Lost XP: Why Junior Game Developers Quit and How to Help
Vložit
- čas přidán 29. 06. 2023
- In this GDC 2023 session, examine recent empirical data, existing industry interventions, and explore new solutions to keep talented and diverse game developers in the industry.
The all-virtual GDC Showcase is happening this June 27-29! For more information, be sure to visit our website and follow the #GDCShowcase hashtag on social media.
Subscribe to the GDC newsletter and get regular updates via Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, or RSS.
Join the GDC mailing list: www.gdconf.com/subscribe
Follow GDC on Twitter: / official_gdc
GDC talks cover a range of developmental topics including game design, programming, audio, visual arts, business management, production, online games, and much more. We post a fresh GDC video every day. Subscribe to the channel to stay on top of regular updates, and check out GDC Vault for thousands of more in-depth talks from our archives.
- long hours.
- low pay.
- zero job security.
- most of the time very little actual mentoring from the "seniors"
- often can't even get an IMDB credit for working on the game
so they leave and got to web development for a 30%-70% raise and more sleep.
Most of why I avoided working in game development professionally and went into web development instead
It is saddening and how little some Seniors mentor Jrs.
@@deltapi8859 I think it depends on what you're doing imo. Every project I've worked on where we were starting from scratch, or close enough has been far from dull and boring. All work involving minor changes and fixes to dated pre-existing software has been dull and boring for me.
@@deltapi8859 Lol I quit webdev because I was dying on the inside, and now I'm trying to get into gamedev. Am I a masochist?
@@deltapi8859 @bocatadeclavos1274 same here :D
Skip to @55:30 for the QA question that everybody here wants to ask:
The top talent are worked to death in 6 months and then dumpt right away. You can hear that she is very emotional about how her close friends are getting treated.
And of course there' no acknowledgment during this whole panel that the companies are causing this themselves and abusing their workers.
If you don't start this panel with addressing how workers can demand improvements to the companies work culture and payment then I am going to assume that you here as HR to defend current malicious practice.
@@deltapi8859 Junior Dev can't afford the break, that is the reality
WOW that was a TERRIBLE answer. They put all the onus on the junior workers when the companies set the rules, "just take a break [ from your main source of income, while risking termination] "
No empowerment of the workers, just blatatant, "keep your head down and don't make a fuss"
@@deltapi8859EXACTLY! "oh, feeling burned out? Just take a few weeks off! " .... right, and how am I supposed to pay for food or rent during that time?!?
@@VictorTheVan Having worked for these companies I can assure you - at some point - these people will get laid off too - and will be all shocked pikachu face.
@@zoeherriot i believe it. I wonder if they know🤔
The whole games industry has an exploitation problem of monumental proportions. If you're burning thought staff, you are clearly a bad organization. High turnover is also going to create major issues in project management as you are constantly trying to fill gaps and fix technical debt. Recruitment is also expensive.
Stop thinking you can just get hungry young people for cheap, burn them out, throw them out and bring in a new batch of grads. Throwing temp contractors at a project might work short term. But is a horrible long term.
A quality product comes from passionate people who feel valued in their organization. People won't go the extra mile if they feel they aren't being rewarded. Worse, they might opt to actively sabotage or steal from a project if they feel purely exploited.
An organizations strength comes from the people who work in it, who feel valued and rewarded in it. People who stay long term not only feel secure, but are a highly valuable knowledge resource and contribute valuable cultural values as well.
If you want a reason why the Triple A games industry feels so soulless. It's mostly because they are made by an army of contractors who have little care for the project, because the studio has little care about them. The games are as disposable as their staff.
But you can get hungry young people for cheap, burn them out, throw them out and bring in a new batch of grads. It's working for decades for many business models (hyper casual, short-medium outsource etc). Money can be made and hundreds people want in, why stop? After they will get this terrible initial experience, they actually can learn stuff and find something more adequate, where more quality is needed. Works good enough now, I don't see a problem or real alternative in a free people market.
