Anatolian and Early Indo-European (with Dr. Anthony D. Yates)
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- čas přidán 30. 05. 2024
- Dr. Anthony D. Yates (Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich) answers questions about Hittite and other Anatolian and early Indo-European languages--as well as historical linguistics in general--from patreon supporters of Jackson Crawford in a Patreon-exclusive Zoom conversation held live on February 27, 2022. See more of Dr. Yates's work at www.adyates.com/
Jackson Crawford, Ph.D.: Sharing real expertise in Norse language and myth with people hungry to learn, free of both ivory tower elitism and the agendas of self-appointed gurus. Visit JacksonWCrawford.com (includes bio and linked list of all videos).
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Thank you so much for posting this. I recently found your channel and I feel like I'm just taking the college courses I care about, for free. You are the man.
The Anatolian branch of I.E. is the top tier in my opinion. It has this magical blend of preserving many P.I.E forms alongside absorbing bits and pieces from surrounding language families (some very influential ones from antiquity). Luwian hieroglyphs are mega aesthetic and Hittite cuneiform just works surpirsingly well, in terms of writing into clay it's way easier to use cuneiform, the Hittites knew this ;-) lots of sumerograms and akkadograms in Hittite writing but some how that just makes it far easier to learn the inflection and conjugation endings. Plus there's still plenty of mystery left to uncover in the languages - what on earth does the kan enclitic really do? The Hittite corpus is also reasonably big meaning we have just about every type of text you could want to read. Today I was re-looking at the Hittites talking about their conflic with the Alashiyans.. very interesting. Learn Hittite folks!
Greetings trom an Iranian Farsi(Parsi) speaker who is good at Swedish. I have always been profoundly interested in this subject. delighted to find your channel.
These talks are great. If you could get someone like Prods Oktor Skjaervo on to talk about Iranian stuff, that would be surpassingly excellent.
Fascinating. Wish there were cool people like Tony at my university :/
I hoped the a ā theory was touched here. Short version of the theory is the prepie had a ā which later went to pie e ō, e split to e/ē and ō shorten in most environments to o except for where e when to ē. The evidence for this theory is based off of Sanskrit o > ā. The theory does state e/ē stayed a/ā near h₂/h₃ and k found in roots
What a great and interesting interview!
This was a very interesting. Thank you kindly!
This was excellent. Thanks so much to you Jackson and Tony. Videos like this are extremely helpful for those.of us beginning to find our way in these complex fields.
I was always curious about the grammar and lingual art of Proto-Indo-European and Anatolian.
Watching this from Anatolia, thank both of you :)
Awesome! I also just saw in your bio that we are both from H-Town originally! Very cool! You have an amazing channel and please keep posting this content!
Bro. I was just watching the last Yates interview the other day. Nice.
Great!! Greetings from Anatolia :)
Since we have so little evidence of the pre-Indo-European languages of Europe, excepting Basque, Etruscan if it is autochthonous, Raetic, and parts of Linear A, if we can identify pre-Indo-European loanwords, that would be a glimpse into Old Europe.
Unless you can match for example local topographic names with words in a more distant language, it's difficult to distinguish "native" words from later iron age innovations. In English we assume unusual "p-" words/names are non-Germanic (e.g. Pybba or Penda). Also we have at least two earlier layers, local hunter-gatherer languages, and potentially afro-asiatic farmer languages. (Potentially since we know the people are genetically afro-asiatic, but there are clear isolates like Sumerian that don't fit linguistically).
I think it's also worth noting that roughly all indo-European branches with the possible exceptions of Anat and Toch were spoken in Europe (and not just on the pontic steppe) at some point in their history before they are attested. So any hypothetical Old European loan could potentially appear in almost any IE lang, making it harder to distinguish from PIE vocabulary.
@portable-cimbora you're contradicting yourself, besides the Saami and Suomi came later. References to fianna and Finns in different areas may be connected but aren't necessarily the same people. Welsh and vlach are related words but not closely related people or languages. (Vlach or voloch are Slavic terms for Romance speakers - Romanians, Aromanians, Italians etc.)
@UCbRBJxcj1D3pwO0sXSrWHTA ??? Welsh are not mysterious. It's the Anglo-Saxon term for any "foreigner", particularly the British-Celts (Cumbrian, Cambrian, Pictish or Cornish). Germanic speaking people's used cognate terms for other peoples on the continent , and it was borrowed by Slav and Romance languages for particular "foreign" groups near them.
