If it's not an imperium weapon I have no idea what the gun should look like. "My unit is firing it's Nexus Annihilation Rupture Blaster" Alright man, what's the strength?
Honestly, THIS!! I've seen many talk about how the mixing of wargear options could confuse people, but even if it was WYSIWYG, I'd still be entirely reliant on my opponent if they brought an Eldar army.....because why would I ever take the time to learn the rules for the Knife Ears XD.
As a new player, same. Just the idea that proxying can be confusing strikes me as some extreme long-term player problem, since I'm seeing half your army for the first time today anyway.
@@TheProteanGeek I get this. It's why I do think it's important to have ways to easily identify what is what through other means if you decide to proxy. I would say a good way is color coding bases (red rim= Flamer, Yellow= Melta, this kind of thing), and have this written down with your list.
How do you pronounce Wysiwyg in Welsh? I mean I look at it and assume it's pronounced wiz-E-wig, but how it's pronounced and how it looks like it's pronounced are two separate things. Wysiwyg might be Welsh, but Welsh isn't wysiwyg.
It’s one of those things where being too similar can actually be the problem. A drop pod model with a storm bolter that you want to play with Deathwind launcher can be harder to remember than a Beer can as a drop pod.
@@hunterdomingue5600 feels like I should stroke my beard, puff my pipe, and grumble about younglings and their fancy primaris. Never know the struggles of gluing plastic onto metal. When those beer bombs streaked in, aye, it was a glorious day. Or night. Hard to remember
@@LordGrantius gather children, and let me tell you the tale of when we had to clip bolter handles and you're sisters army would weigh as much as a small child.
My favorite game ive ever played involved my friend realizing he forgot his rhino, walking and grabbing a house roughly the size of a rhino from unused fantasy table, taking the roof off and dumping his marines in, then playing the whole match with it. Was really funny to see this little cottage motoring around the board.
I'm very much in this camp, except I tend to prefer bigger models that look more imposing. Example: if I have a Cerastus Lancer who has the centaur conversion with a more stylish lance and shield, he's going on a terrained up base so he looks like he's on some cliff overlook and in a "about to charge" pose. Is the model VASTLY taller than the "standard?" Absolutely. Do I care if you can see him through cover when the base version wouldn't? Not at all. Style>Substance The other was in my old Space Wolves army. I didn't have enough Missile Launchers, so instead I modeled one dude holding the missile and looked like he was going to throw it like a football. He was "Brother Yeetus"
I'm not rebasing my Guard heavy weapons when I have done a lot of work to make them awesome. They were sold with those bases so they are legal as far as I am concerned. This is on GW for randomly shrinking a base after 20 years.
@@kacpermatysiak9743100% - models making a tiny change from 25mm to 28.5mm bases like gaunts recently isn’t a reason to rebase dozens of gaunts. Just have them a couple mm away from each other instead of base to base when in a swarm
Generally being the key word, as you can tell me in an imperator Titan cosplay stood on the table apart from other models, but that doesn’t make it tournament legal
Proxying easy. The only people who have made a big deal with WYSIWYG is the people you don't wanna play with. I've gone to official warhammer events with fun proxys I've made and got nothing but appreciation.
I agree to proving is okay so long as it consistant. Example I have crisis suits with plasma being used for missles . Having some with plasma and some with missles is not okay but saying there all Missles is fine
Most of the time your opponent won't notice. My buddy was shooting with a missile launcher on his rhino, and it wasn't until after the game that I saw that there physically was no missile launcher.
@@MrGBH Yeah it makes me sad for my assault int. sergeant who only has a chainsword from 9th, same with one of my normal intercessors sergeants who has no melee weapon, tho I'm thinking of adding a sword to his waist.
I was in a similiar situation recently in a casual game. My old Land Raider from ~20yrs ago has x1 Twinlinked Heavy Bolter, x2 Twinlinked Lascannons and a hunter killer missile launcher on it. The free wargear allows all of that plus a storm bolter and multi melta. I asked my opponent before the game if I could also run the imaginary storm bolter and multi melta and he said no, WYSIWYG. :(
I played in a tournament one time it was a casual one but the organizers let a young kid play he had orks he had all the infantry and the bikes, but his killer cans were made out of pop cans and pipe cleaners and he brought toy tanks as his armour representatives
Look, my Ultramarines may be green, and numerous, and love collecting teef, but they enjoy a good scrap for the glory of _Da Emprah_ all the same! They get played exactly like their fancy counterparts, they're the same size, and have the same bases. It's just that their Rhino looks like it was built in a shanty town. Or perhaps, out of one. But that doesn't affect how the rules apply to them!
Proxy, and it shouldn't even be a question, in my opinion. The game is all about creativity. From basing to painting and even in the game itself, when you play crusade, for example. But building shouldn't be? Damn even in the White Dwarf magazine, a official GW magazine, they show, explain and encourage you to do it yourself.
The hobby is for sure. The game however, is a game. You need to have clear delineations of what units are, and have. Wysiwyg is the simplest way to sidestep the cheating that can occur when people have to trust Noone is going to try to get an advantage by lying about which unit has which weapon.
When I first got into warhammer I never heard of wysiwyg. I had already assembled and primed 500 points of marines. It was kinda discouraging that I was making decisions I wasn't even aware I was making!
I have to ask, what did you think you were doing when you were assembling the models if not making decisions on what weapons and gear they'd be using in the game? The instruction booklets I've seen so far are pretty clear that there's choices to be made at various points, and they tend to have the stats on each choice (even if those stats are pretty outdated). When I got my first kit I made sure to read the instructions and assemble things properly so that I'd have everything I needed, though it was a Kill Team box so maybe it's more expected to use WYSIWYG with skirmish games?
@daaaah_whoosh I thought it was entirely stylistic. I mean, all the different pieces for standard intercessors look very similar to me. One has a bigger scope, one has like bigger magazines? Idk. I assumed that if you bought the models, you create a valid list. Done. Person has a question, present the list. Those are intercessors, what they are holding shouldn't matter imo.
Warhammer has a lot of discouraging points for new players... Even the Warhammer store employees, whose sole job is to make people buy combat patrols, sometimes struggle not to give off quite an elitist attitude that makes me think I shouldn't bother playing because I'll lose points for being a mediocre painter, or invoke the wrath of a WYSIWYG player for going with a cool component on a leader, or get told I'm modelling for advantage because I posed a model a different way.
I recall when someone asked about using Chaos Sorcerer as a proxy for Master of Possession, and one reply said buddy I'll allow you to put a shoe on the board and call it Baneblade. 🤣
GW themselves kinda killed WYSIWYG for Drukhari when they released the Hand of the Archon Killteam and then said "Just pretend those special weapons are default Kabalite splinter rifles"
I'd say i prefer wysiwyg, but since GW decided not to put all wargear options for some units in their box, i say i don't really have a choice but to "proxy" it. Also since there are 20+ factions in the game and most of the players in our club has no idea what are the differences between some tau/eldar/votann weaponry it's kind of whatever if you have the "correct" gear on or not. My solution is having the datacards at hand, and having indicated on it what unit has what equipment.
I've taken to writing out the datacards prior to battles, and only including the weapons options in the list. I can also put attached characters and their bonuses on the homemade card too. No more forgetting everyone has lethal hits or whatever.
So Im old and have been to about 30 tournaments. I even went to a few games days and gw tournaments. I have never seen any 3D printed armies but I have seen a LOT of GW kitbashing and proxies. The onlt time in the last 27 years I have seen a judge get involved was over a Demon Prince being to small so the player brought a second DP for any line of sight questions. The judge over heard and just let the guy know if a player had a problem with this he could lose points or be forced to use his other DP during that game.......THATS IT. Enjoy doing your own thing.
Depending on your tournament rules, usually (to my knowledge) you have to use official models? Kitbashing GW stuff together is fine but 3d printed proxies are not. Not everywhere but official matches in general run like this afaik
@@OctoBooze i got in shit for this with one of the units mentioned in the video. i had intercessors with detachable parts on the rifles and like any sensible human, i didn't buy 2? other sets to just have those bits but rather 3d printed them. an organiser asked me why i didn't have 2 more sets instead and i told the truth 😅
@@angrydragonslayer Should have sold a kidney for just a few extra bits. Serves you right for being cheap and practical and not mindlessly buying minis from GW overlords. /s
The most important thing is that your army list is correct and, if you are running multiple of the same unit/model with different load outs, that they are easily differentiated.
With free wargear i don't care what equipment units are equiped with as long as I'm told before hand and any special weapons are assigned to a distinctive model. Same for tanks. If sponsons aren't modelled but they want to use them in game, as long as i know beforehand then i have no problem letting them use weapons i can't see
For anyone that wants to have options when making lists, but isn't a trillionaire with a small country to store their warhammer collection in, please for the love of god, just let your opponent know what's what before the battle. If you want every possible wargear choice for, say, 3 squads of 5 Scourges, you'd have to get 105 of them (21 boxes). Just get 3 boxes, build the long weapons, and say you're playing whichever option you want to play that day.
Ahem … *magnets*. Requisite smartassery out of the way, magnets are useful for having options on tap, and makes your army more edition-shift resistant. In terms of WYSIWYG vs not, personally I’d say as long as it’s fairly clear what’s what, then it’s not too big a deal, especially if it’s a dope conversion and paint job or the like. Bonus points if you’ve got an awesome backstory for why your Ultramarine successor has a Space Wolves power axe or something, for example.
@@Zayamad absolutely! But I still believe it’s a useful skill to learn. I know my first attempts at magnetization were pretty garbage, but even still it helped considerably. At the end of the day, as long as people on both sides know what the models are representing and agree to it, they’re your models, and it’s your game.
@@shae98sc2 I would agree, but there are many kits that simply do not facilitate magnetization very well. I brought up scourges cause they, and most other Eldar, are too "dainty" to effectively magnetize weapon options. On top of that, many kits nowadays are monopose in the extreme, in that even arms have these oddly shaped "sockets" making it so that only the correct arm will only fit there in only the correct orientation. All the Battle Sisters are a great example of this. I wouldn't say it's completely impossible, but very inconvenient and most likely the end result will be rather unsightly due to gaps created by that magnetization process not making for the same snug fit as simply using glue.
3d printing negates all of this. I can print any version of any space mans that i want. and its much cheaper. Otherwise, noone really cares, the base size needs to match. and roughly the same height.
Mostly a casual player, but I couldn't care less how people proxy stuff. Ork boyz as standins for special weapons in a Guard squad? Go right ahead. Beer bottle drop pod? Absolutely. Running your immaculately painted Blood Angels as Iron Warriors CSM? No problem. Running a 3rd party gundam as a Fellblade? Why not
I mean everything has a limit. I.e. using a beer bottle for a drop pod wouldn’t bother me, but using 9 beer bottles to proxy 3 different types of dreadnaughts, that would bother me.
