More of my videos are hitting the algorithm, which means more comments, which means more hate comments about the current run of the show, and I have no interest in letting that toxic echo chamber spread to these comments, so I've set the comments to require approval. If you've just come here to comment that the Timeless Children story doesn't fit the canon lore, even though I've demonstrated the contrary in this video, don't bother. As the Doctor said: "If you're going to deny it, don't waste my time. Just shut up."
What if the timeless child was the end of the Doctor without their memory? The Time Lords recharged him (Smith/Capaldi) and Capaldi Doctor said he's not sure how many times he'll regenerate. If they decide to actually end the show they could have him regenerate into the girl and fall through the gateway.
I’ve always like the idea that the Doctor tried to live each life to his fullest, as is shown by the melt down 10 started to have, but the Master just threw them away like candy and was on 13 by the time the Doctor was on 4.
I always got the impression that while the Doctor who to settle down and start a family, The Master was exiled and was a renegade tine lord long before and while The Doctor lived peacefully on Galifrey The Master got up to all sorts and burnt through most of his regenerations.
never realised how funny 11's regeneration is if you cut out the crack. Just looks like he regenerated out of spite for the Daleks talking about regeneration cycles
I love the idea of Missy being post Spy Master and knowing about the doctor being timeless child, but only giving one little hint to Clara. It seems in character for her to just mess with them like that but in a way only she understands.
@@shwenty1734 Shwenty is right. In the canon now, they confirmed that the Spy Master is after Missy. Everything is confusing. I think it would have been better if they made this clear in the show. Now Missy knowing about some things doesn't make as much sense, not that I liked the twist anyway.
They haven't confirmed any such thing. But the fact that she knows about the Timeless Child, and that the other child was herself (something the show itself has yet to reveal), while O doesn't know about that, suggests Missy comes after O. I think O is closer to the Tremas Master, because he was the one who attained a copy of the Key of Rassilon and infiltrated the Matrix.
The idea of The Timeless Child is not a bad one whatsoever. It would explain how The Time Lords came to be, and how they are able to grant The Master and The Doctor an extra cycle of 12 regenerations, because they decide what limits are put in place and can clearly change these at will. The ONLY problem I have is that the Doctor SHOULD NOT be the timeless child. It completely takes away so much of the weight of past iterations, past death experiences, past pains etc.
How in the world do you rationalise that? If the Timeless Child were to be someone else, there would be no point in doing the story at all. It enhances the Doctor, it doesn't take anything away
@@PenneySounds How can you not rationalise that? The doctor being the timeless child means there's practically no stakes, no death, no danger and no threat to the character we are following That's how characters and ultimately show's begin to stagnate The hero's journey trope that everyone is taught in school explains that without stakes there isn't growth or consequence Only stagnation I mean how boring would a piece of media like Star Wars, or even games like Fallout be if you knew 100% that the character you follow/play as won't go through anything meaningful or in opposition to the character Without stakes like that show's like this lose viewer's The timeless child being the doctor is like trying to take a myth or legend, and then add another myth or secret super hidden legend into it It's overkill
@@philswiftdestroyerofworlds1988 Everything you just said is no more valid now than it's been since regeneration was introduced in 1966. Regeneration doesn't mean the show has no stakes.
@@PenneySounds I disagree. The Doctor was limited to 12 regenerations and so each lethal encounter and subsequent regeneration brought him/her closer to a final death. Now that the Doctor is "far more than any other time Lord" with seemingly unlimited regenerations the stakes have definitely been lowered. If you like the timeless child story, that's all good but it just feels like a misstep to me.
@@GuapoLechuga That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. As if there was ever any chance that the Doctor was going to have a final death. And I don't see you complaining about Capaldi's incarnation existing
In the end, I prefer the Doctor to be just a renegade Time Lord with secrets of history their society never wants the universe to learn or else it will unravel the very fabric of reality. So we don't know who they are or every reason why they ran, to the point their mind can't and won't remember it because they rather move forward and help the universe their way. Still, the show has always liked to dance around this topic a lot
@@MichaelO2000 okay that is a problem of definitions so i think the best example is thus: a duck finds a blujay all by itself and brings it back to the rest of it's flock, all the members of the flock take the bluejay's shed feathers and stick them to themselves and start calling themselves blue eagles, the first bluejay forgets it was a bluejay and starts calling itself a blue eagle instead question: are they a blue eagle? answer: yes and no, no in the sense that they were born a bluejay and did nothing to change their biology or physiology, but also yes in the sense that blue eagle is a chosen name (like all names) and they chose it
You can be born in one country and have different nationalities so why can't the DOCTOR be raised as a so called TIMELORD who are just the rich lot of GALLIFREY (even ROBIN HOOD knew that)
While I do think the Timeless Children story works generally, I do think that William Hartnell not being the first "Doctor" is kinda meanspirited, even unintentionally. It is a big trend nowadays to delete what came before when people get their hands on the property.
@@PenneySounds I don't think that is possible. The comics apparently parroted the intention of what they were going with the story and confirmed the Fugitive Doctor as one of the first incarnations. But, maybe something will change their mind, but that would shaft the comics division as they were said to be part of the true canon. I guess we just have to stay tuned for that new special or whatever Davies has planned.
The comics and audios are just guessing at this point. But the Fugitive traveling in a police box TARDIS places her after the scene where Clara's afterimage directs the First Doctor and Susan to a very much not yet police box TARDIS
@@PenneySounds Oh definitely, but what is intended is not always what makes sense. Recent media has taught me that quite harshly. Hopefully you are right.
Don't get me wrong I know that none of this stuff is actually hints of the "Timeless Child", they were just hints at the mystery of "The Doctor" but it is an interesting and well thought out bit of research. Good spot on the fact that "Shobogan" was not first mentioned during the Masters speech in the Matrix. I did not catch that before.
Several of the hints were originally written to be past incarnations, the morbius doctors were originally meant to be past incarcerations of the doctor (with the twist being that 4th doctor was actually the 13th) and the plan for the 7th doctor was to reveal that they were a reincarnation of the other, a timelord who worked alongside omega and rassilon to create time travel, regeneration and timelord society. Most of the timeless child was just taking those loss plot threads and finishing them (although way more in line with the 80s plan than the 70s one).
No i'm going to get you wrong. 11 was around 900. Yet a previous doctor accidentally said "thousands of years" while none of these clips were hints leading to 13s run, 13 did explore the story from all those pieces of info making it seem like it was hinted at. It would make sense if it was 1 writer who planned it for years, but all the little pieces of info was hinting at what would be a story about the timeless child. Its just wether they would tell it or not
@@SpiderPanda Three indicating that he had been a scientist for thousands of years, and Seven indicating that he was more than just an ordinary Time Lord can't have been them hinting at the Timeless Child, because neither of them *knew* about the Timeless Child. Seven was hinting at something (the unrealised 'Cartmel Masterplan'), but that reveal would've been different to what became the Timeless Child reveal. The difference in ages between Three and Four is presumably just a continuity error (which Moffat later tried to handwave away as another instance of 'the Doctor lies'). The Timeless Child reveal doesn't contradict established canon. It also doesn't line up well enough with these instances for them to be specifically foreshadowing that reveal.
@@SpiderPanda Was it ever really confirmed that 11 was around 900 since Nine also said he was 900. In my opinion the Doctor's either lying about his age or he forgot his age.
@@nathanmurdoch5253 Yeah, it's clear that sometimes the Doctor just forgets their age and decides to just continue counting from some random high number, while other times the Doctor just sorta decides to restart the count because so much has changed or whatever. Like, the age in New Who seems to be consistent as long as it started during the Time War.
This kinda made me accept the timeless children SLIGHTLY more The origin of gallfirey makes sense but I juts dislike how, the child is the Doctor and not the master..i mean it would make more sense The Masters histroy is so wonky he literally comes back for no reason
Hopefully the upcoming special will reveal the part everybody seems to be missing: the fact that there were two children. But it would make zero sense if the Doctor wasn't one of those children. It's the whole point of the story.
here's my headcanon (which I definitely will make cannon if/when I get to write DW): Ruth's the Timeless Child. She finds out, decides to take down Gallifrey in revenge, possibly helps Daleks in the Time War, fails because of the Doctor, gains hatred towards her, pretends to be the Doctor, alters the Matrix, convinces the Master the Timeless Child is the Doctor, tricks him into destroying Gallifrey, cloaks herself as human to avoid detection, jumps in the action when she gains memory, already has a TARDIS look like the Doctor's to sell the illusion, and, ultimately, wins.
@@anatine_banana_69 Ruth was a fictional character made up by the Doctor to hide as using a chameleon arch, just like John was, so I assume that by Ruth you mean the Fugitive Doctor, in which case yes, she is the Timeless Child, because she is the Doctor.
These aren’t subtle hints, it’s just re-contextualising good writing. “Such a lonely childhood” gives us so much about the Doctor’s background and how this can be later reflected upon by their choices and motivations
I adore the idea of the Doctor getting occasional flashes, just moments, where they say something that implies they are older or more important than even they know. Like the memories are just out of reach. Hell, Seven may have known outright, but lost the knowledge across the several bouts of amnesia he would experience in his Eighth incarnation.
The 7th doctor definitely knew something about it, maybe not the whole story, like how they supposedly knew of the time war in some ways but then forgot about it post regeneration due to the amnesia caused by the delayed regeneration affecting his memories.
@@charlestownsend9280 During 7 they were working on revealing the Doctor as 'The Other', but that idea got scrapped for the new series, and we were better off because of that. And the age of the Doctor was always a bit wishi washi and few writers cared, didn't 10 give 11 some sass for fudging their age in a special?
What I want to know now is how powerful is the Doctor's Daughter, Jenny. She was never given a limited batch of regenerations. She's the same species that the Doctor is and has the capacity for infinite regenerations.
actually, i recently rewatched the episode, and she actually doesn't regenerate at all, the terraforming device is what healed her. if you look at her pseudo-regeneration scene, the light that comes out of her mouth isn't the same bright gold regeneration energy we see coming from the doctor on any of his regenerative occasions, it's the green/gold of the terraforming device's gases. i hope we do get an answer to this, though. maybe if georgia moffett ever wants to stop doing big finish audios, we can get an answer.
but the the chameleon arc have been used on the doctor before he lost all that memory. A chameleon arc rewrites your biology so it could be that the doctor’s DNA was rewritten from a Timeless Child into a time lord.
The Timeless Child is two ideas in one - one I like, one I don't The Doctor's Past life - I really like this. The Doctor having a past life they don't know about is particularly exciting, and it further adds to "Doctor Who?" We no longer know all their faces, where they're from, even their species. But their core identity, their development from Babby Hartnell to now, remains totally intact. The Doctor is the first Time Lord - unnecessary, but easily ignored.
@@PenneySounds Technically the child might be the very first Time Lord. I mean yes, it's quite speculative at this point, but it is presented very much that way in the Master's narration. The Master tells the Doctor within the Matrix, that the Shobogans altered themselves using the child's DNA as a template (the child is a Time Lord prototype of sorts). Then they are shown in a scene presenting themselves in those fancy robes as a "new species" renaming themselves - Time Lords. Sure, we don't really know, how much they altered themselves to match the child, but it's safe to assume, that they simply made enough alteration to become close to her physiology (perhaps the Shobogans had only one heart, while the child had two and they got the second heart for the regeneration to work on them?) - to become like her. Whatever species the child was/is, the altered Shobogans (Time Lords) basically became through her DNA template. So it is pretty safe to call the Doctor (the Timeless Child) being the very first/original Time Lord.
My problem is where Jo Martin's Doctor fits in the time line. As i have said before , the Police box version of The Doctors time capsule did not exist BEFORE Totters Yard ( episode one) ....As it arrived on ancient earth in episode two , William Hartnell's doctor was suprised at the Police box shape sticking as a police box and realised the chameleon circuit had, failed for the first time. Susan explains this to Ian and Barbara at the beginning of episode two...So the only way Jo could arrive in a policebox is , if it came FROM THE FUTURE. But please correct me if i am wrong....
I favor the idea that just like "John Smith" dreamed of being the Doctor, the Doctor still has vestigial, confused memories that accidentally come out. And Seven remembered the most clearly.
@@PenneySounds Not really. Most of these ways it fits are coincidental, and not even made for the timeless child arc at the time of their writing, it's not like some of the other compilations where things were planned before they happened. Just because it "fits" in some way doesn't mean it isn't divisive.
It means that the reason it's divisive is because some people simply hate the show and are willing to make up any nonsense they can use to justify that.
@@PenneySounds Personally i find it annoying not because i dislike the idea of The Doctor being the Timeless Child, but because by this retcon ( retcon doesnt automatically mean bad) the end of The Time of the Doctor has a lot less gravity, and that just happens to be one of my favourite moments in the show. Still, im intrigued to see if the writers backstep due to the backlash in an attempt to recover or double down to make it more accepted.
Been watching a lot of the 7th Doctor (and just recently the Silver Nemesis), and they were eventually going to reveal that the Doctor was the reincarnation of this ancient Time Lord figure who lived at the same time as Omega and Rassilion and was very important. Then it got cancelled. But I think this might have been a callback to that. The look on David Tenant's face, though, during his scenes--like he forgot some of his memories. Like he didn't know that happened. And the fact the 1st Doctor ran away from Gallifrey with his granddaughter--the Doctor was always running. Because they knew something was wrong.
The original intention was that the Doctor become the Other, a mysterious third figure in Rassilon and Omega's trinity, a Crassus to their Caesar and Pompey. Cartmel didn't want the details to come out and didn't think about it, it was Platt and Aaronovitch who did. Eventually the novel Lungbarrow in 1996 gave us details on the Other, and basically said he and the Doctor weren't even the same person, more like the Doctor's MAYBE a reincarnation, and that the Doctor was raised by a patriarchal figure to be some sort of next Rassilon, but the Doctor rejected that to become their own person; not a statesman but a bohemian renegade. The Other's contributions were also deliberately left vague to the reader, so for all we know he had nothing to do with regeneration, which other sources said was Rassilon's discovery till now, though that could be propaganda. The Timeless Child was just Chris Chibnall answering that, even though he had no involvement.
