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MASTERING FOR VINYL | Streaky.com
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2019
- Do you need to have two different masters for streaming and vinyl? I give you my thought as a vinyl and streaming mastering engineer.
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Now vinyl masters. There's no necessary reason why you should need a different master for vinyl than you do for CD or for streaming. Yes, there are things you can do. And it depends how far you want to go with your vinyl master, but the basics are if you've mastered it correctly, so there's no excessive top end. The bottom end is in phase and it's not too low. Then it should translate straight across to a cutting lathe. And they shouldn't need to put any filters on it. The reason why they do that, is because lathe doesn't like essy noises. Because the stylist goes left to right when it's in the top end. When it's very fast frequencies. If you've done physics at school, you will have seen that it goes first the waveform, and then it's the waveform slower, when you're in the base frequencies.
So what you want to do is, if it goes really fast, so if it's super bright in the top end, then what happens is it goes really fast the friction on the desk causes the cutter head to heat up and then the cutter head will pop out, but also you can blow the cutter head. So it won't cut the lacquer correctly. So you can't have excessive top end. You have limiters and stuff on the lathe. And in the low end, the phase the left and right, if it goes out of phase it will pop. It will go inwards. And it will then pop the stylus out as well. So you need to have a good left and right, sort of solid base in the base end.
So they're the kind of limitations, there are others. But they're the basic ones. And so if you've mastered correctly with that in mind, and you should do that anyway, because [inaudible 03:19:23] bass never sounds good and too much excessive top end never sounds good either. So if you're mastering for download or CD. Then you're not really going to have those on there, as I say. So that should just be able to cut flat to a lacquer, and that's fine. But the problem is if you get a bad cutting plant, then what they'll do is they'll put a filter across the top and a filter across the bottom. Because what they want to do is just as a safety net for themselves, so they can get it onto the lacquer really easily. They'll do those cuts so that it just goes through and it's quick. Because when you're cutting lacquers, they're expensive the lacquers. So you don't really want to be losing loads of lacquers because it starts eating into your profits.
So the quicker way to get it cut, if it's just someone who doesn't want to lose a lacquer or two. You put a lot of filters on. Loads of high end filter, low end filter and elliptical filter to mono the base and then you sort of slam it onto the lathe. So it's going to start sounding different. Because you're losing top end, you're losing low end, and you're mono the base. So that's why I suggest to people a lot of the times if they are going to get vinyl press, then they should go to a proper mastering engineer and get him to make the lacquers, or her to make the lacquers. Because in that way when you get a test pressing back from the pressing plant, you can then send it to the mastering engineer get them to check that against what they did and against their digital version of it. And it should sound exactly the same. Maybe a touch warmer from the lathe, but really should play pretty much identical.
Then you can say okay, have their different processes they can do to take top end off or have they put filters on it? They shouldn't have done and then you want to go back and do all that. This is why I don't cut vinyl anymore, by the way, because it's just a nightmare.
So all of these things are things that can go wrong. But that doesn't necessarily make any differences for the master that you're giving to the plant. Ideally, take it to a mastering engineer who has a lathe, that's your best bet. But if you don't have the budget for that, then you're going to have to go direct. So now there is another way to present a vinyl master, you could drop the level down. So you might not want it to stay as limited. So yeah, they’re your basics - make sure there's no excessive top end and no lows. If you've gone to a decent mastering engineer, then they'll know that anyway. And you should be able to cut flak from that. There's no necessary reason for you to have a different master for vinyl and for CD or downloads.
Good info on making sure the bass isn’t out of phase and making sure the top end isn’t excessive, but I have to disagree with the “no need to have a different master for vinyl than digital” message. Vinyl doesn’t have the same dynamic range potential as digital, so there is absolutely no need to use the same (loud for digital) masters for it. If anything, vinyl as a medium is the perfect opportunity to use more dynamic (less limited, not mastered with loudness for digital in mind) versions of a project. It shouldn’t be too soft either, but a fine balance should be achieved between loudness and punch, and having a more dynamic version on vinyl is truly giving your listeners a different experience than the version they’ll hear on digital. The majority of new comers to vinyl usually say old records sound better (and that’s likely because those old records were using pre-masters for vinyl that weren’t limited/compressed as much as audio is currently for digital).
Lui Franco yes vinyl is warmer but when I master a track I like the compression sound I get from the limiters and that is the sound of today, so I want that sound on vinyl too. Otherwise it doesn’t sound like a finished modern record to my ears.
I agree some of the old vinyl and cd’s pre 2000 tracks sound great as limiters weren’t used then only to stop digital overloads for cd...but the sound of today on most genres is a limited sound.
"Vinyl doesn’t have the same dynamic range potential as digital" Exactly. Isnt it funny and paradox that we have arrived at a point where, the more dynamic music is being put on the medium with the smaller dynamic range ability (in this case Vinyl) and the most heavily compressed and non dynamic matterial is being put on the medium with the highest dynamic range possibilities? (in this case Digital). Btw i don`t 100% understand your argument about "so there is absolutely no need to use the same (loud for digital) masters for it" . Its a bit contradicting the way you put it. Vinyl as you say has the smaller dynamic range ability so why should one want to put music with more dynamic range on it?