"Companies want people to stay" is an interesting framing of their desire in an environment of tens of thousands of layoffs.
Instead of blaming schools for not having a curriculum that matches what you want, why not have well paid internships that convert to entry level positions?
Because as soon as they train you, a bigger company will poach you. A small indy company can not afford that.
@Thaden0 then they can't afford good talent.
Realistically they can offer long term incentives like stock options, vesting bonuses, student loan forgiveness etc
@@dreamforgegames4776 what? you are nuts, then you get those juniors, let them run amok in your codebase, let them create memory leaks, or babysit them to avoid that... and after that pay them handsomely.
That's nutz! go do that yourself.
@@mvargasmoran What software company lets interns or juniors push code without a review and testing? They shouldn't let seniors push code without review and testing.
@@dreamforgegames4776 lots of them, they have "as long as it works I'm ok" policies. You know that, stop playing the fool.
Let's start with the most basic. How about paying people for the work done. And by paying i mean paying 60 hours when 60 hours where worked. One of the strangest things about dev stories from certain countries is about 80 hour crunch weeks while getting paid for 40.
Just here to see if the answer is
-union
-better hours
-better pay
-job security
-credit for work done
if not then you are just deluding yourself. The answer 100% of the time to "why can't I keep loyal slaves boo hoo" is to pay them more
Pretty much. This wasnt the best panel. They answer "why are juniors quitting" with corporate speak, while ignoring the glaring answer that is the company.
It's a tale as old as time: Company makes record profits, lays off a huge chunk of the staff, complains about "worker shortages", then makes the excuse that "no one wants to work" when they turn down college grads and willing workers.
Then the quality of its products suffer due to lack of staff.
@@VictorTheVan Gestures vaguely in the direction of the current Tripple A Games Industry who seems incapable of shipping a complete game..
@@Hebdomad7 lmao right?
Culture of respect, a project allowing me to contrbute and a healthy work-life-balnce - I am working in It for 20 years and these are also my top priorities for good job conditions.
This is something I have some strong feelings about, having seen it from all sides. Long, detailed response below - tl;dr at the bottom.
For context, I run a software company (we're on Steam, so people often call it a "game" - but it really isn't). We've grown at an average rate of 1 person per month for the last 15 months. I've also worked for other developers in the past, and have many friends in the industry (or who have left for issues covered in this video).
(Obligatory disclaimer for legal reasons: This is my personal account, and only my personal thoughts and opinions are expressed below. None of my views here, or comments elsewhere on CZcams, should be seen in any way as attempting to disparage any past or current associations, and should not be seen as representing the opinions of Cosmographic Software or its owners.)
---
My thoughts on just a couple points:
I personally feel this talk was quite good, and brought up a lot of issues - though of course there's a lot left unsaid.
I know there are a ton of problems in the industry, and from talking with friends and colleagues who have been doing it longer, what I've seen and heard is that they've grown worse over the last 10-20 years.
For me, a lot of this is about not thinking long-term, and not upskilling their people - in part because many have come to expect churn - and that expectation and how it plays out then encourages that turnover.
This comes back to something I've heard multiple times now: most people don't expect to be with a team for more than 3 months because they know they will only get a decent pay raise through changing jobs; and in turn it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, since when they see this, many employers assume there is no point in planning for a future that won't exist. They hire someone for the lowest offer they can manage for one project, with an expectation of only keeping them for no more than 6 months, and as a result they fail to plan for if they stay. They don't have a plan for raises over the next 1-2 years, much less 5-10 years - so people feel disposable and underpaid (which they are) and leave about 3-6 months in for somewhere else, which has the same belief.
And over. And over. And over.
If you hire someone at a low level, encourage them, talk to them, recognize from day one that they have a lot to learn and help them to learn it. Plan to keep them and let them know you want to keep them - through words, but also through actions. Get a feeling for what's important to them, and what their strengths are.
