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Maggie Thatcher Saved Britain
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- čas přidán 4. 09. 2024
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Filmed at the Royal Geographical Society on 2nd November 2004.
Following the death of Baroness Thatcher, we are revisiting our sell-out 2004 debate: 'Maggie Thatcher Saved Britain'. The evening saw Charles Moore, Lord Bell and Sir John Nott contend with Sir Peregrine Worsthorne, Billy Bragg, and Diane Abbott over the merits and shortcomings of the Iron Lady. The debate was chaired by Martyn Lewis.
Hands up if you're only here to watch Abbott make a fool of herself?
@@caterpillar1936 I think it's great the mentally handicapped get opportunities like being in the labour shadow cabinet.
Two mis-matched left footed shoes on polling day. Says it all, really.
I actually wonder if she is suffering the early onset of dementia.
@@fr1day2 I don't think its possible.
Identity Politics pushing total fuckwit. She continually uses her race and gender as a political tool.
I do not agree with her politics, However, I deplore of the insolent attitude of those who espouse hate in relation to political leaders. The treatment of Dianne Abbott is a great shame for the conservative party and movement. Democratically elected officials deserve the respect their station envouques whether you agree with their policy or not. Politics only works if we mutually respect each other and through discourse find a resolution.
If you shame or suppress a political group it always comes back stronger and more radical, (don't shame those with who you disagree)
When thatcher came into power, even the grave diggers were on strike. And Soho had heaps of bin bags from the rubbish that not been collected. The unions had a complete monopoly over workers. They were preventing people from going to work who didn't want to strike. And bullying and intimidating them. Teachers bullied middle class students and had the power to used physical violence against them, and did so.
Margaret Thatcher made it possible for people to buy their council flats. For the first time ever, working people who had never had the opportunity to go to university, had the opportunity to own their own home. She also stopped teachers from abusing their positions of power. And that's why they hated her. Because they could no longer pick on the kid, who's parents both worked for a living.
Labour is a joke. It has never been able to ruin boroughs successfully, especially not in London. It platforms on ideology, not on economics and what it best for the country. We all want a compassionate and caring society. But that comes from individual moral integrity, not the hammer and sickle or a guilt trip. As Eastern Europe know this all too well.
Trade unions handed the power to Mrs. Thatcher so that its members would lose their jobs. Mrs. Thatcher did a racist campaign against Asian immigration. That has moved the working-class areas of Britain, the traditional Labour area, who had changed their support from Labour to Conservative. That was the real reason.
The Grave diggers were not on strike, that was made up by the Sun. The Grave diggers could not dig the graves because the ground was to frozen to dig up. People should be aware of John Nott's role as defence secretary before and during the Falkland's conflict. He is a traitorous toad! The cuts to the Navy he had signed of on the new carriers and sea harriers being sold off to India and Australia. It was a done deal. Had the invasion happened 6 months later were would have been powerless to do anything about it. He offered his resignation when the invasion happened, he realised his actions were an invitation to invade. Thatcher refused to accept his resignation. That speaks volumes about what she thought of the Navy.
Every time I listen to Billy Bragg I reminded how easy it is to tell half the story. It's pretty much like reading a headline and skipping the article.
Oh good, an isquared debate, where logical arguments are made by smart people. Wait, is that Diane Abbot?
Did you watch her speech? She did a great job.
She is a shit load smarter than you, I would bet.
Diane f wit Abbott cnt add up correctly
Yeah that sounds good to me these caring labour people are just like a good friend who wants U think these idiots will do if these people gets into power on 12 Dec 2019 dnt care about working people just want U think that
Yeah Abbott 2 face it send her children to private education and I hear this bk 1990s
Oh noooo its Diane Abbott
How is Diane Abbot on a forum called intelligence squared ?
😂
And now my bitter hands, cradle broken glass, of what was everything
All the pictures have, all been washed in black
Tattooed everything
Oh Christ who let Dianne out again.
Heh, as soon as I saw that Dianne Abbot was on this panel I came to check the comments. I was not disappointed.
me to
haha same jokes
Dianne Abacus on an intelligence debate, that's funny.
yeap
This debate took place in November 2004 - November as Charles Moore is wearing a poppy.
Very fitting this is called "IQ2" and Diane Abbott is on it. :-)
it’s iq squared, very ironic that you’re insulting someone’s intelligence and then fumble on the name of the channel...
The American IQ squared scoring system makes more sense than this one. Whoever wins over more audience members should be counted as winner.
Britain didn't need to be 'saved'. The troubles started when the Callaghan govt accepted IMF conditions (which comprised the monetarist policies she expanded on when she took over) which led to the winter of discontent directly. The big criticism she had of Callaghan she pursued relentlessly to bash the lower and working class.
Britain was on its knees in the 70s, British industry was a burden on the economy as it was too expensive to break even. And unions sped up its downfall.
Being rich is only good when the common people get to benefit from it. Wealth in the hands of the few means most people don’t care how much money the country has.
Corporate greed isn't the problem, the problem is when corporations have power over the government via lobbying, otherwise known as corporatism (crony capitalism). Join us Libertarians/Minarchists/Anarcho-capitalists and fight against that madness.
This discussion was in 2004, so the film is now 14 years ago, uploaded to CZcams just after Margaret Thatcher died in April 2013.
Left, right or centre this debate is one among the middle class chattering classes, and has no ordinary working people on the panel. This is a form of exclusion. The chattering classes are not living in the real world, no matter their party colours. As for the trade unions being castigated as greedy, it was Mrs Thatcher who said; "Greed is good". Mrs Thatcher and her Tories were always, and are the greedy ones. Under Thatcher, her Tory friends filled their boots with money.
