The more you learn about the Miracle of Fatima, the less impressive it seems.
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
- OK so I uploaded this video once and accidently broke all kinds of copywrite laws, so I had to make "significant edits" and reupload. I kinda ruined some parts of it... but hey, someone's gotta look out for the billion dollar companies, right?
For this video, the chapter titles would be too long if I titled them super specifically, so please refer to the below table of claims to help guide you through the video chapters:
Claim 1: That Our Lady predicted the deaths of Francisco and Jacinta
Claim 2: That Our Lady predicted the end of WW1 and the beginning of WW2
Claim 3: That everybody at Fatima saw the Miracle of the Sun
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
1:12 Claim 1 Stage Setting
5:21 Claim 2 Stage Setting
8:37 Claim 3 Stage Setting
12:04 Claim 1 Deep Dive
15:01 Claim 2 Deep Dive
20:06 Claim 3 Deep Dive (people who did see)
29:04 Claim 3 Deep Dive (people who did NOT see)
36:18 Didn't the Pope see it too?
39:54 Tier List & Conclusion
42:17 Bonus Tidbits (SUBSCRIBERS ONLY)
Works Cited:
Full 1952 Film "The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima":
• The Miracle of Our Lad...
"Fatima in Lucia's Own Words", complied by Joaquin Alonso, 2000
www.piercedhearts.org/hearts_...
"Meet the Witnesses of the Miracle of the Sun" by John Haffert, 2006
www.basicincome.com/bp/files/...
"Documentacao Critica de Fatima", compiled by Adélio Fernando Abreu
, 2013 (I think?)
www.fatima.pt/files/upload/fo...
Muslim Apologetic Website Article about Fatima:
muslimskeptic.com/2023/02/02/...
Pope Pius XII say his own Miracles of the Sun in 1950:
zenit.org/2008/11/04/pius-xii...
Skeptical Inquirer Article about Fatima:
skepticalinquirer.org/2009/11...
Article from the Georgia Encyclopedia about the Marian Apparitions at Conyers:
www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/a...
Hashtags (for engagement)
#Catholic #Miracle #faith #catholicchurch #catholicsaints #catholicism #catholictradition #blessedvirginmary
Lucia is pronounced “Loo-see-uh”, not “Loo-chee-uh”. They were Portuguese, not Italian.
Lu-ci-a
🤓🤓🤓
So I’m an extrad who’s still somewhat connected to the church and can I thank you for deconstructing this? I had my first panic attack at 8 or 9 having fallen asleep reading a children’s book about Fatima that showed people burning in hell. I dreamt I was in hell and my mother decided it was appropriate to tell me that I might have seen a vision of my future and should pray I don’t go there for the rest of my life. Naturally this lead to a very toxic understanding of faith and my own worth as a person. All this to say, I really appreciate it when people remove the toxicity from things and maybe even expose some of the logical failings. I really appreciate your work.
Thank you so much for the kind words
It is a curious observation that the vast majority of "private apparitions" in the Catholic Church were (supposedly) experienced by young, single, sheltered females whose every waking thought revolved around Catholicism. It's almost as if the combination of boredom, a young and active imagination, and ingrained beliefs lead to all kinds of supposed "visions." Hmm.
I find all the stories of Marian apparitions kind of intriguing, I think in part because as a cradle Catholic drawn to the figure of Mary, I longed for that kind of connection and experience with her. But then I remember there's a reason the Eastern Orthodox warn against using visualizations in prayer: essentially, it's too easy to let your imagination run away. Then you're left not knowing if your "religious experience" was authentic or a figment of an overactive imagination.
Whatever happened at Fatima, it's at minimum an interesting case study from a psychological point of view. Some of the other Marian stories continue to fascinate me, like all the reports of weeping statues and icons, or the appearance of *something* in the air in Zeitoun, Egypt. Then there are all the reported Eucharistic miracles, saints with stigmata, and all the rest. I've never quite known what to make of all of it.
Anyway, good video. Thanks.
Thank you! Yeah, I find all of this fascinating too, and there are still things about Fatima that I cannot explain, and that I think will never be explained fully. That's what makes these topics so interesting!
The Orthodox also speak of “prelest” which is essentially spiritual deception. Even Lucifer can appear as an angel of light.
Great video! I swear I feel like Trad Catholics know more about this alleged miracle than they do about the history of their own church imo
So true. Some Trad Catholics are more like followers of "Fatamaism" than of "Catholicism".
@@NontraditionalCatholicI have never once met anyone that meets that description. Not once.
@@msj5885 Good! I have, though. The FSSP chapel that I attended growing up is named "Our Lady of Fatima Chapel", so you can imagine that we were a particularly devoted bunch when it came to Fatima.
@@msj5885 Oh please. Every trad parish has a disproportionate attachment and devotion to Fatima. Who are you kidding?
Thanks for this video Kevin!
The our lady of fatima movie with lofi music is a vibe though ngl
I was always fascinated by this story and how thousands supposedly saw the sun "dance" Thank you for your deep dive into the history and accounts on this.
Happy to help!
I have no clue how I wound up on this video but it was really interesting!
I have no idea either but I'm glad you're here haha!
Hey kevin! I dont know if this a dumb question but what is the diffence between a trad cath and a roman catholic?
There is no such thing as a dumb question! Generally speaking, a "Trad", or a Traditional Catholic, is a Catholic who primarily attends a Church that celebrates the mass in Latin. Trads are "Roman Catholics", since they do the mass in Latin, but not all Roman Catholics are Trads, since Roman Catholics include the Novus Ordo.
@NontraditionalCatholic Thabks for clarifying kevin! So their wouldnt be any major differences right?
@@gg2008yayo there can be. For instance, some Trads, like the SSPX and the SSPV, claim that Vatican 2 is an invalid council. Some though , like the FSSP, are more or less just regular Catholics with aesthetic preferences.
It is your opinion to believe or not. Tell me, what do you think of the multiple apparitions of Our Lady of Zeitouin in Egypt? Hundreds of thousands witnessed it for well over a year. Mass hysteria? I think not. She appeared on the top of a Coptic church. Many Muslims saw her.
