"Lying for the Lord" & Dishonesty in the LDS church
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2024
- Sandra Tanner shares, from her perspective, Mark Hofmann's legacy within the LDS church, and how his actions have effected Mormonism overall. In particular, Sandra highlights the concept of "Lying for the Lord" that exists within the church, and how this has been practiced by LDS church leadership since the days of Joseph Smith.
This excerpt is from Mormon Stories episode 1406 - “Sandra Tanner: Reflections on Mark Hofmann & "Murder Among the Mormons" Pt 2”
The full interview can be found at: • Mormon Stories 1406: S...
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#LDS #Mormon #PostMormon #ExMormon #MormonStories #Religion #Education
The Tanners were amazingly brave people. To be slandered and hated, but still made sure the truth was available to those who came looking. I have so much respect for them.
p👣👥
@@gomerpyle7721 What claims in particular do you find in the Old and New Testament to be troubling?
I owe this woman my freedom and my life.
Sandra and Jerald were really the ground breakers, and set the foundations for many to follow. They were reviled and vilified, but went forward undeterred. Many others have walked a similar path, be it only for their own lives, and often paid a heavy price for their actions. In the final analysis all we truely possess is our integrity. Love you Sandra 💖
Patty Kake... the Tanners will yet pay a price heavier than any mere mortal could put on them.
In the pre-internet age, the Tanners were an invaluable source of information on the LDS Church and their publication of original documentation was a priceless resource. Sandra still remains most helpful today. Thanks Sandra.
I met them at their home in the early '90s, very approachable folks.
The LDS leaders are being forced to address the obvious doctrinal discrepancies. But their approach seems disingenuous. Telling a half-truth is telling a full lie.
Agreed! Couldn't have said it better myself.
@@UnderstandingMormonism This really is the straw (or sledge hammer) that breaks many TBM mormons testimonies. Year after year you are told by the church that omitting facts in order to deceive another man is a lie of omission and is a temple question, yet then you find out they lie outright and by omission as a policy. So, you are not even worthy to be in the temple if you consistently lie, even by omission "are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?", yet they do the same thing as a systematic norm.
So when you as a super active super believing Mormon for the first time discover church leaders were actively lying to the public AND their own members continually either outright and by omission, the lightbulb finally turns on in your brain that the church leaders couldn't even answer the temple questions honestly, yet here they are judging you and expecting you to answer them honestly. Once the benefit of a doubt could no longer be given, that was the turning point for me...
A half truth is more deceptive than a total lie, and is the tool of all who are aligned with satan. God's prophet speaks: When you "lie for the lord," your "lord" is SATAN. And the latest version of satan worship is the Trump Death Cult and the Republican Party that supports it. The cult of personality is the church of satan, be that personality Joseph Smith, Adolf Hitler, or Donald Trump. And right-wing so-called "conservatives" will continue to find personalities to center their satan worship on in the future, which will eventually lead to the destruction of the United States. If you want to know more, seek and ye shall find. The prophesied return of Elijah has spoken.
@@tomrhodes1629 I got this guy who wrote a whole bunch of book on God. Said he saw him etc... but then I found out he killed a man before all of this. Wonder if anyone is willing to follow him and do what he says??
They are demons.
I've ran into Sandra Tanner at SLC International airport and got to talk to her for a bit. I thanked her for being willing to speak the truth even though it made her and her husband very unpopular in Utah. Really nice lady.
I often wonder just how many of my friends are having serious doubts but are afraid to ask questions and to leave.
Mormons do not know Jesus. If you were to just read the old testament and new testament you will see it is complete. Nothing to do with the book of mormon. The holy spirit, Jesus, and no rituals!
@@athomas9070 the Old Testament is literally full of rituals and then Jeus instituted a new ritual at the last supper. Also, the Bible is far from "complete." It is a collection of many smaller books (with many left out or changed) that were not all put together into one until thousands of years after they were written.
