Dump & Run Motorcycle Fork Oil Change: NonAdjustable Damping Rod Telescopic & Upside down Forks
Vložit
- čas přidán 15. 12. 2019
- DaveMossTuning.com
Most nonadjustable forks are damping rod forks. 9 times out of 10, stock fork oil in nonadjustable forks is too thin off the showroom floor requiring thicker oil immediately. Regardless, fork oil wears out just like engine oil. Changing it every 5000 miles (8000 km) is excellent, every 8000 (13,000 km) is good, every 10,000 (16,000 km) is okay, and by 12,000 (20,000 km) it's become more like fork water than fork oil.
Cartridge style dump & run fork oil change
davemosstuning.com/dump-run-f... - Sport
The "fasten your seatbelts" comment got me :P
I did a dump and run and followed the last video to a T and now my R6 rides over bumps so much nicer and nowhere near as harsh. Thanks Dave!
Brilliant stuff - thanks for taking the time to change the fork oil by leveraging the video. Amazing how much of a difference it can make!
Even if the suspension components aren’t on my bikes, Im learning a ton about proper operation, setup, and maintenance of suspension. Thanks!
Thank you for getting the knowledge you can use for the rest of your motorcycling life. I am grateful to be a trusted source for you. Remember to pay ot forward via sharing your experience from changes made and regular servicing.
Your content is so good that I didn't even skip through the oil running out of the fork incase I missed something you said during it
Thank you very much for the kind words. Glad you enjoyed and can leverage the content.
Waiting for my Maxima 20wt. for my Yamaha FZ6R to arrive Friday. Thank you Dave for these videos and your help. Without witch, I would have never attempted this service. Super squishy forks and after 31,000 miles on my OE oil I'm way past due. I never thought about changing fork oil until I stumbled across one of your videos. Glad I did. Thanks again. I'll update in a few days.
Turned out great! Old oil was extremely silver, bike doesn't dive anymore and ironically it shifts better than it ever did. Didnt expect that to change from changing fork oil. Just what the fz6r needed.
Thank you Mr. Moss fro your quick responce. Very helpful.
That is a great demonstration ! Thank you Dave. Will do it on my Yamaha r15 soon.
You make it look so easy. I replaced the fork seals on exactly the same forks and it was a pain in the ass the first time (mainly because I couldn't get the ABS sensor out).
There is tons of forums for information to reference on how much fluid required.
The simplicity of dumping oil and refilling is mostly overlooked, for the benefits over cost it's definatly worth doing at home.
Outstanding! Thank you, Dave!
Dave, fabulous teachings... Thank you.
Thank you for watching to invest in yourself and your motorcycle!
Fasten your seatbelts....Events occur in real time...while waiting for the oilflow to change from stream to drip....that made my day, very funny. Thank you DMT.
A very professional set of experiences and practice from the field.Thank you.
I am verifying my knowledge and ideas.
Grease - I use permanent grease (for brake callipers). It works.
Spacer - I modified according to logical thinking. According to your practice as it was found.
Oil - when the bike jumps up after compression, it gets a higher W ;-)
Thank you very much!
Thank you very much for this great Guide!
Dave, Terima kasih ilmu yang diberikan.. 👍
Really helpful, thanks guys!
Great video, thanks.
Thanks I am watching your vedios for learning
Love your videos, to the point and very informative, wish I was close enough to take my bike to you :)
Thank you! IU can help you while you are in your own garage. This is Remote Tuning, developed during Covid to help riders all over the world. If you are interested, email me dave@davemosstuning.com
Awesome post...thanks.
Thank you very profesional way to work
Nice one Dave,☝️☘
Very simple, thank you!
Thank you for watching and taking the time time to post!
Nice job...tanks...👍👏👏👏
Thanks for your effort with these videos, I love the servicing videos, sometimes here in Australia it becomes very expensive as a consumer, so to do the work for self is cheaper and more rewarding. Can fully electronic forks be serviced? From like a Panigale 1299S? BMW S1000RR?
Phenomenal sir! I thought "conjurer" when the high temp grease vanished, then the "stickage" went away, wonderful
great help thanks
Good video
Dave Maxima makes a "zero drag" fork oil that is the best I have ever used. Just thought i would say since i saw it on your workbench.