The only problem with wysiwyg is when GW tried to enforce it via their recent “only what’s in the box” policy. So for example, no special weapons teams for Guard or Chaos terminators and chosen not being able to take all one kind of weapon. It kills any uniqueness in the army, and if you built your models a certain way it’s basically the company telling you “You did it wrong, better hope there’s a legends entry so you can cope.”
GW’s goal with locked squad sizes and wargear to box contents was to eliminate the third party bits market. See: Chapterhouse lawsuit. I love converting models but I make it super clear to opponents what things are. For example, all of my plasmas have green glows, all meltas have red, all my lascannons have blue. If things have missiles, they’re missiles. I magnetize all tanks so everything is easy to see. I am always extremely consistent and you can stand 8’ feet away to immediately tell what my models are. I have played against people who take proxying way too far though, and intentionally change what proxies what throughout the game.
I think in the Havok example if you don’t mind using less chaosy models using heresy Modells can get you to a full lascannon squad or whatever you like It’s cheaper especially secondhand
A large part of this game is about mental load. If you’re asking your opponents to remember what’s what in your army that adds to their mental load. It’s fine for friendlies with your group if you’re testing things out, but if you’re playing in tournaments or against strangers I’d say it’s bad form.
I don't find it's an issue all long as it's clear. I have some fantasy minotaur models that I run as chaos Ogryn/bullgrn in my army dependent on if I'm running guard or csm. Never had a single person take an issue with it except hobby elitists who didn't like that they were 3d printed. As long as it's distinct the mental load isn't an issue. Now if you're trying to proxy some plasma guns as meltas and other plasma guns are still plasma guns then you can get an issue.
Back in the 2nd/3rd edition days we had a sensible approach to this: - Everything is WYSIWYG unless stated otherwise - Proxies are fine - Proxying MUST be consistent - If that flamer painted red is a plasma gun, ALL flamers painted red must be plasma guns. If that truck over there is actually a Rhino, that identical one on the other side of the board can't be a Land Raider - Don't be a dick - don't proxy for advantage, or proxy things that are wildly different dimensions from the things they're representing. - Declare all proxies before the game, so there's no ambiguity
Some time around 5th/6th edition the Win At All Costs mindset took over and people were less likely to discuss things with their opponents beforehand, and a lot more hardline about what was/wasn't considered acceptable. That attitude has eroded the implied goodwill between players to the detriment of the game overall.
More than 15 years ago an Ork player asked me for a match in a FLGS. Before we set down the models he asked, if he could proxy a model. I asked what kind of proxy he had in mind. He answered that his Ork Trukk would be represented by the lid of a cookie box as it roughly had the same dimensions. I didn´t reply, made a 180° turn and went somewhere else in the shop.
My Chapter Master(s) for my Successor chapter is actually a Gulliman Proxy with 3 Models on the same base size as Guilliman: 2 x Captains (which are twin chapter masters) and 1 x Custodes from The Aquilan Shield - Gonna model them so they are standing on rocks so that the height my model matches guilliman :D
I remember playing in a tournament, where my opponent had a Necron Overworld with Resurrection Orb and the other arm missing. When attacking it, he revealed it was actually a crazy powerful melee character model, causing me to lose. So there is a limit to which I support proxying.
So did neither of you clarify properly each unit? Not read over each other's army lists? "Hey, that dudes missing his orb, just a normal overlord?" Sounds like someone wasn't communicative enough, either you or them. Any obvious proxies should be asked about. Anything that doesn't match the model should be explained and always be ready to be asked about "That devastator squad has gravcannons, not meltas, right?" Takes literally 10 seconds
@@schwarzerritter5724 and this is why u hate true scale, the point of heroic scale and wysiwyg was that by just a glance at a unit you could reasonably, after getting some experience, gauge the abilities of a unit based on what was on them because the oversized weapons meant you noticed them right away, proxying completely prevents people from being able to accurately judge and therfore assess a units abilities and I hate the people who don't want to adhere to wysiwyg, they are coming in with a video game mindset when they need to understand if you want to take options, then perhaps you need to put some time and effort into magnetizing their models.
@@colinbielat8558or, hear me out, it's a hobby first and a game second. As long as you communicate with your opponent like an adult there should be no confusion on what is what. A simple "hey, what is that overlord equipped with?" Would have solved the entire problem without throwing a temper tantrum over people wanting to explore what the game has to offer.
@@colinbielat8558that’s ignoring the fact that making every model wysiwyg can be very costly and time consuming in an already expensive and time consuming hobby. Any problems you have with proxying can be solved with just a few seconds of communication
I doubt my opponent will care if I mention my proxies because GW deleted the weapons options from the models after I built them WYSIWYG. Yes, my Catachan sergeants are modeled with Chainswords because it was legal when I built them. Yes, my Catachans have shotguns because it was legal when I built them. They're close combat weapons and lasguns now.
I know what you mean about weapons options being deleted. I modelled a guard veteran squad with shotguns and have decided to use the shotguns in an exaction squad rather than buy the proper models, and all my dark vengeance chaos cultists will get autopistols and brutal assault weapons. I would mix the shotguns and other deleted options in with wysiwyg models and remove the non wysiwyg models first.
My Terminator Captain was WYSIWYG legal at the start of 10th with 2 Thunder Hammers (granted I wouldn't have ran him that way, but with a shield instead), but when their codex came out they just took his hammers & shield away, so now he's extremely anti-WYSIWYG (might just make him a Sgt & put a shield on his back, then do a new Captain as I hadn't built the squad yet)
Reject it to a degree. I hate the rule with a burning passion. However I understand why it exists. I think as long as the model is identifiable as what it’s supposed to be then it’s fine. I have a bunch of dragons being ridden by space marines, proxying them as Thunderwolf Cavalry for a Salamanders successor chapter. They have all the right dimensions, and are equipped with thunder hammers as their heirloom weapons and shields. I’d expect that after telling my opponent what they are one time, they’d understand going forward and wouldn’t be like “uhhhhh but why are they on dragons if they’re Thunderwolf they look like _____ unit instead”
I'm doing the exact same. Decided I'd like a cool Space Marine riding Dragons army and looked at Space Wolves. Now I'm building my Salamander Successors : The Molten Drakes. I also have Wulfen proxies that have dragon helms and will eventually have little drakes for proxy F. Wolves, and their Chapter Master will be riding a giant armored dragon.
@Desm0708 but you see, what you've done actually makes sense, and you've taken steps to help your opponent understand what's happening. That's more of a conversion or a narrative scratch build than a proxy. (Which sounds awesome btw). Where proxying becomes a problem is when your none of your opponent's weapons match the actual model for over half of their army, for no other reason than they're afraid they'll lose because they aren't playing the "meta". Idk man, sounds like I need to join your gaming group. Seems like I'm in the wrong club.
For tournament play, given I run things like Traitor Guard and used to run a kroot themed Tau army (rather than a kroot army like now), I print off a sheet with pictures of the models and the names of the unit that it's proxying and hand it to my opponent.
@@kenupton4084I’m a bit of a purist too. Whilst I enjoy converting, I could never buy fully 3d-printed space marines because the armour marks might be inaccurate
Proxy are fine as long as you tell your opponent what you have. It's a little annoying when the Leman Russ with Heavy flamers starts shoot Plasma cannons at you and it wasn't discussed at all. Personally I WYSIWYG all my models cause I find it more fun to convert them all with the weapons I want them to have.
Im team proxy. As long as every rules wise disctint unit is visibly distinguishable (maybe put a little name plate on a base as an addon) then why limit gameplay to the size of a players wallet? Gameplay avability and user experience over anything else.
It depends entirely what you proxy with what. "I know my Deff Dread has 3 claws and one skorcher, but I want to try 4 claws today if that's okay with you"
All my armies are wysiwyg. I try to represent even the wargear/warlord traits/enhancements in my models. I think it's considerate to the other player, in addition of this being the whole reason I sculpt and kitbash my models; visual storytelling. But all my friends don't really care either way. I do it mostly for me
The small group that I play with has been very good about allowing both kinds of proxies “the Sergeant has a Power Fist” and “These three Stormcast Liberators are Bladeguard Veterans.” We’re just happy to be able to play the game :)
I build WYSIWYG for my own selfish reasons. I would 100% forget my deathwing terminators were using a plasma cannon or chain fists if they weren't modeled that way. I wouldnt know the difference from someone else's army, so whatever they tell me i generally take at face value.
I want to be WYSIWYG, but some models still don’t have parts to make them have their wargear. Example: Legionaries can take a Lascannon as a weapon option, but the closest piece in the kit is a rocket launcher.
@@Grimpo96 you can buy a unit of havocs and take a lascannon from that kit and put it on a legionary, that is the whole point of "firstborn" kits, complete cross capability with other firstborn kits. Your tactical squad wants a multi melta, well you can find one in the devesator squad and you still get enough heavy weapons to fill out a squad. And as a bonus the purchase you made to get said weapon also nets you another squad you can use.
@@colinbielat8558 I think GW even marketed the havocs weapons being compatible with legionaries when they were updated, which is probably the reason they still have the options
@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle see you are not thinking as a modeler player, you are only thinking as a player. By buying a box of legionaries and havocs you get two squads with access to a wider degree of wargear options, especially considering with one box of havocs you will have extra heavy weapons to put on further boxes of legionaries you buy. And really why wouldn't you want a unit of havocs?
@@colinbielat8558 I don't want to buy an entire extra box for a one-off squad. Locking box options behind other boxes makes commission painting and assembling an absolute nightmare
There have been plenty of times where my Ultramarine Predators or Vindicators have been seen shooting alongside a Chaos Space Marine army, or Death Guard army... I always just roleplay that they've recently been converted and the battle started before they could get the paint done
You can just use rubber band around modela leggs, its great to represent diffrent loadout, much more visual clear for oponent, and you can make small document to give to oponet with inforamtion- blue band is graneda launcher in scout scuad, green in shoutgan,
Long before the imperial knight kit was a thing, I had an army of giant ork walkers that counted as an armored company. Everything counted as a leman russ or a chimera and was mounted on custom bases that were roughly the size of the "proper" model. Guardsmen were just grots with stolen cadian gear. Even took them to a pretty big tournament with no big issues. Had a discussion about line of sight with opponents before the game so there were no surprises, basically just made sure we were both clear on how the terrain would interract with my army. Usually we just agreed that if it would block Los to a normal tank it would block one of my monstrosities. The most important thing was that the copy of my army list I handed out to my opponents was a sort of cheat sheet on what everything was in my army complete with pictures and a full run down of weapons and gear. Now, this was kind of a best case scenario. I was pushing the limit of counts as about as far as it could go in an official setting. And the crowd that attended this event were known to be cool with this sort of thing. So I'd advise getting the OK of whoever is organizing the event before you do this and make sure you do everything in your power to make things crystal clear to your opponents. I just wanted to share my experience on a rather extreme case of proxy/counts as that I was able to pull off quite successfully.