I assume there are many of them out there. I didn't know any who were questioning the church until I started to vocalize my questions to close friends and family. At that point a few family members and a couple friends would individually pull me aside and secretly tell me that they don't believe it anymore or at the very least have struggled with similar questions. They are so afraid that they will lose their spouses, or the respect of their relatives, or their close friends will no longer talk to them. It really is a fear based system. And they have fear for good reason. I made an appointment with my bishop as expressed my doubts and was released soon afterward. No attempt to help me with my concerns, just released me from my Gospel Doctrine teaching position so they don't have to worry about me saying anything in class (which I would never had done).
The last lines in this video resonate with me so much, "the members who decide to leave have to pay a heavy cost for this decision". I am still an active member who lost my testimony around a year ago. My wife still wants to go to church and raise our kids in it. My parents, siblings, and close friends are ALL active LDS. I can already see relationships beginning to drop off due to me being open about my questioning the church. People who I thought were friends and neighbors have been avoiding me for months.
Fortunately I was never a "social mormon" so losing the friendship of ward members does not effect me too much, but I can imagine how hurtful this can be to those who do need the community aspect of it.
The carnage that I and loved ones experienced from similar circumstances has been harrowing to say the least. Loss of spouse, job, family...💔
That's because it just a huge social club. Even when I was an active member of the club if I didn't keep my temple recommend current I could feel the judgement and was moved down the ladder in their eyes. That is not at all what Christ taught. He hung out with the sinners and the temple worthy Mormons at that time were called Pharasees and they tortured and killed the Son of God
@@pollydunn3191 yes, I know that is how it goes. If you don't have a temple recommend you MUST be doing some sin that is keeping you from it. I personally told my bishop that I could no longer pay tithing in good faith. There is no other sin or anything that I did, I simply refuse to pay tithing until I get some answers to my questions regarding the history of the church and some answers to my doctrinal questions that effect the validity of the church claims.
My bishop was like, "Well, I am not even going to try to answer church history stuff with you and if you send a letter to the First Presidency it will just get sent back sooooo". And so in the end all that talk about leaving the 99 sheep and saving the one lost sheep is all just rhetoric at the end of the day...........
When we couldn't pay our tithing because we had some debt we needed to pay off and I wasn't going to deprive my kids and pay tithing over taking care of them we had the bishop who came from a wealthy family and was a wealthy eye surgeon call us in to try to get us to pay. When we told him our situation he blurted out to me well you weren't born in the covenant. I asked him what he meant and he said the records showed my parents hadn't been married in the temple. I told him the records were wrong my parents had been married in the manti temple and what did that have to do with us paying or not paying our tithing. Even after that we stayed active in the church. I left years later after I ended up divorced in my 50s when I went to a Christian church with a friend and found the real Jesus that I had been missing my whole life
@@pollydunn3191 Wow, that bishop was way out of line to imply that you were somehow deserving of poverty due to the implied sins of your parents......
Sandra and Jerald are heroes! I always love to hear her take on things. Thanks for this interview. ❤️
I don't have time right now to see all six hours of the interview, so thank you for breaking it up into pieces. I'll get around to it soon, I hope. I can't say how important learning about Mark Hofmann was to me personally. I was 16 years old in 1991 and on a choir trip. We had stopped at Wal-Mart and since I always loved mysteries and true crime, I bought a copy of The Mormon Murders by Stephen Naifeh and Gregory White Smith which I saw on sale. That introduced me to the work of Fawn M. Brodie and the work of the Tanners. I had lost my testimony after reading Brodie as a 16 year-old, but I couldn't say anything about it. When I was 18, I went up to Salt Lake City for the summer and was able to drop by the Tanners' home before they moved the bookstore out of their front room. Thank you so much for interviewing her. Sandra Tanner is a treasure and these interviews are very important from a historical standpoint. Best of all, the work of Fawn Brodie and the Tanners saved me from going on a mission for the Mormon church.
The brethren are as honest as they need to be. I wonder what other goodies they have stored away in the church vaults because we all know for a surety they have and are with-holding information till this day.
