Why Did the Heretic Leader Fire on the Arbiter? - An Examination of Sesa ‘Refumee
Vložit
- čas přidán 3. 06. 2021
- For years, people have puzzled over why Sesa 'Refumee, the Heretic Leader from Halo 2, fired upon the Arbiter at their final confrontation; especially when it appears as though he was open to listening. Today we answer that question!
Ending music: "John-117" by Teknoaxe
teknoaxe.com/Link_Code_3.php?q...
-----------------Subscribe and Follow!-----------------
Patreon:
/ halocanon
Facebook:
/ halocanon
Twitter:
/ toa_freak - Hry
What if 343 pulled a George Lucas when remastering Halo 2 and made the Arbiter shoot first.
Bruh halo 2 anniversary came out in 2014
Or what if the hermitic was the arbiters father
@@Ori--pw5vw what does that have to do with anything??
@@ToxicCandy116 oh sorry lol i forgot what i meant originally sorry :(
@@Ori--pw5vw probably misread the comment at first as saying "what if they remade the game" like I did.
I think it's funny how people think Thel's playtime in Halo 2 was unnecessary when almost everything that's plot-relevant happens in Thel's missions.
Yeah
Yeah, the Arbiter missions had such a good sense of stakes, and Thel was a great, relatable character. When they tried the parallel storylines with Locke in 5, it was nowhere near as good as 2.
I didint think it was unnecessary I just didint like it
@@Phr8 Halo 5G was such a chore to play through.. It felt as enjoyable as Halo 2 on Legendary with all the skulls on but without the Halo 2 or skulls.. Pretty much terrible and almost 100% objectively un-enjoyable.
@@MediQate The Campaign sucked. But the multiplayer is pretty fun with the advanced movement even though it plays nothing like Halo.
“A single conversation isn’t going to break anyone’s faith”
Unless it lasts for 43 years.
Arbiter's conviction was to strong to be persuaded by conventional means. He needed to find the truth on his own. Sesa did the most critical thing, he planted the seed of doubt.
This is the correct answer and needs more likes.
And (at least in H2A) you can definitely see when he realizes it's been planted. With his purpose fulfilled (though I don't really believe in "destiny"), and the destruction of the station imminent, he decided to shoot and go out in the way desperate Sangheili know how: a blaze of glory.
This is how I explain it whenever someone says Sesa made a dumb move. Thel had literally just became the arbiter and the entire covenant doubted him and some already saw him as a heretic, theres no way he would ruin his one chance at redemption so soon after what happened.
Sesa had no way of knowing Arbiters state of mind. To Sesa, Arbiter was probably another zealous, utterly devoted to the Covenant type of guy. He knew the Arbiter was there to kill him. I would be in a "shoot first" type of mood too.
its like a twitter argument where instead of trying to convince the other your just shoot hot plasma at them
You mean there are twitter arguments where people try to convince each other and don't just hurl white-hot vitriol at each other?
I would think that having a conversation in a building falling to the “surface” of a gas giant is enough reason to say “now’s not the time”.
this is definitely the best, easiest, and obvious explanation for Sesa's actions
And yet people seem to forget that piece of context.
i mean to be fair, gas giants are pretty huge and it would take a LONG time to reach the "surface" or even the next layer of the atmosphere
@@donaldbaird7849 still I would want to get out of there as fast as possible instead of risking it
Then why did he not just start fighting him from the start? Why even start the conversation when he would just start fighting him unprovoked?
If only Sesa lived, maybe he and Thel would have lead the Swords of Sanghelios together.
That would have been great
They did if you read the book
@@KetchupPankaka how if he's dead.
What.
:(
I think it's his brother who works with arbiter.
"our victory...your victory was so close... i wish you could have lived to see it"
I wonder if there’s a monument for Sesa somewhere on Sanghelios as a form of martyr memorial. That would be neat, seeing as he is technically a “good guy.”
