How Could a Slaveholder Write "All Men Are Created Equal"? | Amanpour and Company
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2020
- Could a slaveholder also be an advocate for equality for all? That is the riddle left behind by one of America’s founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson. Pulitzer Prize-winning historians Annette Gordon-Reed and Jon Meacham have teamed up for a study in contradiction. "In the Hands of the People: Thomas Jefferson on Equality, Faith, Freedom, Compromise and the Art of Citizenship" was edited by Meacham and has an afterword by Gordon-Reed. They talk with our Walter Isaacson about the problem of Jefferson's monuments--and those of so many others--and whether or not they should come down.
Originally aired on June 26, 2020.
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Amanpour and Company features wide-ranging, in-depth conversations with global thought leaders and cultural influencers on the issues and trends impacting the world each day, from politics, business and technology to arts, science and sports. Christiane Amanpour leads the conversation on global and domestic news from London with contributions by prominent journalists Walter Isaacson, Michel Martin, Alicia Menendez and Hari Sreenivasan from the Tisch WNET Studios at Lincoln Center in New York City.
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I think the statues of Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and others would best be put in a simple museum, with an honest explanation of who they really were and why they chose the path they did. Replace them with statues of Harriet Tubman, Fredrick Douglas, and other fighters for real freedom. We are one, and should honor our best, understand the rest.
Without Robert E. Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Lincoln and others there would be no Harriet Tubman, Fredrick Douglas and others.
@@THXx1138 Oh right, the White Savior rides again. Does it even flicker through your mind who might have risen to prominence and produced thoughtful essays and written beautiful law if it weren't that all the indigenous communities that had every right to continue with their lives before we came here and destroyed them? White men didn't make room for Harriet Tubman, she crashed the fucking gate. They had no choice.
There you go again being rational and level-headed. How dare you sir?!
THX 1138 Are you f-ing kidding me??? Without slave owners there wouldn’t be any racial freedom fighters? Were you born inherently stupid and vacuous?
I prefer putting up nameless statues that represent dignified diversity and societal values. The whole idea of hero-worship is a problem. You are creating myths , like greek gods through this culture of heroes.
Oh if only ALL discussion was as civilised, considered and intelligent as this!
Yes, you're very right; wish they could be this frank and to the point.
Agreed!
This is how sane intelligent people have discussions.
WE have a national constitution that gives all American citizens to say what they want to say without stomping on another CITIZEN'S THE SAME RIGHT!
Definitely.
The Constitution needs to be Amended: All Men AND Women are created Equal regardless of the Color of their Skin.
That is written in The Declaration of Independence ,not the Constitution
Gisterp
Just say "All Humans are created equal . . ."
Nancy Gittleman
Thank You for the Correction.
I guess we can't change the DoI, since that was aimed at England, and is History !
I guess we need another Amendment in the Bill of Rights.
@Jo Smotherman yes there is still slaves in america.
@Jo Smotherman and not all created equal. Just because it was said, doesn't means IT Is so. And there is something speical here, slaves we're speical, and still is, which can be delivered if they only new that they are still slaves.
So were do Native Americans Fit into this history lesson Don't They own Large parts of The Country Called America
Where not were
@Maka To thank goodness they started there. That should be taught in schools day one.
Oh those poor native people believing that the land belong to everyone. I guess we thought them the difference of that.
All
YES. Native Americans are the only original Americans, and they are nearly extinguished. EVEN their treaties are ignored. We as a country need to support them. They are long overdue.
These long form interviews are helpful for people to have nuanced conversation.
Really ?
How many people get together and discuss history or present news with moral perspective?
@@dimitrialiberty2779 depends on your friends and your upbringing...if facing difficult issues is a normal thing than you discuss the hard subjects. If you and your friends only talk about t.v. shows and sports, than maybe not so much. Without a doubt , I believe that these discussions need to happen...we as a species need to recognize each other...hello fellow human. We can do better. Positive vibes from New Hampshire and remember to be kind to each other and yourself during this pandemic and social crisis
The disconnect with Jefferson was he thought that black and people of color
Was not human. That was his excuse
For owning slaves.
Annette Skinner you lost me on the people of color bs. There were no people of color in slavery unless you are talking about the children they created with the women they raped.
Tammy Stockley-loughlin it’s too late for that unless you pay up for the troubles that was caused
It is no more mysterious than why an illiterate man would want to become literate, or an addict would want to become clean and sober. Southerners were “addicted to” slavery-- they became dependent upon them. Jefferson was one of those who recognized that this was wrong even as he could not overcome his dependency.
Yes he was carrying a huge financial debt. Even selling his slaves was an option he didn’t take as he needed the labor to try & over come his financial woes. There’s a saying that kinda goes “I cannot afford to be morally superior”
Finally some reason in all this madness. They struggled drastically with the issue of owing slaves. It was well written and talked about subject amongst them.
Jefferson freed all the slaves on his plantation upon his death.
Or he had a huge debt
Slavery was a rich man's indulgence. No one else could afford slaves. no one ever got rich owning
slaves. You had to be rich already. Rebels werent fighting so rich men could own slaves. Bad
conclusions are drawn when you try to apply 21st century values to 17th century conditions.