I really like that Jodie Whitaker's "flashback blast" into the Matrix at the end included "The Brain of Morbius." I missed that. That's really cool. It's such a weird and oddly dark moment in "Morbius," and it's fitting in that moment.
It does feel a lot like the Timeless Child comes from the Cartmel Masterplan, which was an aborted story arc that was being written during the Seventh Doctor's run. It's maybe what Chibnall hooked into when writing the more recent arc; the examples from the Seventh Doctor here are from that plan.
@@PenneySounds Cartmel specifically said he didn't like it because he hadn't envisaged specifically what the Doctor's past life was and only dropped those hints to create mystery, since the show had lost that since the War Games in his mind. The Other was largely Platt and Aaronovitch's brainchild. He never said his dislike came from the way the Doctor's past life was portrayed.
I do like the idea of The Timeless Child, it explains a lot and gives the time lords both a logical backstory and adds a darkness to them they that lied and exploited a child this entire time. I just feel like it would have worked better had it been the Master instead of the Doctor. If it was the master it would explain so much of their torment, would explain how they were able to defy the regeneration limits and keep on living as a corpse or ooze or a snake, and I think it would justify his anger towards gallifrey more and why he nuked it. I still wouldn’t mind the Doctor having some higher gallifreyan importance in their backstory as perhaps one of the most important time lords in gallifreys past with some mysterious important role, but I think the timeless child itself would have been better being either the master or a new time lord we hadn’t yet met
You know, I'd never considered how much having the Master as the Timeless Child could work. It would explain how the Master is still around even after being hit by a blast from the Laser Screwdriver that supposedly would prevent Missy from Regenerating. (Though I am still a little disappointed that they just undid Missy's character development)
What if Master is just the set of Doctor's lives, but the one that despises him for whatever he did as part of "the Division" or whatever timelord taskforce was called.
It's an interesting idea. What if both the Master and the Doctor are the Timeless Children? It would not only help explain the Master's abilities to defy the regeneration limits and possess other people's bodies and it would go well with the series 12 episode 10 title: The Timeless Children. With this idea, you begin to wonder, how long have the Master and the Doctor being at odds with one another? Were they always at odds? Were they lovers at some point? Plus, this kind of thinking adds more weight to the Master's decision to destroy the Time Lords and Gallifrey. I doubt this is what the writers were going for. But this idea could be added while Ncuti Gatwa is the Doctor.
When watching classic Who as a kid, I always felt the Time Lords had this big secret they were keeping, and was always left disappointed that it would never get explored. Even though it gained a mixed reaction, I respect Chibnall for trying to give people like me that eventual payoff. As soon as I saw the faces from Brain of Morbius flash through The Doctor's mind, I knew he was going for a very specific kind of fanservice, and even if it wasn't for everyone, I enjoyed every second.
I totally agree. While it's difficult, and inevitably unpopular, for a show like Doctor Who, which has been going on for 60 years and aims to go on forever, to authoritatively answer any questions or close any overarching plotlines, the idea that the Time Lords are a highly corrupt society with some undermining secret has been hinted at for a very long time
@@wkkqewqaver7766 My favorite part of the Morbius movie was when Doctor Micheal Morbius said "I'll always remember when it was Morbin time." and then regenerated into a new Doctor incarnation.
I honestly like this crazy secret. The doctor is immortal being, used by a people ensure they would forget all of their lives. I love that the faces in morbius are actually doctors before the “first” and makes you wonder when will the doctor become the valeyard, curator and others. I love the timeless child story.
I'd be genuinely surprised if the Master wasn't revealed as also being a timeless child, it would simply explain too well how he survived too much stuff
@HOTD108_ there's moments where he shouldn't have been able to walk Like when the 10th doctor confronted the time Lords before regenerating He disappeared with the time Lords and never to be seen again only for us to see him later with 13 and missy And I haven't watched enough of the classic Doctor who but I'm pretty sure that there are loads of times that he shouldn't have walked
I could see it also being as simple as when they were kids the doctor did something to the master to sorta elevate them as equals back when they were best of childhood friends before/at the start of the drums but also them just being the ying and yang of timelord gods
I'd like to point out that the name of the episode that revealed that The Doctor was the timeless child was actually called "The Timeless Children." No matter how many faces they've had, The Doctor is still a singular being, so the episode title using the plural form of the word, "children," suggests that The Doctor may not have been the only timeless child. The episode title may have been a clue that there's more to the story. Considering that The Doctor and The Master were the only "children of Gallifrey" (as the Time Lords referred to them in "The End of Time: Part 2") featured in "The Timeless Children," I'd say it's possible that The Master is also a timeless child. If The Doctor and The Master were both timeless children who came from somewhere other than Gallifrey, that could also help explain why they go by titles rather than their names unlike other Time Lords. Rassilon, Tecteun, Gat, Goth, Morbius, Omega, and Borusa all went by their names while renegades like The Doctor, The Master, The Rani, The War Chief, The Monk, and The Corsair all go/went by self-given titles. Perhaps the difference in the naming conventions could be because the latter group were all timeless children who more or less rejected their Gallifreyan names. The latter group all being timeless children could also explain why those characters all left Gallifrey. The planet may never have felt like home to them.
It seemed obvious to me that multiple versions of the story should have been made in advance, appropriate versions to be shown to whoever discovered them. Certainly The Master would have been kicked into dramatic action by the "discovery" that he was the one and only Timeless Child that made Time Lord civilization what it became. And as others have pointed out here, there could have been multiple Timeless Children...
I don't personally approve of conflating Chiball's Timeless Child concept with the Cartmel Master Plan, but I do concede they're largely compatible besides the Doctor clearly retaining some knowledge of being The Other but not the Child and the iffy choice to mark regeneration as the event/discovery sparking the creation of Time Lord society as opposed to being something engineered after time travel technology/the Anchoring of the Thread.
The Other was never established. Foreshadowing was done but the final concept wasn't revealed, so there's nothing wrong with tweaking what that final concept would be
The Timeless Child is an interesting plot development for the show to take, and I like aspects of it. The Time Lords have always been kinda fake, so establishing that the whole regeneration thing isn’t even theirs is a pretty cool idea… however: the episode realises this concept in a pretty mundane way, the Master just sorta explains all the new lore to the Doctor, who is then outraged that they lied, despite always thinking the Time Lords were bad people? I don’t see what this really adds to the show, other than now we can bait future series finales with reveals about all the new mystery boxes. I’m interested to see how the show plays this going forward, I don’t think it ruins the Doctor necessarily, but it plays into the new series thing they keep doing where the Doctor is like, the most important person ever, an idea I’m not a massive fan of. We’ll see what happens next I guess. I’m just glad there are people who enjoyed this episode out there. I’m sure never watching it again.
"The Doctor was the first Time Lord" isn't a new series thing. That was intended as a reveal for the *Seventh* Doctor, had the series not been cancelled/gone on hiatus.
I think the idea that regeneration a is a product of the time vortex is a contradiction with the timeless child reveal, which would mean it was retconned to be basically a lie by the timelords to cover their crimes.
That's how it was in the novels and the audios, but Time Lords were explicitly stated to be a race in the show, until "Listen" went with the novel version and described it as a rank. "The Timeless Children" again tries to reconcile this by saying it's BOTH. That Time Lords are a race of genetically altered Shobogans, as well as being the elite of Gallifreyan society. Their species is Time Lord.
I honestly thought that The Timelords giving The Doctor a new set of regenerations was just a thing they decided to do. but they actually have done/offered it before with The Master. I feel way less upset about them breaking their own rules now.
That line is muddled though by the audio dramas, which reveal that the Bruce Master didn't actually die, leaving us to wonder when it was he died in order to be resurrected
More then that, they would have created a paradox if they didn't: The Twelfth Doctor (14th regeneration) showed up during Day of the Doctor and called in to Gallifrey. The Time Lords knew that the Doctor gained more regenerations in the future, so they had to give him some to prevent time from breaking.
@@jackganger-spivak5160 Except they wouldnt have known it was his 13th regeneration as there where only 13 doctors there, a timelord pulling a 10 was not something they foresaw even with all there power
Never realised that part of Hell Bent revealed he once was a little girl... wow. That's made series 12 look a bit better now. Then again it can be easily said that the Doctor was messing about and knew exactly what Clara was thinking because knowing Missy/the Master they would have used that joke before and the Doctor knows it
True, but it's not the only time 12 expressed some gendery stuff when reflecting on the past. When he told Bill about Missy, he said, "He was a man back then. Pretty sure I was, too," with a puzzled look on his face. There was definitely some heavy hinting during his tenure that the Doctor used to be female at some point. Of course, they could have just been implying that 1 was a trans man, but I feel like it was more of a regeneration thing
Even if it has been hinted at throughout the years, I still feel like it's a stupid idea. Personally I feel like it solves only a few questions and opens up a million more, and not the fun, speculative kind. If they wanted to add a timeless child, I feel it could've been anyone else. The Master, Rassilon, even The Rani! Making it The Doctor feels disingenuous to the feel of the show, making them not just a space hobo, but "THE MOST IMPORTANT CREATURE IN ALL OF TIME!!!!" It could've worked well. Really well. But it's so clear that they had no plan going into the series other than setting up plot threads to figure out later on. (Chibnell literally said in an interview that he had no plans for where it would go!) And then there's that little chat in Revolution of the Daleks, Ryan telling The Doctor that "things have to change because they have to so we should just deal with it" A scene that feels so patronizing and frankly INSULTING to the fans who have stuck by this series for close to 60 years. God I feel sorry for RTD, having to follow up with an explanation for this. But hey, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just out of touch and this is actually a "new beginning" for the series. Fine. But in my eyes, this just seems like a rushed, overly-complicated fanfiction trying to answer the question that should never be answered.
It's the greatest contribution to the series lore in decades. It ties together so many dropped plot threads, and fills so many plot holes that previously existed. You're just looking for a reason to hate it. The Doctor has never been an unimportant "space hobo", and nobody ever claimed she was until "The Timeless Children" aired. Before that, he was "The Last Of The Time Lords" and "The Lonely God" and "The Oncoming Storm" and we were all fine with that. Suddenly we get elaboration on the dropped plot threads of the Cartmel Masterplan, and everybody's going "Making the Doctor special ruins the show!". Come on.
@@PenneySounds But when he was the oncoming storm or the last of the timelords or the lonely god it was to set something up, or it was made by his actions, y'know? It was his reputation, not the universe revolves around her. Also what dropped plot threads are they anyway, I can't bring to mind any. Surely it makes less sense because the 'shobogans?' are actually 'gallifrayns?' so what, do they just have two names
Shobogans aren't a new concept The Doctor has always been someone exceptional who has made a bigger impact on the universe than anyone else ever. Nothing has changed there. We just now know more about why.
@@PenneySounds exactly, we're introduced as then being gallifrayans, but they can't be, gallifrayans are, who is the dude refering to when he speaks the the 4th Doctor? And it doesn't explain why they made a bigger impact than anyone else, half the point is he denied his origins, ran away in a blue box to have adventures, key point being ran away
@@PenneySounds like I said, it's just my opinion. You can like it if you want, that's fine, I just can't stand it myself. Personally I think that the Time War was a greater implemented contribution that makes the Doctor more important in a way that feels earned. Again, just my opinion. 🤷♀️
I tried looking this up to understand what was going on in The Wild Blue Yonder. This is clearer than the wiki article I read, thank you 60 years of backstory is a lot to go through
I mean the show is so long you could pull clips to justify anything. I don't think the timeless child was planned since before Chibnall. Before him the show was always purposefully vague and for a good reason. The speculation is always better than the answer.
@@PenneySounds I think its like the Weeping Angels. They were the most badass in Blink, but when we learned more about them in the Flesh and Stone & Time of Angels two parter, they kind of lost their allure, no?
@@PenneySounds But that "mystery is better than the answer" is literally Chibnall's approach and motivation for this entire story. That's why he's confirmed we won't see any closure on the Fugitive Doctor.
@@connormainwaring8866 No. Moffat made them even scarier. In their first appearance, the way to fight the Angels was to look at them. In their second appearance, we're told that if you look at them, you become one.
the stuff written for old who was supposed to be teasing that the doctor was actually a reincarnation of one of the founders of the time lords called "the other" who threw themself into the regeneration pools. but the storyline was never finished so most of the clips were ignored. Chibnall tried to continue that plot thread but for some reason didnt do the same storyline hence the strange lore jumble that is the timeless child
One of the biggest clues to The Timeless Children is that the Doctor's name is the universe's most important secret. Like, if he was just some random Time Lord, then why is his name so important when the other Time Lord's names aren't important? It wouldn't make sense, unless he isn't just some random Time Lord, but the one that started the Time Lords.
i really like the idea of the timeless child, having the doctor lose their sense of identity right after capaldis solidly accepted it is a really cool concept. but i think the execution has been lackluster, although the arc isnt complete yet so its too early to make a full judgement call. i just hope Russel does something interesting with it instead of retconning it or ignoring it.
@@paleoleft Possibly still is, since we don't know what the Child is. All we know is she was found next to a giant pink portal just like the one through which the remnants of the Human race escaped the Cyber War.
@@Alistair-gi3bx But it was the Master who said it, and then the Doctor said it without knowing that the Master had said it. Then years later, Lady Me said it. That's corroboration
I find it hysterical that now we know the Doctor has (afaik) unlimited regenerations, at Trensalore the Time Lords probably weren't giving the Doctor more regenerations, they likely just shot him discretely and if anybody asked "hey, wasn't that the fire button?" they'd just shrug and say it mustn't have been because he regenerated, didn't he?
