The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2021
- When we rely on statistics to help make important decisions, it's helpful to know if those stats are actually true. We’ve all heard that most gunfights take place at three yards. It’s part of the old “three shots, three yards, three seconds” standard. But where does that come from? Is it reliable? Do we have any other sources that are more reliable or more specific? Today, we're taking a critical look at the available data to find out what's myth and what's relevant for the average armed citizen for concealed carry.
Concealed Carry Class by Tom Givens: www.amazon.com/Concealed-Carr...
Real Shootouts of the LAPD: Off-Duty Incidents by Claude Werner: www.payloadz.com/cart/default...
Active Self Protection with John Correia: / @activeselfprotection
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1/13/2015 I worked at a convenience store three armed men came in late one night.And they began shooting and I fired back killed 2 the 3rd one ran away. The distance was Around 10 feet. I didn’t have time to look at my sites. I practiced point shooting at that distance twice a month. Practice saved my life.
I looked you up. If you really are Brad Keeling, I’m glad you made it. You did an outstanding job. Seems odd they went after the other two for murder but I guess they were more responsible for the two men dying than anyone else, other than the two men themselves. Did your gun get taken away forever?
I’ll take things that never happened for 20 Alex.
@@derrickrr5516 When you commit armed robbery any deaths that happen because of the incident are legally your fault. You could be the getaway driver, never enter the store or touch a weapon and be charged for murder if your accomplices kill someone, someone has a heart attack, ect.
Mr. Ron, ( gun store owner, cowboy action. Korean Veteren, One of our founding fathers of or county gun range) said don't put anything on it that will slow it down and just look at the back of the gun.
Glad you made it.
Also, I think you will agree with me that under that type of threat the brain will not let you close one eye, and the pupils dilate due to adrenal stress
making it impossible to focus on something close to your face such as the sights on the gun.
100% in agreement with you that training point shooting is what saved your life.
In what often seems like an increasingly fact-free world, Chris’s rational and evidence-based videos are a breath of fresh air.
Next up - “The true probability of ever being in a gun fight.”
Indeed
I totally agree and I take the boldness to add that the effort required to research and study all that data, and then organize it in a line of thought is not an easy job. Invaluable indeed!
@@ScoobyFermentation Yup, and vs the probability of a ND.
@@ScoobyFermentation Careful, might talk yourself out of spending thousands of dollars of guns and accessories if you think about it..........
Retired LEO here. Very good video. In about 1979-80 I was on the DPS range in Austin, Tx listening to Reeves Jungkind, the DPS instructor. He talked about the "typical" gunfight. I'll always remember that he mentioned a living room, a convenience store or even a lawn as the most likely place to be in a gunfight. Since then, from Jeff Cooper to many others throughout my 20 years it was brought home again and again. Think of the size of a room, anything from 5 to 20 feet. It will happen fast and violently and you may not be "gun in hand" when it starts. That's what most of my training focused on. Yeah, I shot some at 25yds and 15yds. But I wore it out at 10 yds and less. Your data seems to support that. Again, thanks for a very good video. Now the old man will shut up...but remember, I made to be an old man.
Fellow Austinite here, similar in age. What you say makes perfect sense.
Glad you made it to be an old man, sir.
Yes, I was robbed at gunpoint several times, and every time it was within ten feet.
Thank you Mr DeHart, I found your offering to the discussion both informative and interesting👍 In addition Thank you for your service and congrats on your determination to retire to your family 🙏👏🇺🇸💥
Old age...always earned, never given.
Most gunfights happen at conversational distance...because it's conversation that starts most gunfights!
Or robbery, makes sense.
I've thwarted two robberies with my J frame. Furthest person was about 10 ft.
The overwhelming majority of lethal assaults are up close and personal - within a few feet. I know. A couple of teenagers attempted to rob me while I was leaving a liquor store parking lot pay phone at Manchester and Stanford in Los Angeles in 1973. I turned. They were there. One of them barked, "Give it up." I stupidly put my fists up expecting a fistfight. One of them pulled out a gun and shot me in the chest (it sounded like a firecracker). I looked down and saw a red dot in the vicinity of my heart. They ran off. I drove myself to Martin Luther King Hospital and woke up two days later in ICU. They had to cut me open to remove the bullet. I've carried around a 12 inch scar and drainage hole scars ever since. Thankfully I survived and made a complete recovery. Think about it. Most robberies take place at a close distance because your opponent: 1) is trying to get the jump on you, 2) needs to be close enough to issue a verbal order, and 3) close enough for you to hand over your wallet or other valuables. That doesn't happen at a significant distance. That would be an entirely different scenario that would give you an opportunity to take cover and make the threat (an accurate shot from a generally untrained thug) more difficult to execute. For me that means: 1) avoid areas in bad neighborhoods where that is more likely to happen, 2) carry a second, throw-away wallet if someone gets the jump on you, 3) be prepared to draw your weapon and shoot as quickly as possible (probably without using your sights) if absolutely necessary. This is a situation where if you choose to respond to the threat with a gunshot - fractions of a second make all of the difference. A situation where an exchange of gunfire at a distance is much less likely. That would probably only arise if you happened to not be the immediate target such as a parking lot or workplace incident, etc. In that case you would, of course, have to start making quick decisions about who the actual source of danger was and whether or not you were legally and morally justified in using lethal force at a distance. That's an entirely different and much less likely scenario. If the nature of the dispute is not absolutely clear you can't just start blasting people. You need to take cover until you figure it out and if the police show up you need to put your weapon on the ground and have your empty hands in plain sight. The number one rule? The best gun fight to have is the one that you avoid.
Man, you survived. You were blessed.
