The Flash's Armageddon Crossover Is AWFUL but also Sometimes Kinda Great
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- Armageddon... good? bad? great? best Flash has been in years? just as bad as season 7??? Idk find out in this review of the Flash's Arrowverse crossover event Armageddon.
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Cavanagh plays Thawne brilliantly. Unfortunately, the use of the Wells persona as a disguise ran its course long ago, and no longer makes sense. The justification in Crisis on Earth X was actually acceptable, and possibly extending to the Cicada arc. After that, it should have been all Letscher, no more excuses.
Me personally, after Season 3 with Flashpoint, and LOT Season 2, we shouldn’t have gotten Thawne anymore (until the last season where we see a younger one wearing Matt’s face). TBH, they never truly explained how he was able to re-appear after the Black Flash thing when he showed up in Earth X. But that’s when it all started to not make sense. Unless it’s in a flash back from Season 1 and before, Tom as Thawne should have never happened anymore.
Matt Letscher should have been playing him in Season 6 and 7 and after they got what they came for from Reverse Flash in the 100th episode of Season 5, then they should have had Matt play the character.
Thank you! Like I love Tom but Matt would have made a lot more sense since everyone knows that Wells is dead on earth one so why keep him face?
@@smarvysmarv8735 yeah that definitely make sense to me. I was wondered how he was alive and how Black Flash had found him and what time period he was from.
@@trevturp7687 definitely.
Alex here: “Why don’t you love love?”
Alex in her previous appearance: “No touching without consent”.
Do they bring the same guy to write all this stupid dialogue specifically for Alex???
If you watch fate then you know that "people die when they are killed"
Alex's writer changes his hair color every month.
I think a better question is what is alexs writer smokin every day? What kind of drogs is he or she on?
She lowkey sucks now
@@NeroLeMorte wait which fate?
Honestly I’m just happy the flash is watchable again. I will admit episode 5 was easily the weakest
No ep4 was
Ep 5 could have been a little bit better if Barry was te one talking to Mia instead of Iris talking to Mia
Episode 4 was probably the weakest with the annoying Chester-Allegra plot and cringey Ryan and Alex side plot
I would reckon episode 1 was the weakest
I personally enjoyed episode 4 and 5
@@davidabhulimen4530 understandable. Imo the best part of episode 5 was the gold boots
The only thing I absolutely despised about Armageddon was Joe. He really came back just to make Barry and Iris try to save Thawne, despite the fact he killed Barry’s mom and manipulated Iris’ boyfriends and in the other timeline Nora’s deaths?! Why would he make them feel bad about that? That wasn’t like his character at all. Even Caitlin was on board.
Woulda been great if Barry responded with a Merlyn like he deserves to die
When Joe thought Harry was Thawne in season 2 he shot at him 3 times with no hesitation.
Acted fantastic in the scene though.
@@jacobcenter7374 Yea because Thawne took everything and Joe isn't a super hero
Barry is a hero Who has never taken a life before. Even his worst enemies he still tried to help .
Barry never k1lled anyone
Even If the timeline was Going to kill Thawne they were literally deciding if they should just let.Joe knew everything thawne did and knows he's a monster So he told them to find another way Chain him up. If anything that's good writing it shows Pa pa Joe is being just that A Dad
@X-777 More joe put the two people he raised in their place.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Cecile and her outburst at Iris in Episode...2 or 3...I forgot which one. The one where Iris is investing her father's death and Cecile just yelled at her like Joe did to her and Barry in Episode 5.
As much as I missed Joe in the first four episodes, after his outburst in Episode 5...I was thinking; where's a train Thawne could just push him in front of again...
Lmao exactly, it would’ve been better if he stayed dead if he was gonna change like that. Cecile had more growth than him💀
@@thereaper6754 EXACTLY he needs to take his baby mama and never seen on screen baby and get the heck out of Central City...
@@OurKindofEntertainment never seen on screen baby 😂 😭😭😭
The second Joe shouted at Barry and Iris I started shouting at my screen "You tried to shoot Harry who you thought was Thawne" It was a really bad moment
@@mahdrashid8670 The writers forgot 😂
I looked at it like this; Alex's appearance brought with it the same unnecessary romantic sidestory crap that is usually at the front of a Supergirl storyline.
"Why don't you love love?" sounded like it was ripped right off of the script of a Supergirl episode HAHA
@X-777 heck what was the time jump 10 years into the future right? And they still couldn't give her at least a MASK to go with the costume...
@X-777 it would be better if no supergirl character showed up in the crossover. Supergirl and all of its character suck monkey ass and I'm glad that show is over.
Clearly National City has a sappy and insipid culture.
@@tylee2358 Very true. They could have made that show so cool with the space and future aspects but ruined it with crappy dialogue.
Yeah and at the end of crisis Ryan Choi was with his kid and he said he had a wife
Seriously Allegra and Chester becoming a couple was random, unnecessary, and completely forced!
Those two are the most pointless characters ever!
Ong tho, felt very forced fr
The characters themselves are random, unnecessary, and completely forced.
@@killah_disciple1 sigh 😔 yeah and in the comics Allegra and Chester are so much Better
Chester seems like Eric Wallace's self insert to me.
Tom Cavanagh looked like a dork in the new Reverse Flash costume. They need to not only bring back Matt Letscher, but also the original suit.
The new suits look cheap compared to the older ones
@@sanjeevan9831 very true
Team Flash: Knows how to defeat the main character when they think he's the villain
Also Team Flash: Struggles capturing a D-list villain
I would have liked if Matt Letscher returns. I can understand where Joe is coming from, I just felt should have been elaborated a bit more than yelling.
It really came off as forced, joe never yelled at his a kids during his time on the show and if he did it was for a good reason, almost Felt Like a Ghost of Christmas Past or some shit, just acting out of character because the ghost thinks he would act that way.
And also remember this Joe never yelled at Barry when he wanted to kill Hunter Zolomon after what, kidnapping Wally and Caitlyn, almost crippling him in their first encounter parading him like a deer corpse around the city and especially after murdering his finally released father from prison in front of him to prove a point.