The idea that we can choose what we believe is called "Doxastic voluntarism", and I actually do not accept Doxastic voluntarism. That is to say that I do not think that anyone chooses their beliefs, in the same way that you do not choose whether your heart beats or not. Also, I don't know much about Our Lady of Zeitouin, and to be honest, I don't plan on looking too much into that one. That apparition is considered a non-Catholic apparition, since it occurred in a Coptic area. Wikepedia says "As the apparition appeared over a Coptic church, the Vatican left the investigation to the Coptic authorities", so I do not think that the Catholic Church has ever officially approved this apparition, though I may be wrong here. I only have so much time, and I am not super interested in the Orthodox Church, so I will continue looking into Catholic apparitions like Fatima, such as Guadeloupe, Lourdes, La Salette, etc, and I will leave Zeitouin to my Orthodox friends.
@@NontraditionalCatholic it's a shame you don't want to have a look at it. Coptics are Catholics. Zeitouin is believed to be a stopping place for the holy family when they fled to Egypt to escape Herod.
@@NontraditionalCatholic
“The apparitions lasted for three years. They were investigated by the Coptic Church and Roman Catholic Church and were accepted by both.”
Wikipedia article for the Church of the Virgin Mary (Zeitoun)
@@henriquesemide2741 That's interesting... one Wikipedia article specifically says that the Vatican never investigated this one, with another Wiki article specifically saying that the Vatican did investigate? If the Vatican really did investigate this one, then I will actually do a deep dive on it. Do you know where I might be able to read more about whether or not the Catholic Church was involved in any way?
Not all Coptics are Catholic. There are Coptic Catholic Christians and Coptic Orthodox Christians, but Our Lady of Zeitouin is an Orthodox apparition. The church that the apparition took place at is a Church that is part of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria. It was approved by Pope Kyrillos VI, who was an Orthodox Pope, not a Catholic Pope.
The people who came to the faith certainly found it impressive. You didn't mention that Lucia's mother even went from harsh skeptic to believer eventually following the events.
The 1% claim is a little strange. If thousands of people saw something miraculous, but no one did a comprehensive collection of data to get an accurate percentage of people who saw something, I wouldn't at all be surprised. Let's say we have a half-dozen accounts of the wild popularity of the song Yankee Doodle Dandy. I'm not going to doubt it just because it's only based on the testimony of so few when those few testimonies say everyone they knew could whistle it. The farther we get from an event, the less empirical data we will have to work from, and the more we will feel the need to have it. Maybe I'm unsophisticated, but I doubt eyewitness accounts to events a lot less than I doubt debunkers operating from the hard position that (Christian) miracles don't happen.
The prevailing theme for the Church is the imperative of turning away from sin and turning towards the faith’s vision for goodness in the world and what comes after. This stands as the most prominent need of our era and remains the core message of Fatima. One characteristic of Christ's time on Earth was the astonishing signs and wonders He performed in Palestine, commonly referred to as His miracles. He restored sight to the blind, granted the ability to hear and speak to the deaf and mute, enabled paralytics to walk, and healed the afflicted, infirm, and lame with just a word and the touch of His hand. He even calmed raging storms at sea and beckoned Peter to walk on water towards Him. He intentionally allowed Lazarus to succumb to death and decay in the tomb before summoning him back to life.
Jesus also spoke with human words, imploring us to know the love of the Father, to forgive one another, and to live in the Spirit.
So what is more remarkable-restoring the health of the sick or converting sinners? According to St. Augustine, it is a greater demonstration of divine power to reconcile a sinner with God's friendship than to resurrect Lazarus from the dead.
I define a miracle as an unexpected phenomenon, transcending the understood capabilities of the natural world, that points to some truth pertaining to God. In physical miracles, God surpasses the laws of the physical world, akin to the wonders witnessed at Palestine. In moral miracles, God surpasses the sinful limitations of human will, redirecting it towards obedience to God's will - from unbelief to faith in Jesus Christ and from estrangement from God to humble submission to God's love.
This, fundamentally, is the central mission of Fatima. Our Lady was the one who persuaded her Son to perform His first miracle at the wedding in Cana, and she continues to intercede for miracles to occur today, on Earth. These miracles are intended to guide a world burdened by sin back to faith in God and adherence to His divine will. That seemed to happen at Fatima to some extent.
I'm here for it all the way.
(Also, it's pronounced "LUHbck, not luhBOK, Texas. I wouldn't want any ornery Texans coming after you hahahaha)
I certainly agree that at least dozens of people saw something at Fatima that impressed them ("impressed" here being the understatement of the year haha). Something weird happened there, something that I cannot explain (and I don't think anyone else can explain it either, if I may be so cynical!). I never heard that Lucia's mother became a believer, and I did a decent amount of digging! I couldn't find that in "Fatima in Lucia's Own Words", all I found was Lucia talking about her mom didn't believe her at the time of the apparitions. Do you know where I can do some more reading about Lucia's mother?
I don't entirely disagree with you about the "farther we get from an event, the less empirical data we will have to work from" point. But I suppose I have a higher standard of evidence for a Solar Miracle than I do for the popularity of a song in the 19th Century or something less spectacular like that. And to make the analogy even, we would need to have interviews of people saying that nobody they know ever listens to Yankee Doodle, since we do have accounts of people at Fatima who say that nobody around them saw anything.
And with regards to the rest, I do actually find myself very sympathetic to a understanding of Fatima as some kind of event where no laws of nature were broken but it was still an event that God used to instill a deeper faith in some people or something like that - a "naturalism friendly" understanding of Fatima. I would really have no major concerns there. And with a somewhat modified understanding of what "sin" is, I can echo your "being here for it all the way" too! I know I could use some guidance, and I am sure that the whole world could use some guidance too!
(also, thank you for saving me from the angry Texans who are almost certainly marching up to Kentucky as we speak!)