Nicky Lorenz
In the books Sesa's brother joined the swords of sanghelios and if i remember correctly he was given a high rank or something else by the arbiter himself as a way to honor Sesa
@@mr.spiderman8104 and he was the inventor of the Sanghelian Sesame
@@mr.spiderman8104 he died what do you mean if your right that book is not cannon so it does not matter
@@mr.spiderman8104 he died what do you mean if your right that book is not cannon so it does not matter
I think people need to understand, the arbiter literally stared face to face with the gravemind and was shown the truth with a very... Poetic and disturbing puppet show and still only fully converted when he was teleported to delta halo and saw what the brutes had done to his kind.
I think the extent of Thel’s fanaticism was the biggest reason his redemption throughout the series was so satisfying.
for a station free falling into a planet we sure do get a lot of time to escape haha
You have to realize Threshold is a gas giant nearly twice as large as Jupiter. While Earth's atmosphere is only a few dozen miles thick, a gas giant the size of Threshold would be thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of miles thick. Of course, gas giants don't really have a "surface", therefore the mining platform would continue to fall until the atmospheric pressure reaches a point where the platform would be crushed under the extreme pressure. I don't know the exact numbers but I would say that the platform being in freefall wouldn't actually be that much of an imminent threat because it would've taken hours, maybe even days before the atmospheric pressure reached a critical point.
But hey, it's a video game.
@@Syntherios you also have to realize that "space" as we think of it as, was created by nasa which means to deceive in Hebrew after operation paperclip in the 1940s after ww2 ended and that everything we "know" and "see" is propaganda and CGI to hide the fact that God exists and that it just isn't as old as we're told it is nor can we actually leave the plane due to the firmament above.
@@aliveintruth lol
@@aliveintruth I hope we defeat the Forerunners, to honour ancient Humanity.
@@aliveintruth nice troll bro
I always chalked it down that sesa thought thel was far to gone to believe what guilty spark would have said.
OR, having the Arbiter and the Heretic team up right then and there would make their combined forced too overpowered to the point were they would have never considered allying with Humanity. 343 might protest, but theres nothing he could have done. This also happened in the Halo books.
As it turns out, the Elites escaped High Charity with V A S T fleets of ships and they rallied together under command of who was basically the Elite God-Emperor, but then some Grunt blew them all up.
@@jakespacepiratee3740 when that happened you know somewhere in background a trombone played.
@@masterarchersreviews439 Nah it was for the best. That armada would have wiped out Humanity and the Brutes and activated the Rings. Its for the best that they suffered this loss, otherise Humanity would have been screwed.
@@jakespacepiratee3740 oh absolutely but the comedy of it is just worth the trombone.
Your pfp is a lie
I like to believe Sesa knew he was going to die when the Thel stopped him boarding the fighter so he had planted seeds of doubt about the great journey.
Because he hated waiting for the cutscene to end.
Also, plot wise at least, if the Thel defected that early, he wouldn’t have had enough of a following from his fellow Sanghelli, thus the Great Schism may have either never happened. Maybe no other significant portion of Elites would have severed their allegiance to cause the fall of the Covenant.
They would have since their loyalty to the arbiter still stands stronger over the prophets
Wish CEA on MCC kept the end credits scene. Been years since I’ve seen it. I also wish all of the bonus terminals for CEA, Halo 2: Anniversary, and Halo 4 were available to watch in-game.
Same
Same here, especially in regards to terminal 11 from CEA. The only version of that I have is in 720p and looks terrible, but I can't go and get a new version or anything...
I've always been of the mind that Sesa knew he wasn't going to convert Thel, and that he believed that the best he could do was plant the seeds of doubts. I think he knew that having Spark want to talk to Thel then denying the chance would help him be more open to what Spark would have to say when the time would come for them to actually talk to eachother. That gamble Sesa took in his desperation payed off in the end as once Thel finally had a chance to talk to Spark, everything that had happened to him to that point allowed him to accept the lightbulb's words without question.
Hey why dont we theorize what would happen if Sesa escaped
One way this can be perceived in-universe:
Heretic: The Oracle knows, that’s why I must leave.
Arbiter: You must comeback with me, you will stand trial.
Heretic: That’s death for both of us. (Shoots Arbiter)
The biggest questions in gaming:
What happened during Half Life 3's development?
Is there a 7th chest in the Vault of Glass?
Why the hell did the Heretic Leader shoot at the Arbiter when the Gravemind easily de-indoctrinated him?
