Probably a coincidence but I was looking for a method to calculate the TOD without the VNAV. This tutorial video is spot on ! This method might also work for the Airbus 320 I guess.
Could you possibly make a video where you explain the descent management where you get a lot of step-downs from below 10.000ft until glide slope capture (continues descent all the way down with no level offs)? With vectors like they do into Stansted where its a bit tricky to anticipate whats going to happen next.
I used to do this crap all the time simming the old six pack airliners but to be honest with you I kept it clean and simple with the corrections. Only really did wind/decel corrections. Weight and qnh for me were overkill when already running at high mental workload. Worked out ok. Could barely add 2+2 together when on blocks
The good thing with weight and QNH is, you figure those out once and then never again as they don't change in a meaningful way during the flight. That makes it easier!
Sorry, my armchair-virtual-atpl-license mandates the use of VNAV :D But I did manage without in the time FBW didn't have it with the 3xFL rule. But thank you for the explanation, very interesting! :)
This was a very good video, very detailed. One where you want to take your own notes on for sure. I noticed some arrivals (like in Chicago) don't always have altitude restrictions so if you are using VNAV on the arrival you will be mismanaging the descent. Look at some of the arrivals from the east to 10C as an example.
Thank you very much! What do you mean with "some arrivals (like in Chicago) don't always have altitude restrictions so if you are using VNAV on the arrival you will be mismanaging the descent"? Why would you mismanage the descend if there are no altitude restrictions? I'd say quite the opposite, VNAV would calculate the perfect path.
Thank you so much for your continuous efforts to bring the do's and don'ts of this bird to the community ❤️. I have to admit that I always hesitated to purchase a PMDG product as I was thinking to not be at a level to master it, even though I know the Fenix by heart as I've been always an Airbus guy in flightsim. Now for Christmas I decided to give the 700 a try mainly because I did miss a decent A319 in MSFS. What should I say after a couple of days I also bought the 800 and finally the 600. I do simply love these birds and did not have any issues to get used to them. This is because of your brilliant videos. A big thank you for that. Now really my FS hangar has the right plane for each occasion from both main manufacturers and PMDG another happy customer 😀 .
Thank you so much for your kind words Andreas, I'm really happy to hear how well my videos have helped you! I'm sure you'll love the 737s even more the more you get to fly them!
Currently doing my line training in 737 and descent management seems to be the most difficult part mostly because every captain has his own way. Some prefer vnav, others level change etc. All correct but all different and somehow that confuses me.
yeah, that was a hard part for me as well. If I'd be in that position again I'd just go into the FCOM or OM-A and see what your airline wants you to use. If your airline says VNAV, just use VNAV. If they prefer other modes, do those. As long as you can give reason for why you're doing things as you're doing them you should be good. Having a book to point to is always something good! Which of course does not mean that you shouldn't take your captains advise, they will be able to provide you with a lot of insights on matters you still need to gain experince on.
Rarely do I use VNAV. I preferer to use formulars mainly to see my accuracy and timing arrivals, so satisfying to get it right over the computer. I love to see Emanuele do a video on triangulation without a computer or reference points. Maybe charts and a watch. The DC6 would be perfect?
This is good. The BAe 146 doesn't have vnav and calculating the descent was certainly an experience 😄. Hopefully I'll be able to transfer some of this knowledge to that plane
Fantastic video Emi. I have 2 questions if I may. 1) Does the rule for hectopascals convert directly when using inHg as pilots in the states do, or is there a different rule for that? 2) If the QNH is less than the standard 29.92 would I do the opposite and take NM off the track distance? Apologies if this was explained and I just haven’t grasped it!
