Fate and Free Will in the Story of Turin Turambar
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2024
- In my previous video ( • Fate and Free Will in ... ) I discussed the general concept of fate vs. free will. Here I explore how those two factors (plus a third!) all shape the narrative of a particular story-that of Turin Turambar (“master of fate”).
Apologies for the slightly sloppy execution; I was a bit rushed getting this one out, hence all the background noise!
GirlNextGondor has done her own video on this topic too: • Video
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Turin's story is so tragic, but he's a really fascinating character!
He's like the star high school jock who has no idea what a dumbass he is or the war hero who gets lots of people killed along the way. I've met both kinds.
Aaalphoooonse!!!
I've been attracted to the story since I first read the Simarillion many years ago. It is clearly one that Tolkien repeatedly revisited throughout his adult life.
The MVP of the Children of Hurin is Glaurung. This chip off the ole Morgoth burns foes, poisons places, and makes elves run for cover. His Jedi Mind Tricks are clever and irresistible to the weak minded. I always imagine him singing the "I made you bang your brother" song and reaching out to taste Nienor's tears of infinite sadness to make her want to take that last leap. I always got the sense that Glaurung enjoyed his job and was having a great time massacring the Children of Eru and just roaming Beleriand being a general prick.
...so I'm not the only one who imagines Glaurung with Cartman's voice?...
@@GirlNextGondor You are not. I'm pretty sure the last thing Fingon heard little G say after peppering him with arrows on the Ard-galen was, "Screw you guys. I'm going home!" as he went running back to Angband. If Gurthang wasn't buried hilt deep in his gut, Turin would have gotten the "I made you screw your sister" song and dance.
Such a great description!! I wish I could give you two "likes."😁
You sure have a morbid sense of humor. I am a bit unsure what you mean. I get the Dragon understanding, you know what a Dragon really is, and that is kind of rare for some reason. Most people think Dragons are just fire breathing lizards. But they are much more than that, as I see you know, so I don`t need to tell you what they are like in mythology. I just don`t understand what you are trying to say, or why you say that. LOL ,I don`t even know how to explain myself!!
It is funny that if Turin had stopped waffling around and had just taken Beleg and some other stalwart friends from Doriath and picked his Mom and Sister from Hithlum, that is all he would have needed to do.
That being said, I cannot blame him too much for fighting against orcs and such. It might have been personally foolish, and definitely with Nargothrond it ended up in a tragedy for everyone, but if I recall correctly (at least in Silmarillion), it is implied that his personal war against Morgoth did have some positive impacts on the wider world.
For example: "Thence the road went on into the Guarded Plain; but the Orcs did not go far upon it, as yet, for there dwelt now in the wild a terror that was hidden, and upon the red hill were watchful eyes of which they had not been warned. For Túrin put on again the Helm of Hador; and far and wide in Beleriand the whisper went, under wood and over stream and through the passes of the hills, saying that the Helm and Bow that had fallen in Dimbar had arisen again beyond hope. Then many who went leaderless, dispossessed but undaunted, took heart again, and came to seek the Two Captains. Dor-Cúarthol, the Land of Bow and Helm, was in that time named all the region between Teiglin and the west march of Doriath; and Túrin named himself anew, Gorthol, the Dread Helm, and his heart was high again. In Menegroth, and in the deep halls of Nargothrond, and even in the hidden realm of Gondolin, the fame of the deeds of the Two Captains was heard; and in Angband also they were known. Then Morgoth laughed, for now by the Dragon-helm was Húrin's son revealed to him again; and ere long Amon Rûdh was ringed with spies."
So at least for a time, the orcish raids further south to the hinterlands of Beleriand were hampered.
The sallying forth by the elves of Nargothrond also had some temporary positive effects, but not, IMHO, enough to justify the sacrifice of Nargothrond itself: "Then the servants of Angband were driven out of all the land between Narog and Sirion eastward, and westward to the Nenning and the desolate Falas;"
Also, it is this pushing back of orcs that allows Morwen and Nienor to travel to Doriath: "In that time of respite and hope, when because of the deeds of the Mormegil the power of Morgoth was stemmed west of Sirion, Morwen fled at last from Dor-lómin with Nienor her daughter, and adventured the long journey to Thingol's halls."
