I'm quite prejudiced here, but ... you get to ignore my reasoning if you wish. When I was investigating horns to upgrade from my student Olds to a pro horn, Bach 42 open rap was the horn every serious player in this area was playing. Edwards had just come out with a new horn with a miracle valve that was the best thing since sliced bread AND running water. Half the pros here ditched their Bachs for this new Edwards. I, without an exception at the time found the Edwards to have a whooshy, airy sound with no core. At least the Bach 42 had a core, granted a different core for every single note, so depending upon your POV, you either got a uniform response and airy sound with no core or you got a "Bach sound". When looking t bass trombones (around 1993) I tried the standard then Holton Bass that a Chicago friend of mine had. I could not get a decent sound on it with his Holton mouthpiece. Sounded dead, no resonance. So I got the then standard Bach independent 50-OG (open wrap, gold brass bell) with a LT slide. Hated the slide at first playing. Hated the horn, which got worse and worse the longer I played it. Same problems as the 42. No uniformity in response or core. But EVERYONE was playing this at the time. Same phenomena also - then came the Edwards and all were ditching Bach for airy, fuzzy sounding Edwards and "seeing the light". At the same time, Branimar Slokar was the big name in trombone playing and teaching world here and everyone only played Slokar mouthpieces. I had my own collection and settled on a 4 type Slokar for the tenor and a huge, deep monster Slokar for bass bone, 'cause - everyone plays as big as you can find. For me, sucky horns with impossible mouthpieces. I'd wanted Yamaha from day one because I'd heard a couple trumpets and trombones and simply liked the horns sounds but like EVERYONE said "Can't play Yamaha loud, they get shrill". Never heard that, but EVERYONE said that. After fighting the Bachs and Slokar combinations for 20 years with 3 stops and restarts (longer breaks), I decided to finally go for it. The local trombone Prof lives in Berlin and plays there, but has his class in Basel and got tired schlepping his horns to Basel, so bought both of my Bachs ("These are nice horns - play typically Bach style on my mouthpieces) and I bought my Yamaha Xeno 822g dependent, just because NO ONE thought it was a good horn except ... Doug Yeo and couple of others - kinda like Ed Tarr loved Yamaha trumpets at the time. I also started on the Yamaha 59 Mouthpiece and it was ok, better than Slokar pieces, but not great. Then, on a whim and because Dr. Dave offers a 90 day money back guarantee, I ordered a Wedge 2G and Wedge 1.5G. Epiphany. NOW I was getting the sound I wanted with the core I was looking for EXCEPT....2G was way too small, so no bottom. 1.5G was a good size, but that core was a little brittle and hard - and only 2/3 of the bottom register. Then I tried the Wedge S59 (got my money back for the 2G) and while it was a tad too large - only being able to dependably get up to f from any note in any situation, there was nothing else better. I had a Hammond 21BL, but it was just way too large. Better lowest range, no high register. Notice my descriptions of the tonal differences of the above mouthpieces.... 6 weeks ago I broke down and bought a Wedge 108 Gen 2, which is a half tad larger than a Bach 1.5G. Nice piece Almost has the darkness of the Wedge S59 with the slotting almost like the Wedge 1.5G. Now I've ordered the Wedge 110G, which in terms of specs seems somewhere btween the Bach 1.5G and 1.25G. Terrific slotting like a 1.5G, wide, deep dark cored sound without fuzziness. Long story shorter: People taking their Bach mouthpieces to Edwards horns in the 90's got lousy trombone sounds, both on tenor and bass. Slokar got his mouthpieces working well with Bach horns, but they didn't work as well with my Yamaha. Yamaha mouthpieces worked ok on Yamaha 822g (the 58 is still a great mouthpiece for the Creation and I'd really have to test both the Wedge 110 against it if I ever had to play the piece). And my Wedge 110 Gen 2 is finally the one that gives me the better sound and response combination. Both horns and mouthpieces are so individual, that it's probably only valid to express ones own experiences with different combinations. Some folks LOVE Yamaha jazz trombones, both for sound and response. I don't play jazz. I don't get the idea that a Yamaha sound is boring, because the mouthpiece I can use with it effects the basic sound of the instrument I get, I can't just speak of one specific sound. I started with a horn I admired when others played and then sought the piece that got me closest on that horn in terms of sound while also giving me the response I want. but the same Yamaha is a sound-Chameleon, depending upon what mouthpiece I use.