Fascinating discussion. And the statement that we're really only around 65 years old as a country was very profound, and makes sense.
Very very profound. I never thought of that before. It was an eye opener.
We're all on a difficult journey and I am greatly helped by listening into this. Distinction is everything. I hope and wish to keep focused on the battle ahead.
A study in contradiction is apropos, Christiane. This was a superb interview and panel. I learned a lot in a very short time.
I agree, I was thinking the same thing
"My biggest regret in LIFE was...impregnating Donald TRUMP’s mother" - Ronald McDonald, 2015
ExquisiteCoils I too enjoyed this excellent interview. 🇨🇦👏
This allows one to appreciate how essential it is to appreciate the context in which these visionaries foresaw how the American Experiment might be navigated? The challenge is to if possible to form a sense of life as it was in their times?
AGREE - VERY POSITIVE DISCUSSION.
Nuance? Introspection?? The internet will not abide this...
All kidding aside, great conversation. Thank you.
Is it "nuance" or is it gas lighting? So easy to confuse those.. Nope, now I've thought about it, there's no nuance in whether slave holders should be condemned. Nobody on this panel was decrying the pulling down of Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad few years ago; seems like it was cheers all around. It's funny who's history ends up being rescued and who's doesn't. These people are hearing the rattling of pitchforks is what's happening; just like Jefferson did before them.
@@dreamingrightnow1174 Thank you for your words. These two panelists should be ashamed for even trying to apologise for Jefferson. The fact is, Jefferson did not say one single word addressing slaves!!!! The Constitution said that black people weren't fully human, so saying that all men are created equal means nothing for black people.
You can't push them aside "because that lets the rest of us off the hook". Well said.
What will be their rationale in 100 years for tearing down the Christiane Amanpour statues? 🤔
Well, obviously, she was... 🤔
"Be the best slaveowner you can be"? Need to think about that one.
Jefferson wanted to think of himself as a 'Good Slaveowner'...kind of like being a 'Responsible Junkie'...
That was 200 years ago . Do you folks think only white skinned Americans were the only people ever to have slaves ? People have had slaves throughout history . Every color of people have had slaves , black people , white people , yellow people , red people , everybody at one time or another has had slaves . Let us be realistic . Take down no statues , put more up . The bad ones , put historical information on or near those statues . Otherwise we could be like the Taliban and eventually take down Rome .
@@michaelweber5702 : NO American Slaveholder, or anyone that fought in support of Slaveholders, should be saluted with a statue in their honor on public property.
They belong in a museum, where people that WANT to pay their respects can be free to do so.
White, Black or anyone else.
Disappointing that he didn't free Sally Hemming as part of his will.
I don’t think that. I think he thought slaves were free to be slaves. That was his whole excuse for owning them. Also, it’s still like that. Also, there are drugs which are physically addictive (what you mean by junkie) which people use medicinally. Not you perhaps, but you don’t own those that are able to get some use out of them
People with chronic pain, for example, cannot be responsible junkies? Are you a doctor?
Professor Gordon-Reed is a national treasure and she gives such a nuanced view of historical events and characters.
When he wrote, "All men are equal " he didn't regard slaves were human
or women
No...he refused to endanger his slaves by freeing them until they were prepared to thrive.
They had sex with slaves and some of their children were slaves but they did not regard them as human? Hum. I get tired of that argument.
Just human enough for his sexual escapades? 🤔🤔🤔
adam hirqal- Didn't the original document state that "blacks were worth only 3/5 of a white man"? The document was later changed to "All men are created equal".
Thomas Jefferson didn’t come up with the things written in the constitution, he just read French and English enlightenment writers, found it compelling so included it. They also didn’t see Black people as humans so they were referring to white “men” literally
Totally agree. The key words are almost a straight lift from John Locke's Second Treatise on Government.
I'm not so sure about automatically not seeing non-whites as human. If you read journals from the great explorers of the era they seem to treat other races as different but equal, and are often anxious about how contact with European civilisation might affect them and their culture. To use some well known examples, there is high regard by people like Cook and even Bligh for the natives of the South Pacific.
Perhaps it depends what sort of mission they were on. Pure explorers were one thing (Roddenberry, for example, used James Cook as the model for James Kirk in Star Trek), whereas those who were merely interested in making money will readily adopt quite different attitudes that conveniently don't restrict their trade.
Amen to that.
But keep in mind that if not for Jefferson's words, we wouldn't even be as far as we are...
I thought that some of the ideas of our founders were borrowed from the indigenous people’s on this continent.
The 5 civilized tribes of Native Americans had input, too. As I have read. If so, it was a true travesty give the decimation of their population.
The union won the war but the confederacy won the culture that's why racism is still alive and well in this country
Jack C, could you elaborate on how the confederacy won the culture?
@@bealove6709 The entrenched racism of America isn't a clue?
Bea Love turn the tv on you’ll see
Good point. White Supremacy runs rapid in America. I believe if the true history of this country was told it could end a lot of this ego trip.
