Can a Scottish Clan Sept Leave? How Do You Form a New Clan? Is new family tartan all there is to it?
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
- How does a Scottish Clan Sept form? There are many reasons over the centuries why such alliances happened. In most legitimate cases, it was a matter of practicality (resources, mutual protection, etc.). However in the 19th century, there was an enthusiastic expansion of the Clans as more and more people wanted in on the allure of Highland culture and ancestry. This resulted in some names being more or less arbitrarily added to the Clan rolls as septs.
The word "clan" comes from the Gaelic word 'clann' which roughly means "children of so-and-so". However, it is very expansive and does not simply refer to lineal descent from a common ancestor of the chiefly house. If this were so, clans would be tiny.
Clans mainly grew through the proffered loyalty of native men who accepted the authority of the local dominant family. And this expansion is where "Septs' came in. These dependent families had only a loose association with the Clan, or the chiefly family of the clan. For a wide variety of reasons, they allied themselves under the clan chief, taking him as their leader and protector.
Today, the office of Lord Lyon considers a clan to be a community that is distinguished by heraldry and recognized by the Sovereign of Scotland.
This essentially makes the chiefly family a "noble incorporation" since the arms they bear are granted, or otherwise recognized, by the Lord Lyon as an officer of the Crown. In other word, they are a form of noble because King or Queen says they are. This recognition extends loosely to the entire clan, though members not of the chiefly family are not noble. Clans with recognized chiefs are thus considered a "noble community" under Scots law.
A group without a recognized chief has no official standing under Scottish law. Clans may have lists of Septs; surnames, families or smaller clans that historically, currently or for whatever reason the chief chooses, are associated with said clan.
Despite what many think, there is no governmental list of clan septs. The decision of who is a sept of a clan rests solely with the clan membership and their chief (assuming they have one).
Sept names can be shared by more than one clan. So it is up to the individual to use their genealogy, family history and geography to determine the correct clan association.
So under what circumstances would s Sept want to separate form the "parent" clan? We are unsure of any strong reasons to want to do so apart from the leadership of the clan being somehow incredibly odious. In most cases, tis sort of desire comes from a sense of disassociation. Perhaps some dissatisfaction with how the local Clan Society manages its affairs in the Diaspora. The topic seems to be entirely North American - not something discussed in Scotland.
When has a sept ever left a Scottish clan to form a new clan? As of this writing, we don't have any easy examples at hand, so we invite comment! Historically, it seems that clan separations would have been more a matter of families roughly equal in power ending an alliance over a territorial dispute or something similar.
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A really great, thoughtful conversation. Thanks!
In original septs there were marriage alliances, so if you are from a sept you also are from the main clan as well.
In a way yes. As a Sept member you are either a member by marriage into the Clan, and/or You Pledge "fielty" or Loyalty to the Clan which means in order to make your living under the protection of the Clan, you and your Family work for the Clan. which further means that a portion of the yield of your farm goes to the Clan Chief and you as head of household responds and goes to fight when called to arms, no excuses. Life was tough back then. By today's standards it was filthy, primitive and brutal. Not many from our time would be able to handle the lifestyle of that time. Many more would not know what to do to survive. They would be deemed useless and a liability, and likely put to the sword if they weren't put on a farm to learn!
Yes, the most recent I know of is the Carruthers Clan (previous Chief circa 1790), with new chief determined circa 2016 by the Lord Lyon. Carruthers were a sept of the clan Bruce.
Its funny that you mentioned the Chattan Federation, being a MacPhàil this has come up before. Luckily it turns into a great fireside story/ history lesson and the idea goes away. I love the Chattan history, I wouldn't want to separate from that.
Macphail also shares a sept with clan MacKay aswell as clan chattan
Thanks folks!!
Macfie Chief was killed, so the Clan scattered and was no longer recognized. Some ended up under Cameron. 1980's Macfie was given recognition as a clan again.
Something similar with Clan Thompson in 2012
One possible example is Clan Pollock, having been a sept of, and still recognized as one of, Clan Maxwell. I'm a member of both, cause I can.