Agree
#Respect for the Tanners ❤️
I love Sandra... she is so interesting to listen to and tells it how it really is. Thank you Sandra xxx
The Tanners rock….they truely bought/bring light and truth to people wandering in the mists of mind control and deceit. You both have my everlasting respect … 👌🏽👍🏽
The tanners are the real deal. Can't thank them enough for what they have done to reveal and keep those who are responsible, accountable for their perfidious behaviour.
Thank God for the Tanners early work in opening the eyes of many Mormons to the inconsistencies in the flawed history of the church. The church doesn’t want negative publicity. But through the Tanners’ courage against the odds and against a big powerful church they have educated Mormons and non Mormons to examine the facts. History often tells a story, and the story of the church is fraught with deceit and lies. Thank you Sandra and John. Always enlightening interviews.
Laws need to be passed to guarantee that professors at BYU receive their pension in full should they decide to leave to the church. No person should be fired as punishment for leaving the church. And the church should not be in the business of getting to approve who gets to teach at BYU. I know non Mormon students sometimes join the church to cut their tuition at BYU but after learning about the churches restrictions, high participation commitment, elders spying on your behavior and conduct, and tithing requirements, they decide that it is not worth the hassle.
John, I congratulate you for not interrupting Sandra.
This destroys families, I was the one shunned and not worthy to be around, simply because I never made it to the temple. I knew my bible and started noticing a lot wrong in the teachings and left the church .... Fast forward 40+ years... Dad died 7 years ago and mom was left all alone with no one but me.... I got her to finally pick up the bible I bought for her years earlier and read it, while I was pointing out to her the deception.... She finally realized and woke up and was angry that she and dad wasted so much time and money in the church, plus the fact that the church blew her off when dad passed .... She passed away 9 months ago, with a firm belief in Christ... I took care of both of my parents in the end and have no regrets... other family members have a lot of regrets, because they were not there for them.... Mom left me to be the Personal Representative of the estate, and I get to see just how evil two of my brothers really are throughout this process.... They still look down their noses at me and I simply said to both of them "Get thee behind me Satan", they looked like deer's under headlights.... I am worthy, and have always been worthy!
How wonderful that you were able to help your mother awaken to the Biblical Christ and gospel. ❤️🔥🙏 l too left and am being shunned.
May you be blessed in Jesus.
After the Podcast interview, I order their book about the Salamander Letter. Looking forward to reading more about this subject.
So great to hear! Sandra deserves all the support we can give her. Thank you, Lisa!
Lol came out not to be true 😂 good luck destroying the church guys lol
I love her stories! I never knew some of Mormon hiding. Thank you Sandra!
Why did Nelson stop himself when he was going to put his face in the hat? Because he new how ridiculous he would look.
That is just what I thought.
The Mormon Church should just go ahead and add Lying for the Lord as the 14th article of faith.
Lol. Yesss.
Excellent content, as always. Cheers John, Sandra.
Thank you for your support!
@@UnderstandingMormonism Always! I'm just waiting for the day when I can come out publicly and do even more :)
A temple recommend to work at BYU?! There has got to legal problems with that, and even if there aren't, there should be!
Rule number one inside LDS: “Never ever say anything negitive about Joseph Smith, even if it is the authenticated actions of a scoundrel.” You, a member of LDS, must NEVER admit to Joseph Smith being wrong about ANYTHING. LDS members WILL revier Joseph Smith as deity at ALL times. As such, the Prophet, Seer and Revelator of succession will do NO wrong, say NO wrong, and act NO wrong.
Rule number two: You will pretend to not notice there is nothing to substantiate the Book of Mormon as an inspired book. Even though there is no archeology, artifacts, written collaboration, or sociology to support the single source manuscript, you will speak reverently regarding the MIRICAL that it is. You MUST say it is the most correct of all books and never say that it has been changed over 4 thousand times.
