The grid is depleting - The current issue with BTCC
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- čas přidán 7. 03. 2024
- The BTCC is currently in a baron spell at the moment, something the series has not experienced since the backend of the Super Touring era. But what has caused these issues? In this video, I discuss what the main issue is, along with how the series has got to this point, and what can be done to fix this.
Twitter: x.com/JWillows1997
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0:23 Ennis and George, not Vedo and George. Got both Ennis and Vedo mixed up. Whoops. Sorry Ennis. Also hello Vedo if you are watching.
Henlo
“Race on Sunday - Sell on Monday” - Don’t you get it yet?! “They” don’t WANT us buying cars. “They” don’t want us OWNING cars. “They” don’t want us DRIVING cars. “They” want US poor and “them” rich. Motorsports are the epitome of Freedom. And “they” don’t want that!
I think Hybrid systems should go. I’ve always thought it was a little bit gimmicky for touring cars and success ballast was a better test of driver skill and made championship a lot more open for different winners
Hybrids can stay, just make it free use. When its gone its gone
@@km6832 or a potential trial idea is see how the quali rules work in the race. It probably wouldn't make too much of a difference but i'd still be interested to see
I think hybrid is much better for balance. Makes the best drivers win rather than a complete crap shoot.
I like the idea of hybrid replacing the success ballast, but it does add complexity and maintenance costs to the running gear.
@@edugj23it hasn't worked so far
I miss it being more of a manufacturer Vs manufacturer. When it was easy to tell what cars were what. Now the liveries are just a mess and all the cars look the same.
Agreed, that and there isn't a big personality to get behind anymore now Plato and Neal have retired. Ash Sutton whilst one hell of a driver seems dull as dishwater.
@@insertgenericusernamehere2402 are there even any big rivals now? I could tell you what manufacturers Plato and Neil drove but Sutton I have no idea 😅
@@Atticus3lack couldn't tell you myself it never seems to be the case
NAPA FORD @@Atticus3lack
@@insertgenericusernamehere2402 i wont say hes dull just mellow and low key
Something that hasn't been pointed out that much is, there's no way to legally watch BTCC outside the UK! I'm Brazilian, and I currently can't check out how it's going because the series ties itself to an exclusive national broadcast deal which is a hurdle for the growth of any kind of international fanbase and coverage.
Big facts
Even after the races are over, there's no way to watch races in full and the 'highlights' put up on CZcams are absolutely laughable compared to what F1 puts out a couple of hours after each race and even compared to the BTCC highlights from the 90s that were put on the end of season VHS. If they think they're captivating anyone with a 'race in 60 seconds', they're deluded and have no interest in expanding viewership
@@SimonWitt That's exactly how I feel about current World RX. Although the nature of rallycross is short races, it's so lame to see highlights that are barely 2 minutes long for a full day. That's far from enough to understand how the event unfolded.
Except there is a way, in fact a couple of ways. Anyway for the easiest way they have announced it will be shown on tiktok of all places. Either that or get a VPn for goodness sake
@@SimonWitt They're only about 5 minutes long and barely put the action into proper context.
There are too many in the motorsports industry that have thoroughly failed to take proper advantage of online distribution and recognize its importance, especially in the long term.
People are cutting cable everywhere you look. The massive million-billion dollar carriage and broadcasting deals executives and promoters sign with these companies for short term gains are going to sabotage their products in the long term as they desperately gatekeep their content, put it behind paywalls; or in MAVTV's case, literally only limit it to live TV, to recoup their investment- limiting the reach of their series and programming and jeopardizing motorsports' future.
Then motorsports broadcasters and promoters alike wonder why viewership remains so low compared to other content. I don't think it's necessarily a bad product that ruins something like BTCC or motorsports programming- it's just bad management.
I went to two BTCC rounds last year (Thruxton and Donington) and can say that there were definitely a lot of fans relatively speaking, especially at Thruxton which was pretty packed in the summer. However, if the grid size and competitiveness does continue to diminish, I can see a decline in interest occurring. It hasn’t reached a tipping point yet, but like you said, it’s going that way.
Great video anyway JW. I’ve been looking out for them and watching them all recently, so thanks and keep up the good work!
yh i went to the finali at brands hatch and there were loads of people
@yurialityalex Nice profile pic, also my favourite Doki
@@JohnH100-ih3heThanks lol, I drew the silhouette myself.
Never thought I find another person who likes the BTCC & DDLC@@yurialityalex
I watched the full season last year, and i have to say it was weakest i have ever seen. Croft my local track, there was no action at all. No change in order at all. so what ever TOCA has done, they have stalemated the field, and i think the hybrid is the cause of it.
The big issue is, as always, money. Teams prioritise a driver's financial backing over their talent, which leads to their cars running around at the back. In fact, almost any time certain drivers get shown during a race, is when something untoward has occurred with them. Main sponsors don't pay all that money and are then content with the only exposure they get, is essentially negative. Therefore, they either pull out after the season, renegotiate the deal for less money, or move to a more successful team. Like any professional sport, it is a results driven industry and putting drivers in cars based on their wealth and not their talent, means a distinct lack of good results.
Quality is better than quantity 👌
This is my feeling as well. I’ve really liked the first couple rounds of 2024.
Just stumbled across your channel. Great Topics ! You are getting my sub ❤
Thanks for the shoutout Joe lol
In all seriousness though, the BTCC while at a low point rn is not lost. I'm honestly unsure about bringing back success ballast back, not against it in any way, don't think the Hybrid system has it's faults but I wouldn't be surprised to see success ballast back if things don't improve. 2023 imo was probably the most boring BTCC season in a long time and no it wasn't down to simply the NAPA Fords being the best car (although it was part of it) They had Ash Sutton driving, enough said. I'm happy the grid still has over 20 cars as I think thats a healthy number, but Alan Gow must realise there's a reason why major teams are having to leave the championship with the new hybrid regulations as it stands. I will of course still be watching the championship this year but I don't feel as hyped or motivated for this year. I'm sure it will still be somewhat entertaining but something has to give sooner or later
i think the problem with the hybrid is that it only penalises you sometimes while ballast penalises you everywhere. With the hybrid, you're only at a disadvantage when the person behind you is using it and you're not. The ballast would compromise handling, speed, tyres and everything else. The one experiment with it I would like to see is how it would play out if they used the qualifying rules in the races. it probably wouldn't make too much difference but I think it would still be semi interesting.