Excellent and thank for sharing!
I’m glad for no music!
Hi Dave. I've changed my fork oil and I have installed my fork back in the triple clamp. Now I noticed that my fork is 2mm lower installed in my triple clamp. Does those 2mm have a big impact when cornering and should I reinstall them 2mm higher again or is it possible to leave them like they are?
I love the edits. haha
very good explanation,thank you !!! (but you turn the spring 180°) ;-))
Noticed that too.
It doesn't matter, as he said, it's the same both ends and the spacing throughout on this one.
Hi Dave, After changing the fork seals on my run around FZ6 i noticed in the manual it gave two ways of measuring fork oil quantity either in CC's or by measuring from top of fork tube down to oil level, I did this using a steel rule and adding 10mm to the workshop manual measurement until i got a 10mm reading on my measure. I presume whichever way comes to the same result.
Can i ask which of the two you prefer?
I suppose it's an alternative way to get the correct amount of fork oil if you have no measuring jug :)
Loving your videos by the way....Very informative.
Former dealer tech weighing in... Either method works. Measuring from the top of the tube is especially helpful if you've performed a quick change (like this video) because you account for the small amount of oil still in the fork leg. I usually add about 3/4 of the recommended oil capacity from the shop manual, exercise the fork, start measuring from the top of the tube, adding a little oil at a time (easy to add, messy to subtract). I usually bend a piece of wire so it will hang over the end of the tube by itself and trim the other end to the desired length within the tube so you have 1 hand free to hold the fork, and the other free to pour oil in/grab a flashlight to verify your wire/oil level.
Dave, I am wanting to change the springs on my cruiser. I will be replacing the standard spring, like in this video, to a progressive spring. There is debate on the proper way to install the spring between the manufacturer, tighter coil down, vs forums with the tighter coil up. Which would you recommend? Debate on the oil as well. 20w from the manuf and 10w from the forums. Thanks in advance.
Hi Jon. Original equipment always has the close together coils facing down. Oil weight is a function of spring strength and tire wear can show if you picked the right oil. If you are willing to experiment, fork oil is cheap. I would start at 15w and after 500 mils check tire wear. czcams.com/video/dVYSfIUnzBk/video.html
Dave a dumb question I guess. But the most common thing I read on groups. Increasing oil height will cause fork seals to burst/leak.
How much more oil is too much over stock height?
I am aware that increase oil height helps on compression tuning due to the air spring.
Thanks
There is no dumb question ever with me - it is the question that is not asked that creates problems. When you read those statements, does the writer list the fork oil volume they tested in various heights and the methods used to burst open seals? Would you ask for that information? If there is no supporting data, are those statements nothing more than hearsay/conjecture & general flame throwing? Factory oil levels are generally slightly low with damping rod forks. You can add 50cc in each leg and not hydrolock the forks. That will enhance the air spring effect. Unless you are experiencing severe dive (oil too thin) or bottoming (oil to low in volume), then there's no reason to change oil viscosity/height. Not so with sportbikes and cartridge forks as the oil volume is close to maximum due to significantly increased capabilities and presumed track use.
Beauty
Mr Moss,
For non adjustable forks. On the spring spacer, can one change the size of the spacer to set a better preload sag and balance the front and rear ?
Yes, you can absolutely do that. It is cheaper to use washers initially prior to manufacturing a spacer unless of course you have access to the materials and tools to do the job.
Hi Dave, could you use red rubber grease instead of high temperature bearing grease? Thanks.
Yes, as this is a specific rubber product. Check dropping point for each product.
Hi dave I did a spring and oil change on my 2018 MT07 and all went well however now the forks are back on the bike when I bounce the front I can hear a scraping noise from both forks in both directions up and down. Like metal on metal. Definitely correct springs and all done as per your video. Do you know what it might be as I’m worried, the bike rides fine though.
something is definitely wrong
why did you go up on the fork oil, doesn't temperature make a difference, bit cooler here Dave in the peak district in the UK than Bakersfield CA
Hi Dave,
Any tips on how to remove the socket bolt that holds the fork damper assembly (on a 2004 CBR 600 F4i) that won't come off and keeps spinning with the all assembly?