Why is God so inefficient when bringing the world back to Him? Why did He not nip this problem in the bud? Man can only do so much with his apologetics- purportedly, your God can do all things, and had done such significant things as open up salvation for man (thousands of years after the Fall, no less), flood large swathes of the Earth, implicate Himself directly in wars and cleansings. Not to mention natural disasters, 'hardenings of heart' and the like. It cannot be said He cares much for a radical libertarian free will.
It is as though you believe this is the best of all possible worlds.
@@NontraditionalCatholic I can't remember where I read it, but I'm pretty sure the father believed while the mother and sisters came to believe later. Here's what Chat GPT says: "Lucia's mother, Maria Rosa dos Santos, was apprehensive about the events and was concerned for her daughter's well-being. However, as the apparitions continued and gained attention from others in the community, including some who witnessed the "Miracle of the Sun" on October 13, 1917, Lucia's mother, along with many others, gradually came to accept the authenticity of her daughter's accounts and the significance of the messages conveyed during the Fatima apparitions." Now if you don't trust ChatGPT, then who can you trust? hahahahahaha
@@FrJohnBrownSJWhat dark times are these that young men cannot trust even ChatGPT!! Haha but more seriously, I did do the same exercise as you, getting the same response, and then I followed it up with "Where can I read more about Lucia's mother, Maria Rosa?" Here is the response that I got back:
*Information about Lucia dos Santos' mother, Maria Rosa, is not as widely documented or publicly available as the information about Lucia herself and the events at Fatima. Maria Rosa lived a relatively private life, and her role in the events at Fatima was primarily that of a concerned parent.
To learn more about Maria Rosa, you may need to refer to biographies or historical accounts related to the Fatima apparitions and the lives of the three children involved (Lucia dos Santos and her cousins Francisco and Jacinta Marto). These sources may provide some insights into Maria Rosa's background, her reactions to her daughter's experiences, and how she came to accept the events at Fatima.
Some books and resources that discuss the Fatima apparitions and the lives of Lucia and her family may include details about Maria Rosa:
"Fatima in Lucia's Own Words" by Sister Lucia of Fatima (available in various editions): This book contains the memoirs and writings of Lucia dos Santos, and it may include some references to her family, including her mother.
Biographies of Lucia dos Santos: Biographies of Lucia often include information about her family and the reactions of her parents, including Maria Rosa.
Historical accounts and documentaries about Fatima: Look for documentaries and historical accounts that provide a comprehensive overview of the events at Fatima, as they may touch upon the family background of the children involved.
Catholic Church archives: Some historical documents related to the Fatima apparitions and the lives of Lucia and her family may be available in Catholic Church archives or libraries. These documents may offer insights into Maria Rosa's role and beliefs.
Keep in mind that while you may find some information about Maria Rosa in these sources, her life and experiences are not as extensively documented as those of her daughter Lucia and the broader events at Fatima.*
The only source that I read out of those listed was "Fatima in Lucia's Own Words", so now I know where to look next! Thanks Father!
@@NontraditionalCatholic CZcams won't let me leave a link, but the Fatima Center notes the same thing I said about the mother, although that may not seem objective enough for what you're looking for. Wish I could help better.
Thank you for this video. I'm also a former trad, although still Catholic (and struggling). I always struggled with apparitions in general, and Fatima in particular.
In general, because, while the Church officially says that it is not required for the faithful to believe in any private revelation, their permutation in many aspects of (traditional) Catholic liturgical and devotional life makes them a near requirement to believe. The prayers for the consecration of Russia at the end of low Mass (Fatima), the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts (Margaret Mary Aloque), and the Rosary, which seems to be an oft given penance in the sacrament of confession (Dominic). I tend toward skepticism of visions because of the contradictions they sometimes pose (compared to other visions - the immaculate conception comes to mind), the vagueness of the prophecies which are often left for broad interpretations, the historical revisionism (as you pointed out here with Fatima). Add to that the questionable actions of groups that promote visions, such as the TFP, and non-stop debates in trad circles about these, and I'll just pass - thank you.
When learning about Fatima, I was immediately struck by the ambiguity of parts of the message. I've chuckled that for all the ambiguity in Vatican II that trads gripe about, there's loads here. Two examples are the "Russia will spread its errors" (plural - that means there must be more errors than just communism. What are they?); and "certain fashions" which would offend the Lord (what are these fashions specifically? Is it limited to clothing? Shouldn't you tell us specifics so we don't risk offending the Lord?). Speaking of fashion, Jacinta declares that Mary's dress fell only to the knees, and that she was wearing a necklace and earrings - a marked contrast to the images one finds of Our Lady of Fatima today (you can look this up: Documentação Crítica de Fátima, Cónego Formigão - it's on the official website, page 31, Doc 2. - Formigão was one of the Vatican inquirers into Fatima and is considered by some to be the "apostle of Fatima").
I'm glad that this video served you! And I totally agree about the "option" to believe in certain approved apparitions like Fatima. My church was named Our Lady of Fatima, May 13th is the Feat Day of our Lady of Fatima, soooooo is it really optional? I know that the technical answer is yes, it's still optional, but in practice, it is not optional. Also, about the vagueness, I actually have a video coming out tomorrow all about the 3rd Secret. You may find that that one serves you as well.
@@NontraditionalCatholic Thanks - I sent you an email as well. Looking forward to your next video!
28:41 I think this is a weak argument. I was there on 9/11, saw the buildings burning, saw people jumping from them. I was one of hundreds trying to get into a train station that was questioned about the events of the day. The reporter never reported my comments, but reported others. Not hundreds.
I do get that, but for the situations to be analogous, we'd have to have plenty of people who were in Manhattan on 911 who said that nothing at all happened. So, like, if they only interviewed a couple dozen people and they all said the same, that would be one thing. But they did not. That's the difference, as I see it.
I'm not a Catholic but I do find the notion that people saw something in the sky at Fatima, credible.
There are superficial similarities to the 1994 Ruwa, Zimbabwe UFO sighting at the Ariel school, which was seen by dozens of children and adults. Just like at Fatima, some people were there also said nothing happened, that people were just acting hysterical.
