Tips for installing Flat tappet cams and lifters
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- čas přidán 8. 08. 2020
- Dont wipe that cam out! Theres no such thing as a soft cam
Watch this video to learn how I keep my flat tappet cams from wearing out.
Use assembly lube! Use brand name lifters and make sure those lifters spin freely! Dont use overly heavy valve springs! and proper oil and break in are so important!
You want less than 300lbs of spring pressure over the nose of the cam at max lift for lifter survival.
It's best to use a proper break in oil as newer diesel oils dont have the proper levels of zddp and too much detergent - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Old guy here. Stopped soaking lifters 30 years ago. Enjoyed the video. Thanks.
Haha! Some ole school guys give me flack about that
No need to soak them ifen you prime the oil pump with lifters in before valve adjustment
Makes the job much easier. Prime the after adjustment
Excellent video with good explanations 👌🏻 Now I have no fear anymore to change my OEM cam to a mild cam in my SBF 302! Thank you!
***UPDATE*** Do Not make my mistake. After chasing no oil pressure on a fresh 355. We pulled oil pump Melling HV55 to inspect. Nothing wrong. I told my son to check bottom of pan for maybe we forgot a rag or something. He comes up with Timing gear teeth. Pulled mains /looked good/ pulled t-cover only to find half the teeth missing on lower gear. Culprit was 2 cam galley plugs pushed out of the front of block got caught in middle of dbl roller and granaided sprocket. For the love of god please taps those cam 1/4 pipe plugs. Especially when using a HV pump. Lesson learned. Now i have to put the puzzle together and find all the teeth.
Awee sorry to hear about that man! Yes screw in gallery plugs are a good idea for sure. I have noticed that some guys that run gallery plugs dont peen the hole edge with a chisel after the plug is installed. Thats just asking for issues as your a solely relying on the press fit of the plug...scary stuff!
Hopefully you get the engine sorted out and fixed up quickly without issue! Cheers
In Germany we use Mos2 Lithium grease for pre lubrication of cams
Thanks; great video that covers a few points others miss;
Great educational video. Thanks,
I’ve been building auto and Harley motors since the late 70s. I don’t soak my lifters as I was taught. Assembly lube on the outside, prime the motor. Unless you’re actually pumping the lifters by hand in oil, soaking them isn’t doing anything.
Now, that said, on some motors, especially HD, when adjusting lifters, there are 2 adjustments if you are preloading. wet and dry. Wet is if the lifters have been run and dry if new or they’ve been assembled after cleaning. Still not a lot of difference even then.
But, as said, if soaking them makes you feel good, it certainly isn’t hurting anything. But it certainly is not getting oil in and air out.
Prime that oil system!
100% man!
Yes always prime the system , tell eveyone all the ways to do it, isn't there a way also where you spin the distributor hole cam gear with an engine primer drill gun thing?
I always sand the roughness from the machining of the lifter face off! And yes I soak the lifters, and with a pushrod I pump all of the air out of the lifters right before instalation!
Thank you for this, I'm installing a cam in my third gen t/a - it's making for great reference.
How did it go?
@@Milkmans_Son The installation went fine. Mild Lunati 420/443 112 cam. Engine runs very well, pulls all the way to redline with good idle.
Very nice video!
That's right, I don't need to let my lifters soak in oil. I am a big believer in solid flat tappet cams, I don't run hydraulic lifters!
LOL great video, and I love the intro music. by the way, I'm not that old at 50.
Haha solids are always a good option, thanks for checking out my video!
But solid cams only come in big chop-chop grinds. Us lonely daily driver tappet guys have to face the music.
It has to be the quality of the parts because back in the early 80s we never worried about wiping a cam .. we got the timing wrong on occasion, used high lift cams, had a hard time getting the first start, used heavy springs, high lift... and never wiped out a cam.
Thanks foe the great tips! Will be my first time installing a new cam today in my bronco II
What was the first music in the video?
Tips for making a flat tappet cam live…. Go roller none of this matters if you have an incorrectly manufactured cam/ lifters that is most of the problem nowadays
Agreed! The only downside to a roller cam setup is the price, but it's worth it if the budget allows
One thing to think about is coreshift you can look at the cam tunnel from both sides the less centered the hole the more chance your working with a cam flattner
I use Valvoline VR1 with high zinc from Oreillys for 6 bucks a quart.. same price as the no zinc stuff lol.
