The Issue With Character Design & Racial Ambiguity
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Did you know that Luz Noceda is Black? 👀
As someone who has been a general animated media fan for their entire life, I have noticed a pattern when it comes to designing BIPOC characters as unnecessarily ambiguious. Yes, all people come with different skin shades, facial features, and hair textures--but when your goal as a creator is to spread positive representation to your viewers, your characters' designs should actually LOOK LIKE those targeted viewers. So, when shows are repeatedly dropping the ball, even in recent years... It's time to talk about it.
I promise I'll get my mic filters tightened down lol. Cheers to my first video! 🥂
[00:00] INTRO
[06:16] MARCELINE THE VAMPIRE QUEEN
[12:14] QUICK BREAK
[12:59] LUZ NOCEDA
[18:46] AANG & SOKKA (Legend of Korra)
[25:31] SOLUTIONS & CONCLUSION
🌐 Art Tiktok & Instagram: nanigo_art._
🎵 Music sourced from: Uppbeat
~~~
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PLZ READ B4 COMMENTING:
I've been getting a lot of comments talking about how weird and unimportant it is for Americans to focus on race, "why are you guys so worried about race. We dont care about it over here in x country." The answer: Because it is against our will.
The reason why BIPOC people are are so concerned about race is because this country has historically centered it against our will. Specifically for Black Americans, our ancestors were stolen and brought over here, and then for generations every way we were treated and perceived was strictly because of our race in comparison to whiteness. It still happens here, but more hidden within systemics and legislation. In comparison to other countrries where the lighter/white character is often the token or villain, it's often the complete opposite here. So, with Black features like dark skin, kinky hair, and a bigger nose and lips being demonized or outright fetishized, it's not at all outlandish or "too much" for us to want to see those kinds of features presented in a positive and expressive light given the context. And don't act like antiblackness, stereotypes, and colorism exist ALL OVER the world.
If you couldn't read the title of the video clip I showed in Luz's section, it reads "Dominican woman says her people don't identify as Black in the US to avoid the treatment we receive." Why do you think that is??? Hitler and the N*zi regime quite literally studied from America's systemic discrimination tactics. Look it up if you dont believe me.
The historical amount negative representation of non-white people in this country (both in media and real life) still overwhelms the historical positive representation in this country in terms of our timeliness. We want that to change and are going to be vocal about it.
EDIT: 20K VIEWS!?!!!!! Y'all are bonkers ❤❤❤❤
Cheers to posting my first video!~ I had a blast making this, and I'm surprised at how quickly I did (thank god for holiday breaks lol). I already have tons ideas for future videos, but drop any that you have in mind in the comments!
Hope ya'll enjoy
Dude I can’t wait to see you be the next big thing! (Fr what a great first vid)
@@Anna-xh6fkI'm coming for Markiplier's neck!! 😎
Great video! The people always complaining about discussions of representation tend to be those that don’t yearn for better and equal representation in media, unfortunately you’ll probably see more but know that there’ll be even more of us here supporting and enjoying your content!
Sorry I have several problems with your video.
1) Marcelean - You know I understand you claims. but I guess everyone here can understand that she is white because she is Vampire and if she wasn't vampire she would be black. And to the thing with straight hair. If I was immortal demon I would do everything to change my hair every few centuries. And at the same video you claim that there are black people with straight hair so your claims didn't have that weight.
2) Luiz. You literaly said that there are afro-lation that looks like her. That kinda prove that she looks just fine?
That's all my problem with video. Good luck with next one.
I totally see your point and your frustration to these types of comments. As a Latine (Mexican specifically) I can tell you that there is little to no conversations about racism and representation in media due to how we view race and ethnicity as something that doesn't really matter when in fact actually pretty much does.
I can't really give you an explanation on how we- despite being a masively diverse community, have such a loose grip on these concepts and how important they are. In the hispanic/latino communities many awful things are normalized such as casual racism or fatphobia, things that are very clearly the consequences of colonialism and white supremacy imposed by Spain and Portugal, and yet people still won't admit we have stuff like racism and colorism and have been whitewashed to the point where a big chunk of the population (at least in Mexico) has lost its native roots and many people don't even know if they're native or something else.
But despite this, I really want you to know that there are still people and content creators who look past these superficial views and decide to educate themselves and others on the subject, especially POC creators that want to educate people and spread awareness on racism and colorism. They're just not as seen or heard as- w h i t e creators or creators that just don't focus on this content.
My point is, while being ignorant on racial themes in media and our society is pretty much the norm, there are still many people who know this is bad and try to make a change by bringing awareness. Just know that for every person that flaunts that we're not as "obsessed with race" as Americans are, there are three other people that will disagree with that claim knowing that's a harmful way to view our society. Don't get too worked up on these people because they don't even really care if the character is well-written or not (because if that were the case, they wouldn't be whining about blackwashing characters in the first place), they just live in a fantasy filled with ignorant bliss and refuse to take accountability for their racist actions.
I'm still really happy you did give them a well deserved response to this question. Because even *if* it was a USA thing, then it's just a USA thing and that's it, it's about the cultural and historical context of that specific country just like you explained.
The discussion around Kipo doesn't rub me right. All the main characters in that show are black pretty much. And theres no ambiguity in any of the character designs. Kipo is mixed korean and black and she resembles her mom, besides the fact shes a pink mutant. Sometimes that happens with mixed-race kids. That show is WONDERFUL for representation. Look at Wolf Girl. Very dark skin, very natural hair, there is nothing ambiguous about her. And shes one of the best characters in the show! To call those animators cowardly is just not fair, because its clear they werent at all shying away from representation with that show. They are also showing the fact that sometimes mixed race kids resemble one parent over the other, genetics are just weird that way.
so true
Yeah that kipo pull was a hell of a strawman.
exactly.