Having a throw away wallet I a great idea that I have NEVER heard of before! I'm going to start carrying one ! THANK YOU !!!
Being within driving distance of Any Martin Luther King is the 1st sign to be in condition Yellow, and possibly Red. You're known by the hood you're in . . . ☆
@@fjb4932 Yes. I moved from LA to murder city (Detroit, MI) and no one has said boo to me in Detroit for 45 years now. I actually ran into a Nazi cell (singing the Horst Wessel song in German) in the Firestone Sheriffs in LA. Different vibe altogether.
So ONE incident 50 YEARS ago qualifies you to posit what THE MAJORITY of gunfights looks like
Ultimately no matter what handgun you carry for self defense, if you ever actually need it you're going to wish it was an M4 ... And you had a unit of Marines backing you up ... and one of them was on the radio calling in an air strike.
Amen
Hahaha!
Or... Wish to be somewhere else 😆
Me an actual FO yes it’s amazing to have that 30 lb ASIP to call an Apache to wreak havoc
Not sure I want an air strike on my own house! 😂
The thing that you have to take into consideration is that criminals don't typically announce or show their intentions to rob or assault you until they get close, mostly to secure the element of surprise. That would be probably within a few feet of your position.
but also consider being in the home and woken top to a burglar breaking a window - you control the distance
I would agree everyone’s lifestyle differs. And everyone’s area is different. I am in the country a lot distance can be much greater, Also if your in shooting hogs I prefer shooting them at a distance even though, I have shot them very close. When in the city adjust accordingly. It’s pretty simple to train to to 3- 5 yards. And we all should. But can we make good hits out farther. Most of the farther out shots will be to help a friend or family member. Not a shot I want to miss.
Eh you're looking at one crime that is actually relatively rare.
You're more likely to get in a gun fight over an argument
Absolutely! Criminals don't typically advertise their intent, they simple pop up from behind an obstruction. We all have heard the recommendation to be aware of our surroundings, and that's certainly good advice, it may allow us to spot stupid or rookie criminals, but seasoned criminals are far more cunning and will seemingly appear out of nowhere. How does one prepare for a problem that hasn't been detected?
Criminals are fictional. Someone lied about with that fiction?
I can't see a red dot being particularly useful inside of 5 yards. The most important thing would be to have a round in the chamber.
I think the better question is does it hurt? And the answer, based on my experience, is no. At that point, it's personal preference.
@@DWalter.27 an optic, is more weight, more profile to try to conceal, and adding an electronic device to worry about to your firearm.
@Erozpl01 01 and people have had optics glass pop out, the sight falls off, battery runs out. There's always gonna be that one wild story that happened to one person that one time. One guy said there's no added baggage to carrying an optic but there are, weight/ weapon profile/ and worrying about scratching your glass/ optics failing etc. I have both a pistol with and without, but don't fool yourself into saying there's no negatives at all to a red dot
@@areyou0k98 Just get height sights then. If its too bug for you specifically then dont carry it. Nobody cares what you carry nor will they notice.
@@areyou0k98 My concern would be getting it hooked on your shirt. But I've never run a red dot on a pistol, so I'm in no position to actually think that other than in the abstract.
Another fine video from Chris. Thanks!
I am retired from the US Army and also retired from Brinks Inc. On my initial training with Brinks in Washington DC our instructor was a retired captain from the DC police dept. During the classroom phase he quoted FBI statics from that time, roughly 1994. He stated that most compiled data from gunfights throughout the US involving law enforcement took place at 10 feet or less, involved an average of three rounds fired and were over in 3 seconds or less. Later on, roughly 8 years, I attended the Brinks firearms instructor training course in Dallas, Texas. The stated FBI statistics on gunfights had remained almost identical to the 1994 numbers.
Whether your defensive handgun is MOS equipped or not is certainly a personnel choice. However, with the quoted statistics above, having an optic mounted handgun to be used in real world situations would seem, to me at least, to be unnecessary. Clearing your holster cleanly, getting that front sight on target quickly and getting a center mass first round hit with follow-up seems to be the goal here.
I think that 7 yard (21ft,) distance came from FBI analysis of how far a perpetrator can lunge and make contact with a victim with a knife, not necessarily a gun or other hand weapon. This is something taught to LEOs in training, i.e. letting a suspect within 21 feet is too close to defend against if the perp produces a knife and stabs the LE.
solid discussion
2 points... 1 even if we had the average locked in there is still no guarantee that your fight will be average. 2 I'd rather be the guy who trains at 30 yards and gets in a fight at three than the guy who trains at three yards and gets in a fight at thirty.
I try to practice at different ranges, it keeps it fresh.
I agree 100%
Excellent point. John Corriea echoed something similar recently with regard to mass casualty events.
When I started carrying it was with a Ruger .357 LCR (5 shot snubbie). That was great if an ATM issue is the most likely threat. Now I go with a CZ PCR for the longer sight radius and capacity.
Yup, excellent points. Just don't ignore the 3 and in aspect either. Retention, point, and single hand shooting need to be considered as well. If all you do is train 30 yards doing two handed arms extended out front shooting, then you'll be unprepared for the close fight.
Of course it's useful to shoot straight at 30 yards, but it's just a low priority in my book. I would place that priority after shooting straight at 7 yards, getting the quickest draw, retaining your weapon and firing from assorted awkward positions, including weak side. I suspect you're more likely to get shot with your own pistol (that got taken off you) than shot from 30 yard, unless you're a bystander hit by a stray.
But to be fair, the red dot comes into its own at 15 yards (doesn't it?) and that's a more credible scenario, though still less common than closer.