Rule number three: You MUST declare LDS as a Christian nuance. You will NEVER speak of our doctrine where we believe Jesus is the literal son of god and his goddess wife begotten in the pre-existence, the brother of all spirits born in heaven in the premortal existence, one of 3 gods in the godhead, the Trinity is three separate gods, first one to receive a spirit body, atoned for sin on the cross and in the garden of Gethsemane, and was a polygamist, having 4 wives and several children.
This! Exactly, yes
Jesus had multiple wives?
@@eliedgecomb4903 No Jesus did not. LDS claims that He did. LDS worships their own brand of jesus.
Four wives? I only knew of Brigham Young asserting that he had three. Can’t tell you how surreal that was to read in a LDS sanctioned book in a church library.
@@tradne85 Though Young said that, in reality we know that is false.
Also.... this is what Islam and Mormonism have in COMMON! Aside from being false prophets, their leaders have lied to get their way. It is rooted in deception. Works works works, no righteousness. The word alone says His people are godly by their holiness and righteousness.
The fact that Mormon scholars were convinced that Hoffman letters were authentic shows how much credibility the old "anti-Mormon" had.
Sandra Tanner is expert in mormoinsm
Love of family should be. Stronger than religious affiliation
Thanks for this series John and Mrs Tanner. I was hoping for something more about Mark Hoffman back on the anniversary in October of last year. Well you delivered and then some I listen to every minute of it it was great. More than what I expected.
In January of 1987 when White Salamander was first published, Mark Hoffman led me down a 33 year long rabbit hole trying to learn the what's, why's and how's Mormonism came to be. From Sharon VT to the burned-over district to Kirtlan to Far West, Nauvo, SLC , " the crick " to Nelson and everything between. It was a journey consuming of 20+ books and historical tours in St George to BY's winter home and 2 visits to SLC and the beehive house etc.. I've studied every polig group including the USA, Canada & Mexico.
It was strange coming into contact with TBM and time and time again knowing more about the TSCC & church history and doctrine as a nevmo Jew. And here I am.
Some tried to convert me, I just giggled, "oh, I know too much about the church to join." Thanks again For. D.
RIP Kathy Sheet & Steve Christansen.
Mormonism... where honesty, truth, and personal integrity go to die.
I'm appalled at this situation with retirement! I had no idea!!!
Mormonism is about feeling not fact. The real refutation to Mormonism is the fact that many people in many religions have a “burning in the bosom” and these experiences are merely imagination not revelation.
Videos like this are so comforting. We’re all basically religious refugees bruh, I miss the comfort of life before realizing brainwashing like this existed. Too bad it was all a lie.
What I love about her is that she saw the lies and deceptions of the LDS Church, but never stopped believing in God and Jesus Christ. She is still a Christian and runs the Utah Lighthouse Ministry in SLC. czcams.com/video/iIvwQNftDc8/video.html
Good people.. Truth is in short supply in the LDS church sadly.
It’s literally selling your soul
What evidence convinced you to accept the supernatural claim that we have a soul ?
@@georgezeller6046 zero... it’s just an expression
@@christopher6082 Ramen
@Aaron Jess Nope. Quitmormon let the Mormon church know that our family does not stand with the churches racism, homophobia, misogyny, and lies.
Yeah, but as Packer, Oaks, and others have repeatedly advised, if you routinely jump up and say you "know the Church is true," at some point you should have even yourself convinced!
Apologists know full well that most members had no idea!! I was one in those until two months ago! They had no choice than to admit it.. They know that they will either pull the bandage off and let it hemorrhage or take it off a tiny bit at a time!
REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT
you've got to be out of your mind to be in this corporation
The church ended pension benefits for new employees 8 years ago, so the risk of losing that form of retirement is no longer an obstacle to apostatizing.
They interested in money more than be
Feed the poor. I quit going cause when they told me I couldn’t have endowment due to I never tithed. To me more interested in money. Also, they don’t need to build all those temples. Help the poor people.