Joe never raised his voice even when he had the opposing viewpoint.
Before Armageddon I wasn't excited to see this new season. Now I do want to see what happens next in March. I'd consider that a win for the show.
March?!😭Noooooo!
The Armageddon Arc is not even close to how good the first 2 seasons of The Flash are but is MUCH BETTER than Season 7
True
we dont talk about season 7
@@cyberalex1036 agreed
Imo Armageddon was fun, exciting, and way better than s7 and I really hope the rest of the season stays that way
@@drasticpx7375 right? after season 3 people were tired of speedsters so they did villians like thinker cicada etc but now obviously we want speedsters back but godspeed was so disappointing on another level
I thought this arc/event was pretty good. It was the best story in my opinion since the bloodwork arc back in season 6. Barry was absolutely amazing, he was fast and strong and confident and powerful and was really using his powers in unique and cool ways and was the main focus of the whole event and really felt like his comic counterpart; and he finally got the gold boots and they look amazing. Damien Darhk was once again a great character regardless of the confusing parts in part 5. Some of the team ups were great like Ray Palmer and Black Lightning. Despero was a good and powerful villain for this event and I loved how it was Thawne messing with the timeline that was causing Armageddon. However there definitely were some low points that weren’t good. I wish they used Despero a little more. A lot of the time travel stuff didn’t really make sense I suggest watching the CZcamsr Airricksreloaded’s reviews on parts 4 & 5 he covers all the issues I had with the time travel. Some of the team ups weren’t needed for the plot and outcome like Mia (even though I do want to see the Green Arrow and the Canaries storyline continued and resolved) and the 2031 appearances because there was setup and character moments that didn’t matter especially since the timeline was erased and changed. This wasn’t the best crossover and wasn’t the best arc of the show but it’s not the worst crossover and wasn’t the worst arc of the show. This definitely was a good storyline.
the writers in cw have murdered Alex Danvers as a character.
Faxxx
Yes men! I fuckin LOVED her in S1 and S2!
Anyone remember when she got kidnapped in S2 E19 and how she dealt with it? She was so fuckin badass but something abt her annoys me now (except for Esme)
@@NimueG pre-crisis Alex >>>>>>>> post-crisis Alex
Joe yelling at Barry and Iris had the same crazy energy as Cecile. What the heck was going on? Take it down a notch. Armageddon crossover 5/10
Maybe Cecile used her mind powers on him Charles Xavier style.
It’s not a bad story but it could of been executed so much better if it wasn’t made by THESE writers
This show would be better if it was on HBO/HBOMAX and was exclusively written by The Flash’s BEST comic book writers like Mark Waid, Cary Bates, Francis Manapul etc, and was being produced + made by Bruce Timm and Andrea Ramero
Even Netflix would make the Flash show way better than the CW
It would be better off on HBO Max forsure because they’d have more resources and a way higher budget with better actors but just because someone is good at writing comics does not mean they can write for a live action show. For example look at geoff johns, his comic storylines are always so damn good but when he gets involved in live action stuff it tends to suck. Writing for comics as opposed to tv/movies just isn’t the same
@@jeremyroberts8822 it’s a bit too late to replace actors unless you kill everyone off though…. I also think Grant Gustin as Barry was pretty good
I thought that the scene between thwane and Caitlin was one of the most well done and reasonable scenes in the crossover
Same
Since Barry erased Thawne's timeline, canonically the only episode that happened is episode 5 and canonically the only cameo appearances were Mia Queen, Damian Darhk, and Nora Darhk.
I felt like the arc peaked at episode 3 but then shot straight down after that. The building up was amazing but the pay off was terrible. They were building up thawne's big revenge and we were wondering how and why he conducted his plan but then in the first few minutes of the plan he just told everything in a giant monologue. It would have been great to toy with barry and pretend that he had no idea as to what thawne was talking about and make barry look even more crazy and villainous. And not to mention they pulled a COIE and resolved the entire plot before the event ended and then had the last episode deal with the aftermath which is annoying because when you resolve the whole story before the event ends it stops all of the momentum and that's what happened for episode 5. Episode 5 felt tacked on and the development of Despero being the final villain felt so rushed as well.
I personally thought they did great with this arc. There were a few side stories (namely in episodes 4 and 3) that I didn’t like, but it wasn’t bad enough to stop watching.
THANK YOU I was waiting for someone to call out that Joe scene. Like he was acting like Barry and Iris were killing Thawne and that it would be the start of darkness for them. Like I know it would be the altruistic thing to do but they is no reason other than that to save him. He brought this upon his himself, he will never stop being evil and trying to ruin Barry’s life, speed power or not.
Spider Man No Way Home does a better job convincing the audience why the hero should save the villain even after said villain has killed a loved one of the hero. To watch that movie for a better execution of that argument
I thought Choi was gay because most characters are on these shows
Yep :(
I’m sort of mixed. On the one hand it was the best story in years, on the other hand the story makes no sense and contradicts itself. Overall it’s an 8/10 from me
I wouldn’t say it was the “best story in years”, but it was decent for the most part. There were some great parts but then some awful ones
I felt like they didn’t think the story out. How can Thawne go back in time, and replace himself with Barry by getting struck by lightning, but a past version of him is already there running star labs. Like, did he fight himself?
@@smarvysmarv8735 maybe it was barry running star labs lmao
It was great until Episode 4 where Chester and Allegra began having cringy scenes together.
Also unrelated, but I'm super excited for the potential Gotham Knights show.
It's been made by the same people who made Batwoman. So I have 0 expectations from it
Excited for it to be bad? Cause that's all the CW does. Make terrible shows.
@@nathanieldiaz5254 Yeah, just like Superman&Lois and Stargirl.