The north had a racist culture. Their moral superiority was lip service and righteous indignation.
Only in murica would we be talking about crimes against humanity as moral failings. what a bunch of crap.
Exactly. I wish minorities would get away from this civil rights nonsense and and call it what it is. The US has been very clever to disguise human rights violations as civil rights.
That’s not what they said. They were men of their times. Slavery wasn’t seen as a crime against humanity. The greatest scientists of the time wrote books explaining that “the negro is a separate species with a lower level of intelligence than the white man, but with vigorous training can be taught the rudimentary niceties of the intellectual.” We believe what the experts say, so did they.
@@catofthecastle1681 crimes are crimes regardless of any era or time. Don't excuse it.
A change of heart inevitably leads to a change of behavior.
Ben Franklin owned slaves, then considered the institution of slavery, and thereafter freed his slaves, became an abolitionist, even petitioning Congress to end slavery.
I don't think we ought to expect our leaders to be perfect, but we ought to expect them to consider their faults, correct their mistakes and then move to make a more perfect union.
Yes, Benjamin Franklin was Peter folgers grandson. The Nantucketeers were part of the underground railroad and are listed in eliza starbuck barney genealogical record. Many did have slaves. William worth manumisstion Ishmael around 1716 and gave him 2 acres of land and a right to keep a horse on the commons. Ishmael and mother Betty listed under last name hawes. Quakers had slaves but were against slavery.
@@ginawhiteley9595 True.
We I was in 4th grade, my teacher read the constitution and bill of rights to the class. Before starting she handed out index cards with a description of a resident of the country ( man, woman, whatever race, if property was owned etc). As Ms. Wilson read, she would point out who could vote, whose voice was part of the discussion. And by the end we all had the right to vote and be heard. I think that hearing it from a black woman helped this white lady grow up and see things as they are and that we can do better. Positive vibes from New Hampshire and remember to be kind to each other and yourself during this pandemic and social crisis
The worst part of that lesson is in reality is not everyone who the age to vote are not able to vote with some of the laws passed in some states.
That's a blessing. I grew up as a black female in the south who was taught by white teachers who minimized the atrocity of slavery. One claimed that slavery wasn't the real cause of the Civil War. It was a confusing & uninformative education.
@@serenaserena6875 I'm sorry you had that experience...if we don't face our History honestly we don't learn anything. I don't know why some people don't recognize that.
Sounds like she was a good teacher!!
@@ms.5779 I'm 50 and tell stories about her still. Thanks to the public schools of Norfolk, Va. I went from grade 3 through 9 there and had a bunch of great teachers over the years
Even Jefferson's family said they wanted his statue removed or replaced with someone who fought against slavery and for civil rights
Jeff, baby, wrote “All men are created equal…..yadayadayada.”
Hey! He had slaves! What’s up?
When a kid I witnessed something that might explain.
My dad had a small factory, manufacturing sweaters. He was what's called in the trade, a “ jobber”
He made sweaters with someone else’s label. That’s pretty much standard practice now, only the jobbers are overseas.
Well, 1945, the war was over and here comes union organizers from back east.
There was a meeting of several jobbers ,and the label owner as well, at our house.
Though not the biggest in the trade my dad was well respected and after some hand wringing he was asked for his opinion.
“I’m not afraid of unions because the wages will be the same across the board. What scares me is a sweatshop. A sweatshop would put me out of business.”
Mom served dinner and the tension was gone.
Mr Jeff had sweatshops and had to conform. Slavery was already 200 years established here.
We have no excuse, he did.
So it’s ok to enslave people if it’s done for your bottom line?
Prof. Gordon-Reed was making the point that Jefferson was a product of his times. He was first and foremost dedicated to starting a new Country.
BS. If the human beings he enslaved were included in this statement he would have freed them or at least paid them for their labor.
but he did have sex with a slave who was his dead wife's half sister for several years.
@@fred5399 Jefferson did not even free his own children who were slaves. This great nation founded on hypocracy.
@@cathybaggott2873 he felt they were safer under his care and he did eventually free them.
Yes he loved Sally Hemings and she was black and beautiful.
We're still waiting to be paid 🤔
This was one of the best interviews I have seen. Thank you. I look forward to reading the book (s).
"The Consitution is most certainly not a Christian document." - John Adams
No it is not supposed to be but we all know the difference. Every person I see being sworn in all place their hand on the Bible. That is a violation of the separation of church and state. They should be sworn in by putting their hands a book form of the Constitution.
Maybe it is a Christian document. The word Christian came from Gentile heathen pagans to slur the followers of Yahusha (Jesus). Yahusha (Jesus) was never a Christian and never asked nobody to be a Christian. If you call yourself a Christian, you're a follower of Gentile heathen pagans. Edit: Remember. KKK are Christians. Hitler was a Christian. And all slave owners call themselves Christians.
@Vanguarded_Heart 117 That still leaves the KKK, and American slave owners.
