Yang Long Form Is Not Just More Movements To 24 Form Tai Chi
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- čas přidán 24. 12. 2022
- In Yang Style Tai Chi, the popular forms are the traditional Yang Long Form, often called the 108 Form, and the Simplified 24 Form. This is an excerpt from our workshop that explains the history of Yang Style Tai Chi and dissects the differences between the traditional long form method and 24 Form method for the same movements. In this video, we highlight just the Brush Knee and Press movement.
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#taichi #taijiquan #yangstyle
Shirley, you are a breath of fresh air in the Tai Chi Community
❤️🥰
Master T.T. Liang taught me the long form first and it worked out fine. Appreciate your point of view.
The long form was created at the time when Tai Chi was an art of fighting, the 24 form also called simplified was created by imposition of Maoist thought, which broke with all the past and tradition of centuries.
The short form was thought to be easily practiced by the masses and dedicated to the control of the body, in the aesthetics and elegance of the movements at the expense of efficiency.
My sifu always taught the long form by dividing it into 3 parts.
And the part rpmiera is very easy, great for any age who wants to practice a little without major worries.
Thank you so much for sharing this 🙏❤️
So so interesting. In learning the 24 form I was getting the sense that some very good, precise instructions were starting to look a bit mechanical, with hard edges between the moves and even within a move. I keep thinking then about judging competitions, which it now seems the 24 form was in large part designed for. When I watch Aiping Cheng doing the long form I get an entirely different impression - one of extreme fluidity and continuity as of a single form is unfolding. I think this talk here explains why I am seeing what I am seeing. Thank you, teacher.
🙏❤️
I practice 24 and 108 forms, this explanation of the differences are of great help. Thank you🙏🏽
I'm so glad this was helpful 🙏❤️
A little over a year ago, I read an interview with Fu Zhongwen where he stated that the heart of Tai Chi is keeping your weight forward when transitioning to stepping forward with the other foot. After reading this, I experimented with it and found that you maintain forward pressure and it's easier to do applications. So I have started to implement the stepping you mentioned for the long form in the 24. It was refreshing to hear someone else mention the stepping differences.
Yes, the 24 Form was manufactured. Any applications that are shown using 24 Form is kind of backed into. You think about the movement and then work a relevant application into it. The long form applications make much more sense because the form evolved with the applications in mind over a long period of time.
@@AipingTaiChi This is another topic all together, but Can you explain why the thumb is inside the fist in many Qigong routines? I'm conflicted because it's a bad habit on the Martial Side of things.
@@Keitenrenbu In the Daoyin routines the movements aren't meant to be martial. The Daoyin exercises were designed for health preservation, not for martial arts. The thumb inside the fist is to put pressure on the point on the ring finger at the spot where the finger meets the palm, on the crease. This is a spot with particularly important significance in the Daoyin exercises. I don't remember why. I asked my Qigong professor a long time ago but I forgot the answer.
@@AipingTaiChi Thank you for taking the time to respond. You are the first to answer this for me. Is the ring finger wrapped around the thumb, or is the thumb touching the finger on or near the nail?
@@Keitenrenbu Of course, anytime! I may have another video that shows it better but I remembered I showed it in this one: czcams.com/video/6NBAqmbGHsk/video.html
IMHO that's the kind of content lacking seriously on CZcams for the Tai Chi community. Not bashing this is right, that is wrong but understanding the different aproaches of different lineages. And the key is not only explaining but performing the differences with all respect. For me it was verry exciting that I could feel [sic!]it - my home base under 108 but also understanding that 24 is more than a wishy washy constructed by an authoritarian regime. BTW would love to learn something in the same way 'bout Cheng Man Ching and his aproach.
Thank you so much ❤️🙏 Yes, there is so much really watered down terrible excuse for Tai Chi out there I wish our community of serious practitioners can stop fighting each other over legitimacy of lineage and start coming together.