What about Billy Bragg
The consequences are now history. Ex miners are business men, offshore, at sea, teaching, construction, inter alia. They got a shitload more redundancy than I did at British shipbuilders.
An intelligent groups of presentations, from both sides. As a British person I side with the views that Thatcher caused more harm than good. Thankfully we seem to be getting to the point where we are starting to get over that ideology and to replace it with something fairer, nicer, more democratic.
Watching from the post-2008 dystopia, it's beyond crazy to think that there were ever people who were pro-Thatcher. 😳
Think most people are still in favour of free market economics tbh. It says everything about the left that 12 years after the crash the left haven’t come up with a viable alternative
Arguing in favour of free market economics and mentioning the crash in ‘08 is interesting. Especially as the former is widely accepted as contributing to the latter.
@@Waltzhybrid92 I repeat the left and the one nation conservatives for that matter, haven’t come up with an alternative. So the free market system has failed but it’s still by far and away the best option we’ve come up with.
@@harryantino I don't think it's really as simple as the 2008 was caused by the free markets. There was a fair bit of government intervention that contributed as well. Risky lending was encouraged as well as regulations laxed.
Thatcher was not responsible for 2008.
I had no idea on Earth why anyone would state this claim. Which is the difference between my education on the conservative vs. The liberal sides of democratic history.
The right overexaggerates how bad the strife was in the 70's although there were too many strikes and the left tends to downplay how bad it was. Some in the Labour Party knew the Trades Unions were out of control namely Barbara Castle and she tried to reform them but was blocked by Callaghan. Yes Britain needed reform economically, socially and politically as the post war consensus needed altering and updating. I'm not sure if Thatcher was the right person but she certainly made an impact. The UK was given short sharp shock treatment. She was fortunate as her opposition was weak or foolish namely, Labour in the early 80's and Miners leader Scargill for obvious reasons. What if we'd had a market reforming one nation Tory with a social conscious instead. Someone who knew the need of reform but of implementing it in the right spirit.
here mainly to see Diane Abbot make a fool of herself - wasn't disappointed.
She made Britain great again!
Abbott needs to get a few more shoulders to carry all the chips she has. She is just about the most loathsome person in politics.
Is the most loathsome person in politics that I know of.
I’m impressed with how articulate Diane Abbott was! I’ve never heard her speak so quickly and cogently.
God Almighty sent Moses to save Israel, Joan of Arc to save France and Margaret Thatcher to save Britain.
iniohos2 what arc are you talking about the Ark ai in ethiopia.
Unless you're an aetheist.
This was a sham. The opposition had a Thatcher lover and an ex-popstar. This was the best they could get was it?
I mean what? Glenda Jackson wasn't available? John Sergeant ill? Stephen Fry not quite up to it? Ian Hislop got too much of a full schedule? Pfft.
Thatcher came in, in 1979 with the famous ad campaign from Saatchi Bros "Labour isn't working". Unemployment was just below 1M. Two years later, there were _officially_ 3 M unemployed, but the way of counting them had already been altered to reduce the apparent numbers. UK oil came onstream in 1979, and contributed, by a year later, almost 8% of Britain's economy. Much of this was squandered because so many were had no job to go to.
Nearing the middle of her first term in 1981-early 82, Thatcher's government was the most unpopular and disliked administration there had ever been. Then the Argentines invaded the Falklands. The British armed forces, in spite of being starved of resources, managed to expel the Argentines, and this feelgood factor, in England especially, gave Thatcher her second term.
After the miners strike and the destruction of the mines, we nominally had the same unemployment, somewhat above 3M, but there were another two and a half million men who had effectively been warehoused on incapacity benefit and those in they 50s had effectively been told that they could expect never to have a decent job again in their lifetimes. The dire state of the economy and the loss of the car industry meant that Birmingham, formerly the engineering capital of UK, lost most of its small private engineering firms. Thousands of small firms many decades in business, went out of business. Had it not been for the Big bang, financialisation and oil money, Britain would have been entirely bankrupt.
My dad died in hospital under the Tories. The night before, I tried to find a doctor or a nurse in the hospital to check on him. I couldn't find any staff, and I searched three wards. 86, he hadn't spent any time in hospital before, but when he needed it after a lifetime of contributions, the NHS just wasn't there.
Over rest of their terms, they destroyed and gave away to their friends most of the wealth that the ordinary working people of this country had built since the War. And if the Falklands had been invaded at any time since the late 80s, there is absolutely no possibility that Britain's armed forces would have been able to recover them. Or now. We have no Naval force to speak of, hardly an air force, and our small army is fully committed elsewhere.
Thatcher, Lawson and their pals were absolutely the worst thing that has ever happened to the UK. And the effects have lasted; their poison infected the whole of politics, and produced a perversion of the Labour party under Blair. Britain is still horribly damaged, and they are still at it. The rich get immensely richer, and the rest live in a much less happy and contented place than the one I grew up in in the 50s, 60s, and, yes, 70s.
You summed it up perfectly
laDy8A5737 Thanks, but I'm a bit surprised to read it again and see that I missed out the part about one of her central policies - taxes. For most people, myself included (and I was relatively well paid, just a couple of thousand below the higher rate threshold) the tax take from wages (income tax + Nat.Ins.) actually _increased_, unless you were already paying income tax at the higher rate. As a percentage, it increased most for the lowest paid, and yet, somehow, many failed to notice, seeing only the rate reduction, not how much they were actually paying. Because personal allowances were rearranged and were not increased in line with inflation and wage levels, tax take for most people did not fall back to (if you were low-paid) and below (if you were luckier) the previous Labour govt. level until John Major's government, and then by only around a trivial 1-1.5% of wages. She completely failed in this promise too.