I’m using Unbroken as a young Ursula Creed, 6th edition Turmiel retrofitted with Plasma gun arm and massive sword on his back as stand in for Cypher and a 6th edition Chosen with claw hand as stand in for Huron Blackheart 😉
I just played a 2 day team tourney with WTC that was incredibly dense terrain. My IG opponent running 5+ tanks hadn't bothered putting on any of his sponsons, which meant he was able to fit through most gaps, even though he was rolling for them.
@@carvus53 honestly I didn't even realise for so long. Nowadays I'm just used to tanks having like 10 weapons to fire every turn and only about four of them modelled
WYSIWYG for infantry made a lot more sense when the model kits were more modular. Like the old Tactical, Assault, and Devastator marine kits. The newer kits with more dynamic, but single pose, models make swapping wargear so much more difficult. Some armies suffer more here than others.
WYSIWYG is a concept that should be reserved for only the most ultra-competitive players only. Realistically these models are going to spend way more time on your shelf rather than on the tabletop so it's very important that you enjoy the look of your army.
@@kurzor0007It's whiners and tryhards that I've experienced. They can kiss my Iron Warrior ass if they think we're going to replace models every time GW doesn't like something in the tournament scene and changes it every few weeks/months. People aren't made of money or have the time.
At the end of the day I think for 98% of players WYSIWYG is just not feasible. All you need is an army list, and the ability to communicate which unit is which. I've heard horror stories about people going "Uh, that's not a Heavy Flamer, that's just a Flamer, you can't attack with it, I'm getting a judge, etc." and honestly if they even tried something like that I'd just pack up and leave. I have never met a player that cared about WYSIWYG, even in tournaments, as long as you had a list and squads were easily identifiable I have never had an issue. I pray I neve meet someone that radical about it.
@@carysage Because gw even in newer kits (ex legionaries for CSM) doesn't bother with providing all necessary options. Additionally when playing some lists where there are fan favourite named characters (Space Sharks, Blood Ravens, Flesh Tearers etc) people won't run but their conversion/print/official model of said character. And that is before accounting in the cost/headache of magnetising every option for every squad and model you own for every wargame these models may be used in, since OPR and other generalised wargaming rulesets area good alternative when playing someone whose army was gutted by the latest ruleset tweak (like custodes pre nerf Vs mechanicus)
Below are a few guard proxies that strike me as fairly common proxies that I completely understand as they're better in every single way. 1) Officer sidearms being plasma pistols as there's no point whatsoever to ever pick laspistols or boltpistols due to plasma just being better in every single scenario. 2) Sentinel chainsaws. No point to not take it, it's free and better in every single way compared to the standard close combat weapon. 3) Pintle mounted guns being heavy stubbers as there's no reason why you'd ever want storm bolters. 4) All vehicles having Hunter Killer Missiles because why not? 5) Super heavies having two sets of sponsons because who wouldn't want 2 extra lascannons and twin heavy bolter/heavy flamers for free? 6) All power weapons being fists where allowed because why woulnd't you want an extra 2str and 1 dmg? There are probably more but those were the ones that sprung to mind and tbh, I get why some guard players don't wanna buy another 60 guardsmen from GW just to get a few power fists and/or plasma pistols for the sergeants.
WYSIWYG is a must for immersion... it's impossible to enjoy immersion anymore with movement rules that allow for side strafing tanks and shooting happening from any point in a model so I've seen a Dorn shoot out of its fender poking out 1mm off a corner with all guns in its might. Why turn to face your enemy when armor doesn't have directionality, just slide around and let your exhaust be your cannon. When rules are like this who cares if a model is official or not, just play proxies that are readable and enjoy plastic on a table top, realism has long since left the chat. Those who whinge about it are the same sweaties who play for the win and not the fun of it.
Long time ago a friend invited a new guy to play. He said "I'm gonna proxy a little bit". Was kind of confusing, when his banshees used turboboost "I told you they were jetbikes!"
I used plastic dinosaurs as demons and elementals when I first played warhammer fantasy (back in the day!). I try to have the right models holding generally what they should, but fun comes first. I don’t play to get audited by someone.
I want to proxy in rubber chickens for my Deathwatch combi-weapons, as combi-weapons don't exist now so it doesn't matter. I don't have a problem with a proxy unit if you're trying something out, or if your new Codex has just dropped and you're getting into that particular faction and haven't got the new unit/s yet. That's fine. It's when people proxy the same bare grey plastic for years on end for their army that I might start to get a bit miffed with it.
I do buy at least one unit of an army from GW to support them, but i fill many units with 3d prints to let me have variety without my wife killing me. I was looking to go to my first Tacoma open, but read that proxies were not allowed: im not sure if they check as i make sure my models are quality and clear, so they would easily pass, but i also dont want to spend money on a ticket and hotel, then being told to leave.
Never been to a tournament myself, very casual player here but I think in tournament play it should be a WYSIWYG to smooth out the timed play and help people out in what’s probably a more tense situation than casual games. Outside of that, just let them know what you’ve got! Minka Lesk is a favourite miniature of mine, and she’s been a Cadian Castellan every time
I have a sole Catachan sniper model that I've always used the Vindicare Assassin rules for. Nobody has ever had a problem with it, because they can easily tell that he's different from the Space Marine army I use him with
Weapons should match the army list. Other than that, go nuts. I love to kitbash models and enjoy seeing other players kitbashing as well. On the base size thing. Tournaments should allow older minatures, as long as they are on the base they were supplied with at the time. I don't se why I should have to replace my 4000pts CSM army just because GW decided to change the bases.
In the past, 3rd-6th ed, I mainly built and played WYSIWYG. These days most of my list would fall under proxy. 10 plasma gun marines as Hellblasters, Sgt Telion plus two sniper scouts blu tacked to 32mm bases as Eliminators. Mostly it stems from my entire collection being firstborn and practically fully painted 😂
The examples you have in 12:20 are unfortunately common in my club. The players who engage in that practice constantly carry on like martyrs, hiding behind "I'm not rich enough to have all the options I want/need" completely ignoring the fact that armies are a collective of mutually supporting units that cover each other's weaknesses. I've been playing since the start of third edition. Until primaris units hit the scene, I used the same space marine units as they were modelled every edition successfully on the field. My Tyranids have done even better in the same circumstances. The myth that you must have access to absolutely every conceivable option to safeguard against being 'caught out' between erratas and edition changes is largely a personal generalship issue. My experience of meeting many, many different players over the years has shown me that indulging this ideation breeds undue anxiety in the people who practice it, as they become overly dependant on having everything 'just right' - they soon become incapable of any unexpected change or adjustments that come their way. 'Mental load' is a great way to put it: last month, I took on an Admech Player, whose every weapon option (that wasn't on a Vanguard or Ranger) did not match what was modelled. It was an absolute nightmare to keep track of every instance where I could no longer trust my eyes. Clearly he wasn't thinking of his opponent's enjoyment - only their own chances of winning. Look, I do believe there is such thing as tasteful proxy. But it must be done absolutely sparingly; less than 10% of the army if you must put a number on it. In regards to 3d printing; if the model reasonably reads as the intended rules to your opponent, who is looking at it from across the table, then it's fine. And I can see many reasons why someone would want to go down this route; a Felinid Astra Militarum army I was once privileged to witness comes to mind. But I don't think that applies to what is traditionally considered "proxying".
When GW keeps making certain models literally unplayable or certain weapon combos unplayable I think rejecting wysiwyg is not only acceptable, but a DUTY for hobbyists to avoid buying into GW's relentless obsoletion and FOMO treadmill.
it's refreshing to see that the video (and the comments) are reasonable in allowing it/be willing to put it to a pre-game conversation. Reddit on the other hand (yeah, I know, I know, my own fault tbh) will reeeee at you if you suggest that *maybe* it's unreasonable to expect the exact loadout options equipped as per your list. As a new player, this is made even harder since the recent instruction books don't actually name the weapon options at all.
Just give your opponent a list lol. People don't usually have expert knowledge of what guns a model in an army they've never owned has. It doesn't matter. Just go over the list before you start and it's fine. Who cares? Lol @@JudasBrennan
I wouldn't mind it too much. Generally about anything in the hobby I think, haha. I just want to have a good time with my friends. I have played against a half painted IG Combat Patrol, we have used grey Minas Tirith ruins for Killteam, a shoebox for a tank or a beerbottle for a tower. And because we cannot be arsed to magnetize everything, we also allow proxying weapons on models of course. We'll just have to write it down somewhere and discuss it.
Wysiwyg rules: Friendly game=any reasonable substitute (Prison hammer uses paper with names written on). Tournament play= have the model you are using but any config. Grand Tournament= True Wysiwyg as respect for event and opponents time and focus.
In reference to proxying another army as a different one and the breaking of immersion, I feel that this can sometimes add to immersion. I remember, years ago, when Dark Angels could field all terminator armies back in the days of force organization, one regular player in my group had an Ork all mega armor Nob army called "Da Deafwing" that was a Dark Angels Death Wing proxy army. I also have a desire to one day be able to field a Space Sharks army that is Space Wolf Fenrisian Wolf spam, but they are all riding sharks with their fins replaced by jump pack bits.
And this is exactly why I write up squad notecards that denote exactly what is within each squad/unit, and also color-code bases. This way they are A) accessible and easily readable by by myself and my opponent if htey want/need the refresher, and B) bespoke to a greater or lesser degree. For example, the terminators with a red rim on their base are...Terminator Squad Red, and the guy with the gryphon on a blue field is carrying an assault cannon instead of a storm bolter, and the sergeant with the power sword has a chainfist and cyclone missile launcher. Oh, and the blue squad of terminators have all thrown away their storm bolters for hammers and shields.
As long as you note the specific weapons down in a unit on the actual model using another type of gun or marking its fine, otherwise if they're all the same specific weapons can be where they want to be when they want too, leaving them till last even though they otherwise would have died being at the front
So a bit of rules that came up in a recent tournament that i just happened to remember, as far as your "base" argument, via modding bases. Apparently if you alter the base to much, where the mini is on a HUGE height rock or something that can "change its LOS" or a smaller base that can shrink its Area to dodge enemy LOS, or any other weird stuff like that, can, and will be ruled as "Modeling for Advantage", and is apparently a BANNABLE offense in tournaments.
I did do a proxy conversion of my venerable dreadnought into a balistus dread. I cut out a circle of 1" foam and made a cool base for him to stand on that is the same size as the new dread bases, then used a missile launcher from an impulsor and replaced the power first.. It has the same height and base size but is a little more narrow width wise. I always give benefit of doubt to the opponent when it comes to line of sight issues but overall it has worked great and most everyone that sees it thinks it's an awesome 'proxy'
I have a Nork Deddog model I kit bashed Col. Greiss on to his shoulder as a cool look fluff piece. As the Commissiar cap on his model was gifted to him from Greiss. I have run it as a Company Commander model and keep a 25mm base to measure and only use this in more friendly games. As correct line of sight is impossible.