“… most DANGERous haunt on Earth. Not fun. CZcams: Joseph Smith HORROR mansion”
The definition of God precludes lying in any form, so the church is admitting they're a fraudulent cult the minute they begin lying.
he changed his story 5 times he was lying . the whole thing is a lie
It’s not “ the church”, it’s the “Mormon church”. There are many churches.
Amazing how many people may leave the LDS church, but simply can't leave it alone. The Tanners have a long history of anti-LDS even well before the Mark Hoffman affair. Seems like you should interview people that are actual members, not former disgruntled ones with obvious biases.
The way BKP treated Leonard Arrington was appalling.
GOD the Eternal FATHER, & GODDESS the Eternal MOTHER knows, they refused/rebel to Repent from personal sins, & can't leave the CHURCH alone.
The Madsen's left? Ann and Truman were really good family friends of mine and I spent a lot of time with them. I had no idea that they left. Or is she talking about different Madsens?
No, Hans Mattsson from Sweden
@@sandratanner8149thank you for clarifying! I personally know one of Truman G. Madsen’s daughters and I was scratching my head when I heard Sandra drop that name at the end.
Find me a religion not lying constantly and full of scandals and predatory leaders.
Jainism
Shinto
Taoism
Confucianism
Buddhism (mostly, some notable exceptions)
Hinduism (once again, for the most part, certainly have their fair share of bogus gurus)
Rastafari
Zoroastrianism
Shamanism
Quakers
Mennonites (mostly afaik)
Probably a few others, I'd have to think about it some more.
Who is Sandra Tanner?
Her and her husband found out the church wasn't true, so they became a depository of all the information that the church tried to keep hidden from the 70's on. If you needed an answer to a historical document or question, the tanners were the pros, just by their own in-depth research.
They ran a bookstore in slc, and the church taught us they were apostates who taught lies.
Now you can read much of what the tanners exposed, the church has been forced to reveal in the essays. But those are pretty carefully not fully disclosed either.
Tanners are famous. Her husband Gerald died some years back.
Sandra never ages.
She is a great, great Granddaughter of Brigham Young.
She left Mormonism in 1959... but continued to believe in the BOM for a few more years. She and her late husband, Jerald, sold thousands of books on mormonism.
Her husband was almost alone in challenging Hoffman's work. Sandra handed out literature challenging Hoffman, despite the fact that Hoffman's documents undermined the church.
Ironically mormon scholars accepted them as genuine, as did Mormon leaders.
The Tanners were eventually vindicated when Hoffman was unmasked.
@@Thundersnowy Thank you for that explanation in a nutshell. The Tanners must have been courageous.
One more thing... I am so glad that BYU now requires professors to have a temple recommend, its about time! I went to BYU and hated professors who would teach against the church (members and non-members). These kind of professors made me sick, spewing their garbage of hatred, on my tuition dollars and also church funds!
If I worked for the Tanner’s in their book store and all the sudden I re-grew a testimony of the Church. And I started to proselyte for the Church in the book store, pointing out all the errors in their books (which are many and easy to do). The Tanners would & should fire me on the spot (and take away my pension if I had any)!
The ONLY good professors I had at BYU bragged about NOT having a temple recommend. They LOST those great professors when they put that dumbass abusive policy in place. Only idiots like you would find that to be a good policy.
William Davis - I agree with you. And you will find that the only people who will disagree and call you names are those who attended a religious university with no intention of getting anything out of the religion. What was their motive?
This church is wicked. Every part of your life is under the church’s control.awful.
I think she is wrong. Some are bothered by the deception. But that can be "justified" via "the ends justify the means". It can cause the shelf to sag, but may not break it. The absolute killer is the PROOF that the brethren do not have the power of discernment. In my circles, that was the issue: the PROOF that they are NOT prophets. It's semi-OK to lie for the Lord if they really represent the Lord. But they don't, because they PROVED they don't have the spirit of discernment.
If I left a church I would just say it wasn’t for me. But why waste your time
Because it is heretical and taking vulnerable individuals away from the truth.