Dick Hamilton This lady came to power with the unfortunate epithet as being a Milk Snatcher. This title dogged her throughout her years in Government so much so that many people refused to believe that she had both our country and its peoples interest at heart. She was not a Milk Snatcher.Free school milk for 11-18 year old's was ended by Harold Wilson in 1968. She refused to end it for nursery school children under Heath's Government. You mention the dire state of our defences, but prior to her election defence spending had been cut in the previous 6 years under the stewardship of a Labour Government. She increased it dramatically once in office, just in time to fight the Falklands War.
She did not destroy the Coal Industry. Harold Wilson and Jim Callaghan had closed two thirds of Britain's mines prior to her premiership. The miners would have none of Neil Kinnock's plan for coal. Scargill accused Kinnock of betraying Britain's coal miners.The general public had had enough. The country was in economic ruin as a result of labour unrest throughout almost the whole of British Industry. The Lady took the miners on. The country had suffered enough through the blackmailing of British Industry and the Public by the trade union movement, the NUM in particular. Likewise she took on the unions in the Automotive Industry. British Leyland had experienced over 500 walk-outs in the 12 month period up until her election. At the Standard Triumph in Coventry you could clock on at 8 am and clock off at 5 pm without striking a blow. The union had blacked some supplier or another because that supplier did not have a preferred union recognition.
People be-moan the fact that she started the sell-off of Britain's social housing stock under the "Right to Buy". This policy had been in the 1959 Labour Party Manifesto. She went on to build on average 43,000 council houses per year for the rest of her time in Government. Blair and Brown barely built 600 per year in the time they ran the country.
Her defining moment, for me, came when she tried to introduce the Poll Tax. This was an attempt to make everyone of us pay an equal share, to take equal responsibility for the local services that we all need, a true Socialist Aspiration. It was a massive mistake and ill-judged. She had not accounted for the fact that all those who up until that time had paid nothing at all, who were living off the backs of all those who had made a contribution, would take to the streets and destroy property and assault Police Officers.
Bragg and Abbott make numerous comments on a world before Margaret Thatcher because only in this way do they avoid having to apologies for all the weakness,mistakes and mismanagement that their party made during it's stewardship of the economy before she came to power.Abbott conveniently forgets to tell us that £14 billion was injected into the NHS during the period of her office as against only £8 billion during the previous Labour Government.Her continued references to her humble upbringing gives her a chance to blame all the problems of our country on the so-called "Upper Classes" To suggest that they should know better demeans all the rest of us who she thinks, do not know any better.
I am no lover of Margaret Thatcher, I never voted for her. However, I dislike the fact that somehow people wish to magnify the mistakes that were made under her name whilst she was in office and minimise and conveniently forget because of political dogma, those made by other administrations. I for one will never forget Jim Callaghan's 29% Inflation Rate, the IMF running our economy, the 127 Stealth taxes and the damage done to Occupational and Private Pensions by Gordon Brown which led to the end of many, if not all, of the best schemes in the country.
Common Sense what you wrote tells me you weren't there. I worked for the MoD before, through, and after her terms in office. I know what she did to Defence. But that was not formost in my concerns. Her NeoLiberal policies (see Hayek, Friedman) destroyed the country. It still goes on, as it did under Blair.
Ask most people, and the idiots actually think she reduced their income tax. They can't calculate from their own payslips. Income tax, the total tax take, for most people, including me (and I was well paid for the day, at 4500 in 1980, *more than three times* what my dad, a busdriver, earned), went UP, and in percentage terms, it went up most for the lowest paid. Not much for me, about 1.5%, by more if you earned less, but up. Income tax take only fell significantly if you were earning more than the higher rate split. I didn't personally know _anybody_ who was, not even my boss's boss. I was a degree qualified individual, a research engineer. I saw thousands of small privately held engineering firms go bust, especially in Birmingham. She put 4 and a half million people out of work between 1980 and 1982, and hid 2+ million of those on Incapacity Benefit, and the only way it was possible was by squandering the oil money that had just arrived as she came into office. Contrast what happened in Norway. Here, millions of people over 50 never worked again.
As for milk, I can't recall getting free milk at 11 oclock break after 9yrs old, and that was *long* before 1968. She took it away from the juniors 3-8. Nobody got free milk in high school/secondary in my time or since, so I don't know what you are talking about when you talk about 11-18 yr olds.
!973,74 - the three day week, under Ted Heath, caused not by Ted Heath, but by the oil shock. The rest of the 70s was recovery, and the strikes came because there had been significant inflation but no pay rises for years. Barbara Castle couldn't get her measures passed. Granted, the biggest unions went too far, but still, when you are risking your life digging coal for 30 quid a week, and delivering twice as much tonnage per shift as ten years previously, I can undertand why.
You weren't there.
Dick Hamilton Was I not where? Sorry but I do not understand what you mean. I started work when I was 17 in 1966 and ended employment in 2014. I worked for the GPO/BT for 33 years and the rest in the NHS. I've experienced hard times, privatisation and spending cuts. I am a socialist with a good memory but I am not blinded by political dogma. If you doubt anything that I have said then check for yourself. It has to be somewhere on the net.
Diane says “Lord Nott” (at 1:02) - Sir John is one of three Cabinet members to serve under Margaret Thatcher to never have never sat in the Lords. Sir John Major and Sir Malcolm Rifkind are the other two.