@portable-cimbora Arthur is a later medieval myth, so yes very far off. Geoffrey of Monmouth was creating an origin myth to validate the Welsh Tudor claim to the British throne (ironic since Tudor is a Germanic name).
I am Dutch and I am very interested in indo European languages and I think Dutch is an underrated gem in this.
In my research I found Dutch words (especially older Dutch words) to be much closer to Indo European words from for example Iran and Anatolia than other Germanic languages. Many times it is just a one or two letter difference or a slightly different ending. Many times I see linguists from other countries make all kind of "chains" of what Germanic words originally meant going through all kinds of morphisms while the (old) Dutch word usage (up to the 1900s) would explain everything.
My mom comes from an pretty isolated area with it's own west Saxon dialect/language and I am partially raised with it. And to my surprise when I first read/saw Beowulf in anglo-Saxon I could read many parts of it without too much problems. Gothic is a bit harder but also kind of understandable.
Are you talking wbout Friesian?
@@janetrobinson1864 I guess it's rather "Plattdeutsch", i.e. Saxon, North Sea Germanic like Frisian. Both didn't undergo the 2nd Germanic loud shift and therefore conserved older forms of Germanic.
Kom nu maar over de brug met voorbeelden
@@janetrobinson1864 Frisian is one of those languages as well.
@@mistersir3020 Beowulf (oud saksisch):
Ðá cóm of móre under misthleoþum
Grendel gongan· godes yrre bær·
Engelse vertaling :
He came now from the moor under misty fells
Grendel walking. The wrath of God was on him.
Nederlands :
Daar komt uit moor onder mistigheid, Grendel komend. God(en) ontberend.
Moor is een oud Nederlands woord voor Moeras.
Zoals je ziet ligt het modern Nederlands een stuk dichter bij 9e eeuws oud Saksisch dan het Engels. Als je het Saksische dialect spreekt/begrijpt komt het nog een stuk dichterbij. Engels is overigens voor een groot deel ontstaan vanuit het Fries en Saksisch.
Gothisch :
Gothic: infinitive: giban, preterite: gaf;
Dutch: infinitive: geven, preterite: gaf;
Gothic: haban, preterite: habáida,
Dutch: hebben, preterite: had,
áigan ("to possess") - Eigen
kunnan ("to know") - Kennen
saian ("to sow") - Zaaien
gasalja (“companion, comrade”) - Gezel
ganso ("goose")- Gans
Gothisch (Matteus 6:9-13):
unsar þu in himinam
weihnai namo þein
Winterswijk, Achterhoek/Gelderland, Nederland (Matteus 6:9-13):
Unzen Va in (die) hemelen,
Eheiligd (Gothisch gebruikt een variant op gewijd) dien name zijn
I took Intro to Linguistics 101 near the end of my degree program just because I needed an elective. It turned out to be really interesting, and I kind of felt like I had missed the chance for a more interesting career path. No regrets, though. Especially with your interviews and lessons offering side studies on a casual basis.
What did you become? A Mafia hitman? A lion tamer? A Navy SEAL? Don’t keep us in suspense.
About h3, it seems appealing to posit that its distinct vowel coloring effect is caused by a distinct POA. Maybe h1 is glottal, h2 is velar, h3 is uvular. Or h1 is velar (or there was both velar and glottal but we can't distinguish them), h2 uvular, and h3 pharyngeal or epiglottal. Other straight-up velar sounds are rare enough in PIE (and iirc there is inconsistent that *k potentially did color vowels the same way that h2 did) that it's hard to be certain whether velars had the vowel coloring effect.
Maybe the laryngeals correspond to *š, x, k in the prehistory of of the Uralic languages. Or if Indo-European and Uralic are cognate families, the laryngeals became distinct in Indo-European as part of the innovation of ablaut and h1 (glottal) was the zero grade and h2 and h3 (uvularized palatal-pharyngeal or epiglottal) were the full grade (h2 being the e grade and h3 the o grade).
I think I remember seeing h3 described as a labialized velar or uvular fricative, the labialization explaining the o-coloring effects.
As I have read the story, "watar" was a dead give away, together with the verb "eizza" in conjunction with the hieroglyph for bread.
Great video, very interesting points, thank you both!