@@diegojimenezaguado5421 those are HBO max created but theyre shown on CW to get more ppl to watch them
@@matthewhayward6072 If HBOMax created them, they would be shown FIRST on HBOMax. PEACEMAKER is an HBOMax show. SUPERMAN&LOIS and STARGIRL are CW shows. That's why they air FIRST on CW. Why is so hard for you to understand?
I’m a little mixed with the execution of the joe scene… Joe west is a father and I believe with that in mind he wouldn’t want his children to abandon the “optimistic heroic” mindset that they’ve established for their tenure. Even though it’s a good form of development and understandable moment for joe, it’s the extra pieces that make it fall apart. He was bred a cop and because this is the REVERSE FLASH, he would at least been neutral or against saving eobard. Normally he is moral voice of the team so I understood the intent but it was poorly executed. They’re trying to set something up for Caitlyn later on in the season what if this was her moment to be the “voice of reason”? Beginning of the crossover she mentioned she wanted to finally move on from firestorm. It may not work that well but it may just be a little better than what we got. (Earlier scene may have to be changed a little - dialogue)
Bro I'd honestly be fine with a season 9 and 10 as long as we finally get to see pre season 1 wells and at the very end see barry fight wells and stop him from killing barry as a kid
I agree that the reverse flash needs to be killed off.
To be honest Armageddon was actually pretty cool. It was Thawne's backstory that ruined it for me. Also what the hell is up with Ryan Choi's suit?!
thawne's backstory is accurate
Tom Cavanagh is fantastic as Reverse Flash, but I agree that Matt Letscher deserves way more appreciation than he gets. He got to play Thawne in Legends of Tomorrow S2 and it was great
Can anybody explain the logic behind thawn’s plan? So first he goes back 6 months and kills joe, then returns to the present and attacks the city wearing Barry’s face. Somehow Barry still has his memory’s from the timeline that should have been completely erased, so he decides to go to the future to see Armageddon for himself. Upon arrival, he finds out he has somehow gone from a now nonexistent time line to an alternate future where thawne killed him as a kid, creating an entire flashpoint. If Thawnes plan was to kill kid Barry and change the timeline, why did he start by killing joe in the present, only to erase that whole timeline anyway? And how does Barry remember the original timeline that was erased despite everybody else forgetting? Speaking of Barry, where is the evil reverse flash Barry of this new timeline? Based on the fact that Barry had his ring and reverse flash suit, our we to assume our Barry just took the body of alternate future Barry? There are a dozen instances of time travel in the show where he interacts with his past or future self. In the savitar arch, Barry goes to the future and talks to his future self, he didn’t just take over his future body with his past mind. I feel like I’m the only one who watched Armageddon and couldn’t see anything but giant glaringly obvious plot holes, and it’s driving me crazy.
I had tons of questions:
1. How did Barry become the Reverse Flash in this timeline? I get Thawne being the Flash but he basically killed Barry as a child so how did the Reverse Flashpoint Barry even become Reverse Flash?
2. In this timeline does Iris not remember being childhood friends with Barry even if he died as a child.
3. Why does Thawne still need the Wells face? If he killed Barry as a child does that mean he never killed the original Wells? Why does no one else even question him being Harrison Wells?
3. How does Thawne killing Barry as a child only affect the timeline in 2031?
@@Remix-pr4xd Exactly! it's like I can't watch and enjoy the show when there's clearly so many questions and plotholes being completely and entirely ignored. The problem is the writers know they can get away with it because 98% of their remaining fanbase at this point don't have the brain power to question or even notice these things.
Armageddon
Pros: despero was a really good villain.
Barry was way more compident and badasss then season 7.
The storyline with the reverse flash was pretty great.
Demian dark was a great addition.
The team ups with the atom, black lightning and Mia Queen were awesome.
The fx were really good for the flash (mosly despero's form and the last fight between Barry and despero)
Cons: the love theme in episode 4 is shit.
The team up with Alex, ryan and batwoman wasn't good.
The side characters are mosly annoying.
The writing, cinematography and directing are still not good.
Overall I'll give the crossover 8/10.
The Flash big bads ranked
1. Reverse-Flash
2. Zoom
3. Bloodwork
4. Thinker
5. Savitar
6. Despero
7. Godspeed
8. Speed Force
9. Mirror Monarch
10. Cicada
11. Grace Gibbons
Savitar is better than Bloodwork and Thinker
@@GameZone-ib7eu Savitar - unique speedster design, but not enough screentime for Grant Gustin's potrayal of the character as his reveal was really dragged out for too long compared to Thawne and Zoom
Thinker - a pretty good rivalry with Barry as he framed Barry and temporarily took Ralph away from him. The only problem with DeVoe was the body swap
Bloodwork - a very good rivalry and connection to Barry as his storyline culminates into one of the best episodes of The Flash ever in 6x07: "The Last Temptation of Barry Allen, Pt. 1"
Dude you can feel how you want about tom still being thawn but you gotta admit that new suit is so cool
You know a show isn’t good anymore when you root for the villain!
I had rooted for the villain in season 3. And that was one of the good season.
It's obvious what'll end up happening. Thawne will use being without his speed to manipulate them and make them underestimate him, trick them into giving them his speed back somehow then escape again hopefully killing Joe and rubbing how naive Joe was to tell Barry to save him before he does. I hope he kills Iris too.
@@Xehanort10 exactly
@@GameZone-ib7eu Season 3 was not good.
@@nathanieldiaz5254 it wasn't great but wasn't bad either. Compared to the following seasons, season 3 was good enough
While this was probably the most engaging and the most "Flashy" The Flash's ever been in a really long while, there certainly were some issues that are hard to ignore.
I did like Barry teaming up with Ray and it gave the character a way more dignified ending than what he got in Legends.
It was nice seeing Mia again, but i was hoping to get more of an actual closure to her story if they are really not planning on giving her a proper spin off, so i was a little dissapointed by that.
Overall, other than Jefferson and Damien, the guest appeareances felt really pointless since they barely had anything to do with the actual Armageddon plot.