In 2015 i was standing in a gun and pawn shop talking to the owner. When 5 young men from a different state which only 30 mins away from this location. They got into a argument with the owner over a gun purchase and the transfer of it to there state that they didnt want to deal with. the whole time 1 of them stayed at the front door watching outside, there was a large gun safe for sale towards the back of the gun shop. I slowly worked my way behind it. I had a 1911 with 8+1 rounds. The guys eventually left when the owner threatened to call the police. I remember thinking if this goes down im gonna wish i had back up mags with me. If you carry keep this in mind cause there can always be more then 1 bad guy and they also tend to carry high cap mags as well.
This is the best firearms channel on YT. Simple second long uncluttered intro, no bravado or over the top theatrics or jokes, no shilling for Raid Shadow Legends. Just a quick intro then nothing but calm clear dissemination of facts. I wish all channels were like this.
I’ve been in 2 gunfights. My first I had a pistol and the felon had a pistol and a butcher knife. That was about 20 yards. The second I had an AR-15, with a red dot, and the felon had a pistol. That was almost exactly 50 yards. As you said though distances are skewed. For one I was able to go back later and measure mine, myself. I didn’t have to rely on someone else’s estimate. Which is usually what makes it in the record. My lawyer on my 50 yard shooting guessed that it was 15........ And he had been to the scene shortly after it happened and was allowed to walk around inside the crime scene tape. Those were both law enforcement shootings. But I’ve had a lot of friends with similar experiences. Most happen much further away than people realize. The friends of mine who have been very close, and in some cases also been shot, or stabbed, themselves during the fight, have been as you also mentioned in the act of wrestling with someone trying to get handcuffs on them. Not a concern for a citizen. For off duty carry I tend to look at all the shootings I’ve been a part of investigating though. WELL over 100. In 22 years it’s Probably closer to 300. Of those some were citizens shooting felons. But most were felons shooting other felons. Decent citizens don’t really need to worry about what will happen when the drug deal goes bad at 1 yard..... Unfortunately some have also been felons shooting unarmed citizens. In those I think you should expect to be within 5-7 yards. Although in my first iron sight shooting I remember being about 3 rounds in before I realized I was shooting. In the second I just concentrated on keeping the bouncing red dot center mass. So that big blazing red dot in your vision counts for something.
It is not really important but how can someone think 50 yards are only 15 i mean it is a really big difference. 15 yards is nearly nothing in comparison from 50 yards a person begins to look really small. Yeah but the thing is self defence shootings are not happening at 50 yard in 99% of cases when you are not an officer, i mean if someone would shoot at me from 50 yards i would probably shoot back a few times and try to run away. Most of the time a citizen have to defend him self it is because of a robbery or somethink like that an in that case a red dot does not really to much because it is at a so short distance that you are not really need to aim through your sight it is enough to point the gun in the direction. So for law enforcement it is maybe a good think but for "normal" people it is not necessary but it does not hurt to have a red dot neither.
@@kuessebrama In most cases, I would think, a person would have a hard time claiming self defense at 50 yards.
Good information. Glad won the fight.
If they are shooting at you at 50 yards...it is self defense
@@kevingridermissionair8020 Hence the “in most cases.” But that is incredibly rare.
I'll go to what a friend of mine, who is a firearms instructor said. He said, a handgun in a reactive weapon used to save your life. If you expect a gun fight, always carry a rifle.
Like the old saw goes in law enforcement, "The purpose of your handgun is to allow you to fight your way back to your patrol vehicle to retrieve your long gun."
Exactly, which is why a red dot on a pistol is probably one of the worst trends I've seen in the gun industry.
But sadly, cops still rush into gunfights and probable gunfights leaving the long gun in the patrol vehicle. Maybe the long guns are too hard to extract - dunno. But there has to be a solution.
"The FBI has been telling us for decades that the mean average distance of a lethal confrontation is 7 yards"
Pretty sure Paul uses law enforcement statistics which is a little bit of a flawed sample for civilians. I train in increments of 3, 5, 7, and 10 yards for my handguns. If I'm proficient at three yards with a gun, I'm comfortable relying on it as my bedside gun, if I'm good at five I'm comfortable carrying it. Anything more is just me showing off. (And I'm talking three to five round groups not just single shots btw)
The FBI says many things. They should stop speaking
Yes. Within 21 feet.
@@jasonschmidt9569 LMAO... Right.
@@NikkyElso My interpretation when he says that is that he is not suggest that statistic is accurate, but it is what we are told and he'll use it for demonstration purposes. I interpret it that way because of the somewhat mocking tone he has when he says it and his repeated discussions related to his distrust of statistics of that sort.
Chris, I just wanted to thank you. I have been watching you for years, and I really appreciate your work. I have learned a heck of a lot from you, and enjoy your informative and very interesting topics. The LG channel is a invaluable resource for the firearms community. Well done.
Avoid situations likely to result in physical conflict. Don’t aggress. Sleep next to a rifle. Carry a concealed pistol. Practice with both. Kill things and eat them.
Gospel
True king
My wife identifies as an ar15.
@@john091077 I identify as a fully vaccinated person.
@@john091077
Hold her close
Legal knowledge is as important in concealed carry as the gun itself.
In a robbery the perp will be close enough to take your valuables.
But he comes from somewhere... It's all about when the threat can be identified.
Lol. But true.
Not all deadly force situations are robberies. Sometimes they just want your life.
@@M1911jln Absolutely for certain. Meaness and cruelty and prejudice. And in the aftermath of a holdup they want to leave no witnesses and intimidate any they missed. My opinion is based on operating cash businesses in the ghetto, more colleagues killed and wounded there than comrades lost in Viet Nam.
No matter what , always practice SOME point shooting
Exactly.