@@PenneySounds okaaay. I guess I'll try to break down my reasoning. 1. the Timeless Child isn't limited to 12 regenerations, that was a Time Lord edition. 2. The Doctor is the Timeless Child, therefore the above applied at the time of the Trensalore arc closing out Matt Smith's run. 3. While the Doctor didn't know he could regenerate, and thus held on for as long as he could, when he died he was always going to regenerate. 4. The Time Lords who we thought gave the Doctor new regenerations (Rassilon confirms we don't know how many in Hell Bent) must actually have just triggered the Doctor's regeneration process manually. 5. The regeneration process is triggered by dying. Hopefully that's a bit clearer.
Tecteun's regeneration limitation was applied to the Doctor as well. The Doctor was unable to regenerate on Trenzalore, because his ability to regenerate was, in the TARDIS interface's exact word, "disabled". He still had regeneration energy, but could not initiate the regenerative process because of the limitation. The Time Lords lifted the limitation, as they had previously done with the Master. Regeneration isn't triggered by dying. If a Time Lord dies before regenerating, they stay dead. The Time Lord has to initiate the process consciously. They can even refuse to, as the Master did.
@@PenneySounds I do enjoy how the Tardis put it, too. I initially assumed that regeneration being "disabled" was the work of the poison, but in the context of the Timeless Child arc, it really is a sit-up-straight moment. Like.. yeah, it was disabled. Like, on purpose. By a meddling party...
@@PenneySoundswait what? Regeneration is completely voluntary? I know Time Lords can initiate it when they want, and decide against it when they want. But that it doesn't happen once they die unless they want it to is new to me
I feel like that Morbius clip is the strongest piece of evidence of the timeless child for classic who. Although I feel like it was legitimately hinted at with Missy and Clara
well that’s too bad because it isn’t. The characters that are seen pre Hartnell were intended to be faces of the Doctor but before he started travelling the universe and these faces were faces the Doctor completely knew about. This also does connect to the original script of the Power Of The Daleks where the second doctor was supposed to open a compartment in the console unit that revealed memorabilia and photographs of pre hartnell regenerations. But due to this not being shown it is debated whether or not it is canon. As for the “Morbius Doctors” those were assumed to be faces of Morbius as it wasn’t actually revealed to who they belong to as both Morbius and the Doctor are Time Lords.
@@apersonandaperson They definitely weren't the Doctor before he started traveling. All those incarnations are seen wearing different periods of Earth clothing. Yes, it wasn't intended at the time that the Doctor didn't know about these past faces, but that aspect resolves the contradiction between "The Brain of Morbius" and both "The Three Doctors" saying the First Doctor was the "earliest", and "The Five Doctors" saying the Fifth Doctor was the fourth regeneration. It absolutely was revealed they were the Doctor's faces and not Morbius' faces. It's explicit in the scene.
@@PenneySounds We see William Hartnell’s doctor wearing the same outfit he usually would on Gallifrey while stealing his TARDIS which means there Earth clothing present on Gallifrey. It actually wasn’t revealed that those past faces were the Doctor’s it is only implied as Morbius does say “How long have you lived” Even the writers don’t point out who they belong to. It is only implied that it is the Doctor’s but seen as though the Doctor does defeat Morbius during the Mind Bending that means at some point the Doctor gained hé upper hand implying the Doctor wanted to see past incarnations of Morbius therefore implying those faces belong to Morbius.
I remember seeing The Brain of Morbius as a little Whovian and I remember very well how many excited conversations there were with school friends about it's implications. But a regeneration does have a way of muddying the waters of continuity and we all moved on with the fifth. But it's stayed with me all this time. So to me, as a child of old Who, TTC arc is a gateway to so many possibilities, and what with it being in RTD's hands again, well I've had my love of the Doctor reinvigorated. And this video has helped a great deal. Thanks for sharing.
So does this retcon the previously established lore that Rassilon and Omega invented regeneration and time travel? And that Gallifery was a matriarchy? Because we have seen the women that used to rule Gallifrey (before they were banished) help The Doctor regenerate into the war doctor. Also I could be wrong but I thought that the 12 regeneration limit was artificially imposed by Rassilon because he was/is a bit egomaniacal and thought he was the only one worthy of true immortality. If the Doctor is the timeless child why did Rassilon and the Timelords have to grant him more regenerations if The Doctor is the original source of the power to regenerate?
I interpreted it as Rassilon taking credit for Tecteun's work. That's very in-character for Rassilon, who would apparently erase entire Time Lord families from history in order to further his own power. When Tecteun and Division disappeared to do their thing outside of the universe (as seen in Flux), Rassilon took over Gallifrey and essentially rewrote their history to imply it was all him. Omega complains about his achievements being usurped by others in The Three Doctors, so it's likely Rassilon did the same thing to him as well.
I am _not_ upset about there being a secret origin for regeneration. In fact, I think it's funny that the Time Lords essentially appropriated regeneration from another species. I'm just a bit iffy about the Doctor being involved in this origin. The Doctor doesn't care for Time Lord society, they don't deserve that burden.
I think the fact that the Doctor doesn't care for Time Lord society is just another reason why this reveal works so well. We've always known that the Doctor and the Time Lords stand apart, the Sixth Doctor's speech at the conclusion of his trial says it all really
I also think the Timelords stealing regeneration works. We know they stole Archron energy and were given time travel. I wouldn't be surprised if they stole TARDISes too. Hell, the TARDISes might be a separate species with a symbiotic relationship to Timelords. I'm willing to let future writers sell me on the Doc actually being a new species. One funny side effect of that, though, is that the Master really is the best Timelord to ever live. They really are the winner, lmao
@@PenneySounds He most likely wont, as lots of things have come up proving that the next season will be like another soft reboot, swiping everything off the table to get a clean start. there might be some callbacks to it here and there though. So Chibnall better tie it up nice!
It's amazing how the Timeless Child links into a bunch of old things. Seventh Doctor apparently was able to access some of the memories of the Timeless Child.
That or just straight up knew/worked out what they didn't remember. The Time Lords had a chance to deal with that during the Time War. Also Eight's amnesia to the point he thought he was half-human
@@carrot708 Ah, I see what you're saying. Yeah maybe. I kind of think of it as things the Doctor would think and say and not know really why he was thinking or saying them.
Tom Baker was the fourth incarnation of Doctor Who. And he was the model from which all other Doctors after him were fashioned from. So have a jelly baby.
Tbh it was kinda scary seeing the doctor except his end at first no plan to cheat no way of getting out he was fully ready to die until he got a new chance and made it so he could have another go
Speculation (in response to a lot of the comment threads here): The child, who becomes the Doctor... is a future incarnation of the Master, thrust back to that exact point in time and space in that exact form. Nobody understands either of them like each other - because they ARE each other.
while i dont think the timeless child is as bad as the hybrid revalation being the reason the doctor ran away originally, i really think the actual timeless child episode doesnt do the reveal any favours by having like 3 episodes happening at once, like a cyberman x master where cybermen invade gallifrey story, the companions fighting cybermen alone, and then timeless child. I feel like this makes the reveal not have enough time to show the doctors feelings and real impacts and then the next episode and then season is just the doctor learning over and over again who they are. Sacha Dhawans master honestly makes it up for me tho, i absolutely adore his performance. Like hes so desperate for the doctors attention and rage at him because he knows that his biggests fears were true and that hes less important and isnt better than her. it makes the scene where he makes her kneel in spyfall so much more interesting like hes grasping at anything to feel better than the doctor.
I find his performance a bit... twitchy. Makes me think of Zack Snyder's interpretation of Lex Luthor. But I can accept this version of the character so long as he comes before Missy, not after.
I like that you've put this all together, but most of it is referring to other accounts of the Doctor's origin not the Timeless Child. Lots of stuff I didn't even consider though.
The usage of the word hint in the title very much is not the word i'd use. I'd def more so consider it "timeless children connections". Hint implies it was all planned out from the very beginning which is not the case considering how many different writes and people have contributed to the lore and the show.
excellent compilation! Really well done here, it shows the thought that went into the timeless child arc, which I feel truly adds depth to the show. [ I hope the doctor will look into that fob watch . . . ]
Oh my word. I have watched the show from Day One. My father worked on the show, then I worked on the show.Then I tried to put the colour back on lost episodes. Then I watched the new show with my kids. Never have I seen the structure of the Dr's life more clearly. Yes - it really does all fit. Bravo !
It's because of all the people who worked on it putting so much care into it over the last 6 decades. Chibnall just connected all the dots and showed us a bigger picture.
@@PenneySounds Absolutely. I am privileged to have been a small part of it. During the dead years I felt like I was alone ( almost ) with my love for the show. Now look at them !
It was cancelled when I was 1 year old, so half my life was the dead years. And I live in Canada, where the show was basically unheard of, even though the 1996 movie filmed in the city I currently live in. So when it came back in 2005 (with the help of the CBC in fact), I'd only ever heard the name of the show once or twice and knew nothing about it. First episode I saw was "Boom Town". I can tell you the exact second I fell in love with the show. The Doctor: "Ricky, let me tell you something about the human race. You put a mysterious blue box slap bang in the middle of town, what do they do? Walk past it. Now stop your nagging, let's go explore." Me: "I'm going to be a fan of this show for the rest of my life." And this was the same year that Star Trek was cancelled, again. I grew up with Star Trek and it was foundational in my worldview and ethics. A couple short years later it was rebooted in this dumbed-down lowest-common-denominator version, which is just disgraceful and depressing to see. So Doctor Who took the place of Star Trek for me as the thing that fires my imagination and gives me hope for the future.
@@PenneySounds I like you ! :-) Oddly, Star Trek is the show that the BBC transmitted when Dr Who was on holiday. The episode with the Gorn was the first to be shown here in the UK - a very bad start. I have watched all of Star Trek ever since too. I have great hopes for the new chap Ncuti ( Shooti )
Star Trek and Doctor Who have a weird history. It's like they can't exist at the same time. Like both at once is too much awesomeness for the world to handle. Doctor Who started in 1963 Star Trek started in 1966 and fizzled out after just 3 years Star Trek comes back to TV in 1987 Doctor who is cancelled just two years later in 1989 Star Trek has a massive run of 4 separate shows, then is abruptly cancelled again in 2005 Doctor Who comes back the same year It's kind of spooky. Makes me worry that we'll never see proper, non-rebooted, non-dumbed-down Star Trek again unless Doctor Who gets cancelled. Have you seen the Star Trek video I did? I made it specifically to give people who've never seen it before an entry point to get into it. czcams.com/video/rD29-lSwdoc/video.html
It's really cool that you found all the ties that justify the episode, but I still think it could have been executed better. Preferably, I'd have the Doctor be Tec-te-un. Have it so that they experimented on themselves, so that keeps the Timeless child backstory, but doesn't discount a much more fascinating origin for the Doctor; the idea that they are ultimately responsible for the Gallifreyans' pretentiousness and war mongering over control of time. That's my opinion tho
...So you would be happier if the Doctor wasn't the character who was abused, tortured, and enslaved, but the one who was abuser, torturer, and enslaver?
@@PenneySounds Well, I just said that they would experiment ON THEMSELVES. By merging Tec-te-un and the Timeless Child into one character, that eliminates all three of those implications. Because the would-be Doctor wouldn't have abused anyone but...well, themselves. It's in their _complicit_ involvement with how Time Lord society evolved from that point on that would cause some contention. The rationalization behind that school of thought is that it would provide reason as to why the Doctor set out on their journey to help and heal the universe. They're grief-stricken in the part they played in hurting the universe and are making up for it by spending the rest of their lives protecting it. Because the way I look at it, a reveal around the Doctor being the arbiter of regeneration on its own...doesn't morally challenge the character in a way that's interesting, it would just feel like another part of backstory tacked on, as opposed to a backstory that gives the Doctor villainous roots that they worked hard to leave behind or even repress. I also get that the entire season was building up to that reveal and thus showed abuse, torture, and enslavement, which I say adds to why I think this reveal could have been thought through better; could it have been reworked so that the flashes of torture were glimpses into Gallifrey exposing their young to the Schism? Could that have been reworked to imply it as the result of Tec-te-un's research? I'm spitballing here and I'm in no way hating on the episode. What's canon is canon and I'm glad you're combing through the show to support it; I'm just discussing my opinion.
@@PenneySounds Wait are you seriously trying to say you'd rather the doctor was the one you'd rather had been tortured and bruised? Yes I'd obviously rather anyone other than the doctor What the hell are you smoking There were a lot of evil souls on Gallifrey even before the time war What in your right mind makes you think this kind of character, would deserve anything like that? I'd rather it not happen at all
@@philswiftdestroyerofworlds1988 The Doctor having experienced suffering is not new. It deepens the character. Intentionally causing suffering would undermine the character.
I like to think that the Doctor has no true origin story: As time is constantly being reset, details about the universe are adjusted all across space and time. The Doctor was a normal Gallifreyan child. And they were The Other. Then they were the Timeless Child. They were all of them. Sometimes they're thousands of years old, sometimes only recently broke 2 millennia It also explains how humans can never remember if aliens are real: the story keeps changing :)
I don't know if I would include Smith's regeneration as something that fits with the Timeless Child reveal, since the Doctor is clearly dying in that scene (regenerates the moment that he gets "given a new regeneration cycle"). It doesn't directly contradict the Timeless Child reveal or anything, since you can rationalize it and come up with excuses, but it's not a great example of continuity in my opinion.
It's a perfect example of continuity. Because without The Timeless Children, that scene would conflict with the previous scene where the Doctor still had regeneration energy to give River. Now we know that regeneration energy is unlimited, but Tecteun made it so the regeneration process can only be initiated a certain number of times. A limitation that can be lifted.
Part of me believes that the reason The Timeless Child arc wasn't received well was cause Chibnall wrote it. I loved the concept of it and believe that it perfectly fits in with everything else, but feel as though it should have been implemented with much better stories. Here's an analogy for this. If I gave the same joke to 2 kids (The Popular Kid and The Weird Kid), people would laugh harder when The Popular kid said the joke, cause he knows how to deliver his jokes unlike the Weird kid whose delivery will be bland. In this analogy Chibnall is the Weird Kid, eventhough he's the one who actually made the joke in the first place. Just my worthless 2 cents on this matter.