Yang Style is so much fun
I study and practice Senfeng Pai but I started with Yang style almost 15 years ago
Whenever I teach someone, I start with The 8 gates of Wudang
Anyone reading this that doesn't know them they are :
1. Ward Off
2. Roll Back
3. Press
4. Push
5. Pull Down
6. Split
7. Elbow Strike
8. Shoulder Strike
They are the first explosive moves we learn
After they know this , I teach Yang Style 24
Then I teach Zhang Sen Feng Tai Chi 13 - The Mother style of all Tai Chi
Senfeng Pai is extremely difficult
I love performing Tai He Quan
It always draws a crowd
Thank you so much for sharing, that is really wonderful 🙏❤️
Why do you teach Yang 24 before Wudang 13?
@@yinyangthang because Zhang San Feng Tai Chi 13 is incredibly difficult for a beginner
Yang Style 24 is a introductory form
Or Wu style , which is a even easier style for beginners
Zhang San Feng Pai is not for beginners , cannot be properly learned without a instructor and Taiyi is 1 part of Wudang Zhang San Feng Pai
There is Tai Chi , Fist , one handed weapons , two handed weapons and Qi Gong
Tai Chi 13 isn't the first form learned , Ji Ben Quan is and I personally was taught San Feng Tai Chi Sword before I was taught Tai Chi 13
I was already schooled in Shaolin for decades before I learned Wudang
Now I'm learning Dragon Gate Wudang and it's extremely difficult
Even with 30 years of experience training I'm learning new things and I remain the forever student
I will never accept being a master or Grandmaster
There is always more to learn and I remain forever teachable
Ah, that makes sense. Thank you.@@ReformedCriminalD
Years ago in the Bay Area, 1970’s, I learned long form. It was the only form then, though later learned that 24 and 37 forms were taught. I picked up 24 form about 15 years ago and was pleased because it gave me an option. I’m in my 70’s and sometimes don’t have the energy to go through 30 plus minutes of tai chi. They are different, but like I said, it provides a option which I’m in favor of.
Thank you for sharing your wonderful insights 🙏❤️
I was taught long form to metro count . FRAME size to physical mental need. Speed for mental release 😌. True perfection in exact breathe work. Different days different practice keep it fresh enjoy your videos few have the insight 👌 👍 ❤❤❤
Thank you so much and thank you for sharing your practice 🙏❤️
Excellent breakdown Sifu, many thanks.
I asked my taiji instructor why he taught 24 Movement before the guangping form. He speculated that it was a good transition from shaolin quan in his system. (I didn't learn the shaolin) The 24 movement form could not maintain the alignments as he taught it. Because of this I prefer the Cheng Man Ching form for a short form.
Thanks so much for sharing that 🙏❤️
This is an excerpt from our monthly community workshop where we deep dived into the differences between traditional Yang style and 24 Form style Tai Chi. Rent our purchase the full workshop videos: vimeo.com/ondemand/24formvslongform
Watch workshop video for free and join our future workshops by becoming a member of our Patreon: www.patreon.com/AipingTaiChi.
I see the wisdom of teaching the short forms first. My Hao style teacher (Yao Pei-Jing, from Shanghai) created a short form of Hao during her first year here in the States, and that is what she taught. She only taught the long form once. It had so many tiny differences and repetitions throughout the set that I was the only one to "get it," as she put it. To do so, I stopped doing any other Kung-Fu for 10 years. I only did the Short Form in class. She usually taught the Short Form Hao style and then the regular Long Form Wu style. They compliment each other very well.
Here's what I know.
Mao outlawed ALL martial arts in 1949 (think of it as a weapons ban).
In 1955 He realized that the Chinese people needed a standardized exercise routine, he chose Tai Chi Chuan (taiji quan) as the preferred system (Mao was a big fan of martial arts, as the story goes).
Mao commissioned four masters to develop a standardized exercise set, the Yang 24 form for health, NOT martial arts.