And just one handed shooting in general, as it happens a lot more often than you’d expect in a time where everyone’s using two handed methods.
Point shooting gets weird interpretations, the truth of it is that you use as much sight as you need to. At 30 yards I’m going to make sure my front sight is absolutely centered, at three feet I can make solid meaningful hits with the gun at the navel if I need to.
@@redaethel4619 Yep I practice point shooting with one & two hands . Both ways can work very well with practice . ALSO with a long gun , kind of like 2 handed point shooting , you can shoot well a good distance like that . The POINT is Speed , shoot like you might with no real time to aim & still get good fast hits .
@Dan Jett 🤔
@@HAYAOLEONE Dan’s drunk.
Since my retirement from DoD, I have been teaching various shooting classes at a local range, including Arizona CCW. When I developed my Arizona CCW class, I used data that had been presented during some of my prior training at Gunsite, Pat Goodale's PFT, ITI Centerra, FLETC, and others. It had always bothered me that I was using data derived from law enforcement shootings, for the very reasons given in this video. Thank you for some thoughtful and well-articulated information that I can incorporate into my CCW classes.
Jack Wilson the Texas church security shooting was at least 30 feet (and a head shot).
A *moving* head shot to boot. I estimated the distance closer to 15 yards. Excellent shot.
@@joebob617 I had a hard time trying to establish distance. Like you said, excellent shot.
True, but it's very much an outlier
And good on him for keeping his composure to make that shot.
You know you’re in for some insightful information when Chris tells you it’s going to be a two part series.
This is awesome. As a person who has tried to gather this info over the years, thanks for compiling all this. It's a lot of effort and it's much appreciated.
The FBI training stats are often misunderstood or misquoted. Their LEO gunfight distance stat focuses on 21 feet (7yds), not because that is the distance of the entire gunfight, but because that is the distance where a very high percentage of officers are fatally wounded (kill zone). Nice job as always ! Thanks !
As a retired LEO, the 21-foot rule was self-defense for knife-edge assault. In other words, an officer can be stabbed before he can draw his weapon and fire. I have been advised that the rule has now been extended.
If the range is short, I use "point shooting" or instinctive fire. If the distance is further, the sights are used. These distances are variable, depending on the skill of each shooter.
Could go John Basilone ww2 style within 10 yards
Exactly.
There's a vintage fbi training film that tells you to just hip fire within 10 yards. I dont know if thats good advice, just putting it here.
@@Fvckyou123 I wonder if it’s like the ww2 training films where they didn’t have time to train with pistols that much so they taught them how to point shoot with your body and it said “there’s a high probability of scoring at least 1 hit in 7 shots like this.”
@@jeffpraterJSF the video is here(czcams.com/video/et5FHMwB3gY/video.html) at 2 min 45 sec. It was the real technique because theres no reason to rush fbi training and they thought hip firing or point shooting was faster thus better.
Chris' messages at the end of these videos are what get me through the day
Me too...
So good.
Dry fire is key regardless of sights used. Trex arms is a great training channel. They had a dude from Japan with no experience with firing real weapons but very experienced with dry fire practice out shooting established vets on the range.
That Japanese guy did really great for a 1st time real gun shooter but he had put in hundreds and hundreds of hours training with airsoft so he had pretty much all the muscle memory movements down he just needed to learn recoil management and how to not flinch during a mini explosion
You can’t dry fire enough and always add in drawing from awkward positions, moving , shooting from cover etc
I don’t care where he’s from, he shouldn’t be out shooting vets on the range, or anywhere for that matter…
@Texican Got a link for that video, please? There's a lot of videos on their page, thanks.
When shooting, it's natural to focus on results on target. But when dry firing, you're only focusing on technique...the fundamentals. I took a class from a guy that emphasized dry firing as the key. When I put it into practice, my jaw fell open when I saw how much better my shooting was the next time I was at the range. One thing he said has always stuck with me, "Shooting is just dry firing with recoil, noise, and results." I'm gonna check out Trex, thanks!
Hey Chris,
Solid information as usual. I'm currently reading Tom Givens' book Concealed Carry Class so I was happy your referenced it. I think the most important key to being prepared for self defense is to get training. The ability to work through different scenarios in a class setting let's you figure out what you need to do in the event you need to deploy your gun. And if sights (RDS or iron) are needed. Thanks for all the great videos.
Great breakdown. I have had two threatening and potentially dangerous encounters in my life. Neither went completely south but both could have. Had engagement occurred, both would have been 5-7 yards. Both situations were in wilderness settings and I could have legally been carrying BUT WASN'T! In my later years (like now) I don't make that mistake.
Another great video by Lucky Gunner. Your clarity on gun issues is refreshing
I recently started using pistol red dots. I shoot a half sized silhouettes at 10-15 yards. With little dry fire practice I was having trouble finding the dot. So I started drawing and using the window like a ghost ring sight. At 10 yards it’s 100% on target, so I have 0 concerns about using a red dot for EDC now.
Walther’s latest videos featuring the new PDP, I got one and it’s AWESOME, gives tips and talks about how it was designed for red dots. It’s not the slide cut but the grip that was the main feature for the dot. The grip is designed for more pressure in your grip from your pinky and ring finger. They showed Colion Noir that if your having a problem finding the dot squeeze a little harder with your pinky finger and it will bring the dot right into frame. I mean damnit if they were not correct. I’ll try to find the video and link it but seriously if anyone is having problems finding the dot like Noir was, try it. It really works.
Here is the video that helped me pick up the dot. Plus I bought a Walther PDP and love it. LOVE IT.
czcams.com/video/kEKKOkE_haY/video.html
@@Rodzilla5332
Thanks for the link got to try it out now.