The reason is people decided for political reasons to hate whatever Chibnall ended up coming up with the moment they saw that he casted a female Doctor
@@PenneySounds Yeah, that's there too. This sentiment was mostly prevalent in reviewers like MrNerdrotic and others similar to him. Rather than giving proper criticism, they would give personal attacks directed at Chibnall and Jodie. I am glad I stopped watching that clusterf#ck of an a$$h0le when i identified his motives
I've twice approved your reply to this comment but CZcams refuses to show it to me here so I can reply to it. But yes, I know what you mean. As someone who opposes the rebooted version of Star Trek and Disney's Star Wars sequels, it's very frustrating to have the conversation on those issues dominated by CZcams incels like Nerdrotic who oppose them for all the wrong reasons.
None of these really hint at it... These clips can work and did work without the context of the timeless children. You're seeing what you want to see. Some of these are jokes not to be taken seriously but now you can fit them into this narrative.
@@PenneySounds they were confirmed not to be the Doctor many times before. This debate has been over since some less-informed fans tried to use it as the baseline argument for TTC.
@@OptimysticPessimyst "We tried to get famous actors for the faces of the Doctor. But because no one would volunteer, we had to use backroom boys. And it is true to say that I attempted to imply that William Hartnell was not the first Doctor." -Philip Hinchcliffe
Ive been with this show since Troughton/Pertwee, a HUGE fan and I thank you for the time taken in putting this explanation together. The revelation of the Timeless Child was a little clunky when realised in the show but this video, trawling the canon to find the continuity definitely sheds a great deal of light. It doesn't make complete sense but heck, this is scifi... and RTD is back with a gay, black performer as our next Doctor. Very excited to see where it goes. And thank you
Ok but can someone please explain why if the doctor has unlimited regenerations why do the time Lords give him more at the time of the doctor surely he would have been able to regenerate anyway?
Thank you for taking the clue of the Missy's speach to Clara !! I never see it when people put the timeless children on fire without regardless to the clue of the other seasons and incarnations of the Doctor. Big ty
Personally I just love how much the Timeless Child arc adds so much more Mystery to The Doctor. But to be honest, ever since the revelation in the Doctor Who movie back in 1996 where 8th says he's half human, on his mother's side and people became outraged by it. I don't know what people want from this show if not just a bit of mystery behind The Doctor but I liked this twist and I really hope it is revisited at some point. Especially since the Fobwatch is still deep within The TARDIS containing The Doctor's Timeless Child genetics and memories.
I love the idea that missy is post spy master purely cause it means the masters final (please just let them die) incarnation finally got to be the doctors friend again
I like this video. It's been yrs since I've watched the old school doctor who before the 9th. When he said his age I thought to myself I swore he was older. This video cleared it up for me. I don't have a problem with the timeless child. I just wish we got more
Thanks for this video. It’s sad, I liked the idea of the Timeless Child as a big overarching concept that could bring something fresh to DW, I just feel its a shame that Chibnall didn’t really do the whole thing justice. I’m curious to see where RTD takes things now. Tell you what though, if he brings back Omega, I shall personally seek the man out and give him a great big hug!!!
It was the BBC who didn't do it justice. They gave us like half the screen time we should have gotten over the last 5 years. Not enough time to tell any story, let alone one this big. Fortunately it doesn't have to end. It's cemented in the lore now.
@@PenneySounds The issue there tho is that the Morbius episode never explicitly said that those faces belonged to the Doctor. It was the writer or producers belief at the time and since then it's been contradicted
@@WELSHGAMER99 Except the Morbius episode absolutely 100% DOES explicitly, unambiguously, and indisputably say those faces are of the Doctor's past incarnations. I included the clip. Morbius literally screams "BACK! BACK TO YOUR BEGINNING!". There is absolutely no way to interpret those faces as belonging to anyone else.
My guess is that the ppl who kidnapped amy spliced the timelord genetics into rivers embryo so she got regeneration, hence being harder to kill and more equipt to kill the doctor
I'm just a casual new who fan and I loved how you put what used to be discontinuity plotholes together into a clear and cogent explanation of how/why Timeless Child actually built on the existing show lore.
So there is a lot of backlash against this, but I just like it. The doctor was never going to die in the first place, also regeneration can still be interrupted, it's not like the doctor is truly immortal. And any and all danger was mostly about his companions in the first place. I imagine every 12 cycles they would remove his memories to ensure that the doctor would be none the wiser, ensuring both their own safety as well as that of the doctor because the doctor would surely be targeted if the truth was known. It also does not take away from the first doctor William Hartnell at all. Because the doctor was a promise, a vow. William Hartnell will always be the first doctor the true doctor the original you might say.
I did not like The Timeless Child arc when it hit, but it does seem that it has been pretty strongly hinted at since at least Matt Smith's tenure, and it's clear that there was a long running implication that the Doctor lived more lives before the First Doctor took the TARDIS. Honestly I think my biggest issue with it at this point is that it still leaves a lot of unanswered questions (especially for a storyline that is kind of portrayed as containing "answers" to old plot holes), but obviously unanswered questions can be expanded upon in the future. I think the only detail that still bothers me is the "being from another universe" bit. Mostly because I just personally don't like the idea, but also because the story could have been executed without the Doctor being from another universe- there's no real change in stakes between the timeless child coming through a portal to another universe vs. just being some anomaly from our own. At least, as it stands, it removes a lot of the Doctor's identity of being a time lord- though I guess there's no reason they couldn't also just be a time lord equivalent from their parallel universe. Honestly though, I just kind of hope they don't retcon it. It does work, even if it isn't personally my favorite. RTD coming in to retcon it would be extremely cheap- and if they really believe the current audience hates it so much, they should just leave it alone for a while until some new writer wants to take it up again a few Doctors from now. Also, either way, thanks for this video- it does a lot to cement that the Timeless Child story wasn't just something that sprang up out of nowhere.
Another good hint is from Human Nature & Family of Blood with all the voices coming from the doctor's watch including several female ones. At at times a bunch of overlapping ones. Likely from past regenerations since they mingled with his own. And would say to keep them hidden and safe.
Originally during the 7th doctors era they were going to reveal he was a member of the trinity of founders of time Lords, I don't like him being the source of regeneration so if they had to make a twist where there was more to his past then we thought I'd prefer the original where he's important but not the only one.
This retroactively makes Time of the Doctor better, because even though it's justified in the episode, it always seemed random that they imbued him with more regenerations at the end. It seemed to come from nowhere. Now...we know why. Because he's the first Gallifreyan. The Timeless Child. He needs to keep going for Gallifrey to prosper. Without The Doctor, there is no Gallifrey. It wasn't an act of kindness, it was an act of selfishness.
I always thought it was because he managed to save them in a parallel pocket universe & End the time war, in the episode right before “the day of the doctor” let alone being a former president
@@PenneySounds The effects of the poison disabled his ability to regenerate. Then Melody cured him with her own regeneration energy. And how would the Time Lord Council know of this, regardless? Really, the fact that he suggested regeneration here is a slip-up of the writers. The Doctor should have believed that he was at the end of his regeneration cycle.
You could do one of these with the Doctor not liking endings. That's come up a fair bit. First Doctor painfully leaving Susan, not wanting to part with Ian and Barbara; Second Doctor I'm not sure; Third Doctor avoiding Jo's departure; Fourth not actually saying goodbye to Sarah; Fifth's trauma at Adric's ending; Sixth doesn't have much unfortunately; Seventh and Mel mostly; Eighth and Ninth not sure; Tenth has plenty; Eleventh has plenty; Twelfth has plenty; Thirteenth has them too, like her difficulty confronting the concept of a terminal illness with Graham, or her comment about wanting to time travel to have more time with Ryan and Graham, or just in Legend of the Sea Devils where she wishes she could travel with Yaz forever.
Even way back in Classic Who and the expanded universe, it was heavily implied that Rassilon 1) stole the regeneration ability from somewhere else; and 2) it was granted to Gallifreyan priests and early Time Lords through gene splicing. Time Lords that graduate from the Academy are granted the third strand of TNA and the Rassilon imprimatur that allows them to regenerate. One legend had it that Rassilon stole the regeneration ability from the Great Vampires (and became a Great Vampire himself.) So yeah, this isn't new. It's also not a new idea that the Doctor is an ancient being from another universe that had a past with the early Time Lords and had their previous lives erased from both the record and their memory. Hell, the Seventh Doctor "New Adventure" novels all but outright state/show the Doctor is an eldritch abomination that is *heavily implied* to be Nyarlathotep and simply took on a Gallifreyan form way back when. Anyway, people thinking that RTD, a Virgin New Adventures writer, is going to retcon away the Timeless Child arc when it's a major homage to the myth arc in that novel series will forever be hilarious to me.
interesting how the doctors past has always been so ambiguous but when it becomes canon that there is still so much we don't know about the doctor, people complain imo the timeless children brought some ambiguity back to the character, moffat clarified and solved a lot for us - the doctor's name especially covered with the name/time of the doctor and also picked up in 12s final speech, it gives us some clarity as we can now apply these strange statements about the 3rd doctors age and the 7th doctor but still create a mystery out of it, not one with immediate intention to solve
Beautiful picture and content edits. Sound mixes are difficult but really make an edit come alive. Excellent back story support ! Re watching her seasons - again - I can now see the very high quality of everything. Quite how I missed this before I don't know.
More of my videos are hitting the algorithm, which means more comments, which means more hate comments about the current run of the show, and I have no interest in letting that toxic echo chamber spread to these comments, so I've set the comments to require approval. If you've just come here to comment that the Timeless Children story doesn't fit the canon lore, even though I've demonstrated the contrary in this video, don't bother. As the Doctor said:
"If you're going to deny it, don't waste my time. Just shut up."
Love your videos!
Great idea!
@ If you've got examples I haven't included here, please share
Thank you for posting this video. I love when stuff “makes sense” in The Who world. Huge fan!!! 😄
What if the timeless child was the end of the Doctor without their memory? The Time Lords recharged him (Smith/Capaldi) and Capaldi Doctor said he's not sure how many times he'll regenerate. If they decide to actually end the show they could have him regenerate into the girl and fall through the gateway.
I’ve always like the idea that the Doctor tried to live each life to his fullest, as is shown by the melt down 10 started to have, but the Master just threw them away like candy and was on 13 by the time the Doctor was on 4.
I always got the impression that while the Doctor who to settle down and start a family, The Master was exiled and was a renegade tine lord long before and while The Doctor lived peacefully on Galifrey The Master got up to all sorts and burnt through most of his regenerations.
never realised how funny 11's regeneration is if you cut out the crack. Just looks like he regenerated out of spite for the Daleks talking about regeneration cycles
I love the idea of Missy being post Spy Master and knowing about the doctor being timeless child, but only giving one little hint to Clara. It seems in character for her to just mess with them like that but in a way only she understands.
She's not
@@shwenty1734 Shwenty is right. In the canon now, they confirmed that the Spy Master is after Missy. Everything is confusing. I think it would have been better if they made this clear in the show. Now Missy knowing about some things doesn't make as much sense, not that I liked the twist anyway.
Everything about the master is always confusing
They haven't confirmed any such thing. But the fact that she knows about the Timeless Child, and that the other child was herself (something the show itself has yet to reveal), while O doesn't know about that, suggests Missy comes after O. I think O is closer to the Tremas Master, because he was the one who attained a copy of the Key of Rassilon and infiltrated the Matrix.
@@earthman5363 that makes Spymaster the third time the master should have died and still regenerated
The idea of The Timeless Child is not a bad one whatsoever. It would explain how The Time Lords came to be, and how they are able to grant The Master and The Doctor an extra cycle of 12 regenerations, because they decide what limits are put in place and can clearly change these at will. The ONLY problem I have is that the Doctor SHOULD NOT be the timeless child. It completely takes away so much of the weight of past iterations, past death experiences, past pains etc.
How in the world do you rationalise that? If the Timeless Child were to be someone else, there would be no point in doing the story at all. It enhances the Doctor, it doesn't take anything away
@@PenneySounds
How can you not rationalise that?
The doctor being the timeless child means there's practically no stakes, no death, no danger and no threat to the character we are following
That's how characters and ultimately show's begin to stagnate
The hero's journey trope that everyone is taught in school explains that without stakes there isn't growth or consequence
Only stagnation
I mean how boring would a piece of media like Star Wars, or even games like Fallout be if you knew 100% that the character you follow/play as won't go through anything meaningful or in opposition to the character
Without stakes like that show's like this lose viewer's
The timeless child being the doctor is like trying to take a myth or legend, and then add another myth or secret super hidden legend into it
It's overkill
@@philswiftdestroyerofworlds1988 Everything you just said is no more valid now than it's been since regeneration was introduced in 1966. Regeneration doesn't mean the show has no stakes.
@@PenneySounds I disagree. The Doctor was limited to 12 regenerations and so each lethal encounter and subsequent regeneration brought him/her closer to a final death. Now that the Doctor is "far more than any other time Lord" with seemingly unlimited regenerations the stakes have definitely been lowered. If you like the timeless child story, that's all good but it just feels like a misstep to me.
@@GuapoLechuga That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. As if there was ever any chance that the Doctor was going to have a final death. And I don't see you complaining about Capaldi's incarnation existing
In the end, I prefer the Doctor to be just a renegade Time Lord with secrets of history their society never wants the universe to learn or else it will unravel the very fabric of reality. So we don't know who they are or every reason why they ran, to the point their mind can't and won't remember it because they rather move forward and help the universe their way. Still, the show has always liked to dance around this topic a lot
It's nice cause being the timeless don't erase the fact that the doctor is still renegade timelords lol
@@gay4sswhovian but it does erase that fact... the doctor being the timeless child makes them not a timelord, you didnt think that one through
@@TimeMasterOG They ARE a Timelord though. They are the first timelord.