The people against the motion all claim that the Britain today is a result of Thatcher and her actions. So, what have we all been doing since her demise? Evidently , we are all powerless to improve our country yet she could mold it at her will. That says more about the PMs that followed her and the citizens of the country.
A politician may save his/her nation during a major calamity like a famine, pandemic or foregn invasion. But in the 1980s that was hardly the case in Britain, the ecomony was far from destitute and the Falklands were half a world away from their shores. So in a more or less normal situation no one needs to become a national hero. It is better that way - in times when leaders have to become heroes, the common folk have their hands full barely surviving.
"Sir Charles Moore" to quote Diane Abbott. Wrong!!! He was Mr Charles Moore until 2020, when he was given a peerage. She really is ignorant! It's good to hear that she gets corrected during her speech.
I met her once. Had to give her a briefing on a big infrastructure project I was managing. Half an hour was set aside but three minutes in she interrupted me and proceeded to lecture me on how I had to manage the project (before waking off). A pure of force of nature! Much missed.
funny how if any other person tried that with you, who had no specialist knowledge on your subject, you'd throw a hissy fit. But here, you deify them. Strange, that
@@corpgov Maybe because the gentleman was mature enough to appreciate her efficacy and quick discernment and analysis. This isn’t ‘deifying’ her.
You all missed the milk snatcher.
How kids enjoyed their pinta at school. Thank you Maggie for taking away such a small treat from our offspring.
@Joe Dias Buy your own milk.
Jo Swinson wants a peoples vote next Monday because they didnt know what they were voting for this time
Hold the same debate up north, sometime...
Margaret Thatcher saved England. End of discussion
Debatable. But that was not the motion and she most certainly destroyed Britain whatever that may be. (I take it for you it's the exact same thing as England and it always was)
_"End of discussion"_
Code for "I have nothing else".
At most, she saved some of the South of England-if that. She did nothing to save the Midlands, the North, the North East, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. Britain never had to given a miserly, meanspirited government and an economic system where the rich had all the power and the workers-the people who create the wealth, have none. And there was no excuse for Tony Blair to make Labour into a clone of the Tories.
I was very anti Thatcher but the people opposing the motion just don't cut the mustard.
Did Billy Bragg say getting rid of communism was the greatest act of the 20th century?
It most definitely was.
The "CITY" loved her but the rest of the country which includes the "INDUSTRY" detested her policies!
PERIOD
Well.why.did.the.people.keep.voting.for.her.all.the.time
The little boy was not a idiot.
Certainly not. Today we are paupers. Thanks to thatcher.
In reference to the treatment of Dianne abbot in these comments
I do not agree with her politics, However, I deplore of the insolent attitude of those who espouse hate in relation to political leaders. The treatment of Dianne Abbott is a great shame for the conservative party and movement. Democratically elected officials deserve the respect their station envouques whether you agree with their policy or not. Politics only works if we mutually respect each other and through discourse find a resolution.
If you shame or suppress a political group it always comes back stronger and more radical, (don't shame those with who you disagree)
When i think of thatcher all i can see is her crying her eyes out outside number 10 when she was given the boot. This was after putting 3 million on the dole the poll tax and starting a war with a country who we had sold the boats to invade in the first place.She had sold every asset the country owned. Had had massive revenue from the north sea And still the country was on its knees.correction the working class was on its knees things were ok in Daily mail land.So the best peace time leader was clem
Attlee scared away the Americans the American atomic bomb was a joint venture between Britain and America, attlee had to start a new nuclear program after we already had a nuclear weapon we helped develop during the war with churchill and roosevelt. Cost Britain a fortune and sped up the fall of British world influence.
40:40 "Exasperated" in lieu of "exacerbated"? What a revealing malapropism.
Lesson to be learnt?
If you are an unpopular leader, how about a short little glorious war...ahem....'over by Christmas', to set matters straight?
Delusional debates occur when man has nothing to say .
Too bad this was done in 2004.
i thought this was a comedy title , saved britain HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA i nearly f--kin died laughing
True. The welfare aristocracy reversed most everything she did. About her only surviving legacy is keeping the UK out of that EU disaster.
DrCruel And generations of unemployed in former industrial and mining towns, a chronic housing shortage and an out of control banking sector. What a legacy.
Marcos No doubt. Socialist autocracy and mismanagement, even in the weak English form, has left a once great Britain in ruins. But Thatcher did what she could to mitigate the damage.
How has Thatcher mitigated against the damage of north-of-London decline and irrelevancy or the housing shortage? Hers and successive governments are what caused the housing shortage in the first place!
Marcos I'd think Ken Livingstone would have had more to do with the decline of London than anyone else. But I suppose big city Labour governments are as keen to blame their own messes on Tories as are Democratic governments in US big cities to blame their own messes on Republicans.
Look at Venezuela they love socialism.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela
No other prime minister s death was celebrated with such venom. People held street parties and drunk champagne.
TELL us why such a thing happened.
Ffs people, every single comment is about Diane Abbott, just stop. If you’re going to criticise Diane Abbott address something she actually said rather than these irrelevant ad hominem attacks
it might have something to do with her colour. But, of course, I'm not allowed to say that in case Im accused of playing the race card ;)
I miss you maggie :( please come back,you left to early.....i love you maggieeeee
Mr. Sir I wish
The most eloquent speaker was Bragg. The bottomless stupidity and vulgarity of Abbot makes one wonder how on earth she got that far, even in that wreck of a party. Probably tokenism at its worst.
I am a US citizen who has just started reading Moore's bio (mid way through vol. 2), and I do not understand the antipathy and hostility to Ms. Abbott. She is articulate and offered a different perspective to the argument.