What I take from these things is that what we consider reality is likely stranger than something that fits a materialist paradigm, maybe even raising deeper questions about the nature of consciousness or the mind. And I think that's the underlying theme in these kinds of accounts. They usually act to disrupt peoples pre-existing notions of how the world operates, in some unexpected way. The Ariel UFO sighting occurred at a conservative Dutch Reformed/Calvinist school in rural Zimbabwe, and lead to confrontations and challenges to their worldview in many cases.
When I was a little kid I was an idiot and would look at the sun sometimes. I saw a ton of colors and the sun moved a little bit. Not a miracle, just burning my corneas.
LOL I hope you don't do that anymore! But yeah, the fact that most of the witnesses admit to staring right at the sun seems to lend itself to the idea that the dozens of people who saw something at Fatima were actually experiencing eye damage from staring at the sun.
@@NontraditionalCatholic thankfully I’m not quite as dumb as back then and I no longer do that. My vision is awful now tho and I probly have myself to blame for that 😂
@@NontraditionalCatholicagain. Yet they all walked away from a rain soaked field, completely dry.
@@msj5885 Did you actually watch my video? We have eye witnesses saying that they saw nothing - no sun dancing, no drying effects.
Dude this was amazing!!! I never really dug into Fatima much so this video was a delight. One question, on the second point of WW2, if it was written after why would she get the timing of the pope wrong if she wouldve known it didn't happen around that time?
The only real answer I can give you is "I don't know". But I can speculate. In the introduction to Lucia's fourth memoir, on page 135 of "Fatima in Lucia's Own Words", it says that Lucia's superiors "so stressed the need for haste" that Lucia sent in the first half of her fourth memoir before she even finished writing the rest of it. There was no Google in 1942, so Lucia may have just been reasonably sure that Pius XI was still pope in September 1939, even though he died in February 1939, and so she wrote that down and sent it in without being able to fact check herself.
@@NontraditionalCatholic Well, Imperial Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931, quit the League on Nations in 1933, and invaded China in 1937, committing the rape of Nanjing that year. So technically the Pacific Theatre of World War 2 began as early as 1931.
@@edwardmiessner6502That is true, and I did try to couch my answer in the video as "broadly considered" as having started on Sep 1st, 1939. The reason most people consider WW2 as having started in Sep 1939 is because it wasn't a "world" war until then. There was fighting in the Pacific Theatre, true, but that doesn't constitute a "World" War, not until Europe got involved. At least, this is the opinion of many people. The tricky thing is that Wars aren't like "really real", they are just labels that humans use, so, its not super simple to talk about when a war begins and when it does not and all that.
@@NontraditionalCatholicalso consider that even today, with the ability to instantly fact check anything, many people don't. Or worse yet, they believe it's true because some authority says it's true.
@@stevenwilliams1805 Very good point! I make mistakes all the time haha! Why should Sr Lucia be immune from mistakes?
Thank you, your doing the lords work
Is the children being jailed by a masonic local administrator uncontested, or is that also disputed?
In all my research, I have never come across the claim that the administrator of Vila Nova de Ourem was a Mason. This is news to me haha
@@NontraditionalCatholic It does seem to be a part of the Fatima hagiography. The supposed Masonic administrator was an Artur de Oliviera Santos, and he had the children jailed and threatened them with a painful death - being boiled in oil - if they didn't tell him what the secrets were
I saw you had corrections regarding those who did not see the miracle, but, finding out, they did see the miracle. Did anyone at Fatima, not the traveler who was late, which was a good point that they should’ve still seen it, not see the miracle?
I know of one such case. The case of Izabel Brandao de Melo is recorded in "The Whole Truth About Fatima, Vol 1", in chapter 10, appendix 2. She wrote a letter to her parish priest, in Oct 31, 1917, in which she was expressing her dismay at not having seen anything, despite those around her all claiming to see something. I will comment again with the quote, give me one minute...
"This is what was said by those around me, and what thousands of people affirm that they saw. As for myself, I saw nothing! I could indeed look at the sun and I was terribly agitated to hear everybody shouting that there were extraordinary signs in the sky..." She then goes on to say that she assumes that she was either too unworthy to be granted this vision, or, she simply already had enough faith and therefore had no need to see a sign in the sky like that.
@@NontraditionalCatholic ah okay. I’m familiar with this quote and their only being one is usually used by Catholics as proof that everyone saw it except her and rumors of two other women, though this sort of hand waves the people who just aren’t asked or talk about it. I believe Graham Oppy points that out in an interview, we’re only given accounts were given by authors, and just because Haffert says he hasn’t found anyone who didn’t see anything doesn’t mean it’s true. Probably a bias towards those wanting to talk.
@@christianf5131 Exactly. I can't imagine that "Man sees nothing unusual" would make a good headline haha, so I am not shocked that we only have a few accounts of people who should have seen but did not.
I do not believe in this theory, just to make it clear, but have you ever heard of the Impostor Sister Lucia theory?
I sure have haha, and I think it's a hilarious cope
Allow me to make a scientific observation: the cat's hairs stuck in your microphone are indicative of a very happy household!
Why do people say Lucheea...when it's Portuguese and is not Italian sp is pronounces Lucseea?
"Loothia" - there, I said it.
@@NontraditionalCatholicnão, você diz em italiano
Even if there was a scientific explanation for the miracle it would not mean much to me. I would need to believe people knew the event was going to happen and directed the people there to deceive them.
Really enjoyed your presentation - I am a Catholic but I choose to be pretty skeptical towards private revelations and apparitions mostly because I cringe at the superstitions and cults that often surround them.
Trent Horn made a video a few weeks ago about Protestant vs Catholic miracles and Fatima was brought up - he claimed that there were "newspaper reports describing the event within a day after it happened" did you ever get to investigate these to see if they had any credibility to them ?