There is no "no zinc stuff"....
Wow, Hello my friend.. All the best to your channel and hope you have a wonderful day !!!
And also the grease can clog up the internal oil passages of a lifter, if using hydraulic lifters.
Well, I guess I'm one of the old mad guys 😛 because I always pre-load my lifters by submerging them in oil and using a push rod to pump them up before installing them in the engine. I've done small and big blocks the same way for years with no issues. Easier to set lash accurately like that.
Also, if you have your engine block hot tanked at the shop, ALWAYS have the lifter bores honed afterward. The hot-tanking process can cause the lifter bores to become egg-shaped. Honing is a simple process. Do it yourself or have the shop do it. A good preventative step.
Haha! 😄 it certainly doesnt hurt doing it but not a must do in my opinion
Cheers!
No oil, bottom out the lifter, then back off a half turn.
Well all us old timers did it like that before drill powered pre-oliers became popular. I think the quality of OLD SCHOOL materials gave us a safety margin. Example....Gm's ls-xx engines with AFM DOD valve trains. Good power and economy, but the valve train reliability is questionable. Good on theory, but missed the reliability for production engines by a lot. Too cute by half. I have yet to build a LS engine, but when I do I want NOTHING to do with AFM DOD or VVT, even If I lose power. I'm going with KISS.
@@cuttersperformance that's why you are a piss cutter.
I graduated in 89 from a 2 year general motors training program.. general motors taught us to do the same thing.. soak lifters... use push rod to pump up... i figure they designed the engine they know best..
Flat tappet cam users. BradPenn oil with zinc. Nuff said. Great vid.
My brother has used it for years in his race engines and never had any problems with .mechanical cams .
still have most of a 25 gallon drum off molly lube assembly lube
I just stick them in some oil and mash em down a few times in oil to get the bubbles out
Better take the lifters apart and check for filings inside and gunk
Im a beginner and am learning alot from this vid. Thanks for making it. Question though. I noticed you using a brush of some sort, is there a chance any bristles may come loose and damage the engine? Would it be safer if I opt to not use a brush?
I've never had an issue with that before, but ifnyoyr using an old or cheap brush, then there could be a chance of a bristle coming off. Probably wouldn't cause catastrophic damage, but obviously not something you want
I sent an email the other day not sure if you got it. Looking for the high lift spring kit
what about comments on running weaker springs or 'break in' rockers? comp cams indicates one of these two are necessary during break in. well, they actually say to remove the inner spring, not weaker springs. pain to swap springs after as part of a break-in
Ok heres what I do, and have good luck but don't hold me to it haha
Max seat pressure of 120lbs and 350lbs over the nose for the springs, anything over than that you need to use weaker springs.
I've also never had a issue breaking in with 1.6 rockers, but wouldn't use any higher than that.
Use assembly grease on the cam, lots of lube on the lifters and make sure they spin freely in the bores. Break in oil, and prime the engine before startup and make sure you have oil to each rocker.
Proper break in is key! Get the rpm up right away!
The issues is when the lifter doesn't spin in the lifter bore, the cam will wipe out in no time if it doesn't
Most cams get wiped because of extended cranking trying to start a new engine that has an improperly installed distributor. The break in lube on the cam /lifter interface gets wiped off before the engine starts...then when it finally starts it's dry and cam damage can occur.
True
Wrong - most components are just about mated/worn in by the starter motor alone. Nothing is dry unless you failed to prime it initially. Wiped out lobes are from poor oil choices.
And wrong crowns on Chinese lifters
Back in the early 80s we never worried about any of this, we used cam lube, often got the timing wrong.. never wiped a cam, I think it's the quality of the parts
When finding TDC, the dot on the crank should be at 12 position and the cam sprocket should be at 6 position. Is this the TDC exhaust with piston #1 all the way up? Is there only one TDC position?
If your referring to the dots on the cam and crank sprockets. For #1 TDC on the compression stroke the cam and crank get will be both at 12 o'clock. When we install timing sets, we have the crank gear at 12 o'clock and the cam get at 6 o'clock to make it easier to line up (the engine is actually at TDC on compression stroke on cylinder 5)
Hey Pat, have you seen the new Comp 812D-16 lifters? I just bought them, hopefully they’re good 🤞🏼
I have not yet (as we talked about today) but im not impressed with comp cams these days but hopefully they are good.