While i blame Thawne's messing with time as the reason Ryan Choi's entire personality and background changed, i didn't like how they tried turning him into Ralph 2.0.
Sentinel and Batwoman showing up only in the future instead of the present was a wasted oportunity. Actually, most of the drama going on in the future was entirely pointless, since we all knew it was gonna get retconned, so why waste time with side storylines like Allegra and Chester's?
And as always, Team Flash straight up SUCKS at supporting their hero. Seriously, i wouldnt' want Team Flash guarding my back, they'll probably throw me into the pipeline for just looking at them funny.
With that out the way though, i gotta say, Despero was a really cool villain. Alien threats work surprisingly well in the show and i always like when they have the heroes working outside of their usual element and adapting accordingly.
Barry's entire character arc was fantastic. This is the incredibly smart, competent and OP Flash i expect after 8 seasons. Seriously, why does he even need a Team?
All in all and despite the flaws, it was a very enjoyable story. Shorter and more focused story arcs, with high stakes and inmediate consequences with good pay off. This is the way to go. Hope the rest of the season stays the course, specially with the pacing. It would dumb if the first story arc is 5 episodes and second one 15, kinda like they did last season. in a 20-22 episode season, there's space enough for at least 3 to 4 self contained story arcs just like this one.
I loved it but I also didn’t. It was such a good storyline for Barry and building more rivalry between Barry and Thawne. The whole “crossover” thing is just kinda lacking. It’s not even much of a crossover, just a ton of cameos in each episode. They didn’t even have Kara which I was really bummed about cuz she totally could have been in it, and her and Barry have a unique friendship that I just love. I did like Damian Darhk helping Barry and just wanting to sacrifice himself for his daughter instead of wanting to be a villain. I just really wish Black Lightning was in more of it, I love his character. The fact he was only in one episode just annoys me. One day I hope we get a proper Flash & Black Lightning duo crossover event even though the show isn’t on the air anymore. Anyways, it just was the weakest crossover we’ve ever had tbh, and I’m not even complaining that it’s not one of the five night events anymore (I’m pretty sure not enough DC shows run on the CW for that currently). But I did enjoy bits of it, Im glad it builds a decent storyline for Barry, he hasn’t had a decent one in a while. If they didn’t promote this as a “crossover” I think I would have a different feeling for it, but I’m glad we still got some decent Flash storyline content, we’ve been needing some of that for a while. 7/10 IMO.
Black lightning and flash team up was amazing
True got lotta good stuff from that one
I loved Part 4 and everything with Thawne, it just felt so comic book, and that new suit, apart from the cowl, that suit is fucking clean and amazing it is
Armageddon episodes list from worst to best:
-Armageddon, Part 4
-Armageddon, Part 5
-Armageddon, Part 1
-Armageddon, Part 2
-Armageddon, Part 3
No man 4 is the second best episode. Episode 2 is the best one
@@GameZone-ib7eu episode 4 was cringey
@@thereaper6754 yeah the scenes with all the guest stars (hero side) were cringy but the Reverse Flashpoint, Barry and Damien Darkh's team up, Grant Gustin in Reverse Flash suit, the Flash running around earth visually looked so great. So I think it was a great episode except for few scenes
I applaud for everyone that still watches the Arrowverse
I'm glad they brought Mia back for closure on her storyline but I think it should be its' own episode. I'd love to see a flash forward episode where Bart and Nora help Future Team Arrow rescue William.
On that note, here are a list of Arrowverse shows that need to happen.
Static or Thunder and Lightning
The Atom (I thought they brought Ray and Ryan back so we can see Ray pass dowkn the torch but at least the last episode solidified that he WILL be The Atom in the future.)
The Outsiders(including Katana)
Lobo(I gave up watching Syfy after they cancelled Krypton and the Lobo spinoff that was in the works. But they could make one with the same actor)
The Question (haven't read the comics, but I have heard that Renee Montoya, who's now on Batwoman, takes the original guy's place in the comics. Except the original guy still hadn't debuted yet because Warner Bros won't let the writers even when they themselves haven't used BECAUSE THEY KEEP MEDDLING WITH THEIR MOVIES!!!)
Kid Flash(because the show is showing its age. Also, I miss Wally)
Dreamer
The Martian Manhunter
They don't even have to be on The CW. I'd rather the Arrowverse expand beyond The CW and alongside HBO Max.
Speaking of, there's no word if the Green Lantern and Justice League Dark shows are in the Arrowverse since Diggle's a GL and Constantine left the Legends. Maybe it's not? Maybe they're keeping it a surprise? Who knows? And had Wonder Girl gotten picked up, my idea would be to make the 70s Wonder Woman show canon as the show's universe is one of the other universes that became Earth Prime. Earth 96 Superman deserves his own show, too. Even though compared to all my other suggestions, it's not necessarily needed. Just fan service.
Edit: I just finished rewatching Crisis on Infinite Earths for the first time. Reminded me that Jonah Hex and The Wonder Twins deserve their own series and Sargon the Sorcerer would make a perfect villain for Justice League Dark.
Except the arrowverse is now dead, so yeah, plus with what they've let the arrowverse become post Arrow is a disgrace, form me personally I started losing interest when they cancelled Black Lightning and Swamp Thing
I agree the Chester, Allegra, Alex & Ryan mini arc is shit. Also that the love love question is cringe. And BatSJW mach 2's usage isnt necessary at all.
However there are some points made against the crossover or for it that I disagree with.
1) Green Arrow & the Canaries never made it past the false start pilot episode in Arrow S8. Therefore having another cliffhanger bout what happened with William when theyre never gonna answer it is a straight up pointless AF tease that isnt necessary. I liked having Mia in the episode as contrasting viewpoint & the whole mind control of a pawn bit was cool but they shouldve had her reason for bein there be due to the potential extinction level event instead of searching for William.