My LGS literally has a complimentary proxy box (for emergencies only, like broken mini, or in my case making 2 venomthropes and a neurothrope in 9th since I wasn’t aware of unit count😅), containing those little plastic Xmas trees for most infantry units, some empty bottles for drop pods, and the store owner supplies an apple and / or an orange for monsters and vehicles.
My group plays online ajd prefers WYSIWYG but allows proxying. Our SM guy recently had to proxy nearly his entire army because the models he'd been using started to malfunction. Granted, he's proxying because he doesn't want multiple paint-schemes in the army, but it still has led to weird situations. His multi-meltas (multi-anything) are done up as just dual wielding meltas. In short, we do proxying where necessary and where problems are unlikely (base size, model size, similarity, etc.). We keep things labelled in-game, which prevents a LOT of problems Edit: forgot to mention, SM's Salamanders/Firestorm Gladius and he went from using Dawn of War models to fanmade mk3 suits
I think as long as its dicussed with the other player before hand and agreed upon then alls good. I dont proxy currently, mainly WYSIWYG, but I also like the "Rule of Cool" when assembling models as rules change, and most of the time my models are sat on a shelf for me to admire.
My only problem is if the other player doesn't communicate well. I have the short-term memory of a fig, so if you remind me your intercessors are played with a different loadout, or your chess pawns represent terminators, just remind me.
Yes absolutely. I completely agree with customizations and wizzywig as long as the model is pre selected before the battle so that there can't be any cheating.
I could understand in an organized setting not proxying models as different models, an Infernus Marine can't pretend to be a Terminator. But as long as you identify before the match that you are proxying equipment on your models I see no issue, like this Terminator doesn't actually have a power sword, he has a power fist. These models are expensive and take a long time to properly build and paint so I understand people being hesitent to want to rebuild a whole unit because the way they're built isn't the most effective way to run that unit. Especially when the starter sets don't give you full access to that unit's equipment.
I used to WYSIWYG, and back in 4th, when GW had a bits mailorder going, and I wasn't disillusioned of wargear being axed, that was all fun. The old plastic Space marine commander has always been one of my favorite kits. I was just bummed out it didn't have a jump pack in the kit Then, new gear came, and gear got nerfed, stuff like that, and I had essentially "dead models' on the shelf. And now I just want to have models different enough so my opponent can tell that one is different enough. I used to have like 4 of each heavy weapon for Space marine devastator squads for example. But what I didn't do... lore accurate squad markings. At least it would allow me to chuck a heavy weapon of my choice in a tac squad without looking out of place. And in some cases, I'd magnetize for WYSIWIG purposes Immersion is a big one for me. I got into 40k (and other games) for the rule of cool, and I love building terrain (and I do some wargaming content on socials); seeing grey hordes... while I won't flatout refuse it... I do have an opinion on it. Same goes for tables that are boring. I love to have nice visuals. But alas, I'm not a regular gamer, I haven't played in a few years (but I barely have any unpainted mini's/no pile of shame). I'm more in it for the painting and modelling than actual gaming
As long as your opponent knows exactly what load out your unit has before the game I couldn’t imagine many people caring. If they’re converted, I think as long as they’re clearly trying to make it look like the thing, and as long as it looks cool, then that’s just a cool part of the hobby!
My last battle i ran assault and devastator marines as Deathwatch Veterans (4 heavy thunder hammers and 4 heavy weapons). Was quite a sight of 40 Marines and 10 Termies lol
I converted my Allarus term weapons into halberds, just because i like the look. And if i ever find a good 3d model file of Mordred from the Fate franchise they will become my go to blade champion
In my local gaming group I've recently been running a couple of proxy squads: some assault intercessors as jump intercessors and some intercessors as sternguard veterans. I want to try them out in my list, and as I've promised to paint more models before buying anymore- this is the best option for me. I always ask my opponent if it is ok first (if not I'd just play them as their actual datasheets) and also keep the wargear as wysiwyg as well (at a slight disadvantage for myself). If people in the gaming group didnt allow me to try-before-I-buy every now and again I'd definitely not want to play as often, which if many people felt the same would harm the group with reduced players and fees for the clubs.
The problem as well with wysiwyg i have run into is an Overlord with Void Scythe/Staff of Light and Resurrection Orb. There is not a GW model that is sold with these anymore. Its only either the Overlord with the Translocation Shroud (which only has Overlords Blade and Resurrection Orb). Or the Overlord with the Tachyon Arrow. The Void Scythe Overlord is no longer sold. And the Overlord model that comes with the Catacomb Command Barge comes with the wrong base size and only the Overlords Blade with a Resurrection Orb (which is an invalid combo with the standard Overlord.
Every model I fielded back in my gaming days was heavily converted. Sometimes it wouldn't be super-clear what equipment was but I'd do my best to make it obvious if a weapon was standard or heavy based on size, etc. because the whole point of playing pieces is for them to be recognisable at a distance. Back then, no-one minded. Now I'm restarting, I'll do exactly the same. If it ever drew complaints in a game, that's cool, just a game I'd miss out on, no harm done.
An easier way to handle it would be to have cards in front of them with some sort of token that's numbered and represents each squad and any individual miniatures on the table in play. It can then If a player makes a move a certain weapon the person has to pull the card to prove they have that weapon and or ability. In fact Games Workshop could even us it to introduce new weapons easier by distributing like a card game that has additional weapons and abilities to equip on your miniatures.
Fine video. Personally I'm not keen on edge case proxies, but grew to be lenient towards WYSIWYG throughout over 25 years within the game. The way I see it I'd rather have you field a cool looking, painted character with bada$$ weapons, rather than wysiwyg piece of grey plastic. Also let's not forget GW going out of their way for us to have more characters than actual units in our collections. If you go like "this chunky Terminator Chaplain does for a Captain today" I'm totally cool with that, as long as the size and base fits. Same for gear options on squads. Let's say you have two CSM Legionnaires squads, a Lascanon each, but the miniatures have Missile Launchers - cool, as long as big anti tank gun is represented within the squad, does not matter much. The issues start co creep up at competitive events, where sometimes a particular type of player may try to keep things murky and obscured for their opponents, but even there I've seen more leniency towards WYSIWYG than in prior editions. I'm cool with that. I'd rather have my own miniatures build with best looking gear, dynamically posed and looking great. Does it really matter what gear does a squad of Aggressors pack on the miniatures, if I explicitly inform you they're running Boltstorm Gauntlets and Fire Discipline? Hard to forget the main threat, hard to get confused by Flamestorm Gauntlets glued on top od 1,5" tall plastic toys.
With the age of some GW minis, proxying and kitbashing is the easier approach. I ended up having to build my 3e Eshin rats (skirmishers with crit mortals) out of Plague Monks kits (shock melee infantry), and was always useful to explain what everything was to my opponent beforehand. (not much of an issue for now with Eshin axed completely until their decades-overdue range update, but still...)
I saw the thumbnail and thought the marine holding the power axe was named Wysiwyg and that you wanted us to reject him.
Poor LT Wysiwyg, he didn’t do nothing. How can he? He’s competing with a thousand other LTs.
Auspex Tactics is racist?!1!1?!1?1!
😂 idk shit had me laughing so hard
Yup, screw that guy! He always complains about people not pronouncing his name right!
Me fr
My bet is on Proxying he looks like a bigass tank
If it's not an imperium weapon I have no idea what the gun should look like.
"My unit is firing it's Nexus Annihilation Rupture Blaster"
Alright man, what's the strength?
Honestly, THIS!! I've seen many talk about how the mixing of wargear options could confuse people, but even if it was WYSIWYG, I'd still be entirely reliant on my opponent if they brought an Eldar army.....because why would I ever take the time to learn the rules for the Knife Ears XD.
As a new player, same. Just the idea that proxying can be confusing strikes me as some extreme long-term player problem, since I'm seeing half your army for the first time today anyway.
14 AP-4 anti titan 3+
@@demon1103 the only way it is a problem to me is if you can't tell which ones are which when they die and can't keep it straight in that unit.
@@TheProteanGeek I get this. It's why I do think it's important to have ways to easily identify what is what through other means if you decide to proxy.
I would say a good way is color coding bases (red rim= Flamer, Yellow= Melta, this kind of thing), and have this written down with your list.
The Welsh man named Wysiwyg when you tell him he's being rejected from the 40k tournament
I laughed
How do you pronounce Wysiwyg in Welsh? I mean I look at it and assume it's pronounced wiz-E-wig, but how it's pronounced and how it looks like it's pronounced are two separate things. Wysiwyg might be Welsh, but Welsh isn't wysiwyg.
@skarlock5257 It would be pronounced as "oo-ah-s-i-oo-g". Long O, ah, soft S, I like in pin, long oh, silent y, hard g.
Idk bro the beer bottle drop pod is a classic staple
Do you recall beerhammer, where, after crushing a beer, you get to drop it as an orbital strike?
It’s one of those things where being too similar can actually be the problem. A drop pod model with a storm bolter that you want to play with Deathwind launcher can be harder to remember than a Beer can as a drop pod.
@@LordGrantius ah beerhammer. Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time.
@@hunterdomingue5600 feels like I should stroke my beard, puff my pipe, and grumble about younglings and their fancy primaris. Never know the struggles of gluing plastic onto metal.
When those beer bombs streaked in, aye, it was a glorious day. Or night. Hard to remember
@@LordGrantius gather children, and let me tell you the tale of when we had to clip bolter handles and you're sisters army would weigh as much as a small child.
My favorite game ive ever played involved my friend realizing he forgot his rhino, walking and grabbing a house roughly the size of a rhino from unused fantasy table, taking the roof off and dumping his marines in, then playing the whole match with it. Was really funny to see this little cottage motoring around the board.
I basically allow whatever proxies you want, as long as the base is the correct size or the hull is roughly the same shape.
AND if it is not confusing, cause if you bring 5 units of intercessors and each one is a diff thing, it’s a mess for your opponent
I'm very much in this camp, except I tend to prefer bigger models that look more imposing. Example: if I have a Cerastus Lancer who has the centaur conversion with a more stylish lance and shield, he's going on a terrained up base so he looks like he's on some cliff overlook and in a "about to charge" pose. Is the model VASTLY taller than the "standard?" Absolutely. Do I care if you can see him through cover when the base version wouldn't? Not at all. Style>Substance
The other was in my old Space Wolves army. I didn't have enough Missile Launchers, so instead I modeled one dude holding the missile and looked like he was going to throw it like a football. He was "Brother Yeetus"
I'm not rebasing my Guard heavy weapons when I have done a lot of work to make them awesome. They were sold with those bases so they are legal as far as I am concerned. This is on GW for randomly shrinking a base after 20 years.
i'm curious, one of my minis has 32mm base instead of 30mm one, would you be fine that on your table?