I've tried all the manual method and nothing..
Your black magic is highly appreciated.
Thanks!
Hi Pedro. Can I get a picture of what you are talking about so we are both "looking" at the same thing? Please email me: dave@davemosstuning.com
Hey Dave, any comments about variable viscosity between brands with the same Weight oil, ie iso numbers.
Never tested the oil and would want to see the cSt ranges and VI #'s for application.
Since the fork spring is fully extended, how are you able to get the cap back on without using a spring compressor? There should be 8-10mm of spring to compress?
On a damping rod fork with a stock preload spacer (or shorter) the spring is easy to compress and thread onto the fork cap. The engineers thought of this.
do you have a video cutting the spacer on the fz-mt07 as you suggested in another video
In the other video where we video the entire process, the spacers were pre-cut so I do not have a video of how to cut them. Should have thought of that at the time.
So Dave, do you see the 'dump and run' as the lazy way with a full strip being the ideal or is it like an interim service to be done say in between full strip downs?
It is an interim step that limits the amount of metal debris in the forks. If done every 3,000 miles or less, the strip clean will show a dramatically reduced amount of metal.
@@CatalystReactionSBW Thanks, so normal full strip still at 6-10K miles then.
@@raydavison2972 full strip every 10k, as many dump and runs as you want in between. Example - every 10 track days for damping rod forks.
@@darekm6859 race application is 20-30 hours. Track days is every 3,000 miles. Normal riding on the road 8,000 miles.
Hi dave. I saw that you replace the 10w red fork oil (from factory) with the clear 15w maxima oil. But there's still a bit of red oil in the fork. Is this ok to mix them with the 15w maxima fork oil like you did in the video? Sorry I'm a bit confused.
Great question. You get 99% of the oil out if you drain it for 10 minutes. With such a small volume of red oil left, there is no negative impact to be concerned about.
I noticed that you used the Green label Maxima. I see many others doing likewise. I see that Maxima makes a Blue label "racing fluid" is there a difference that pushes you toward the Green label offering?
Thanks for your question. Durability and longevity. Those are the principle two reasons. For race specific applications and riders goign for a Championship or #1 plate, then i would suggest blue label.
Dave is there any way of flushing a fork or is there any need . I'm thinking of an older bike with no idea of previous service history of the forks
Absolutely. A bottle brush and Kerosene, WD40 or flushing oil then "wash" with parts cleaner. In your scenario, a full strip clean would be in order if there is no service history at all. Much better to start fresh and know where you are.
@@CatalystReactionSBW I was thinking I'm new to motorcycles but have been working on cars for years and was unsure thanks for the great advice and love the videos also can I ask why the lack of power tools from any of your videos and most other motorcycle mechanics seem to primarily use handtools and from my time working on cars I use power tools as much as possible sorry for the devation off topic but just wondering
@@davidsstfarrelltighe stripping is fine with power tools especially those with 40ft lbs or more torque. Assembly is all hand. Motorcycle bolts as you may have seen are generally fine thread and the depth of the thread surface peak to base is not very deep at all.
My forks were seeping a bit of oil but now has stopped (not sure if all fluid is gone?)........ and now it doesn't seem to compress anymore as far as putting my body weight onto the front end. What could that be?
Trapped dirt in the grease groove provides an air gap,s o the oil find s a way through. Once that slides into the fork, the oil sel seals again. It can also be time where the spring on the seal gets lazy until you exercise it.
DID YOU FILL fiftheen pouns FOR each bar suspensión MY FRIEND.good video AND YOUR technical WAY to explain l HAVE a klr 2001 AND l want to change THE OIL rear suspensión HOW MANY OIL l HAVE to FILL THANKS A LOT I SEE YOU FROM PARRAS DE LA FUENTE COAHUILA MÉXICO
Thanks for your kind words! 400-420ml if the fork is completely dry and use 10w fork oil.
THANKS A LOT HAVE A NICE NIGTH
Here in India, it is almost proving impossible to get KYB G10 oil for my Kayaba forks. Spec says CST @40°C is 37.2.
I can however, get Liqui Moly 10W which has CST @40°C of 28.5. I'm flabbergasted by the variation.