She probably took a week to write that speech, or got someone else to write it. But even so, it was all fluff and slander and insults with very little substance if at all. All she said was 1950s-1970s was fine and dandy coz of me me me, and "Thaterites" have a wierd perversion and obsession with Thatcher which actually says more about her own mind than anyone elses. No actual facts, just emotive rhetoric delivered in a very unpleasant manner.
The amount of hate Diane Abbott receives is ridiculous. I think people just like to hate her, it really doesn't matter what she says. She could say the sky is blue and people will call her an idiot.
@@dablackangel Not hate amusement also incredulity at how this dimwit has lasted.
@@billisaac326 if you say so
@@dablackangel " It really doesn't matter what she says" ? Of course it matters what she says , that's why she's a laughing stock.
Bragg was so hard to listen to.....
Speaker 1, Charles Moore: 'orderly management of decline' (socialism, etc) vs 'a huge outpouring of possibilities for the British people' (Thatcher). Thatcher:
'I've just listened to seven speeches by men. The cocks may crow but the hen lays the eggs '
Speaker 2: Sir Peregrine: 'spectacularly and horribly destructive'; destroyed the 'great tradition of working class solidarity and comradeship'; destroyed the upper class paternalism
How come nobody has mentioned the 190,000 miners who lost their livelihoods respect and in some cases lives after the strike ended.Thatcher and co were responsible .
Can i remind you Sallie that the miners were offered very generous terms of severance whilst other people were being made redundant with diddly squat !
A 34 yr old miner could trouser £20000.00 and could have bought any number of 3 bed semis with front and back garden and garage for £18000.00 at the time. Talk about being set up for life ??. True, they might have had a period of unemployment for a while but sooner or later they would get something. They would then have no mortgage or rent to pay for the rest of their lives.
The miners with any sense took the money.
Hi scabbycat its been a long time since the strike happened I have forgotten how much money my dad trousered however I do remember at the time he bought a new TV and a music center..The poor bugger died with miners lung not long after.According to my family minutes before he died he spewed out coal dust from his lungs which projected across his hospital room.He was turned down for disability money always told , your lungs aren't that bad Mr.......come back next year.My dad worked down the mine for 42 years.The colliery houses[hovels] were sold off to landlords in the early 1990's , shops closed down and my once vibrant community's life seemed to die out.Remember Sheffield Steel went down the Swany , I stiill don't understand where jobs could be found without being relocated.
Foreign coal was lower in sulphur and cheaper. European emissions regulations also came in, let's not forget acid rain and sulphur was a key cause. Whilst I sympathize with people who lose their jobs Thatcher was there but ultimately wasn't responsible.
Wilson closed twice as many mines as Maggie...FACT!
As is obvious today, coal is a product of the past. At the time of Thatcher miners were very well paid for the jobs they had, it was no longer a dangerous occupation, but...it was time to remove coal from electrical production and to clean the environment. Miners felt they were owed a living, the NCB made substantial financial offers that many miners took, much to the anger of the miners true enemy, Mr Arthur Scargill. His idiotic union faded away into history.
Anyone from our working classes who votes Labour needs their heads read .Who wants their country to be run by another country?
I am an American, but I generally appreciate somethings about the Reagan/Thatcher era, i.e their strong opposition to Communism and getting away from this idea that the government can always do things better then the free market. The flip side is that the Republican Party/Tories did things that I loathed; .i.e. pandered to racial and sexual bigotry, opposed a democratic welfare state/safety net. This is why Clinton/Blair centrist/third way politics were so successful in electing center-left candidates to office.
I was a kid/teen during the 1980s - 1990s, and I regularly read both American and Foreign press. I also had British classmates, due to the fact that I spent much of my childhood in a foreign land. So, I got lots of pro-Thatcher and anti-Thatcher comments from people and from the press.
The trouble is, many people actually believe this rather large black woman, she is like many anti British Socialists, deaf to the truth. Only those who want to believe her or are themselves biased fools believe the hate this lady oozes.
Which year was this debate held? Had Lord Bell indeed had a drink with the lady the night before or just in imagination to offer lateral approach to his views?
Mhammed Said Abbas 2004
Worsthorne. Proof of the truism " there's something to be said of the aristocracy, and there's something to be said of the toilers. There is nothing to be said of anything between " !
Free education, free orange juice, and look how grateful you are luv!!
Like Dianne said, the welfare state is the reason she and many others are here. Thank you Clement Atlee
@@DavidDavid-kl4ru If only Welfare had been for indigenous populace only - and then the newcomers after they'd paid into the pot for 20-30 years! Soaring population with many more taking out at the front end before they have contributed is why we have the problems we do. The UK's infrastructure was only built for 50-55 million. Not the 68 million official or the 75million odd more likely given illegals,undercounting.
Those who want to serve their country expect to be paid large salaries .Prior to ww1,there was no salary for myself.
I don't think the point she was making was that free orange juice alone was the key to becoming one of the upper classes.
Also don't remember her claiming that her opponents were screaming racial slurs throughout the debate.
Are you feeling ok?
Diane Abbott. Not a serious debate.
Sir Peregrine did an excellent job of demonstrating why she was revolutionary and not a reactionary. She destroyed the "paternalism" the upper class felt for the lower class? That's a good thing. The lower classes had a vastly increased opportunity to accrue capital. People need freedom and capital, not be treated like house pets by the aristocracy.
Not heard from Billy Bragg these days.. Guess he's been replaced with Eddie Izzard.
No, too busy in his huge house in Dorset, with his white neighbours, to be bothered with anything political!
Without Maggie he wouldn’t have had a career.