Keep in mind Arbiter was betrayed before he met Gravemind so
@@blackrose8418 Keep in mind Arbiter was betrayed before he met 343 so...
"We know you are no heretic."
Yeah.
@@TheElderStunt wtf?
Remember that it took thel seeing the brutes slaughter the elites at the prophets command for him to fully break.
@@TheElderStunt correction my friend.. you mean 2401 penitent tangent not 343 guilty spark
How i would have had The Heretic to go:
Given that Sesa Refumee has deemed Thel Vadam his friend (from Terminals), it would be more fitting if he hadn't shot at Arby first. When the Arbiter sees Guilty Spark, the Heretic and Spark explain begin to explain to Arby about the Halo array and how the Great Journey is a lie. However, mid way through, Tartarus appears and opens fire on The Heretic. The Heretic, enraged and thinking that his friend, the Arbiter, has betrayed him and led Covenant reinforcements over, proceeds to open fire on the Arbiter and Tartarus's phantom. Tartarus flies away and the Heretic and Arbiter engage in the same mini boss fight they have in the game. In his dying breath, he warns Arbiter on the Prophets' true intent, and to be wary of the validity of the Great Journey. Guilty Spark repeats his same lines as in the cutscene before being magnetised by Tartarus's hammer, who has now landed his Phantom. Tartarus drags the Heretic's body, and throws him over the platform. The story continues the same exact way, just that this expands the "friendship" between Sesa and Thel, as the former mentioned in the cutscene. Additionally, the Arbiter has more of a reason to doubt the great Journey, and doesn't simply switch sides jsut because the Gravemind told him to
Well he still didn't switch sides even after listening to the Gravemind. The Gravemind sent Thel away via teleportation when the Jiralhanae and other Covenant loyalists started really massacring his people. At that point, why would he go back to the prophets? Especially after Tartarus told him "They *ordered* me to do it."
Nah just have arbiter open fire first
Please do more of these for other questionable/confusing moments!
I definitely plan to! If you have any suggestions, let me know!
Excellent video! I’ve always asked myself that question.
Good vid! Thanks for that👍
After studying his movements, it seems like he was using guilty spark to distract the arbiter and tried to get a lucky shot in while his guard was down
Think of this. How many times have you tried to calmly explain something to someone while providing evidence and showing examples. Only for them to Double down and adamantly ignore everything you've said. Maybe he realized that arbiter being such a zealot he had no choice but to shoot. The same thing happened with tartarus in the same game.
"How many times have you tried to calmly explain something to someone while providing evidence and showing examples. Only for them to Double down and adamantly ignore everything you've said."
Every time.
Exactly what happens at the end of the game with Thel and Tartarus. Tartarus knew the truth but chose not to believe it after guilty spark told him of it
Arbiter remembered him till the end of the War, perhaps he even had regret, otherwise why he would use the line: "And so... You must be silenced" to Truth right before he killed him? The same line the prophet gave Arbiter when ordering him to kill the Heretic Leader.
I love how we're STILL getting to the bottom of how great halo 2's story details are.
And holy gosh i love the voice of Arby and Rtas
This is a great question. Thank you for covering it! I think those points you brought up were rather good. Makes me wish they had elaborated on them to explain the fight.
If possible, I'd like you to elaborate on two more plot holes to elaborate:
- One of them, how did Regret learn of the location of Delta Halo. I recall a terminal where it showed Erde Tyrene, and Regret eagerly led his fleet there, and being caught by surprise when seeing the UNSC Home Fleet. Perhaps it was another discovery from that same Luminary?
- Another, and more of a personal one, why the Prophet of Truth went mad in Halo 3, to the point of genuinely believing his own lies about the Great Journey, in particular after having started the Covenant War because of it, AND having had 343 Guilty Spark with him. I wish 343 Industries would release a novel to show Truth's descent into madness, and why his psyche devolved into insanity.
1. The same luminary that had the location of Earth also had the locations of all the remaining Halo rings. Regret just happened to jump to Installation 05.
2. I don't think anyone has the answer to that one, sadly. Still, it would be fun to talk about, if nothing else. I definitely would love a novel (or maybe short story) exploring him more.
