I’m not an audio tech, but surely, your power amp is not connected directly to the speaker/s in your sub. It is connected to your sub’s integral amp. So, although that that integral amp is drinking from the sane source, it’s the sonic characteristics of that sub’s integral amp which will most influence the damping factor of that sub.
You would think so right. However I have took Paul’s and Rels recommendations and used high level inputs to hook up a sub and I could have sworn it sounded better. Most of my systems use a single subwoofer cable though just to avoid the spaghetti mess that high level wires create.
How about passive Subs? They do exist and they do make sense e.g. in a home cinema setup, where you need shallow subwoofer boxes and cannot accomodate the amp in the box..
Not entirely clear whether Paul combs through comments, but it's also not entirely clear that Dana's query is about self-powered subs or passive subs that require amplification. Damping factor will ALWAYS affect sound, but we hope that powered sub mfgrs have already slain that dragon for their product - otherwise, it's just too late.
The question for me was fairly simple and I wasn’t paying much attention to it. But I was definitely admiring the TT. And I’m not a vinyl guy. But I do love audio jewelry and that’s a beauty
Except for phase shift. Most subwoofers have a phase adjustment pot to correct any phase difference between the power amplifier’s main speakers and the sub(s) internal amplifier(s).
Google Benchmark Damping Factor for a very comprehensive explanation. Paul is absolutely correct about this question. Hegel over boasts it’s damping factor which is annoying.
Regarding which input to choose, I can't see how the difference of line level input vs speaker level input can be even audible at the sub frequencies we're talking about here! There could be an issue with phase but subs have a phase shift switch. I would always choose line level, as the signal will be less affected by power supply demand compared to the power amp. At high levels there could be some sag or compression at the speaker outputs due to the power supply not keeping up with demand. Of course this only applies to a less expensive stereo amp - you'd expect the power supply in an expensive amp or a pair of mono blocks to be able to keep up with demand and then it's not an issue.
The high-level inputs are not drawing current, as they are high impedance. The signal from the PA is voltage and is getting amplified by the sub's internal amplifier. You wouldn't be able to effectively parallel the sub with the main speakers if current was drawn from the mains PA for the internal sub amp.
If damping factor is the ratio of output impedance to speaker impedance, you'd have to recalculate based on the resistance of the high-level inputs. The damping factor also relates to back EMF of the speaker voice coil which is a non-factor when tied to the high level inputs.
Are we talking active sub or passive? For active, DF shoudnt make any difference? Also, what I have read online damping factor only matters till some point, lets say 30 is what they say is enough for anything a 300DF amp can do and you wont hear a difference. Damping factor just shouldnt be too low. That was my understanding. i think even Paul has the video about that topic of DF.
It just occurred to me that the sound of the power amp together with the main speakers determine the sound. Duh. What I mean is the reactive load of the speaker feeds back into the amp. Connecting the input of the sub to that amp/speaker system would influence the sub as it plays the signal given to it. That also would lead to better matching of the sub as it is now part of the same feedback loop.
Paul, thanks for the information but I do have one question, the turntable you had on the tabletop you were standing behind, what is that beautiful piece of equipment?
Good Day Paul, you did explain in this video where we should connect the sub, to the power -amp, Could you please explain user, where to connect this sub, is it to the same output ,as the left/right outputs go to the speakers?Please ,ask you kindly to explain us in a video exact how,where to connect, when we user have intergrated/mono amps. This is indeed a difficult issue,Yours sincerely Ray
Tube amplifiers mostly have an notoriously low damping factor. Som like it, i don't. So - if you want to experience the difference between low and high dampingfactor, then compare a tube amplifier with a decent class B amplifier driving a given sub. You will be able to tell the difference easily, espicially if you listen to electronic music with a lot off basslines and heavy demanding beats. It will be very noticeable below 100-80 hz, and don't get me wrong - it is also noticable above 100 hz, but tends to be more difficult to differentiate with higher ferquenzies. Having worked with PA systems in the late 80's and trough 90' i learned that with highpower subs, dampingfactor absolutely makes a difference. An example is if you chose to drive one or two subs on a given amplifier channel. If you chose to drive 2 subs in parallel you cut the dampingfacor in half, and although the amplifier may have sufficient powerpupply to drive a lower empedance load i just doesn't sound as good and solid as if there is only 1 sub connected. Bringing an extra amprack or two was a easy way to get a bit more empressive sub reproduction. I believe it was Crest audio who made a really hefty PA amplifier with an alledged 10.000 dampingfactor at 8 ohm load witch is nuts. Testing it on 4 8 ohm 18" subs in parallel (on 1 channel) it should behave as a simular amp with a dampingfactor of 2500 on a 8 ohm load (still pretty impressive), but it was just incredible dissapointing despite the fact it should be able to run on 2 ohm load all day long. Dampingfactor is (just) a number and while it may indicate sirtain proberties, you should trust your ears in the first place, and just let the numbers point you a general direction to a given application.