@@MichaelO2000 okay that is a problem of definitions so i think the best example is thus:
a duck finds a blujay all by itself and brings it back to the rest of it's flock, all the members of the flock take the bluejay's shed feathers and stick them to themselves and start calling themselves blue eagles, the first bluejay forgets it was a bluejay and starts calling itself a blue eagle instead
question: are they a blue eagle?
answer: yes and no, no in the sense that they were born a bluejay and did nothing to change their biology or physiology, but also yes in the sense that blue eagle is a chosen name (like all names) and they chose it
You can be born in one country and have different nationalities so why can't the DOCTOR be raised as a so called TIMELORD who are just the rich lot of GALLIFREY (even ROBIN HOOD knew that)
While I do think the Timeless Children story works generally, I do think that William Hartnell not being the first "Doctor" is kinda meanspirited, even unintentionally. It is a big trend nowadays to delete what came before when people get their hands on the property.
As long as the Fugitive Doctor is a season 6B Doctor, then the First Doctor still is the first Doctor
@@PenneySounds I don't think that is possible. The comics apparently parroted the intention of what they were going with the story and confirmed the Fugitive Doctor as one of the first incarnations. But, maybe something will change their mind, but that would shaft the comics division as they were said to be part of the true canon. I guess we just have to stay tuned for that new special or whatever Davies has planned.
The comics and audios are just guessing at this point. But the Fugitive traveling in a police box TARDIS places her after the scene where Clara's afterimage directs the First Doctor and Susan to a very much not yet police box TARDIS
@@PenneySounds Oh definitely, but what is intended is not always what makes sense. Recent media has taught me that quite harshly. Hopefully you are right.
The Brain of Morbius shows regenerations before Hartnell's Doctor.
Don't get me wrong I know that none of this stuff is actually hints of the "Timeless Child", they were just hints at the mystery of "The Doctor" but it is an interesting and well thought out bit of research. Good spot on the fact that "Shobogan" was not first mentioned during the Masters speech in the Matrix. I did not catch that before.
Several of the hints were originally written to be past incarnations, the morbius doctors were originally meant to be past incarcerations of the doctor (with the twist being that 4th doctor was actually the 13th) and the plan for the 7th doctor was to reveal that they were a reincarnation of the other, a timelord who worked alongside omega and rassilon to create time travel, regeneration and timelord society. Most of the timeless child was just taking those loss plot threads and finishing them (although way more in line with the 80s plan than the 70s one).
No i'm going to get you wrong. 11 was around 900. Yet a previous doctor accidentally said "thousands of years" while none of these clips were hints leading to 13s run, 13 did explore the story from all those pieces of info making it seem like it was hinted at. It would make sense if it was 1 writer who planned it for years, but all the little pieces of info was hinting at what would be a story about the timeless child. Its just wether they would tell it or not
@@SpiderPanda Three indicating that he had been a scientist for thousands of years, and Seven indicating that he was more than just an ordinary Time Lord can't have been them hinting at the Timeless Child, because neither of them *knew* about the Timeless Child. Seven was hinting at something (the unrealised 'Cartmel Masterplan'), but that reveal would've been different to what became the Timeless Child reveal. The difference in ages between Three and Four is presumably just a continuity error (which Moffat later tried to handwave away as another instance of 'the Doctor lies').
The Timeless Child reveal doesn't contradict established canon. It also doesn't line up well enough with these instances for them to be specifically foreshadowing that reveal.
@@SpiderPanda Was it ever really confirmed that 11 was around 900 since Nine also said he was 900. In my opinion the Doctor's either lying about his age or he forgot his age.
@@nathanmurdoch5253 Yeah, it's clear that sometimes the Doctor just forgets their age and decides to just continue counting from some random high number, while other times the Doctor just sorta decides to restart the count because so much has changed or whatever. Like, the age in New Who seems to be consistent as long as it started during the Time War.
This kinda made me accept the timeless children SLIGHTLY more
The origin of gallfirey makes sense but I juts dislike how, the child is the Doctor and not the master..i mean it would make more sense
The Masters histroy is so wonky he literally comes back for no reason
Hopefully the upcoming special will reveal the part everybody seems to be missing: the fact that there were two children.
But it would make zero sense if the Doctor wasn't one of those children. It's the whole point of the story.
yea me too i honestly i kind of ignored that plot a bit
here's my headcanon (which I definitely will make cannon if/when I get to write DW):
Ruth's the Timeless Child. She finds out, decides to take down Gallifrey in revenge, possibly helps Daleks in the Time War, fails because of the Doctor, gains hatred towards her, pretends to be the Doctor, alters the Matrix, convinces the Master the Timeless Child is the Doctor, tricks him into destroying Gallifrey, cloaks herself as human to avoid detection, jumps in the action when she gains memory, already has a TARDIS look like the Doctor's to sell the illusion, and, ultimately, wins.
@@anatine_banana_69 Ruth was a fictional character made up by the Doctor to hide as using a chameleon arch, just like John was, so I assume that by Ruth you mean the Fugitive Doctor, in which case yes, she is the Timeless Child, because she is the Doctor.
@Penney Sound yeah but@@anatine_banana_69 is saying Fugitive isn’t the Doctor but rather faking to be Doctor
That line from the Master will never not be epic: “Renamed themselves with characteristic pomposity the Time Lords.” ❤❤❤❤❤
These aren’t subtle hints, it’s just re-contextualising good writing. “Such a lonely childhood” gives us so much about the Doctor’s background and how this can be later reflected upon by their choices and motivations
It can be both honnestly especially considering how much RTD liked that idea
@@gay4sswhovianWhat idea?
@@HOTD108_ the timeless child idea, which will be a recurring theme for the upcoming series
Time can be rewritten... and re-contexualised 😅
I adore the idea of the Doctor getting occasional flashes, just moments, where they say something that implies they are older or more important than even they know. Like the memories are just out of reach. Hell, Seven may have known outright, but lost the knowledge across the several bouts of amnesia he would experience in his Eighth incarnation.
The 7th doctor definitely knew something about it, maybe not the whole story, like how they supposedly knew of the time war in some ways but then forgot about it post regeneration due to the amnesia caused by the delayed regeneration affecting his memories.
I find it so funny that the 8th lost his memories do many times that he forgot something as important as that XD
@@matteosignor4256 Don't forget, if you go by the movie, then the Doctor is half-human, not full Time Lord.
@@charlestownsend9280 During 7 they were working on revealing the Doctor as 'The Other', but that idea got scrapped for the new series, and we were better off because of that. And the age of the Doctor was always a bit wishi washi and few writers cared, didn't 10 give 11 some sass for fudging their age in a special?
@@larsg.2492 And if you go by the rest of 8's stories that was a trick.
"I'm much too old to be a Pioneer, although I was once, among my own people" - The Fist Doctor, The Daleks
What I want to know now is how powerful is the Doctor's Daughter, Jenny. She was never given a limited batch of regenerations. She's the same species that the Doctor is and has the capacity for infinite regenerations.
Could also be argued that she has a limited amount or pool of regeneration energy inherited from her fatherclone
actually, i recently rewatched the episode, and she actually doesn't regenerate at all, the terraforming device is what healed her.
if you look at her pseudo-regeneration scene, the light that comes out of her mouth isn't the same bright gold regeneration energy we see coming from the doctor on any of his regenerative occasions, it's the green/gold of the terraforming device's gases.
i hope we do get an answer to this, though. maybe if georgia moffett ever wants to stop doing big finish audios, we can get an answer.
but the the chameleon arc have been used on the doctor before he lost all that memory. A chameleon arc rewrites your biology so it could be that the doctor’s DNA was rewritten from a Timeless Child into a time lord.
That would mean the Doctor is a fake persona created by the chameleon arch
@@PenneySounds ooh, that's a spicy theory right there!
The Timeless Child is two ideas in one - one I like, one I don't
The Doctor's Past life - I really like this. The Doctor having a past life they don't know about is particularly exciting, and it further adds to "Doctor Who?" We no longer know all their faces, where they're from, even their species. But their core identity, their development from Babby Hartnell to now, remains totally intact.
The Doctor is the first Time Lord - unnecessary, but easily ignored.
The Child isn't exactly a Time Lord, but was a slave of the Time Lords
@@PenneySounds Oh absolutely - I just simplified it there.
@@PenneySounds Technically the child might be the very first Time Lord. I mean yes, it's quite speculative at this point, but it is presented very much that way in the Master's narration. The Master tells the Doctor within the Matrix, that the Shobogans altered themselves using the child's DNA as a template (the child is a Time Lord prototype of sorts). Then they are shown in a scene presenting themselves in those fancy robes as a "new species" renaming themselves - Time Lords. Sure, we don't really know, how much they altered themselves to match the child, but it's safe to assume, that they simply made enough alteration to become close to her physiology (perhaps the Shobogans had only one heart, while the child had two and they got the second heart for the regeneration to work on them?) - to become like her. Whatever species the child was/is, the altered Shobogans (Time Lords) basically became through her DNA template. So it is pretty safe to call the Doctor (the Timeless Child) being the very first/original Time Lord.
My problem is where Jo Martin's Doctor fits in the time line. As i have said before , the Police box version of The Doctors time capsule did not exist BEFORE Totters Yard ( episode one) ....As it arrived on ancient earth in episode two , William Hartnell's doctor was suprised at the Police box shape sticking as a police box and realised the chameleon circuit had, failed for the first time. Susan explains this to Ian and Barbara at the beginning of episode two...So the only way Jo could arrive in a policebox is , if it came FROM THE FUTURE. But please correct me if i am wrong....
@@Croftice1 might not even be a Time Lord I might have some other name who knows
I favor the idea that just like "John Smith" dreamed of being the Doctor, the Doctor still has vestigial, confused memories that accidentally come out. And Seven remembered the most clearly.
I really like that idea too
Despite the Timeless Child arc having a divisive outcome, this is one helpful compilation.
The people who are making it divisive want it to be divisive, so a compilation showing it fits canon perfectly won't change their minds
@@PenneySounds Not really. Most of these ways it fits are coincidental, and not even made for the timeless child arc at the time of their writing, it's not like some of the other compilations where things were planned before they happened. Just because it "fits" in some way doesn't mean it isn't divisive.
It means that the reason it's divisive is because some people simply hate the show and are willing to make up any nonsense they can use to justify that.
Agreed
@@PenneySounds Personally i find it annoying not because i dislike the idea of The Doctor being the Timeless Child, but because by this retcon ( retcon doesnt automatically mean bad) the end of The Time of the Doctor has a lot less gravity, and that just happens to be one of my favourite moments in the show.
Still, im intrigued to see if the writers backstep due to the backlash in an attempt to recover or double down to make it more accepted.
Been watching a lot of the 7th Doctor (and just recently the Silver Nemesis), and they were eventually going to reveal that the Doctor was the reincarnation of this ancient Time Lord figure who lived at the same time as Omega and Rassilion and was very important. Then it got cancelled. But I think this might have been a callback to that. The look on David Tenant's face, though, during his scenes--like he forgot some of his memories. Like he didn't know that happened. And the fact the 1st Doctor ran away from Gallifrey with his granddaughter--the Doctor was always running. Because they knew something was wrong.
The original intention was that the Doctor become the Other, a mysterious third figure in Rassilon and Omega's trinity, a Crassus to their Caesar and Pompey. Cartmel didn't want the details to come out and didn't think about it, it was Platt and Aaronovitch who did. Eventually the novel Lungbarrow in 1996 gave us details on the Other, and basically said he and the Doctor weren't even the same person, more like the Doctor's MAYBE a reincarnation, and that the Doctor was raised by a patriarchal figure to be some sort of next Rassilon, but the Doctor rejected that to become their own person; not a statesman but a bohemian renegade. The Other's contributions were also deliberately left vague to the reader, so for all we know he had nothing to do with regeneration, which other sources said was Rassilon's discovery till now, though that could be propaganda. The Timeless Child was just Chris Chibnall answering that, even though he had no involvement.
I really like that Jodie Whitaker's "flashback blast" into the Matrix at the end included "The Brain of Morbius." I missed that. That's really cool. It's such a weird and oddly dark moment in "Morbius," and it's fitting in that moment.
monrbies lmao
Yeah I liked it but it may have been a reason to add the mobius faces in their for Chris chibnal
Morbius
Morbius
That was actually foreshadowing for Matt Smith’s appearance in the highest reviewed film of all time “Morbius” where the bats were morbed
It does feel a lot like the Timeless Child comes from the Cartmel Masterplan, which was an aborted story arc that was being written during the Seventh Doctor's run. It's maybe what Chibnall hooked into when writing the more recent arc; the examples from the Seventh Doctor here are from that plan.
Cartmel didn't even like the doctor being the timeless child
@@awesomecat458 Right, because Cartmel wanted the Doctor's past life to be a villain rather than a victim. The Timeless Child is a much better idea.
@@PenneySounds Cartmel specifically said he didn't like it because he hadn't envisaged specifically what the Doctor's past life was and only dropped those hints to create mystery, since the show had lost that since the War Games in his mind. The Other was largely Platt and Aaronovitch's brainchild. He never said his dislike came from the way the Doctor's past life was portrayed.
I do like the idea of The Timeless Child, it explains a lot and gives the time lords both a logical backstory and adds a darkness to them they that lied and exploited a child this entire time. I just feel like it would have worked better had it been the Master instead of the Doctor. If it was the master it would explain so much of their torment, would explain how they were able to defy the regeneration limits and keep on living as a corpse or ooze or a snake, and I think it would justify his anger towards gallifrey more and why he nuked it.
I still wouldn’t mind the Doctor having some higher gallifreyan importance in their backstory as perhaps one of the most important time lords in gallifreys past with some mysterious important role, but I think the timeless child itself would have been better being either the master or a new time lord we hadn’t yet met
You know, I'd never considered how much having the Master as the Timeless Child could work. It would explain how the Master is still around even after being hit by a blast from the Laser Screwdriver that supposedly would prevent Missy from Regenerating. (Though I am still a little disappointed that they just undid Missy's character development)
What if Master is just the set of Doctor's lives, but the one that despises him for whatever he did as part of "the Division" or whatever timelord taskforce was called.