Basically you'd skip the safety inspection and go straight into the preflight procedures. While not a tutorial I did do a lot of turnarounds on my livestreams so far so those may be a good source to check.
this seems really overcomplicated, only descent rate, height and speed is needed, you can make some minor corrections for a headwind or tailwind and pressure difference but unless you're flying in a hurricane what will that really do, add a few miles? just start a bit early and you can always reduce descent rate if you need
yeah, say you're going to descend from FL280 to 5000, and the QNH is 30.08, the rule of thumb is about 9ft per hundredth inch (lets round to 10) so at 29.92 you are actually 160ft higher (kinda pointless but bigger pressure differences exist I guess), that means we have to lose 23160ft, so let's say we'll descend at 3000fpm, choose any descent rate you're comfortable with it doesn't matter, you would need to descend for 7 minutes to lose 22000ft and another 20 seconds to lose 1000ft (and another 3 seconds to lose the 160, totally pointless) we have a ground speed readout here so we really don't need to correct for wind or anything, a knot being a nautical mile per hour means that at your GS of ~450 6 of those minutes are 45nm, the remaining minute is 7.5nm, and the 20 seconds 2.5nm (and the 3 seconds less than half a mile, again totally pointless), so 52.5nm total, just add a safety margin and adjust descent rate as required to make up the difference and if you already have a descent rule of thumb like x miles per thousand feet or whatever you don't need any of this, just use that instead repeat for any amount of legs your procedure requires I don't know where your calculation comes from but it involves a lot of non-factors with weird rules of thumb that make no logical sense
That's the difference between professional flying and dentist flying. For a dentist it might not matter if you constantly need to use thrust or the speed brake, but for an airline with loads of flights every day things add up and can ultimately make millions of difference for the airlines.
Do you ever notice the tail wagging in the PMDG starting at minute 5:10 happen in the real aircraft? I've never seen it wave back and forth so aggressively on any other aircraft. Does PMDG have this on their backlog of "to fix"?
Hi again captain :) I want to ask couple of questions and if u answer shortly I really appriciate( Im in Lifus B737 ) 1-What is the difference between changing target speed 280 or using level change? also between vnav speed and level change? arent they almost the same? 2-I know you mentioned in the video but ı couldnt find again. When should we start slowing down if it is not straight in approach?(I mean followin full arrival)? 3- also in bad weather conditions when should we start extending flaps?
Hi Eray, 1) Changing the speed target in the FMS adjusts the VNAV profile for the new drag situation. Thus you get more accurate VNAV path indications than if you just used LVL CHG. 2) Same as for straight in approaches. Use the PROG page to determine the distance along your route. 3) No difference between good and bad weather conditions.
Emi.. I have a question about the reliability of the vnav desecent in the pmdg 737.. is it always spot on or do you sometimes hafta intervene yourself? For instance on some approaches from cruise thru a star it works just fine. But other times it tends to slow its descent leaving me with having to manually descend. I learned long ago how to make my own descent without having the luxury of a vnav system and star approaches. Is this a msfs thing or is the vnav like that in the real 737 also? Also.. when there is a step descent in the flight plan .. what should I set the mcp altitude before initial descent during cruise?
If you stay on top of it, it works very well. Of course the basic computer principle of "shit in, shit out" does apply, so if you deviate from your path be proactive and do something about it. Get too high? Increase speed or use speed brake. For Cruise Descends just set the new altitude on the MCP and press ALT INTV. If you're more than 40NM from your T/D the plane will enter cruise descend, if you're within 40NM it'll go into early descend.
I would love to know how you manage transition at German airports (and some Italian ones). So for example you're flying into EDDM and approaching ROKIL. Would you know if to expect the transition or maybe get a shortcut so you can reprogram the FMC early? What if you follow the transition but then get told to go direct to line up for the approach and you're too high. Do ATC tell you when to descend as I don't use ATC and just VNAV/Managed Descent?
You'd know that you'll be cleared for the transition. I'd always plan my vertical profile to expect a shortcut, normally turning base when abeam the FAP. Once you get onto the approach frequency you'll have to listen out to the other traffic to see what kind of shortcuts they get and to make out how busy it is, that'll usually give you an idea what to expect. If you are unsure just ask ATC for the trackmiles.