What helps is to have your irons 1/3 co-witnessed. You'll always find the dot and if you can't, take a quick peek at the irons and you'll know immediately where the dot is out of frame.
@@Rodzilla5332 check out modern samurai project. That guy is sponcered by Walther and it's a premier red dot instructor. I tone of great info on his CZcams
Excellent video. You offer some of the best information on any media.
Thank you.
Wouldn’t officer fatality distances tell us to be more skilled at close distances? Faster draw times, point shooting, lack of hesitation, situational awareness.
What the stats on Officer fatalities is missing is how many of the incidents were ambush attacks, and how many were situations where both parties were shooting.
Not only what @justin blower was saying, but they're wearing a uniform and are full on open carrying. That duty belt.... The badge, and the patches....
@@sammaupin3677 cops are targeted because that are cops, not because they are open carrying. In my 44 years, some of which were in law enforcement, I've never seen or heard of an incident when someone was targeted because of open carry.
@@thatrealba I think the point is making is you can SEE they're armed. You're not going to stand 10ft away and threaten them with a knife like you might a private citizen you don't know is armed.
@@MA-hc6mb maybe so 🤷♂️
Guess what, im more accurate with my rmr, therefore im carrying my firearm with an rmr. Use what works best for you.
I’m more accurate AND faster with a red dot pistol 👍🏽
I agree with you on that. I was hesitant to go with the red dot at first. Now I’m loving it. I’m far more accurate at all distances with the dot. I believe they are the future.
Woah, look at Mr. Bill Gates with his fancy pants rmr... Lol jk
Use what works best for u is good advice.
You can’t cheat or substitute the basic fundamentals of pistol shooting. Build a foundation then branch out from there.
The rule of three's makes a bit of sense, given that you're supposed to be DEFENSIVE. But it's only a "general rule."
A lot of this boils down, sadly, to local laws. I come from the Buckeye State and up until quite recently we were not a stand your ground state. The rule I was taught by my class instructors, both of whom were SWAT for local large departments, was train up to seven yards for defense. Farther than that could be very tricky to justify in a legal context. So we were taught drills all the way from 0-7 yards.
Now they also taught combat handgun, which trained to 25 yards, but 1) I could never afford it and 2) there was a very distinct difference between defensive handgun and combat handgun. Defensive handgun we all had Shields, G43's, my PPK, a Sig238, even a few J-Frames. Combat handgun always had Glock 17's, Sig P229's and 226's, so on and so forth. So it's important, in my mind, to determine your style of carry early on. Are you taking a defensive mentality, or a combat mentality? Pick one and train that way.
It's also why I took up a martial arts class. In close quarters if you're attacker is a lot stronger than you are you're going to have a heck of a time retrieving your handgun. Having some martial arts gives you skills and moves you can use to help disengage from a hand to hand engagement and allow you time to get breathing space and retrieve your weapon.
Bottom line, if you carry, train for what your local laws permit, and if you're of a defensive mentality or a combat mentality. Train as often as you can afford, and back up your handgun with something else; martial arts, a knife, what have you. Always have a plan D, because A-C can go to crap in a hurry.
And always assume if you have 1 threat, you have 2, if you have 2 you have 4, and if you have 4 you have 8. And if you get to 8, then I'm screwed because my PPK only holds 7 rounds.
I agree in Oklahoma 20 feet is where you are allowed to use deadly force if someone poses a threat to you so that’s what I train at I sometimes carry a Glock 19. But I mainly carry a Ruger EC9
Inserting deadly force into a fist fight or grappling fight will get you thrown in jail in most cases. Peter spray is a great disengagement tool in these cases.
@@richardthomas6602 if it works on the first try yes I will use it but if it fails and the individual is still a threat then deadly force is a last resort
@@Platano_macho - So...in Oklahoma, what if someone poses a threat to you beyond 20-feet? Can you not defend yourself? Or do you just automatically go to jail?
@@oldmindyoungbody3068 beyond 20 ft you’re pushing your ground may be charged with something else
Chris. Your a GOAT of rational exploration of a topic. Always thoughtfully constructed and researched presentations on a topic, freely acknowledging limits or where information disparities makes comparisons a challenge. Great job.
Excellent information!
Thank you for researching and compiling the data.
Massive props for keeping the LE vs defensive minded citizen distinction in mind.
Col. Cooper must be giving a wink from wherever he is now.
"Don't stop... believing... hold on to that feeling..." Well played, Chris, well played. #Journey
Chris your videos are always great. Thanks for always getting a ton of facts and then sharing it with us
Great video, , I can appreciate all the research and work getting all the stats. Very informative and great info to consider for self defense preparation.
Excellent breakdown. For citizens it's also worth noting a potential problem may be identified at some distance, but not classified as an imminent threat until quite close.
Are these stats accurate? You be the judge.
Edit: Stats are easy to find. Accurate statistics not so much.
100% some is fiction or no info at all
Is this "Joe?"
I see you are a man of culture.
Ahh a connoisseur
OK, Paul.
Outstanding. One of the best analyses of any complex subject I've heard in a long time.
Thanks for sharing this vital information. Your subjects are some of the best on CZcams.
Thank you Chris 4 compiling all this info. Info that is hard to get.
I would think that the engagement distance for civilians would be more likely closer rather than farther.
This is primarily due to the premise that the likelihood of a defensive shooting is directly proportional to how quickly the threat is identified, and can be determined to be an imminent & deadly.
At the end of the day the majority of attackers are going to be closing distance on you so unless you identify them as an attacker at 100 yards aways they're going to be within close range. Unless gang warfare or some unorthodox shit like that
Outside my own bedroom and bedroom hallway I have no moral obligation to close the range. As a civilian I can run away bravely. "Stop. Leave me alone. Go away..."