Plan for them to stay with the team (even as an abstraction) and work to give them the skills and feeling of inclusion that makes them want to remain. Pay them what they're worth. Make sure they feel valued and are on a learning and career track that they feel is helping them - both at your company, and when they leave, because nobody stays forever.
Reassure them when projects go over time, or when they feel like they're not doing as well as they should.
Junior developers are your future senior developers - but only if they get to learn and grow. You get to decide how that happens, and it's as much an opportunity as it is a responsibility. They're valuable assets, so treat them like you wouldn't want to lose them.
For seniors, support them in their roles by teaching them how to lead and talking with them about their own issues.
Develop their leadership qualities. Something many don't realize is that the job of a "lead" is not to be a developer themselves: it's to use their experience to guide their team. But a typical issue in the industry is that nobody teaches people moving into "lead" positions that this is the case, to say nothing of the lack of training about how to actually go about it in a way that doesn't alienate their team.
Obviously these are just a few examples, but I think they're some of the bigger ones.
---
tl;dr - Issues with hiring and retention aren't the fault of the people leaving: it's a failure of leadership, and it's preventable.
---
A few top things off the top of my head that I think have helped make things "work" for me, FWIW:
- Planning from the leadership for 3+ years from now (not just projects, but also how will we do benefits? raises? training? how do we retain?)
- Transparent leadership (very much as mentioned here around 43:00)
- Weekly one-on-ones for everyone with the CEO, actually "hearing" them, and responding immediately to feedback if something isn't working
- Culture and values based honesty on all sides, and not ignoring problems - dealing with things immediately before they get worse
- Actual decent pay + benefits (this is another element of showing people they're valued - pay them what they're worth and reassure them)
- HR (People and Culture) brought on early to help make sure that people actually have their individual needs addressed
- Tailored professional development started early on
- Set people up to succeed with attainable goals that get progressively bigger, and support them as they rise to meet each challenge
- Cost of living raises to beat inflation
- PTO and flexitime
Anyway, just my two cents :) Thanks for reading my massive wall of text.
You sound like a good boss, good luck on your space simulator!
thank you so much, i was on the fence about going into the games industry for this very reason (poor working conditions) but you've talked me out of it
This problem is so much wider than just game development. The world is tech in general is terribly run. I’m struggling with these same short sided policies in my IT Dept.
Not even a way to get your foot in the door without knowing John Romero himself. no wonder people arent confident about getting work in this industry.
If I was to guess, I'd say part of the issue is explained by the first slide after the cover. An increase in number of graduates reduced expected earnings of junior devs (+ labor supply) to the point of incentivizing behavior by employers of underpaying/overworking new graduates, as they are (at face value, at least) easily replaceable. High churn ensues to the point where there aren's as many devs willing to accept poor conditions, while the lower cost of labor is already expected at firm level. Thus the perception of recruitment/retention problems (why won't many of these unemploed devs accept low wages they did before?), while oversupply of labor means good job posts are quickly occupied.
Americans will develop whole fields of science to avoid discussing wealth distribution.
No-one wants to earn barely minimum wage while their boss is a billionaire
Why turn off phones?
The anwser is money. No amount of pizza parties will help. People work for money, give them what they are owed. Money in = Productivity out.
I can see you have worked in the industry. I do have a pavlovian response to pizza parties though because they were usually used to break the ice before layoffs.
Great!
I've seen extremely talented game developers never get jobs in the industry and settle for working at air ports, bars, and coffee shops. They turn their game jobs into side hobbies and only poke their head during game jams.
All this talk and mystification - it's money and quality of life. OK - thanks for coming eveyrone and make sure to keep wearing those masks in 2023!
@@deltapi8859 Graphics programmer here... WHAT???
@@deltapi8859 Well, I just was wondering what these other graphics programming jobs are in other industries. That would be... interesting. :)
@@deltapi8859 Jesus christ dude. I was making a joke. I think we do deserve more money - but that's the catch. Most game developers do this work because we love it. Not because it will make us rich. Having said that - I do know a lot of rich game developers. So... I guess you just gotta get lucky (I'm not lucky).