And indeed, had King Orodreth and his council taken Ulmo's warning to heart and destroyed the bridge and hidden themselves again, this would have been a net good. Alas, they didn't, on Turin's advice. Not only that, but had they chosen wisdom and hiding again, eventually the word would have traveled between Doriath and Nargothrond that Morwen and Nienor were in Doriath. They only left Doriath after the destruction of Nargothrond, traveling there in an effort to find Turin.
Finally, in Brethil, his efforts to ambush the orcs was a good thing, guarding the woodsmen's homes. However, he should have left the Black Sword home. It is that which brought Morgoth's and Glaurung's attention back to him and Brethil. But fighting the orcs as such was a good thing.
I think Turin making dumb choices is really the point of his downfall, especially if we consider that most of his foolishness stemmed from pride and vengeance, which is something we know Tolkien tends to view as a path to destruction (unlike the humility and general good heart of someone like Sam in LOTR). Great video, as always.
An excellent treatment of the topic, I'm glad you waited to watch mine because now we have independent confirmation that it's all Turin's fault. 😂 Okay maybe not ALL, but seriously, man....
Your breakdown of which events were fated, which were choice, which were Morgoth's malice, and which were ambivalent (can we really blame Turin for being impulsive and reactive when his early life was so tough?) threatened to send me down a rabbit hole, because as you say, the more detailed the version of the story, the more factors and microdecisions need to be examined. Like a horrible, horrible fractal of spiraling Bad Choices.
One divergence between us is that I generally take Turin's attempts to conceal his identity (not necessarily from Morgoth but from his allies) as themselves bad decisions that facilitate bad things happening. Thingol hears that there's a great captain in Nargothrond but doesn't connect the dots that it's Turin until after it's sacked, so Morwen and Nienor ALSO don't know - maybe if they had, they would have sent word to Nargothrond so Turin wouldn't have wasted time seeking them in Dor-lomin, and maybe without that extra shock factor they would have listened to Thingol and not ridden out straight into the literal dragon's lair. It's when she learns of Turin's identity that Nienor/Niniel starts to hesitate over marrying him, which (if he hadn't forced the issue by threatening to go risk his life again) might have delayed their Doomful Union. Turin's so emotionally fragile that, even though he feels guilt, he can't reflect honestly on his role in all this and keeps externalizing his 'bad luck' as being tied to his name, when it's really parts of his identity that need changing.
Finally, Mablung is the Unsung Hero of Children of Hurin and deserves more attention and probably a raise. I love Beleg but he just has to deal with one Hurinion, and he dies relatively painlessly before things get too bad; Mablung's gotta deal with TWO of them at Peak Doominess.
Poor Mablung. And you can tell he even knows what’s coming and is so frustrated by all the idiots in the family surrounding him. 😂
Incidentally I agree Turin is hiding his identity from others, not just his curse, but he does specifically tell Gwindor he probably brought the curse down on him by revealing his name to Finduilas. I think Turin really does think of the curse as a magic hex, which imo it isn’t.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Exactly, I think he NEEDS to believe in some kind of magic hex because otherwise, the bad things that happen to him are either unavoidable, or his fault, and I don't think he can accept either answer 😂 poor guy.
I would contend that it is all the fault of Eru, but that while true is also trite (unless done with the black humor of Douglas Adams).
On a more serious note, I would agree that all of Túrin's major choices are the wrong ones, but that evil scenarios framing those choice were the fault of Morgoth and not Túrin.
@@TolkienLorePodcast
Tolkien doesn't clarify how the curses in the Legendarium work. As a Christian, I believe the curses that exist in the real world are facilitated by demonic spirits, but these spirits need to be invited into the person they possess, or the person has to be willing to act or think in such a way as to activate the curse. In either case, no one should be blaming a curse for anything bad that happens in their lives. They need to own up to their bad decisions and take personal responsibility.
Excellent and very convincing video, but I think there is one thing you and Lexi did not bring up that I think is an essential part of your argument.