By contrast the LEO must close the range and end the engagement.
TRUE. I think most people today believe the BS that they will somehow be given a warning that they are going to be attacked and that the attacker will show them their weapon with enough time for them to identify a deadly weapon, draw their gun from concealment, and shoot BEFORE the attacker can shoot them. Arms reach is about 3 to 4 feet. The average distance of one step is about 3 feet. That's a total of only 7 feet. That's how close a criminal will try to get before they attack. Most criminals will already have a hand on their knife or gun in their pocket BEFORE they attack you. Are you going to draw and be mentally prepared to shoot and kill someone BEFORE you see a weapon? Are you going to draw your gun and be prepared to kill EVERYONE who approaches you with their hand in their pocket? Are you going to outdraw a person who has a gun pointing at you? Criminals are not likely to give you any warning BEFORE they attack you. At best you will see them attacking and ward it off initially with one hand or move out of the line of fire while drawing your gun with the other. A fast, close in fight for your life at a distance of 3 to 12 feet. If they only want to rob you they may pull their weapon when they are 6 to 12 feet away. Then you will have to wait for an opportunity or fool them somehow ( Like telling them," Take my money, just don't shoot.", and draw your gun from your front pocket instead of your wallet.). Reaching for a gun at your 3 o'clock position or hip will be risky but you might pull it off. A shoulder holster would be even riskier in that situation.
@@happyhankjr You mention some topics that are a great mystery to professionals and laymen alike. Where will the attack come from, and at what distance? In my years of gun packing and concerns, from a vehicle it could be 20 yards, from a parking lot, 30 feet to 3 feet? I used to practice at 20 yards, now it's down to 20 ft, and my carry guns are smaller. Pace of the distance across a McDonalds, and it's about 30 ft. I now think about just getting the gun out and fire based on getting the sights on the target, or gap shooting off the end of the pistol barrel at closer ranges. Having experience at shooting longer ranges with pistols, I can figure out the needed sight hold. God help us all if we ever need to draw our weapons. The 'law' would never be on our side, but semi directed grazing fire might save your life; that never seems to be mentioned; every instance won't be a clean draw, or a person having a perfectly squared up target standing still for you to shoot.
Yup, it's kind of hard to rob someone from 20 yards away. Chances are pretty good that they will be much closer before they make a move.
While shooting my Glock 34 that I use for uspsa I started questioning how much I was actually using my sights. Particularly at closer shots under 10 yards I felt like I was looking over the sights and either not using them at all or very little and became concerned it was building bad habits. One day, without noticing my rear sight shifted to the left. Enough to see if you looked but not a huge amount that felt off when lining up for closer shots. All of the sudden I went from pretty decent center of mass hits to just missing b zone targets off to the side. Shot a few rounds before stopping to figure out what was up. Easy fix but on the plus side I realized how much I was actually seeing and using my sights, even up close.
Thank You for doing this ! I can't wait for the next video !!
this has little to do with red dots and everything to do with carrying a round in the chamber.
For a while now, I haven't seen anyone who doesn't carry chambered. I used to know one guy that wouldn't carry chambered due to fear of NDs, but he came around about 2.5 years ago.
Or carry a revolver, since striker AD/ND'S are a lot more common than defensive encounters.
@@yunggolem4687 new gun owners, people who don't research PROPERLY, and gun fudds that live by outdated firearm mechanics and safety training.
I’d also say dry firing is key as well
I’d also say dry firing is key as well
I know red dots are the future and I’m slowly getting accustomed to using one but for me there 2 factors holding me back.
1. Having over a decade of training/practice/competition with irons, they are faster within 15 yards for me. Training issue, i know.
2. With carry, HD, and competition, I use 4-5 different pistols and putting a quality RMR on all of them would be extremely expensive.
You always provide quality information, presented in a professional manner.
Thank you.
I really love the way you deliver information. These videos are all excellent
Definitely appreciate your attempt to come up with real numbers. During my CPL course here in Michigan, we shoot at 3 yards and 7 yards. They also tell us that most encounters happen at 7 yards or less. I think sights are a reference that become more important the further the distance of the object. I definitely don't think that a red dot for carry improves in these two ranges. For more detailed shooting like pest removal or target shooting at short range, they are somewhat helpful.
Excellent commentary! Even before the next video, this teaches us all a valuable lesson...PRACTICE! Practice manipulating your firearm of choice at 3 yards, then at 1 yard, and 6.25 yards, then at 4.38 feet, then up-close & personal, then at 13 feet, then leaning on something, then on the ground, then on your side, then hiding behind, maybe shoot at 15 yards...You get the picture. At the indoor gun range, don't just stand there, you've got 2 feet on either side of you too...move side to side if you're allowed, etc! Can't wait for your next video, Chris!
As usual, great content.
Keep it coming Chris.
Excellent presentation. Very informative and objective ...and therefore useful. Looking forward to the next one.
My college campus had a carjacker with a rifle.
I'm not playing this "all gunfights are within 3 inches with 1 bullet shot" game
Right on. People are making decisions on the angle of, what's the least I can get by with. And that's fine, but I care about bringing the most firepower as reasonably possible
@@CallofWar5 I used to worry about capacity a lot but I mostly carry a single stack 9mm with 7+1rounds in the pistol and an extra 9 round mag. I've been thinking about picking up a Shield Plus for a little more firepower though. I used to carry a 16+1 and an extra mag but it's hard to conceal in the summer.