Motul medium has a CST of 35.9 @ 40°C, but all I can find in the market is 20W, CST being 81.1.
I'm lost, don't know what to do. Forks have become stiffer and are begging for fluid change. Not much luck online either (risk of fake/duplicate oil from unknown sellers).
Will the Liqui Moly 10W be okay choice? I don't want to compensate for less viscosity by adding extra fluid and risking a bust oil seal.
Please guide.
What did you end up doing?
this would get million views if u do it with crf250l/300l, I need these details for my bike too.
I will see if that bike is local to me and someone needs the work done. If so, we will video the service.
Why refilling with the same quantity, rather than setting it as per owner's manual? What if the oil was incorrectly set before? By using the same quantity I would just reiterate the same error. Thanks for your videos, by the way. Always informative.
I agree with what you are saying . Im sure he said that the bike had only done 700miles. If that is the case this is possibly the first oil change for the forks.I would assume the oil level should be correct from factory.
If you had the bike from day 1 and always used this method it should work perfect. Or if you buy a used bike the first time you do a oil change do the measurement with a rule to get the correct amount of oil then for future oil changes use the same volume of oil you took out put back in.
But then is the information in the manual correct or is a guide to get a good base point?
Does more oil or less oil in a controlled and recorded increment produce stiffer/ softer characteristics.
Also as Dave spoke about in the video what Weight oil do you use? The one recommended by the manual the one recommended by the manufacturer or the one that gives you back the control of the suspension?
By using the same volume...
what are the characteristics of the suspension before the oil change? Is there a reason to suspect that the oil level/ volume is incorrect
ie the fork seal has failed and oil has been lost? the fork is solid and upon inspection it is filled to the brim?
Just some things to think about
@@harrybrown4815 Good points made.
Great point. I will always exercise the fork to see how it behaves before it is put back on the bike. I will then make the call on more oil or less, based on what I feel. I may even change viscosity if I feel rebound is too fast or slow. You can absolutely start from the OEM oil level and viscosity/brand as per manual and then exercise the fork to see how it behaves, either by hand or on the bike. Many, many ways to do something, so what makes the most sense to you based on the way that you think?
@@CatalystReactionSBW I think that's the key answer: if you know what you're doing, then you don't really care where you start from, as you have a clear idea of where you want the suspension to be. If all you're capable of is to service the suspension so it's like it was new from the factory (for better or worse), then of course you need the OEM levels/specs.
You're clearly in the first category, I'm clearly in the second one. Oh well...
Dave, I have an FZ07 which I need to change the fork oil to 15W (I'm 155lb). Rather than strip the forks out, can I not simply pump the old out and replace ? I have a fully equipped shop. Thanks
Those forks don't have drains, so you have to pull them off the bike to flip them over to drain them, but you don't have to disassemble them completely.
You have to have the springs and spacers out to measure the oil level. Unless you fill by volume.
I'd be cautious with 15w. I tried 12w and it was harsh. 15w would probably be brutal!
Btw, we only choose spring rates for our bikes based on rider weight. Oil viscosity is not dependant on rider weight.
@@shinyribs2178 Thanks so much for this factual explicit reply. I can take the forks out, but I was hoping to remove the springs and spacers, drop a hose down each one and pump them out, which is way quicker. As to weight. Dave Moss' advice was to use 15 W (I'm 150 lbs). I have looked on line and am not even sure I can get anything between 10 & 15. If you could point me in the right direction for a supplier, I'd be grateful . Dave also recommends reducing the spacer by 10mm.
Thanks again
@@MrRunner If you've got a way to pump the fluid out there's no reason it won't work. Whatever it takes to get it out! The bad sludge that usually accumulates at the bottom likely won't be drawn out, but you can splash some mineral spirits in there ( 100% won't harm your seals, just a good, low odor solvent you can buy in gallon containers for cheap) to help loosen it up and draw it out with your pump. Mineral spirits won't harm any finishes on your bike, but it's be cautious with the LCD display just in case.