I've been looking into Sauji from Afghanistan, a very interesting language. Though I don't see major clear outside influences in Sauji, some minor uralic substracts might have been carried out, as probably in sarmatian and balto-slavic. But as Anthony said, the thing is: what couldn't be explained through the proper IE linguistic connections? Surely there might be some caveats here and there with all branches, as the aforementioned germanic "ship".
the H in Pali, which is a prakrit related to sanskrit indicates an exhaled exclamation (for lack of better word) of the previous consonant. Dhamma for instance. also maybe an interesting note is the slight pause between double consonants. so its pronounced something like "DHam-ma"
What a great lunchtime podcast. 😁
21:48 nowadays in disney and maybe all children media the word for death and kill are not allowed. All the cartoons have to make up euphamisms for death, like dissapear
Now I know I'm a history nerd, I knew the answer to the question that the Egyptians were the ones who wrote about the sea people! Lol
Gabriel Germain, in his work Homer wrote that Homeric Greek was put in a metre that belonged to an indo-european language from the Aegean area. In light of Hittite study of grammar does it look likely it may be Hittite, to which is added the hegemony over Troy?
Do You know anything about why the Thracian inscriptions found on Samothrace are compared to Anatolian languages?In what stage is this linguistic investigation? And to which of these languages?
I was surprised by the question around @25:00, but the answer was right. Anatolian IE is not very related to Greek or Armenian. Those come from a much later Balkan route language subgroup.
I am not a professional linguist, but it seems to me that Latin was greatly influenced by a considerable Etruscan substrate. One good example that gets a lot of use is the ending -al/-ar.
Hurrian's relative language is Urartian
the only language today related to hurrian , Hittite is the Portuguese that got its subtract because that languages mutated so many times
There's something about our modern notion of writing and transcripts that we take for granted but is actually not all that trivial. I think writing systems being invented or adopted doesn't mean that culture is going to dump all of their oral literature on paper. That's, like, theirs. It's passed down. Why write it down, y'know?
It takes a lot of convincing before people would want to become literate, let alone put their entire culture and language on paper...
oh HELL YEAH
Noob question: how do we know Hittite stress at all?
concerning the laryngeals, in my generation i remember reading that they were predicted to be in PIE by a famous 19thC linguist whom i cant remember at this late date out of my memory, but it was the decipherment of the laryngeals in hittite that proved his predictive supposition.
It was Ferdinand de Saussure
@@heathensein6582 wow! thank you so much!
Origin of the feminine gender: Any good evidence against that originally there were only animate and inanimate (neuter), then some neutral plurals used as abstract concepts got reinterpreted as singular and feminine? Forming a seed for a distinction between a masculine and feminine concept of nouns. Cf Latin opus - opera, and then opera could be reinterpreted as a singular feminine.
I'm no linguist, but had some exposure to Luvian studies and noticed some common words with modern Armenian, which I speak. Any scientific confirmation of this?
@@user-xo9ig8kc3u I speak Greek too and Luvian, at least superficially has hardly got anything in common with it
@@PhilipDjaferis Number of words that are obviously related are not many, but they exist. E.g. καρδιά and zārza (z pronounced as 'ts").
But more important than lexicon is morphology. If you compare the declension of Anatolian words with Ancient Greek it's strikingly similar.
Harvard en 2022 a situé le berceau de la langue indo-européenne en Arménie , le professeur David Reich , je suis très étonné que l’on n’en parle pas plus !
I would like to see video on proto spanish? Not much info on it, curious to hear how it sounds vs modern spanish
proto spanish?lol
It was just local Vulgar Latin admixed with some Germanic. There's not really a proto-Spanish as it were.
@@gavinrogers5246 yeah but its called ibero- romance
@portable-cimbora that's because they were all borrowed from the same source at various points during the Medieval or Early Modern Periods through either Arabic or Ottoman interlocutors. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
"I didn't really see that as my trajectory". Somehow I find us language ppl needing to explain, or at least having the need to explain, why we never became historians or literature scholars. It's odd, although somewhat understandable when one thinks on it for a bit.
Regards,
"I never saw it as my trajectory, ie. to write histories or on ancient literature - languages _an sich_ be my thing".
Interesting that Dr Yates went from being a Classicist to studying Hittite.
Usually I have found that those who specialise in Latin and Ancient Greek know very little about other ancient civilisations, and tend to find comparisons and parallels to their subjects with Medieval and Modern European history but never Ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt or Anatolia. They almost never, for example, compare how the Romans organized their Empire with how the Assyrians organized theirs. I have long thought that this must limit our understanding of Ancient Greek and Roman civilisations.
40:00 Bangala (Bengali) is a language which lacks “grammatical gender” although some Sanskrtic nouns and adjectives do have genderized forms (like abhineta = actor, abhinetree = actress). Arguably Bengali lost grammatical gender if we compare it with Prakrits and modern languages in Bengal and surrounding areas.