"Lying for the Lord" - can we start with the B of M? Come on...
piledUP
Not so much different with the Roman Catholic Church
First you can start off by TRULY understanding that not one single biblical figure looks like any of you people 💯😄
O thou children of hell. Careful. It will be better for you to simply move on and find something to do, instead of disparaging The Church. Regardless of the details, ultimately The LDS Gospel is the only True one...any member/former member knows this when all alone late at night despite their public claims. Do your eternity a BIG favor and simply move on. God bless.
I thank God for saving me and getting me out of the lying Mormon cult.
This video was difficult to watch. John just worshipped every word that came out of her mouth. Get a backbone John, and ask some serious questions next time. You do this with members.
The Tanners have always been interesting people. They often contradict themself or say odd things. In the video above she stated that “People makeup documents because the Church is hiding their history”. Another odd statement from the Tanners. This statement makes you want to ask, are all their books in their book store made-up documents because the church is hiding their documents??? My head hurts!
The Tanners claim the Church hides their history. And yet the Tanners make all kinds of money selling Anti books pointing to so called “hidden church historical documents” that we all have access to, but are hidden. Now my head is going to explode!
In the NetFlix video, Tanner claims the church hid the salamander letters as a way to bury the truth. But then she stated that Hofmann made copies and sent them to others? So, other people had access to these letters when the church was hiding the letters, wait, what? BTW Church released copies of these documents months after they “hid them”, even went copies were already out.
Back in the day the Tanners pointed to the Hofmann letters proving the church is not true. But after we all learn its a forgery, then the Tanners change their tune. Leaders of the church are not divinely inspired, is the new claim by the Tanners. And now, years later the Tanners claim they knew all along the documents were forged. How convenient!
@@arianae6706 And I respectfully disagree with your assessment of John not having a backbone with any serious questions. Thats why it was difficult for ME to watch this interview!
Below was deleted somehow?
You make a lot of assumptions For example “It would seem also that Mr. Tanner did publicly question the validity of one of Hoffman's documents at the time.” Really? Did you get that assumption from Wikipedia? Let’s just say you’re correct. Why then did the Tanners make claims that the Church leaders were hiding documents that can hurt its core beliefs (not exact words). And yet the Tanners knew these documents were a forgery? Your own words just show how the Tanners are a walking contradiction.
Also respectfully disagree with your use of the word “thought” about church leaders (5 times). Always filling in the blanks of other peoples intentions. Can you really know other peoples intentions? Then make a conclusion that’s based on assumptions. This is a guiding principle of Anti-LDS. They fill in the gaps and call themself informed historians, and paint the Church as the Mafia.
@@user-jr7xk9su5n Truth hurts. The Mormon church has not been honest with its membership or the world in their pursuit for financial gain and control. Yesterdays anti Mormon lies are today's gospel topics essays.
@@user-jr7xk9su5n "Why then did the Tanners make the claim that the church leaders were hiding documents that can hurt their core beliefs, and yet the Tanners knew these documents were forgeries."
But the point is that the church leaders did NOT know they were forgeries. They treated them as real. So, if they had been they would have damaged the church.
The fact that the Tanners, almost alone, challenged a document ( the salamander letter) that could have harmed the church shows their integrity. Daniel C. Peterson acknowledges this.
@@arianae6706 I am very sorry you have to deal with such a heavy load. This pandemic has been very hard on many and it sounds like you and your small family are in the middle of it. Keep moving ahead and try to enjoy the brief breaks. My wife and I will pray for you and that little boy. I am sure you are loved by many, but this isolation makes us all feel alone, you included. Your Father in Heaven is well aware of your problems and is watching over you. Please take care and enjoy the smiles from your son.
@@Themanyfacesofego I understand your point and have understood this for many years from many of you (I don’t agree, but understand). You all live on a one-way street of understanding, please move!