The stock forks often have the steel spacers riding directly against the aluminum fork caps. Those spacers are very thin walled and chew up the fork caps, which produces tiny little aluminum slivers. It's good to get that out to prevent undue bushing wear. You can reorient the factory parts by using the washer that's between the spacer and the spring and relocating that washer between the fork cap and the spacer. It will stop the chewing. You don't need a washer between the spring and the spacer tube. Or, replace the spacer with heavy wall PVC tubing, which is referred to as "schedule 80" tubing. Schedule 40 is thin walled and won't be strong enough.
I tried heavier oil just to see what the results would be. I wasn't impressed. They come stock with ATF in them, which roughly equates to 7w. I tried a couple different viscosities. Nothing improved, the ride just became progressively harsher and the oil thickness went up. I've never in my life heard of a suspension tuner recommending different weight oils for different weight riders, so I'll respectfully decline to comment on that advice as I'm in Dave's comment section.
Good luck! And ride safe ✌️
Hi. Thanks for the video. I have a 2017 DR650 that comes from the factory with 10W fork oil. When cruising around 55 mph and I apply the front brake a little firmly it nose dives and scares the hell out of me. How much stiffer can I expect the fork to be if I change to 15W oil? What would 20W do? Do I need to install a stiffer spring ???????
(Race Tech brand: Recommended Front Spring Rate:closest available is 0.60 kg.mm, 129$/pair.
Stock Front Spring Rate is 0 )
You do not list your weight without gear, how much off road/on road %ages are and last fork oil service. 15w will be fine for most on/off road use. 20w will be for street use with very little off road. Same volume as the manual calls for.
@@CatalystReactionSBW Unfortunately all the land around here is closed. No trespassing. close to 100% of the time I'll be riding rural roads. Not by choice . I'll occasionally have to trailer the bike 60 miles to ride off road. I weigh 200 lb
@@yoyohooyo at your weight and use 20w will work and 50cc less than stock volume to start.
Can you change the fork oil on a damping rod fork with out taking the forks off of the bike?
Obviously there will be clean up issues.
Yes via Vacuum pump is the easiest. The other option is removing the bolt at the base of the forks holding the damping rod in place.
So just crank the Allen screw loose at the bottom without fully removing it or would I have to fully remove it to get the fork to drain? I ask because on the forks I have worked on in the past I had to hard time getting the Allen screw to rethread into the fork and I wanted to avoid that issue if possible.
Dave I think I got it now Thank You Dave
Hi Dave. For forks that haven't seen an oil change since they left the dealership and have ridden 30.000 kms of dirt roads, can one clean out the forks with kerosene and leave them to dry before adding fresh oil? I image there will be quite some crud in there.
Absolutely. Give it a good 24 hours to dry and if possible, blow out with compressed air for insurance. Also inspect the bushings for missing teflon and make sure you polish the chrome tubes.
@@CatalystReactionSBW Thanks, will do. With what do you polish the chrome? Haven't heard of that before. Greetings from Paraguay!
@@Roscoe2671995 800 grit sandpaper if you have chrome. If it is not chrome, you only use polish compounds.
How do you dispose of the used kerosene after flushing out the fork?
@@Thirsty_Foxlight a match!😂
Could you flush some new oil through there to get the residuals more flushed out?
Yes and kerosene would be better if you can find some.
@@CatalystReactionSBW I flushed both forks out three times with fresh oil. I will remember the kerosene trick for next time. Your videos are very helpful for us simpletons. Thanks for posting them.
Like the video is very helpful but what is the difference between fork fluid and fork oil
There is no difference, both terms are interchanged. For those who wish to be accurate, fork oil is the correct term as that is the fluid used in the forks.
So the Maxima blue bottle fork fluid is the same as the green bottle fork oil
@@maxbadrak4628 Blue is the race oil, less longevity but more flow when hot.
Nothing will happen if there is 2mm more oil in one fork than in the other? because I leaked a little during assembly
If you had a leak during assembly, then the leak must be cured. If so, 2mm will not make a difference. 10mm will.
I'm considering doing this on my new 2021 Z650 - she's in break-in right now (a whopping 168 miles on it) - better to remove the forks completely or can this all be done while on the motorcycle?
It is possible with a vacuum pump to suck most of the oil out when you have telescopic forks. You will need to remove the spring and spacer and very carefully measure what you removed prior to fresh oil going in.