I always thought he just got radio chatter that phantoms were heading over to their location and there wasn't enough time..
Thanks.😊
30 seconds ago eh? I see it. Also I'm still saying Pierce Brosnan for Keys.
That short conversation sparked Arbiters doubts against the covenant, some would say the changing of the guard which did play a part, it’s crazy that truth and Tartarus have been planning to cause the great schism since 2525 whenever truth became a Prophet, I like how Arbiter was still loyal to the covenant even after Tartarus revealed the true intentions of the prophets plan and it only took Sesa and what gravemind and seeing dead elite bodies to make him believe the doubts that were previously showed to him by sesa which lead to him asking 343 about Halo which he should have done before Sesa’s death but his only concern was Redemption
Imagine how much more interesting it would've been if he was kept prisoner, and that Arbiter visited him in prison on high charity just after Chief killed the Prophet of Regret, where Sesa would explain further into Halo and the forerunners, making Arbiter question his faith more. Cutscene leads to the famous exchange of hats, another point for Arbiter to see the elites are being treated unjustly and that his faith may be wrong. This addition would make the betrayal of the prophets much more deep than it already was.
Would’ve probably been killed but if not definitely would’ve made an interesting story. During the flood outbreak on high charity he would’ve escaped and came back in another game.
@@timezone107740 I'd be okay with his eventual death, so long as it was after his hypothetical meeting with Arbiter before Quarantine Zone
Short, sweet and to the point, I like it. Not to say I don't like your longer works.
I try not to let a subject overstay it's welcome :)
Short answer: for plot
They wouldn’t even have enough time to talk as the entire facility was plummeting into the gas giant
I always thought the reason he fired at the Arbitor was he was worried if an Arbitor was to join his ranks, he would loose his position as the leader as everyone would flock to an Arbitor within this roll.
i actually liked the sesa but seeing as short a time span he had i understand why he didnt try to talk thel down even though he was more than likely open to hearing what guilty spark and sesa had to say
Sesa knew Thel was sent to kill him and being the arbiter these missions are how he redeems himself in the eyes of the covenant. Also look at how Thel was a loyal badass before becoming Arbiter he believed in the prophets and the covenant until the Oracle a creation from the gods tells him otherwise. This is why you are my favorite halo content creator the questions you ask but the fact that when you cover one you also cover every possible scenario of why the outcome was the way it was. You better keep up the good work literally you and mike Mitchell a farmer from Canada are the only things I watch on CZcams anymore. My whole point being is Sesa knew that it was gonna take someone more legendary then him to actually start a civil war in the covenant and there was no changing the arbiters mind at that time he just had to plant the seeds in his mind at let them go to work even if he does.
Sometimes for the dream to live, the dreamer must die
Okay without even watching past 1:30 i can say for anyone wondering, there are terminals that detail parts of Sesa's discussion with 343 Guilty Spark. He pretty much says that any arbiter would do the prophet's bidding to the letter, even if there was a shadow of doubt in the mind of the arbiter, sesa believes him to be in a position which does not allow him to come home empty handed. Not only that but at the time of the fight, the station is in free-fall and time is short for the both of them. On top of all that, both parties are aware that a there are covenant ships everywhere and there is probably slim chance of survival if this takes too long. Thats the way arbiter played his hand, he cut the cables in order to scare Sesa out of the hangar, then fight him and even if he didnt kill him, tartarus would have, or the fall would have. So it totally makes sense for a guy in a Sesa's position to shoot first and try to escape. Especially since he didnt think arbiter would doubt the prophets at all. Perhaps Sesa believed he was the sangheili's only hope
Most likely because the whole installation was falling to the planets core and wants to get out of there quickly.
its a good old case of
"im not going to be the dead one"
but if refumee has waited just a bit long
it could of been so different
Yooo I have played ce since 2001 and I had no idea there was an after credit scene
I'm pretty sure he just assumed the Arbiter was far too gone to be converted.
Surrender is the height of dishonor to the sangheli
I still feel bad for sesas men that was left on the station
I guess it’s the usual “because it’s cool”, “for the shock value” etc.