@@deltapi8859 Gotcha. No worries at all - and yes, I take for granted people can read my mind all the time. ;)
those 2 in the masks are some damn weirdos.
also, you are right, money and clear cut time management, I go home at 5pm, I can only be convinced to stay for some sweet extra money, and sometimes, I prefer to go home despite that incentive.
1 Smoke hour
Amazing how many turns and takes they do to avoid saying "They quit because they are overworked and underpaid". ¿Were these people paid by some giant company to not say the word "fair wages" and instead speak about some new age linkedin nonsense?
I was working 2 years in JS front end, and now 5 years in gamedev. Most juniors not just quit jobs, but quit industry. And it's normal. Job hopping will work only if you actually grow, otherwise you WILL hit ceiling at some point. In IT industry there could be 800 juniors for position. Not all of them will grow or realistically capable of it. Stronger ones will. Most of seniors and middles I know did their hard part as juniors. I personally was working for free for months and then for less than minimal wage. And yet, switch to gamedev, with 30% lower wages, long hours and zero current exp is the best decision in my life. And after 5 years I have more than enough resources to live comfortably. Situation with musicians, actors, painters, etc often is much worse. We already in much better position than artists from other mediums. Game developers need to decide is this art or is this conveyer. If first, then as in any art most people will not be able to do it as main job, and I am okay with that, it's always more comfortable to work with people who value games more than perks, and I worked with a lot of people to say so.
I think that if you're coming in fresh out of college and asking your employer what can you do for me you have your priorities out of wack.
Especially with how oversaturated the industry is with unemployed workers. College Grads are guaranteed to be competing against hundreds of other prospective employees, some with years or even decades of prep/experience all competing against the same ‘entry’ level Junior position.
An employer isn’t going to bend over backwards for a college grad with no experience, unless they’re gifted with a Senior level quality talent, when there are hundreds if not thousands of alternatives applicants to choose from.
There's being able to contribute to a project.
And then there's exploitation and burn out.
Nobody is asking for free lambos. They want to be able to earn a stable living and have a life outside work... like have family and friends.
There should be an indie game, in the U.S. called Weird Football where you can basically invent your own sport. There are no pads. Optional (gridiron) football or rugby helmets. Number of players on team, field shape and parameters. Whether kicking, throwing, or carrying are adjustable. How many refs. Toggle possible cartoon gore (but it’s not mandatory)
Based on these slides, fully half of new game devs have no work experience. They may well have completed some courses and feel like they are are ready to be placed in a position of critical delivery, and they may feel they are fully ready to make executive creative decisions for their feature. Meanwhile they may also expect a different level of "work-life" balance than a 9-5 job actually requires. The percent of junior developers that can be given that level of autonomy, authority and freedom to deliver AND who actually deliver is like 1/20. Studios cannot afford to roll the dice on a 5% chance for success. Congrats, you graduated from a game dev program at a university, prove you can deliver for the first 12 months, I'll promote you to senior developer myself. In the meanwhile accept some direction and make sure the workitems you accept are delivered on time and on spec.
"Congrats, you graduated from a game dev program at a university, prove you can deliver for the first 12 months, I'll promote you to senior developer myself."
Hm, I feel like you are seeing it to much from your own perspective. You talk about the lucky ones who made it into the industry. There is a possibility that these are the high achievers in society with a skewed ego. Getting into the industry is a massive barrier already and next to "you have to be senior in this niche tech the world knows for 5 yrs max" fallacy there is a elite hiring going on, because everyone wants to have the "best" for their money and not pay anyone average if they could.
One example I know from my social circle is a Dev from JP Morgan switching to gamedev and getting the easiest "coding test" and another one having to write a "physics simulation" to get it. Later one an average dude looking for "General Programmer" position. To me this is elite fetishism. And if you filter like that people will have an ego.