How is the backstory now more logical for the timelord's?
@@TheAnalXylophone omg. That omg if the writers are smart enough that'd be an amazing story
It's an interesting idea. What if both the Master and the Doctor are the Timeless Children? It would not only help explain the Master's abilities to defy the regeneration limits and possess other people's bodies and it would go well with the series 12 episode 10 title: The Timeless Children. With this idea, you begin to wonder, how long have the Master and the Doctor being at odds with one another? Were they always at odds? Were they lovers at some point? Plus, this kind of thinking adds more weight to the Master's decision to destroy the Time Lords and Gallifrey. I doubt this is what the writers were going for. But this idea could be added while Ncuti Gatwa is the Doctor.
When watching classic Who as a kid, I always felt the Time Lords had this big secret they were keeping, and was always left disappointed that it would never get explored. Even though it gained a mixed reaction, I respect Chibnall for trying to give people like me that eventual payoff. As soon as I saw the faces from Brain of Morbius flash through The Doctor's mind, I knew he was going for a very specific kind of fanservice, and even if it wasn't for everyone, I enjoyed every second.
I totally agree. While it's difficult, and inevitably unpopular, for a show like Doctor Who, which has been going on for 60 years and aims to go on forever, to authoritatively answer any questions or close any overarching plotlines, the idea that the Time Lords are a highly corrupt society with some undermining secret has been hinted at for a very long time
#morbiussweep
@@RayaanBaig "it's morbin time" the doctors last words
@@wkkqewqaver7766 My favorite part of the Morbius movie was when Doctor Micheal Morbius said "I'll always remember when it was Morbin time." and then regenerated into a new Doctor incarnation.
Oh dear god, it's spreading
I honestly like this crazy secret. The doctor is immortal being, used by a people ensure they would forget all of their lives. I love that the faces in morbius are actually doctors before the “first” and makes you wonder when will the doctor become the valeyard, curator and others. I love the timeless child story.
I'd be genuinely surprised if the Master wasn't revealed as also being a timeless child, it would simply explain too well how he survived too much stuff
We already have explanations for The Master surviving so much. It's called being a timelord.
@HOTD108_ there's moments where he shouldn't have been able to walk
Like when the 10th doctor confronted the time Lords before regenerating
He disappeared with the time Lords and never to be seen again only for us to see him later with 13 and missy
And I haven't watched enough of the classic Doctor who but I'm pretty sure that there are loads of times that he shouldn't have walked
I could see it also being as simple as when they were kids the doctor did something to the master to sorta elevate them as equals back when they were best of childhood friends before/at the start of the drums but also them just being the ying and yang of timelord gods
I'd like to point out that the name of the episode that revealed that The Doctor was the timeless child was actually called "The Timeless Children." No matter how many faces they've had, The Doctor is still a singular being, so the episode title using the plural form of the word, "children," suggests that The Doctor may not have been the only timeless child. The episode title may have been a clue that there's more to the story. Considering that The Doctor and The Master were the only "children of Gallifrey" (as the Time Lords referred to them in "The End of Time: Part 2") featured in "The Timeless Children," I'd say it's possible that The Master is also a timeless child.
If The Doctor and The Master were both timeless children who came from somewhere other than Gallifrey, that could also help explain why they go by titles rather than their names unlike other Time Lords. Rassilon, Tecteun, Gat, Goth, Morbius, Omega, and Borusa all went by their names while renegades like The Doctor, The Master, The Rani, The War Chief, The Monk, and The Corsair all go/went by self-given titles. Perhaps the difference in the naming conventions could be because the latter group were all timeless children who more or less rejected their Gallifreyan names. The latter group all being timeless children could also explain why those characters all left Gallifrey. The planet may never have felt like home to them.
It seemed obvious to me that multiple versions of the story should have been made in advance, appropriate versions to be shown to whoever discovered them. Certainly The Master would have been kicked into dramatic action by the "discovery" that he was the one and only Timeless Child that made Time Lord civilization what it became. And as others have pointed out here, there could have been multiple Timeless Children...
I don't personally approve of conflating Chiball's Timeless Child concept with the Cartmel Master Plan, but I do concede they're largely compatible besides the Doctor clearly retaining some knowledge of being The Other but not the Child and the iffy choice to mark regeneration as the event/discovery sparking the creation of Time Lord society as opposed to being something engineered after time travel technology/the Anchoring of the Thread.
The Other was never established. Foreshadowing was done but the final concept wasn't revealed, so there's nothing wrong with tweaking what that final concept would be
The Timeless Child is an interesting plot development for the show to take, and I like aspects of it. The Time Lords have always been kinda fake, so establishing that the whole regeneration thing isn’t even theirs is a pretty cool idea… however: the episode realises this concept in a pretty mundane way, the Master just sorta explains all the new lore to the Doctor, who is then outraged that they lied, despite always thinking the Time Lords were bad people? I don’t see what this really adds to the show, other than now we can bait future series finales with reveals about all the new mystery boxes.
I’m interested to see how the show plays this going forward, I don’t think it ruins the Doctor necessarily, but it plays into the new series thing they keep doing where the Doctor is like, the most important person ever, an idea I’m not a massive fan of. We’ll see what happens next I guess. I’m just glad there are people who enjoyed this episode out there. I’m sure never watching it again.
"The Doctor was the first Time Lord" isn't a new series thing. That was intended as a reveal for the *Seventh* Doctor, had the series not been cancelled/gone on hiatus.
I think the idea that regeneration a is a product of the time vortex is a contradiction with the timeless child reveal, which would mean it was retconned to be basically a lie by the timelords to cover their crimes.
Which would explain why the Doctor can't accept it as an explanation for River's DNA changes.
Exactly they stated they became timelords by staring into the time vortex on the past some it would drive mad others not
@@lukeet331 That's not even what was said.
@@PenneySounds Time Lord is a rank, the species is Gallifreyan. It's the equivalent of "Kings" being what the human race is known as.
That's how it was in the novels and the audios, but Time Lords were explicitly stated to be a race in the show, until "Listen" went with the novel version and described it as a rank. "The Timeless Children" again tries to reconcile this by saying it's BOTH. That Time Lords are a race of genetically altered Shobogans, as well as being the elite of Gallifreyan society. Their species is Time Lord.
I honestly thought that The Timelords giving The Doctor a new set of regenerations was just a thing they decided to do.
but they actually have done/offered it before with The Master. I feel way less upset about them breaking their own rules now.
They also resurrected him to fight in the time war, that's the only reason he's still in the show
That line is muddled though by the audio dramas, which reveal that the Bruce Master didn't actually die, leaving us to wonder when it was he died in order to be resurrected
More then that, they would have created a paradox if they didn't: The Twelfth Doctor (14th regeneration) showed up during Day of the Doctor and called in to Gallifrey. The Time Lords knew that the Doctor gained more regenerations in the future, so they had to give him some to prevent time from breaking.
@@jackganger-spivak5160 Except they wouldnt have known it was his 13th regeneration as there where only 13 doctors there, a timelord pulling a 10 was not something they foresaw even with all there power
Never realised that part of Hell Bent revealed he once was a little girl... wow. That's made series 12 look a bit better now. Then again it can be easily said that the Doctor was messing about and knew exactly what Clara was thinking because knowing Missy/the Master they would have used that joke before and the Doctor knows it
True, but it's not the only time 12 expressed some gendery stuff when reflecting on the past. When he told Bill about Missy, he said, "He was a man back then. Pretty sure I was, too," with a puzzled look on his face. There was definitely some heavy hinting during his tenure that the Doctor used to be female at some point. Of course, they could have just been implying that 1 was a trans man, but I feel like it was more of a regeneration thing
Even if it has been hinted at throughout the years, I still feel like it's a stupid idea. Personally I feel like it solves only a few questions and opens up a million more, and not the fun, speculative kind. If they wanted to add a timeless child, I feel it could've been anyone else. The Master, Rassilon, even The Rani! Making it The Doctor feels disingenuous to the feel of the show, making them not just a space hobo, but "THE MOST IMPORTANT CREATURE IN ALL OF TIME!!!!"
It could've worked well. Really well. But it's so clear that they had no plan going into the series other than setting up plot threads to figure out later on. (Chibnell literally said in an interview that he had no plans for where it would go!)
And then there's that little chat in Revolution of the Daleks, Ryan telling The Doctor that "things have to change because they have to so we should just deal with it" A scene that feels so patronizing and frankly INSULTING to the fans who have stuck by this series for close to 60 years. God I feel sorry for RTD, having to follow up with an explanation for this.
But hey, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just out of touch and this is actually a "new beginning" for the series. Fine. But in my eyes, this just seems like a rushed, overly-complicated fanfiction trying to answer the question that should never be answered.
It's the greatest contribution to the series lore in decades. It ties together so many dropped plot threads, and fills so many plot holes that previously existed. You're just looking for a reason to hate it. The Doctor has never been an unimportant "space hobo", and nobody ever claimed she was until "The Timeless Children" aired. Before that, he was "The Last Of The Time Lords" and "The Lonely God" and "The Oncoming Storm" and we were all fine with that. Suddenly we get elaboration on the dropped plot threads of the Cartmel Masterplan, and everybody's going "Making the Doctor special ruins the show!". Come on.
@@PenneySounds But when he was the oncoming storm or the last of the timelords or the lonely god it was to set something up, or it was made by his actions, y'know? It was his reputation, not the universe revolves around her. Also what dropped plot threads are they anyway, I can't bring to mind any. Surely it makes less sense because the 'shobogans?' are actually 'gallifrayns?' so what, do they just have two names
Shobogans aren't a new concept
The Doctor has always been someone exceptional who has made a bigger impact on the universe than anyone else ever. Nothing has changed there. We just now know more about why.
@@PenneySounds exactly, we're introduced as then being gallifrayans, but they can't be, gallifrayans are, who is the dude refering to when he speaks the the 4th Doctor? And it doesn't explain why they made a bigger impact than anyone else, half the point is he denied his origins, ran away in a blue box to have adventures, key point being ran away
@@PenneySounds like I said, it's just my opinion. You can like it if you want, that's fine, I just can't stand it myself. Personally I think that the Time War was a greater implemented contribution that makes the Doctor more important in a way that feels earned. Again, just my opinion. 🤷♀️
I tried looking this up to understand what was going on in The Wild Blue Yonder. This is clearer than the wiki article I read, thank you
60 years of backstory is a lot to go through
I mean the show is so long you could pull clips to justify anything. I don't think the timeless child was planned since before Chibnall. Before him the show was always purposefully vague and for a good reason. The speculation is always better than the answer.
Oh don't give me that JJ Abrams mystery box crap
@@PenneySounds I think its like the Weeping Angels. They were the most badass in Blink, but when we learned more about them in the Flesh and Stone & Time of Angels two parter, they kind of lost their allure, no?
@@PenneySounds But that "mystery is better than the answer" is literally Chibnall's approach and motivation for this entire story. That's why he's confirmed we won't see any closure on the Fugitive Doctor.
@@aloysiuswhiteboat2934 We won't see closure because there's not enough screen time for it. Blame the BBC
@@connormainwaring8866 No. Moffat made them even scarier. In their first appearance, the way to fight the Angels was to look at them. In their second appearance, we're told that if you look at them, you become one.
the stuff written for old who was supposed to be teasing that the doctor was actually a reincarnation of one of the founders of the time lords called "the other" who threw themself into the regeneration pools. but the storyline was never finished so most of the clips were ignored. Chibnall tried to continue that plot thread but for some reason didnt do the same storyline hence the strange lore jumble that is the timeless child
I think this take on it is better. The character is more interesting as a victim of mysterious origins rather than a shadowy mastermind figure.
One of the biggest clues to The Timeless Children is that the Doctor's name is the universe's most important secret. Like, if he was just some random Time Lord, then why is his name so important when the other Time Lord's names aren't important? It wouldn't make sense, unless he isn't just some random Time Lord, but the one that started the Time Lords.
The Doctors name is only important because it would signal to the Time Lords that it's safe for them to return to the main Universe
It’s also important because the doctor is important. Yes he WAS a random time lord but he’s saved the universe enough times to be a bit of a big deal.
i really like the idea of the timeless child, having the doctor lose their sense of identity right after capaldis solidly accepted it is a really cool concept. but i think the execution has been lackluster, although the arc isnt complete yet so its too early to make a full judgement call. i just hope Russel does something interesting with it instead of retconning it or ignoring it.
It's part of the lore now, so we can expect contributions to be made for decades
@@PenneySounds hopefully but the doctor was also half human for a good while so who knows lol
@@paleoleft Possibly still is, since we don't know what the Child is. All we know is she was found next to a giant pink portal just like the one through which the remnants of the Human race escaped the Cyber War.
@@paleoleft I just chalk the half human thing to rule 1 "the doctor lies."
@@Alistair-gi3bx But it was the Master who said it, and then the Doctor said it without knowing that the Master had said it. Then years later, Lady Me said it. That's corroboration
Imagine living for so long you start to lose the memories of who you were at a point
I find it hysterical that now we know the Doctor has (afaik) unlimited regenerations, at Trensalore the Time Lords probably weren't giving the Doctor more regenerations, they likely just shot him discretely and if anybody asked "hey, wasn't that the fire button?" they'd just shrug and say it mustn't have been because he regenerated, didn't he?
Nothing about what you just said made sense
@@PenneySounds okaaay. I guess I'll try to break down my reasoning.
1. the Timeless Child isn't limited to 12 regenerations, that was a Time Lord edition.
2. The Doctor is the Timeless Child, therefore the above applied at the time of the Trensalore arc closing out Matt Smith's run.
3. While the Doctor didn't know he could regenerate, and thus held on for as long as he could, when he died he was always going to regenerate.
4. The Time Lords who we thought gave the Doctor new regenerations (Rassilon confirms we don't know how many in Hell Bent) must actually have just triggered the Doctor's regeneration process manually.
5. The regeneration process is triggered by dying.
Hopefully that's a bit clearer.