@@kacpermatysiak9743100% - models making a tiny change from 25mm to 28.5mm bases like gaunts recently isn’t a reason to rebase dozens of gaunts. Just have them a couple mm away from each other instead of base to base when in a swarm
As long as i can tell what units are what apart from each other, proxys are generally fine
Consistency is a point. If your flamers proxy meltas, you can't have some flamers still be flamers so your opponent has to trick which is which.
Generally being the key word, as you can tell me in an imperator Titan cosplay stood on the table apart from other models, but that doesn’t make it tournament legal
I agree, especially if someone wants to try something else out and they let you know before hand. We are all here to have fun.
Proxying easy. The only people who have made a big deal with WYSIWYG is the people you don't wanna play with. I've gone to official warhammer events with fun proxys I've made and got nothing but appreciation.
I agree to proving is okay so long as it consistant. Example I have crisis suits with plasma being used for missles . Having some with plasma and some with missles is not okay but saying there all
Missles is fine
Most of the time your opponent won't notice. My buddy was shooting with a missile launcher on his rhino, and it wasn't until after the game that I saw that there physically was no missile launcher.
Since Geedubs made such upgrades free, not allowing your opponent to use it simply because he built it ten years ago would be unfair
@@MrGBH Yeah it makes me sad for my assault int. sergeant who only has a chainsword from 9th, same with one of my normal intercessors sergeants who has no melee weapon, tho I'm thinking of adding a sword to his waist.
@@MrGBH I got models I just made a year ago that are extremely under equipped now. Kommandos immediately comes to mind. 😅
I was in a similiar situation recently in a casual game. My old Land Raider from ~20yrs ago has x1 Twinlinked Heavy Bolter, x2 Twinlinked Lascannons and a hunter killer missile launcher on it. The free wargear allows all of that plus a storm bolter and multi melta. I asked my opponent before the game if I could also run the imaginary storm bolter and multi melta and he said no, WYSIWYG. :(
My buddy was running the SoB heavy weapons from the old combat patrol. I let him run them all as meltas.
I played in a tournament one time it was a casual one but the organizers let a young kid play he had orks he had all the infantry and the bikes, but his killer cans were made out of pop cans and pipe cleaners and he brought toy tanks as his armour representatives
Tbf, deoending on when this was, there might not have been any models availiable for the Ork tanks.
So he was actually a grot?
@@thehiddenheretic lmao I never thought of it like that but yes I guess he was
This! This is so cute and a perfect reson to allow proxy. Think of how much fun that kid had with his home made Killa Kans.
@@tfilipow7 fun was had by all and it was overall a good experience for him when I talked to him after so that was cool
Look, my Ultramarines may be green, and numerous, and love collecting teef, but they enjoy a good scrap for the glory of _Da Emprah_ all the same!
They get played exactly like their fancy counterparts, they're the same size, and have the same bases. It's just that their Rhino looks like it was built in a shanty town. Or perhaps, out of one. But that doesn't affect how the rules apply to them!
If da boyz actually believe they're beakies, aren't they actually beakies?
Would play against this army any day of the week lol
Hollow out some ultramarine heads and put them on top of the orks and you have a brand new detachment, a bunch of schizo orks who want to be marines
Proxy, and it shouldn't even be a question, in my opinion.
The game is all about creativity. From basing to painting and even in the game itself, when you play crusade, for example. But building shouldn't be?
Damn even in the White Dwarf magazine, a official GW magazine, they show, explain and encourage you to do it yourself.
It needs to be unambigous, your army needs to be readable to the oponent.
I agree, most people’s problem with proxying is when you can’t tell what’s a intercessor or what’s a hellblaster
Well, they used to show and encourage, not so much anymore.
@@eps200I mean anyone with half a brain cell should understand that already
The hobby is for sure. The game however, is a game. You need to have clear delineations of what units are, and have.
Wysiwyg is the simplest way to sidestep the cheating that can occur when people have to trust Noone is going to try to get an advantage by lying about which unit has which weapon.
When I first got into warhammer I never heard of wysiwyg. I had already assembled and primed 500 points of marines. It was kinda discouraging that I was making decisions I wasn't even aware I was making!
@@Prattical Exactly my point.
It’s the same for me
I have to ask, what did you think you were doing when you were assembling the models if not making decisions on what weapons and gear they'd be using in the game? The instruction booklets I've seen so far are pretty clear that there's choices to be made at various points, and they tend to have the stats on each choice (even if those stats are pretty outdated). When I got my first kit I made sure to read the instructions and assemble things properly so that I'd have everything I needed, though it was a Kill Team box so maybe it's more expected to use WYSIWYG with skirmish games?
@daaaah_whoosh I thought it was entirely stylistic. I mean, all the different pieces for standard intercessors look very similar to me. One has a bigger scope, one has like bigger magazines? Idk. I assumed that if you bought the models, you create a valid list. Done. Person has a question, present the list. Those are intercessors, what they are holding shouldn't matter imo.
Warhammer has a lot of discouraging points for new players... Even the Warhammer store employees, whose sole job is to make people buy combat patrols, sometimes struggle not to give off quite an elitist attitude that makes me think I shouldn't bother playing because I'll lose points for being a mediocre painter, or invoke the wrath of a WYSIWYG player for going with a cool component on a leader, or get told I'm modelling for advantage because I posed a model a different way.
I recall when someone asked about using Chaos Sorcerer as a proxy for Master of Possession, and one reply said buddy I'll allow you to put a shoe on the board and call it Baneblade. 🤣
That would be hilarious
GW themselves kinda killed WYSIWYG for Drukhari when they released the Hand of the Archon Killteam and then said "Just pretend those special weapons are default Kabalite splinter rifles"
I'd say i prefer wysiwyg, but since GW decided not to put all wargear options for some units in their box, i say i don't really have a choice but to "proxy" it. Also since there are 20+ factions in the game and most of the players in our club has no idea what are the differences between some tau/eldar/votann weaponry it's kind of whatever if you have the "correct" gear on or not.
My solution is having the datacards at hand, and having indicated on it what unit has what equipment.
I've taken to writing out the datacards prior to battles, and only including the weapons options in the list. I can also put attached characters and their bonuses on the homemade card too. No more forgetting everyone has lethal hits or whatever.
Wysiwig is the tool of the GW proletariat! Reject the whims of our soulless overlords!
The only thing you've got to lose are your shackles!
I'm no expert, but aren't the bourgeoisie the enemy of the worker class (proletariat)?
@@ChrisOsbergI assume they don’t mean that GW is the p but that GW is the b and the p belongs to them/has to obey them.
@@daedalus5253 Ah, maybe there was a missing comma
@@ChrisOsberg I don’t think he knows what the proletariat is because a comma there would just make the sentence read weird.
So Im old and have been to about 30 tournaments. I even went to a few games days and gw tournaments. I have never seen any 3D printed armies but I have seen a LOT of GW kitbashing and proxies. The onlt time in the last 27 years I have seen a judge get involved was over a Demon Prince being to small so the player brought a second DP for any line of sight questions. The judge over heard and just let the guy know if a player had a problem with this he could lose points or be forced to use his other DP during that game.......THATS IT. Enjoy doing your own thing.
Depending on your tournament rules, usually (to my knowledge) you have to use official models? Kitbashing GW stuff together is fine but 3d printed proxies are not. Not everywhere but official matches in general run like this afaik
@@OctoBooze i got in shit for this with one of the units mentioned in the video. i had intercessors with detachable parts on the rifles and like any sensible human, i didn't buy 2? other sets to just have those bits but rather 3d printed them. an organiser asked me why i didn't have 2 more sets instead and i told the truth 😅
@@angrydragonslayer Should have sold a kidney for just a few extra bits. Serves you right for being cheap and practical and not mindlessly buying minis from GW overlords. /s
@@OctoBooze shoulda spent the money i spent on the printer on those 2 sets 😆
The most important thing is that your army list is correct and, if you are running multiple of the same unit/model with different load outs, that they are easily differentiated.
With free wargear i don't care what equipment units are equiped with as long as I'm told before hand and any special weapons are assigned to a distinctive model.
Same for tanks. If sponsons aren't modelled but they want to use them in game, as long as i know beforehand then i have no problem letting them use weapons i can't see
For anyone that wants to have options when making lists, but isn't a trillionaire with a small country to store their warhammer collection in, please for the love of god, just let your opponent know what's what before the battle. If you want every possible wargear choice for, say, 3 squads of 5 Scourges, you'd have to get 105 of them (21 boxes). Just get 3 boxes, build the long weapons, and say you're playing whichever option you want to play that day.
Ahem … *magnets*.
Requisite smartassery out of the way, magnets are useful for having options on tap, and makes your army more edition-shift resistant.
In terms of WYSIWYG vs not, personally I’d say as long as it’s fairly clear what’s what, then it’s not too big a deal, especially if it’s a dope conversion and paint job or the like. Bonus points if you’ve got an awesome backstory for why your Ultramarine successor has a Space Wolves power axe or something, for example.
@@shae98sc2yes but not everyone is skilled at conversions like that, or they are newer to the hobby and afraid of messing up their models.
@@Zayamad absolutely! But I still believe it’s a useful skill to learn. I know my first attempts at magnetization were pretty garbage, but even still it helped considerably.
At the end of the day, as long as people on both sides know what the models are representing and agree to it, they’re your models, and it’s your game.
@@shae98sc2 I would agree, but there are many kits that simply do not facilitate magnetization very well. I brought up scourges cause they, and most other Eldar, are too "dainty" to effectively magnetize weapon options.
On top of that, many kits nowadays are monopose in the extreme, in that even arms have these oddly shaped "sockets" making it so that only the correct arm will only fit there in only the correct orientation. All the Battle Sisters are a great example of this.
I wouldn't say it's completely impossible, but very inconvenient and most likely the end result will be rather unsightly due to gaps created by that magnetization process not making for the same snug fit as simply using glue.
3d printing negates all of this. I can print any version of any space mans that i want. and its much cheaper. Otherwise, noone really cares, the base size needs to match. and roughly the same height.
Mostly a casual player, but I couldn't care less how people proxy stuff. Ork boyz as standins for special weapons in a Guard squad? Go right ahead. Beer bottle drop pod? Absolutely. Running your immaculately painted Blood Angels as Iron Warriors CSM? No problem. Running a 3rd party gundam as a Fellblade? Why not
I mean everything has a limit. I.e. using a beer bottle for a drop pod wouldn’t bother me, but using 9 beer bottles to proxy 3 different types of dreadnaughts, that would bother me.
@@davidgantenbein9362 True however If I got to drink the beer from the proxied dreadnoughts I'd be fine with it
What if it's 3 different brands of beer bottles?
The only problem with wysiwyg is when GW tried to enforce it via their recent “only what’s in the box” policy.
So for example, no special weapons teams for Guard or Chaos terminators and chosen not being able to take all one kind of weapon. It kills any uniqueness in the army, and if you built your models a certain way it’s basically the company telling you “You did it wrong, better hope there’s a legends entry so you can cope.”