@@joeogle7729 Some good points made there
BMW is the best car down the straights
Look at the standings how is NAPA the best? They just have sutton who is infinitely better than turkington
Serieses?
Tony Gilham Racing merging with Team HARD.? Huh?! There was no "merger", they're the same thing, always have been. Aiden Moffat Racing didn't merge with One either.
Look, I appreciate the effort that's gone into this, but there's a good few inaccuracies here
seriesies
Seriously miss the Super Touring cars. Will always remember being at Knockhill in '98 with the torrential rain watching them fly round bumper to bumper. In fact the rain was so heavy that day the TOCA 2 game that was released (I bought it for the original PlayStation) had to introduce a new extreme weather event especially for it. Just having all the manufacturers in their own liveries was far better than what we have now though, I can't tell who is who without commentary.
Interesting presentation... Thank you...Roger.. Pembrokeshire
Couple of things:
The TCR route imo can’t happen.
The NGTC were expected to stop in 2026 because the regulations have been used so much now over a 13 year period that the cars have been developed to their max. So regardless of The situation I think NGTC rules were going in 2-3 years anyway.
The Hybrid rules have certainly been a factor to running the cars and costs being too high. The sustainable fuel seems like the future. But can’t go back to TCR. It would loose an identity that made it the championship so different and key to its success.
Besides, it would make TCR UK redundant
Hybrid ruling i think has been the main factor, extra cost that teams don't need at all.
Problem with TCR is they're not designed to be fixed cheaply and quickly - still fundamentally a production car. Have a big accident and your weekend is done and the car needs a reshell.
NGTC as long as the cage is undamaged, you can bolt on a new subframe (with engine) and panels and after a couple of hours frantic spannering be back out racing for the next round...
Costs is by far the main issue. You're looking at 800k plus for a top line drive. What I find funny is Gow is anti rear wheel drive yet too stubborn to swap to TCR regulations. I personally think just using the e-fuels is enough. Last year just wasn't interesting. Okay not helped by Sutton dominating but my interest of it has declined over recent years toom
The cars you spoke about leaving the grid, we're quite old by the time they left. I might be wrong, but that model of Merc A Class wasn't even in production at the time it was replaced.
Indeed plus biggest factor he's forgetting is they were private backed cars not actually run by manufacturers.
If you look at just manufacturer teams there's only been as much as you can count on one hand for years. Plus this trend isn't taking into account for global factors at current time wars etc
Fantastic and informative video, just one note "Serieses" isn't a word, you can use the word "Series" to decide one or two or more :)
Brillant video you have raised a lot of good points .
I would like to see the Btcc return to balast
Having been to multiple rounds over the last decade and knowing a few insiders, it's post-COVID effects (still) coupled with rising costs not helped by the Hybrid system. There's additional insurance (heard 100k per car) for one on the cars incase the Hybrid cooks the thing, not to mention the technological knowledge and cost of the system.
TCR never depleted any markets, TCR UK catered for the clubman racer who didn't have a BTCC budget. Remember BTCC now you have to have a full TBL, commitment to all rounds, you can't just show up and enter one off or part time like the previous car generations. In fact what I here is TCR is hitting a rocky patch for the lower-budget drivers and that GT4 and GT3 are much more value for money plus also many more opportunities to race.
Add in budget costs - 700k plus for a driver for top teams, some teams just letting other drivers run cut price, that's not a healthy environment.
I maintain BTCC would be a TCR series if it wasn't for TCR. BMW are the one manufacturer pumping money in through their UK brand and the 1 RWD left.
Great video and you make some great points. Me and my mate started going to BTCC events and have been going to more and more of them each year. We had notice especially last year a real big drop off of spectators that are going to watch BTCC which we thought it might be cost of living, Team Dynamics pulling out as they have a massive fan base, Jason Plato retiring from BTCC which was probably one of the last super touring car drivers that was racing and the other part to it that there was really no real rivals that people could back one side or the other, the last one is there not much option with teams/cars to back or want to support. It was good that Team Hard had 6 cars last season.
The hybrid system did seem to work pretty good which was a surprise as it didn't seem to work that great in the testing at Silverstone. I guess it's BTCC looking like they are doing something good to the environment so they are on the good books from those type of people which doesn't appeal to the fans of BTCC and other race goers. Yes your are right that probably they should scrap the hybrid system if that's the main thing that making teams and racing drivers pulling out of the championship and go back to weight ballast, But how about the independent teams racing in non-hybrid cars but I guess that will split the grid into 2 classes.
This is the thing that killed of the Super Touring Car was spiring costs that made teams pull out and it sounds like it come around again. I remember watching a program and they was saying that Ford spent about £1Million on developing the championship winning Mondeo. You see most racing drivers struggling to get sponsorships to help pay the way to even get a seat in any championship which some of it goes back to finances and a lot business probably don't have that sort of capital these days to sponsor a racing driver not alone a team.
I think the support races are another problem. BTCC hasn't properly filled in the Ginetta races gaps in the events as they have some championships that are there in one event and not in the next event which makes the BTCC events seem kinda amateurish in my opinion.
I just hope that BTCC somehow finds its vibe and gets people into it again.
Sad to say, but I think the BTCC has had its day. The lack of an international touring car scene, plus the changing face of the car industry in the UK (SUVs far outselling traditional saloons, for example) leaves it with limited options to reinvent itself. Maybe TCR...but those are even slower than NGTC, so it'd be a downgrade.
Once the likes of Sutton and Ingram go on to other series, I see the BTCC increasingly just becoming a club based series for amateur/gentlemen drivers. Youngsters coming up through the ranks like Harry King and Adam Smalley are going to GTs, because BTCC budgets are so ridiculous and there's not enough about the series right now to make it worth while.
