strange to me. i feel like there's a huge difference between people who are/were actually catholic doing this and people who aren't. in my opinion when it comes from people who aren't/weren't catholic or weren't raised in a catholic environment it often comes across like cosplay at best and uninformed mockery at worst and not in any way actually original or transgressive. there's a difference in commenting on a religion (in whatever form) from the outside versus from the inside. not all commentary has to be positive and honestly personally i really appreciate commentary that crosses boundaries but in my opinion when it comes from people who weren't raised catholic or didn't grow up in a very catholic environment i don't really see what that commentary could possibly add to the conversation, there's nothing for you to rebel against here specifically and personally i haven't ever encountered any commentary from such people that actually felt substantial. (not saying such actually substantial commentary doesn't exist at all ever, i'm just speaking about my personal experiences.)
I don't think it's about rebelling or subverting Catholicism anymore, even if the original Goth aesthetic may have been about or inspired by that. I think at least in the US, it's almost a rebellion against Evangelical Protestantism.
Someone who appropriates Catholic aesthetics may not be a Catholic, but a beautiful crucifix is something so antithetical to both the ethos and visuals of modern Evangelical Protestantism and its modern aesthetics and I can see why someone would want to wear one.
@@danshakuimoi totally get why someone who isn't associated with catholicism would want to wear a crucifix (or other catholic symbols for that matter, most look cool as fuck) i just simply don't think that that alone constitutes interesting commentary. you're definitely making an interesting point but tbh i kind of struggle to understand why someone would want to fall back on catholic imagery when trying to go against for example a predominantly protestant culture ^^' when i try to incorporate elements into my style or into how i express myself in general with the goal of going against my background i would personally never consider using protestant/orthodox/... imagery for that simply because what i'm trying to go against isn't a protestant/orthodox/... culture. nothing in my life is closely associated with these images and themes so they're of no use to me when i try to critique the religion and culture i grew up with. to me that would feel like simply exchanging one "evil" for another without actually focusing on what bothers me about my background or deconstructing the symbols, stories, values, etc i grew up around, it would feel ineffective to me. that doesn't mean that i think people can't ever use catholic imagery, i can't and don't want to control what others do, it just doesn't make much sense to me. (does that make sense? i'm sorry i don't actually speak english so i fear i'm kind of struggling to get my point across >_
@@niphilii believe the previous commenter has a point. The reason using Catholic imagery in the US is a rebellion against Protestant Evangelicalism is because Protestants hate Catholics. They believe they are the true faith with the true interpretation. As Mina explained, one of Martin Luther's and the early Protestant movements core beef's, shall we say, and criticisms with Catholicism was an argument against wealth expressed through ostentatious art.
I grew up in a mostly Protestant area, and boy the way they talk about Catholics, like they truly despise and hate them, think they're going to hell, they hate priests and nuns and Cathedrals and rosary beads etc. I've heard people say they'd never even step foot in a Catholic church or Cathedral even as like a tourist thing to do in Europe.
So for an American to visibly wear fashion with Catholic iconography is an act that will piss off Protestant Evangelicals, because they hate anything Catholic. Anything visibly Catholic, American Evangelicals hate it.
Wearing a rosary necklace is like "poking the bear" as they say, almost daring an Evancelical to get irate and go into a tirade about how evil Catholics are.
TL/DR Catholic fashion makes Evancelicals uncomfortable because they hate all things Catholic, that's why it's a rebellion against American Protestant Evangelicalism
@@danshakuimolove this! I never would have thought of it this way, but considering how much American Protestant Evangelicalis hate anything Catholic, seeing someone wearing Catholic inspired fashion I could see definitely pissing them off. I know specific people in my life who would react that way to a girl wearing say a rosary bead inspired necklace over a collared black dress lol.