Similarly, it is certainly possible that some of the Anatolian languages lost gender.
Honestly I think the Greeks were the sea peoples. I think they attacked Troy and other places and when they tried against Egypt Ramses destroyed their armies effectively depriving the Greeks of males and leaders leaving what we see in the archaeological record which is urban collapse and increased pastoral nomadism. The only men remaining would be pastoral nomads that didn’t sail with the armies. We know Troy was attacked and most probably for loot so if the Achaeans succeeded there why wouldn’t they continue to attack other places.
I live in Israel and a good friend of mine is a specialist on the Philistines and on the archeology of Philistine sites. In his opinion all evidence point to the Philistines as not just being from the general region of the Aegean, but actually Mycenean Greeks, who spoke Mycenean Greek and who were the prime focus of Homer and Hesiod in the Archaic Greek era. Since the Philistines were just one group of the Sea Peoples, and since they all seem to have come from the Aegean, we can assume that most if not all of those groups were Mycenean Greeks, except maybe the Lukka who might have been Lycians. The Minoans were assimilated into Greeks by 1200 BCE, so even a Minoan origin points to a culturally Greek origin.
please remove this indo term from this hocus pocus indo - european nomenclature .... european's are middle-easterm people their culture, rreligion all r middle-eastern please spare the iindian's ....indian's don't want to aasociate themselves with neither european nor middle eastern.... european sud feel happy with their middle-eastern cchristianity identity simple....indian's got nothing to do with ur middle eastern culture, religion, language or whatever...... please spare the iindian's with ur alien's theory or language theory........
the sea peoples were sardinians and etruski
@@robertolang9684 whatever... just remove indo from this hocus pocus PIE theory .. iindians do not want to associate with europe u guys can play with ur european theory or some jjesus wwesus ssins theory or may be some alien theory ... just leave iindian out of it....
How do we distinguish that hitites aren't indo Iranian but are indo euros thanks guys
Indo Iranian is a subset of Indo-European, but the name is somewhat confusing
As said here Hittite should not be taken as a predecessor & basis for studying Luwian W Anatolian languages. E.Zangger quotes Emil Forrer'...the Luwians were a far greater people than the Hittites.'(from a letter written in Aug.1920) So there was important work as early as the 1920s.
What is the actual evidence for *wulfaz being the original Germanic word for wolf, rather than *wargaz? Is it only because the former is attested in Gothic? The latter seems a lot closer to Sanskrit vṛka, and I know how linguists hate plebs making connections between words simply because they sound similar, but I would love to hear someone explain why this is the consensus. Both of the Germanic terms seem to be explained as forming due to "taboos", which to me sounds a lot like the archaeologist cop-out of labeling rare weapons "ceremonial".
The r in Sanskrit is a red herring. The related terms are wulfaz, lupus (borrowed from a neighboring language with different sound changes), loukos, walkwe, vilkes, wilk, vrka etc.. It wasn't the only word for wolf (Celtic and Armenian use "howler") and seems to be a steppe usage - in Anatolian it means lion instead. L and r are phones which are hard to distinguish, and frequently switch.
Wargaz on the other hand didn't even mean wolf except euphemisticly in a limited cultural area. All the surrounding languages, Germanic or Finnic, have the sense of outlaw, criminal, outcast etc. (Finnic languages are especially good at preserving the ancient meaning of borrowed Germanic terms). Remember also that Gothic came from the same region as eastern Norse, and reflects an earlier dialect and lexicon that separated before warg came to mean wolf in its homeland.
@@AutoReport1 Awesome, thank you! But Germanic seems to be the only language that doesn't have a k sound in there.
@@AllahuSnackbar270 tokharian walkwe seems the most archaic form, like in the Oscan lupus the kw seems to have become a bilabial. These are regular sound changes and are expected.
@Gary Allen Sometimes they're flimsy or extremely heavy, but other times they're just a bit heavier than usual or have a unique design. If it can be used to kill someone, and maybe just requires a unique fighting style, I think it's a cop-out to label it ceremonial.
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Could Celtic not have a significant substrate
50:00
what i had learnt actually quite a bit before you young whippersnappers were born about that substrate in germanic that seems to be non indo-european vocabulary is that the pre- or proto- germanic speakers came into contact with another linguistic group and borrowed words from it. there was/is some other speculation that this contact is correlatively source of the vanir and aesir gods and goddesses.
Andhera means dark in Hindi.
You said that could be Persian or Armenian but u didn't think about Kurdish or u don't want say they could be Kurdish ? why?