It depends on the music. I have two solid states (Class AB and Class A) and two tube amps (SET and Pentode). I absolutely have to listen to the Eagles on my tube amps.
@@epi2045 Yes i agree, and it is not really true that i dont like tubeamplifiers, but they tend to be challenged in the low end spectrum. I heard Pink Floyd Dark Side Of The Moon (and a lot of other acoustic goodies) on a Audio Note system and it was absolutely mindblowing, but not really in my budget... In a perfect world i would like to have several different systems depending on what i am listening to.
@@frederikschiler1394 At one time, I tried to get the “one perfect do it all system”. After decades, it has come down to my cooking and wine philosophy. Pairing and variety. I have 6 pairs of speakers including my beloved Magnepans (two pairs).
Hmmm, when your sub has to carry 50Hz and below, IMO there is no soundflavour from your Poweramp carried to the speaker. In that case Preamp-Chinch-Out or Poweramp-Speaker-Out are sane Quality. We can only "hear" differences of sound from approx. 75Hz onwards. Cheers Stefan
Best way to integrate subs is to use an active crossover with a high-pass filter. It is much easier to integrate and there wont be any overlap of frequencies.
I am wondering how amps using active feedback to accomplish extremely high Damping Factors but with a modest internal PS impedance, compared to just a good low internal resistance PS, might be affected? There is more information exchanged between devices when active circuitry is involved.
The damping factor of a power amplifier, which is just a function of its speaker output impedance, is not a connectivity consideration to worry about when powered sub woofers are added. 1 ohm output impedance from the speaker terminals, versus 100 ohms output impedance from a pre-out, going into the subs higher input impedance, equals no problem in either case regarding functionality. As far as sound quality is concerned, the pre-out would be my choice giving less distortion and quiescent hum compared to speaker out. Of course you may not have a pre-out anyway. Additionally, the paralleled power amp speakers could act as microphones when connected to the sub input, potentially creating noise and positive feedback.
Whatever Paul said is fine with me. But does it have to cost so much ? You are such a tease Paul. Why is the TT in the center frame and you don’t even mention it? Oh I Get it ……. It’s the elephant in the room 😊
He's right about the sound but gives the wrong explanation. An active sub has it's own damping factor. A hight output signal from the amp to the sub gives very litle destortion compared to a long RCA interconnect. Get a 14 AWG coax (2.5 MM2) as interconnect. same for your dac and turntable. You'll be shocked about the sound improvement. As an electronic egineer and an audiophile for over 5 dacades thrust me on this one.
What about a decent quality Audioquest sub cable? I just bought a AQ Boxer cable and it completely eliminated my hum it also seems to sound good. Do you think specialized sub cables can sound better?
every av receiver has rca sub outputs also called lf outs. also modern amps and integrated have them. if not you must use a sub with hi level or speaker level (not signal) inputs. some have them some dont. most modern subs only have line rca inputs so check that before buying what you need.