Years ago when I was a regional commissioner for Clan Pollock we would rent tent space along with Clan Maxwell and split the cost. We even had a special banner proclaiming our double tent "The Clans Maxwell & Pollock". We just saw ourselves as one big family anyway.
The only times that I've ever heard of Septs "rebelling" from a Clan was in the 45, when they refused to "come out" when the Chieftain called them to the Jacobite cause. This was done because they remembered the Govt backlash from the previous 3 Risings, and the fact that they had little faith that a new Rising would be successful. The promised French support didn't arrive and Charlie had little military experience.
It was risky, but in the end it didn't save them from the English Army.
British army, twit
My mother was a Carlisle. The Carlisle family is one five septs of The House of Bruce. I love and enjoy knowing my maternal Carlisle connection to this historical royal family of Scotland. I have both, a Bruce modern tartan kilt and one in the Carlisle family tartan. One year I competed in the Scottish seven heavy events at the Blairsville , Ga. Highland Games wearing my Carlisle family tartan kilt. It is a very comfortable kilt. It was built by D. C. Dalgliesh Ltd.
i got a qwestion coud you made a video of the great kilt (were you ken get wan and choud you were it in scotland ) thank you
KILT POWEEEER
im a macgregor sept id never want to leave the clan we have such a cool history and the 4th most bloodest war in scottosh clan history battle of glen fruin, we went threw stuggles against the cambells trying to kill us based on name
for all i know i could actually be macgregor but had to change name druing the time it was illigal to bare the name macgregor
The only recommendation I can offer is to do your geneology, either yourself or have it done professionally. Professionally will cost more but they will be thorough and will find more pertinent information you might need. Try to trace your line back as far as you can. Use any viable lead you can find. when you get back far enough Church records may be all you will have. Possibly some government records, and prepare to do some traveling. At some point you may have to cross the pond. Make sure all documentation is registered and court admissible so that you can legally claim any direct lineage you may find by their laws or ours. Remember; when you cross the pond you are going international, meaning that you will have to appeal to their courts as well as ours. When it comes to court either home or not I don't play! You shouldn't either! If there is any doubt, then there is no doubt hire a lawyer or "Barrister" I think is the proper term, to represent you. GOOD LUCK!
I’m a Campbell, and a McGill (sept of McDonald) how do you think I feel ahaha
Well I can imagine the clan on my mothers side (Baird) would most likely have connection in that sense to clan Farquharson possibly. Can't say for sure as I haven't actually checked though they both had land near each other.
Maybe the person who submitted the question would do well to join/start a local society or association of their clan or family sept. Maybe they have a need to feel more connected but are misinterpreting it as wanting their own. 🤷♂️
My ancestors were mostly Covenenters/ Plantationers > Ulster Irish who came to the US in. early 1700's. I am Scots/ Irish but from several or maybe even many clans. Is it appropriate to wear tartan? If so, which? I tend to use Blackwatch in the home and it is available for kit bags as an equestrian. Is that offensive?
well, the Irish have younger tradition of wearing kilts in comparison to Scotland, but the Lowland Scots which made a good half of the peoples that developed the ethnic group called "Ulster Scots", didn't traditionally wore Kilts until 1822, as it was traditionally perceived as a Highlands garment of the Gaels up there, but of course, nowadays you have less of a requirement to need to be of Highland Scottish descent to wear one, i would suggest you get a English border tartan, or a tartan from the Scottish lowlands.
@@maximilianolimamoreira5002 Thank you! Most interesting!
@@caroleinwv just remember that there are some tartans that have a restricted use.
@@caroleinwv
Ulster Scots were Protestant
people from Lowland Scotland.
Most (if not all) of the Highland
Clans were Roman Catholic.
It kind of goes both ways, on the one hand yeah, what's the point? On the other hand, is your clan giving you grazing land and military support? No? Historically a very good reason to leave them.
The real question I have is how do you go about getting the entire sept to agree on anything? One rebel without a cause isn't going to so much as stir the pot.
Im pretty sire tgat the irvines were a sept of forbes but broke off in the 15-1600's and became its own clan.