Turin fostered by Thingol, who only did this because Turin was the son of Hurin and the rightful heir of his father's kingdom in Dor Lomin. So Turin was raised to be a warrior who could gain back his kingdom one day and a king who could lead his people one day. Unless the Elves of Doriath went outside the Girdle of Melian to kill Orcs for sport, it seems obvious to me that Beleg took Turin out there for "training" purposes. We know that Turin was also raised in the lore of the Elves and learned everything. They would have told him details of his father's bravery and heroism. He SHOULD HAVE had an overwhelming desire to make his father proud and to set his heart and goal on reestablishing the kingdom. I strongly believe that this was supposed to be "his fate." This, I believe, was what Eru had wanted for him since his birth. I strongly feel that had Turin followed this "fate," he would have freed Dor Lomin from the Easterlings and reestablished his father's Kingdom. But ALAS! Turin had free choice to live his life and Eru did not interfere with his choices.
How do I know Turin didn't give a rat's you-know-what about his father's Kingdom? The first time he shows any concern for the safety and lives of the people there is when GLAURUNG brought to Turin's attention the choice of Morwen or Finduilas; and Turin chose Morwen probably because he was under the "Dragon Spell." 😆 Also, he could have stayed in Dor Lomin and fought with his people, believing that Elves had safely escorted his mom and sister to Menegroth. Nevertheless, his father's kingdom never entered into his mind. In fact, Turin made such a mess of things that his people likely got wiped out or put in chains and lived under harsher conditions for the rest of their lives.
I DO, however, believe that Morgoth's Curse was real. Curses and blessing are real to Christians, so I believe that Tolkien meant for Morgoth's Curse to have impact on Turin's life. But I also believe that Turin's original sin of pride manifesting itself in this self-absorption paved the way for the curse to do its damage in his life and subsequently the lives of others.
All that said, I believe that Eru was able to create wonderful deeds that came about as a result of Turin's bad decision-making. The Children of Hurin story allows us to see more clearly what Eru meant when He said to Melkor:
"Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
From Ainulindale, in The Silmarillion
I think the reason why choosing Finduilas is more than simply him merely settling down and not continuously outing himself (though that does play a large role). I think one reason Gwindor tells him he'll break free from his curse should he make a positive choice, one that his father would have made, and him choosing others rather than what he wants. The matter falling I think to him foregoing what he wants in the short-term to do what is best long-term. What is more, I think is that being wise Finduilas would know how to overcome the curse and help him.
Basically, maybe it was a matter of choosing to be more positive, think more positively, and choose consciously to be more akin to his father, in choosing good, duty and humility.
Anyways just one correction; it is Sigurdr and the dragon not Sigmundr. Sigmundr is Sigurdr's father.
But such a great video this one was weirdly hilarious, Turin's tale is a depressing one yet I found myself laughing throughout some of the sad parts you have an incredible gift for comedy my friend. This might just be my favourite video on this topic.
I don't think the curse was the main reason for his downfall, it definitely played a role but Morgoth was scared that he might overcome it so its definitely implied that the curse had a loophole in a sense. I always wondered how he was able to curse Hurin and his kin. I always thought he poured his essence over his family so all the negative qualities that was within Morgoth was used to poison them. There are moments in the text such as when Turin was attacked by the elf in Doriath and how the text describes Turin's anger and it sorta feels like it is foreign to Turin as a person. Just my theory.
Morgoth seeded Arda with his evil and malice, so anything is possible for him.
It is interesting how Tuor's life, although filled with challenges, counterbalanced his cousin's. Perhaps Morgoth's focus on Hurin's family took his eyes of of Tuor.
Morgoth definitely knew that Hurin and Huor had spent time in Gondolin. I'm pretty sure that Morgoth knew Huor was killed in the same battle that Hurin got captured in, so in his mind he would have no interest in Huor's children.
One of the main points you make is that Túrin does all his fighting because he wants to make a safe path for Morwen and Nienor out of Dor-lomin. When Beleg finds him among the outlaws he refuses to return to Doriath, so he puts his own pride before the safety of his mother and sister. Additionally he never sends a rescue party (maybe led by Beleg) or something like that from his Dor Cúarthol or later in Nargothrond to Dor-lomin to get them, so this whole point totally falls apart. The first person to actually make him spring to action is Glaurung who obviously knows that Túrin being the trainwreck he is can cause more damage than a dragon passing through.