From a real-world perspective, absolutely. But I hate resorting to that unless absolutely necessary :)
It always made perfect sense why he opened fire on the Arbiter. Idk why anyone would even question it.
Try convincing the 50% of republicans that believe Trump won in 2020 that Trump actually lost to Biden. Now imagine having this discussion with guns pointed at each other and a 10 minute timer on a nuke.
I know this isn’t related to the topic but I just thought it’s something important the status of HALO BATTLE BORN third instalment in the series and what’s going on with it ?
It’s just it’s a really a great story I really hope they continue and i loved reading the first 2 books when I was getting stressed with school and college work I would just take a moment and read a bit of them to calm me down and I really really want to know what happens to EVE, Saskia, Doreen, Victor and Owen will Saskia find out what happens to her parents she come across them and what’s next for them
I’m sure Sese was also pretty aware of who Thel was even before he carried the title of arbiter. Just based off his previous military feats.
If I saw an opening, I’d take it lol
I have always wondered why he did that and also wondered how the story would have changed had he not fired upon arby
Sesa would have died regardless.
@@crazy13alex why?
This is something that has always confused me. If the the Heritic leader had just let the Oracle explain he could have the teamed with the Arbiter.
Feels more like an instinctive thing
Sesa was probably angry at Thel for eradicating all his Heretic friends, at that point he was done trying to convert him and just wanted revenge. Can't really blame the guy, he'd spent weeks amassing a cult of followers only for them to be wiped out in one day, that must have stung
I thought it said "why did the hectic leader fire on the arbiter"
In one of the terminals the heretic believed the the arbiter would of been the only elite to listen to him. But once the arbiter became the arbiter the heretic knee there would be no way to convince him.
Well as Haruspis pointed out someone had to hold the 'idiot ball' or else everyone would come to an understanding and there would be no conflict. In halo 2, these people are Sesa and Tartarus.
Why did a mine have the flood in it?
I dont think he would have let the Arbiter take him alive cos i think he said something along the line he would rather die by the Arbiter then the prophets kill him. After that line pretty sure Sesa was planning on one of the them dying.
What if Sesa told Thel that they need to get out before the place crashes, and once they’re away from danger he’d be happy to answer any questions on the condition that Thel gives him a fair trial then and there, not with the Prophets? Thel seems like the type of person who would listen to someone like Sasa if given the opportunity.
Wished he lived to see it somehow..
This is the one thing in halo, even the first time playing, that always confused me. He was about to have a Oracle tell him the truth. The big question is no longer "who shot first?", which we all know who did but, Why did he shoot?
Now I can die in peace
Poorly sesa refumee he was a good guy in the end
Not only that but the flood are literally right behind Arbiter in the room before the boss fight. Seeing as you the player probably killed the last of the heretics in that part of the station but with more flood on the way they can’t be allowed to escape on the fighter.
Why did guilt spark go to the mine?
lol All they had to do was just have Thel shoot first instead, that could even mirror Tartarus' response to Thel at the end of the game
if only there were more time
I think if he hadn’t fired, there would be great changes in the story.
Was that a Marathon sound effect at 7:29?
Also, another wrinkle in their relationship: Remember that Sesa 'Refumee didn't just defect from the Covenant; he defected from Thel 'Vadamee's fleet. As Supreme Commander of the Fleet of Particular Justice, Thel bears the final responsibility for the conduct of all troops under his command, and any loss of morale or faith would likely be considered a failure on his part.
How much do you think Sesa thought Thel would be willing to listen the moment he saw him as the Arbiter? He probably thought the Arbiter would be extra gung-ho to bring him in just to make up for that cherry-on-top of his failure of duty.
Am sad that we never got to fight any humans as arbiter in H2 its either covenant reskined covenant or the flood.
I think at the end of the day it was an arbiter they sent after him. Basically he would now be hunted for the rest of his life even if he did survive. The arbiters are also traditionally hardcore covenant believers
A single conversation definitely could have swayed him! Sesa was swayed in a conversation. Thel is already labeled a heretic and has even less to lose at that point. He already lost faith in the covenant. Spark would have been the spark to ignite Thels fight early.
Thel Vadam did kill many of Sesa’s forces…
Me: sees title
Also me: bc the the game would be over🤨
The same logic is applied to when Tartarus attacked the arbiter at the end of the game.