Mine too, except it was a team of 3 and they kidnapped people and took them to ATMs... If all we cared about was statistical averages, we'd never carry because statistically you're more likely to not need a gun.
Yeah but you can't carry a rifle at all times which would be useful maybe 5 percent of the time. You have to carry for that 95 percent of trouble and know that it will get you out of that 95 percent 100 percent of the time.
That other 5 percent is what you train extra for. I would rather optimize for the most common problems and then deal with the rarities than compromise all around.
Anyone who thinks they are prepared for everything is probably not prepared for anything.
@@boomerisadog3899 Carry the largest capacity that you can get away with for any given environment. For me it's a 19x with weapon light and rmr for most of the year. For summer it's a Glock 49 MOS with TLR7 Sub and Holosun.
While I agree that a vast majority of engagements will be well under 10yds, I’d say it’s also a good idea to prepare for the worst case scenario. You may be the outlier that needs to take a shot at 15+ yards, so train with your setup to make sure you can do it if the need arises.
Fantastic video. Whittling down a ridiculous amount of variables into a reasonable summation. Thank you for the hours you’ve saved us.
Thanks for presenting this real world commentary Chris !
My friends Grandfather was a Marine Raider in WW2.
His lesson to his Grandson--“ If you are shooting a pistol in combat and are using the sights--you are probably shooting too darn slow”
Ed Lovette, in his snub nose revolver book, has some civilian gunfights statistics and they correspond with the rule of 3.
Be aware of your surroundings everywhere and especially gas stations.
In the Atlanta area, it seems there is a shooting at a gas station every week and sometimes more. I find myself more aware when pumping gas than most any other time. Regardless, being situationally aware is your first line of defense. The sooner you identify the potential danger, the more time you have to react and respond.
When I'm at the gas station I take the keys out of the ignition, into my pocket or hooked onto a belt loop, and I lock the doors. Plus I carry.
Good advice....
@@lentzquest They pulled them at my go2 station. Mega annoying distraction!
So well thought out and presented as usual. Thanks!
I watch your videos for the useful information, I appreciate them for the amazing production quality, but the song lyric easter eggs are absolutely gold.
I agree. LE data doesn’t hold up for civilian defense. Completely different dynamics.
Street light poeple Journey nice don't stop believing
Same for bullets. Dpt adopts a service load, shoots a bunch of people and whoa, whaddya know, it works!
That’s not even remotely true. If you are using a firearm in self defense, you’re either getting mugged, carjacked, raped, or in your hallway/bedroom.
@@joncampo1627
Um, yes... unlike LE shootings, where they are *not* being carjacked, mugged, or raped.
"If I was trying to build a winning football team I wouldn't look at the stats for a losing basketball team." A perfect explanation of why LEOKA stats are not a good choice for informing decisions about how to prepare for private citizen self defense.
Love your videos. Your spot on, on so many issues. Thanks.
Excellent, looking forward to the next video.
Thank you.
Thirty yards…I want a carbine…
With the reference of the only time I have had to draw my pistol,(I am 62 and have carried since about’80 or so) last year at a rest area,the meth-head was at our passenger side door in a blink and settled right down at the sight of my pistol heading towards his head. So about 5 feet + -! I practice at 25 yards regularly though.
One of your best vids. Interesting and informative!
Excellent 👍 thanks for sharing this Chris, it's really helpful.
interesting - my experience while limited were at less than 10 feet.
Yep.
Not sure if it counts as my sole defensive use of a firearm was against an aggressive dog, but that too happened within 10 feet.
10ft = 3 yards. Jussayin.
@@codymartin5930 10 ft is 3.3333 yards.
@@AmericanMinuteman95 Well no duh, way to get bogged in the literal to miss the point.
Thank you for answering the question. Yesterday's video had me thinking all day about this question. I carry a Glock 48 with true glow sites. At the range I can hit 25 yards to a few feet. I am 61 years old so I do not see as well as I use to. But I believe I am a fair shot. I do a lot of quick draws at 10 feet with verbal commands. I hit heart lung shot all of the time. I know a red dot would be better at longer distances maybe even at closer. But I carry my pistol in two ways. One in my pocket and the other concealed strong side. The Red dot would work on strong side but not pocket carry. I could get two guns but I have always like the feel of the same. The old saying "beware of the man with one gun for He knows how to use it." So I am still thinking, praying though my choice. Looking forward to the next video.
Very well done. Chris bustin' out the classic rock references is just the cherry on top.
Very interesting. 🤔 Thanks for all your efforts in putting out this great content!
When the adrenaline hits, muscle memory is what you're left with. Beware of the old man with one handgun.
Not that old bullshit again. You might just be saying we should beware the old man who bought a gun 30 years ago, stuck it in a drawer, and hasn't picked it up since...
I am an old man.... 72 years old.... I have a 1991 Taurus #85... it has been my only CCW since then... 30 years, only handgun I carry and practice with regularly. At 21feet I can shoot 50 rounds reloading 5 rounds at a time - nonstop! It has a Crimson Red Dot installed along with a trigger and hammer jobs. I can and still do- place 49 out of 50 shots in the palm of YOUR HAND! I firmly believe that if one can keep all rounds in a tight center mass they should aim for the bridge of the nose instead of the chest. No body armour for the nose.
The 50th round was down and left 1 1/2" of outside fired pattern.
I’m laughing with you at this. When I became a fed we spent an unbelievable amount of time in firearms training. The purpose behind it all? Muscle memory.
Regardless, shoot what you can land consistent hits with, and do your best to avoid analysis paralysis, which is much harder than it used to be. 😔
Tons of clear science and data to understand a complicated and emotional topic, plus a Journey reference at the end?!?
Genius! 😁👍😎
As usual, great info Chris. Thank you.