Don't worry about the things that has happened to us l keep telling you that this is for the creator of the universe has all ready set the time there is nothing you can do about it that's the most high God job he set a time for you to come out of the condition of the mistreating us it's best to just be confident that he is coming to set the matters straight it's coming and they will not be able to stop it you can't hurry he has every right to come but he and only he that know the time and hour only the creator of the universe will bring a change he knows who and what is coming to the world that he will punish not only did they enslaved us look at what they done to the natives that's going to be judged too this is not their nation' and they will find out America can not remain here because it's stolen from the natives and that's another sin one of the command ments is thy shall not still not kill no graven images thy shall not covered any thing that is not yours thy shall not graven images of the creator so on and so own every thing that was wrong and not to do they done it all so it's going to take the creator to judge this nation and others to get it right again wait on the creator he is ready to make himself known peace
Thomas Jamison- Putting Americas founding fathers and the word Christian in the same sentence is blasphemy. That's what you can do when you have an uneducated population of citizens, which they had in the 18th century.
Because in his heart of hearts he knew the truth, but bringing himself to do what is right is always man's delima! They saw freedom for themselves from England, but enslaved others!
Excellent. I wish everyone would listen to these people.
One way to make others watch and listen is through sharing the interview.
A good slave owner ??? A modern analogy would be a company owner that makes thinner plastic bags. He feels he has made an improvement because there is less plastic going into the ocean, but plastic is still going into the ocean, the waste problem is not being reversed.
When Jefferson said all Men are created equal, he did not consider Women or African Slaves. Both were regarded as property in Jefferson’s time!!
Yes, but now we have a different definition of ‘men’....
BRAVO I was just going to say this and I don't have to have a college education to grasp that fact. And a lot of what our founding fathers put down to paper was the "ideal" society, something to be aspired to, not them saying it existed then...as in they gave us the right to pursue happiness, not saying they were giving us happiness.
Jefferson killed alot of humans, before the writing of the Decoration of Independent. You guys evaded that issue. Bottom line! Mic'20 ADOS South
The Constitution wrote that Black people were not considered fully human!!!!! So please stop telling me that I should not look at him condescendingly. Hilter wanted to save the German economy. So how do we praise him?
@@nannettecouch1945 ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. Those same founding fathers wrote that black people were not fully human!!!!!! Please learn your history.
It is not “revising” the history that is the issue, it is the teaching and learning of America’s complex history to Americans that is the issue. You are trying to have an historical and moral debate while most are mired in ignorance and simplistic tropes.
Perhaps Betsy can help with this....
You can't be serious, there are 'enlightened' people attacking statues.
Thomas De Quincey if you think “they” are attacking statues, then I suggest you are “seriously” missing the point. Perhaps even wilfully missing the point....and trying to distract from the point...
Thomas De Quincey people aren’t attacking statues, they are attacking what those statues represent.
@CZcams Moderator
Slavery in the US lasted 246 years.
"However, many consider a significant starting point to slavery in America to be 1619, when the privateer The White Lion brought 20 African slaves ashore in the British colony of Jamestown, Virginia."
When Did Slavery End?
On September 22, 1862, Lincoln issued a preliminary emancipation proclamation, and on January 1, 1863, he made it official that “slaves within any State, or designated part of a State…in rebellion,…shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free.”
www.history.com/topics/black-history/slavery#section_2
@CZcams Moderator Lets not play games and pretend you do not know what he is talking about when he says 246 years. The 13 colonies existed before 1776 and that is what is being referred to. As far as bringing up other countries we need to have a discussion of our own history. That is why we are having problems today, because we here in this country never really had an honest discussion about race.
You “nailed” it Annette. Thank you for your voice of reason .
All [white and landowning anglosaxon protestent] men are created equal
WASP LIVES MATTER 😭😭🤬
Thank you.
How about Oprah, Michael Jordan, Chris Rock, Eddy Murphy...?
EXACTLY! Amen. Nothing to debate here. That was the mindset at the time. Simple!
@@Seekthetruth3000 Is there a point in that question that seems to work for you somehow, as long as you make it out of context? If you're suggesting something about trickle down economics or that black people in this country are actually economically disadvantaged, let's crunch some numbers.. No, not the "truth" you seek? I didn't think so.
She is a very educated lady. Great conversation.
I noticed you did not say the same for the OTHER professor, I wonder why? To be expected? Anyway, I’m overthinking things. They both are very educated.
Simple: slaves weren't considered fully human. So, not equal.
In a nut shell. Edit: Nor Native of the land
Yes slaves were not considered human at that time . Read the books of that age . Remember the tribes of Africa at that time and before would fight with neighboring tribes . The loser of the battle were taken as slaves, then sold them to middle men as a commodity. Black Africans sold theyre own kind into slavery.
John Nichols why are you bringing up Africa ?
@@johnnichols51, traitors/traders...
The fact that they were not "considered" human is a failing on the intelligence of these so-called founding fathers. they were literally pieces of shht who had too high an image of themselves. and they should never have been giving any power.
Joh's point about us being only 60 years old as a nation is perfect.