GW’s goal with locked squad sizes and wargear to box contents was to eliminate the third party bits market. See: Chapterhouse lawsuit.
I love converting models but I make it super clear to opponents what things are. For example, all of my plasmas have green glows, all meltas have red, all my lascannons have blue. If things have missiles, they’re missiles. I magnetize all tanks so everything is easy to see. I am always extremely consistent and you can stand 8’ feet away to immediately tell what my models are. I have played against people who take proxying way too far though, and intentionally change what proxies what throughout the game.
If you make them write it down before the game starts they can't change it during the game. Simply write this thing = this other thing.
I think in the Havok example if you don’t mind using less chaosy models using heresy Modells can get you to a full lascannon squad or whatever you like
It’s cheaper especially secondhand
A large part of this game is about mental load. If you’re asking your opponents to remember what’s what in your army that adds to their mental load. It’s fine for friendlies with your group if you’re testing things out, but if you’re playing in tournaments or against strangers I’d say it’s bad form.
I don't find it's an issue all long as it's clear. I have some fantasy minotaur models that I run as chaos Ogryn/bullgrn in my army dependent on if I'm running guard or csm. Never had a single person take an issue with it except hobby elitists who didn't like that they were 3d printed. As long as it's distinct the mental load isn't an issue.
Now if you're trying to proxy some plasma guns as meltas and other plasma guns are still plasma guns then you can get an issue.
Back in the 2nd/3rd edition days we had a sensible approach to this:
- Everything is WYSIWYG unless stated otherwise
- Proxies are fine
- Proxying MUST be consistent - If that flamer painted red is a plasma gun, ALL flamers painted red must be plasma guns. If that truck over there is actually a Rhino, that identical one on the other side of the board can't be a Land Raider
- Don't be a dick - don't proxy for advantage, or proxy things that are wildly different dimensions from the things they're representing.
- Declare all proxies before the game, so there's no ambiguity
Some time around 5th/6th edition the Win At All Costs mindset took over and people were less likely to discuss things with their opponents beforehand, and a lot more hardline about what was/wasn't considered acceptable. That attitude has eroded the implied goodwill between players to the detriment of the game overall.
More than 15 years ago an Ork player asked me for a match in a FLGS. Before we set down the models he asked, if he could proxy a model. I asked what kind of proxy he had in mind. He answered that his Ork Trukk would be represented by the lid of a cookie box as it roughly had the same dimensions. I didn´t reply, made a 180° turn and went somewhere else in the shop.
My Chapter Master(s) for my Successor chapter is actually a Gulliman Proxy with 3 Models on the same base size as Guilliman: 2 x Captains (which are twin chapter masters) and 1 x Custodes from The Aquilan Shield - Gonna model them so they are standing on rocks so that the height my model matches guilliman :D
I had a few contemptors for my CSM during 9th, but no Helbrutes. Now I just use them to proxy Helbrutes, because they're somehow weakened dreadies 😑
Same here. I also like that they're much more poseable.
I like making my stuff wysiwyg but i wouldn't enforce it on others
I may or may not be putting bolt pistols and various combat knives on each and every tactical marine i got
I agree. Also my T’au battle line all have pistols, but the kit doesn’t have enough pistols to put them on the models.
I think I'd like to play against more people like you
@@cameronallan9930 I have yet to meet someone who is 100% strict on this. Only tourneys do this type of thing.
I remember playing in a tournament, where my opponent had a Necron Overworld with Resurrection Orb and the other arm missing. When attacking it, he revealed it was actually a crazy powerful melee character model, causing me to lose.
So there is a limit to which I support proxying.
So did neither of you clarify properly each unit?
Not read over each other's army lists?
"Hey, that dudes missing his orb, just a normal overlord?"
Sounds like someone wasn't communicative enough, either you or them. Any obvious proxies should be asked about. Anything that doesn't match the model should be explained and always be ready to be asked about
"That devastator squad has gravcannons, not meltas, right?"
Takes literally 10 seconds
@@william9557 It looked just like an Overlord, why would I think it was a proxy?
@@schwarzerritter5724 and this is why u hate true scale, the point of heroic scale and wysiwyg was that by just a glance at a unit you could reasonably, after getting some experience, gauge the abilities of a unit based on what was on them because the oversized weapons meant you noticed them right away, proxying completely prevents people from being able to accurately judge and therfore assess a units abilities and I hate the people who don't want to adhere to wysiwyg, they are coming in with a video game mindset when they need to understand if you want to take options, then perhaps you need to put some time and effort into magnetizing their models.
@@colinbielat8558or, hear me out, it's a hobby first and a game second. As long as you communicate with your opponent like an adult there should be no confusion on what is what. A simple "hey, what is that overlord equipped with?" Would have solved the entire problem without throwing a temper tantrum over people wanting to explore what the game has to offer.
@@colinbielat8558that’s ignoring the fact that making every model wysiwyg can be very costly and time consuming in an already expensive and time consuming hobby. Any problems you have with proxying can be solved with just a few seconds of communication
I doubt my opponent will care if I mention my proxies because GW deleted the weapons options from the models after I built them WYSIWYG.
Yes, my Catachan sergeants are modeled with Chainswords because it was legal when I built them. Yes, my Catachans have shotguns because it was legal when I built them. They're close combat weapons and lasguns now.
I know what you mean about weapons options being deleted. I modelled a guard veteran squad with shotguns and have decided to use the shotguns in an exaction squad rather than buy the proper models, and all my dark vengeance chaos cultists will get autopistols and brutal assault weapons. I would mix the shotguns and other deleted options in with wysiwyg models and remove the non wysiwyg models first.
My Terminator Captain was WYSIWYG legal at the start of 10th with 2 Thunder Hammers (granted I wouldn't have ran him that way, but with a shield instead), but when their codex came out they just took his hammers & shield away, so now he's extremely anti-WYSIWYG (might just make him a Sgt & put a shield on his back, then do a new Captain as I hadn't built the squad yet)
Reject it to a degree.
I hate the rule with a burning passion. However I understand why it exists. I think as long as the model is identifiable as what it’s supposed to be then it’s fine.
I have a bunch of dragons being ridden by space marines, proxying them as Thunderwolf Cavalry for a Salamanders successor chapter. They have all the right dimensions, and are equipped with thunder hammers as their heirloom weapons and shields. I’d expect that after telling my opponent what they are one time, they’d understand going forward and wouldn’t be like “uhhhhh but why are they on dragons if they’re Thunderwolf they look like _____ unit instead”
I'm doing the exact same. Decided I'd like a cool Space Marine riding Dragons army and looked at Space Wolves. Now I'm building my Salamander Successors : The Molten Drakes. I also have Wulfen proxies that have dragon helms and will eventually have little drakes for proxy F. Wolves, and their Chapter Master will be riding a giant armored dragon.
@Desm0708 but you see, what you've done actually makes sense, and you've taken steps to help your opponent understand what's happening. That's more of a conversion or a narrative scratch build than a proxy. (Which sounds awesome btw).
Where proxying becomes a problem is when your none of your opponent's weapons match the actual model for over half of their army, for no other reason than they're afraid they'll lose because they aren't playing the "meta".
Idk man, sounds like I need to join your gaming group. Seems like I'm in the wrong club.
For tournament play, given I run things like Traitor Guard and used to run a kroot themed Tau army (rather than a kroot army like now), I print off a sheet with pictures of the models and the names of the unit that it's proxying and hand it to my opponent.
my entire collection is 3d printed. I regret nothing. and will do it again.
😂
My entire collection is official GW and FW kits. Many had to be ordered directly from GW. I regret nothing and will do it again.
Attaboy
@@kenupton4084I’m a bit of a purist too. Whilst I enjoy converting, I could never buy fully 3d-printed space marines because the armour marks might be inaccurate
Damn straight. Same here.
Proxy are fine as long as you tell your opponent what you have. It's a little annoying when the Leman Russ with Heavy flamers starts shoot Plasma cannons at you and it wasn't discussed at all. Personally I WYSIWYG all my models cause I find it more fun to convert them all with the weapons I want them to have.
Im team proxy. As long as every rules wise disctint unit is visibly distinguishable (maybe put a little name plate on a base as an addon) then why limit gameplay to the size of a players wallet? Gameplay avability and user experience over anything else.
Outside of highly competitive tournaments (eg big GTs), just make a good faith effort to communicate clearly and that your opponent understands.
It depends entirely what you proxy with what. "I know my Deff Dread has 3 claws and one skorcher, but I want to try 4 claws today if that's okay with you"
All my armies are wysiwyg. I try to represent even the wargear/warlord traits/enhancements in my models. I think it's considerate to the other player, in addition of this being the whole reason I sculpt and kitbash my models; visual storytelling.
But all my friends don't really care either way. I do it mostly for me
The small group that I play with has been very good about allowing both kinds of proxies “the Sergeant has a Power Fist” and “These three Stormcast Liberators are Bladeguard Veterans.” We’re just happy to be able to play the game :)
I build WYSIWYG for my own selfish reasons. I would 100% forget my deathwing terminators were using a plasma cannon or chain fists if they weren't modeled that way. I wouldnt know the difference from someone else's army, so whatever they tell me i generally take at face value.
I want to be WYSIWYG, but some models still don’t have parts to make them have their wargear.
Example: Legionaries can take a Lascannon as a weapon option, but the closest piece in the kit is a rocket launcher.
@@Grimpo96 you can buy a unit of havocs and take a lascannon from that kit and put it on a legionary, that is the whole point of "firstborn" kits, complete cross capability with other firstborn kits. Your tactical squad wants a multi melta, well you can find one in the devesator squad and you still get enough heavy weapons to fill out a squad. And as a bonus the purchase you made to get said weapon also nets you another squad you can use.
@@colinbielat8558 I think GW even marketed the havocs weapons being compatible with legionaries when they were updated, which is probably the reason they still have the options
@@colinbielat8558that's cool and all, but what if I just want to buy a single squad?
@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle see you are not thinking as a modeler player, you are only thinking as a player. By buying a box of legionaries and havocs you get two squads with access to a wider degree of wargear options, especially considering with one box of havocs you will have extra heavy weapons to put on further boxes of legionaries you buy. And really why wouldn't you want a unit of havocs?
@@colinbielat8558 I don't want to buy an entire extra box for a one-off squad. Locking box options behind other boxes makes commission painting and assembling an absolute nightmare
13:55
For Dat Girlyman Git, For Ultramaaaagh!
There have been plenty of times where my Ultramarine Predators or Vindicators have been seen shooting alongside a Chaos Space Marine army, or Death Guard army... I always just roleplay that they've recently been converted and the battle started before they could get the paint done
You can just use rubber band around modela leggs, its great to represent diffrent loadout, much more visual clear for oponent, and you can make small document to give to oponet with inforamtion- blue band is graneda launcher in scout scuad, green in shoutgan,
You can also get little coloured plastic rings that clip onto standard round bases, that'd be an efficient way to handle it.