2) Tom Cavanagh & Matt Lestcher are both excellent as Eobard Thawne. And with the exception of the lightning sabre fight (because nothing can excuse that); the bringing back of Thawne has always signaled that the season is gonna get better. However, the show did mention that Barry sealed up the divergent timelines to a degree that a time remanent wouldnt be able to replace this present day Thawne if he was erased from time. Therefore, there is an in story reason to have things end for the character with this iteration. Also, both actors bein great, I (for the most part, again see lightning sabre); dont regret having either one in the role.
3) Joe West at that moment in S2 didnt know about the Multiverse. To him, the only bein that could be wearing that face at the time was Thawne, who appeared to be back from the dead & armed with a plasma rifle; & in the cortex. So a shoot first, ask qs later approach was justified. But in this crossover, when that yelling took place; Thawne was dying. Gonna get erased from existence & came quitely (once Flash showed up); because of needing help with staying alive. And the team was gonna do nothing. To Joe, it seemed that Barry was letting his emotions dictate the outcome, with Thawne's life on the line. Essentially, this paragraph disproves the whole outta nowhere change of character bit. Whats more is it too is a contrasting morale perspective that clashes well with Mia's & Despero's & I think both added more depth to the situation.
4) Damien Darhk didn't have a great start in Arrow. Magic v No Magic characters. Of course that wouldn't work out. But since then he was part of the best season of LoT (S2); & was fun to watch as well in S3 culminating in that show in his sacrifice which was touched on in Armageddon, where he had another great arc. That said, I wouldnt say hes overused.
5) CGI didnt always hold up. The many Flash mirages v Desparo was quite shoddy in that department
One last thing that you didn't mention, which I found to be pointless to have:
*Bart & Nora's Shining Pic Scene!*
Putting aside the fact that things ended well at the speech in the bar after the end of that great arc with Darhk; making this end credits scene seem 1 scene too many for the outro of the crossover, its showing a cringey character played by a pop star who shouldn't have gone into acting but for some reason did; would be back & thats not a great note to end things on.
Anyhow, thats all the stuff I agree sucks balls; difference of opinions & an extra bit that sucked too. Everything else bout the crossover is really good & its at least probably the 2nd best crossover in the Farrowverse due to all that; just under Invasion! Or would those tie for best? Hard to tell...
I honestly think anyone who thinks what Joe said was out of character for him have no idea who he is as a character, I thought it was pretty obvious that the reason Joe didn't want Barry, Iris, and the rest of team flash to let thawne die was because Joe didn't want them to basically become murders, and yes thawne has done some awful stuff but the show has hammered in the fact that they are supposed to be better than the people they fight and letting thawne die, depspite what he's done would go against all of that, so no, Joe wasn't out of character at all since he's a cop and he has probably taken the lives of countless criminals he would know the weight that would carry. And to counter the fact that Joe shot at someone who looked like him in season 2, there have been three different timeline changes since that point so his views could change across timeline changes or if you wanna say thats too coinvent, that was 6 years ago so again Joes views can change.
It’s a ripple effect even if Thawne didn’t specifically change anything for Ryan it can still change things. Asking that is like asking “If Barry only saved his mother why did Bruce die and not his parents?”
Ryan’s change would have made more sense if literally anyone else in Episode 4, outside of their connection with Thawne and Allen, had changed.
That still makes no sense. Even if there is a ripple effect, it still shouldn't affect something like that. That's like me changing the timeline, going back and ordering Pizza instead of McDonald's, then the president gets assassinated. Like, what? How does that correlate? Barry saved his mother, so he killed Bruce, made Wonder Woman and Aquaman go to war, and changed Superman's spaceship landing. Even if their is a ripple effect, which I agree with, it wouldn't be to this magnitude.
@@eobardthawn6903 Did you actually read Flashpoint? I would hope so based on your name
@@redkalel Ye.
Hey black lion I'm a big fan and I love your ranking videos. I thought that a cool vid idea would be to rank each arrow verse episode by number. For example, you would start at number 1 and go all the way up to 23. So for episode 1 you can say that arrow season 8 was the best episode 1, then for episode 2 you can say the flash season 4 had the best episode 2, then the best episode 3 could be flash season 2 and so and so forth. Does this make sense?
Yeah that’s a really good idea
I want Mia to be like Diggle was for the Flash, sometimes she has an episode that's kinda based around her and that's maybe twice in a season but not more than that, that way they'll expand her character and have her meet with team Flash more often and maybe start working with Nora and Bart
The guest stars except damien and eobard were wasted who agrees??
Me.
Ray, Black Lightning, and Nora were great guest stars along with Damien Darhk… the rest including Eobard were bad…
@@thereaper6754 Eobard was amazing in this arc
Despero was geniusly done
It upsets me that you can tell they really tried with this but it’s still not good
Genuinely watching episode 5 broke my heart cause if that
I'm glad The Black Lion reviewed the crossover again.
I loved everything related to the actual Armageddon storyline (until episode 5), and almost didn’t like anything outside. There are those things you mentioned which I won’t go over because I mostly agree, but there’s also the thing with Cecile and Top in episode 3. First of all I’m not interested in any Cecile storyline, and second why do we focus on Cecil trying to move on after Joe’s death.. if we’re just gonna bring back Joe 2 episodes later in a way that he never died?
And my problems with episode 5 is the whole thing with “should we let THAWNE die or not”. Also, we’re teased that Mia now kills, but then she has a pep talk with Iris and the next time we see her, she doesn’t wanna kill anymore. Where’s the progression here?? Last they showed Despero as more of an Anti-Hero throughout the crossover which I liked, but then at the end flipped it so he’ll be an all out villain who wants to destroy the city (with the “you weren’t actually a hero on your planet” twist)? Why?? It just makes me realize that maybe there shouldn’t have been a part 5 because the story pretty much could have ended with Barry reseting the timeline in episode 4 (which is btw the best episode of the entire crossover).