Dear Amanpour & Co., Mr Issacson, Ms Gordon-Reed, and Mr Meacham, Thank you Ms Amanpour and Mr Issacson for one of the most informative videocasts about American history that has filled our screens for many months - if not longer. Mr Meacham’s detailed explanation on why American Civil War heroes who were intent on destroying the American experiment should not be eulogized in public finally gives us the reason why the statues of rebel leaders who sought to bring down the republic must be removed from public places. These bronze statues perpetrating the glory of revered military leaders who wanted to create their own republic have no place in the public square. Thank you Mr Meachum for unveiling to us the reason why nothing that denigrates a nation should be in a public place, and why these kinds of monuments should be taken down. How unfortunate it is that President Trump is not saying these words of wisdom on national television! It would calm down your country. Lastly, perhaps Ms Gordon-Reed can shed some light on the fact that the subject of slavery of black people all those years ago is still fresh meat for the lions of freedom of expression seemingly never wanting to let this admittedly painful subject recover its true place in a long list of events in American and World history. Why is the fact that 3 or 4 or 5 generations ago when somebody’s ancestor was a slave a badge of shame so horrific that it has made one’s existence a living hell in present day 2020? I mean, it was bad news for one’s ancestor, but why let that alter one’s perception of oneself and one’s existence in today’s world to the extent that that person will go out and protest and burn down businesses and cars and openly and sometimes violently, disobey law enforcement officers at the risk of being incarcerated? An American Indian expression which I try to use myself to pull through the life I’ve put together is to take everything that comes at you as a lesson, learn fast, and move on. Why can’t African Americans do the same? Do you see what I mean? I mean, why not say to oneself, “Okay, this happened to my great, great… but I’m not going to let it define who I am.” Slavery has been in existence for so long, and apparently is still going on, but because one of our ancestor’s was in the wrong place at the wrong time, we have to realize there’s nothing more that can be done about it. We can’t use past wrongs to justify willful acts of violence. I know I write too much; it's an opinion. Be well -
16:30 Here's a straight-forward figure: Thomas Paine proposed a Constitution that eliminated slavery. He was ignored then and is largely forgotten today, alas. Also it needs to be remembered that many northern merchants and bankers made their fortunes off the slave trade, not just the southerners. The stain goes deep.
slavery wasnt a profitable enterprise until the cotton gin was invented. no one ever got rich owning
slaves. you had to be rich already.
Loved this! Hopefully your lectures could be in History books as soon as August.🙄👊🏽
Interesting and informative--not overly academic. Food for continuing thought and examination.
I am a huge huge huge Jon Meacham fan. John does and excellent job explaining the past factually and giving his interpretation of its effects, the people behind them...everything.
I grew up in Philadelphia, lived in Southern Indiana after college for 5 years and have since been living in Chicago for 26 years. My sister and her family moved to the Chattanooga area in the mid eighties and I have regularly visited them and I have seen and met the typical people that he grew up with. My nephews graduated from McCaulay, On my drives from Southern Indiana to chat no there I have visited the University of the South and certainly have spent time in Nashville. If there's anyone I would love to sit down and have a conversation with its probably John because I love history and I love the insight of others and don't mind engaging in challenging my own thoughts. And I get a kick out of his attempt at humor which in and of itself is the funny part.
I thought the early concept of being created equal was addressing the concept of royalty.
that was first addressed in the Magna Carta. It established the idea that kings do NOT rule by divine Providence. The Constitution built on that. History moves in baby steps.
I really appreciate Annette Gordon-Reed's perspective. Very well reasoned. :)
I REPECT:
It’s gives me pride in our youth as I, a (87yrsOld) Korean war veteran attempt to share some of our’s well kept secrets, which up to now (social media days) has been safely concealed in memoirs and books, wrote by Black Heroes and She/roes who survived those forgotten wars, which enable us to enjoy the freedom we have today.
Only now they're beginning to surface via; social media, exposing the evils of our past history and bringing together our youth (& children’s of former oppressors) to the realities that, BLACKS (and all minorities) LIVE'S MATTER. “
(The future is up to them to make it justifiable for all
because the BOTTOMLINE is, I’m well aware of of the reality that I’ll be outta in a few and so will my life struggler’s to prove that I was just as good. )
ON BEHALF of the many who’s stories will never be known, or just ignored.
I present the following presentation:
czcams.com/video/7HHHBqYqo84/video.html
Thank you for sharing
I like the mindset of Professor Gordon-Reed. She must be a great teacher.
*So whitey can't figure out the quality of Thomas Jefferson's character? Hmm... it's easy as pie for us non-whities. Each and every one of us has no trouble getting it right. Hmm...*
Bestoink Dooley Wish you understood what you were talking about.
Omg I would tell people that we are young nation, however, we are indeed a younger nation than I had recognized. Loved this interview.. much respect ✊
How does a woman date and marry a man without a job and beats her? How do parents care for children 10 years then kill them? How does a man swear to protect and serve his community and then kill a fellow citizens in cold blood? How does someone accuse someone of something they know that person didn't do? How do you live with a crime 30 years before reporting it? Because humans are fallible, insecure, scared, vindictive, wrong a lot of the time, creatures of comfort and convenience, selfish, and just outright assholes in many cases. Next question.