There were newspaper reports in the days after October 13th, 1917, and the one newspaper that Fatima fans like to point to is the Communist newspaper ("The Century" in English). recorded that many people did claim to see the sun dance, but it also recorded that they asked one little boy what he say:
**With a sarcastic smile and looking sideways, he did not hesitate in responding to me:**
**“I only saw rocks, carriages, automobiles, horses, and people there!”**
The article ends on an uncertain note:
**It remains to be seen what competent people will say about the macabre dancing of the sun in Fatima today that caused Hosannas to explode from the hearts of the faithful and left a deep impression on them-not leaving indifferent, either, the free thinkers and other not moved by any particular religious impulse, who went to the now-famous heath.**
You can read the full O Seculo article, translated into English, online at the "living fatima" website. I will post a link in another comment below this one, but sometimes CZcams filters links like this.
Here is that link that I promised: livingfatima.com/2016/06/17/how-the-sun-danced-at-noon-in-fatima/
OK, I posted the link. If youtube filters it, you can Google the following and it should be the first link: "Living Fatima How the Sun Danced at Noon in Fatima"
@@NontraditionalCatholic It’s almost like people’s ability to focus is affected by fatigue, heat and dehydration!
@@davethebrahman9870 lol who would have guessed!!
There is an interesting connection between Our Lady of Fatima and the Muslims. Fatima was the daughter of Mohammed, and might be considered equivalent, or certainly similar in the Muslim faith as Mary is to the Catholic faith. Fatima, Portugal was named after Mohammed’s daughter. Of all the many villages why did the Blessed Mother pick Fatima? By doing so her name will forever by associated with a key person in the Muslim faith. It is difficult to accept this is a simple coincidence.
WWI was a very brutal and bloody war almost no one talks about. Both sides used chemical weapons which the winds spread across European civilian populated areas too. Portugal was involved in this war, but even if they weren't, most there probably suffered PTSD or another mental illness from repetitive sickness caused by waves of toxic chemical gases and/or having relatives fighting in it. Some traumatized people can suffer hallucinations, delusions, and illusions with or without the power of suggestion.
Re the two children who died: The Spanish Flu was not an influenza. At the time, doctors treating these patients knew it. Infectees did not have the normal bacteria always present and used to diagnose this specific illness. They did not have the correct symptoms. Most importantly, they suffered abnormal blood clots in their lungs. The powers that be love rewriting history.
Too much background noise during the movie replay. And the purpose for this is ... ?
I had to add that music in order to upload the video at all, due to copyright laws.
There is no mention of Russia until 1942.
Later, Lucia said that the conversion of Russia was not to catholicism, but to their own Orthodox faith (this point was recently remembered by Robert Sungenis in a debate.
But before Communism, Russia was already Orthodox, why would Mary ask for the "conversion" if the Bolchevik were not in power (and persecuting the Orthodox) yet?
I believe that Lucia's words were something like "Mary never said what Russia would convert to, it might not be a conversion to Catholicism", but yeah, still super weird and not what you'd expect from an authentic apparition.
Are you familiar with St. Faustyna Kowalska's claims about Jesus visiting her? Whats Your opinion on that and will You make a video about it? Great Channel about seeking The Truth btw.
Thank you! Yes, I know about St Faustina and Divine Mercy and all that. To my knowledge, there is less to look into there. St Faustina never made these grand statements like Sr Lucia did. Rather, St Faustina just said that Jesus told her that everyone should be dedicated to his Divine Mercy... which seems benign enough? I will look into it more, but were you looking for something specific about St Faustina?
@@NontraditionalCatholic Yeah, I agree there are not many predictions and promises in her encounter, although her story converted many people and thats why its interesting.
Are you, as a ex-trad, familiar with First Fridays Devotion from an older Jesus Apparition? Jesus allegedely promised that whoever takes Communion on first fridays for 9 months will 100% go to Heaven.
Given the fact that many believe in this promise, I think it would very interesting to see the criticical view of this Apparition. Especially if other apparitions/miracles are not as credible as many Catholics say they are.
@@NontraditionalCatholicthe most I remember about the divine mercy painting is that there was supposedly a demons claw hidden in the painting and it was an actual thing for trads to “correct” it by cutting out and covering that section of the painting. There was one guy at our church who did this for many families if I remember correctly.
Please explain your tier system .
Its literally just my special snowflake feelings, there is nothing sophisticated behind it haha - I do try to factor in things like empirical evidence, eye witness testimony, length of time between occurrence and reporting, things like that, but at the end of the day, its just my subjective opinion.
@@NontraditionalCatholicyou should put that in the description box.. are you not aware, the FBI uses the term "rad trads" to label us as domestic terrorists? Are you also not aware, that the government never stops doing anything they start doing that gives them more power? Even using the term is a sign of approval.. Do you know how fast cognitive dissidence can turn a previously normal person into a Nazi? The approval of the boot on our neck is a clear sign..
@@NontraditionalCatholic Really? Are you sure you are not straining the limits of terminological exactitude there? Of course, I’m not calling you a lisr…
@@davethebrahman9870 I might need to add "Professional Lisr" to my resume now...
Nice video! You should also mention the testimony of the leftist journalist Avelino de Almeida who witnessed the event. I believe there are other "enemy" testimonies but can't recall from memory.
Also, you should study the apparitions at Zeitoun (Egypt)
My channel is primarily focused on Catholicism, so I don't plan on covering Zeitoun anytime soon, since that apparition is not a Catholic apparition. If you know any ex- Coptic Orthodox channels though, they might be interested in covering Zeitoun from a skeptical perspective.
@@NontraditionalCatholic That's fair, got you.
If you are interested in Catholic miracles, check out the miracle of the moving _Santo Christo_ crucifix at a church in Limpias (Spain) between 1919 and 1924.
It is not a very well-known miracle for some reason, but I think it has the strongest evidence among all alleged miracles. (with the exception of Zeitoun probably.) Suffice it to say that between 1919 to 1924, thousands of people reported to have seen the statue of Jesus move in a church at Limpias, Spain. Most witnesses said that they saw movements of the eyes and also mouth, but a considerable number of witnesses reported dramatic movements of the whole body. More than 2,000 people declared under oath that they witnessed the statue of Jesus move (they registered their name with the oath in a book in the church currently available), and we have dozens and dozens of written accounts by eyewitnesses.