That's not the way to judge the winners. The opposing team changed more minds, therefore they win.
Hold that debate in Liverpool or Dublin see what they say
@fluffymufti yay, another lovely stereotype
They just did up in Hartlepool, Teeside and Durham and guess what. We chucked Labour out. North East ain't like Liverpool Manchester, Sheffield or Dublin. You'd vote for a pig in lipstick with a red rosette called Gullible if it was put before you. I dare Abbott to stand in North East.
In Preston as well mate! You could stop 3 people at random in my home town who would do a much better job debating Thatcher and showing her faults than the 3 puddings here!
Wait...to debate whether or not The Iron Lady saved Britain...on the con side, they brought in a folk singer? Isn't that pretty much admitting they have no case whatsoever?
I am absolutely a Conservative, but I loathe ungraciousness. Not only is it low and reflective more upon the speaker than the object, but it never adds material to the debate. John Nott, your first words about Billy Bragg were un- gentlemanly and made me reject all that followed. Do better.
Shamefully perhaps, I focussed in on the section of this video which contained the address given by Diane Abbott. I concluded, after broadening my view to listen to the other speakers, that she was an intellectual pigmy among giants. Furthermore, she spent 5 of her 10 allotted minutes throwing out thinly-veiled asides on the upbringing of the speakers from her opposition.
This woman, who has inhabited Parliament, as she says, since 1987, seems to have not learned a thing while actually living through the political "film" in which she has been cast and given a role.
Although her argument was clearly passionate against the motion, she delivered a political speech, rather than one of an analytical nature, which would have been more constructive. In short, her discourse was ideological rather than objective.
Would a straight white male, with the same levels of intelligence and physical attractiveness have achieved so much as she has? I think not, I think she has un-fairly used her gender and race to advance her own career. As a conservative thinker myself, that's fair enough, but for a person like Dianne who is meant to be a Marxist the hypocrisy is not lost on me.
@@sliperysid You'll get no argument from me!!! She is undeniably behind the curve.
Bv has always happened to this
Why are people arguing against a historical fact? Britain is the only Western country that had to borrow from the IMF, the lender of last resort to failed countries. What Maggie did was save Britain from a wall of debt, and from the laziness of post colonialism, but she didn't create the wealth that ensued. What created the wealth was Britain's position in the EU. Brexit will change that. People who say they could have had their steak without using a knife are stupid and ridiculous. The three people who spoke against reality are demented, moronic or both. And not just when they trash Maggie. What is Abbott talking about? Another of her standup comedy acts?
Thatcher increased inequality massively, created a large underclass, made decent housing unaffordable or very difficult by now the young to middle aged, kept many more groups of workers in poverty and squandered state assets by selling them off cheap and losing most of the revenue. She destroyed much Industry, ran down public services and infrastructure especially outside London and encouraged people into massive debts. She was helped to be re-elected by having North Sea Oil revenues
Ummm what side will Diane be on??... And more importantly, does she know yet❗❓🤣
Lol before giving any reasons in favour of her view, Diane gives all the reasons as to why she's going to lose debate!!!
Who voted for Abbott? Who does she represent, not the traditional Londoners, most of them have been forced out, so who is it that votes for a woman who scores public schools but sends her own children to those very same schools, typical bloody socialist, do as I say, not as I do.
Fancy boy is GOLD at 1:25:29
😂 My Man burns socialism
I often say 2 things. 1) The best thing Margaret Thatcher ever did was allowing and encouraging people to buy their council houses. And 2) The worst thing Margaret Thatcher ever did was allowing and encouraging people to buy their council houses.
This is the thing, politics is rarely black & white- something people seem to have forgotten nowadays where they take sides like it's a football team.
If only she had built some new housing stock.
@@joanTO2023 Yeah, I could never work out why. It would have created loads of jobs, boosted the economy, and kept house prices lower.
Selling council houses was never the issue, the issue was not channelling the funds raised into the building of new housing stock.
Thank you Charles, everyone else can go home, especially the Marxists
GDP is a funny and abstract number.Things are included that do not create real values.
Nor does it relate to the standard of living.
True it's like a house price debt plus equity. Yet government insists that if GDP rises then living standards must be.
No mention of Keith Joseph.
Did Thatcher save this country of ours? The one thing that continues to resonate is her taking on the Trades Union Barons and eventually, her will did prevail. The consequences for the Trades Union movement and their membership has shown decline and influence for many hardworking people since. (This may have been brought about by the behavior of some Unions, but in the round has led to a decline for working people in the UK who have not got the clout to have a direct say in their future working direction.)
For me, the decline in our manufacturing base and an increase in the service sector businesses started around the early eighties and continues at a pace up to this day. The most striking example is the influence that the financial sector has had on the UK economy with the so-called Big Bang theory and as a direct consequence of unregulated practices, the near-collapse of the Banking sector in 2008 had dire consequences and has only just started to correct itself now.
Also, the massive sell-off of council houses at largely discounted prices and not allowing Local Authorities to replace the stock , but, hold the receipts on their balance sheets has led to a serious housing problem in this country for the future younger generation. The above exemplifies free-market dogma that is so associated with the Thatcher era and all that flows from the idealogy.
Ok, I relented, and listened to the blessed Diane
after all.
Her demeanor was the usual pouting smugness of self-righteous
outrage at a world annoyingly beyond her understanding. And many of her statements were simply untrue.
None of the speakers had said that human bodies had
been piling up on the streets during the 1970s strikes, as Diane pompously
claimed. It was the rubbish piling up on
the streets. The bodies were waiting unburied in the mortuaries.