@@danshakuimo that is an excellent insight. I'm a protestant, and for decades I've not worn any religious symbols because I don't want to be associated with the January 6th sort of Christians. I finally chose a cross for myself from Ukraine that isn't an Orthodox cross or a Catholic crucifix. But it also looks distinct from both fashion crosses and mainstream Evangelical ones.
literally was just having this convo with my friend yesterday😭😭 i always have been obsessed with the beauty of catholic aesthetics myself but thats from going to my grandma’s house in my youth and seeing her own devotion and obsession with virgin mary statues and art. i have a lot of religious trauma now but i still cling to many of the symbols because its ties to my ancestors and latin culture. its so weird and interesting to see ppl who have no connection to it wearing rosaries and shit for “coquette” fashion. not that i think the church deserves blind respect.
the church may not deserve blind respect but Jesus does… like.
i feel the same way, im not a practicing catholic but my grandma was and the rosary i wear has a tie to her as a latin woman. i grew up seeing her rosaries in her room on her dresser, and they’ve always been beautiful to me. i also grew up with my own rosary but i dont have that anymore lol
Meh.....so much religious trauma....and I got none. Pooey
thisss
The Church deserves at least as much respect as you do. I depend on the Church for my immortal soul. I don't depend on you. Also...less of the trauma trope. I'm not getting it
I love Mina, the channel, the amount of work that goes into these videos is too tier. But today the edit at 3:34 is the reason I choked on my tea in this office cubicle! 😭😂 I didn't know how much I needed the wheezing laughter it prompted.
A special thanks today to Mina and her team.
Bless you for bringing up Filipino sorcinelli. His perfumes are GLORIOUS and are works of art.
This is so neat! I recently did an internship at a monastery, and I was archiving textiles the nuns had made. The different phases of the church like Vatican ii and the 1920s Catholic aesthetics did play a part in labeling and dating the pieces. Even within the church you could see how the nuns work reflected those decisions. Pieces from the 20s were these huge intricate sparkling banners whereas in the 70s it was much less fancy and contained simply phrases without ornate detailing. Religious textile culture is truly interesting
that sounds like it must have been a really interesting experience! this is exactly the topic i'd watch a three hour documentary on since it's already like three of my fav vague interests
@@meeshmallows name of the documentary?
Catholic here, and my understanding is that what that girl is selling wouldn't even be a "Confession" (no idea what she means by "confession reading", never heard that term) because she is not an ordained member of clergy
This was my vibe today, I've been reading Jacobus De Voragine's, "The Golden Legend", which was the 2nd most popular book next to the Bible, during the medieval era, an anthology of the short stories of the lives of saints, and discussions of various ritualistic feast cycles. Y'all I have so many hot Catholic takes.
ooo let's hear some hot takes
I know this is unrelated, but THANK YOU for having such amazing captions! 🥰
I was Raised Catholic and have since left the church- but I think there’s something hauntingly beautiful about the aesthetics and traditions of the religion that I still love about it despite the deeply flawed institution
Why do you guys just associate the religion with an institution and not the actual meaning behind it. Like if you associate Jesus with what the church did and stopped believing because of it, you never believed at first place
@lm-zy1xt Catholicism is a denomination and the Bible is what you're referring to
For what it’s worth, there’s no better time to come back than Holy Week. If something in your heart still wants to believe in the empty tomb on Easter morning, then you should know it’s still waiting there for you.
Big same. I was also raised Catholic and left but I love the art. I have absolutely no use for the Church but the imagery resonates on a level I'll never shake.
@@lm-zy1xtya know, former christians and catholics go through a special kind of existential terror while unlearning what we'd been indoctrinated with and thats not bc we never believed but bc we did. everyone who has gone through the process of facing what we've been taught is eternal damnation is accused of having never believed in the first place. does categorizing us that way make it easier to right off our world views and cling to your own? believe it or not even the most devout can find themselves on the other side of belief regardless of how much current christians of all sorts try to right us and our experiences off as having never been true in the first place.
"Catholic mexican girl core" Oh! That's... that's me 😮😮😮💖💖💖
Looking at the aesthetic of this, I'd say it comes from it being soooo much like mexican telenovelas depiction of their "good girl but also sexy" ptotagonists
@@mariadoslunas4782considering that many Mexican soap operas were huge in Brasil makes a lot of sense that the designer would take that as inspiration 😅
Lol literally me too. I remember when it was trending I was shocked😳
@@mariadoslunas4782THIS!!! Looks very "poor girl wearing a white dress falling in love with the son of the owner of the Hacienda" core
such a good video mina!
Girl you make such good content!
A note about building Christian churches on top of the ancient pagan temples --> see the Mexico City Metropolitan Cathedral. They literally built it right on top of the Templo Mayor after conquering the Aztecs. You can see it through little windows in the ground near the entrance.
Same thing happened in Scandinavia. The Catholic Church perhaps didn’t use the old temples but they built churches on top of sacred pagan places.