@@yurisei6732 thats a great idea i need to get this one
Long before the imperial knight kit was a thing, I had an army of giant ork walkers that counted as an armored company. Everything counted as a leman russ or a chimera and was mounted on custom bases that were roughly the size of the "proper" model. Guardsmen were just grots with stolen cadian gear. Even took them to a pretty big tournament with no big issues. Had a discussion about line of sight with opponents before the game so there were no surprises, basically just made sure we were both clear on how the terrain would interract with my army. Usually we just agreed that if it would block Los to a normal tank it would block one of my monstrosities. The most important thing was that the copy of my army list I handed out to my opponents was a sort of cheat sheet on what everything was in my army complete with pictures and a full run down of weapons and gear.
Now, this was kind of a best case scenario. I was pushing the limit of counts as about as far as it could go in an official setting. And the crowd that attended this event were known to be cool with this sort of thing. So I'd advise getting the OK of whoever is organizing the event before you do this and make sure you do everything in your power to make things crystal clear to your opponents. I just wanted to share my experience on a rather extreme case of proxy/counts as that I was able to pull off quite successfully.
When I started I was using paper circles with unit names written on them.
I’m using Unbroken as a young Ursula Creed, 6th edition Turmiel retrofitted with Plasma gun arm and massive sword on his back as stand in for Cypher and a 6th edition Chosen with claw hand as stand in for Huron Blackheart 😉
I just played a 2 day team tourney with WTC that was incredibly dense terrain. My IG opponent running 5+ tanks hadn't bothered putting on any of his sponsons, which meant he was able to fit through most gaps, even though he was rolling for them.
I dont care about wysiwyg but that was pretty scummy and I would call him out on that
Yeah I'd have called that one out personally
Modelling for advantage like that is a completely different kettle of fish
@@carvus53 honestly I didn't even realise for so long. Nowadays I'm just used to tanks having like 10 weapons to fire every turn and only about four of them modelled
Didn't they recently change movement so that its only the base size that needs to fit? (assuming you don't end your move where it doesn't fit)
WYSIWYG for infantry made a lot more sense when the model kits were more modular. Like the old Tactical, Assault, and Devastator marine kits. The newer kits with more dynamic, but single pose, models make swapping wargear so much more difficult. Some armies suffer more here than others.
WYSIWYG is a concept that should be reserved for only the most ultra-competitive players only. Realistically these models are going to spend way more time on your shelf rather than on the tabletop so it's very important that you enjoy the look of your army.
Not ultra competitive, ultra immersive/OCD players
Tournaments don't enforce it either mate, as long as the model is represented fairly. Can even be a painted rim, I've seen that too
My mistake, ulta-dick players then
@@kurzor0007It's whiners and tryhards that I've experienced. They can kiss my Iron Warrior ass if they think we're going to replace models every time GW doesn't like something in the tournament scene and changes it every few weeks/months. People aren't made of money or have the time.
@@TheAtomicSpoon exactly, it's the type of players no one wants to play with
At the end of the day I think for 98% of players WYSIWYG is just not feasible. All you need is an army list, and the ability to communicate which unit is which. I've heard horror stories about people going "Uh, that's not a Heavy Flamer, that's just a Flamer, you can't attack with it, I'm getting a judge, etc." and honestly if they even tried something like that I'd just pack up and leave.
I have never met a player that cared about WYSIWYG, even in tournaments, as long as you had a list and squads were easily identifiable I have never had an issue. I pray I neve meet someone that radical about it.
Can you imagine that? ERRRR ACKSHUALLY THATS JUST A REGULAR FLAMER!!!😂😂😂 As a salamander player, I would pack up asap😂😂
Why isn't it feasible?
@@carysage Because gw even in newer kits (ex legionaries for CSM) doesn't bother with providing all necessary options.
Additionally when playing some lists where there are fan favourite named characters (Space Sharks, Blood Ravens, Flesh Tearers etc) people won't run but their conversion/print/official model of said character.
And that is before accounting in the cost/headache of magnetising every option for every squad and model you own for every wargame these models may be used in, since OPR and other generalised wargaming rulesets area good alternative when playing someone whose army was gutted by the latest ruleset tweak (like custodes pre nerf Vs mechanicus)
Below are a few guard proxies that strike me as fairly common proxies that I completely understand as they're better in every single way.
1) Officer sidearms being plasma pistols as there's no point whatsoever to ever pick laspistols or boltpistols due to plasma just being better in every single scenario.
2) Sentinel chainsaws. No point to not take it, it's free and better in every single way compared to the standard close combat weapon.
3) Pintle mounted guns being heavy stubbers as there's no reason why you'd ever want storm bolters.
4) All vehicles having Hunter Killer Missiles because why not?
5) Super heavies having two sets of sponsons because who wouldn't want 2 extra lascannons and twin heavy bolter/heavy flamers for free?
6) All power weapons being fists where allowed because why woulnd't you want an extra 2str and 1 dmg?
There are probably more but those were the ones that sprung to mind and tbh, I get why some guard players don't wanna buy another 60 guardsmen from GW just to get a few power fists and/or plasma pistols for the sergeants.
I always say I have a sentinal chai sword even when I don’t and my opponents haven’t cared yet
WYSIWYG is a must for immersion... it's impossible to enjoy immersion anymore with movement rules that allow for side strafing tanks and shooting happening from any point in a model so I've seen a Dorn shoot out of its fender poking out 1mm off a corner with all guns in its might. Why turn to face your enemy when armor doesn't have directionality, just slide around and let your exhaust be your cannon.
When rules are like this who cares if a model is official or not, just play proxies that are readable and enjoy plastic on a table top, realism has long since left the chat. Those who whinge about it are the same sweaties who play for the win and not the fun of it.
Im 99% WUSIWYG with my own armies, but 100% liberal when it comes to my opponent armies.
I just like mine to be ‘precise’ for some reason
Long time ago a friend invited a new guy to play. He said "I'm gonna proxy a little bit". Was kind of confusing, when his banshees used turboboost "I told you they were jetbikes!"
I've got one true proxy, I have a recast Legion of the Damned model that looks cooler than most Chaplains so I run him as one.
I used plastic dinosaurs as demons and elementals when I first played warhammer fantasy (back in the day!).
I try to have the right models holding generally what they should, but fun comes first. I don’t play to get audited by someone.
Weapons I go for wysiwyg but I convert sp much stuff you wouldn't notice a proxy
I want to proxy in rubber chickens for my Deathwatch combi-weapons, as combi-weapons don't exist now so it doesn't matter.
I don't have a problem with a proxy unit if you're trying something out, or if your new Codex has just dropped and you're getting into that particular faction and haven't got the new unit/s yet. That's fine. It's when people proxy the same bare grey plastic for years on end for their army that I might start to get a bit miffed with it.
Most army's in my playgroup are now 3d printed proxies.
I do buy at least one unit of an army from GW to support them, but i fill many units with 3d prints to let me have variety without my wife killing me. I was looking to go to my first Tacoma open, but read that proxies were not allowed: im not sure if they check as i make sure my models are quality and clear, so they would easily pass, but i also dont want to spend money on a ticket and hotel, then being told to leave.
Never been to a tournament myself, very casual player here but I think in tournament play it should be a WYSIWYG to smooth out the timed play and help people out in what’s probably a more tense situation than casual games.
Outside of that, just let them know what you’ve got! Minka Lesk is a favourite miniature of mine, and she’s been a Cadian Castellan every time
I have a sole Catachan sniper model that I've always used the Vindicare Assassin rules for. Nobody has ever had a problem with it, because they can easily tell that he's different from the Space Marine army I use him with
I wanted her model, but £25 was absolutely a joke that I could not justify for a reposed Cadian box set sergeant.
Team Proxy 24/7
All my proxys are still wysiwyg, i just like to Convert/Kitbash and use diffrent kits. Never had a problem at an Event
Weapons should match the army list. Other than that, go nuts. I love to kitbash models and enjoy seeing other players kitbashing as well.
On the base size thing. Tournaments should allow older minatures, as long as they are on the base they were supplied with at the time. I don't se why I should have to replace my 4000pts CSM army just because GW decided to change the bases.
In the past, 3rd-6th ed, I mainly built and played WYSIWYG. These days most of my list would fall under proxy. 10 plasma gun marines as Hellblasters, Sgt Telion plus two sniper scouts blu tacked to 32mm bases as Eliminators.
Mostly it stems from my entire collection being firstborn and practically fully painted 😂
The examples you have in 12:20 are unfortunately common in my club. The players who engage in that practice constantly carry on like martyrs, hiding behind "I'm not rich enough to have all the options I want/need" completely ignoring the fact that armies are a collective of mutually supporting units that cover each other's weaknesses. I've been playing since the start of third edition. Until primaris units hit the scene, I used the same space marine units as they were modelled every edition successfully on the field. My Tyranids have done even better in the same circumstances.
The myth that you must have access to absolutely every conceivable option to safeguard against being 'caught out' between erratas and edition changes is largely a personal generalship issue. My experience of meeting many, many different players over the years has shown me that indulging this ideation breeds undue anxiety in the people who practice it, as they become overly dependant on having everything 'just right' - they soon become incapable of any unexpected change or adjustments that come their way.
'Mental load' is a great way to put it: last month, I took on an Admech Player, whose every weapon option (that wasn't on a Vanguard or Ranger) did not match what was modelled. It was an absolute nightmare to keep track of every instance where I could no longer trust my eyes. Clearly he wasn't thinking of his opponent's enjoyment - only their own chances of winning.
Look, I do believe there is such thing as tasteful proxy. But it must be done absolutely sparingly; less than 10% of the army if you must put a number on it.
In regards to 3d printing; if the model reasonably reads as the intended rules to your opponent, who is looking at it from across the table, then it's fine. And I can see many reasons why someone would want to go down this route; a Felinid Astra Militarum army I was once privileged to witness comes to mind. But I don't think that applies to what is traditionally considered "proxying".
This might be the single most pretentious comment I've ever seen on an auspex video.
@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle you couldn't think of anything to explain why you think my opinions are wrong, so you just went for the insult? Good talk.
@@idaeus5949 frankly there isn't anything in your opinion that's right besides the first sentence but you aren't worth the effort to refute
@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle Ooph. Now, who's pretentious? Never mind then. You don't like me, I don't like you. The end.
@@idaeus5949 I'm glad we can find common ground in our intense burning apathy towards each other
I just bought 10 chaos legionaries off eBay with THE most boltgun shaped chain swords I EVER did see…
When GW keeps making certain models literally unplayable or certain weapon combos unplayable I think rejecting wysiwyg is not only acceptable, but a DUTY for hobbyists to avoid buying into GW's relentless obsoletion and FOMO treadmill.
it's refreshing to see that the video (and the comments) are reasonable in allowing it/be willing to put it to a pre-game conversation. Reddit on the other hand (yeah, I know, I know, my own fault tbh) will reeeee at you if you suggest that *maybe* it's unreasonable to expect the exact loadout options equipped as per your list. As a new player, this is made even harder since the recent instruction books don't actually name the weapon options at all.