BTCC isn't a particularly prestigious series anymore. There's not really much chance to make good money from it, and it doesn't really provide any relevant experience in terms of moving to bigger series, so why try and raise a budget when you could go GT racing for less?
Hopefully I'll be proven wrong, but it's definitely a series that's facing serious threats to its long term future.
Arguably it hasn't been prestigious since the ST era, and its freshness has been called into question since the early NGTC/civic estate days
Personally I think this season could be one of the greats. The depth of talent in the field is as high as it's been for a while, hybrid power is doubling and global streaming can only raise the profile of the series. As for teams dropping out etc the economy is pants at the moment, it's bound to have an effect. At the club level more and more grids are being joined so clubs aren't losing money.
2014 was the peak of the series in the last 15 years. I went to a lot of races that year. Losing Plato, Neal and Shedden, Dynamics and 888 has hurt as well. Maybe it'll bounce back.
2018 was pretty good, 17 different winners from 30 races. And let's not forget the epic finale to 2019
Can’t expect those guys to continue forever. They have to stop at some point
Supercars in Australia are going through a rough patch as well. Losing a few of their top star drivers, smaller grids, little manufacture interest, and smaller crowd size (I live in NZ but come from England grew up watching the BTCC in the 90's-00's). BTCC needs to scrap the hybrid system, all well trying to help the environment though there are questions whether a heavier car which consumes more fuel is better, but if there are little to no cars on the grid, what impact are you making? Will add, Alan Gow has not embrace social media such as online livestreaming and that is hurting them as newer gen do not watch TV anymore.
Yep they killed big Aussie V8 touring cars
@@Luke-en2tk To be fair, the category killed itself.
I expect V8 Supercars to be GT2 without assists in a season or two, if Ford and Chevy make Mustang and Corvette GT2s.
Bit of a misnomer to be honest. TOCA want the grid to deplete to around 24-26 cars - there's not enough garages at some of the tracks. Team HARD fielding substandard cars for rent a drivers hasn't exactly added quality...
There's also very little support from the manufacturers. The whole point of NGTC is that it's just a standard road car shell with a spec spaceframe to keeps the costs under control, unlike late 90s Supertouring. Half the grid were stripping down used road cars to be converted into NGTC cars in the mid-2010s. The Alfas, Audi, Mercs, early Focus and Passats etc were all privateer efforts.
I understood that the Infinity's were no longer eligible due to homologation regulations? Age combined with the brand actually disappearing from Europe in 2020 probably rendered the car ineligible. I reckon Hybrid has been good for the Championship, however it's implementation needs to be rethought, perhaps.
The atmosphere at the circuits is always great. I think there just needs to be some more variety, maybe bring back a night race or get to Anglesey or Mondello Park (or that 2025 fabled F1 support slot). Or do what the GT's do and take a race over in continental Europe.
At the end of the day though cash is king, and for anything big to change more money would have to be pumped into now what is a niche series.
I've been watching this series for 45 years and have seen it ebb and flow. You're right that it's ebbing now and change needs to happen. Hybrid was a catalyst for this but even without hybrid the current NGTC cars are already too expensive to build/buy - it's one of the reasons why that formula never took off anywhere else in the world. Removing the hybrid technology is unlikely to happen if the series remains a single make formula but it could if NGTC was part of the transition. Transitition to what ? The only option is TCR. The cars are a lot cheaper to buy and run and there's homogenity with the rest of the world.
Some very interesting information from this video and as someone who has been watching BTCC from 2019 onwards (So not for that long, don't crucify me for that XD) but personally after last season I'd definitely take the weight ballast again as if you didn't develop your car properly then it'd hurt you no matter what.
The hybrid system was good for the first season in 2022 because no-one really grasped how to make the most of it half of the time which provided entertaining racing and a new champion with Tom Ingram. As for last season (2023) I felt that despite Sutton running away with the championship even I wasn't too happy about the races as it felt like there was barely any overtaking in some races which made them feel very boring to watch.
In terms of new manufacturers and manufacturers leaving I feel like that was due to how less competitive they were compared to the rest of the field, VW was nowhere as was Mercedes. Maybe Audi could have provided a challenge with a better car and engine but again this never happened, there was once talks of Jaguar potentially entering BTCC but honestly I think this was a long shot given how they've gone with cars in recent years. One thing to really keep in mind about car manufacturers is that if they provide cars for a series and they keep seeing them get smashed up then they may just pull their backing or pull the plug on the whole thing (This has happened in F1 before many times) due to how uncompetitive they are.
I'd like to see new and returning manufacturers and a big grid because that's what made BTCC stand out for me in the first place, one of the biggest complaints that a lot of people (Myself included) had last season was how stupid Team HARD went with hiring more than 6 drivers for the entire season, not paying some of them and trying to run 6 cars out of one team (Albeit in 3 smaller teams) and to me it's no surprise when they announced they weren't returning. Like many others I'm shocked that Team HARD made a U-turn to rejoin BTCC again this year but they need to learn by their mistakes otherwise they'll continue to be a laughing stock on the grid.
Also to quickly bring up the hybrid system again, you know it's bad when a team with 1 second of hybrid can consistently win and get poles at nearly every circuit :/
BTCC needs fixing now more than ever and if it doesn't like you said it'll go into a really bad decline and that's something that no-one wants to see happen again.
Funny enough I was thinking the same thing myself. I 100% Agree with your points there.
I think the main problem was TCR showing up and depleting the market, IRL to CART style
There was no need for it, the BTCC was at capacity grids and it was just a cash grab to try and piggy back on its success
Everything about it is worse, worse cars, worse racing, worse TV coverage, worse quality of drivers, etc, but there it is, existing and taking the back of the grid drivers away frm BTCC and reducing grid sizes
There's only really enough of a market for one top line touring series.
I'd have had no problem if it showed up and made its position on the motorsport scene clear, as a ladder series to the BTCC. sorta like a GT4 to British GT's GT3 or something
But no, the egos behind it immediately started targeting BTCCs crowds (good luck), press coverage and teams, ensuring we now have two weaker series instead of one strong one
I don't knowwho the Tony George figure is behind it, but whoever it is, they are responsible for the diluting of british touring car racing.