In Spain, the holy spots switched back and forth between church and mosque depending on who was in control of the area.
La catedral is not builed above the templo mayor. Templo mayor is on the side of the catedral
Yup!! They absolutely did it. Visit Europe & so many are layered over historical sites.
Mexican here. The cathedral is NOT on top of the Templo Mayor. The Templo Mayor ruins still exist and you can go see them. They're located between the National Palace and the Cathedral.
I think it depends where you live too- my parents were heavily discriminated against as catholics growing up in the troubles (were from north west england not Ireland but it permeated politics at the time) and even during my history undergrad seminars there were students in my class who hadn’t heard of the troubles at all yet there were hurtful stereotypes about Catholicism that they would say- so in that sense I would be hurt by appropriation as I think to wear something from a culture that isn’t your own you’ve got to understand it’s meaning for people in the area you live
another great video thanks mina!!!
Editing is top notch 👌
I’m a practicing Catholic, I think a lot of other Catholics can agree that we definitely have seen a rise in anti- Catholic rhetoric. I think there is a way to integrate Christianity and Catholicism with respect. But most music/ content/ fashion with Catholic inspiration have disrespectful connotations. I’d be interested to know what other faith groups (Jewish, Muslim) would think if their religion was used as an aesthetic. Im sure many who practice Hinduism or Buddhism have experienced their religion being used as an aesthetic in fashion/ life/art. Either way, I think you discussed this topic very respectfully with a lot of knowledge!! 👏🏼👏🏼
Never expected my childhood religion to be a fashion aesthetic
Sorry but 'My childhood religion' is a funny phrase lol, you made it sound like it was just a little local thing and not the largest religion in the world
Childhood? You’ve lost something my friend. 😔
@@riveriris7604is it? I thought the evangelical groups ate numbering out the catholics now
@@sandraankenbrand Maybe in some small countries in Central America but not globally.
@@sandraankenbrandOnly in America, in terms of the world, a little more than half of the world's Christians identify as Catholic. The rest are either Protestant or Orthodox. As for the individual Protestant groups, that makes each even smaller.
this title is something else 😭 I am SO excited to watch
Your amazing, I saw this trending on my feed and YT recommendations
I was raised Catholic and I am a nun. For me, the main difference is respect. If a fashion designer uses Catholic imagery in a respectful way, I have no problem with it. Sadly, that's not always the case. For example I don't like, when people wear rosaries as necklaces. It's for prayer, the beads help to count how many Hail Marys you have already said. Other religions, for example Buddhism also have similar prayer-beads (sorry, I don't know the English term for those). So wearing them as necklaces kinda.misses the point. It's not offensive, but is kinda disrespecting.
The 2018 MET Gala was also a mixed bag for me. For example I really liked Zendaya's outfit, I found it creative, how she took inspiration from Joan of Arc (who is a canonised Catholic saint). On the other hand I didn't liked Rihanna's outfit, because she sort of sexualised and mocked liturgic garments, which in my opinion disrespects the rich history, tradition and symbolism of a bishop's clothing.
I agree with you, but sometimes I think about this thought. I am a recent believer, while my fiancé has always been a believer. When we met I was an atheist but he gave me a miraculous medal anyway, objectively it is an aesthetically nice object to look at and it reminded me of him and the thought that he had given me something so that the Madonna would protect me. Maybe some may have seen it as disrespectful but for me it was a way to remind me that my fiancé was thinking of me. Then there were days when I was very afraid of dying, and a cross or a medal sometimes even if you are not a very believer it helps you to remember to pray. Then of course I come from a cultural catholic country so sometimes you see people wearing crucifixes or medals because they were their grandmother's, or some relative who died to keep it close to them. So to me it doesn't seem so strange
@@mirandapellegrini1953 Thank's for sharing your story! I hadn't thought about that! This really gives a new perspective for me. I grew up in a rather religious environment, so everyone knew at least the basics and thus using rosaries, miraculous medals, etc. in a non-religious way seemed strange. So I didn't tought, that it can be seen like this. Thank you!
Hi. I don't need to make a confession however I do want to say this video taught me a lot about an upbringing I didn't have. It helps to learn. Thanks!
At turtle creek (the gaybourhood) in Dallas at Halloween, there's always a dude in full pope garb and he helps direct traffic when the clubs shut down and the parade is over
Bruh i been thete
Sending love from Lourdes, France for all your great videos Mina ❤🙏🍾🥂
As a european Lutheran who grew Up in the catholic Bit of Germany, the assumption that performativity is a social Media Generation Thing is a Bit of a weird Take.