To read eyewitness accounts, check out the book *The Wonderful Crucifix of Limpias* from author Paul von Kleist written in the midst of the events (1922). This book provides roughly 50 first-hand written eyewitness accounts. (The book is available for free online in its entirety)
There is also an article/critique from Father Herbert Thurston on this miracle which you can also find online for free. In his article, Thurston more or less admits that the events are extraordinary and unique, but believes that a paranormal aptitude of humans is a better explanation than a genuine miracle from God.
There are also other books and articles that provide independent eyewitness accounts that are not found in von Kleist's book, but they are in Spanish and difficult to find/translate (Thurston cites and mentions these books and articles in his article/critique)
Note: I have the specific URL links to von Kleist's book and Thurston's article online that I can send you if you wish. I am not pasting the links here because CZcams does not allow me (tried it several times).
Father Leon from Medjugorie has an amazing story about his encounter with the Blessed Mother. You should give it a listen.
Thank you for making these videos so I don’t have to
LOL happy to serve haha!
I am not sure what point you are trying to make. That the catholic faith is all kind of a joke? What about islam and judaism then? Have you been to Fátima at all?
The point I'm trying to make is that the apparitions at Fatima become less impressive the more you learn about them. It's right in the title haha! What about Islam and Judaism? And no, I've never been to Fatima but would love to go one day!
I didn’t see enough of a strong takedown here to shake my belief in Fatima. Here’s some points to help you strengthen this video in future passes:
1) Lucia was asked to record her memories/conversations after the fact, some would argue ordered, to record her experiences. Was there no discussion at all about Fatima prior to the writing of the memoirs?
2) hindsight is always 20/20. If the second secret was that wrong on the Pope Pius 11th and the start of WW2, why would they push that out to the public, especially after the fact? Wouldn’t they have omitted inaccurate details ( like the movie did ) or correct it to report an accurate prophesy? Wouldn’t this imply a larger coverup by the Church than just a few children pulling the wool over the church?
3) I agree on the idea that not everyone would have witnessed the Miracle, but I’m haven’t heard of anyone claiming that everyone witnessed it in the first place?
This is a really thorough examination of Fatima, coming from protestantism via E.O I've always been suspicious of Fatima and now I can see my suspicion is a good one.
Fascinating about the 1990 case though. History never repeats, huh?
Just a correction, ww2 pretty much started in the early 30’s with Japan
Most historians don't consider WW2 to have started until 1939. But your point is understood. The exact moment that a war begins is entirely subjective. You could choose to consider that the two world wars were just one big war, since there was never any period of global peace between the two.
I’d push back on that. The japanese invasion of china or the italian invasions in Africa were as much a part of that war as anything. The war in europe didnt start til later, but thats a very ethnocentric view. The major players were fighting in theater - that stuff continued through. China and North Africa are huge parts of the conflict, not separate. Either way
The miracle of the sun has also been explained scientifically as a sundog when atmospheric conditions make colors next to the sun. They are also known as mock or phantom suns. Great video.
Thanks! And I didn't include the Sun Dog thing in there because I don't actually think that the evidence that there was a Sun Dog in Portugal on October 13th 1917 is very good (or frankly, existent at all. But how would we prove this? We kinda can't know if the clouds in Portugal contained the right mixture of ice crystals to whatever, you know?). Also, the way that people describe the event doesn't seem to line up with a Sun Dog perfectly. That being said, I do think that some kind of solar event, like a Sun Dog, mixed up with human psychology and emotional priming are certainly more likely than an authentic apparition from the Blessed Virgin Mary!
@@NontraditionalCatholic This is going to sound sarcastic, but I promise I don't mean it that way. How do you figure "a Sun Dog, mixed up with human psychology and emotional priming are certainly more likely than an authentic apparition from the Blessed Virgin Mary!"
How does one come to a conclusion about chances like that? The chances of every miracle must be zero if there is any, and I mean ANY, other explanation no matter how unlikely. Maybe you just meant it rhetorically, but it's worth exploring. What do you do with anomalies? How do you combat confirmation bias? I face the same issue on my side, so I don't mean this as a jab.
@FrJohnBrownSJ You didn’t sound sarcastic and at all, and I certainly didn’t interpret this as a jab! This is an excellent question. Let me outline my thinking and then you can let me know if I am being silly here:
So, we have confirmed historical examples of unusual solar activity, group psychosis, mass hysteria, and irrational behavior thanks to social priming. For examples, we have sun dogs, the Dancing Plague of 1518, the Tanganyika Laughter Epidemic of 1962, and the Nika Riots in Byzantium in 532 CE. But we do not have any confirmed cases of Marian Apparitions, or any other apparitions of long-dead people for that matter. So, I figure that the explanations that have historical precedent are more likely than the explanations that do not.
Let me know what your thoughts are!
@@FrJohnBrownSJ I didn't tag you properly in my response, so here is a second comment just to tag you - sorry!
@@NontraditionalCatholic Well to me even the possibility of a sun dog makes more sense than any "apparition" whether one was happened or not.
As an atheist, sometimes I wish Christianity were as real as it pretends to be. Things would be a lot different if it were all so obviously true and everyone couldn't deny it, but instead we are left alone with the world we have, and with the jaded shadow, and hollow-ringing faith it really is. True salvation, if it were so imperative for heaven and our souls, would save everyone and it would go to much further lengths in miraculousness than a subjective and impressionable wiggling of the sun.
If you need help with translations from portuguese, I would be glad to help.
It is true ww2 began in 1939, but the nazi Germany invaded Austria in 1938. There was even the first invasion of Ethiopia in 1935 by fascist Italy. So before the war was declared, movements towards it had already been done. It's like if a ww3 started now, we would not consider it started when the true problem started, right ?
Sure - moving the start date for WW2 earlier only makes Lucia look worse, so I'm happy to pick any date on or before Sep 1939.