TCR never depleted any markets, TCR UK catered for the clubman racer who didn't have a BTCC budget. Remember BTCC now you have to have a full TBL, commitment to all rounds, you can't just show up and enter one off or part time like the previous car generations. In fact what I here is TCR is hitting a rocky patch for the lower-budget drivers and that GT4 and GT3 are much more value for money plus also many more opportunities to race.
Unlike CART / IRL there was never a split and teams never left for TCR
I maintain BTCC would be a TCR series if it wasn't for TCR. BMW are the one manufacturer pumping moeny in through their UK brand and the 1 RWD left.
@@frl6683 judging by it's grid sizes there was never a market for it and a couple of Btcc teams definitely ran cars in TCR UK, including dynamics
@@frl6683 TCR would be good as a Btcc ladder series on the Btcc support bill, but they had to try and pitch as a rival series with their own events to try and lever their way into the market.
The more it exists the more the causal fans think "well, this is the touring car series isn't it?" And eventually you have two weak series instead of one strong one
It just wasn't needed at all, yet here it is
Except for the fact TCR and BTCC don't even share dates, TCR has affected nothing and in fact helped BTCC - look at Restart Racing getting into BTCC graduating from BTCC.
It was never pitched as a rival series but an alternative and the link up it had with British GT. TCR didn't take any drivers or cars from BTCC - In the formative years where the championship was run as a shitshow honestly (and was until 2021), Ciceley and HARD ran cars to test new drivers out. Exactly like a feeder series should be@@cdname47
Best seriesies going still IMO.
And still great in person viewing
I hope that a part of the solution comes in the form of making it accessible to international audiences.
Here in the US, our only option comes in the form of highlight shows aired on MAVTV, a cable channel with rather limited reach that doesn't even offer any of its programming on demand.
That's right- we're in 2024 and the only motorsports network in the high profile US market doesn't have ANY on demand or broadcast replay options.
I wish every racing series would do what ELMS and the Le Mans Cup do. Stream it live, then upload the full TV highlights show to CZcams (a paid streaming service would be fine too if it must happen) about a week or 2 after the event.
The problem seems to be that too many in the motorsports industry think that everyone's going to go back to TV and that on demand online distribution doesn't seem to be a priority.
In the case of BTCC, I think it would experience better exposure if TOCA were to upload what they air on MAVTV to CZcams or another streaming service and make it easier for people who don't have time to plan around a time to sit in front of a TV to watch their content.
Highlights of BTCC also feature on Motorsport Mundial- another motorsports show badly in need of better international distribution and availability.
The BTCC is still the only car series that seems to draw consistently decent crowds at UK circuits so there's still plenty of interest in it. I wonder if part of the issue is that the cars don't match the type of cars people buy these days - crossovers and SUVs are the main type of car not the hatchbacks that are in the BTCC. The hybrids seem a waste of money if it isn't encouraging the manufacturers back into the series - I doubt a single fan cares that the cars use a hybrid system. Another issue that I don't think the video mentioned is that for the drivers paying for their seat (most of the grid) you can get better value from GT racing, and you can boast you are racing a Ferrari or Porsche not a Focus or Astra.
GT racing just makes far more sense for young drivers now. You can either partner with a rich gentleman/am driver for years and earn a decent chunk of money, or catch on with a manufacturer and become a works driver for Porsche, Mercedes, BMW etc. With so many series around the world using GT3 and sports car racing thriving right now, I know which option I'd choose if I was a young racing driver today. BTCC's just a dead end career wise, and the only thing it has going for it is the TV deal. But even that counts for less now when so many series stream races for free online.
The crowds are considerably down on past years,the series has had its day.
I have to say its more down to the cost, the NGTC cars cost a fare whack to build, the TBL's which put off a lot of privateers joining the grid. Also some manufactures are not going to support a car, that is just a spaceframe silhouette of their production car. One privateer team was nearly bankrupt when it 1st kicked off, when they built the insignia. Then introduction of TBL licence which bumped the cost even further. Ok it stabilized the grid to a certain degree, but it sort of put the brakes on new teams coming in, due to the cost as i mentioned, plus some the lack of second hand cars, when they do they are practically end of life and a TBL is needed to run one. The hybrid system has been the final nail in the cost and about finished the smaller teams that were in, wanting to build new cars. Hence why the teams that have the money are running more than 3 cars. Its now looking if you want to start up in the BTCC as a team, you are going to have to have massive wages and i mean massive. I read about Team HARD's troubles over the years, and it was said they went under, but no evidence of that. It looks like they have had to take stock, this year and scale down two cars. To me the NGTC and hybrid regs has to go like, for the sake of cost. They really need to sort of go TCR Regs and adapt them for rear wheel drive
Such a shame how it is now. I've attended btcc around the country for decades. Agree that 95-98 was it's high point. The latest cars from a spectator point of view are dull turbo boxes. But then I guess so are the production cars they represent. I miss the screaming V6 Mondeo, the 5 cylinder Volvo's and the BMWs of yesteryear.
As Dan lloyed had to find 100k just to drive . the cost are way over the top . with 4 teams running 4 cars each is going to be the end of BTCC . teams cant run unless people pay and if a team goes bust its a big chunk of the grid gone . i cant see it surviving as it stands . the hybrid was the worst gas lighting BTCC did to themselves
You're looking 700k for a season in a top team. Unless you're Team HARD who let some people race for
The days of big budget manufacturer vs manufacturer aren't going to happen again, they don't want to go racing in that way now, at least not in touring cars. We are starting to see some series go down the SUV/ Crossover route more manufacturers ditching saloons and now even hatchbacks. Gow has said he's open to this and it might attract some manufacturers but only in the limited 'dealer team' sense as we have now.
One thing that was good about NGTC was the ability of smaller teams to build and create their own car rather than rely on manufacturer hand me downs but that seems to have slowed down now, the Team Hard Cupras being the last. The VW, Mercedes and Audi were all examples of this as was the Infiniti.