Last regarding the Reverse Flash, I actually like Cavanagh’s version. He’s great in the role and has the most connection to Team Flash, because that’s the Reverse Flash who was Barry’s mentor in season 1. Yeah it doesn’t make much sense anymore, but I look past it. Many things in the show don’t make any sense anymore (like why is removing Thawne’s speed stops him from getting erased. How and why did Thawne make Barry the Reverse Flash and kill him as a child at the same time). I don’t mind Latscher at the role, but that doesn’t mean I hate Cavanagh. We also got an interesting part of his backstory in episode 5, which I normally would have hated, but then Barry straight up said that only a crazy person would have THAT as a reason and I really liked that. The only real problem I had with him is: Why doesn’t he vibrate anymore when he’s in the suit…
The bit you said about Joe was literally what I was screaming at my tv while he was screaming at Barry and Iris..
Same. I was literally like "just kill Thawne. Joe will get over it."
I'm surprised that you didn't mention how Iris disrespected Oliver yet again in the final part of Armageddon.
How did she I don't remember what she said was it when she was talking to Mia?
@@wadejr3101 yeah.. "your father thought the same thing and it ruined his life" wtf it helped him survive 5 years of mental and physical prison of torment
@@Dhruv-qw7jf oh I remember when she said that to her now that line is iffy to me
@@wadejr3101 it's like the writers try their hardest to make Iris unlikeable in the crossovers especially.
@@Dhruv-qw7jf But Oliver is an asshole. Throughout the series he was a hypocrite, ignorant, bad friend and leader. The fact that he sacrificed himself to save the Multiverse or spent 5 years on an island doesn't justify his mistakes. He murdered people, hurt the people close to him. Want an example? In season 2 when they find out that Sara was alive, what does he do? Stay with her the moment he was reconciling with Laurel and still takes her to dinner at Laurel's and lies.
yeah, there were definitely some points where i wanted to skip scenes, like with the whole chester and allegra crush subplot (it was cute but had pretty much NO relevance to the story/event at all and i was much more invested in barry, thawne, and the new timeline - it's a flashpoint after all), but overall with its twists and turns, i really enjoyed armageddon and it thoroughly entertained me (for the most part).
and yo, iris is a flawed and sometimes poorly written character (high-key the writers' faults) but she got the smoke from almost everyone in this arc (joe, cecile, despero, thawne, mia) and it was kinda painful to watch her get dragged down by characters as much as the fanbase lol. (at least with barry, everyone thought it was his fault lolol)
I feel it’s very in character for Joe to be against them killing Thawne. Yes, thawne has done a lot to the team but that doesn’t qualify them to play executioner. Flash isn’t a knowing killer unless the situation absolutely permits it.
Agreed and I feel like everyone is missing out on that and just mad they let thawne live. If someone ask you to save them you honor that
@@spadesofpaintstudios1719 especially when he points out that Barry knows DAMN well he can neutralize him instead
@@spadesofpaintstudios1719 No. If an innocent person asks you to save them you do that. You don't save a serial killer who'll kill more people if you save him.
@@Xehanort10 who are we to say someone shouldn’t be saved especially if their desperate enough to come ask you for help in the first place. No one ever really wants to die, I don’t agree with any of the crap thawne pulls but if he’s begging for his life that lets you know something in him is still human and deserves to be treated as so. It would be different if they didn’t have a choice but to let him die but they did.
@@spadesofpaintstudios1719 He only begged for his life because he knew the gullible idiots that comprise Team Flash would be dumb enough to save him.
I was surprised at how much I liked this event. Sure a lot of things didn’t make sense but overall I really liked eps 2-3. Ep 4 was dragged down by unnecessary side plots but it was still funny to see Iris always on Barry’s side. Ep 5, though, that killed all my excitement and I started actually yelling at the tv in anger. Like when Joe showed up I screamed at him lol, like what are you even talking about. Anyway, it was frustrating and stupid and Barry calling Desparo a despot out of no where was frustrating. I wish they’d stop having TC play RF, I love TC, but him constantly showing up as RF is really messing with my Wells love, and it’s made even worse because Wells isn’t even in the show anymore. I still really miss Harry. Anywho, this was definitely better than season 7, and Barry was way more competent, I really liked that team flash didn’t help him fight as much. Overall I had a fun time that just didn’t stick to landing.
Damn, even when the Arrowverse is watchable, there still is more bad than actual good. And I agree with Black Lion. Especially with Reverse Flash. Giant Hot Take, I Hate The Reverse Flash! I'm tired of always seeing him all the God damned time, especially played by Tom Cavanugh, and using the negative speed force as plot armor. And this crossover got to the heart of why Thawne is secretly a bad villain. He literally said that hates the Flash because he's jealous of him, and always stealing his thunder. So he killed Barry's mother, threatened to kill other innocent people, has tampered with the fabric of space and time, all just because he's jealous of the Flash. That is so petty and childish. And when they finally realized that his actions have consequences, and about to die permanently with no hope of returning, they argue and debate on whenever or not to save the life of a murderer. Who killed an innocent woman, scarred Barry for life, and even admitted even if he saves him, Thawne won't stop trying to kill Barry. And even when the biggest Reverse Flash fanboy like Black Lion, admits he wants Thawne to die, you know you ruined a villain. Sorry, I just had to vent out. Please be civil with me. Disagree all you want, I'm cynical, I deserve it, lol.
I mean when Thawne started to explain his motive, I thought it was stupid too (like it’s literally the same motive of the villain in Amazing Spider-Man 2). But then Barry said that only a crazy person would get affected like that by something so small, and that’s when it hit me. The show knows that this motivation is stupid, but that’s the point. Thawne is the only one who justifies his actions like that, because he’s just that obsessive. It fits his character (at least the more crazy version of the character that we’ve seen since Crisis).
But yeah, Team Flash considering saving him is really stupid. I mean I don’t want him to be gone from the show forever (at least not like that), but as a person: he should definitely be dead for everything he’s done.
@@itamar20112, good points. Thanks for understanding. But honestly, if that's who he is in comics, than he's a bad character in my opinion.