Aidan, I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw you pick up my old Bach T3L. At least I'm pretty certain it's my old one. Orla Ed Thayer vales right and 10.5" bell minus lacquer right? I had it customized back in 2001. If you'd like to know more about the axe, let me know!
Nice review, was especially happy that you reviewed the yamaha...... I'm in the market for a good 2nd hand bass and you helped me with what not to choose 😎👍
I preferred the sound of the Holton TR185. I’m thinking you might solve the lower range problem by unwrapping the attachment. That’s what I did with my TR180. Thanks for the video
I have thought about having an open wrap D slide- the problem is that finding the right size attachment tubing! The offset required is only found at one spot on one instrument, the 180, and so is very rare. Opening the wrap on the F attachment would require similar pieces, and would ruin the setup with the 2nd valve... so not many options! Honestly, it plays fine for what it is, it's just not the feel I would prefer to have.
Holton horns are quite underrated, IMO. They have a nice, full sound and are quite rounded. You can push brightness into the sound or you can coax a nice, mellow, dark tone. They're great! I miss the one I played in HS (it was a school horn and honestly, I liked it more than the 3062AF that they had).
Hi Aidan, I have a quick question… For Greg Black mouthpieces, do these mouthpieces have flat rims compared to Bach mouthpieces and also are the bites on the mouthpieces more gradual or do they have a sharp bite? Thanks so much!!!
I'm quite prejudiced here, but ... you get to ignore my reasoning if you wish.
When I was investigating horns to upgrade from my student Olds to a pro horn, Bach 42 open rap was the horn every serious player in this area was playing. Edwards had just come out with a new horn with a miracle valve that was the best thing since sliced bread AND running water. Half the pros here ditched their Bachs for this new Edwards. I, without an exception at the time found the Edwards to have a whooshy, airy sound with no core. At least the Bach 42 had a core, granted a different core for every single note, so depending upon your POV, you either got a uniform response and airy sound with no core or you got a "Bach sound".
When looking t bass trombones (around 1993) I tried the standard then Holton Bass that a Chicago friend of mine had. I could not get a decent sound on it with his Holton mouthpiece. Sounded dead, no resonance. So I got the then standard Bach independent 50-OG (open wrap, gold brass bell) with a LT slide. Hated the slide at first playing. Hated the horn, which got worse and worse the longer I played it. Same problems as the 42. No uniformity in response or core. But EVERYONE was playing this at the time. Same phenomena also - then came the Edwards and all were ditching Bach for airy, fuzzy sounding Edwards and "seeing the light".
At the same time, Branimar Slokar was the big name in trombone playing and teaching world here and everyone only played Slokar mouthpieces. I had my own collection and settled on a 4 type Slokar for the tenor and a huge, deep monster Slokar for bass bone, 'cause - everyone plays as big as you can find.
For me, sucky horns with impossible mouthpieces. I'd wanted Yamaha from day one because I'd heard a couple trumpets and trombones and simply liked the horns sounds but like EVERYONE said "Can't play Yamaha loud, they get shrill". Never heard that, but EVERYONE said that.
After fighting the Bachs and Slokar combinations for 20 years with 3 stops and restarts (longer breaks), I decided to finally go for it. The local trombone Prof lives in Berlin and plays there, but has his class in Basel and got tired schlepping his horns to Basel, so bought both of my Bachs ("These are nice horns - play typically Bach style on my mouthpieces) and I bought my Yamaha Xeno 822g dependent, just because NO ONE thought it was a good horn except ... Doug Yeo and couple of others - kinda like Ed Tarr loved Yamaha trumpets at the time. I also started on the Yamaha 59 Mouthpiece and it was ok, better than Slokar pieces, but not great. Then, on a whim and because Dr. Dave offers a 90 day money back guarantee, I ordered a Wedge 2G and Wedge 1.5G.