She confuses a “sense of equality” with a sense of
unearned entitlement. In spite of pointing out how generous the British state
has been to her.
Being brilliant with numbers, as with everything else
(in her own view) Madam D. tells us that when she entered parliament in 1987, Thatcher
was in her forties. Thatcher was born in
1925. Maths seems to have got short
shrift in that great free education she is so proud of.
Not many men share Diane’s fetishistic view of ankles. Let alone her other weird fantasies in that direction.
She is right about the idiocy of allowing international
gambling scamsters to set up casinos in
Britain. She could have included all the
betting shop scamsters.
If she had the ability to understand it, she could
also have tackled the much bigger problem of Mrs T’s deregulation of banking
and “financial services” that led directly to the 2008 collapse of the house of
cards fraudulent farce.
Diane has greatly helped in ensuring Labour’s Jeremy
Corbin’s trouncing in the December 2019 election.
We need a credible left opposition. Not these idiotic clowns.
It's a shame that the three speakers against the proposition, except for Billy Bragg who I admire as a musician are not up to the task.
Thatcher didn't save Britain, because Britain was not in need of being saved. This is the myth of thatcherism - that Britain in 1979 was some awful place. Britain in 1979 was experiencing some consecutive poor years of economic performance. But France never had a thatcher - and France has a higher GDP per capita, higher gross GDP, they are more productive than us, they spend more on welfare than us, more on public health, have free universities. I'm not saying that France does not have it's problems - but look at the comparison.
But Britain was in need of being saved in 2008. The logical conclusion of Thatcherite economics brought the biggest bailout in the UK in economic history - which makes the IMF 70s bailout seem like peanuts (3.6 billion vs 700 billion). The legacy of thatcherism is a country divided, with massive historic levels of inequality, a lost decade of growth in wages and living standards (2008-2018) and a housing crisis - the last of which is a direct consequence of Thatcher selling off council houses, not rebuilding, or building any private homes either, and financial de-regulation and liberalisation with new instruments like CDOs which were a trillion dollar market by 2008.
Britain during the 1980s was a tale of two cities, high unemployment, inflation slightly more under control, low wages, de-industrialisation. How much the boom years of 85-91 (until another recession got Thatcher) was worth the title of 'saving' Britain.
She did not save Britain - and moreoever, she made it ok not to care, not to care that people suffer, in poverty or desperation to the extent that we now live in a society where there is very little of the altruistic spirit of the 1970s, but much of the identitarian self serving nature of the 1990s. All in the name of profit and higher growth (which has been quite average compared to the post war years) record low levels of investment in the real economy, an industrial base in tatters, leaving a service knowledge based economy highly tilted in favour of the public school elite, and privileged few.
So the very premise of the debate is totally wrong. Thatcher didn't need to save britain. Britain was doing just fine. But she did manage to ruin the social fabric of the country, to set in place events that would lead to the greatest economic recession in modern history and to a devastating housing crisis which will crush the very short dream of home ownership under thatcher - which was arguably her flagship economy policy. Her legacy is at best mixed.
"Patronising....moi?" John Nott
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nott
No she didn't save Britain. She was all for deregulation which has led us to the current crisis. Moreover she was sanguine about the closure of much of Britain's industry. She did not believe manufacturing when Britain provided services such as financial services. Consequently when financial services failed Britain had nothing to fall back on except flogging off publicly owned assets to foreigners on the cheap. We are still flogging off Britain now as governments since have followed her lead. Now the unions have been weakened we have food banks instead because the balance of labour and employers has become very unequal.
Better than being run by a bunch of hard left Marxists, hey.
Mikacool Better than a poke up the backside with a sharp stick maybe.
If you work hard and own your own home or your own business and perhaps a share holder with a middle income whilst also go on a few holidays a year then in some way whether you refuse to believe it or accept it you benefited from the very reforms of Margaret Thatcher. To understand and have a great deal to say that is valid for an argument look at what Britain was in the 1970s. Income tax at its lowest 33% highest 83%, tenants denied to buy their own home, shareholder dividends 98% tax, small business owners closed due to 3 day a week, big business closed and picketed by mass amounts of strikes even when one union had no dispute but was pushed on by another, double digit inflation (lowest average 17%), IMF bail out. Then comes double unemployment whuch was technically lower but in reality was higher than the 80s Why? Because state monopolys many under militant unions ie British steel/coal&leyland were propped up by us our taxes (so in effect it's still a subsidy so it isn't real employment if you are running at a loss). Easy to point out the critical stuff of her leadership but without it we'd of sunk years ago. Fantastic Britain Helen you want to go back to.
Tony Vasiliou I lived through the 70s and remember it. It was a great time for me. We did not pay such high VAT. In fact I'm not sure when VAT started but it certainly contributes to the tax burden and should be counted as part of it. Tax avoidance was not so widespread then. Britain had its own industries and as a result its workers were skilled in ways that have been lost now. Inflation was bad in some ways but wages went up at a higher rate and people earned more on their savings. There was a short term boost to the economy in the 80s as a result of financial deregulation but it has all ended in tears because financial institutions became reckless and were not subject to sufficient control.. It was much easier for young people to get a job in the 70s. Unemployment affected certain industries where people had no other skills when made redundant but young people with new skills had no problem getting jobs.State services such as British Rail provided good services at reasonable ticket prices considering they did not receive anywhere near the amount of subsidy from taxpayers, that private rail companies do. Tenants were not 'denied the right' to buy their own home. They did not have a right to buy council housing in the first place, because that was intended as a permanent resource for the community. Private tenants have no right to buy the houses they live in. Margaret Thatcher fleeced the public sector for political reasons in the hope that more property owners would mean more Tory voters. We are suffering the consequences now as a young generation struggles to buy housing or indeed afford any form of housing. Strikes could be a pain but they enabled workers to ensure they were not exploited. No zero hours contracts then. No food banks, without which some people would starve today.