Where im from, being catholic or Protestant is mostly performative. People baptise their Kids because of Tradition and because its what grandma wants. People get married in church because its a cute church and also Tradition. Hell, i got confirmed because my mum kept bugging me about my job chances later. Kids got communion because of the presents. People Go to church on Christmas because of Tradition.
A huge Factor that Led to me being an Atheist was the performativity i saw in the people around me. Performing catholicism makes sense to me in that context, it created meaning in the Community, even If you font believe in it.
Yeah same in Croatia, its kind of annoying really. If I were a priest I wouldn’t allow kids to do such serious stuff like that only for presents and money
I'm American and agree. My mom became a Wiccan partly because of all the hypocrisy she would see in the church and because of her and my atheist dad I usually see it in the same way.
Then your point of view is flawed. It’s not only performative when you get something out of it. If nothing else, it’s just an excuse to do stuff together, and I don’t understand how that can be a bad thing. Religious zealots are another thing.
Hahahaha i feel you so much, though I'm from a catholic family in a catholic area in Germany. My most intense church going days were literally because I had to in order to go to Communion (is that the right expression??) and i did it because I wanted a guitar and still my parents were disappointed when I exited the church because what if i want to get married lol. For years we haven't even been going to church on Christmas or Easter, maybe the odd funeral, yet my dad pays for basically the church newsletter because what if other people would notice he's not 😮.
However I do kinda love the aesthetics 😂. Like a good stained glass window or a gothic church or something.
@@thesealky6445 Why would seeing hypocrites in the church make your mother become a wiccan? Lol the vast majority of those who claim to be "wiccan" or any other kind of pagan only do so because they like the aesthetics of paganism, and not because they actually believe in it. They're literally guilty of the exact same "hypocrisy" that your mother claimed to hate about Catholics.
I am a practicing Catholic from a historically and culturally Catholic country and have been attending the traditional Latin mass for the last couple of years (which is the rite before the second Vatican council). I‘ve noticed that the TLM and more traditional Catholicism has become more and more popular amongst younger people of my generation (early 20s), though there are still large and thriving communities at modern parishes. This connects to fashion in a way since the (generally quite young) priests at my TLM parish wear cassocks and overall adhere to the traditional rules way closer than what is the norm in post-Vatican-II rites. Some women at my parish also wear mantillas, which are lacy veils during mass. On another note: I am deeply fascinated by the hot-priest-cinematic-universe 😂
Thank you for commenting on this topic in such a nuanced and respectful way ☺️
lovely video. thank you mina !!!
Thank you for being respectful!!
27:55 that is a paraphrase of a line from St. Mother Theresa of Calcutta, who said that in times of unbelief, rituals and religious observances can bring you closer to God even if you lack assertive faith. Practicing the norms of the religion, she said, can carry you through “the dark night of the soul.”
Mother Theresa was a monster tho
@@martapawluczuk2108 no she wasn’t. That is a myth.
She's so fascinating... arguably the most well-known nun outside of the Catholic sphere, and yet in all of her personal writings she's like, "wow, sure wish I could feel God's presence just once in my life, really jealous of how it seems to come naturally to everyone else around me, I don't really believe in any of this but I really want to". Genuinely echoes how I feel a lot of the time.
@@carsonianthegreat4672 no, it's well documented that she basically tortured the poor people in her care and embezzled the money that was raised for them. catholicism (and generally all religions) cannot die fast enough.
@carsonianthegreat4672 ooohh, she was. Documented and flat out fact. Explored in detail in "The Missionary Position" by Christopher Hitchens.
Me, a southern italian, used to crosses and Holy Marys everywhere, looking at "catholic-core":
... Wtf. That's my nonna's room, literally.
È lo stesso in Croazia lol
mia nonna ha grandi quadri di Maria e un gran rosario sul parete della sua camera da letto e il suo soggiorno è anche pieno dei quadri, sculture e ha anche un calendario cattolico
@@Pollicina_db sincero, mi fa ridere come alcuni americani vedono qualsiasi cosa che non sia hamburger, jeep e statua della libertà come ✨️esotico✨️ e ✨️core✨️ , e per noi è la più normale delle normalità lolol
same in france lol, feels weird..