This is why my conceal carry is a LAW rocket 🚀 as long as I don’t mount a vertical fore grip on it. Perfect for every occasion.
Interesting, I might switch. I've been concealed carrying my mosin nagant 91/30 and it's been a pain in my ass
Dont forget to mention the ladies love you when they see the big rocket in the pants.
MG-42 for me. Accept no substitute
@BrandonB lmao, that’s my secret. Can’t rope em in with the truck I drive
Id argue most civilians are ambushed by criminals vs police being an obvious threat to the criminal for much farther away
Objective of a criminal is usually to steal. They must be near enough to communicate and threaten. Usually they want you to hand them your wallet, keys, phone, etc... which means they're within about 2 yards. And if you've watched videos of armed robberies, it's usually more like 1 yard. Standing close also provides intimidation value, even though it's tactically detrimental.
Absolutely. Dirtbags are much less likely to confront a cop. It's their method of choice against what they believe is a soft target.
@@yunggolem4687 yeah
And your fight doesn't magically end when you shoot at them, but they are likely to open the distance.
@@conorfoster2337 use a better gun?
This video had me taking in every word, what a compelling subject matter. A few months ago I saw a video by Warrior Poet Society on close distance shooting and how shots by trained police missed 80% and the actual hits were low. Ever since then I started practicing what he showed. I also watch James Yeager.
Good and thought worthy info...you never know until you're there.
Great stuff 👍👍
Chris: I used to teach concealed carry classes (really teach -- not just show videos). All of my students' concerns centered on home break-ins, car jacking, robberies and rapes. All those occur at damn near bad breath distance. Maybe you can come up with other examples of when civilians use their guns, but that has to be the vast majority at least in the city and suburbs. Good video.
You expressed what I was thinking during this video. Though basic marksmanship skills are valuable, do you train your students to point shoot at less than 6’?
@D J Robbers and rapists don't work at a distance. They are in your face. Car jackings -- the same: they have to get you out of the car. Home break-ins may open up the distances a bit, but we're still talking top distances are room to room. Cordially, Ron
@@EchoSigma6 I tell my students to hold the gun in a low ready so the sights are visible if you look for them (if the gun is pointed too far downward - you lose the sights). The idea is that when you bring the gun up and out the sights should be available. Even if you're looking at the bad guy, the sights should be down in front of you. I used to shoot 10,000 shots a year out of my handguns -- so I got pretty good at seeing where the sights were pointing even if the gun wasn't really high enough for true sight alignment (your brain kind of triangulates and does the math for you). I guess that equates to point shooting. As a general rule I taught folks to aim when you can, point when you have to -- but practice!!! Another big issue is that bad guys are a lot LOT faster than we imagine. We have to be ready to act quickly, so even when we aim, we'll be lucky to barely "grab" a sight picture (especially on follow-up shots), so focus hard on the bad guy and "see" the sights fuzzy.
@D J I get your point, and largely agree, but some folks don't do anything naturally with a gun. There are some real klutzy people out there that have learn everything with guns and how to shoot them. One issue is their trigger pulls are so bad, they stop trusting their eyes when they see they are missing and just start yanking the trigger.
@D J That's a hoot!!! I was thinking though that after the shooting starts we'll be smelling a lot more than dog farts!!!!
Really well done...looking forward to the follow up video!
Great video! Thanks for the in depth analysis
Am I sensing another episode of "stuff Chris and John want to know"?
I would imagine a large proportion of civilian defensive shooting would occur in a home. If not in a home, at the least indoors. Assuming a typical bedroom or living room isn't more than 20 or so feet across, that would automatically limit the average range of those gunfights.
Assaults outside the home are far more likely, but more people have guns at home than people who carry guns, so you're probably right that most civilian shootings are at home. The majority of the Rangemaster student incidents occurred outside the home, which is probably another reason so few of them have been in the 0-2 yard range.
Thanks for this video. And thanks for the shout outs. I'm already subscribed to Activate Self Protection; I'll have to check out the other guys you mentioned.
Awesome idea for a video! Hyped for part 2!
While I appreciate the research that went into this video and don’t dispute the statistics. In a combat situation of under 10’ any sights are useless. I am a vietnam combat veteran, 1967-69 and survived 6 pistol combat situations of less than 10’. Many more with rifles. Range practice is a necessity, it gets you used to the sound, operation and feel of your particular firearm.
In an adversarial situation, once you decide to shoot someone, it takes about 1/10th of a second for the adrenaline to hit you and you will be lucky to hit a building at 6”.
My recommendation is to sight down the barrel or slide and pull the trigger until they don’t get up. After you toss your lunch, it will take approximately a half hour for you to stop shaking as the adrenaline leaves your system. Good luck.
@@robertwatson818 jungle warfare is in feet.
There is no such thing as 10 yards in a tunnel
Also, just look around next time you’re out in public and imagine scenarios where you would be in danger. Like walking down a sidewalk and you see someone approaching you. Visualize what that confrontation would be like given the environment around you. I would wager that almost all would be in the 3 foot to 10 foot range.
In most situations its someone approaching you. It's hardly ever a parking lot wide standoff like movies depict.
Thanks for this video.
In another one, you mention Tom Given's book. In this one, he mentions that his clients who had to défend their lives had engagements at "car length". Engagements under two yards are rare. So are engagements beyond 7.
He also mentions that incidents with two agressors are frequent.
Great breakdown, looking forward to t,he next vid. I train my students (not LEO) at the 3’ range and the longest shot they’d have in their home. Typically 5yds. Too many people practice “bullseye shooting” at distances they don’t need at times that are too long in lighting conditions that won’t exist.