Excuse me "tenants don't have a right to buy" what cobblers is that! ANYONE should have the opportunities to buy a home as ironically your very belief isn't at all for equal opportunity but for depriving the many and only making home ownership for the few. Don't talk to me about starvation in the late 70s many people (and most in my family who are by the way labour) did still remember the bread strike, 3 day a week where lighting and heating was restricted not to mention the awful pickets at preventing minerals and animal feed getting through from the Docks. The economy couldn't stay in a fixed state deregulation had to go through and firms had to enter modernization, had it of done so in 60s&70s it wouldn't of been as painful the transition itself. Speaking of rail 'good' services you say? Look at that very winter in 1978 when it all came to a grinding holt and not just from the weather but again from the mass demonstration for the minority who wanted to hold the nation to ransom. Now I've responded to much of what you just repeated back to me, now answer my first argument with honesty.
Diane Abbot, queen of the strawmen
I am not looking at a saved Britain now am I! The normal working man :( a 1 bed flat in my home town of london is £ 750.000.00 what chance have we made for are kids ?
hahahahaha why did you feel the need to absolutely fucking BULLSHIT and say £750.000?
You can get a 3 bedroom house half an hour (24 minutes) from the center for £574.000, you can get a flat IN the center (8 minutes walk) for less than 500k, how does it benefit you to lie? Does it make you feel better or something? the house prices in central london are OBVIOUSLY going to be nuts, that what having a global economic hub does.
www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/40949092?featured=1&#P7COS1OSLpAVH1ht.97
www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/40378673#tZ1p8JQpLThOtGWP.97
500k and do you think that's a fair price for your avaragde london worker who is on 30k a year ? So people need to borrow 17 time their wage to get a flat ! What's your point fella
Richard Longmore My point is you exaggerated to an INSANE degree, you can get a full 3 bedroom HOUSE for less than what you said you're just a measly 24 minutes from the center, Yes, if you want to live smack damn bang in the middle of it it's going to be expensive as fuck, hey guess what, if I wana go live on the Vegas strip that's gona cost me a shit ton, if I wana live 5 minutes from the eiffel tower, guess what? A shit ton again, what about central New York?????
I didn't even look for a meager good to okay house either that's a straight up large family home with a huge garden less than half an hour away!
I'm genuinely just confused as to why you need to say £750k for a 1 bedroom flat when I've sent you a 2 bedroom for less than 500k less than 10 minutes WALK from the center.
Yeah, your argument is kind of silly. London is one of the most if not the most popular city to live in, obviously housing prices will reflect that. Also, mass immigration has also driven up prices....you have to blame Blair for that one (mostly).
In most cities I know of if you want to live centrally it's gonna cost you much more than living in the suburbs.
I grew up in central London and work there why should I have to move to the suburbs ? And pay travel costs and wast 3 + hours of my life a day traveling on packed trains ? My argument is far from silly you can get a 2 bed flat in the hart of Madrid in a very nice area for €200,000 where the same in London is £500,000 - 750,000 oh yes and the trains are cleen run every 3 Minuits and only cost €1 to go anywhere ?
Diane Abbott? Lmao
O ânimo do de suéter cinza é simplesmente contagiante
The best and brightest used to want to go into politics to make history whereas now they go into business to make money. And that is good. Rather than their skills being wasted on parasitising off society and impoverishing it with their grand plans, they directly serve it (or suckle off the teets of the financial-central-bank complex, but that is another matter).
Why wasnt BB not speaking and having a special slot ???
Looks like its a One sided "For" speech
Diane Abbott, oh my word. Is she drunk again?
Sir John is bang on form and is still as razor sharp as ever!!!
Only good speaker against was a Tory! Bragg bizarrely too fair to give a polemic, strewing malapropisms and leaving Nott to mention industry! Abbott... *facepalm*. No-one dissed the post-war period, just the late 70s, and yes the bodies were piling up, burials at sea were mooted. Everything you could have said, and you pick that plus bottoms until two minutes to go! A couple of the audience members were the best anti speakers.
So T wins appropriately not least through poor opposition...
The panel is looking at the how.
Wasn't that the UK was ungovernable but the governing classes had no idea and Thatcher less. From working in Factories, on the Railways, roads et al. The management was terrible and noticeable wretched compared to other countries I also worked in, Canada, Denmark with friends in Germany. Every level of society was run by incompetents in every area. Talent was and is kept from rising so the management and creative classes came from an incredibly narrow funnel. This was the main and is the main cause behind the deck=line of the UK from the early 1900's into the present day. Folks above are talking Skatia, to talk the classics language and are of the same odour and kind. Thatcher brought in corruption at a new level to help take us into a dysfunctional form of capitalism that threatens all civilisation on Earth. See Trump etc. Peter L. Dollins.
Britain was not in good shape when Tacther took over. She might have been an unsmooth fanatic but she got a horribe starting hand and weird co-players. Obvioulsy she was very talented and hard working. I'm not British and defenitly not an ideological ally of her. But she was a good politican, kind off an important skill for a politican? In an ideal world "my preferable party" whould have such a strong leader but I can't blame her for being strong and talented but "vote wrong/prefer the wrong party" in a democracy...
Thatcher had a better claim than Robert Maxwell.
She did not remember what she did to Britain in her last years.
We would take about 60 years to
Recover what damage she did to
Britain...