#Nonacore
LITERALLLYYYY
Sometimes I forget how much I love your videos…
Another amazing take queen you’ve done it again
As a person who was raised Christian but was also born and raised in countries that were colonized in the name of the Catholic Church, I feel like there are not enough discussions about how Catholicism and other branches of Christianity also function as a sort of kingdom/political state. You can especially tell by the levels of grandeur that are within the infrastructure of the churches and how they supplied it with the communities tithes and the resources that were stolen from the places they colonized Like many corrupt countries and politicians, the corrupt churches used those resources for their institutional indulgences instead using it to help the poor/marginalized within their public’s communities.
I’m only a few episodes in but the new show Shogun explores this a little! very Interesting and underrated you’re right
@@vasbel1207where do you watch this? this sounds so interesting wow
And this is exactly why I don't care about using Catholic imagery and design outside of the religion. Raised Catholic over here and there's a reason I left.
You do realize that the Catholic Church is one of the largest charity organizations on earth right? Before the social support systems of today, the Church established hospitals, universities, orphanages, and so on so forth. The greatest commands are to love God and love your neighbor. We may not always get it right but that is why we need God’s grace. The Church is indefectible and perfect while we are not. God be with you.
@@BabaCorva You left because the Church is full of imperfect people? Why if anything that is even more reason to remain in it. For we are all sinners striving towards the path to holiness. And it is only within the fullness of the Church that this may be fully understood. I invite you to reconsider and as always God be with you.
As a practicing catholic thank you so much for handling this topic with respect.🫶🏻 love from mexico
I grew up Roman Catholic and went to a Catholic school my entire life. I do art and sometimes make fashion designs based on Catholicism, while still retaining the importance of respect toward the religion as a whole. It has always disgusted me when people would make sexualized versions of religious figures for shows, movies, designs, or really anything. There is a beauty to the “aesthetic” of Catholicism, but it should be tread on lightly as it is a real religion and belief of many. This is an amazing video that explained both the history of the Catholic Church along with the inspiration many pop culture icons get from it, and the level of respect you had while covering the topic was immaculate! Keep up the amazing work
As a Catholic born and raised my religion is not an aesthetic more than anybody else’s religion is an aesthetic. And the thing that bothers me is that people wouldn’t do these same things to Islamic or Jewish symbols. Sabrina carpenter would not film in a mosque.
Bffr, your religion has stolen and appropriate all the traditional European culture and paganism, then labeling as "satanic". People are allowed to criticise Christianity because they have oppressed their whole life. Take for example European folklore, all of this erased thanks to Christianity
your so right! it's so biased.
to use the fact that the church has done so much bad stuff (which they have for sure) as an excuse to disrespect the religion is just fighting fire with fire, Jesus didn't do anything evil so why should he be hated, alongside the many devout Christians who are not to blame at all.
respect is earnt with respect.
It's just not as beautiful.
omg in my social media , people can't wear a scarf , that is an Islamic symbol right away. it's dumb.
but you are so right, even in Dune they did some horrible cultural appropriation in Islamic culture.
@@leopard2aneth625 idk mosque are pretty stunning
I always find fascinating when people outside from the catholic sphere rediscover aspects of Catholicism. As a Mexican raised catholic, all this simbolism, architecture and aesthetics are often taken for granted to the point where is not eye shocking anymore. At least where I live, there is nothing new in people wearing metal crosses or religious symbols (such as Jesus, Mary, any saints). Also, on the note of the "alternative" catholic youth, I find it HILARIOUS how they perform this edgy kind of thing when here the fervient catholic youths are percieved as a mix of corny and prude (Source: my young sister is a really devoted catholic involved in many groups for the young and ALSO I only went to Catholic schools and the high school popular kids were the most "devoted" and involved and also the cringiest and corny of the bunch)
That’s one of the things that I can’t stand about when I do go to church: the showiness.
In my experience and by what my parents told me the ones who are closests to the altar sin the most, but do not realise it lol so its not like they’re genuinely repenting.
I can only stomach going on a mass when its Christmas, Palm Sunday, Easter and Grand Lady (idk what its called in english but its in august).