The masters cleverly disguised the eight energies and five movements into the 24 form, and passed it off as the national exercise routine that Mao was looking for.
That is the primary reason that Taiji these days is promoted as a 'health' regimen, nothing more.
If you know where to look (and few people do), you can acquire a tremendous taiji quan martial skill set from within the 24 forms.
Very few 'sifus', 'masters', etc. know this.
Bill P.
💯
3:17 comment:nice point.-Ernie Moore Jr.
The long form Is 108 styles these styles were sometimes small and simple but not always. They are not just a movement so the full teaching is vast most think it's just 1 name for 1 movement but the style comes from a much bigger pool of knowledge. each technique has many different applications as many as 10 some a lot more
Very true 🙏❤️
So good to know
I kinda have to agree. The 24 form is good for beginners; and older students . it doesn't require as much endurance. Standardized movements means everyones 24 form is pretty much the same. Lastly; it's shorter, so people are more likely to actually practice.
🙏❤️
The best thing about the Yang 24 is that it attempts to be symmetrical, but at the expense of natural flow.
It's not even that symmetrical 😆
@@AipingTaiChi Ah, but I wrote "attempts to be". :-)
I learned yang style and was wondering why the short looks wrong to me key word is looks wrong, I haven't tried it.
This what I noticed when I used to do my set it was fluid automatic it I moved almost without thinking but when I watched shorter forms there seems to be stops then movement the long form to me was like being on a stream in a canoe you just move and its natural while the short forms that I have watched always seem to be like that canoe hits a rock here and then and changes direction again I am not putting it down , I have never really tried it ,it just looks different. The one reason why I would like to try out the short form is because I may be able to do it in my suit that I live in there is no way the long form I was taught could be done it would feel unnatural, which is why I do my 8 pieces of silk brocades, I can do that pretty much anywhere except for in my car lol
Short forms could have the same fluidity but 24 Form doesn't. I think it's mainly because the footwork was modified too much to make it easier to do for people who haven't trained their Kua. So it's an easier way to move but you sacrifice the Kua range of motion that makes the form more fluid
1:46 comment appreciating the basis stories.-Ernie Moore Jr.
🙏❤️
I would argue that the form doesn't really matter. For any particular form, you have to go through all the different frames.
Big frame to build release and internal force. Small frame to learn how to issue Jin martially. Low stance to build legs and stability. High stance to build root. Fast frame, etc.
Yes, I agree! I think of forms as a mechanism to learn techniques. Like a driving course teaches you to practice different driving techniques. It's hard to teach and learn techniques without something to guide the practice. But people get so attached to their form choreography. It's like thinking knowing how to drive around a course is the only thing you need to know about driving.
@@AipingTaiChi We could even take forms from other martial arts and make them become Taichi by applying the fundamental principles of the art.
Thank you for your response. Love what you do. I can't wait to get more advanced insights from you!
May I ask what are the forms you teach and practice?
This is a great video for beginners and improvers alike, myself being one of them. It's good to get away from mere choreography, although many people become drawn to it for the beautiful external flow that is visible. However, it's the principles at the heart of all Taijiquan that are where the real work needs to be done. The 13 postures of Taijiquan are the essence of all forms and styles, but it's so much to learn and practise. Then the methods to achieve this and put into practice are quite diverse. Some will lead people down blind alleys, others will lead people to real progress. Even experienced practitioners go through these experiences.
I can highly recommend a very good book that gives great insight into this process. It's called Wisdom of Taiji Masters by Nigel Sutton. It's thoroughly worth reading, not to learn Taijiquan, but to get a really good appreciation of how deep this goes. Of course, one can also read The Classics, which is a must. However, the book by Nigel Sutton is very much written in layman's terms with a Western audience in mind.
❤️🙏 Thank you for the book recommendation!
