Prototype Locked-Breech 9x19mm Mauser HSc
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
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When Mauser began development of the HSc pistol, it was intended to be a pair of guns - a simple blowback gun in .32 or .380 caliber for civilian and police use and a larger locked-breech type in 9x19mm for military use. Mauser had tried this before with their 1910 pocket pistol, but in that effort they tried to make both sizes blowback, which did not work well. This time, the designer - Alex Seidel; later a founder of H&K - looked at what technology Mauser owned, and chose Josef Nickl's rotating barrel patent to use in the 9x19 version of the HSc.
This pistol is number V1001, the very first prototype HSc, and it's one of the rotating barrel locked breech guns. Ultimately this gun suffered the same fate as the Mauser 1909; it was not accepted by the military, and saw no commercial production. The German military would decide that it required an exposed barrel, which the HSc did not have. Mauser would develop the HSv for military trials, but it would be defeated by the Walther HP, which was adopted as the P38.
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I’m convinced fireplace man is simply a time traveler who has looted history of its prototype handguns.
Nice observation
probably some kind of Methuselan immortal with a penchant for novelty
lmao
It does look oddly suspicious.
It does seem to be the only reasonnable explanation at this point
fireplace man has a seriously impressive collection!
fireplace guy has evidently much more money than I do.
Quarantine is get my bored but Ian keep us sane.
Only love for Forgotten weapons.
Stay safe all of you
Italy? Is it really as bad as the media say here in Germany? Goodness ... here in Germany it is bad enough and is getting worse. The whole country has been shut down. But that is nothing against what we are told from Italy. I wish you and the whole Italian people that the nightmare will end soon. Stay well ... get well again. Europe without Italy is no good.
You as well my friend. Stay safe and sane.
@@giostisskylas Any better nowadays up there in Germany?
Sidenote:
Pistol vz. 24 was produced by Ceska Zbrojovka (CZ) in production plant in the town of Strakonice. In Brno there was a different company - Zbrojovka Brno (ZB), which produced it´s predecessor vz. 22 pistol.
Brief history:
ZB was established in 1918 on the bases of Austro-Hungarian state enterprise. It was producing a wide variety of goods (firearms, cars, tractors, typewriters, engines.....). It went bankrupted in 2009 and afterward (the brand and guns technical data) was bought by CZ.
CZ was established in 1919 in Strakonice as a subsidiary of Skoda - company located in Pilsen. It was meant to be a competitor to ZB (but in reality, they had largely different portfolio). In 1936 CZ was partially relocated to Uherský Brod due to German threat, but the production of guns continued (with an interruption) in both plants until 1950 (last gun produced in both plants was CZ vz. 50 - the production from Strakonice is generally considered of superior quality).
During the communist era it was a real mess - renaming all companies, changing production portfolio etc.
Both CZs (with different owners) are still in business, CZ Strakonice do produce guns again (pistols, AR-15 based rifles - both gas and piston operated); so it is possible to buy CZ, resp. ČZ, guns from two independent companies (there used to be three of them, but it is a different story).
Rbr Pvk Thanks for the informative comment. I own a 1931 production CZ-24 and information is sometimes a bit hard to come across. It’s a bit of an obscure pistol to most. Anyhow Thanks!
Thank you for that history.
@kev french not to my knowledge. CZ Strakonice produced motorcycles of its own design (originaly to compete with JAWA). Due to typical socialist lack of inovation, their design was obsolete in 60´s. In 90´s there was an attempt to cooperate with an italian manufacturer, but it went nowhere.
MZ motorcycles were in Czechoslovakia in 80´s considered better compare to domestic production, but uncompetitive to western or Japanese models.
Grand Power of Slovakia produces pistols with rotating barrels but their design is different than this.
@kev french Hardly likely, as MZ were an East German make, producing in what had been (pre-WWII) DKW factories in Saxony. The actual DKW factory equipment had been removed to Ishevsk's IshMash plants - so there is a link to arms production there, even if a tenuous one.
So glad forgotten weapons is here to save me every morning from boredom. So glad your still making great content and haven’t fallen off from making said content. Keep up the great work.
I keep reminding myself that it's not yet my time to die because there are too many guns I haven't experienced yet. Thank you for continuously cranking out the comprehensive content. Always a pleasure.
Every time I see a rotating barrel it reminds me of how much I love to hate my Beretta 8045. Double stack 45 that only holds 8 rounds. Ridiculously fat and odd shaped full size grip with a compact barrel and slide. The point of aim is exactly the point of impact at 10 yards from a rest but I can't hit a 4 inch steel plate to save my life. Extremely heavy trigger pull. I don't know why I love it.