@@Streaky_com Yes. But does not mean that todays sound should be or stay the standard. To say that "the sound of today" which very often is -2 or - 3db rms and a philosophy of musicians, producers and engineers like "who am i to go against that?" is what led us to have music without dynamics and 60 times more distortion than a few decades back and 1/5 the dynamic range of before the Loudness War. Which is quite narrowminded (i mean in generall not you) . Ironically this way we are using only a fraction of Amplitude which in terms of music is Literally like taking one Dimension out of the Equasion. This is like having the chance to watch a sunset and then choosing that its better to print a nice 2D foto and look at it cause its "the way it is today" and more convenient and "you see what you need to see. why not?" . I personaly dont find this very intelligent and the Future producers one day will look back and say "yup they chose not to use any dynamics when they actually had the bigest dynamic range possible if they wanted to. Funny people" . You can use distortion if you like a "screaming" sound but i always find hypercompressed drums (i mean any drum. Incl 808 and anything immitating percussion) to sound flat and to ALWAYS sound better with more dynamics. I will prefer people with live drums dancing around a fire in a tribe as an example of what good (sonically ) dance music is-can be as opposed to a majority (not everyone but the vast majority) of drunk, drugged people that need a siren like screaming music inside their ear in order to call it "good music" or to notice they are listening to music at all. The distortion levels today are not funny anymore. But thats only my 2 cents. I have been wrong before. Maybe the way music is being produced nowadays is the best way to go. Who knows. History will show
@@Streaky_com I agree 100% with Lui Franco and Saar Dean. And that modern "sound" is exactly why "everything" sounds the same now a days and is absolute crap, the junk food of music.
Need to cater to customers but vinyl is the perfect opportunity to not ruin a good mix with limiting and clipping.
Some more vinyl videos would be great, very interesting topic. Could you put your other vinyl videos into a vinyl playlist?
1. Ideal LUF-S range ? I Did a vinyl befor mastring by me self, went well but a bit low. Want to get it just a little bit louder this time. 2. I’ve made a Mid/Side chain on my one muting the track sending it to four busses with bus1MiD - bus2Side - bus3Left - bus4Right eqs. High passing and low passing the difrent ranges to fit my desired crossover passages.😅 I find it widens the image quit a lot. Will this be a problem as a vinyl master? 3. Ideal crossover frequency for mid/mono???
I really hope you wat to answer this questions. Loved this episode, will follow and like everything I watch.
It happens the same, with the rule of to much low & top end, to much wide stereo gonna cause the jump a distortion of the stylus. Its recommended the bass in mono, and mid side process cutting the lows in the side. 200hz to 20hz , calibrate depend on the track.
Im so happy I found this gem of a channel.
Ok this cleared up a lot for me. I have a 12 song LP im releasing next year. Im thinking about doing vinyl sells with. Glad i wouldnt have to pay get the same song mastered completely differently twice
Is out of phase bass or stereo bass the problem? I know people say "mono the bass" but here you discuss phase issues. A panned instrument is in the sides and mids but not out of phase for example. I recently discover that some say its a myth to do on every track, but it wasn't specifically about vinyl, i am unclear whether its still a good idea for vinyl.
What kind of loudness? I barely use over 3db GR anyway and louder tracks go to -10 or -9 lufsi. But quieter tracks i make sure are over -14 and set the others by ear within a degree.
And sibillance? Is it fast treble stuff? What about some really abrupt granular synth sounds? How can those hard attacks be treated? Saturation? Fast limiter? De-ess?
One more! Is it bad to dither for vinyl mastring????
What about the RIAA curve? Don't you apply that in the mastering stage as it cuts to a laquer and the playback amps in turntables do the opposite of the curve applied at mastering to keep from excessive bass and high end?
Odin OfficialEmcee the lathe does that automatically
@@Streaky_com Oh, ok! I thought there would have been an actual outboard EQ or something but that makes way more sense, for the sake of consistency
ALL CLEAR SIR ! thanx a lot for your afford ...
Thank you for sharing!
Only some things are certain: a lot can go wrong, distortion will go up (a clipped master is best avoided), allow extra time for manufacture, and always order test pressings for approval. Keeping the *side lengths* in check means there shouldn't be much of an issue with lows or high end (the latter is more problematic).
Keep it 24 bit and the original sample rate - not because numbers matter but because it avoids extra, unnecessary conversions.
No benefit in peak limiting/saturating/clipping or worrying about a particular digital peak level. The "louder" it is as a digital master, the more they'll turn it down for cutting anyway.
original sample rate? 41 or 48?
@@GabrielEugenio87 either is fine, just keep to the original sample rate. Even 44.1k gives enough bandwidth for the cutting head.
Melhor master do vinil são as fitas magnéticas.
I'm not distributing on vinyl. But I do want to get myself a single copy on vinyl just as a sort of trophy for myself after making the album.
So as a safety net, I can probably take my digital master, put a low cut at 20hz, mono below 80hz, then dip a baxandall shelf on the highs?
Will that do the trick?
Again, I'm not distributing on vinyl, I'm just making a single copy. So it doesn't need to sound perfect. I just don't want screw up the lathe.
Great info! Give us more vinyl info!
analogkid 455 yes👏🏻👏🏻
Agree! More in depth please!
ive got some songs that are very limited / electronic, but alongside other mainstream music, the master would be considered good. is this gonna be a problem? or can modern cutting handle really flatlined songs?
Signal is extremely filtered anyway, RIAA curve, it’s an Elefant in the room that’s actually probably bigger than the room…
they have to do that to make the needle not pop out of the groove
How do I check if my bottom end is in phase?
Listen to your mixes in mono. If it sounds like something is missing, you have phase issues.
Listening is the key, but also don't forget to check your analyzer, specifically correlation meter. Also, goniometer is very informative (you can temporarily cut the highs to observe your lows).
How much to buy for a record cutting.
Leave head room, if you go to tight you prl get compressed by the manufacturers and when you get the vinyl back it wont sound as in your original mix.
The best sounding music I've ever heard is by Steven Wilson but he doesn't master any of it so you just get a well mixed record with high dynamics.