@@A330Driver Ok, and if you don't get that shortcut for whatever reason (maybe spacing behind an A380) then you just level off or reduce descent rate?
Quick question- Using Fenix Airbus but I assume the same rules apply. I did calculations and ended up 10 nm further out starting descent than TOD. Is that an acceptable distance with the rough calculations or should they be nearly identical?
The reference weight of 60t is obviously not applicable, but there will be a similar reference weight for every aircraft type. Which one that is however, is something I can not tell you. The rest of the rules will more or less apply, for sure the 3/1 rule for determining the general distance from T/D to Touchdown and the wind corrections as well. Most aircraft also slow down somewhat similar to the 737, meaning approx 1NM per 10kt.
Yes, if you target altitude on autopilot panel this green banana shows you where you’ll maintain your targeted altitude. However I think it calculates it based on your current wind, speed of climbing/descending etc. and not future wind on different flight levels unless you type them in DES > Forecast page But I’m not 100% sure about the second fact
737Driver yo should try this in the Aerosoft CRJ. That would be the Perfect Plane for this.....I just bought it and cant stop flying it its Amazing! I think its still on sale 550/700 $35
The CRJs were really nice when they first came out, but by now I prefer the more complex aircraft released in the meantime. Indeed, descent management was really interesting in them!
Probably a coincidence but I was looking for a method to calculate the TOD without the VNAV. This tutorial video is spot on ! This method might also work for the Airbus 320 I guess.
Could you possibly make a video where you explain the descent management where you get a lot of step-downs from below 10.000ft until glide slope capture (continues descent all the way down with no level offs)? With vectors like they do into Stansted where its a bit tricky to anticipate whats going to happen next.
Thanks so much for making this one! Appreciate you taking the suggestion!
Thanks for the idea!
Oh my lord. I’m excited Barbados is my country wow. Glad to see Barbados getting some love.
I used to do this crap all the time simming the old six pack airliners but to be honest with you I kept it clean and simple with the corrections. Only really did wind/decel corrections. Weight and qnh for me were overkill when already running at high mental workload. Worked out ok. Could barely add 2+2 together when on blocks
The good thing with weight and QNH is, you figure those out once and then never again as they don't change in a meaningful way during the flight. That makes it easier!
Sorry, my armchair-virtual-atpl-license mandates the use of VNAV :D But I did manage without in the time FBW didn't have it with the 3xFL rule. But thank you for the explanation, very interesting! :)
This was a very good video, very detailed. One where you want to take your own notes on for sure.
I noticed some arrivals (like in Chicago) don't always have altitude restrictions so if you are using VNAV on the arrival you will be mismanaging the descent. Look at some of the arrivals from the east to 10C as an example.
Thank you very much! What do you mean with "some arrivals (like in Chicago) don't always have altitude restrictions so if you are using VNAV on the arrival you will be mismanaging the descent"? Why would you mismanage the descend if there are no altitude restrictions? I'd say quite the opposite, VNAV would calculate the perfect path.
This was the VEECK5 arrival (from KSDF)
I should have put a alt restriction at JORJO so vnav could calc sooner/closer
Instead I think it used GIBNS
Thank you so much for your continuous efforts to bring the do's and don'ts of this bird to the community ❤️. I have to admit that I always hesitated to purchase a PMDG product as I was thinking to not be at a level to master it, even though I know the Fenix by heart as I've been always an Airbus guy in flightsim. Now for Christmas I decided to give the 700 a try mainly because I did miss a decent A319 in MSFS. What should I say after a couple of days I also bought the 800 and finally the 600. I do simply love these birds and did not have any issues to get used to them. This is because of your brilliant videos. A big thank you for that. Now really my FS hangar has the right plane for each occasion from both main manufacturers and PMDG another happy customer 😀 .
Thank you so much for your kind words Andreas, I'm really happy to hear how well my videos have helped you! I'm sure you'll love the 737s even more the more you get to fly them!