Epiphany.
NOW I was getting the sound I wanted with the core I was looking for EXCEPT....2G was way too small, so no bottom. 1.5G was a good size, but that core was a little brittle and hard - and only 2/3 of the bottom register. Then I tried the Wedge S59 (got my money back for the 2G) and while it was a tad too large - only being able to dependably get up to f from any note in any situation, there was nothing else better. I had a Hammond 21BL, but it was just way too large. Better lowest range, no high register.
Notice my descriptions of the tonal differences of the above mouthpieces....
6 weeks ago I broke down and bought a Wedge 108 Gen 2, which is a half tad larger than a Bach 1.5G. Nice piece Almost has the darkness of the Wedge S59 with the slotting almost like the Wedge 1.5G. Now I've ordered the Wedge 110G, which in terms of specs seems somewhere btween the Bach 1.5G and 1.25G. Terrific slotting like a 1.5G, wide, deep dark cored sound without fuzziness.
Long story shorter: People taking their Bach mouthpieces to Edwards horns in the 90's got lousy trombone sounds, both on tenor and bass. Slokar got his mouthpieces working well with Bach horns, but they didn't work as well with my Yamaha. Yamaha mouthpieces worked ok on Yamaha 822g (the 58 is still a great mouthpiece for the Creation and I'd really have to test both the Wedge 110 against it if I ever had to play the piece). And my Wedge 110 Gen 2 is finally the one that gives me the better sound and response combination.
Both horns and mouthpieces are so individual, that it's probably only valid to express ones own experiences with different combinations. Some folks LOVE Yamaha jazz trombones, both for sound and response. I don't play jazz. I don't get the idea that a Yamaha sound is boring, because the mouthpiece I can use with it effects the basic sound of the instrument I get, I can't just speak of one specific sound. I started with a horn I admired when others played and then sought the piece that got me closest on that horn in terms of sound while also giving me the response I want. but the same Yamaha is a sound-Chameleon, depending upon what mouthpiece I use.
it sounded like you were ending the relationship on that 830 💀
Aidan, I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw you pick up my old Bach T3L. At least I'm pretty certain it's my old one. Orla Ed Thayer vales right and 10.5" bell minus lacquer right? I had it customized back in 2001. If you'd like to know more about the axe, let me know!
That's the one! Who did the work? It's pretty well put together, my tech liked it a lot.
It now has a silver plated Corp bell on it.
Nice review, was especially happy that you reviewed the yamaha...... I'm in the market for a good 2nd hand bass and you helped me with what not to choose 😎👍
I preferred the sound of the Holton TR185. I’m thinking you might solve the lower range problem by unwrapping the attachment. That’s what I did with my TR180. Thanks for the video
I have thought about having an open wrap D slide- the problem is that finding the right size attachment tubing! The offset required is only found at one spot on one instrument, the 180, and so is very rare. Opening the wrap on the F attachment would require similar pieces, and would ruin the setup with the 2nd valve... so not many options!
Honestly, it plays fine for what it is, it's just not the feel I would prefer to have.
@@AidanRitchie Good to know. Thanks. I’m just an amateur so can get away with just an F attachment with a tuning slide for the rare B natural
@@glennbeard7219 no problem! I actually did own an open wrap 180 way back.
Thank you, very cool.
I just love that Holton sound !!!
It is very cool!
Holton horns are quite underrated, IMO. They have a nice, full sound and are quite rounded. You can push brightness into the sound or you can coax a nice, mellow, dark tone. They're great! I miss the one I played in HS (it was a school horn and honestly, I liked it more than the 3062AF that they had).
Hi Aidan,
I have a quick question… For Greg Black mouthpieces, do these mouthpieces have flat rims compared to Bach mouthpieces and also are the bites on the mouthpieces more gradual or do they have a sharp bite? Thanks so much!!!
They're very different than Bach rims, I'm not sure if flat really describes it...
@@AidanRitchie I used to play on a Dennis Wick, is the rim for Greg Black’s comparable to those?
@@benjaminfraser2535 Very different. Wicks are usually pretty flat I'd say
Aidannnnnnnnnn