@@Artist_Unbound That’s not who he is in the comics (as far as I know). That’s how he is on the show. That’s what I initially meant - his motivation is stupid and doesn’t make sense for a normal person, but it makes sense for him, which just shows how lunatic he is.
@@itamar20112, oh okay. I get it now. Well if that's the case, that's a testament towards how terrible the writing for the show is. In my opinion at least
@@Artist_Unbound in the comics once Barry uses the negative speedforce. With all his negative emotions amplified he beats the crap out of Thawne and asked him why did he killed his mother, why is he hellbent on ruining Barry's life. Thawne says that it's the only way he can spend time with his idol. He says that after his first encounter with the Flash Thawne improved himself, even made his suit yellow because that's the colour Kid Flash uses. He wanted to be Barry's sidekick and he travels in past. But then he realises that he has no place in the Flash's life. He can never be his sidekick. This drove him insane and said that fine if he can't be The Flash's partner he can be his greatest enemy. That's his character, he is insane and petty. That's what makes his character catchy and fun. He never wishes to kill the Flash. What will he do without him. But the TV show is doing different with Thawne's character.
Before this season started they're were three things I wanted to happenm better writing, Joe to leave and for star labs to blow up. Finding at all of these happened in epsiode 2 was awesome but then it's all taken back after 1 epsiode of reverse flash point. Epsiode 4 felt like a waste of time and just created more questions then awnsers. Epsiode 5 plot was dumb with Joe's outburst making no senses considering he tried to kill thawne in season 2. It would be more heroic for Barry to sacrifice his ideals to save the world then risk the world through thawne again.
I can’t stand and hate how they don’t bring back Dinah Laurel Lance, but they bring back the Bastard psychopath who murdered her!!!! Ugh 😑
Damien Darkh is cool imo
i hate the fact they make team flash a whole no kill rule
which is absolutely dumb when you got barry literally killing sandman in season 2 and never mentioned again and
iris killing savitar etc
Return Thawne --> Take away his brains out ---> Let him stupidly lose --> Save him for another season
I think the Flash should do smaller arcs with other characters from the Arrowverse in the future, but have them have a bigger role then most of them did in this.
I'm so happy someone's talking about how out of character it was for Joe to want to save thawne😂🤣
I was hoping despero would just kill everyone in team flash and than Barry could go back to basics
Will you do video on the upcoming CW Gotham Knights show?
huge disagree. Tom Cavanagh's Thawne is the only one i care about seeing. Matt isn't bad, he's a great actor, but Cavanagh's Thawne just means more to me. he's been so endeared to me by everything from the first season that i almost see him and Matt as entirely different characters.
Cavanagh plays Thawne brilliantly. Unfortunately, the use of the Wells persona as a disguise ran its course long ago, and no longer makes sense. The justification in Crisis on Earth X was actually acceptable, and possibly extending to the Cicada arc. After that, it should have been all Letscher, no more excuses.
It's not about Tom Cavanaugh's acting. It's just that now his version of Reverse Flash doesn't make sense. It made sense in season 1 that he needed the disguise of Harrison Wells but now he doesn't. His face actually makes a plot hole in episode 4. He said that he traveled in 2013 and made sure that he was the one struck by lightning and he became the Flash.But at that time Harrison Wells (his past self) also existed so both having the same face and no one noticed including Caitlin who has worked with Harrison Wells and is now working with Eobard Thawne is just nonsense. If it was Matt Letcher's version then it would've made sense that he would've convinced his past self that instead of Barry he will be struck by lightning and since Eobard Thawne is from future no one would've recognised him. Tom Cavanaugh can play the Reverse Flash only for flashback or when they travel in season 1's time. Other than that Matt Letcher should play the role not Tom Cavanaugh
@@GameZone-ib7eu thank you. Couldn’t have said it any better. And in my opinion, I would have valued Thawne a lot more if they didn’t use him any after Season 3. And just have the younger Matt version (who hadn’t killed Barry’s mother yet) to show up in the last season and learn more of his back story.
It makes no sense though. They found out Thawne wasn't Wells and that he killed the real one way back in Season 1. So he doesn't need the disguise and therefore shouldn't be played by Tom Cavanagh anymore. They shouldn't have done the multiple Wells shit either. Harrison Wells was a scientist Thawne killed to steal his identity so he could build the particle accelerator and give Barry his speed to get home not some important cosmic being with different versions of himself.
@@Xehanort10 Funny, I thought it was common knowledge that Cavanaugh played the part if he also got to improv.
this arch is epic except for the whole thing with Ryan Choi as well as Joe west in Episode 5 and Cecile Horton in episode 2 at the ending.
Crossover stuff-bad
Flash stuff-good
No wonder they just made it the first five episodes of flash
Because it isn't a crossover. The crossover stuff worked fine, but it was clearly a Flash story.
Literally right before you said it I was like "didn't Ryan Choi have a family in Crisis?" And then you brought it up🤣
I don’t usually completely agree with you but this review is spot on, everything you said was accurate.
Sure, except for the part where he completely missed that the narcissistic jealous sociopath Thawne intentionally ruined the lives of the paragons, all of whom he is also manipulated into being part of Team Flash so that he could enjoy torturing them while he marries Iris and has happiness.
It's very plainly explained, but I chalk it up to his young age not noticing.
The main story line was good, but the sub story lines from other characters are so bad. The CGI was really bad I Episode 5 though.
It’s fine your just used to the new marvel shows with insane budgets
@@dravendawson4199 What's that supposed to mean? Smaller budget does not excuse terrible writing.
@@nathanieldiaz5254 I didn’t say anything about the writing and the writing is just as bad as the marvel TV shows
@@dravendawson4199 Yeah I get it. Like Inhumans or Iron Fist season 1. They rest are hit or miss but nowhere near as bad as the Arrowverse. Especially Daredevil and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
The best scene of these 5 episodes was the Caitlin and thawne scene!
Joe would rather ruin his family than let a mass murderer die. That episode had Batwoman-level nonsensical morals.
There is enough content for a full season of this (maybe fewer episodes to focus on quality over quantity) so I really wish they did that.