Yeah Miller was all over the place due to it being a trade name that became a surname/last name. It's my surname but mine is German in origin (Mueller). However I qualified for Clan MacFarlane (International Clan MacFarlane Society, recognized by the Lord Lyon) as a direct descendant of an Allison. Allisons are claimed by four clans. Like Millers they were all over the place. However the origin of the Allisons is a clan that DID break off from another clan. Alisdair Mor is the founder of Clan MacAlister. He is a direct descendant of Somerled, the father of Clan Donald. In a dispute, some of the MacAlisters broke off from Clan MacAlister. The list seems to verify geographically that they did spread out going where they felt was best for them, being that they are septs of MacPherson (Ellis, Ellison), Clan Donald of Clan Ranald, MacAlister and MacFarlane. There is a Clan Allison, there is a tartan and a clan crest as well but it is not recognized by the Lord Lyon. The story goes that each Allison had their clan loyalties but they did still stick together.
Are there any tartans for the region of Bretagne, France? We are celts too!!!
Oui, voir sur la Maison du Kilt :)
I have a cousin name John Miller and his family descend from clan MacFarlane so I nicknamed him Millfarlane
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I'm a Peden descendant, and we're a sept of clan Mac Lean with rights to wear the Duart tartan.
I'm pretty sure I read some years ago of a family which was a sept of a clan until a member was raised to the peerage and declared "the chief of that name". Since a peer could not be "subordinate" to a commoner (most clan chiefs are technically not peers of the realm), the family then became de facto a clan. Sorry I don't have more details. I'm not even sure how long ago it happened. Nevertheless, it makes sense in that context.
That makes sense.
Clann CIAN?
Sept tend to be relatives of one or even several clan through marriage and, or descent, with alliances to stronger clan traditionally built that way. My clan is Caruthers (direct line dating back to 1135) linked to most within Scotland, but more specifically Dumfries and radiating to the Bruce (One of my direct line grt grandfathers was Steward of Annandale and fought with Robert the Brus at Bannockburn, etc), Douglas, Stewart, Murray, Johnstone, Livingston, Armstrong, Sinclair, Campbell, Grant, Angus, Leslie, Lindsay, Home, MacDonald of the Isles, MacKenzie of Seaforth, MacDougall, Gunn, Watson and so on.
how are you doing, man?
@@maximilianolimamoreira5002 doing fine and yourself?
@@gazpal tired as ****
@@maximilianolimamoreira5002 never good, but here's hoping you're feeling refreshed tomorrow
@@gazpal yeah, sometimes I have insomnia, but that is because I'm a heavy sleeper, and when I sleep too much in the day, I lose it in the night, and that is a problem, because, next year,i most likely will have the serve the military, because in my country you have to obligatorily enlist in the army, but not everyone end up joining the army for a long time.
you can't unlatch yourself from your original clan. You can't get a divorce from your clan. You can form a new clan, and it happens pretty regularly due to things like a chieftain not being of Scottish descent but married to someone who is, or the discovery of Scottish ancestry in DNA, but not having solid genealogy to know your original clans, like the creek Indians who are a recognized clan.
No one should give a crap about lord Lyon's opinion anyways because he's not the boss of clans, the chieftains are the boss of their clans. Clans go back to the picts and the norse and probably well before that, and are still strong in many families, my own included and we are a very clannish bunch and keep the old ways and traditions of our clan, but likely would not have had the Scottish immigrants not intermarried with the Cherokee clans in the 1700s, who fiercely preserved the traditions and customs in the US. Joining the clan is commitment and requires an oath of loyalty and aide to other clan members, having disputes mediated by the chieftain and committing to the defense and support of other clan members; for us it's not some dumb social club with dressing up the way most people view it, it's a serious responsibility to others and you can absolutely get booted out and exiled from the clan, just like you could 1,000 years ago. Clans provide a consistent support network, a sense of belonging, a unified force to bolster the individual, the family and the community. Each family is expected to self support, but the clan exists to rally around those families in times of loss, grief, hardship and to celebrate their lives and achievements together. mothers and aunts will go to the home of new mothers to help with cooking, cleaning, the other children, making sure all the bills are paid, repairs for the house are done, etc. the clan has a fund for financial support of members during times of hardship. It means more than a stupid tartan and some old laird's stamp of approval, and you certainly don't need to be Scottish to have a clan. Clan is a way of life.