You cant use Melling lifters without checking crown, Melling Made in Mexico lifters strongly differ in quality most of them.today even need a refacing on a Sunnen Tappet regrind machine
I have a fee question. I have an l31 vortec that i am installing a flat tappet comp cam with comp cam lifters. I am doing all the recomended head work that you suggest for vortec heads. (Comp cam behive, retainers, offset locks, screws in rocker studs ect) can i use my stock vortec rockers with this setup? I also no i may need to measure pushrod length aswell and get different ones. If i cant use those rockers do you have some you recommend?
Stock Rockers are good for up to .480 lift and under 300lbs open spring pressure.
Yeah you will for sure need longer push rods. should be around 7.800
@@cuttersperformance summit 1103 cam will work well
that is awesome your head work the screw in rocker studs are really number one for sure, if you have ever had them raised up out of your heads you would know what i mean. i have seen the measurements and results.
New Camshaft before install, Micrometer each lobe should have .003 taper per lobe for lifter spin, failures from bad machine work, lifters should have base crown .015, put to base lifters together, should have rocking, prime lifters with oil with squirt oil pump, good lifters will have burnish mark at base from heat treating, zink break in additive and run 2k for 20 minutes to polish.
We checked many cams 2 from 10 had messing tapets
I mostly use NOS stanadyne lifters
Just pulled my stock 350 for a rebuild. Scared to death to use flat tappet again with all the internet chatter about wiped cams. Hate to have all the machine work done, new rods, pistons, springs, do all the rebuild work and install the engine only to wipe a lobe after 2 minutes of break in when it lasted 40 years with tappet just fine. Id cry. LOL. Looked into retro roller route but that's $800+ alone and cam choices all are mostly higher lift in the .500+ range which wont work with my stock 993 heads. Not sure if I should risk it with new tappets/cam, or go buy a later roller block, LS swap.
Thats the scary thing with flat tappets, it can come you a full rebuild
Get a NOS cam and lifters or ask Elgin cams they still work fine
Put the cam in first before the crank, it's easier to guide in from the bottom
Interesting, i dont think ive ever installed a cam before the crank
@@cuttersperformance I have not installed a cam first, but once saw a friend do so. He had the bare block setting on the bellhousing flange, nose in the air. He installed the cam gear finger tight in the three bolts. It was a flat tappet cam, so he coated the lobes with moly lube and gently lowered the cam in place. I ask him why, he replied, "I'm shaking like Don Knotts most of the time. If I installed the cam normally, I'd ding all the cam bearings. It would sound like a pinball machine going in".
Install the cam before putting the block on an engine stand.
Stand the block straight up. Lower cam using gravity. Doing it sideways always scratches a bearing.
Must not be vortex heads with center bolts for intake. Great videos love this channel!
Vortec*
could be bowtie heads, with both mounting options, and truth be told, they're better than VORTEC heads.
Why do people keep saying vortex it's vortec
My tip. Go Roller!
this is the 350 small block
i have a 350 s b c silveraso 1995 can i used the same process
Yeah all just about any flat tappet cam
I run a non detergent high zddp break-in oil by Driven so it doesn't wash the zink addative off the cam, also grove my lifter bores for direct oiling ahead of the lifter to cam lobe contact point. Do you run non detergent oil after break-in?
I run most on Lucas Hotrod oil
Best use aircompressor Sae30 oil plus Zddp Additive for breakin
Bore gage,,check your lifter to bore clearance, I like 1.8 to 2.2
does it matter which way the tiny oil bleed hole in the roller lifter faces?
Doesn't matter
Hey Pisscutter! Would synthetic grease work from permatex? Cause up here in Canada it’s hard to find assembly grease
Joe Gibbs Driven Racing Oil grease 00728 for the cam lobes and lifter faces and use Lucas Oil 10153 assembly lube on the outside of the lifters. Thats your best bet and both are available in Canada, i know because im in Canada 🇨🇦
Just use atf for assembly...nothing better.
Of course during the 80s we used wheel bearing grease
Can you still get the GM Delphi hard bottom lifters ? They have a noticeable separation on the lobe contact end ?