Tecteun's regeneration limitation was applied to the Doctor as well. The Doctor was unable to regenerate on Trenzalore, because his ability to regenerate was, in the TARDIS interface's exact word, "disabled". He still had regeneration energy, but could not initiate the regenerative process because of the limitation. The Time Lords lifted the limitation, as they had previously done with the Master.
Regeneration isn't triggered by dying. If a Time Lord dies before regenerating, they stay dead. The Time Lord has to initiate the process consciously. They can even refuse to, as the Master did.
@@PenneySounds I do enjoy how the Tardis put it, too. I initially assumed that regeneration being "disabled" was the work of the poison, but in the context of the Timeless Child arc, it really is a sit-up-straight moment. Like.. yeah, it was disabled. Like, on purpose. By a meddling party...
@@PenneySoundswait what? Regeneration is completely voluntary? I know Time Lords can initiate it when they want, and decide against it when they want. But that it doesn't happen once they die unless they want it to is new to me
I feel like that Morbius clip is the strongest piece of evidence of the timeless child for classic who. Although I feel like it was legitimately hinted at with Missy and Clara
Morbius as in the Marvel legend or the Dr. Who character?
Morbius Tom Baker episodes is one of my favorites...
well that’s too bad because it isn’t.
The characters that are seen pre Hartnell were intended to be faces of the Doctor but before he started travelling the universe and these faces were faces the Doctor completely knew about.
This also does connect to the original script of the Power Of The Daleks where the second doctor was supposed to open a compartment in the console unit that revealed memorabilia and photographs of pre hartnell regenerations. But due to this not being shown it is debated whether or not it is canon. As for the “Morbius Doctors” those were assumed to be faces of Morbius as it wasn’t actually revealed to who they belong to as both Morbius and the Doctor are Time Lords.
@@apersonandaperson They definitely weren't the Doctor before he started traveling. All those incarnations are seen wearing different periods of Earth clothing. Yes, it wasn't intended at the time that the Doctor didn't know about these past faces, but that aspect resolves the contradiction between "The Brain of Morbius" and both "The Three Doctors" saying the First Doctor was the "earliest", and "The Five Doctors" saying the Fifth Doctor was the fourth regeneration.
It absolutely was revealed they were the Doctor's faces and not Morbius' faces. It's explicit in the scene.
@@PenneySounds We see William Hartnell’s doctor wearing the same outfit he usually would on Gallifrey while stealing his TARDIS which means there Earth clothing present on Gallifrey. It actually wasn’t revealed that those past faces were the Doctor’s it is only implied as Morbius does say “How long have you lived” Even the writers don’t point out who they belong to. It is only implied that it is the Doctor’s but seen as though the Doctor does defeat Morbius during the Mind Bending that means at some point the Doctor gained hé upper hand implying the Doctor wanted to see past incarnations of Morbius therefore implying those faces belong to Morbius.
I remember seeing The Brain of Morbius as a little Whovian and I remember very well how many excited conversations there were with school friends about it's implications. But a regeneration does have a way of muddying the waters of continuity and we all moved on with the fifth. But it's stayed with me all this time. So to me, as a child of old Who, TTC arc is a gateway to so many possibilities, and what with it being in RTD's hands again, well I've had my love of the Doctor reinvigorated. And this video has helped a great deal. Thanks for sharing.
This video convinced me that the Master's account of the Timeless Child does actually fit in the continuity
So does this retcon the previously established lore that Rassilon and Omega invented regeneration and time travel? And that Gallifery was a matriarchy? Because we have seen the women that used to rule Gallifrey (before they were banished) help The Doctor regenerate into the war doctor. Also I could be wrong but I thought that the 12 regeneration limit was artificially imposed by Rassilon because he was/is a bit egomaniacal and thought he was the only one worthy of true immortality. If the Doctor is the timeless child why did Rassilon and the Timelords have to grant him more regenerations if The Doctor is the original source of the power to regenerate?
None of that was established lore in the show. That stuff is from the novels and audios, which the show regularly ignores.
I interpreted it as Rassilon taking credit for Tecteun's work. That's very in-character for Rassilon, who would apparently erase entire Time Lord families from history in order to further his own power. When Tecteun and Division disappeared to do their thing outside of the universe (as seen in Flux), Rassilon took over Gallifrey and essentially rewrote their history to imply it was all him. Omega complains about his achievements being usurped by others in The Three Doctors, so it's likely Rassilon did the same thing to him as well.
I am _not_ upset about there being a secret origin for regeneration. In fact, I think it's funny that the Time Lords essentially appropriated regeneration from another species. I'm just a bit iffy about the Doctor being involved in this origin. The Doctor doesn't care for Time Lord society, they don't deserve that burden.
I think the fact that the Doctor doesn't care for Time Lord society is just another reason why this reveal works so well. We've always known that the Doctor and the Time Lords stand apart, the Sixth Doctor's speech at the conclusion of his trial says it all really
I also think the Timelords stealing regeneration works. We know they stole Archron energy and were given time travel. I wouldn't be surprised if they stole TARDISes too. Hell, the TARDISes might be a separate species with a symbiotic relationship to Timelords.
I'm willing to let future writers sell me on the Doc actually being a new species. One funny side effect of that, though, is that the Master really is the best Timelord to ever live. They really are the winner, lmao
Great video. I may have mixed feelings on the Timeless Child arc but I am a sucker for some lore.
It's the best contribution to the series lore in decades
@@PenneySounds I'm curious to see if we learn a bit more in 13's last story.
Hopefully Davies keeps delving into it as well
@@PenneySounds He most likely wont, as lots of things have come up proving that the next season will be like another soft reboot, swiping everything off the table to get a clean start. there might be some callbacks to it here and there though. So Chibnall better tie it up nice!
There is absolutely zero chance of anything rebooting. These rumours come from the same people who think David Tennant is going to be the lead again.
It's amazing how the Timeless Child links into a bunch of old things. Seventh Doctor apparently was able to access some of the memories of the Timeless Child.
That or just straight up knew/worked out what they didn't remember. The Time Lords had a chance to deal with that during the Time War. Also Eight's amnesia to the point he thought he was half-human
@@carrot708 Ah, I see what you're saying. Yeah maybe. I kind of think of it as things the Doctor would think and say and not know really why he was thinking or saying them.
@@carrot708 for all we know he still is half human, The whole hybrid story leans towards this, hence the time lords captured him
@@carrot708 It was the Master who worked out that 8 was half human based on the anatomy of his eye. Can't blame memories for that.
Perhaps the master is also a timeless child... Maybe both the doctor and the master came through that portal together... Yin and Yang
I think that's the case, yes
This is simply fantastic. Thank you for putting all together the old tie-ins!
Tom Baker was the fourth incarnation of Doctor Who. And he was the model from which all other Doctors after him were fashioned from. So have a jelly baby.
He modeled his own interpretation on Patrick Troughton, including the Jelly Babies.
Tbh it was kinda scary seeing the doctor except his end at first no plan to cheat no way of getting out he was fully ready to die until he got a new chance and made it so he could have another go
Speculation (in response to a lot of the comment threads here):
The child, who becomes the Doctor... is a future incarnation of the Master, thrust back to that exact point in time and space in that exact form. Nobody understands either of them like each other - because they ARE each other.
I don't think so. They're famously terrible at understanding each other
"She found something... *impossible* ."
Moffat's use of that word is now seared into my memory that that must be a throwback to him. Good stuff.
while i dont think the timeless child is as bad as the hybrid revalation being the reason the doctor ran away originally, i really think the actual timeless child episode doesnt do the reveal any favours by having like 3 episodes happening at once, like a cyberman x master where cybermen invade gallifrey story, the companions fighting cybermen alone, and then timeless child. I feel like this makes the reveal not have enough time to show the doctors feelings and real impacts and then the next episode and then season is just the doctor learning over and over again who they are.
Sacha Dhawans master honestly makes it up for me tho, i absolutely adore his performance. Like hes so desperate for the doctors attention and rage at him because he knows that his biggests fears were true and that hes less important and isnt better than her. it makes the scene where he makes her kneel in spyfall so much more interesting like hes grasping at anything to feel better than the doctor.
I find his performance a bit... twitchy. Makes me think of Zack Snyder's interpretation of Lex Luthor. But I can accept this version of the character so long as he comes before Missy, not after.
I like that you've put this all together, but most of it is referring to other accounts of the Doctor's origin not the Timeless Child. Lots of stuff I didn't even consider though.
Those other accounts never ended up being fleshed out. The Timeless Child is the result of adding up all those pieces.
The usage of the word hint in the title very much is not the word i'd use. I'd def more so consider it "timeless children connections". Hint implies it was all planned out from the very beginning which is not the case considering how many different writes and people have contributed to the lore and the show.
The fact that they weren't planned in the real world doesn't change that they are hints in-universe
Would you believe a single word that The Master said? No. Neither would I.
I know that The Doctor lies, but The Master is an habitual liar.
But he's not lying here. There's corroborating evidence
@@PenneySounds - That he possibly created.
@@brianartillery The Master did not create the past incarnations Morbius found in the Fourth Doctor's mind.
You missed a scene in the beginning of World Enough & Time where 12 mentions that he isn't sure that he was male back during his childhood.
Why include the Eleventh Doctor's regeneration and the regeneration limit? They directly contradict the Timeless Child.
Except if you actually watch the video, they don't
excellent compilation! Really well done here, it shows the thought that went into the timeless child arc, which I feel truly adds depth to the show. [ I hope the doctor will look into that fob watch . . . ]
Oh my word. I have watched the show from Day One. My father worked on the show, then I worked on the show.Then I tried to put the colour back on lost episodes. Then I watched the new show with my kids. Never have I seen the structure of the Dr's life more clearly. Yes - it really does all fit. Bravo !
It's because of all the people who worked on it putting so much care into it over the last 6 decades. Chibnall just connected all the dots and showed us a bigger picture.
@@PenneySounds Absolutely. I am privileged to have been a small part of it. During the dead years I felt like I was alone ( almost ) with my love for the show. Now look at them !
It was cancelled when I was 1 year old, so half my life was the dead years. And I live in Canada, where the show was basically unheard of, even though the 1996 movie filmed in the city I currently live in. So when it came back in 2005 (with the help of the CBC in fact), I'd only ever heard the name of the show once or twice and knew nothing about it. First episode I saw was "Boom Town". I can tell you the exact second I fell in love with the show.
The Doctor: "Ricky, let me tell you something about the human race. You put a mysterious blue box slap bang in the middle of town, what do they do? Walk past it. Now stop your nagging, let's go explore."
Me: "I'm going to be a fan of this show for the rest of my life."
And this was the same year that Star Trek was cancelled, again. I grew up with Star Trek and it was foundational in my worldview and ethics. A couple short years later it was rebooted in this dumbed-down lowest-common-denominator version, which is just disgraceful and depressing to see. So Doctor Who took the place of Star Trek for me as the thing that fires my imagination and gives me hope for the future.
@@PenneySounds I like you ! :-)
Oddly, Star Trek is the show that the BBC transmitted when Dr Who was on holiday. The episode with the Gorn was the first to be shown here in the UK - a very bad start. I have watched all of Star Trek ever since too. I have great hopes for the new chap Ncuti ( Shooti )
Star Trek and Doctor Who have a weird history. It's like they can't exist at the same time. Like both at once is too much awesomeness for the world to handle.
Doctor Who started in 1963
Star Trek started in 1966 and fizzled out after just 3 years
Star Trek comes back to TV in 1987
Doctor who is cancelled just two years later in 1989
Star Trek has a massive run of 4 separate shows, then is abruptly cancelled again in 2005
Doctor Who comes back the same year
It's kind of spooky. Makes me worry that we'll never see proper, non-rebooted, non-dumbed-down Star Trek again unless Doctor Who gets cancelled.
Have you seen the Star Trek video I did? I made it specifically to give people who've never seen it before an entry point to get into it.
czcams.com/video/rD29-lSwdoc/video.html
It's really cool that you found all the ties that justify the episode, but I still think it could have been executed better.
Preferably, I'd have the Doctor be Tec-te-un. Have it so that they experimented on themselves, so that keeps the Timeless child backstory, but doesn't discount a much more fascinating origin for the Doctor; the idea that they are ultimately responsible for the Gallifreyans' pretentiousness and war mongering over control of time.
That's my opinion tho
...So you would be happier if the Doctor wasn't the character who was abused, tortured, and enslaved, but the one who was abuser, torturer, and enslaver?
@@PenneySounds Well, I just said that they would experiment ON THEMSELVES. By merging Tec-te-un and the Timeless Child into one character, that eliminates all three of those implications. Because the would-be Doctor wouldn't have abused anyone but...well, themselves. It's in their _complicit_ involvement with how Time Lord society evolved from that point on that would cause some contention.
The rationalization behind that school of thought is that it would provide reason as to why the Doctor set out on their journey to help and heal the universe. They're grief-stricken in the part they played in hurting the universe and are making up for it by spending the rest of their lives protecting it. Because the way I look at it, a reveal around the Doctor being the arbiter of regeneration on its own...doesn't morally challenge the character in a way that's interesting, it would just feel like another part of backstory tacked on, as opposed to a backstory that gives the Doctor villainous roots that they worked hard to leave behind or even repress.
I also get that the entire season was building up to that reveal and thus showed abuse, torture, and enslavement, which I say adds to why I think this reveal could have been thought through better; could it have been reworked so that the flashes of torture were glimpses into Gallifrey exposing their young to the Schism? Could that have been reworked to imply it as the result of Tec-te-un's research?
I'm spitballing here and I'm in no way hating on the episode. What's canon is canon and I'm glad you're combing through the show to support it; I'm just discussing my opinion.
@@PenneySounds
Wait are you seriously trying to say you'd rather the doctor was the one you'd rather had been tortured and bruised?
Yes I'd obviously rather anyone other than the doctor
What the hell are you smoking
There were a lot of evil souls on Gallifrey even before the time war
What in your right mind makes you think this kind of character, would deserve anything like that?