I always enjoy listening to true historians. People who can assess the times that individuals were born in and understand that we are all imperfect and we must wrestle with our time.
It's so important to frame people's thoughts and actions within the context of the times they lived in.
we are all graded in school on effort conduct, founding father got F's, imperfection regarding the well being of a human, is not an excuse,, nor is time,, then or now,, greed takes over , ultra right Christians pray to Jesus hold the bible yet advocate war, just like 1776,, Neo Zionist pray to God the Father yet deliberately and boldly put Palestinians,, in open air prison,, wake up world,, to the KINGS & QUEENS
Thomas Jefferson was the ambassador to France during the Build-up towards the French Revolution. The French wanted everything at once; they were not going to 'phase-in-phase-out'. Because of this, France has known a succession of dictatorships, oligarchies and restored kingdoms throughout the entire of the 19th century. Jefferson was a farmer, not a soldier and not a city bourgeois: he planted an ideal into the fertile ground of a republican constitution and readied the nation for harvest time. Then he died.
I think this is a much needed conversation...messaging matters...also I like the idea of taking this issue from the beginning when it all started...if some ppl understands these are political ppl...these ppl had actions during their lifetime and match that with todays morals...I am sure the statues can be placed in a nice museum in states so families can visit and learn at their own choosing...🤔
Or we could raffle some of them off for their fans to take home and place in their own front yards since there seems to be an over abundance of them available all across the south. Money could be used to help people that are in need of food and rent assistance, just saying
I love this channel. Thanks for this discourse.
What a great discussion! This is the America, this topic moving forward, we should continue to strive for greatness. All faults aside, it is when we come together as a nation. As fellow citizens of a nation, there should be no divide. I really feel that people who feel the need to be in control of other people have a mental disability. And it is that disability that creates chaos and division. And no one in a role of leadership should have that disability. Because it dangerous for all of those people to follow such a person. Wanting power and control are not honorable traits. Why do we allow them to be leaders? And why in the hell would anyone honor and idolize them? Words... words can hurt, unite, comfort, and divide. I think we give too much trust in words when it comes to leaders. We should view their actions and hear their words before we allow our emotions to guide us to follow. Does that make any sense?
I like to think that up to his last breath, Jefferson was thinking of "freedom for the slaves", he just did not have much of the "gut" because he also must "live with the dictates of the time".
Let us appreciate his efforts, minus the veneration.
J4plus: what you have written is plain idiocy. Should we appreciate the efforts of Hilter making sure that every German man had a job, and doing things for the youth, and promoting culture.
why no discussion here or ANYWHERE of the real original u.s. sin: genocide of the indigenous peoples who had already been living in the area some 13,500 years? ~ lil bro
John Meachum alluded to it when he said that those who criticize the slave owners should not do so with condescension because they should remember that they are living on the land that the slave owners and founders got through savage means - I’m paraphrasing here. Yeah you’re right that they should have been more explicit about America’s genocide against the indigenous peoples, but the focus of the discussion was slavery.
Good point.
Am Indians are not a voting bloc. they are not a separate demographic in the electorate. They arent
pandered to because there are fewer votes to harvest there. the faux outrage over something that
happened 150 years ago is all pretend. now its about votes, power and money... like always.
"all me are created equal" embraced: educated, white men only. it excluded: women, native & african americans, and others both in law and social practice.
For many years the slave owners were thought since birth that slavery is normal, still they recognized that deep inside we are all a single human race and need to change and in their own ways did so, everyone should consider that they are not all evil but part of history that needs to be learned.
My 7th great-grandfather was on the team of five to write the Declaration of Independence. He called slavery horrible. He was not a slave owner and did not want Washington to be President, maybe because Washington owned 350 slaves. Also, Thomas Jefferson wanted to outlaw slavery when writing the Constitution, but they had to capitulate to the Southern states in order to form a new country. My ancestor was the only "Founding Father" to sign all four founding documents: the Articles of Confederation, The Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution.
Great comment. My 7th ggrandfather was a US Congressman from Virginia who knew Jefferson (actually loaned him money!) Through him, I discovered Jefferson. Your point is well taken, that Jefferson's Constitutional vision was far more enlightened than what was ratified.
By current popular "reasoning" we must destroy virtually every monument, statue and memorial to anyone or anything previous to about 1970.
The hypocrisy of the “founding fathers “
Excellent presentation. Thomas Jefferson was pointed in the correct direction and like most of us he had a lot of baggage. I like Annette Gordon-Reed and Jon Meacham they should run for political office.
Liked how Prof Gordon-Reed questioned use of Johnson in this discussion -helped keep the conversation real.
It depends on who Jefferson thought of as "Men" much like in the Arthurian legends in Camelot where there was a round table so all were equal but they were all knights & male.
The founding fathers invented virtue signaling
The phrase was created and suggested by Benjamin Franklin. The idea of slavery was not addressed in the constitution because the southern states would have never voted to implement it.
Insightful way of looking at this. I am aware of my ideals and where I am not failing.