@@CatalystReactionSBW - definitely going to sign up for one of your remote tuning sessions - I've spent countless hours watching your videos, and they've been immensely helpful since getting back in the saddle.
Thank you for your response!
@@xelnjare3945 I look forward to working with you!
I thought just because one brand is 10w, doesn't guarantee another brand that's 15w will be heavier ? I've just ordered fresh oil for my fjr1300es based on the centistroke and vi numbers, but it's still only 5w.
Correct. VI and cSt are huge data points for fork oil as it is not standardized. Most viewers want to know what to buy, not what to study. Thank you for going the extra mile and learning more in depth information to make a more informed choice. Next is to research what oils have long chain vs short chain molecules.
@@CatalystReactionSBW I might give that a miss if it's alright with you 😂
Lol editor Dave
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. Thank you. Props to Mr. Moss tho, he's a good sport.
Is it bad if the fork has different oil in each tube will that effect the performance of the bike?
If the oils are chosen via testing, no.
@@CatalystReactionSBW i really have no clue, i just bought an fz6n and i was curious so i thought i change the fork oil and i found out that the left was red color and the right was green i am going to put a 5w elf synthetic and see from there thank you so much for your videos they helped me so much!
@@dimos5422 Looks like only one leg had oil changed and unfortunately that is not unusual. Depending on your weight, 10w might be better.
What happens if you don’t “bleed” the fork or massage the air out?? I forgot to do that with one of my forks😳
There will slightly less oil volume in that leg is all. If you put the correct amount in, the fork will self bleed within an hour or so if you ride the bike.
@@CatalystReactionSBW phew. Ok cool. I thought that was the case if you had to measure it from the top of fork or something. Thanks for the response and video
Is that the spacer I need to shorten 10mm for an 2017 FZ-07? Thanks
Yes, correct.
@@CatalystReactionSBW would increasing the fork oil level by 20mm have the same effect, comparing to the 10mm off of the spacer?
👍🏻😀
Hi dave. I was doing the dumb and run and noticed that one of my fork has 510 ml of fork oil and the other has 475ml. Which in the manuel shop it indicates that it should be 450ml. I dont know what is the problem.
The fork was over filled the last time a service was done as it was not fully drained. Reset to the correct volume if you feel you have 99% of the oil out prior to refill.
@CatalystReactionSBW I poured 450ml and It's not enough to match the height indicated in the manuel.
@@mahanghorbani523 Then just match the manual
@CatalystReactionSBW the manuel says 450ml before disassembly. Should I go for the height or for the quantity in the manuel? I also got red 10w oil and was wondering if it's ok to pour 15w maxima fork oil without disassembly. Thanks a lot in advance
@@mahanghorbani523 I always use oil height and for oil color, that is not a problem.
Hi Dave,,I have a 2018 HD Roadster with 43 mm inverted non adjustable front forks, on the stiff side.. I weigh 90 kg or 200 lbs ..I compensated by running 33 psi cold front,, would going to 5 W make it a tad softer pls.? Thank you..Edited,,Found the other Video Dave just have to Inquire what the Factory oil was. Thanks Again.
Hi Paul - it all depends how much travel you are using? Have you placed a zip tie on the right fork leg to check? Sometimes too stiff = too soft and travel can verify that. Note that the rear suspension being too soft/stiff can have exactly the same effect on the front eg rear too soft so the front barely moves. Getting a more complete bigger picture will result in $$ being spent correctly. davemosstuning.com/?s=fork+travel
is that a moto guzzi v7 fork? i swear it looks like one
Yes, it is :) Good eye!!!!!
It’s recommended by many guzzi guys to go up to the 15w that you put in. What’s your input on this? I’ll be doing stiffer springs as well as i am on the heavier side
@@louisvaldivia9260 15w and a we used .85 linear springs for the owner who was 200lbs.
@@CatalystReactionSBW Big thanks to you! Now i know how to disassemble my forks haha
Would it be acceptable to remove the old oil using a vacuum pump thus leaving the fork insitu on the bike?
For damping rod forks, yes that would get most of the oil out.
When you were exercising the fork….🙁😕😮😣😖😵💫
Please, no music!
Stop talking cause your contradicting your own standards