Fatima and the Blue Army that came out of it were a big part of my Catholic upbringing in the 1960's (pre- and post-Vatican II). Haven't watched the video yet, but I can tell you that there are a LOT of things I find extremely problematic about the supposed visions. When little Jacinta says on her deathbed that the sins of the flesh are what send most people to hell, all right, how does a five or six year old living back in 1917 even know what this concept is? I was born in 1956 and I sure had no concept of the sins of the flesh except that it had something to do with the fact that a certain part of your body is very pleasurable to touch which is exactly why you shouldn't touch it or anyone else's. I was brought up totally ignorant of the facts of life and it wasn't until a classmate told me in sixth grade how babies were made (thank God or whatever she got the basics right about what goes where) that I learned the truth. My mother was furious AT ME when she found out I already knew. We never really did have that mother-daughter talk about the birds and the bees; the message I got from her (and indirectly from the other trad Catholic women around me) was that sex outside of marriage was the absolutely worse sin you could commit. Now I agree sex outside of marriage can lead to a lot of problems especially if you don't use common sense, but to say that sexual sins in general are what sends most people to hell? What about embezzlement, what about fraud, what about exploiting the poor and vulnerable, what about employers not paying a just wage or treating their employees decently, what about racism and all that goes along with that, what about buying up rental properties and jacking up rents because you know that you have a captive audience, the list goes on and on. But Our Lady isn't concerned with those things, neither, does it seem, is Her Son. No, they are much more concerned with fashions that will greatly offend God.
Oh, there is so much more I could say on this subject, how Fatima and related devotions taught me to hate my body, to suppress my sexuality to the point where I cannot have sexual relations due to severe vaginismus (but I suppose that's ok, isn't it, because holy chastity is far superior to marriage). How being taught about purity and modesty did not save me from being sexually molested on my first date or even thereafter; how I could not talk about this because everyone understood that these things did not happen to good chaste Catholic girls therefore I must have brought it upon myself--St. Maria Goretti, are you listening? What did you say or do to your attacker to inspire him to do what he did? What were you wearing? What were you even doing around him in the first place? You were canonized for one thing and one thing only--you died a virgin martyr. Had he done the deed and you lived to tell the story you would not be accounted among the saints of heaven; you would have been outcast from your village. Oh, the hypocrisy! Well I shall shut up and watch the video now. And to think I once bought into all this garbage heart and soul!
i almost became Catholic but thought teachings was to hard i was nah
Portugal in 1917 was still like medieval ages, people were super supersticious and the church was fighting the state
Back in Mexico I remember watching a cartoon about Fatima in class in elementary school and I just remember the part about where Mary talks about hell and it shows how bad it is, after moving to the US the diocesan priest who introduced me to the TLM in the first place through sermons on this site a decade ago was obsessed with Fatima to the point he’s apparently gone schismatic since (before that he was “exiled” by the bishop at the time to a parish in the middle of nowhere and his successor brought the FSSP to manage the parish I ended up becoming part of maybe in part to draw people away from him) and still does videos on this apparition.
Although back then I sort of ignored Guadalupe (whom I now refer to as the Aztec goddess Tonantzin) that I grew up with in part because of internalized racism I had at the time so I focused more on Fatima and Lourdes but not to the extend other Trads did, as a matter of fact the apparently excessive devotion they sometimes had to Mary in general made me uncomfortable which is why I wasn’t a big fan of the rosary as well and preferred to do the Jesus Prayer the Orthodox have.
I’ve been listening to the only apologist I still have any respect for (because he’s willing to call out Trads and his videos on Orthodoxy showed me what a huge bullet I dodged when I almost crossed the Bosporus after listening to SSPX rhetoric, to me there’s no point in being that or Sedevacantist if the Church has been in error for that long and it’s more consistent in becoming EO) and in one of his videos he says that it’s not a “mere” private revelation because it’s part of the liturgical calendar but it’s not part of public revelation either so it’s something in between apparently, honestly I don’t pay much attention to this apparition because of all the conspiracy theories there are around it but I know it’s been used to gaslight apostates like me so I appreciate this video.
29:32 ah yes the “appeal to design” or beauty fallacy, I’ve been reading the Qu’ran and Book of Mormon out of curiosity (and also as part of my deconstruction by comparing religions) and they both make this claim but for their perspective gods, it fails the same way Pascal’s Wager does in that it doesn’t take into account the different and contradictory interpretations of the divine so looking at nature at most would turn me into a deist again (but you’re going to need a lot more evidence than that to bring me back to Catholicism specifically).
When it comes to the shroud of Torin personally, I think it's a great piece of Evan physical evidence for the death and resurrection of Christ
Yeah - when I found out the prediction was after the fact - I was like WHAT! I am better at predicting after the fact than this chick
Collectively, there's been more mass sightings of UFO's, but we still don't empirically believe those with certainty either, nor does the Catholic church, I presume. Why is the bar set so low for miracles? And this is one of the best ones they've got!
Why do atheists always have the worst arguments? OFC there’s been mass sightings of UFO’s, but rather than UFO’s being of extraterrestrial origin they’re actually demons masquerading as Aliens.
As one would guess, people didn't pray hard enough to prevent WW11. People can never pray enough in Catholicism.
Don't forget about fasting and penances too!
All of this but unironically. I wonder if Neville Chamberlain, Kaiser Wilhelm II and Woodrow Wilson prayed, fasted and abstained more, the crisis could have been averted.
@@newglof9558 Or Hitler. He was a communicant Catholic.
@@davethebrahman9870utter lie, he was not. He was baptized, that's it. He was closer to a pantheist or pagan. "Positive Christianity" had no bearing to Catholicism or even Christianity.
@@davethebrahman9870people who claim this have one quote taken out of context. That's it.
*copyright!
Spelling is not my strong soot.
@@NontraditionalCatholic lol learned a lot from your research nonetheless, thank you
I learn so much about Catholic culture from watching your videos. I've never heard about most of this stuff. 😂
Wait... are you telling me that you didn't watch the 1952 film "The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima"???