Team Dynamics had already lost the works Honda deal, then Halfords pulled out and, as we saw, Steve Neal died in 2023 after being ill for sometime - this could all have played a part in their withdrawal. With the Civics drop in competitiveness over the last couple of seasons its not surprising that One Motorsport also stepped back, if they don't have the budget to build a new car without manufacturer support they were probably looking at another season like last, possibly worse.
Another potential problem is the future ban on sale of new fossil fuelled cars, even though this has been pushed back to 2035 as that looms closer its going to become less and less attractive for manufacturers to go racing in series such as this.
STCC has already gone down the electric route but I hope the BTCC doesn't follow suit. I don't mind electric cars but I'm not a fan of the in racing.
They will definitely have a place long term (on the road rather than track) but I just don't see it being viable that they will completely replace all petrol/ diesel cars. A stupid hypothetical I know but if 100% of people switched to electric this year the infrastructure isn't there to support them and something that is never mentioned is how could the grid support having to charge millions more vehicles without a significant increase in power sources. Obviously that isn't going to happen but it takes many years to get a new Nuclear power plant commissioned, solar and wind facing huge opposition (potential 750 acre solar farm near me that people are already getting a bee in their bonnet over) and tidal power projects never seem to get off the ground or end up scrapped.
The other alternative - Hydrogen - this is ultimately where we are going to end up, electric is a stop gap, manufacturers are pushing for Hydrogen at Le Mans/ in WEC and they would only be doing that if they believed this was the way forward. It's going to take time to get to the point where they are viable for the majority, lots of development to be done, problems with creating it on the scale required and providing the infrastructure. If these problems can be overcome this is where I see BTCC ending up, its some way in the future and we will potentially see even smaller grids than we have now but the BTCC has been through difficult transition periods before.
Hydrogen combustion engines have the bonus of still sounding great, as the Hydrogen Toyota Corolla race car showed, this is definitely preferable to electric.
Sustainable fuel would just add more expense as its more expensive than the fuel they currently use. Something does need to change, but I don't see the hybrid system getting removed any time soon as it shows the initiative of using greener energy which stops the likes of activists jumping on the band wagon, regardless of how it's used and whether they really understand it. Putting the ballast back in would only add to the weight of the cars therefore using more fuel. Doesn't help with the current price hikes of literally EVERYTHING in this country ATM either. I love the BTCC I have been around it since I was 6 (now 30) I've seen it change many times but it always does what it needs to survive
What exactly, are they referring to as push to pass?
R.I.P BTCC its Dead,, inless they get rid of this Hybrid Rubbish its killing it MASSIVE TIME ,,, bring back Success Ballast how it was & should be to keep going forward ,,, . since the Hybrid i know a lot of ppl out there who just not intrested at all now. i use to go to all BTCC races for many many years but not now its just pure Boring ...
I loved BTTC in it's peak, but the whole championship was quite simple to follow and understand the scoring, and the championship was basically manufacturers battling each other.
This worked great, because people always have favourite cars, and when you were a kid, you might support the same car your dad drove (a lesser road-going model, but still, basically the same bodyshell).
It has become too bloated, too complicated, and far too expensive.
It needs to get back to a cheaper entry system, so that grass roots motorsport drivers can work their way up to it.
Also, having cars which look more like the ones you can buy and drive on the roads, makes it a lot more relatable.
I'm old enough to have gone to watch the Super Tourers at Oulton park (long live the Rapidfit Mondeos!) as a kid with my dad, and then watching on/off on TV though the Plato/Neal/Turkington era that followed.
Last year, if nothing but for nostalgia sake, we went back to watch the Oulton round live and have to say that.. whilst enjoyable.. what hit me was the complete lack of spectacle relative to what I remember. Yes memories will be tinged with nostalgia but the cars sounded quiet and tinny, the racing seemed way less aggressive, no crashes, or proper argy bargy.. and that was just the cars. When I went in the 90s/00s the infield was packed with "cool stuff" to see, the latest hot hatches from all the manufacturers, racing simulator, grid girls handing out merch etc. Barely a shadow of that in 2023.
Hate to say it but per comment below the key unspoken issue is manufacturers moving to electric SUVs and this killing off sporty saloons and hatches in their product lines. The funding is going to keep ebbing away from the sport and, as the grid sizes etc shrink with it, the audiences will too. It's obviously a sad state of affairs but the Super Touring and 'mid 2010s' renaissance that followed really were an incomparable high point that I don't think will ever really be captured again.
Obviously hope I'm wrong, but after my first time trackside in a long time in 2023. Just didn't feel the magic that I used to previously.
BTCC adopting the TCR regulations could have a major impact on the TCR World Tour (9 full season entries last year I think it was!)... I remember 2005 with 11 cars on the grid at Donington Park, so TOCA have done something right to get the numbers to where they are.
I do think that TCR has got the formula right and it has to be the way to go, costs will come down, cars are widely available as well.
I saw very little of the BTCC last season, every race weekend was a working weekend for me, but the hybrid systems didn't add much excitement. Option tyres, success ballast was better and more chance of a recovery drive in R2 or R3 if you had a shocker in R1.
What will happen in a few years time when most of these class of cars dont exist..?... the British crossover championships...dont think so..
I don't know, whole package seems quite boring now.
The car livery's are really awful and the drive train in the cars is dull as dishwater. In 1998 all the cars sounded remarkably different
Tbh iv not watch btcc for a good few seasons, I lost interest in it. Last season I watched was when Camish just missed out at Brand's in the team dynamics civic.
A wider issue from a spectators perspective is the lack of value for attending the events. In 2019 you had that 30 car grid, wide range of manufacturers and an unrivalled support package. TOCA lost the Ginetta package to British GT and that was a huge loss, those support races were fantastic and now the support aren't as consistent/great. When weighing up what to see British GT is a no brainer for me. They've got a 36 car grid, record numbers of GT3, wide range of manufacturers, F3, F4 and the whole Ginetta support package and the tickets are ten pounds less for the day! Haven't bothered with BTCC since the finale of the 2019 season.
I agree but I was disappointed that GB3 won’t be at Snetterton this year supporting British Gt3 on one of four away rounds.