GFP
My Dad had a Beretta PX4 Storm in 9mm. It actually grouped quite well, but about 3 feet high. Apparently this was quite common out of the box, and Beretta would fix it if you sent it back. He traded it off to a friend for something else or I would have inherited it. It's essentially the same idea as the Beretta 8000 series but with a polymer frame. Later I bought a Grand Power Q100 and it is an excellent shooter with a similar but not identical rotating barrel system. The K100 is the hammer fired version.
I'd like to take a shot at the exposed barrel requirement. The German armorers likely felt that the Luger design achieved good accuracy through the exposed (fixed) barrel design, therefore they wanted its follow up replacement to use a fixed barrel also. Holster consideration could also be a factor. I believe that the Luger and P-38 both fit in the German military holsters currently in use at the time. A pistol with a barrel inside a slide probably couldn't fit in the Luger size holster.
These are just my thoughts, without any source material to verify my conclusions. However, it seems logical, and I have seen Spock in a Nazi uniform.
J W tbh, they could also be rather dogmatic about small arms design at times... for instance initially being opposed to designs with gas ports drilled into barrels... with makers eventually getting designs out by simply ignoring that restriction.
I suspect it was a weight and/or material-saving requirement.
Plus it looks better
Fireplace collector. . . his collection just, wow, I mean, this is the freaking Fort Knox of obscure and unique weapons. I wonder what we haven't, and never will see.
Ian, ever stop to think about the incredible amount of information you have floating around in your head? I realize you have just now come from a deep research session before planning and writing your presentation, but WOW anyhow! You are amazing. 😊
(Just sayin'...) Thank you. 😏
I've been shooting the Beretta PX4 a lot over the past couple years, really cool to see how similar these are, had no idea the concept first showed up that long ago
I wonder if that fireplace is a set just to throw us off and Ian is actually the owner or keeper of all these unique firearms😁
Or that fireplace is actually a secret door to a firearms vault.
Actually I don't wonder, if the owner/keeper of these unique weapons wishes to remain anonymous that's fine I just glad he let's Ian show them on his channel.
I do imagine there are security protocols in place.
Fireplace guy has made himself known actually, he did an interview on the channel a while back.
czcams.com/video/fSp3K42YR2U/video.html
Father Ianmass been dropping down the chimney again for us!
I owned the .380 caliber Mauser HSC and when I was working with AutoCAD years ago I decided to re-engineer the HSc in .45 ACP caliber and I used a rotating barrel system also but I kept the spring around the barrel in order to keep the similar profile as the original pistol. Using AutoCad it worked pretty nice.
Another great prototype firearm from the "Fireplace Collection." Thank you to the collector for letting Ian show us another one of his very cool guns!
This one is very reminiscent of the Beretta Px4 Storm to me. I didn't pay attention to the Beretta trigger mechanism when I handled them though, as I didn't take it apart. Next time I'll be sure to ask to, the action felt amazingly smooth to me.
Fireplaceguy strikes yet again!!
Very nice pistols.
I believe that a majority of people have no idea exactly how many different guns were ever or are currently being developed and produced.
Beautiful guns. I know polymer is more practical, but blued steel and wood look so much more elegant.
Addicted to your channel. Amongst the many joys of watching a trained engineer dissect a rare firearm, is the lack of a cheesy theme tune (MAC, Mark Felton) and you get straight into it. Keep up the excellent work!
Pity. The HSc looked quite modern.
and ironically killed in its day because of a stupid requirement for an exposed barrel
Is there any good reason to have an exposed barrel?
@@cmdr_krabov To give ones opponent a sporting chance. 🧐
@@cmdr_krabov I suppose you could say that an exposed barrel would be able to be air-cooled faster. Maybe more reliability. But those are the only reasons I could think of.
Love the low profile and concealability of the gun.
Oh, that would have been nice. I love the HSc in .32 but a bigger 9mm version would have been sweet.
Wow, this pistol looks beautiful, greetings from Germany and stay health!
Thanks Ian, always been a fan of the HSc, and the rotating bbl locked breech would have been a fabulous gun, too bad they never picked it up post war.
I love it when Ian says "Hi Guys" ! at each start of his clips! I am sure that there are ladies also watching his vids!
do we know what the german rationale for an exposed barrel is? seems like an odd requirement when we have pistols like the 1911 already well known and proved
Maybe better heat distribution under rapid fire?
Could be to save material
1930's Germany wasn't exactly governed by reason...
They also insisted the prototype semi-auto rifles couldn't have a gas port drilled in the barrel, and look how that turned out.
@@moosemaimer they also also required said semiautomatic to have the ability to work as a bolt action rifle, which ranks towards the top of "dumbest shit I've ever heard"
The longer (rotating) barrel versions (HsC/HsV) are beautifully designed.
You're doing a good job Ian.
Ian, you’re an absolute saviour bringing us this content during the zombie apocalypse.