Yes you can
Yes. Summit lists them and they're $162 a set. Damn near half the price of a name brand roller set.
No idea if they will make good on the order though. I used to get hardened Delphi's in Melling boxes but they started sending non-hardened shit tappets instead (same part number)
@@earlbrown just had that issue lately, ordered Melling knowing they were Delphi, saw the lifters were shit even though the pictures still showed Delphi lifters, sent them back. actually found a set at AutoZone that were Delphi.
@@heavydutyroadsidellc920 . So I order a set of small block Chevy hydraulic flat tappet lifters from a motorsports company out of Chicago I was told that they are the Delphi hardened lifters what shows up is a totally different deal shit bottom lifters like a dumb ass I loaded them into the motor any way, they broke in fine I was lucky in that respect but after a few short drives 4 of them collapsed ( I won't say what brand they were ) how am I doing god what a waste
@@carlrapp8625 autozone can still get them with hardened seats
Hi quick question do u have an idea of a mild cam with stock springs and heads. Just above stock or so. Thanks for any answers. Bob
Shouldn't you clean intake side of the head before doing that
I'm gonna be dropping a flat tappet in a vortec block, simply because it's what I can afford. 355 with 369 heads (garbage ik), hyperuetectic summit pistons, factory rods, factory crank, mild cam, c1/c2 Corvette intake, and an edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb. not sure on distributor, or exactly what I'll run for a cam yet. Any advice for a beginner? (I already know not to buy super cheap lifters, I've got a set on hand)
nothing wrong with a flat tappet man but good lifters and proper break in are key to the survival of them.
Proper Oil, break in additive, not too much valve spring pressure, no idling for the first 20 to 30 mins, keep the rpm up and vary it 1500 to 3000.
@@cuttersperformance biggest thing now is getting good lifters. I'll hopefully be set up to break in the engine the way I want. and I'll have good break in oil. my springs are just stock, so they're light enough to break in on. any reason I would have issues?
Planning on running a summit sum-1202 flat tappet cam with L31 heads soon, any advice for lifters such as crower cam savers or any recommendations? Also any advice on a good valvespring?
The classic GM flat tappets with the hardened face are awesome and worth the money. Ive used LS beehives on similar cams. They are nice because they work well from break in because they dont have a ton of spring pressure but also have great valve control at high RPM
Z28 springs should also work fine
I spent many years not paying much attention to cam breakins. Never had a cam go flat. Now I hear nothing but disaster stories. I did learn something yesterday which may help. Castrol has an oil that is new to me - GT Classic, says right on the jug contains zinc and phosphorus, for older cars, hot rods, etc. Any thoughts, users of this oil? Seems like between it and the new coated Comp lifters our old cams may have a new life.
I actually had a cam go flat for the first time on the dyno almost a year ago. Everything was checked, and I believe it was the lifters that caused the problem. Ive only used the GM lifters since then
I pretty much only use brad penn break in or lucas hotord oil and haven't tried the castrol stuff.
@@cuttersperformance here's an interesting story. My bronco motor had a few lifters go bad last few years. Before watching the CZcams nightmares I changed them as needed. Put some assembly lube on, broke in 20 minutes at varying rpms, no problems at all, cheapo auto zone lifters. Building that motor fresh now and will use existing cam and lifters until ring breakin is done, then maybe I'll consider a new cam if I just want to.
@Danny Noble i hear that man, for years I used many sets of the regular cheap comp lifters. Theres only a few lifter manufacturers in the world, so sometimes you end up with a decent set of lifters from a house brand rebox. I have used only gm lifters because I know exactly what they are, but they are twice the price
@@cuttersperformance any experience with the new comp cams lifters with the black coating on the bottom? Sounds interesting.
Now they bead blast the blocks and the lifter bores need to be reamed top and bottom so they spin. Back in the hot tank days it didn't matter
I have been hearing lately from HI-PO engine builders, that LOTS of the hydraulic flat tappet lifters on the market are Chinese made junk, causing LOTS of wiped out cams. Do you have any info on this subject? Thanks.