Why didn’t Tartarus take the out Thel gave him when 343 literally told them the rings were a weapon that destroys all life?
If Sessa kills you he rejoices in your death. Sessa saw himself as a visionary that was going to save the elites and killing an Arbiter would put stock into his claim.
Tho Sesa may have been executed sooner or later when captured (even tho Thel believed he was on a one way trip with the station) if Rtas was the one to have reached the Arbiter first and bear witness to the conversation between Spark, Sesa and Arbiter, perhaps it would've gone differently. However, this point is moot since Tartarus reached them first, and would've most likely executed Sesa on the spot (perhaps that was his intention of being there in case Thel failed). But there is an alternative. Sesa could've recorded himself and Spark on those holo-drones and either deliberately hand it to Thel or self propelled it too him. It would've been great to see Sesa broadcasting propaganda throughout the station against the raiding party more often with his holo-drones to communicate his evidence throughout the missions before his encounter with Thel. Obviously the Spec Ops force would dismiss it all as propaganda. But ultimately the Arbiter would bear witness to the truth at the end of the mission. It may or may not have made a difference.
Si le sabes.
As a kid I hated playing as arbiter, but it turns out he is one of the best characters in the whole franchise
Moral of the story: When you don't have enough room in your vehicle kill the other person you could take with you.
Thel wasn’t yet disillusioned with the Prophets and the Covenant, he was on a mission of retribution. Sesa initially tried to sway him and even gets Spark to allude to the falsehood of the Covenant. But Sesa knows that Thel is there to kill him and that if He succeeds the rest of the Sangheili won’t hear the truth.
I can only imagine the guilt Thel feels once he learns the truth, thanks to Tartarus’s incompetent betrayal.
I think that he couldve used Guilty Spark intervention as an opportunity to sneak attack Arbiter
I just dont understand why they would have Sesa get Guilty Spark to start to explain why the Covenant is wrong, only to immediately shoot him the second he opens his mouth when Arbiter had no protests
Could chalk it up at “Cause he’s fucking dumb.” And still be right lmao
Infinite drought got I'll at the bottom of the barrel
Wait... Your telling me we play as different elites in halo2? I thought we just play as that arbiter guy
In a gun fight, it's either you or them. Period.
Damn I wish hed have escaped and come back to aid arbiter with the swords later.
Ah well, spilled milk, no tears.
Yes, I still think that the biggest reason why Sesa attacked the Arbiter was because he knew that Tel'Vadam had become the Arbiter, and perhaps he knew how much Tel believed in the Great Journey. It is logical )
To save his life 😳
If he didn't feel he had enough time then why did he even bother starting the conversation about the truth in the first place?
A distraction.
Super off topic!
Is there any canon explanation of why during the arc mission in halo 3 when the forward unto dawn arrives from the space battle everything in the ground goes flying except for the máster chief?
Chief's just built different.
Chief took cover
That's an oddity of the physics engine, honestly. I hate resorting to real-world explanations, but sometimes it's all you have.
You could headcanon that the Chief took cover, but then you have a bunch of marines who were out in the open and unaffected by the Dawn's arrival...
@@HaloCanon Well, the AI's of the marines weren't scripted and its just a game so it doesn't mather much at all. But sometimes the marines do fly away by the wind from dawns arrival and so do master chief aswell. (Depending where u stand).
@@LetsCommentator Very true, but you can also be standing right next to an object that flies away while the Chief remains stationary.
Because it didn’t matter, Sesa was smart enough to know that with all the eyes on Thel redeeming himself to the covenant, no information would change his mind. Also Sesa did say “I rather die by your hands than let the prophets lead me to slaughter.”
It should also be noted that Sesa was aware Thel and the rest of his team were sent their specifically to kill him.
*_"I wondered who the prophets would send to silence me an Arbiter I'm flattered."_*
*_"He's using a holodrone come out so we may kill you"_*
*_"Haha get in line"_*
That was an in game exchange between Rtas and Sesa mind you. But still they had made it clear they wanted him dead, Rtas even continues to tell Thel to find Sesa and to kill him not capture but kill him.