One has to wonder why the Krauts were set on an exposed barrel? Seems a little old hat by that point in history surely?
jackd787 maybe it uses less material?
@@andywuhu6720
Maybe, though does an exposed barrel not result in higher manufacturing costs?
Because it's the way it has to be done. Or as we say here: "so hamwa das immer hier gemacht, so machen wa das auch weiter" 😁😉
@@erebostd
Ich nehme an das dass stimt.
@@erebostd Und im Anschluss, "Da könnte ja jeder kommen" und "Wo kämen wir denn da hin??"
Another good video. I search for ones you have done on the guns I have and download them and after watching them I save them to my folder on whatever gun it was on. I have found you have done videos on all the older guns I have. Thanks.
Pure elegance and class.
Gun lineage is neat, that magazine seems almost identical to my cz27’s magazine in look and function.
Just in time for my daily dose of Gun Jesus !
good video as always
So my last name is Seidel and hearing it so much in this video made me really giddy.
Also, it might not be the case here but we pronounce "Seidel" as "sigh-dull".
Does anyone out there have a last name "Seidahm" (pronounced: Side Arm)? That'd be cool if you were a gun enthusiast
Unfortunate, as that pistol has absolutely beautiful lines, and no doubt worked wonderfully.
Ooh, another video from the fireplace collection!
"Seidel" is pronounced 'Seidl' with the emphasis on the first syllable and the second e barely there.
Yeah, and the "s" at the beginning of a syllabe is pronounced as a (edit to add: USUALLY) "z" in German. Exceptions include "st" and "sp" begin with "sh", not s or z.
Who cares, Ian is speaking English. Most people in America would be confused if he said "Zeidle", so whatever, dude.
@@Face2theScr33n There is no such thing as "pronounced in German" German has as many accents as you could imagine. The "s" in the onset in pronounced s at the onset of a word. But who cares. Keep butchering.
Luckily "Seidel" has a Wiktionary entry with an audio sample: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/De-Seidel.ogg
I was thinking: is it Seidel, Seidl or Seidäl. (Never seen Seidäl, but the way our dear gun jesus says the name it could be a possibility.)
I don't know many gun designers names.
@@speedyjago This is the man: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Seidel
Elegant little pistol 😎
Morning Ian hopefully you're staying safe amid the Pandemic!
Ian drinks whiskey. He is likely fully immunized.
@@davidgreen40 this comment hurts. Please do not drink hard alcohol in copious amounts as a cure all. The whole whiskey prevents flu is a table spoon amount before bed with honey.
@@TriplehddI said nothing about "copious amounts." Absent evidence to the contrary I'm confident Ian drinks "adult beverages" in moderation like every other highly successful adult.
@@davidgreen40 this is true. My mistake, I've seen far too many posts about alcohol being a cure all. I'm sorry for coming off assuming and putting words in your mouth. Hopefully you as well are staying safe and healthy! Enjoy the video
@@Triplehdd oh stop being a boob
I rather like the aesthetics of the HSc
Thank you , Ian
Beautiful design
I like how you pronounce Seidels name as if he is some bad ass gangsta rapper XD
- Like the woodwork ... nobody seem to care about that skill !
Interesting and informative. Both very slick looking pistols.
That is a good looking pistol
Enjoy your videos so much Ian.
I own a cz-24 in .380, it’s fantastic! I highly recommend owning one.
LOL at the *_ya_* at 8:35. Wonder who he is talking to. Bit of a editing mistake to not trim that out completely.
Really reminds me of the Wather PP, and Makarov designs.
so he ends each video with "hopefully you enjoyed the video", Ian could make a video discussing the reason why rabbit turds are round and owls make pellets, and I would give it a thumbs up and watch the whole thing. He is the David Attenborough of the gun world, and for that I thank him.
Beautiful nicely build pistol. To bad it didnt made it.
So sorry the 9 didn't take off. As a fan of the HSc, I'd love a bigger pistol.
I like locked breech pistols. Ian, you should do a video on the Beretta Cougar 8000, and discuss the 92 and Storm for comparison.
strong lock up.
Wonderful video sir. Thank you!
I think Capcom meant to do this version of the Mauser for Ada Wong in Resident Evil 2 Remake since she uses 9mm rather than .380.
I'm surprised that rotating barrels didn't seem to catch on as much. It seems like there aren't any major drawbacks with it. Beretta made some that are said to be the lowest recoiling handguns for a given weight, and even Glock recently made one for German police. I wonder if we'll see it make a comeback in future designs.
Will we ever learn who the mysterious fireplace man is? Or will he remain shrouded in mystery, his legend passed on to following generations?
Ngl, i'm kinda digging this quarantine thing
Why would an exposed barrel be important for the German military?
n0la maybe because it uses less material?