A lot of people have tube amps like me, and they don't always build them with subwoofer outputs. I just bought two 2023 Yaqin tube amps with NO sub out jacks, as they both have only one pair of L and R speaker outputs. I guess $1,600 wasn't enough for such luxuries (lol). Without reengineering these tube amps this idea of wiring subwoofers directly to such amps is a little silly. I would have to do a mod anyway to tap the preamp, I rather not do mods on new stuff I just bought. And my subwoofer has its own digital amp built in, so my sub's output is already going from directly from an amplifier to a sub driver (speaker).@@endrizo
Personalmente detesto los Subwoofer Activos. Porque hay que transmitirle la señal por RCA o XLR, con cables muy largos, además deben tener una toma electrica cercana. Entonces se necesitan 2 cables en vez de uno solo. Otra cosa es que el diseño de la caja está en relacion al amplificador integrado que llevan. Que generalmente no son de muy buena calidad. Conclusión vivan los Subwoofer Pasivo !!!
No, sorry.. The right way is to use the low-level... The high-level is just a backup for use with amps without pre-out or sub-out. It's litteraly a extra step using the high-level since you first take the high-level to low-level inside the sub amp and then the sub amp amplifies it. And by your logic here that would also apply when connecting power-amps then... But the same does suddenly not apply there.
There might be a difference in how high or low you have to set your gain on the subwoofer. Also, personally I like to connect my sub directly to my speakers since speaker cable have sonic characteristics as well.
Sounds like more of a cost saving measure. When the funds are available duplicate your main speaker cables exactly, so all drivers in the system are receiving exactly the same signal passed through the exact same length of speaker cable. That is the reason for PS Audio designs that always incorporate 4 binding posts in all their amplifiers. You want (Stereo) sub's wired directly to the amplifier, not each speaker they slave. Paul or others could explain the technical aspects of why.
I did something similar. I use to connect speakers to subs (2) terminals, although speakers and subs directly connected to amp do sound the same in my setup. The speaker cables I use don't have any sonic characteristic (I chose a model that don't filter any frequency between 20 and 20000 Hz [adequate capacitance and inductance]).
As the speaker drive unit has mass it will have inertia as it moves. When the signal from the Amplifier tells the drive unit to stop moving and start moving in the opposite direction the inertia will keep the drive unit moving in original direction for a bit before it stops and reverses direction. This overshoot is what is needed to be damped. An amplifier with higher damping factor will control and reduce this overshoot better than one with a lower damping factor. As bass drivers are much higher mass and move further than tweeters damping factor has much more effect in the bass. You may have noticed that bass drivers driven by one amp move a lot more than when driven by a different amp at the same volume. This would be because the second amp has a higher damping factor. An amplifier with a higher damping factor will tend to sound better, especially in the bass, and be less likely to damage the drive units if played at very high level.
Okay, I'll be the one to ask. Is that going to be a PS Audio turntable? I mean, it's just sitting right up front and you never even acknowledged the thing.
I like running really long speaker level cables back and forth around my room in asymmetrical lengths to the subwoofer. Especially when I am running a tube amp with negative feedback, ambient noise can be picked up better by the speaker cables and amplified by the amp. Makes it a good test to see if my system is revealing or not. 😂. Everything in engineering is a trade-off. Bass sound and quality matters, just because something can make a sound difference, does not make it better. Just run coax interconnects, not the twisted quad stuff (the directional interconnects that Paul says to run from). Ironically he also only sells directional interconnects on his website. Please people, run unbalanced, coax interconnects to your subs, not speaker level inputs. If you have an integrated tube amp without sub or pre out, get speakers that have proper bass response. Too many are small and narrow these days with no bass response, an engineering trade off to lower shipping costs, and the lazy…oh they can just add a sub.
You may understand a car analogy: Weak dampers tend to make the car bounce uncontrollable up and down after rolling over a bump. Good dampers stabilize the movement quickly after the bump.
Think of damping factor as the amp's ability to not only tell the drivers what to do and when, but also what NOT to do and when. The amp makes your speakers behave in a certain way, and also prevents your speakers from (mis) behaving in other ways.
Damping factor above 160 is useless, human ear cannot tell the difference between Damping factor of 160 or 2000, very high Damping factor is an indication that amplifier has too much feedback which can be a problem itself, it can cause coloration in sound signature of an amplifier!