@@NontraditionalCatholic never even heard of it before this video
@@faithbecauseofreason8381 You Protestants are wild lol, what did you do with all that free time that you gained from not watching Catholic films from the 1940s and 50s?
@@NontraditionalCatholic most going door-to-door handing out creepy Chick tracts 😂
@@faithbecauseofreason8381 if there is such a thing as the opposite of watching The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima, that would be it haha
I love that version of the movie
I remember thinking that this movie was boring, probably because I was like 7 the first time I watched it and there were far too few lightsabers or battle scenes in it haha!
Blessed Mary, please accept my apology for this guy insulating you!!
Ignore him!!, we love you blessed Mary!!
In what way have I insulted Our Lady? All things considered, I think I've been pretty delicate in my covering these topics.
For me. Fatima is still the most believable. Very well known atheist converted. Doctors and such. I do believe some of the messaging afterwards is suspicious. And the third secret is very sketchy
It is actually very hard to debunk. This video did a terrible job of that.
im not Catholic but was allways had intrest in this
All roads connect in Fatima that was not secret nazi tech. God is real. Most Christians don't realize Fatima is the name of Mulhamed's favorite daughter and how it became a town in Portugal is a remarkable story.
I've heard on good authority that all roads lead to Rome, not to Fatima.
@@NontraditionalCatholic spiritual roads not the man made one's.
@@vincentlattuca3763 I know haha, I'm just being cheeky
@@NontraditionalCatholic ok sorry . Some people think spiritual roads might connect in the Vatican. I think the Vatican is like the Navy. You can discover that the Navy has done some bad things and some officers and even the Admiral is corrupt. But when the good lord puts a lifeboat in front of you to survive the storm you best get in even if says Navy on the side. Peace
When Protestant thinks He is smart lel
Which Protestant?
@@NontraditionalCatholic aren't you against "worship" of Virgin Mary
@@utherlightbringer3868 I don't really care if anyone worships Mary or nor. I'll repeat my question though, who do you think is Protestant? Me? I'm not Protestant haha
@@NontraditionalCatholic K then i apologize i mixed you with somebody else
@@utherlightbringer3868 all good! I'm an ex-Catholic Agnostic today, definitely not Protestant though
A minha bisavó era de Lisboa e foi a Fátima a 13 de outubro! Viu o milagre e acreditou! Ali as pessoas eram analfabetas e adivinharam que ia acontecer algo com o sol? Outra coisa, quando disser nomes em Português prefira dizer na sua língua Natal, fica mal em espanhol ou italiano 🤷
im a what call a progressive christian liberal Universalist
That's pretty rad!! :)
@@NontraditionalCatholic lol yeah
Universalism is heresy. Also, what is preventing God from saving everyone right here and right now?
So a fellow atheist :)
@@davethebrahman9870 im not a atheist!
It is pretty much a given by many scholars that Sister Lucia embellished and reinterpreted whatever her original experience was. And much later she made a claim that before the apparitions she and the children were receiving communion from the Angel of Peace.
It might be a given for scholars, but it was absolutely not a given for me and my community growing up!
As a portuguese ik its all a hoax
How do u know
It's hard to pull that off in today's era with videocameras and sophisticated tech.
i heard this could been a alien they was talking to
Some people take this view very seriously. I will admit that the similarities between the descriptions of UFO sighting and Marian Apparitions are actually a lot more compelling than you might think just at the face of it.
@@NontraditionalCatholic i agree
‘The Day the Earth Stood Still’, but the sun instead? Cool.
I heard that recently. Someone had an excerpt of a book that talked about the similarities between the Fatima apparitions and alien encounters.
@@Rebecca-oh5yh wow
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@@NontraditionalCatholic C
Fatima lo-fi beats to study to is a vibe.
Gotta love all those intrusive thoughts about death in kids, thanks to stuff like this.
That was one of those things that I didn't even understand was screwed up until much later in life. I thought all 10 year olds dreamed of martyrdom.
@@NontraditionalCatholic explaining to my wife (who grew up Lutheran) the laying of hands, my grandmother giving me a scapular before going to sleep, the praying in tongues etc. was a fun time. You mean not all kids think about death and hell constantly?
It's weird I first learned about the miracle of fatima from an episode of the Dennis Farina era of Unsolved Mysteries
..... are you telling me that you *didn't* watch the 1952 classic "The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima" in 2nd grade? Or did you just watch Unsolved Mysteries before 2nd grade?
@NontraditionalCatholic you'd be shocked that catholic miracles get no play among protestants you think I would have heard it while I was a Christian and not from a secular show mostly about abducted children and ghosts
I'm just joshing around haha, I know I grew up... abnormally, to put it lightly!
@NontraditionalCatholic oh yeah of course just saying it's weird these anecdotes just don't reach the protestants for some reason
@@NontraditionalCatholicif this is really tge level of your discourse you need some time of quiet reflection.
Fatima is too big for you.
‘The Song of Bernadette’ was a far superior pile of crap.
Bless me Dave for I have sinned, I have never seen the Song of Bernadette haha!
@@NontraditionalCatholic Same basic story, Catholic kid playing make-believe.
@@davethebrahman9870 I think the fact that Bernadette lived the life she lived isn't an indication it was some "Catholic kid playing make-believe"
@@newglof9558 I wouldn’t want to say anything mean about poor Mlle. Soubirous, but you could hardly say she had much of a life.
Isn't one of the legends, that 500 people saw the Blessed Virgin Mary make the Sun dance all over the sky?
EDIT: 😳 OMG! It was at least 30,000; up to 100,000 people saw the Sun dance... and even the Communist daily newspaper reported it! Amazing. Puts Paul's claims for the sightings of the risen Jesus to shame.
EDIT 2: So not all of them saw the miracle of the Sun. Only some did, about 300, and not the three children. 😳 Wow.
I don't even think 300 did, I was being generous with that number. That book that I reviewed, "Meet the Witnesses", doesn't say how many witnesses they interviewed, but, by my count, there were at least 2 dozen witnesses who all said they saw something.