There needs to be more research into the connection between IE and Afro-Asiatic. One of the words that helped translate Hittite was the word for eat, but what appears to be related root is found in Semitic as gh-d referring specifially to eating by an animal. Towards the end of this video there is mention of the word for white albus in Latin, the same root is found in Semitic in words for white / milk - Halab, laban. That's just two of hundreds of examples.
Is anyone looking at Gardener's much derided work on 'Black Athena' linguistics evidence? I am not a linguist. But Jackson Crawford gets me up in the morning.
Horay! I feel so ignorant (which was the hope of a previous teacher) I love listening to the conversation, but not much was understood than the fact that there is so much more that I do not know.
Melissa, we should always desire to surround ourselves with people with know more than us. That's how we become more knowledgeable. So, in that sense, may we always feel ignorant!
the less informed people are, the more confident they are; its a quirk of life that the more you know, the less you are certain of
Jackson Crawford - the Western-y John Wick.
_Jack_ Wick, if you will.
Around the hour mark they're baffled by the theory that the change from pastoralism to agriculture would change a population's features, so I wanted to clarify that the theory isn't about sudden genetic change but the way people's bodies develop under different stresses. Genetics being the hard to change blueprint, but the physical body people end up with being influenced by the environment they're raised in. The amount and type of physical activity (including chewing), nutrition, endless other variables and their effects on posture, muscle and bone development throughout the skull and body and everything else. In this case the theory is that a relatively narrow upper and lower jaw compared to their Proto-Indo-European ancestors made certain sounds more or less comfortable to produce. Like any explanation for pre-historical linguistic changes, who the hell knows.
You favor Drake Bell. You've ever been told that before?
Kurdish Anatolian indo European ✌️
So when he talked about the Hittite storm god fighting a rock giant, I immediately thought of Thor fighting Hrungnir. I wonder if they're related...
i am rather surprised that in telling the story of the discovery of the IE and Hittite relationship, not only root is Grimm's law version of the other IE eat root. but not to mention that the object of the in that hittite text is and the genitive plural in hittite and anglo-saxon are exactly the same syllables.
also, i wonder what his thought is about the relationship that Jan Puhvel points out about the Homeric past tenses as comparable to the hittite past tenses? and what he might speculate about what that might imply on cultural contact or earlier linguistic proximities in space and time.
the change of the shape of people's mouths? might be believe-able if people were all born with a lisp...but otherwise......
Hey
It's May be interesting, could you make a video about similarity of melodies in islandic folk song "Á Sprengisandi" with polish-ukrainian "hej sokoły"?
I can't find any collaborative composers of this sound ...
I personally feel Sanskrit is INCREDIBLY overrated and over-emphasized in IE studies. Of course it offers certain valuable insights (such as regarding the mobile accent, etc.) but I think it has also deviated from "PIE" to a greater extent than Proto-Hellenic or Proto-Italic, for example. I personally believe that a PIE speaker would understand the latter two languages much easier than understanding Sanskrit, which deviated so far from the original PIE homeland and underwent many phonological and lexical shifts in the process
The recent genetic evidence makes it clear that Germanic was not "learned" incompletely, there was a large influx of Indo-European speaking steppe herders (50-90% of the resulting population depending on neolithic farmer density) with a mobile population which then ranged across the European plain from the North Sea to the Caspian.
I apologize, maybe I am feeling jaded this evening but less than a minute in I stopped the video. As soon as the guest sounded like a valley girl in highschool I had to bail. I realize that is a shortcoming but I value my time too much to gamble on it. I hope I was wrong and others don't have a hair trigger like I do. All the best.
nonsense sanskrit pundit in india already said that the oldest ved the rig ved has two ( sometime three) component old & ( middle & new) and the new & new shows some but little similarities between hhittites and avestan while atharva ved does show some similariries with hhitties, mittani, & avestan,..... while the old part of rig ved is very different than the new part of rig ved in terms of sentence formation .......
1st
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Rename the so called " indo european" . As North Indian, I don't like to be anyway linked with europeans.
What you do like or dont like plays no role, presumably.
Don't worry, we don't like you people either, but facts are facts.
Not an argument. I get that PIE has some unfavorable implications about your religion and history but you should think critically.
@@MultiSpeedMetal there are no contemporary to Vedic literature or cultural evidence in Europe which are similar to India. Still pushing this narrative is hilarious .
@@arcane3464 Considering that you people tend to date the Vedas to like 10,000 BCE, no place on earth has such old literature. Of course, this isn't true, but how could one possibly change a hindutva fanatic's mind without literally opening their cranium and picking out their brain.