It was as bad as that episode of Batwoman where a girl was going to kill herself and a train full of people because her parents hated her for being a lesbian. And Kate instead of pointing out that her parents not accepting her sexuality doesn't excuse what she did and jailing her let her go.
The Flash seasons ranked
1. Season 1
2. Season 2
3. Season 6A: "Blood and Truth"
4. Season 8A: "Armageddon"
5. Season 3
6. Season 5
7. Season 4
8. Season 7B: "The Godspeed Imperative"
9. Season 6B: "Reflections and Lies"
10. Season 7A: "God Complex"
Now I really want to watch season 7 to see what's so bad about it
@@Lucian028 please don't waste your brain cells
Quick question, didn’t To. cavanagh leave in season 7? Why is he still playing the reverse flash?
He left as a series regular, doesn't mean he can't come back in guest starring roles. Wally left in season four but still popped up in seasons five and six.
The fact that Barry himself didn't even have to kill him himself but they STILL kept him alive knowing what he did makes NO SENSE
Especially since they did absolutely nothing to try and save Dahrk.
The timeline itself was erasing Thawne for constantly messing it up so it was karma. By Joe's logic if a rapist asked Barry to sexually assault a woman he'd have to do it because the rapist asked him to apparently. "Barry if a drug dealer asks you to snort cocaine you have to do it because the dealer asked."
i feel like if they really wanted tom Cavanaugh's reverse flash to stay alive but make it make sense they should have had the same debate (minus the joe part) but they decide to let him die and then thawn tries to trick black lightning or something with voice modulation or whatever and hologram from season 3 and thats how he survived
in other words they should have had team flash agree to let him die but have him find a way without them if they really wanted him to stay
Norah’s addition was interesting. I agree, I hated Ryan’s storyline, especially that they just seemed to forget the he was written with a wife and child in COIE.
That's what I was saying!!! The whole time he was in part 4 I'm like "wait aren't you married with a kid?"
@@allensmith8459 Rewatch it again, he did the Reverse Flashpoint exactly to destroy the paragons too, he messed with all of their lives.
Finally someone says it Fake-Ass Batfaker didn’t need to be There and added nothing to the story!
am i the only one who shouldve have barry confused when he came to 2031, he saw ryan wilder and be like "wait, that isnt kate kane?"
no one knows that kate kane left and that there was a new batwoman
The end where they stole the rf his speed you could see all the emotions in his face top tier acting
I still think season 4 is the lowest point fot the show
This season is already a lot better than season 4 and season 7
Reverse flashpoint was a great idea but
but what?
@@Dog1167 it was ruined
Episode 3 or 4 had that one different timeline. Now that episode was the worst. Because the characters were cringed especially the nerdy dude and light powers girls on team Flash with this soap opera CW will they won't they cringe romance storyline. "We all need love" cringe. Then we had to see this shit done again in the final eps lol. But at the end of the day, I will give this crossover or arc a thumbs up despite its flaws. Way better than season 7 so far.
About the Joe scene I think he changed, that's why he decided to take this position. However I think the scene was awful.
5: Part 5 (71%)(Extremely disappointing, even though it was really shocking, the CGI was terrible and I hated that they gave Thawne a backstory)
4: Part 3 (86%)(Seeing Barry team up with Jefferson was really fun and Iris's storyline was INCREDIBLE but Cecile was unbearably out of character)
3: Part 1 (93%)(An awesome introduction with the greatest CGI in the entire series, I loved Ray and Despero so much)
2: Part 4 (98%)(Even though Tom looks goofy in Barry's suit but his inclusion in the episode was very interesting, the Reverse Flashpoint was such a cool concept)
1: Part 2 (100%)(The greatest episode in TV history!!!)
1. How can Barry afford to be the owner of Star Labs on a CSI wage?
2. Where is this mystery baby Jenna? We never see her and they didn’t even have her in the future part. They mention her but we never see her lol.
Idk why Eric Wallace has an obsession with love and romance so much like he legit feels like a west Allen Stan that has fan accounts
He wants into Candice Patton's pants that's why.
The title is the best way to describe the crossover.
Always agree with you 100%. Especially with the Joe scene. It felt so forced and didn’t match the energy the episode was giving off. The writers just wanted Joe to have a motivational scene and it ended up not making sense considering his actions against Earth-2 Wells in Season 2 when he thought he was Thawne.
Exactly what a hypocrite
Tbh I liked the crossover I’m however very very cautiously optimistic that the second half of season 8 will be good hopefully Flash can prove me wrong and step it up especially when it comes to the writing especially coming off shows like Superman&Lois and the masterpiece that is Peacmaker I hope the Flash can continue to redeem it’s self and hopefully be a top tire show it use to be or even if it’s half as good keep up the good work.
Show should have ended with Season 5. Was all down hill from there with everything played out and the tropes getting worse and worse and the constant quick turns of being 100% against and then 100% for Barry/Flash in almost every episode was already beyond tolerable. The CW shows all have that same tired writing style which is why the shows on WB (titans. Doom Patrol) and Gotham were far superior shows.
Joe actually pissed me off, Thawne has done so much after how many chances at life he was given, and now the one time that they have the chance to let fate take his life instead of them doing it, Joe somehow convinces them to save him by screaming at them. I dropped the flash after season 7 and came back to finish it since it ended on season 9 and now after that episode I wanna drop it again.
I haven't watched Flash since after Crisis on Infinite Earths. Once that concluded I stopped watching. The show just seem to go downhill. I like Grant Gustin and I really hope that we see him in a cameo role in Ezra Miller's Flash movie but the material that he's given has not been good.
the new Flash and Reverse Flash suits look so cheap and ugly
Felix Faust? Don't remember that name drop. Also he's dead
It was nice to see Ryan Choi/Atom again but seriously 😒 he was underutilized again! And not done right! Ugh 😑
One of the Arrowverse's most pointless characters.
But episode 4 is the one with the most menacing energy