Great discussion and discourse on Turin! It is funny - even though he’s technically a “goodie” and many empathetic bits to his plight and character (and of course the overarching threat of a vengeful Satan entity) - Turin is such a self indulgent petulant *ickhead! It’s a really intriguing mix of fate/bad luck and self sabotage! Also intriguing as I think he is essentially the male version of his mother Morwen who again is portrayed as overly proud/sensitive and pessimistic - he seems to unfortunately to take much of his formative character traits from her (although strong onus of family and friendship also) - really complex antiohero - so introverted and self obsessed no idea of how his actions and agency impact others or their ramifications for middle Earth as a whole!
again great summary fella! Love these debates
This was certainly entertaining.
I had read it as that Morgoth has knowledge of the song or chorus which laid out the Supreme's will with respect to the world. Similar to Galadriel's speech to Frodo upon her mirror: "what is, what could be". I also keep in mind the New Testament "chance and circumstances comes to every man". So fate would be mutable in ME as in our world. The curse of Morgoth would be informed by that being's view of the chorus and it's revelation. The black blade has its own fate, which is different than the fate a man or elf might have. But yes, it's dude's fault.
So basically Morgoth's curse on Hurin's family and Turin in particular mostly amounted to "this young punk is going to make all the wrong choices if Glaurung and I just put some well-timed pressure on him"? 😂
Seems pretty accurate lol.
You made a good video and made some great points. Other people made excellent comments and I will not take their credit.
It is just, I know Turin made a lot of dumb decisions, but I can not help but think Turin and his family were dealt a bad hand in life and Morgoth was the dealer.
Well, the wars definitely adversely affected the whole family and the people of Dor Lomin, but Turin never really took personal responsibility for anything he did until the end, when he killed himself.
I see the story of Turin Turambar as a Sophoclean tragedy, repeated over and other again as everything he does starts well and ends badly (much like the Noldorin exiles). His tragic flaws are pride and rashness; and yes, all of his misfortunes after his arrival in Doriath are indeed his fault; though he certainly had help; not least from Morgoth and his agent, Glaurung.
Look man, when you got a God-tier magic Helm and a +5 Legendary Sword, you can't just leave that gear at home.
Would you consider (or recommend) a video on the role of women in the life of Turin? With a special focus on Nellas and whatever veil prevented Turin from perceiving her/them clearly
Maybe someday, but that’s a complex topic which is largely psychoanalysis and I’m not sure I’m equipped for that 😅
Very good talk.
Turin is Tolkien's great anti-hero; but I think he was Tolkien's favorite character (even outranking Beren and Luthien). Note that in the posthumously published "Prophecy of Mandos", it is the resurrected Turin who kills Morgoth in the final battle with the apparently reforged Gurthang.
I do wish that had made the “Final Cut” lol
Turin could be convicted in court for the killing of Brandir
Yes, but in the USA that would be Murder in the Second Degree, not premeditated.
@@Enerdhil I was actually wondering which degree of murder it would be. It was definately a totally unjustified murder on Turin's part, rather shocking the first time I read it.
@@waltonsmith7210
Yes. I was not really shocked by Turin killing Brandir because you could feel the tension between these two building up before that scene. In fact, after he killed him, I thought, "It figures." It fit right in with everything else he did.
Not gonna lie, the kids are really noisy.
Yeah I didn’t have many good opportunities to get the video done so I had to work with what I had. 😅
Maybe I misunderstood something (and I haven't read Children of Hurin) but from your video I deduce that Turin purposefully kept changing his name to avoid Morgoth's curse. But how did Turin actually know about the curse? His father couldn't possibly have warned him (or Morwen) that Morgoth cursed his family right?
Excellent video as always sir!
Gwindor at one point tells him it’s believed Morgoth cursed his family, so somehow that news got out, likely Morgoth doing it for his own purposes.
@@TolkienLorePodcast
That and could see bad things happening to him.
Turin was a real jerk
Unfortunately @GirlNextGondor has made her video private. I don't know why, but support her choice. Just want to alert Tolkien Lore and others about it.
It’s been reuploaded. I just saw it today.
Was never down with the whole curse idea
if he had married Finduilas, he would not have married Nienor.
First. :)