This Darwinism thing is very real, if you are not killing it, you are not getting shit. Junior development roles have a 2 to 3 years of work experience bar to them students please do not have delusions that you can get in triple A, those are the pinnacles, if you don't have a prestigious award or achievement on your belt you are not getting in.
@@boxtodragon Triple A is the pinnacle of game development? I want to smoke what you're smoking my friend. That sounds hella delusional.
@@OmegaF77 It’s the pinnacle of a stable income for game developers. It’s the reason so many devs put up with the abuse and are afraid to speak up.
Unpopular opinion: The problem is on both sides - Employee and employer. Junior talent expects too much compare to people 10 years ago - with demand first approach. While not reflecting the value that they are bringing to the table. In most cases they have no understanding of how commercial world works compare to "safe" environment of school projects which has nothing in common besides toolset usage with real world projects. Majority of them are not self sufficient and require huge amount of onboarding which takes time from employees which generate the real value (for example money to the studio). So I am not surprised hiring managers are more and more hesitant into hiring the junior talent, especially during recession.
On other hand, because of the bad project management practices which video games industry is famous for. The timelines and the way of work is so bad that it incorporates by design crunches in the roadmap planning. The churn is so high because studios can afford it, there is always more people interested into getting into video game industry than leaving it. Resources are cheap so they can afford bad planning .
If you want to be hired (anywhere) figure out why the position is open, what company needs, and what you can bring to the table that would be useful for them. Not other way around, especially if you are no name joe with no job experience.
You are right with one thing, that is indeed an unpopular opinion.
@@thelastdankbender4353 Yep, and I am right. Cry about it.
@@deltapi8859 Sorry dude, I don't believe you. If you are proficient in C++ as you are saying then any studio would hire you on the spot right away, as technical talent especially with C++ knowledge is rare. Either you suck (interviewing or with your tech skills), or apply for positions that you are not qualified for, or even on positions that you are overqualified (rarely but can happen). Based on your comment I presume you were applying into big studios which often have more specialized narrow positions (as they should) and bigger known studio you are - more candidates you have, therefore it's harder to get there.
@@deltapi8859 Your project portfolio is irrelevant in the context, even if they would be the top in the field. The fact is that you didn't pass the interview, for some reason. You have to figure out why. Most probably it was, as you said, that there was better candidate than you. So either you can continue crying about it, and argue about it with me here. Or you can try to reflect about what you can improve and what are your weak spots so you can get the job you want next time.
@@Sihion Sad thing, that's probably among the least toxic and arrogant things you've said on the internet, judging by your comments.
All of you heroes need to ask yourselves whether you're all okay paying 80 dollars for all your games starting tomorrow. That's the only way anything will be fixed. It costs money to treat people we'll, and as long as gamers will buy at a max of 60 dollars, people won't be treated well.
First, that’s a AAA price. A lot of AAA games already use other forms of monetization besides the initial purchase, so that revenue bump should already be there manyfold. That said, it’s not just a price tag. Better hiring and retention practices are a matter of company priorities, not necessarily the company making more money.
@@mikesgamelab6369 Fair enough. But the quality of AAA games and investment in development has also increased manifold. It's also not a "bad" hiring practice to have high turnover. It could be and usually is the best market-dictated choice. Not trying to say that everything is fine with management, but that usually these industry-wide practice are symptomatic of market conditions more than anyone being mean at the top.
wrong while we pay less for playing games companies continue to make record profit, the question is where the moeny go ?
@@pro.giciel9084 If you owned a game development studio, what would you do if you saw another company making record profit? You'd sell your game for $10 less and try to cash in
Back in the pandemic or why are people wearing masks again?
I want to suggest web3 as a solution
I know the space is full of scams and shady dynamics but if you create a basic MVP you can raise some money with NFTs to fully focus on your game afterwards
It is so much easier and creative than a fundraising route or a VC process that usually cause you to loose control of your game