Time for reparations. I don’t want here about affordability, inflation etc.. Pay until we achieve equality...
I've never had any slaves in my life. Why should I pay Oprah, Michael Jordan, Eddy Murphy, Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, Bill Cosby, Magic Johnson...?
At least pay for equally good schools for all. That's the reparations minimum. Education is the first step to equality.
sorry... but 300 years of atrocity cant be redressed by writing a check. wish it were that simple.
@@danielkokal8819
Willing to try it!?
I realize that this is totally irrelevant, but: I LOVE her makeup 😊
Excellent discussion...and so rare today. Pass this video on to your friends.
Why can't we all be this incredibly rational and intelligent as these 2 people!
When the slaveowners wrote the Constitution, they never intended the phrase, "All men are created equal", to apply to slaves! This is where our inequality started and continues today!
Yes, slaves were considered animals. And native Americans were considered savages. Neither were considered human, so didn't factor into being created equally.
Correct , neither did it have women , nor any none whites in general in mind. To go even further it was primarily concerned with white males who owned land. When viewing these events it helps to look at the individuals world view and motivation. Thanks commenting and reading. Keep learning may it benefits us and others.
"We're only a 60 year old country."
Thank you. A wonderfully refreshing, intellectual discussion without any of the "bumper sticker" politics or animosity.
Amazing, intelligent conversation. Made me stop and think.
They were not considered human beings, many people considered them a lower species.
Thanks for posting this- I don’t always get to see this PBS program. A great discussion with some lessons learned.
But we certainly know better now, right?
Once again, thank you Christiane & PBS.
Wow. Really strong and nuanced discussion about what is not complicated about this and what is.
Very, very, enlightening conversation and discussion; very intelligent. Thumbs up to the two historians.
Statues should accompanied by honest historical educational panels around them
Pains my heart to see an educated black woman making excuses for a slave owner
She's trying ti fit in
Very good interview. There was a professor out of CU Boulder, sorry, forget his name, that talked about the changing world views of generations. When people grow up in a certain time, their worldview is subject to and moulded by the time in which they grew. They can have the best of intentions for their timeframe, but their behavior and actions (such as Jefferson owning slaves?) can be very discordant and difficult to understand relative to that of the viewer in a different time (like today). The perspectives of different times can be very different. Forgive me if I'm saying this awkwardly. Wish I could remember the guy's name... really good interview, thanks for sharing.
Excellent panel. Jon Meacham is as great as he always is, and Professor Gordon-Reed's comments about Thomas Jefferson (7:00 to 9:00, more or less) are especially illuminating and brilliant. Terrific discussion.
Name the original people of the land you live on. me.. Caddo, Quapaw and Osage.
@Gary Johnson,
Caddo Parrish? Louisiana?
most of these statues were not placed around the time of the civil war. there's even one in Alabama put up as recent as 1970. no one is going to convince me that this belongs there. these are very clear lines being drawn trying to keep black people in "their place". the statues are being ripped down and destroyed because of what they represent and no one should have to look at that every day. these are things that should be moved to a museum or other such place where it would be appropriate. that's it! we need to get off this conversation about the stupid statues. I am a white woman and I still don't want to see that. world definitely do not need to see. getting rid of them also symbolizes it is the end of any more involvement with the Confederacy. I still can't believe these people are allowed to continue living here, much less put up a statue. I'm so tired of this crap and the reason is, I'm being told that my opinion doesn't matter. I am not a true American and I need to go somewhere else. the Confederates and most of their ancestors the ones who haven't finally seen the light, that type of world and they will continue to do so to lie and manipulate until they are stopped. if you don't get rid of the statues and forbid any more of this behavior, we are not addressing the real issues and not fixing the problems. these people will continue to spread their hate doctrine and continue trying to make this country anything but what it was intended. the Confederates we're traitors, and they need to be treated as such.
The question was how can a slave owner write all men are created equal?
Simple, in those days and before (all the way back to biblical times) slaves and wives were considered property. In the late 1800's through early 1900's women were not allowed to own anything. They were passed from their father's house to their husband's house. If the marriage failed, they were sent back to dad.
The only case where women could own something was if gifted by the dad or husband or in some cases, if the woman was a widow. She was expected to remarry after an expected amount of time spent for mourning the death. Once she remarried, her belongings became her new husband's belongings.
Women's suffrage changed all of that.
There was always an exception to the rule.
It's been so long ago that I read about the history of anything. This is all I can remember from the original history books that I've read on the subjects.
What an excellent conversation.
They respected each other and not this talking over each other like we see on many news programs. That was why I stopped watching the Sunday news programs years ago.
WASP LIVES MATTER was the founding fathers Battle Cry🤬
We need to look forward NOT back, why waste energy with fault finding. Direct all your energy to fixing the problem!