So let me try to help you one more time. Tanners are walking contradictions. At the time of the letters, Tanners claimed the Hofmann letters where proof the Church is not true and the letters are damming to the members faith (not their exact words). Now the Tanners claim, they knew all along these letters were forgeries. So how can Tanners claim these letters are damming and yet they are a forgeries? Please re-read this paragraph until you understand my point (you don’t have to agree, just understand), than continue below:
But wait their is more! After we all knew these letters were forgeries the Tanners changed their tune. They now claim this was proof that the Leaders were not inspired. If they were prophets the Lord would have told them they were forgeries. So Tanners knew the letters were damming, but knew the letters were forgeries and knew the leaders were un-inspired. How convenient of the Tanners.
ONE MORE AND PLEASE KEEP READING: Tanners want you to think the Church treated these letters as real. THIS IS A LIE! President Hinckley said, at that time, he was suspicious of the salamander letters being a forgery, but for now they will respect the testing that was done to-date (not his exact words). WAIT, WHAT, the Tanners are lying to us?
I like how she took her straitjacket off for this interview.
The church destroyed my life w lies
And now, behold, who can stand against the works of the Lord? Who can deny his sayings? Who will rise up against the almighty power of the Lord? Who will despise the works of the Lord? Who will despise the children of Christ? Behold, all ye who are despises of the works of the Lord, for ye shall wonder and perish. O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Gather in the name of Jesus for what things sever ye shallstand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.
I'll follow the words of the Lord Jesus Christ as recorded from those who actually knew and walked with him. Not from those who admit that they haven't ever conversed with him face to face.
Why would somebody support the dishonest Sandra Tanner?
Life of fraud
The irony is that the intent of this video is in itself dishonest. The name of the channel itself is dishonest. This channel isn't focused on "understanding mormonism." The whole channel is a focused criticism of mormonism.
Constructive criticism.
Your Mormon apostle J. Reuben Clark said.. " If we have the truth then it will not be harmed. If we have not the truth it ought to be harmed.
Plainly Clarke's last sentence applies to what you are saying.
And again I speak unto you who deny the revelations of God, and say that they are done away, that there are no revelations, nor prophesies, nor gifts, nor healing, nor speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues; Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yes, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them. For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?
Hofman was a fraud and the church were victims. The core doctrines have remained the same yesterday today and forever and you know it. Stop succumbing to the advances of the devil. God loves and He speaks through a living prophet just as he has since the beginning of time. Follow his prophet, not the world and its lies.
Well, the "prophets" do nothing but follow the world, or rather money. Today's "prophet" is tomorrow's heretic.
John Dehlin left & can't leave THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS alone, (lack knowledge, & rebelliousness.
2 reasons, John Dehlin left & can't leave, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, lack knowledge & rebelliousness.
So much jibberish!!!
BOM is jibberish!!!
@@kevindickson2178 p
Bla bla bla. Two people saying nothing. Its obvious you don't agree with the mormon teachings so lets get passed this and move on to what you do believe in. What is YOUR religious views and beliefs.
What do you believe in?
@@rabbithole2015 after you
@@ralphriffle1126 I believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ and that He paid for my sin on the cross. I trust in His saving free gift of Grace and know I can't do anything to earn my salvation. It is a gift of God. My wife trust is in Him and Him alone. No lds temple neccessary.
@@rabbithole2015 its wonderful to hear we share the same faith
@@ralphriffle1126 So you aren't lds?
You people do realize you are criticizing Jesus Christ’s church right? .... criticizing prophets and apostles ?? Mind numbing...
you do realize that joseph smith was a con man right?
@@kevindickson2178 : Yeah buddy - I do now unfortunately.😔😔😔
The lds church is not the church of Jesus Christ.
Catchingpearls You do realise that the LDS church is based off lies of a con man?!? Do some actual research, the evidence is THERE, it’s actually very easily disproved! Go and look at mainstream Christianity. You will find history and truth and things actual scholars CAN explain!! Unlike LDS which is full of holes and lies. It’s mind numbing that you still believe in this crap with all of the info available.
there are King James Bible Version translation errors right in the BOM. the KJV was translated in 1611. the BOM is supposed to be a record of history 2000 odd yrs ago, give or take. how could these errors be in the BOM??