But as you say British Gt looks solid.
The issue here is rising prices. There needs to be a cost cap for a start. Furthermore, more manufacturers should be able to produce hybrid systems. This introduces competition into the marketplace reduces costs.
@Aduki65 Thank you for the clarification.
I think this year is going to be a strong year, should be closer at the top and in the mid pack. Definitely quality over quantity. But also One Motorsport did announce they will return to the grid for 2025. What will be interesting is to see come 2026 with upcoming rule changes.
been to snetterton for btcc most years for about last 15 years. Plato's last season the crowd was dead, half the trade stands gone, crowd didnt even cheer / clap the parade lap. shite
The biggest thing is that the BTCC has no prize money. There's no reward for winning races or even the championship, just whatever the sponsors will pay.
This is why TCR is doing better, they have a prize. Think it's £250,000 or less but that's your season almost paid for if you win
I loved it in times of Gerry Marshal etc but now prefer GT racing throughout Europe. V8 saloons are also great. Think it must be the sounds which feed my head, love it. Rally cross is also a great sport with soft contact I think the only FIA sport allowing contact.
I miss the success ballast. Not only for it being cheaper to run but the racing was easier to watch too as you didn’t have to work out who’s using the hybrid in battles and how many uses each driver has left during the race.
Simple for me, touring cars should Road saloons modified same block, gearbox casing etc and then lower them bigger brakes not stock but max spend per car per season! Privateers should have a chance of a shock! The old 2.0litre series was the most fun! Now they have some many pattern parts you can’t even see what car is what?
Currently we are in the late 1990's 🙃
Ive been watching BTCC since early 90’s… the well names golden years. Toca support package back then was excellent. Formula ford, formula Renault, Clio cup, ginettas.
Many drivers cut their teeth on support series , namely clios with Ash Sutton, Dan Rowbottom, Mike Bushell , Max Coates etc coming through the ranks.
The past few years, not meaning to be disrespectful , the support races have been horrendous. The series cannot survive on BTCC alone. Im involved with a Lincoln based team , Finsport who are bringing back the Finsport Renault Cup, so hopefully clios will survive
I never understand why they have the open wheelers and Porsches on the same package. Good series in their own right but not the correct cars for a touring car event. It needs Minis, Clios, Fiestas etc etc. Personally I think they should showcase a different club level tin top series at each event as well.
Team Dynamics were pooped on and left high and dry by a driver, without enough time to re-organise before the season start iirc. That forced their 'hiatus'.
Honda shutting down the UK plant and pulling their funding didn't help either....
Changing regs again will only put more costs on the teams. Either leave as is or remove hybrid, the ideas of new regs, TCR merging, or same cars with another new engine, will all only make any problem worse, as at each regulation change the bigger teams have more resources to get on top of the challenges quickly.
Also, 2023 was still pretty good racing versus basically any other series in the UK or abroad. The fact 1 driver wrapped up the championship in round 28/30 doesn't change that.
You really don’t want to do the DTM thing. I live 5 miles for the Hockenheimring and the ADAC GT Masters (rough equivalent to the British GT3) was a great affordable weekend.
When DTM went GT3 it ruined the ADAC series.
I personally like the hybrid system and the BTCC format.
The BTCC reminded me a little of NASCAR racing from when I lived in the states. Drivers having “real” conversations on and off the track and being honest in interviews and not the thrice polished over comments you get in Formula sports.
I believe that the hybrid system shows the fundamental flaw in hybrid powetrains: you get all the advantages but also disadvantages of both.
When I had to get a new company car in 2022 I seriously planned on going hybrid but the fiddly nature of it and the added cost made me go pure EV. (I am very very very lucky that I can charge at home).
My hope would be as time goes the cost can come down mostly because there are more staff who can handle the hybrid side of things better.
For example I know of several people who have converted cars to EV and they spend hours tinkering and tweaking the electric drivetrain.
It has taken them all 3-4 years to really get to know their cars because frankly there was no one around to teach them.
Personally I think there is a general lull in interest in Motorsport.
People don’t get the complexities and mash up of tech, project management, athleticism and adrenaline.
Just going for pure speed and burning resources puts people off.
I don’t agree with them but that is often what I hear when I mention I love Motorsport but also love renewables and other new climate tech…
Cost and too many fingers in the financial pie .
Entry fees , TV rights, ticket sales and where does all this big money go ???
Every race series driver / team on that weekend pays extremely high entry fees and Tv rights and the men in suits profit from it like venture capitalists.
Over complicated rules / regulations and let’s not forget the drivers usually have to find sponsors too .
I’m an engineer and also build race cars but I dread to think how much a BTCC front and rear subframe is plus all the other mandatory junk .
I think you are getting mixed up with manufacturers, and makes. The only teams that have manufacturer support are BMW, and Toyota. BTCC hasn't had any full works teams for many many years. Alan Gow has also been trying to run down the size of the grid for a long time. Go back about 5 years and he said he wanted to reduce the grid to 25-26 cars.
I use to love the BTCC, use to spend my entire Sunday dedicated to it. But then in the late 2010s it just felt like so much money and new rules were being forced into it that the fun went. Barely ever get any rough racing, no on track rivalries, no big characters like plato, neal, chilton, Jackson that you can get behind and really have a favourite driver (yes I’m aware a couple of them still race but it’s still not the same) I find myself breaking out the box sets and just watching 90/00s seasons if I want to watch something.
Unfortunately..the series just doesn't have the pizzazz it used to...this is why all over the world most people who love saloon car racing are watching historic racing..the crowds flock to the goodwood members meeting..the revival..Silverstone classic ..and many other race meeting's around the country..capri gaa,sd1 rover..r32 skyline, rs500,lotus cortinas these vehicles have a soul that modern cars cannot match..especially when they are driven by many of those that piloted them in their day...and ..ive not even mentioned the Australian touring car masters series...modern cars are just ..boring. no matter who the driver is..and there are some very good drivers today..its the regs..and the cars that just dont engage with folk...unlike 550bhp of yb goodness...for example..