Currently doing my line training in 737 and descent management seems to be the most difficult part mostly because every captain has his own way. Some prefer vnav, others level change etc. All correct but all different and somehow that confuses me.
yeah, that was a hard part for me as well. If I'd be in that position again I'd just go into the FCOM or OM-A and see what your airline wants you to use. If your airline says VNAV, just use VNAV. If they prefer other modes, do those.
As long as you can give reason for why you're doing things as you're doing them you should be good. Having a book to point to is always something good! Which of course does not mean that you shouldn't take your captains advise, they will be able to provide you with a lot of insights on matters you still need to gain experince on.
Rarely do I use VNAV. I preferer to use formulars mainly to see my accuracy and timing arrivals, so satisfying to get it right over the computer. I love to see Emanuele do a video on triangulation without a computer or reference points. Maybe charts and a watch. The DC6 would be perfect?
This is good. The BAe 146 doesn't have vnav and calculating the descent was certainly an experience 😄. Hopefully I'll be able to transfer some of this knowledge to that plane
Most should probably be transferable.
The absolute limit is 210 to 3000AGL on glide path, lower the gear and deploy flaps at Tape speed
Fantastic video Emi. I have 2 questions if I may.
1) Does the rule for hectopascals convert directly when using inHg as pilots in the states do, or is there a different rule for that?
2) If the QNH is less than the standard 29.92 would I do the opposite and take NM off the track distance?
Apologies if this was explained and I just haven’t grasped it!
Can you please do a video when you show how to park the plane and then prepare it again for another flight (stop over). Cheers 😄
Basically you'd skip the safety inspection and go straight into the preflight procedures. While not a tutorial I did do a lot of turnarounds on my livestreams so far so those may be a good source to check.
this seems really overcomplicated, only descent rate, height and speed is needed, you can make some minor corrections for a headwind or tailwind and pressure difference but unless you're flying in a hurricane what will that really do, add a few miles? just start a bit early and you can always reduce descent rate if you need
yeah, say you're going to descend from FL280 to 5000, and the QNH is 30.08, the rule of thumb is about 9ft per hundredth inch (lets round to 10) so at 29.92 you are actually 160ft higher (kinda pointless but bigger pressure differences exist I guess), that means we have to lose 23160ft, so let's say we'll descend at 3000fpm, choose any descent rate you're comfortable with it doesn't matter, you would need to descend for 7 minutes to lose 22000ft and another 20 seconds to lose 1000ft (and another 3 seconds to lose the 160, totally pointless)
we have a ground speed readout here so we really don't need to correct for wind or anything, a knot being a nautical mile per hour means that at your GS of ~450 6 of those minutes are 45nm, the remaining minute is 7.5nm, and the 20 seconds 2.5nm (and the 3 seconds less than half a mile, again totally pointless), so 52.5nm total, just add a safety margin and adjust descent rate as required to make up the difference
and if you already have a descent rule of thumb like x miles per thousand feet or whatever you don't need any of this, just use that instead
repeat for any amount of legs your procedure requires
I don't know where your calculation comes from but it involves a lot of non-factors with weird rules of thumb that make no logical sense
That's the difference between professional flying and dentist flying.
For a dentist it might not matter if you constantly need to use thrust or the speed brake, but for an airline with loads of flights every day things add up and can ultimately make millions of difference for the airlines.
Do you ever notice the tail wagging in the PMDG starting at minute 5:10 happen in the real aircraft? I've never seen it wave back and forth so aggressively on any other aircraft. Does PMDG have this on their backlog of "to fix"?
Hi again captain :) I want to ask couple of questions and if u answer shortly I really appriciate( Im in Lifus B737 )
1-What is the difference between changing target speed 280 or using level change? also between vnav speed and level change? arent they almost the same?
2-I know you mentioned in the video but ı couldnt find again. When should we start slowing down if it is not straight in approach?(I mean followin full arrival)? 3- also in bad weather conditions when should we start extending flaps?