I'd rather it not happen at all
@@philswiftdestroyerofworlds1988 The Doctor having experienced suffering is not new. It deepens the character. Intentionally causing suffering would undermine the character.
i would say that it should have been the master that was the timeless child not the doctor. it would be so much more narratively satisfying
As a English bloke whos watched Who for aslong as I can remember born in 76 💯💯💯❤️❤️💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪
I like to think that the Doctor has no true origin story:
As time is constantly being reset, details about the universe are adjusted all across space and time. The Doctor was a normal Gallifreyan child. And they were The Other. Then they were the Timeless Child. They were all of them. Sometimes they're thousands of years old, sometimes only recently broke 2 millennia
It also explains how humans can never remember if aliens are real: the story keeps changing :)
Also, Susan Foreman has no fewer than 6 contradictory origin stories, all of which are true. It's a very wibbly-wobbly life.
Didn't RTD say the cracks caused it. Moffat strongly implied it during The Eleventh Hour (Amy did not know Alien stuff) and during the first season
This is really thorough and really makes the storyline fit so well. I love it. Thank you for sharing this.
I can't wait to see this storyline explored further in the future
I was never that fond of the concept of the Timeless Child but damn this is a good watch!. Well done. Really enjoyable video.
I don't know if I would include Smith's regeneration as something that fits with the Timeless Child reveal, since the Doctor is clearly dying in that scene (regenerates the moment that he gets "given a new regeneration cycle"). It doesn't directly contradict the Timeless Child reveal or anything, since you can rationalize it and come up with excuses, but it's not a great example of continuity in my opinion.
It's a perfect example of continuity. Because without The Timeless Children, that scene would conflict with the previous scene where the Doctor still had regeneration energy to give River. Now we know that regeneration energy is unlimited, but Tecteun made it so the regeneration process can only be initiated a certain number of times. A limitation that can be lifted.
Part of me believes that the reason The Timeless Child arc wasn't received well was cause Chibnall wrote it. I loved the concept of it and believe that it perfectly fits in with everything else, but feel as though it should have been implemented with much better stories.
Here's an analogy for this. If I gave the same joke to 2 kids (The Popular Kid and The Weird Kid), people would laugh harder when The Popular kid said the joke, cause he knows how to deliver his jokes unlike the Weird kid whose delivery will be bland.
In this analogy Chibnall is the Weird Kid, eventhough he's the one who actually made the joke in the first place.
Just my worthless 2 cents on this matter.
The reason is people decided for political reasons to hate whatever Chibnall ended up coming up with the moment they saw that he casted a female Doctor
@@PenneySounds Yeah, that's there too. This sentiment was mostly prevalent in reviewers like MrNerdrotic and others similar to him. Rather than giving proper criticism, they would give personal attacks directed at Chibnall and Jodie. I am glad I stopped watching that clusterf#ck of an a$$h0le when i identified his motives
I've twice approved your reply to this comment but CZcams refuses to show it to me here so I can reply to it.
But yes, I know what you mean. As someone who opposes the rebooted version of Star Trek and Disney's Star Wars sequels, it's very frustrating to have the conversation on those issues dominated by CZcams incels like Nerdrotic who oppose them for all the wrong reasons.
I'm sorry but even if they planned this during the last doctor doesn't make it a good idea just not a out of no where idea
It's been firmly established for 45 years. The show had only been around for 13 years before that. This plot point is probably older than you are.
The Other
None of these really hint at it... These clips can work and did work without the context of the timeless children.
You're seeing what you want to see. Some of these are jokes not to be taken seriously but now you can fit them into this narrative.
The Morbius Doctors are a joke?
@@PenneySounds "Some of these"
@@PenneySounds they were confirmed not to be the Doctor many times before. This debate has been over since some less-informed fans tried to use it as the baseline argument for TTC.
@@OptimysticPessimyst "We tried to get famous actors for the faces of the Doctor. But because no one would volunteer, we had to use backroom boys. And it is true to say that I attempted to imply that William Hartnell was not the first Doctor." -Philip Hinchcliffe
@@OptimysticPessimyst Confirmed in what way?
Ive been with this show since Troughton/Pertwee, a HUGE fan and I thank you for the time taken in putting this explanation together. The revelation of the Timeless Child was a little clunky when realised in the show but this video, trawling the canon to find the continuity definitely sheds a great deal of light. It doesn't make complete sense but heck, this is scifi... and RTD is back with a gay, black performer as our next Doctor. Very excited to see where it goes. And thank you
I didn't find it clunky at all. I think it does make complete sense, though it opens up so much mystery that there's a lot to be explored yet.
Ok but can someone please explain why if the doctor has unlimited regenerations why do the time Lords give him more at the time of the doctor surely he would have been able to regenerate anyway?
4:32
Maybe he didn't know. And if they didn't give it to him at that point, their lie would be revealed.
Thank you for taking the clue of the Missy's speach to Clara !! I never see it when people put the timeless children on fire without regardless to the clue of the other seasons and incarnations of the Doctor. Big ty
Personally I just love how much the Timeless Child arc adds so much more Mystery to The Doctor. But to be honest, ever since the revelation in the Doctor Who movie back in 1996 where 8th says he's half human, on his mother's side and people became outraged by it.
I don't know what people want from this show if not just a bit of mystery behind The Doctor but I liked this twist and I really hope it is revisited at some point. Especially since the Fobwatch is still deep within The TARDIS containing The Doctor's Timeless Child genetics and memories.
I love the idea that missy is post spy master purely cause it means the masters final (please just let them die) incarnation finally got to be the doctors friend again
It's too perfect that that should be the Master's final end. It should be left that way.
I remember watching this and thinking "OMG! They finally got the Morbius regenerations into canon!"
Jenna Coleman is such a beautiful, angelic goddess 😍😍😍
I like this video. It's been yrs since I've watched the old school doctor who before the 9th.
When he said his age I thought to myself I swore he was older.
This video cleared it up for me. I don't have a problem with the timeless child. I just wish we got more
This primer was nicely thought of for those that never did the old series.
Fantastic! Nice to see these all compiled together 😀
Thanks for this video. It’s sad, I liked the idea of the Timeless Child as a big overarching concept that could bring something fresh to DW, I just feel its a shame that Chibnall didn’t really do the whole thing justice. I’m curious to see where RTD takes things now. Tell you what though, if he brings back Omega, I shall personally seek the man out and give him a great big hug!!!
It was the BBC who didn't do it justice. They gave us like half the screen time we should have gotten over the last 5 years. Not enough time to tell any story, let alone one this big. Fortunately it doesn't have to end. It's cemented in the lore now.
@@PenneySounds
That's a hot take.
100% not on purpose but its fun to think about it
How is it not on purpose?
I loved this video, thank you for compiling all of that together!
This is so beautiful!! I love this show and its rich history... Here's to another 60 years.
I struggle to see how any of these are hinting at the timeless child.
So the series of incarnations farther back in the Doctor's life than the First Doctor don't in any way relate to the Timeless Child to you?
@@PenneySounds You talking about the Morbius faces?
@@WELSHGAMER99 Yes, the Doctor's past faces that Morbius dredged out of his subconscious
@@PenneySounds The issue there tho is that the Morbius episode never explicitly said that those faces belonged to the Doctor. It was the writer or producers belief at the time and since then it's been contradicted
@@WELSHGAMER99 Except the Morbius episode absolutely 100% DOES explicitly, unambiguously, and indisputably say those faces are of the Doctor's past incarnations. I included the clip. Morbius literally screams "BACK! BACK TO YOUR BEGINNING!". There is absolutely no way to interpret those faces as belonging to anyone else.
My guess is that the ppl who kidnapped amy spliced the timelord genetics into rivers embryo so she got regeneration, hence being harder to kill and more equipt to kill the doctor
I'm just a casual new who fan and I loved how you put what used to be discontinuity plotholes together into a clear and cogent explanation of how/why Timeless Child actually built on the existing show lore.
So there is a lot of backlash against this, but I just like it.
The doctor was never going to die in the first place, also regeneration can still be interrupted, it's not like the doctor is truly immortal.
And any and all danger was mostly about his companions in the first place.
I imagine every 12 cycles they would remove his memories to ensure that the doctor would be none the wiser, ensuring both their own safety as well as that of the doctor because the doctor would surely be targeted if the truth was known.
It also does not take away from the first doctor William Hartnell at all. Because the doctor was a promise, a vow.
William Hartnell will always be the first doctor the true doctor the original you might say.
I did not like The Timeless Child arc when it hit, but it does seem that it has been pretty strongly hinted at since at least Matt Smith's tenure, and it's clear that there was a long running implication that the Doctor lived more lives before the First Doctor took the TARDIS. Honestly I think my biggest issue with it at this point is that it still leaves a lot of unanswered questions (especially for a storyline that is kind of portrayed as containing "answers" to old plot holes), but obviously unanswered questions can be expanded upon in the future.
I think the only detail that still bothers me is the "being from another universe" bit. Mostly because I just personally don't like the idea, but also because the story could have been executed without the Doctor being from another universe- there's no real change in stakes between the timeless child coming through a portal to another universe vs. just being some anomaly from our own. At least, as it stands, it removes a lot of the Doctor's identity of being a time lord- though I guess there's no reason they couldn't also just be a time lord equivalent from their parallel universe.
Honestly though, I just kind of hope they don't retcon it. It does work, even if it isn't personally my favorite. RTD coming in to retcon it would be extremely cheap- and if they really believe the current audience hates it so much, they should just leave it alone for a while until some new writer wants to take it up again a few Doctors from now.
Also, either way, thanks for this video- it does a lot to cement that the Timeless Child story wasn't just something that sprang up out of nowhere.
thank you verry much now everything sounds clear to me 💙
I don’t exactly have any issues whatsoever with this concept. We can clearly see the concept is on point with the classic and new series.
Thank you for putting the work into this. It's neat to consider.
Another good hint is from Human Nature & Family of Blood with all the voices coming from the doctor's watch including several female ones. At at times a bunch of overlapping ones. Likely from past regenerations since they mingled with his own. And would say to keep them hidden and safe.
A whole deeper depth to "know thyself".
so is there a link between the morbius doctor and the timeless children, since the morbius doctors could be older versions, of the timeless children.
Originally during the 7th doctors era they were going to reveal he was a member of the trinity of founders of time Lords, I don't like him being the source of regeneration so if they had to make a twist where there was more to his past then we thought I'd prefer the original where he's important but not the only one.
That version would have had him as a godlike and nearly villainous shadowy figure. Like Tecteun. This version is much better.
This retroactively makes Time of the Doctor better, because even though it's justified in the episode, it always seemed random that they imbued him with more regenerations at the end. It seemed to come from nowhere. Now...we know why. Because he's the first Gallifreyan. The Timeless Child. He needs to keep going for Gallifrey to prosper. Without The Doctor, there is no Gallifrey. It wasn't an act of kindness, it was an act of selfishness.
Great comment
I always thought it was because he managed to save them in a parallel pocket universe & End the time war, in the episode right before “the day of the doctor” let alone being a former president
I figured their hands were tied. They had to pretend to give him a new set of regenerations or else he'd have some pretty big questions.
@@R.F.9847 Why would they have to pretend anything? He really couldn't regenerate. "Regeneration disabled", remember?
@@PenneySounds The effects of the poison disabled his ability to regenerate. Then Melody cured him with her own regeneration energy. And how would the Time Lord Council know of this, regardless? Really, the fact that he suggested regeneration here is a slip-up of the writers. The Doctor should have believed that he was at the end of his regeneration cycle.
You could do one of these with the Doctor not liking endings. That's come up a fair bit. First Doctor painfully leaving Susan, not wanting to part with Ian and Barbara; Second Doctor I'm not sure; Third Doctor avoiding Jo's departure; Fourth not actually saying goodbye to Sarah; Fifth's trauma at Adric's ending; Sixth doesn't have much unfortunately; Seventh and Mel mostly; Eighth and Ninth not sure; Tenth has plenty; Eleventh has plenty; Twelfth has plenty; Thirteenth has them too, like her difficulty confronting the concept of a terminal illness with Graham, or her comment about wanting to time travel to have more time with Ryan and Graham, or just in Legend of the Sea Devils where she wishes she could travel with Yaz forever.
Second doctor could be Jamie and Zoe getting their memories wiped by the Time Lords
i just take the timelords giving Matt Smith regeneration energy as making him extra explosive to destroy the daleks
Even way back in Classic Who and the expanded universe, it was heavily implied that Rassilon 1) stole the regeneration ability from somewhere else; and 2) it was granted to Gallifreyan priests and early Time Lords through gene splicing. Time Lords that graduate from the Academy are granted the third strand of TNA and the Rassilon imprimatur that allows them to regenerate.
One legend had it that Rassilon stole the regeneration ability from the Great Vampires (and became a Great Vampire himself.)
So yeah, this isn't new.
It's also not a new idea that the Doctor is an ancient being from another universe that had a past with the early Time Lords and had their previous lives erased from both the record and their memory.
Hell, the Seventh Doctor "New Adventure" novels all but outright state/show the Doctor is an eldritch abomination that is *heavily implied* to be Nyarlathotep and simply took on a Gallifreyan form way back when.
Anyway, people thinking that RTD, a Virgin New Adventures writer, is going to retcon away the Timeless Child arc when it's a major homage to the myth arc in that novel series will forever be hilarious to me.
How many times did she kill that child? Dark...
interesting how the doctors past has always been so ambiguous but when it becomes canon that there is still so much we don't know about the doctor, people complain
imo the timeless children brought some ambiguity back to the character, moffat clarified and solved a lot for us - the doctor's name especially covered with the name/time of the doctor and also picked up in 12s final speech, it gives us some clarity as we can now apply these strange statements about the 3rd doctors age and the 7th doctor but still create a mystery out of it, not one with immediate intention to solve
Beautiful picture and content edits. Sound mixes are difficult but really make an edit come alive. Excellent back story support !
Re watching her seasons - again - I can now see the very high quality of everything. Quite how I missed this before I don't know.