You talk about our nation being only 55-60 years old. Only then did interracial couples begin to show themselves in public, acknowledge their relationships, marry. Then began the long, slow process of quietly integrating neighborhoods, section by section. That meant enduring whatever obstacles the local establishment could manage to put in the way. It might mean that every window needed to be covered so neighbors could not say that they had seen in the windows. It might mean being hauled into court when your husband is dying because your grass is 7 inches tall. I was involved in "breaking" one square mile. I was involved in voting in a new black female mayor who has become a member of the House of Representatives. Sometimes, these small monogamous relationships change the fabric of our society in a fundamental way. Some of us work within our time to do what we can quietly. Thomas Jefferson may have been one of those people. Character assassination is an easy and cheap attack.
" all men created equal " only applied to the founders class. you know that conspiracy that got lucky with the help of france and started what became this mess today.
"If you're looking for simplicity, if you're looking for straightforward figures", then why in hell aren't we running Bernie Sanders for President? #BernieSanders2020
I like Bernie also...but get over it. He lost. Now it’s time to get the idiot, clown president out of office.
The best people can't run for the presidency because they are only average candidates, who could never be popular enough to win the election. Sanders, or Warren would never stoop to do the immoral, ugly things they would need to do to win. The smarter
and wiser candidates would appeal to a minority of folks
who would not be able to tilt the election in their favor. The majority of the people and voters
would be swayed by their "gut feelings" and will vote for the demagogues who best appeal
to their negative emotions and prejudices. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren don't throw red meat to the "deplorables" ever, so they would have problems winning
a general presidential election. Biden has much wider appeal
to voters than either Bernie or
Elizabeth, and could pull in more former Trump supporters than both of them together. Biden won't give them much read meat to eat, but he can speak to voters at the Trump level with more cred than either Bernie or Warren.
It's true that Bernie and Warren are "better" than Joe Biden. But to win the presidency, you have to have appeal to the lower classes, the middle classes, as well as the elites. Biden could take more red states than Bernie, I think. Biden is leading Trump in Florida, Arizona, and might even take Texas, which is a toss-up. That shows me Biden
has clout, both intellectual and emotional appeal as a presidential candidate. Bernie has more intellectual appeal than emotional appeal, and I fear would lose all three of these states. Republican ads would brand Sanders as a big government, high taxes socialist,
trying to take away their right to own firearms, and these voters
would all vote for Trump. If Biden
takes just a few red states, Trump is gone forever. Wouldn't that result be worth it to save what's left of your damaged, dying, and divided country?
@@andrewbell2712 Sad but true!
Bernie is in the best position to influence outcomes he has ever been in. He has Biden's ear and clearly will be a part of the administration in some form.
All the Bernie flakes that stayed home and let Trump take over need to grow a set and make their voices heard. The more supporters he has removing that travesty, the more of his team will get positions.
Factions exist, work with them.
Be aware though, the moderate faction will be enlarged by moderate Republicans piling on board.
Managing such a broad coalition will require a lot of skill and forbearance from everyone.
@@MyCvid No, I think you're getting Trump. I don't want that, for sure, but just listen to you --- how are planning to convince millions of me to go out and choose the turd over the devil? How about trying out some of that charm on me? I'm listening...
Great debate. Thank you for this enlightenment
Wonderful food for thought!
This was a great piece
Great Conversation really enjoyed it! There is Hope!
'It's nothing personal against you. But you cannot talk about freedom for all, yet hold me in ⛓️ chains ⛓️.'
- James Baldwin
We all have ideas and ideals that are loftier than our behavior. I try to do my best, but it's never as good as it could have been.
Loved it! Thank you
Mind-wrenching program!
Ironic that this documentry is so out of date on historical details. Recent evidence from recovered family papers show that Richard Henry Lee wrote 80 % of the the Declaration of Independence not Thomas Jefferson. I refer to the most recent biography of Richard Henry Lee. He wrote the words " We hold these beliefs to be self evident". R.H. Lee had been working on it for three years before Jefferson began to "write it". Several copies which were dated show his work , predated Jefferson's by several years.The founding fathers would not accept Richard Henry Less version because it contained an emancipation of slaves provision. They felt they could not get the southern states on board with emancipation language in the declaration. Family history (I am his direct descendant) tells that Richard Henry Lee knew they were correct in their judgement He threw his copy at Thomas Jefferson and stated "You write it you are a better writer anyway". It is believed he was referring to Jefferson's excellent penmanship not his facility for language.. Hideous handwriting persists in our family to this day. Richard Henry Lee was angry his entire life that Thomas Jefferson claimed all the credit and it was a point of friction between them.Thomas Jefferson insisted his entire life that he had written the entire document 100% . Thomas Jefferson was a man of great moral strengths and great moral faults. I would like to see Christine Anampour do a documentary on the REAL author of the Declaration of Independence. . I believe the Smithsonian has the recently discovered early copies of the Declaration of Independence by Richard Henry Lee. I refer you to the author of R.H. Lee's recent up dated biography "The FIrst Founding Father:Richard Henry Lee and the Call to Independence" by Harlow Gile Unger. Let the truth be known in all our history !
He should have lead by example by giving up his slaves.
We all have moral failings. All of us. These two intellects bring up very insightful things about history and historic figures. Apply the lesson of these fallible people from history to better ourselves as a more tolerant society today. 🇺🇸