It's Sunday. Blessed is the audiophile who has such a nice midrange that he doen't even notice the bass or cybals usually. But when he does pay attention in that region, it's there for him with effortless definition. The real meat of the music is in the midrange. Not just on music with vocals, but even instrumental music. Audiophiles who listen analytically, pay too much attention to the frequency extremes. To the bass & cymbals. Of course if your frequency extremes call attention to themselves too often; there is most likely a problem. The drummer on a stage is usually in the "background" with his drum and cymbals. They should sound that way; back... If the cymbals are coming forward, something is amiss, unless a mastering engineer is going for an effect. You'd be surprised how many instruments are mostly midrange. Saxophones for instance. Even "phones" are mostly midrange. Ask google to play a 400 hertz tone. Most people picture sort of a low note at that frequency. It's not a low note. You won't believe how high a note 2k is. Know your frequencies! It seems a lot of the commenters are assuming subwoofers with amps built in. If it's older equipment, might be a better chance that someone has a passive sub, with no amp at all.
I don't agree with that assessment of music. A good composer will utilize all of the musical canvas to create something interesting and all of it can be important (the main exception is a very scaled down production with few elements in total). Just listening to the midrange feels more like what casual listeners do, unlike musicians that tend to catch a lot of details that the casuals have a hard time separating. So it's not just audiophiles (which often aren't musicians themselves) that listen for more than just the mid sounds, it tends to go for most that have a deeper interest in music. Furthermore, the drums aren't in the back because they aren't meant to pay any attention to. The main reason is because drums are big and immobile, and would be in the way.
@@Evil_Peter There are even some bands where the drummer is in front on one side of the stage. Examples: Cory Wong & the Wongnotes (left - as seen from the audience), Fearless Flyers (right side).
I don't mean that you totally miss the drums and bass, but the real flow of tbe music is the emphasized parts, and they are emphasized for a reason, they are the heart of the music; the most important. JustA lot of the music is just seasonings.Just as grocery stores put the stuff they want you to see on the shelves near eye level, musical artists generally express the most important aspects of their music in the midrange. People generally aren't listening low down in the subterranean region. It catches their attention at times.People tend to concentrate on the midrange. I do equip. mods and last night I meant to listen a certain bass part of a song which I didn't think came through compellingly enough the last time I listened. I was so intrigued by the how the improvement made the midrange sound and the improved spatiality that I forgot to listen for the bass pattern until the song was almost over. The ear is more sensitive to midrange sounds. It can detect slighter changes of pitch and wow and flutter there, and throughout the evolution of the human species, being able to detect midrange sounds of predators in the wild and other beings wasof doom was the most important for survival. Hear or not be here it often came down to, and natural selection did its thing in the evolutionary process. As for drums, the loudness level and therefore emphasis emphasisof them by the musical artist is whats important. Not so much where the drums are being played from. But if the drums hits are in back as usual and the cymbals sound like they are happening in front of your tweeter, or from your tweeter, that drummer must have arms 25 feet long. long....I mentioned that about drums just to expose a common fault of most stereos.
The midrange makes or breaks the sound. If you are focusing too high up in frequency or too low down; you are undoubtedly missing most of the music and its flow. Although with classical music it might be a bit different. Your listening is tilted a little different if its a cello concerto versus a piano concerto or a violin concerto. Someone once told me to really appreciate Bach, you have to concentrate your listening down lower. But for classic rock or Jazz like I listen to mostly; midrange is king.
I’m not an audio tech, but surely, your power amp is not connected directly to the speaker/s in your sub. It is connected to your sub’s integral amp. So, although that that integral amp is drinking from the sane source, it’s the sonic characteristics of that sub’s integral amp which will most influence the damping factor of that sub.
I think it depends on how it’s connected to the amp.
You would think so right. However I have took Paul’s and Rels recommendations and used high level inputs to hook up a sub and I could have sworn it sounded better. Most of my systems use a single subwoofer cable though just to avoid the spaghetti mess that high level wires create.
@@JR-ho5qmthis is interesting as A-B tests can help us judge better.
👍
How about passive Subs? They do exist and they do make sense e.g. in a home cinema setup, where you need shallow subwoofer boxes and cannot accomodate the amp in the box..