Oh dear, have only been to one class and I come on-line to see if I can reinforce bits and pieces of what we did. I love the philosophies of “bending stress” and interior work observation through body movement. But I am woefully ignorant of history of the masters, art forms and specific names movements of Tai Chi. Perhaps there is meaning behind the sequences and connections that I do not understand. I am not ambitious about Tai Chai, I am loose jointed and i would like to feel more of a sense of fluid ~ control and balance in my body and release the fear that I have learned from the instability without these. How to begin with minimal frustration? How to feel how my hands and feet legs move one another? Sources for Efficient learning? I will not continue if I cannot gain a sense of progress. Life otherwise too demanding. But these videos are fun😊Mary
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and experience ❤️🙏 Tai Chi practice can be frustrating in the beginning because there is so much out information out there but at the same time, they don't really provide a guide. This is because Tai Chi progress happens differently than other types of progress. It's a bit like baking. The baked good can only be as good as the dough. Making and forming the dough seem simple yet take a lot of time and practice and observation. At the same time, following a recipe step by step may not work for you because of the unique conditions of your environment and you will need to play around with it. The personal exploration is an important part of the practice and progress. Come into yourself and enjoy the ride of not knowing and learn to start feeling ☺️
11:17 The left knee exceeds the axis of the ankle, this is physiologically wrong and can lead to joint problems. To correct the position, simply move the left foot forward, or you can limit the forward movement of the knee.
Good catch! Very important to align the knees
This is a common misconception: that the knee can be injured by going forward of the ankle. Actually it goes in front of the ankle in walking! Also, more obviously, in doing a lunge exercise, or a fencing lunge.
It's true that in taiji the knee should not go ahead of the ankle, but not because it's bad for the knee. It's because you lose power that way. There's a wave of energy coming up from the ground through the front leg, and you lose a lot of it if the front leg is not vertical.
There are ways to hurt the knee doing taiji; the most common is allowing the knee to collapse into a valgus (knock knee). The important thing is to keep the knee pointing the same way as the toe at all times. The turning or twisting happens in the spine and the hip joint, never in the ankles and certainly not in the knees, which aren't structured to do that.
Do you know what is the self healing (organ) aspect of Brush Knee Stwist Step posture? And also, how it it used to Medically treat another person? And the Dim-Mak application?
No, I never learned those and are beyond my ability
6:11 no offense intended the move is-- "...and Push." Press uses one arm supported by the other hand. The forward hand would be a technique of Push from Taijiquan...one might say, perhaps.-Ernie Moore Jr.
The Chinese name of the movement actually doesn't have press in it. It's Brush Knee Twist Step. But the term Twist Step is a bit confusing for students. The 2nd most common name is Brush Knee and Press so I just use that. But I do see your point and agree
@@AipingTaiChi I appreciate the knowledge and consideration in your response. :-> -Ernie Moore Jr.
Can you teach another styles of taichi likes Sun style ?
Yes, I also teach Sun Style. I teach it live every Thursday evening 6:30PM - 7:30PM EST, for in-person and also online. You can try out class by booking a trial pass: app.punchpass.com/org/15587/classes. Sun Style Tai Chi will also be the topic for our January workshop. Every month my Patreon community votes on a workshop topic and we have a 2 hour workshop. From those workshop recordings I make these shorter CZcams videos so you'll see a future Sun Style video here on my CZcams channel around February time. If you'd like to join the workshop, check back to our Patreon and info will be posted soon: www.patreon.com/AipingTaiChi
I do not know Tai Chi , but for me the Chen is statically and feel more real wushu, but is hard to find teachers of that form.
Chen is more dynamic with fast movements incorporated so it's a great transition to Tai Chi from wushu or a faster movement martial art. There are many teachers around. You can try expanding your search term to Chen taiji or Chen taijiquan because many of the teachers prefer to use that spelling over the Tai Chi spelling. Good luck!
yor awsome
❤️🥰
0:57 comment:education
my GM Wu Bin ☯️
Longform seems easier to me.
It is not.
Yep: my age 66 108 🤪
😢
Uh-huh 9
😂