Imagine declaring independence today and a bunch of Campbells show up on your doorstep with clubs and pitchforks.
everyone must have historical beef with cambells
@@user-vy3rc4yn1c slaughter under trust is frowned upon even by the lowest of the low. Even in the mountains of Afghanistan they won't harm a guest under their roof.
@@rc59191 the Anglo Saxons in the gathering with Vortigerns Britons shows how this is not always respected, but what to expect of a clan with a name that translates to "crooked mouth"? only betrayal, murder and suffering.
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Clans are outdated and largely irrelevant, changing your affiliation is really pointless. That being said, it's a really cool fan club that I am proud to associate with, for better or worse.
you know that's what happened to the Logan's and the Maclennans. the Maclennan have broken off and made there own clan even if they still wear the same tartan
Why?
When did this happen?
@@here_we_go_again2571 no body know exactly but there is evidence to prove that the tartan could be a district tartan for the area of restelrig and that could be why
@@PatrickDionneKuno
Interesting Thank you.
One of my great-great-(great?) grand-
fathers came from eastern Scotland "Taylor"--
I think that it is part of clan Cameron? But
"Taylor" the name was spelled differently
(more French-sounding) Is Edinburgh in
Highland or Lowland Scotland?
Why are Clan motto's in Latin? If there is one language they should not be in, it is Latin.
i think it's because most of them were created when Latin was a language of prestige, used predominantly for writing documents and the like, but i know most of their war cries were in Scottish Gaelic though, if anyone can provide more information about it, write it down.
@@maximilianolimamoreira5002 We still use the Scottish Gaelic word for "war cry" today: "slogan". Sluagh-ghairm
@@AbuMaia01 yeah, i know it.
The language back then was the language of the church and the bible was spoken in Latin. That is, when they weren't speaking Scottish-Gallic. That is why most mottos are written in Latin today, mostly out of tradition, (Which most of us like.) You can google the Latin motto and ask for a translation or get a Scottish Blazon of arms and that will do the same thing plus you will have a very neat looking and frame worthy certificate to hang on your wall. Usually you can find a Heraldry Research Company outlet at your State's Renaissance Festival. They will have them there. Try to keep an open mind, Latin is not a bad thing.
@@AbuMaia01 Brilliant! I just learned something new tonight. Than you for that!
Ah, to succeed from the larger clan...
Why?
The only reason I can see would be monetary. Having your own clan seperate allows the limitation of the tartan, family name use in some cases. To copywrite it in a way.
Yuck!
Just be happy that the bigger clan took your ancestors in so long ago...or you might never have been born.
In order to split from an established Clan you would have to rally or gather all of those of your surname and the variants and have them elect you as their leader and chief which will be a MAJOR world wide undertaking then present to them what you want to do and why you want to do it and get their vote of approval on it. The odds on this happening is very small because very few would take you seriously,and very few of them would go along. Then, assuming you would were successful you would have to appeal to the Lord Lyon in Scotland and this would be where it would start costing you thousands of dollars because Scotland likes things to stay as they are, and you would be the one footing the bill in this or you will find yourself loosing followers and supporters by the dozens. There goes your new Clan! So much for loyalty! Face it, doing something like that is much too disruptive. Its asking people to gather under your banner which is one thing, but to ask them to part with their money for the cause is quite another. And before you ask, Yes I am a Sept of Clan MacLean on my Dad's side and Clan Smith on my Mother's side. Smith is a Sept Clan of Clan MacPherson, and bot MacLean, Mac Pherson and by proxy Clan Smith are members of Clan Chattan Confederation who fought at Colloden Moore in 1746.Yes I am very proud of this. I found out all of this as a result of my research with the help and encouragement of you guys here at USA Kilts and "Kilts and Culture" and your many informative "How to videos." Through you I have learned so much and helped many. Thanks Guys!
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