Hi Eray,
1) Changing the speed target in the FMS adjusts the VNAV profile for the new drag situation. Thus you get more accurate VNAV path indications than if you just used LVL CHG.
2) Same as for straight in approaches. Use the PROG page to determine the distance along your route.
3) No difference between good and bad weather conditions.
@@A330Driver you are amazing , thank you very much:)
If the qnh is below 1013 should i subtract 1 mile per one milibar
Emi.. I have a question about the reliability of the vnav desecent in the pmdg 737.. is it always spot on or do you sometimes hafta intervene yourself? For instance on some approaches from cruise thru a star it works just fine. But other times it tends to slow its descent leaving me with having to manually descend. I learned long ago how to make my own descent without having the luxury of a vnav system and star approaches. Is this a msfs thing or is the vnav like that in the real 737 also? Also.. when there is a step descent in the flight plan .. what should I set the mcp altitude before initial descent during cruise?
If you stay on top of it, it works very well. Of course the basic computer principle of "shit in, shit out" does apply, so if you deviate from your path be proactive and do something about it. Get too high? Increase speed or use speed brake.
For Cruise Descends just set the new altitude on the MCP and press ALT INTV. If you're more than 40NM from your T/D the plane will enter cruise descend, if you're within 40NM it'll go into early descend.
I would love to know how you manage transition at German airports (and some Italian ones). So for example you're flying into EDDM and approaching ROKIL. Would you know if to expect the transition or maybe get a shortcut so you can reprogram the FMC early? What if you follow the transition but then get told to go direct to line up for the approach and you're too high. Do ATC tell you when to descend as I don't use ATC and just VNAV/Managed Descent?
You'd know that you'll be cleared for the transition. I'd always plan my vertical profile to expect a shortcut, normally turning base when abeam the FAP.
Once you get onto the approach frequency you'll have to listen out to the other traffic to see what kind of shortcuts they get and to make out how busy it is, that'll usually give you an idea what to expect. If you are unsure just ask ATC for the trackmiles.
@@A330Driver Ok, and if you don't get that shortcut for whatever reason (maybe spacing behind an A380) then you just level off or reduce descent rate?
Quick question- Using Fenix Airbus but I assume the same rules apply. I did calculations and ended up 10 nm further out starting descent than TOD. Is that an acceptable distance with the rough calculations or should they be nearly identical?
I personally doubt the descend performance of the Fenix is accurate, thus I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up off the planned point.
@@A330Driver Honestly yeah it always seems to descend a little later than it needs to, so that would make sense.
How do these corrections work for larger aircraft (example the 747-200)? I'm assuming they are probably not applicable?
The reference weight of 60t is obviously not applicable, but there will be a similar reference weight for every aircraft type. Which one that is however, is something I can not tell you.
The rest of the rules will more or less apply, for sure the 3/1 rule for determining the general distance from T/D to Touchdown and the wind corrections as well. Most aircraft also slow down somewhat similar to the 737, meaning approx 1NM per 10kt.
@@A330Driver Thanks for clarifying!
Does that 'banana' green arch estimate of reaching target altitude include weight and wind?
Yes, if you target altitude on autopilot panel this green banana shows you where you’ll maintain your targeted altitude. However I think it calculates it based on your current wind, speed of climbing/descending etc. and not future wind on different flight levels unless you type them in DES > Forecast page
But I’m not 100% sure about the second fact
@@catte22 yes I believe so since it is ever moving slightly.
It uses current V/S and GS, so whatever you currently experience is taken into account.
1:49 I'm American, that's too much math.
hahaha, if you want it simple just activate the Meters overlay, that's roughly 3x your cruise altitude as well ;-)
737Driver yo should try this in the Aerosoft CRJ. That would be the Perfect Plane for this.....I just bought it and cant stop flying it its Amazing! I think its still on sale 550/700 $35
The CRJs were really nice when they first came out, but by now I prefer the more complex aircraft released in the meantime. Indeed, descent management was really interesting in them!