I think TCR is the unfortunate answer, it’s SO much cheaper than BTCC and also there is a market for the cars when they get outdated/replaced… whereas the current btcc cars just get scrapped
Hybrid is fine for big series such as F1 and the new WEC regulations have definitely hit the ground running but for a national series that was doing well with factory and customer teams it is very sad to see. The NGTC were supposed to reduce costs and improve racing but with many favourite drivers struggling to find budget for sponsorships due to the increasing costs I think this is more to do with the state of the country as a whole at the minute.
Costs for everything has gone up and the racing hasn’t improved. I don’t like hybrid system for touring cars, look at the WRC it’s failed to attract new manufacturers.
Sustainable fuels are the future, and keeping the cars simple and affordable. If this continues we will be lucky to still have 20 cars in the grid in another 2 years.
TCR is a dead end as it is relying on manufacturers. NGTC at least had the possibility of dealerships supporting teams with cars which the teams then had to build into a race car but as dealerships also are struggling, I don’t think it’s an option either. The best for BTCC is to create new regulations which are not dependent on either dealerships or manufacturers, that is silhouette regulations. Let the teams choose bodies from the Super Touring days and put them on a space frame with a good engine in it.
As allways it comes down to value for money. If a manufacturer can't market what it produces, ie race on Sunday sell on Monday, they understandably will not be interested. Championships which have had the foresight to keep their cost down, largely by having regulation that discourage teams from trying to buy success, are currently thriving with full grids at most rounds.
More production based racers with closely policed technical regs. is the obvious answer. If the car is unreliable and slow, it means the car is not a good product to consider purchasing. The way it should be.
The coverage only tells me the driver name and the team name.
NOT the actual car .
I don't know what car I'm looking at as a casual observer. I used to go to Brands Hatch every Sunday in the 70s for club and historic.
They should have gone TCR a few seasons ago. NGTC was always a strange move and took the cars away from the fundamentals of touring car racing. Just as in the WRC, they're also being strangled by an expensive single supplier for the hybrid system. TCR does require manufacturers to build them, but at least they are customer cars, so can be run by private teams. The problem now is that btcc switching would step on the toes of TCR UK. They should probably merge, but I suspect there would be ego issues there
Awesome video! Agree with you about taking out the Hybrid technology like Rally had done :-)
13:35 an option could be that the series merge with TCR UK and run TCR regulations and at least teams could do what they used to do in the S2000 period in entering a car in any TCR event around the world *EDIT* 14:29 you were about to say about it anyway
@Aduki65 TCR is really popular around the world, I remember TCR Germany had up to 44+ cars at one point few years back and TCR have 3000+ cars built, the current regs cars possibly only got around 50 - 60 or more cars built to the regulations
I used to watch it avidly in the days when we has Seirra Cosworths battling with Rover SD1s , great racing, now the cars are too similar and it seems the most reliable overtaking manoeuvre is to get close and when the rear goes light under braking give it a nudge. Not much if any more interesting than the current F1.
I wish i could watch the races though. No way to see them outside of the UK.
You can now. Every race is being streamed live on Tik Tok
Costs going up. Hybrids regs is the reason teams leaving the series.
Ashley Sutton just too quick 👍
BTCC, and rest of touring cars used to be good when they where aloud to hit each other (car on car) but since they can't do it anymore, it become so boring and i feel like whenever i watch it, they are scared of overtake each other
Everything now has been levelled, making it boring, i am starting to think the BTCC is going to end up like the WTCC did, with the cost. Ending up been too expensive and the series ended up folding and been rebooted.
@@procta2343 it's not just BTCC, it's the same across all touring car championships across the world like in TCR World Tour (replacement for WTCC)
@@AdamHinckleyi often wonder if its the turbo side of things not helping, things been capped off. When it was NA it was different thing.
@Aduki65 I brought up with close contact racing that BTCC and other touring cars used to be like
@Aduki65 to me, the drivers now are scared these days to do any overtaking, if they stayed as they were 10 or so years ago, i would still be watching it now
I honestly think they should scrap the hybrid and bring back the old times, so we can get other teams can rejoined the seriese every year. To get more cars on the grid
@BTCC be careful what decisions you guys do next after this seriese is finished
Aiming for net zero carbon but top 8 can only use hybrid for roughly 5 seconds a lap when laps are generally 60s 🙈
Tbh id rather see the top 8-12 have a boost restriction but keep the same hybrid useage across all cars.
Ash, tom, Colin t and jake had some races that looked way too comfortable with only 1s of hybrid
@Aduki65 hopefully the increase in power does make more of a difference.
carbon footprint what a load of bollox
1/ they should also look at tyre regs all cars race on the same tyre, and bring in an intermediate tyre for semi wet conditions.
2/ all drivers should have won at least 1 championship prior to be eligible for a place in btcc
3/ forget the carbon scam. Yes use better fuels but co2 itself is not an issue - we breathe out co2!!
4/ defo get rid of the complex & costly hybrid system.
5/ according to some the btc class regulations were some of the best so maybe adapt them to accommodate modern cars?
as not from being from the UK i see a few other this aswell of missing from this. Although the pandemic itself has sorted itself out, it did bring higher costs and delays. The same way you could say the brexit also had and impact aswell as the wars going around. That all causes uncertainties and higher costs on top of the hybrid.
Although you could debate that hybrid isnt completly the problem. TCR Europe and TCR World also have been in a difficult situation. And a quick check on wiki is that TCR UK isnt growing aswell really. Also the Australian "V8" Supercars is struggling with its identity. Therefore you could say that Touring Cars in general are lacking a certain factor at the moment and the increased costs, difficulties and wider world issues wont help. Eventhough not direct competition, the increase of popularity of f.e. F1 and WEC always have a certain impact for other series.
In my opinion the decreasing lack of entries has to do is that the series doesnt give the value that teams need to secure "easy" enough sponsorship to cover costs. But importantly sponsorship is not the same as equalling costs. As with F1 they basically now get so much more money than what they actual can spend, which is so different compared to not even 10 years ago. That is something that is a long term strategy, but needed bold choices to achieve that by the series actually together with teams and partners. A series who went through a hell is for example the World and European Rallycross championships, which ironically has the WRC as promotor.