4 views in 0 seconds? Man Auspex really dropped off.
i can see proxying for things like the lieutenant with combi weapon or judiciars since they come in bundles that are expensive
There are no cons to WYSIWYG. Have some basic respect for your opponent and equip your models with their wargear.
Used to believe this before GW started box locking miniatures. Now I feel like everyone is hating on hobbiest for not being tournament players
@@basstremblexx I've not attended a tournament since 6th Ed 40k, what are you on about lol
Just give your opponent a list lol. People don't usually have expert knowledge of what guns a model in an army they've never owned has. It doesn't matter. Just go over the list before you start and it's fine. Who cares? Lol @@JudasBrennan
I wouldn't mind it too much. Generally about anything in the hobby I think, haha. I just want to have a good time with my friends. I have played against a half painted IG Combat Patrol, we have used grey Minas Tirith ruins for Killteam, a shoebox for a tank or a beerbottle for a tower. And because we cannot be arsed to magnetize everything, we also allow proxying weapons on models of course. We'll just have to write it down somewhere and discuss it.
Wysiwyg rules: Friendly game=any reasonable substitute (Prison hammer uses paper with names written on).
Tournament play= have the model you are using but any config.
Grand Tournament= True Wysiwyg as respect for event and opponents time and focus.
In reference to proxying another army as a different one and the breaking of immersion, I feel that this can sometimes add to immersion. I remember, years ago, when Dark Angels could field all terminator armies back in the days of force organization, one regular player in my group had an Ork all mega armor Nob army called "Da Deafwing" that was a Dark Angels Death Wing proxy army. I also have a desire to one day be able to field a Space Sharks army that is Space Wolf Fenrisian Wolf spam, but they are all riding sharks with their fins replaced by jump pack bits.
And this is exactly why I write up squad notecards that denote exactly what is within each squad/unit, and also color-code bases. This way they are A) accessible and easily readable by by myself and my opponent if htey want/need the refresher, and B) bespoke to a greater or lesser degree. For example, the terminators with a red rim on their base are...Terminator Squad Red, and the guy with the gryphon on a blue field is carrying an assault cannon instead of a storm bolter, and the sergeant with the power sword has a chainfist and cyclone missile launcher. Oh, and the blue squad of terminators have all thrown away their storm bolters for hammers and shields.
As long as you note the specific weapons down in a unit on the actual model using another type of gun or marking its fine, otherwise if they're all the same specific weapons can be where they want to be when they want too, leaving them till last even though they otherwise would have died being at the front
So a bit of rules that came up in a recent tournament that i just happened to remember, as far as your "base" argument, via modding bases. Apparently if you alter the base to much, where the mini is on a HUGE height rock or something that can "change its LOS" or a smaller base that can shrink its Area to dodge enemy LOS, or any other weird stuff like that, can, and will be ruled as "Modeling for Advantage", and is apparently a BANNABLE offense in tournaments.
I did do a proxy conversion of my venerable dreadnought into a balistus dread.
I cut out a circle of 1" foam and made a cool base for him to stand on that is the same size as the new dread bases, then used a missile launcher from an impulsor and replaced the power first..
It has the same height and base size but is a little more narrow width wise.
I always give benefit of doubt to the opponent when it comes to line of sight issues but overall it has worked great and most everyone that sees it thinks it's an awesome 'proxy'
I have a Nork Deddog model I kit bashed Col. Greiss on to his shoulder as a cool look fluff piece. As the Commissiar cap on his model was gifted to him from Greiss. I have run it as a Company Commander model and keep a 25mm base to measure and only use this in more friendly games. As correct line of sight is impossible.
My LGS literally has a complimentary proxy box (for emergencies only, like broken mini, or in my case making 2 venomthropes and a neurothrope in 9th since I wasn’t aware of unit count😅), containing those little plastic Xmas trees for most infantry units, some empty bottles for drop pods, and the store owner supplies an apple and / or an orange for monsters and vehicles.
My group plays online ajd prefers WYSIWYG but allows proxying. Our SM guy recently had to proxy nearly his entire army because the models he'd been using started to malfunction. Granted, he's proxying because he doesn't want multiple paint-schemes in the army, but it still has led to weird situations. His multi-meltas (multi-anything) are done up as just dual wielding meltas. In short, we do proxying where necessary and where problems are unlikely (base size, model size, similarity, etc.). We keep things labelled in-game, which prevents a LOT of problems
Edit: forgot to mention, SM's Salamanders/Firestorm Gladius and he went from using Dawn of War models to fanmade mk3 suits
I think as long as its dicussed with the other player before hand and agreed upon then alls good. I dont proxy currently, mainly WYSIWYG, but I also like the "Rule of Cool" when assembling models as rules change, and most of the time my models are sat on a shelf for me to admire.
My only problem is if the other player doesn't communicate well. I have the short-term memory of a fig, so if you remind me your intercessors are played with a different loadout, or your chess pawns represent terminators, just remind me.
Yes absolutely. I completely agree with customizations and wizzywig as long as the model is pre selected before the battle so that there can't be any cheating.
I could understand in an organized setting not proxying models as different models, an Infernus Marine can't pretend to be a Terminator. But as long as you identify before the match that you are proxying equipment on your models I see no issue, like this Terminator doesn't actually have a power sword, he has a power fist. These models are expensive and take a long time to properly build and paint so I understand people being hesitent to want to rebuild a whole unit because the way they're built isn't the most effective way to run that unit. Especially when the starter sets don't give you full access to that unit's equipment.
I used to WYSIWYG, and back in 4th, when GW had a bits mailorder going, and I wasn't disillusioned of wargear being axed, that was all fun. The old plastic Space marine commander has always been one of my favorite kits. I was just bummed out it didn't have a jump pack in the kit
Then, new gear came, and gear got nerfed, stuff like that, and I had essentially "dead models' on the shelf. And now I just want to have models different enough so my opponent can tell that one is different enough.
I used to have like 4 of each heavy weapon for Space marine devastator squads for example. But what I didn't do... lore accurate squad markings. At least it would allow me to chuck a heavy weapon of my choice in a tac squad without looking out of place. And in some cases, I'd magnetize for WYSIWIG purposes
Immersion is a big one for me. I got into 40k (and other games) for the rule of cool, and I love building terrain (and I do some wargaming content on socials); seeing grey hordes... while I won't flatout refuse it... I do have an opinion on it. Same goes for tables that are boring. I love to have nice visuals. But alas, I'm not a regular gamer, I haven't played in a few years (but I barely have any unpainted mini's/no pile of shame). I'm more in it for the painting and modelling than actual gaming
As long as your opponent knows exactly what load out your unit has before the game I couldn’t imagine many people caring. If they’re converted, I think as long as they’re clearly trying to make it look like the thing, and as long as it looks cool, then that’s just a cool part of the hobby!
My last battle i ran assault and devastator marines as Deathwatch Veterans (4 heavy thunder hammers and 4 heavy weapons). Was quite a sight of 40 Marines and 10 Termies lol
I’ll definitely be proxying my leviathan sternguard vets and terminators. Not my fault that they’re monopose and have no wargear options. 🤷♂️
Time stamp 9:08:
You proxied beer with a glass of mustard?! Unredeemable crime!
I converted my Allarus term weapons into halberds, just because i like the look.
And if i ever find a good 3d model file of Mordred from the Fate franchise they will become my go to blade champion
In my local gaming group I've recently been running a couple of proxy squads: some assault intercessors as jump intercessors and some intercessors as sternguard veterans. I want to try them out in my list, and as I've promised to paint more models before buying anymore- this is the best option for me. I always ask my opponent if it is ok first (if not I'd just play them as their actual datasheets) and also keep the wargear as wysiwyg as well (at a slight disadvantage for myself). If people in the gaming group didnt allow me to try-before-I-buy every now and again I'd definitely not want to play as often, which if many people felt the same would harm the group with reduced players and fees for the clubs.
As a T'au player I can confirm that none of my friends knows how my weapons should look anyways. sometimes not even I know, except for broadsides
The problem as well with wysiwyg i have run into is an Overlord with Void Scythe/Staff of Light and Resurrection Orb. There is not a GW model that is sold with these anymore. Its only either the Overlord with the Translocation Shroud (which only has Overlords Blade and Resurrection Orb). Or the Overlord with the Tachyon Arrow. The Void Scythe Overlord is no longer sold.
And the Overlord model that comes with the Catacomb Command Barge comes with the wrong base size and only the Overlords Blade with a Resurrection Orb (which is an invalid combo with the standard Overlord.
Every model I fielded back in my gaming days was heavily converted. Sometimes it wouldn't be super-clear what equipment was but I'd do my best to make it obvious if a weapon was standard or heavy based on size, etc. because the whole point of playing pieces is for them to be recognisable at a distance. Back then, no-one minded. Now I'm restarting, I'll do exactly the same. If it ever drew complaints in a game, that's cool, just a game I'd miss out on, no harm done.
An easier way to handle it would be to have cards in front of them with some sort of token that's numbered and represents each squad and any individual miniatures on the table in play. It can then If a player makes a move a certain weapon the person has to pull the card to prove they have that weapon and or ability.
In fact Games Workshop could even us it to introduce new weapons easier by distributing like a card game that has additional weapons and abilities to equip on your miniatures.
Fine video. Personally I'm not keen on edge case proxies, but grew to be lenient towards WYSIWYG throughout over 25 years within the game. The way I see it I'd rather have you field a cool looking, painted character with bada$$ weapons, rather than wysiwyg piece of grey plastic. Also let's not forget GW going out of their way for us to have more characters than actual units in our collections. If you go like "this chunky Terminator Chaplain does for a Captain today" I'm totally cool with that, as long as the size and base fits. Same for gear options on squads. Let's say you have two CSM Legionnaires squads, a Lascanon each, but the miniatures have Missile Launchers - cool, as long as big anti tank gun is represented within the squad, does not matter much. The issues start co creep up at competitive events, where sometimes a particular type of player may try to keep things murky and obscured for their opponents, but even there I've seen more leniency towards WYSIWYG than in prior editions. I'm cool with that. I'd rather have my own miniatures build with best looking gear, dynamically posed and looking great. Does it really matter what gear does a squad of Aggressors pack on the miniatures, if I explicitly inform you they're running Boltstorm Gauntlets and Fire Discipline? Hard to forget the main threat, hard to get confused by Flamestorm Gauntlets glued on top od 1,5" tall plastic toys.
With the age of some GW minis, proxying and kitbashing is the easier approach. I ended up having to build my 3e Eshin rats (skirmishers with crit mortals) out of Plague Monks kits (shock melee infantry), and was always useful to explain what everything was to my opponent beforehand.
(not much of an issue for now with Eshin axed completely until their decades-overdue range update, but still...)