Bulged barrel will not prohibit slide action. Mud obstruction
Possibly because the Luger was considered the way an automatic should look
@@fastmongrel I'm gonna agree with you. They had good pistols with exposed barrels and probably wanted to stick with what they were familiar with.
Less work to retrofit holsters too
Me: Seems very well-made, but also well-thought out, one might even say... *gasp* UN-TEUTONIC!
5:49: (take-down lever inside the trigger guard) Ahhhhh! There it is!
I started to think that the Fireplace Man is like the past forgotten weapons guy and he pass his powers on to Ian.
Kinda like Doctor Who, i guess
Thank you Gun Jesus, very cool!
Why the requirement for the exposed barrel? What was the justification for that?
DSlyde probably to save material
the steel frame single stage SA/DA with decocker in 9mm... this is what I miss on the market these days....
Beretta M9A3 is available.
Man, that HSc is one sexy-looking pistol.
very handsome handguns.
I can’t imagine who’s that one guy, who dislikes the Gun Jesus
Gun judas?
Herodias Anti-gun
Vade retro gatana!
Hillary Clinton
Who?! Who doesn't like the nicest gun guy on the internet?! Face me!
These look like a metal version of Beretta px4 storm.
Given its apparent mechanical simplicity, why wasn't the rotating barrel concept more widely used? I know of the Steyr Model 1912, something by Grand Power today & not many others that have been produced large scale
That is a really nice gun
The first type of safety would be more likely to snag or thwack your thumb when cycling I would think.
So is this an alternative to the HSV prototypes you covered a few years ago? That was the first of your video I watched, its nice to the see there's more to the story.
Prewar German handguns look so beautiful.
But my current P30L is just so much more practical
Ada Wong likes this
Why did militaries require exposed barrels on their service handguns? It was still a factor when the Beretta 92 / M9 was adopted, but now it doesn't seem to be a requirement anymore. What's the idea behind that?
What is the advantage of an exposed barrel?? Why would they want that??
Accuracy would be my guess?
Other than that it seems like a liability additional areas being exposed that could potentially be filled with grit and sand.
Improved cooling/heat distribution under rapid fire.
Tank pistol ports? Just a guess
My guess is they liked their lugers and didn't want a Browning design because he wasn't German.
Pistol ports on armored vehicles.
Eating breakfast just got better
8:35 yeah
Good morning 😊
Good night. It's midnight in Australia.
Some very wealthy folk may own a P-38 Mustang. Some own a Walther P-38. I own a P-38 can opener. :(
My experience with the HSc is that it has a very very heavy DA pull and is a hand biter. The H & K multi caliber version was not any better for me. But they look cool. Maybe no worse than a stock PP in most of those characteristics.
Nice pistol...
The markings are hand engraved like on a pantograph or rollmarked?
can you do a video on exposed barrel vs slide pistols, pros and cons and why not more exposed barrels .
🔥place guy!
Why would the military explicitly ask for an exposed barrel? Cooling? No space for dirt ingress?
ok, never mind 5 people allready asked the same question
Great !
Does the "V" in the serial number stand for, "versuchs", for, "attempt", meaning experimental like it does in aircraft designs?
Yes.
Pity that they never went back to this design for commercial sales.
Title: prototype Mauser pistol...ha! Fireplace man!
the wood seems to be genuinely one piece wrapping around. probably a bit crazy for added expense,but I like it a lot.
An intervju with fireplace guy would be interesting! But he probably like to stay anonymous.
How does this compare to the earlier HSv you covered a couple of years ago? Or is this one of those prototypes?
google "The Girl in the Fireplace" a Doctor Who episode
Ben Wilson “why is there a horse on a spaceship?”
Ian - can you explain the rationale for the exposed barrel requirement? I seem to recall it was quite common for its time but I don't understand why. (and by the way, is that why the M9 has that weird slide?)
Does anyone know why the CZ-24 was built as a locked breach gun? It was only in .380 so simple blow back would’ve sufficed. I always assumed it was so that the design could be scaled up to meet other military requirements (possibly another contract in Europe besides Czechoslovakia) Anyhow, anyone know??? Thanks
Mauser: Boys, Our HSc project's sure be a fine moneymaker for us! Sidel, your design's brilliant! It'd be better if we could make it for the Wehrmacht.
Sidel: Got it!
9mm para, check. Locked-breech system, check. Exposed barrel? Why, okay I got it.
Mauser: Great! Send them on trials!
Wehrmacht: Well, your guns' good and all... It's a bit too expensive, though. Walther's cheaper. Walther wins then.
Mauser: Motherf---..............
And then after WW2, Seidel went on to co-found Heckler & Koch. For some reason his partners got their names in the company name, but he didn't. No idea why.