Thats 100% correct. I avoid building flat tappet engines these days and always suggest going roller if the budget allows, especially with aggressive cams
@@cuttersperformance I am building 300hp 305's and 307's now, but when I step up to 350 CID up, that I plan to lean on hard, I am going to have to bite the bullet and go roller. The reality is just coming a little faster than what I wanted. Thanks
build your own lightweight lifters, it'll be well worth it. , other forged alloy steels or titaniums or hyper super intrinsic alloys. get a lifter lighter in weight does a lot more than you would think for an engine . . . rpm, power, stability, balance, wear, frequency controL, to name a few.
@@mikef-gi2dg yes, i too wanted to build a normal flat tappet hydraulic lifter 355 chevy small block with a simple XE274H10 cam, and now, with oil missing what is needed shatters the normal. they think they are making money by penny pinching, only they are hurting the economy , they do not understand that they are losing money because of it.
@@zAvAvAz Sounds great and even if I had the means to do it, I wouldn't have a clue where to start. Hey wouldn't camshaft makers already have started on this? I am talking about basic street driven, pump gas, sbc and bbc engines lets say 1.1 hp/cid, budget limited.
What grade deisel oil,15w40?
I use Shell or Chevron 15w40, been using it for years, never ever had a problem.
Hi! Why are you putting assembly grease to the sides of a lifter? You need it only to the bottom and you should use oil to the sides as the grease can make the lifter more difficult to turn.
Also noticed you used greased the cam bearings, not just the lobes. Redline says to use it only to the lobes.
Maybe wont do any harm, but just saying. Good video anyway! =)
The lub is not the problem for a new cam going flat. Take a new lifter wipe the bottom off drag your finger nail across it take a pencil and drag it across the lifter you can feel the file as it is filing the lead off of the pencil along with your finger nail. A ground surface is a poor finish. Now take a sheet of red crocus cloth and a old phone book or soft back book `put the sheet down face up. Now take the lifter an rub it in all directions tilting it as you go (a lifter is crowned) until it is smooth like a piece of glass now run your pencil across it it is now longer a file and will not file your cam lobes down, a new lifter is a file. Without doing this what happens is after a cam is run softly for a while, (without polishing the lifter) it finally wears the grind marks off off of the lifer. If you are running real heavy springs a lot of racers will pull the inner spring out to cut the pressure on the cam lobes. When resizing con rods leave the bore 2/10 under sizer wrap crocus cloth around the mandrel then do the pencil and `finger nail test, now you will not have bearing material transfering and killing the oil clearance. Think about this crank shafts are polished after grinding. Me, a long time machinist in large machine shop doing ship repair, paper mill, mining equipment, saw mill, and a GT1 road racer driving a Camaro . This something I have just kept to myself over the years. Have fun, Don
Edelbrock recommended do not soak lifters in oil or pump up the lifters on flat tappet cams... My small block Ford engine. They even give a very slimy very thick lubricant for the cam..
You don’t want to prime the lifters before adjusting your rockers / pushrods. They automatically pump up to adjust for valve lash
Have you done 231 V6 engines g bodys
I owned a 82 Malibu with a 231 v6 in it years back, drove it to trade scool haha but its been while since ive worked on one of those engines
There are some old guys that are mad as HELL right now lol! By the way; Im building that 400HP SBC combo you posted. Its looking real nice so far.
Heck yeah man! Let me know what you think of the vortec combo! You'll love the sound of that cam
@@cuttersperformance im building a 355 10.1 flattops vortec heads 465/224 cam competition products carb to vortec Intake, long tubes glass packs dumped ,HEI/hotcoil AVS650 eddy carb. i am die hard bow tie for life. i ran claim bomber dirt track and sold my car when my son was born, this is the first little performance engine i have built since my son will be 17 may 4, 350th 3.42 in a GMT400 P/U gonna try to have it ready for his prom. wish me luck. hopefully something he can waste a set of tires with. I have notta clue on HP but i am loving the L31 heads. i hope i am not going in the wrong direction flat tappet vs roller lifters but cant have it all. just found the channel deff subscriber 100%
sorry brother didnt mean to steal your thunder and blow up your post.
Sounds like a sweet combo man! Vortec heads works amazing and are easy on the budget
@@cuttersperformance it's extremely rare that a pair of vortec heads comes into the shop not cracked. Theyre so damn thin. The only reason there's a boost in performance is because the cc is smaller. It ups the compression get a good cast non vortec from the scrapper. Have someone do a valve job and cut the gasket surface and match the intake. Buy a 50 harbor freight grinder and some bits. Port the intake. Good to go
So the 15w40 is recommended for oil changes
Typically I use Lucas Hotrod 10W40
Smart fellows will choose 5W30 full synthetic...