Not entirely clear whether Paul combs through comments, but it's also not entirely clear that Dana's query is about self-powered subs or passive subs that require amplification. Damping factor will ALWAYS affect sound, but we hope that powered sub mfgrs have already slain that dragon for their product - otherwise, it's just too late.
The question for me was fairly simple and I wasn’t paying much attention to it. But I was definitely admiring the TT. And I’m not a vinyl guy. But I do love audio jewelry and that’s a beauty
Yeah I would rather know about the turntable.
Damping factor is very important for woofers …. It does not affect powered subs…
Except for phase shift. Most subwoofers have a phase adjustment pot to correct any phase difference between the power amplifier’s main speakers and the sub(s) internal amplifier(s).
Google Benchmark Damping Factor for a very comprehensive explanation. Paul is absolutely correct about this question. Hegel over boasts it’s damping factor which is annoying.
Regarding which input to choose, I can't see how the difference of line level input vs speaker level input can be even audible at the sub frequencies we're talking about here! There could be an issue with phase but subs have a phase shift switch. I would always choose line level, as the signal will be less affected by power supply demand compared to the power amp. At high levels there could be some sag or compression at the speaker outputs due to the power supply not keeping up with demand. Of course this only applies to a less expensive stereo amp - you'd expect the power supply in an expensive amp or a pair of mono blocks to be able to keep up with demand and then it's not an issue.
The high-level inputs are not drawing current, as they are high impedance. The signal from the PA is voltage and is getting amplified by the sub's internal amplifier. You wouldn't be able to effectively parallel the sub with the main speakers if current was drawn from the mains PA for the internal sub amp.
If damping factor is the ratio of output impedance to speaker impedance, you'd have to recalculate based on the resistance of the high-level inputs. The damping factor also relates to back EMF of the speaker voice coil which is a non-factor when tied to the high level inputs.
Are we talking active sub or passive? For active, DF shoudnt make any difference? Also, what I have read online damping factor only matters till some point, lets say 30 is what they say is enough for anything a 300DF amp can do and you wont hear a difference. Damping factor just shouldnt be too low. That was my understanding. i think even Paul has the video about that topic of DF.
Hi Paul, cool painting. Where did you get it from?
A local artist painted it. It's an Octave Records cove
Just loving that turntable!!❤😂
As a suggestion, it would be very useful for people who do not understand eletronics to see a scheme of connections to illustrate what is explained.
It just occurred to me that the sound of the power amp together with the main speakers determine the sound. Duh. What I mean is the reactive load of the speaker feeds back into the amp. Connecting the input of the sub to that amp/speaker system would influence the sub as it plays the signal given to it. That also would lead to better matching of the sub as it is now part of the same feedback loop.
Cool turntable
Paul, thanks for the information but I do have one question, the turntable you had on the tabletop you were standing behind, what is that beautiful piece of equipment?
Good Day Paul, you did explain in this video where we should connect the sub, to the power -amp, Could you please explain user, where to connect this sub, is it to the same output ,as the left/right outputs go to the speakers?Please ,ask you kindly to explain us in a video exact how,where to connect, when we user have intergrated/mono amps. This is indeed a difficult issue,Yours sincerely Ray
I think you have to use speaker B terminals on the amp providing your amp has it
Tube amplifiers mostly have an notoriously low damping factor. Som like it, i don't. So - if you want to experience the difference between low and high dampingfactor, then compare a tube amplifier with a decent class B amplifier driving a given sub. You will be able to tell the difference easily, espicially if you listen to electronic music with a lot off basslines and heavy demanding beats. It will be very noticeable below 100-80 hz, and don't get me wrong - it is also noticable above 100 hz, but tends to be more difficult to differentiate with higher ferquenzies.
Having worked with PA systems in the late 80's and trough 90' i learned that with highpower subs, dampingfactor absolutely makes a difference. An example is if you chose to drive one or two subs on a given amplifier channel. If you chose to drive 2 subs in parallel you cut the dampingfacor in half, and although the amplifier may have sufficient powerpupply to drive a lower empedance load i just doesn't sound as good and solid as if there is only 1 sub connected. Bringing an extra amprack or two was a easy way to get a bit more empressive sub reproduction.