Overall that means that at one side need to lower the costs, and on the other side increase the series value in every aspect. With this in mind I think going for a set of regulations like GT3 or TCR shouldnt really be an option. I dont think this would really solve something. And as you said the NGTC regulations really does make the BTCC series stand out and also make it possible to come with cars that race nowhere else.
Saying that removing the hybrid system would solve something would need more investigation, because it can also be an important factor for sponsorships to be onboard. If the costs in the end bring more value, than the choice is quite simple to keep it actually. Bringing sustainanble fuel doesnt also automatically mean lower costs also, because a liter of that costs more than the fuel they now use. What maybe could be an option is that there would be a seperate class for non-hybrid cars or for older spec NGTC cars. But again, that need to be investigated if that would actual attract entries.
How to increase value of the series is also interesting. Maybe try to make the BTCC part of the F1 race at Silverstone, just like the Australian Supercars is that at the Melbourne Grand Prix. Or why isnt the On The Limit documentary being pushed on Netflix or something. When the value comes, the more sponsors, partners, manufacturers, etc. want to be part of it, or at least easier to convince.
Well, the series has been through much worse periods before, the mid 1980s and the decline of Supertouring/pre-Super 2000 era for instance.
Can you also do the current issue with F1?
Racing is racing...u cant make it environmentally friendly,it has to be raw,fast and exciting!
BTCC just needs to revert to a less complex racing series. Saloon car racing that allows ma ufacturers to use innovative measures be it hybrid tech, synthetic fuels etc. Yes some blanket regulations. But it needs factory teams back.
Money money money.
Hybrid has it's issues but this is the biggest threat to the BTCC as well as other racing leagues.
Great drivers get missed because of the money involved and teams drop out for the same reason
BTCC had the perfect setup with success ballast,to keep the eco world happy they introduced the hybrid system to the cars and the series has become dull.Ive been watching British Touring cars since the mid 80's but if the 24 season isn't an improvement on 22 & 23 I think i'll pass on it.
It was more about making it easier for manufacturers to justify their involvement and ticking boxes for some larger sponsors. Would Toyota be involved without the hybrid? Make or break for hybrid this year I feel. Twice the power of previous years.
90s BTCC was the GOAT!
All this needs is TCR to get a decent season in terms of number of races and a tv contract together and BTCC is going to look rather excessive in terms of expense. You can buy a TCR Audi RS3 for £150k with spares. A BTCC car is almost 4 times this. Lends perspective.
Hmmmm, I don't know much about the BTCC to have an opinion about it
Hybrid is a gimmick in btcc. Its only used to boost power on existing engines, does nothing for carbon footprint. On top of this, too many spec parts is giving the series the same problem that one make racing has, the cars all perform the same. Early ngtc era had similar laptimes from varied performance dynamics. Ie some cars had straightline speed, some cornered better. It allowed better passing. BTCC needs to remain a privateer series, as manufacturers can't promote speed anymore. Unlike le mans, which is a place to showcase and develope their own hybrid technology, or wrc where they could potentially switch to all crossover suv's and market it's proven ruggedness and go anywhere ability, btcc has nothing to offer manufacturers. The few remaining ones just add budget to existing teams, they're not full factory efforts. BTCC needs to remain a show, keep costs down, and accept that sprint racing in saloons isn't the place to showcase green technology. I genuinely would love to see green tech, but the nature of the btcc makes it hard to implement anything other than a gimmick.
@Aduki65 the other clue to cost is that we're seeing no new cars. Even the big teams are keeping their 2/3/4 year old chassis. Incomming privateers can't afford to build new cars, lets not forget the infinities, the a class, both a4 and a3 audi's, protons, alfa, and the original toyota avensis, were all self built by privateers. Probably forgot a few, but as many models were affordably built by part timers, and raced competitivly.
Manufacturers aren't overly interested, both hyundai and toyota jumped in with financial support after the teams were running the cars.
I can't even keep up anymore
when are we gonna learn hybrid is killing the sport?
only WRC seems to have gotten the memo. The rest keep insisting on them even if it's obvious they don't bring shit to the competition and only cause problems
Its plain and simple, team don't like the hybrid rules as they are stupidly expensive to run and the push to pass system doesn't work. Personally ive watched less and less BTCC races since the NGTC regs came in back in 2011, im not a fan of the Turbo engines and the boost regs they use/used, plus the driving standards were terrible. I watched about half of 2020, 4 or 5 in 2021, half of 2022 and 3 or 4 last year as i think the racing is pretty boring.
Personally id end NGTC Regs and go back to more basic rule set with less aero. Make about the drivers not the cars and id remove the Toca Engine Format as well. Go down more the production class from 2000 - 2004
yeah i think that's when it really started to get silly, when they switched to the NGTC regs, they could have held on with the S2000 regs which is practically close to what the TCR regs are anyway. Its lost more teams that gained if anything. Restart has come in, but again lost Team One, also Team hard have scaled back in cars too. In the last few years before Covid, privateer teams have been walking away from it, and i think with the Hybrid system coming in, has been the final nail in it been worth investing in it. They should go to the TCR Regs, but run 2litre engines as normal, and adapt it for rear wheel drive, for BMW, Hell even let diesel come back and play.
@@procta2343Nah TCRUK is fine as it is. TOCA just need to scale back the cost by removing the hybrid and rewarding teams more with cash prizes like they used to.
_Current_ issue??
I think it needs to go back to basics.
They should have taken the TCR route instead of NGTC from the start, to keep costs down and more manufacturers and factory teams involved. The majority of the grid is now paying to be there which brings in less talent and proper sponsorship to keep it entertaining IMO.
used to love the btcc now its to corporate
Imagine if the BTCC pulls out a DTM and switch to GT regulations lmao
I think having another UK touring car series (TCR UK) doesn’t help.
The 90s were the golden age for the btcc
You didnt need to correct 1991 with 1990 as the start of super touring rules for BTCC, 91 was the start of super touring!