@@Pollicina_db same, ever since I moved out I've only attended mass for such festivities (you know, for the family) and funerals, after going every Sunday against my will this is a breath of fresh air honestly
Yes, some of this catholic esthetic is giving grandma to me. But maybe thats cool? Lol idk, I'm probably not cool enough to know.
akdjfdks same here. i'm like, what's the big deal about the catholic aesthetics? it can look very nice, yes, but "edgy" is not something that that it's really giving, lol
I think it stems from the US never being a catholic country, the catholics where I’m from are seen as very depressing, doom and gloom. Because we had a reformation of the church.
Catholic Nun here . Thank yu for posting this .
what is it like being a nun? i am considering becoming one. do you get to go out ever? are you allowed any unnecessary possessions?
As a Catholic, what bothers me the most is taking Catholic religious symbols or our lady and our Lord Jesus and turning it into a very immodest outfit. Including the sexualization of nun's .
"People care about sincerity" ... YES!!!
As an Irish person who's not Catholic, I find the iconography and its use to be so interesting. Ireland was a notoriously Catholic country and the presence of organised religion here can be directly linked to injustices such as the Magdalene laundries, which were perpetrated and perpetuated under the justification that they were morally right.
Personally, I see using Catholic symbols and language as a means of reclaiming a kind of power and calling out hypocrisy [I think that Hozier's songs Moment's Silence and Take Me To Church are great examples of this and I'd recommend watching interviews where he speaks on this] but I can also understand that every country and every individual has a unique relationship with religion.
Great video as always! 💛
I like this take (as someone who was raised in an evangelical church but comes from a family where the older generations are Catholic). I find it impossible to separate the Catholic Church from the crimes they committed and covered up especially when it comes to pedophilia, misogyny, violent bigotry against marginalised communities like LGBTIQ+ people & invasion/ colonization. Their doctrine on condoms has actively contributed to the AIDS epidemic. I think respect is earned. I don’t think the Catholic Church (as an institution) has done enough work to show they genuinely see why that was wrong and won’t repeat those cycles of harm.
I wanna make it super clear my issue is with the Catholic Church not with individuals. Although I suspect even with that caveat my take isn’t popular.
Reclaiming Catholic symbols & language to call out hypocrisy & asserting power is the most interesting & relevant way to explore Catholic aesthetics imo. Like the aesthetics are interesting & beautiful but I’m interested in how it’s subverted then how it’s used by the Vatican to codify their power.
i’m white passing mixed indigenous and kalderash/ruska roma and i really appreciate your take, i fully agree. i grew up christian and no longer attend church and consider myself an agnostic who does partake in a bit of cultural judaism as appreciation for my polish ashkenazim maternal roots alongside indigenous traditional practices to reconnect and admire islam(specifically the sunni hanafi school of jurisprudence which is common with eurasian muslims like the tatar diaspora) but i was in a pretty liberal protestant denomination and have a great great maternal grandfather who was a pentecostal priest who got sent to a labour camp by the ussr for hiding jews in his barn and smuggling copies of the bible across the border so i don’t have any personal connection with catholicism other than the colonial legacy it holds over indigenous canadians especially the mi’kmaq and inuit who are communities i belong to, but i use catholic and even russian orthodox themes in my artwork as a way of processing my own religious trauma and the intergenerational trauma and violence embedded in my dna and as reclamation of power and criticism of the hypocrisy the church holds as well as appreciation of the art and symbology used in the religious institutions. coincidentally i’m a hozier fan too and take me to church was very influential to me when i was growing up, but im also a fan of the metal band Ghost which also uses catholic imagery language and iconography for their music as lore building and criticism of organized religion. but even still i can acknowledge catholicism is perceived in different parts of the world and that’s okay too, as long as there is still room to have an open discussion about the harms the church has done and how damaging manifest destiny and terra nullius doctrine has been towards indigenous peoples and to uplift indigenous voices in the end. both can exist i think
@@MrVevletmany of those catholic priests were members of the LGBT community. Funny how that gets magically overlooked.
I don't see how normalizing and popularizing the aesthetics of Catholicism reclaims any power from it. Making it cool isn't rebellious. We wouldn't say the same about wearing Third Reich uniforms to look stylish or edgy, but somehow no one sees Catholic dress this way.
@@NShomebaseas an irish ex-catholic like op up there, it's context-dependent. the treatment of a thing that had such power over everyone here with irreverence/traditionally-considered disrespect or incorrectness, that's the rebellion (also i mean you say third reich uniforms wouldn't be considered stylish or edgy, but they were designed to look that way and are understood to have been? the luxury brands that powered the reich are still luxury brands today)