I believe it was Crest audio who made a really hefty PA amplifier with an alledged 10.000 dampingfactor at 8 ohm load witch is nuts. Testing it on 4 8 ohm 18" subs in parallel (on 1 channel) it should behave as a simular amp with a dampingfactor of 2500 on a 8 ohm load (still pretty impressive), but it was just incredible dissapointing despite the fact it should be able to run on 2 ohm load all day long.
Dampingfactor is (just) a number and while it may indicate sirtain proberties, you should trust your ears in the first place, and just let the numbers point you a general direction to a given application.
It depends on the music. I have two solid states (Class AB and Class A) and two tube amps (SET and Pentode). I absolutely have to listen to the Eagles on my tube amps.
@@epi2045 Yes i agree, and it is not really true that i dont like tubeamplifiers, but they tend to be challenged in the low end spectrum. I heard Pink Floyd Dark Side Of The Moon (and a lot of other acoustic goodies) on a Audio Note system and it was absolutely mindblowing, but not really in my budget... In a perfect world i would like to have several different systems depending on what i am listening to.
@@frederikschiler1394 At one time, I tried to get the “one perfect do it all system”. After decades, it has come down to my cooking and wine philosophy. Pairing and variety. I have 6 pairs of speakers including my beloved Magnepans (two pairs).
Hmmm, when your sub has to carry 50Hz and below, IMO there is no soundflavour from your Poweramp carried to the speaker. In that case Preamp-Chinch-Out or Poweramp-Speaker-Out are sane Quality. We can only "hear" differences of sound from approx. 75Hz onwards.
Cheers
Stefan
Does anyone know what turntable that is?
Always awesome we love you Paul! Thank you!
Damping Factor is good for Subwoofer speaker?
A fully active Subwoofer system is where the money is at, IMHO.
Best way to integrate subs is to use an active crossover with a high-pass filter. It is much easier to integrate and there wont be any overlap of frequencies.
Cool painting
I am wondering how amps using active feedback to accomplish extremely high Damping Factors but with a modest internal PS impedance, compared to just a good low internal resistance PS, might be affected? There is more information exchanged between devices when active circuitry is involved.
The damping factor of a power amplifier, which is just a function of its speaker output impedance, is not a connectivity consideration to worry about when powered sub woofers are added.
1 ohm output impedance from the speaker terminals, versus 100 ohms output impedance from a pre-out, going into the subs higher input impedance, equals no problem in either case regarding functionality.
As far as sound quality is concerned, the pre-out would be my choice giving less distortion and quiescent hum compared to speaker out.
Of course you may not have a pre-out anyway.
Additionally, the paralleled power amp speakers could act as microphones when connected to the sub input, potentially creating noise and positive feedback.
Nice painting
Whatever Paul said is fine with me. But does it have to cost so much ?
You are such a tease Paul. Why is the TT in the center frame and you don’t even mention it? Oh I Get it ……. It’s the elephant in the room 😊
RCAs into the electronic crossover into a stereo amp then into the stereo subwoofers in the front of the room facing you.
Good Morning!
He's right about the sound but gives the wrong explanation. An active sub has it's own damping factor. A hight output signal from the amp to the sub gives very litle destortion compared to a long RCA interconnect. Get a 14 AWG coax (2.5 MM2) as interconnect. same for your dac and turntable. You'll be shocked about the sound improvement. As an electronic egineer and an audiophile for over 5 dacades thrust me on this one.
The RCA connection from a pre-out will give less distortion, bypassing the distortion from the main power amp output stage.
What about a decent quality Audioquest sub cable? I just bought a AQ Boxer cable and it completely eliminated my hum it also seems to sound good. Do you think specialized sub cables can sound better?
I don't know man.... I mean, my subwoofer must give me a BOOM, low frequency BASS (
Bass can have texture and nuances to it, it’s not just boom. I use a AudioQuest Boxer sub cable with good results. Check them out
every av receiver has rca sub outputs also called lf outs.
also modern amps and integrated have them.
if not you must use a sub with hi level or speaker level (not signal) inputs. some have them some dont. most modern subs only have line rca inputs so check that before buying what you need.