I installed a new cam on my Sbc but the motor won’t fire it tries but will not fire
Check your distributor? 180 deg out or ignition timing
If you have been cranking it over alot the cam could already be wiped.
distributor is 180 out
Hi I thought dot to dot would be 180 out and it is #6 that is at TDC?
So there is some confusion on that but yes.
For ease of installation you line it up dot to dot with the #1 cylinder at tdc (and ignore valve events)
But technically the #1 cylinder is actually at the top of the ex stroke and #6 cylinder is at tdc on the compression stroke.
There are old repair manuals that actually show to put the dots at the top on both the crank and the cam gear.
Your putting the engine in the same timing but at this point the valve events are irrelevant and its easier to see the dots at lined up rather than 180 apart.
@@cuttersperformance
Thanks for the reply. I'm going to install my timing chain this weekend and was a little confused from seeing other videos. I have the heads off because I'm putting Edelbrock heads and new comp cam.
I'm building my first engine so I'm a bit nervous about using a flat tappet cam. However I can't really afford a roller cam.
Break in is key! Use the right oil and not too heavy of springs. Another option is 1.3 rocker arms
@@cuttersperformance I was planning on using beehive springs. Would they be too stiff.
@@Dboyquicks10 no ive actually had really good luck with ls6 beehive springs and flat tappets
@@cuttersperformance great. Thanks for your help. I know how busy you must be. You've helped me more than you know.
@@Dboyquicks10 no problem man! Let me know if you have any more questions
Cheers!
98% of flat tappet cams fail due to people not using break in oil. If you bought the break in additive to put in the oil due yourself a favor and just take it back and get the lucas brand sae 30 oil. It saves a big rebuild cost !
my tip would be to convert to a Roller Cam !!!
When you use black moly lube on lobes, get ready to clean that shit out of bottom of oil pan and have black oil for life of engine. I just went through all this. Cam did survive breakin though.
Black oil is great Army uses 4% Mos2 Additive in all Piston engines
Assembly grease cannot save a cheap cam that lacks adequate heat treatment and dimensional tolerances. Pro builders are not accepting aftermarket parts without in-house inspection prior to installation. Just saying.
this. its allll this. you can put all the zddp additive you want, and it will still fail. ask me how i know...bad cam lobe taper, no lifter crown....bye bye cam
You missed one important point before installing the intake. The most important point of all.
Yes you never soak a hydraulic lifter in oil. It’ll not allow you to properly preadjust the valves the right way.
@DropDstar word
Soaking them doesn't pump them up.
Welcome to the hydrologic press channel🤣🤣🤣🤣
Haha is that what the sub titles said?
And for the record the hydraulic press channels are awesome 🤘😎
@@cuttersperformance No, the music is from the channel😂😂😂But great vid😂
Diesel oil? Way too much detergent in diesel oil for flat tappet break-in...
You are correct, the newer diesels oils dont work as well as the older diesel oils for break in. Its always best to use a proper break in oil especially these days
New or old configurations, diesel oil is a poor substitute for a proper gas engine formulation.
Guys at our shop always flick some cigarette ash in before buttoning up the engine. The Old Guys back in the 80’s.
Legends!
Essential !
So why do people fight the cam putting it in by holding it all from one end? Wouldn't it make more sense and be better on the bearing if you leave the crank and pistons out and reach from underneath and guide the cam with one hand on each end?
Diesel oil no longer contains zinc, or at least not a sufficient amount. If you break in your engine with diesel, you're in for a rude awakening. Just buy actual pre-mixed break-in oil.
Why would you even use a flat tappet block? Just start with an O.E roller.
These days your right, the later roller blocks are just a safer option for most
i can get a whole flt tappet cam and lifter kit for less than a roller cam itself. the roller lifters cost more than a flat tappet cam itself.
Soaking lifters is no good. A pumped up lifter holds valves open while cranking the engine causing it not to start instantly. You need instant starts when breaking in a new cam. A dry lifter will pump up when you prime the engine.
Don't buy into the myth/scapegoat about zddp and break in...... it's simply a way to avoid liability..... nothing more nothing less