A lot of people have tube amps like me, and they don't always build them with subwoofer outputs. I just bought two 2023 Yaqin tube amps with NO sub out jacks, as they both have only one pair of L and R speaker outputs. I guess $1,600 wasn't enough for such luxuries (lol). Without reengineering these tube amps this idea of wiring subwoofers directly to such amps is a little silly. I would have to do a mod anyway to tap the preamp, I rather not do mods on new stuff I just bought. And my subwoofer has its own digital amp built in, so my sub's output is already going from directly from an amplifier to a sub driver (speaker).@@endrizo
Personalmente detesto los Subwoofer Activos.
Porque hay que transmitirle la señal por RCA o XLR, con cables muy largos, además deben tener una toma electrica cercana. Entonces se necesitan 2 cables en vez de uno solo.
Otra cosa es que el diseño de la caja está en relacion al amplificador integrado que llevan. Que generalmente no son de muy buena calidad.
Conclusión vivan los Subwoofer Pasivo !!!
No, sorry.. The right way is to use the low-level...
The high-level is just a backup for use with amps without pre-out or sub-out.
It's litteraly a extra step using the high-level since you first take the high-level to low-level inside the sub amp and then the sub amp amplifies it.
And by your logic here that would also apply when connecting power-amps then... But the same does suddenly not apply there.
There might be a difference in how high or low you have to set your gain on the subwoofer. Also, personally I like to connect my sub directly to my speakers since speaker cable have sonic characteristics as well.
Sounds like more of a cost saving measure. When the funds are available duplicate your main speaker cables exactly, so all drivers in the system are receiving exactly the same signal passed through the exact same length of speaker cable. That is the reason for PS Audio designs that always incorporate 4 binding posts in all their
amplifiers. You want (Stereo) sub's wired directly to the amplifier, not each speaker they slave. Paul or others could explain the technical aspects of why.
I did something similar. I use to connect speakers to subs (2) terminals, although speakers and subs directly connected to amp do sound the same in my setup. The speaker cables I use don't have any sonic characteristic (I chose a model that don't filter any frequency between 20 and 20000 Hz [adequate capacitance and inductance]).
Should the playback chain (amplifier and loudspeakers) not dampen anything at all?
As the speaker drive unit has mass it will have inertia as it moves.
When the signal from the Amplifier tells the drive unit to stop moving and start moving in the opposite direction the inertia will keep the drive unit moving in original direction for a bit before it stops and reverses direction. This overshoot is what is needed to be damped. An amplifier with higher damping factor will control and reduce this overshoot better than one with a lower damping factor.
As bass drivers are much higher mass and move further than tweeters damping factor has much more effect in the bass.
You may have noticed that bass drivers driven by one amp move a lot more than when driven by a different amp at the same volume. This would be because the second amp has a higher damping factor.
An amplifier with a higher damping factor will tend to sound better, especially in the bass, and be less likely to damage the drive units if played at very high level.
Where is Shatki Stone in all this audio message relayed today…
Okay, I'll be the one to ask. Is that going to be a PS Audio turntable? I mean, it's just sitting right up front and you never even acknowledged the thing.
Looks like a Clearaudio Innovation to me.
Nice deck.
Not even going to mention what record player that is ?
I like running really long speaker level cables back and forth around my room in asymmetrical lengths to the subwoofer. Especially when I am running a tube amp with negative feedback, ambient noise can be picked up better by the speaker cables and amplified by the amp. Makes it a good test to see if my system is revealing or not. 😂. Everything in engineering is a trade-off. Bass sound and quality matters, just because something can make a sound difference, does not make it better. Just run coax interconnects, not the twisted quad stuff (the directional interconnects that Paul says to run from). Ironically he also only sells directional interconnects on his website. Please people, run unbalanced, coax interconnects to your subs, not speaker level inputs. If you have an integrated tube amp without sub or pre out, get speakers that have proper bass response. Too many are small and narrow these days with no bass response, an engineering trade off to lower shipping costs, and the lazy…oh they can just add a sub.
I don't understand this one. It doesn't make sense to me.
You may understand a car analogy: Weak dampers tend to make the car bounce uncontrollable up and down after rolling over a bump. Good dampers stabilize the movement quickly after the bump.
Think of damping factor as the amp's ability to not only tell the drivers what to do and when, but also what NOT to do and when. The amp makes your speakers behave in a certain way, and also prevents your speakers from (mis) behaving in other ways.
Damping factor above 160 is useless, human ear cannot tell the difference between Damping factor of 160 or 2000, very high Damping factor is an indication that amplifier has too much feedback which can be a problem itself, it can cause coloration in sound signature of an amplifier!
Can you explain it in English now?
It's Sunday. Blessed is the audiophile who has such a nice midrange that he doen't even notice the bass or cybals usually. But when he does pay attention in that region, it's there for him with effortless definition. The real meat of the music is in the midrange. Not just on music with vocals, but even instrumental music. Audiophiles who listen analytically, pay too much attention to the frequency extremes. To the bass & cymbals. Of course if your frequency extremes call attention to themselves too often; there is most likely a problem. The drummer on a stage is usually in the "background" with his drum and cymbals. They should sound that way; back... If the cymbals are coming forward, something is amiss, unless a mastering engineer is going for an effect. You'd be surprised how many instruments are mostly midrange. Saxophones for instance. Even "phones" are mostly midrange. Ask google to play a 400 hertz tone. Most people picture sort of a low note at that frequency. It's not a low note. You won't believe how high a note 2k is. Know your frequencies!
It seems a lot of the commenters are assuming subwoofers with amps built in. If it's older equipment, might be a better chance that someone has a passive sub, with no amp at all.
I don't agree with that assessment of music. A good composer will utilize all of the musical canvas to create something interesting and all of it can be important (the main exception is a very scaled down production with few elements in total). Just listening to the midrange feels more like what casual listeners do, unlike musicians that tend to catch a lot of details that the casuals have a hard time separating. So it's not just audiophiles (which often aren't musicians themselves) that listen for more than just the mid sounds, it tends to go for most that have a deeper interest in music.
Furthermore, the drums aren't in the back because they aren't meant to pay any attention to. The main reason is because drums are big and immobile, and would be in the way.
@@Evil_Peter There are even some bands where the drummer is in front on one side of the stage. Examples: Cory Wong & the Wongnotes (left - as seen from the audience), Fearless Flyers (right side).
I don't mean that you totally miss the drums and bass, but the real flow of tbe music is the emphasized parts, and they are emphasized for a reason, they are the heart of the music; the most important. JustA lot of the music is just seasonings.Just as grocery stores put the stuff they want you to see on the shelves near eye level, musical artists generally express the most important aspects of their music in the midrange. People generally aren't listening low down in the subterranean region. It catches their attention at times.People tend to concentrate on the midrange. I do equip. mods and last night I meant to listen a certain bass part of a song which I didn't think came through compellingly enough the last time I listened. I was so intrigued by the how the improvement made the midrange sound and the improved spatiality that I forgot to listen for the bass pattern until the song was almost over. The ear is more sensitive to midrange sounds. It can detect slighter changes of
pitch and wow and flutter there, and throughout the evolution of the human species, being able to detect midrange sounds of predators in the wild and other beings wasof doom was the most important for survival. Hear or not be here it often came down to, and natural selection did its thing in the evolutionary process.
As for drums, the loudness level and therefore emphasis emphasisof them by the musical artist is whats important. Not so much where the drums are being played from. But if the drums hits are in back as usual and the cymbals sound like they are happening in front of your tweeter, or from your tweeter, that drummer must have arms 25 feet long. long....I mentioned that about drums just to expose a common fault of most stereos.
Midrangers are the most important thing. i agree.
The midrange makes or breaks the sound. If you are focusing too high up in frequency or too low down; you are undoubtedly missing most of the music and its flow. Although with classical music it might be a bit different. Your listening is tilted a little different if its a cello concerto versus a piano concerto or a violin concerto. Someone once told me to really appreciate Bach, you have to concentrate your listening down lower. But for classic rock or Jazz like I listen to mostly; midrange is king.