I swear to God, people just can't be multiracial anymore.
@@Urmumlel7025 it seems like it. Like that show did a great job with representation for both black kids AND mixed race kids. And that's awesome!
There are no white or mixed characters in Avatar. There are plenty of Tibetans with light brown eyes and the same features of Aang. I'm Asian and I think it's weird how people think Asian people all have to have squinty eyes or something. People not being able to see them as nonwhite is people thinking that the "default" is white. I'm Asian and my mom has a "white" person nose, and double eyelids despite being 100% Asian. The team who designed these characters might have had better nose diversity, but I don't think they look white. Maybe because I'm not white and have seen many different kinds of Asian people actually living in Asia. There are plenty of real ethnic minorities and Aang is supposed to be from one of the analogous ethnic minorities.
Truth, getting real tired of non Asians of White and Black communities constantly judging and dictating on how we should look and how we should be represented. The hypocrisy and ignorance is amazing. The worst is when all these people start dictating how Asians should depict Asians in Asian media. Like how this and that are problematic in Japanese games and Anime. Just saw a video where a black woman looked at the game Stellar Blade and said how the Korean model which the MC was scanned from didn't look Asian and she was white washed? The hell?😂
Personally I never seen the avatar characters as asian because they are cartoon characters that doesn’t really look like any race.
there are also no non-mixed asians with blue eyes. the reason aang is "ambiguously white" is the same reason all anime characters are "ambiguously white". "mukukoseki" also known as "statelessness". it's deliberate as a style.
i've never seen the characters as white - i'm southeast asian and they all look like the asian people around me. Probably why i loved it sm as a kid. Even the background characters were just crowds I see on the rail transit.
People automatically think that light skin=white, and they need some sort of blatant racial signifier like squinty eyes or yellow skin to even consider characters Asian. Most animated characters have flat faces, smooth brow bones, and low nose bridges, all of which are common Asian features and uncommon in white people, yet people still think they’re white simply based on the fact they don’t fit into their predetermined stereotype.
The thing with mixed kids is they can rage from "I look almost 100 % like one of my parent and nothing like the other parent" to "I am obviouly a mixed of both" to "I look nothing like both my parents, I look like my gramma" 😅
This made me chuckle lol but you are completely right!
Oh, definitely. I'm mixed and somehow came exactly in the middle of both my parents. I have been mistaken for full black, full white, Hispanic, Pakistani, and my brother's been mistaken for Filipino.
I’m white with a little bit of native and for whatever reason I came out looking most like my (a little bit more) native dad. I got my moms pale skin and my dads native and Eastern European features and really look nothing like my mom. I’m pretty racially ambiguous having different ethnicities claim me or ask if I was apart of their culture. It’s kinda funny. But regardless I do love seeing the wide range of mixed kids and seeing representation that fits them and me (since my face doesn’t resemble the “typical white beauty”)
As somebody who’s 1/4 Asian, I feel the third one.
im mixed!! my mother is much darker than i am, whereas im pale white just like my dad LOL. its frustrating how if you look like once race, people think you MUST adhere only to the cultures of said race/ethnicity. A lot of monoracial people follow the "one drop" rule (sometimes even subconsciously check urself) and it is genuinely fuckin scary... i also hate how mixed people are kinda used by studios and corporations to not give full rep to a particular race, but not understand the unique struggles there are to being mixed... i am within full understanding and support that there should be better and more frequent use of proper mixed race ppl of all shades and backgrounds, but i really dislike having my experience muddled down to a tool for media creators to use for diversity brownie points. i hope that makes sense.
I wish everyone knew the true spectrum of race and ethnicity. Mixed people are often used, misunderstood, or overlooked. ughh
I think it's fair to note that Marceline's VA has straight hair, and her design might be paying tribute to that. Marshal lee began as nothing more than a male version of her, so he closely resembles her. However, in Fionna and Cake, he became more of his own character, and since Donald Glover has more textured hair, so it makes sense that his hair was changed to reflect that. Luz was based on crew member Luz Batista, who is Afro-Latina, and has a similar hair texture to Luz's mom.
About Luz. If the creators don't say that that a character is black then they aren't. And, I say this as a black person. And, while I agree Afro-latin people should get representatives(more than it has rn) not all dark skin latin people are black. Also, [inhales] WHAT ABOUT INDIGENOUS AMERICANS WITH DARKER SKIN😤
Katara??
Luz is canonically black tho 💀💀
She’s based of the creator’s afro latina friend. However, my gripe is that the friend she based her off has very curly hair and always draws herself with curly hair. It’s so messed up to smooth out her hair then.
@@solarmoth4628 right? even if luz is straightening her hair at the beginning, and even if it's damaged when she stops straightening it, it shouldn't be *that* straight especially considering the person she's based off of.
@@fulanodetal3000also if we’re gonna spend two seasons with her where she’s straightening her hair…why not…show her doing that? Eda has straight hair, they could make a point out of how she doesn’t have anything in her house to straighten hair and write a wacky adventure around demon realm hair products
Im not afro Latina but I am black and very ambiguous. Most people unless I tell them don't know im not half white. It makes me feel a kind of way when I see people trying to invalidate Luz's character design for not "looking her race". Idk. My distain for when people redesign ambiguous characters to "look the race they should" comes from me never seeing a character that looks like me unless they are mixed. Idk I just find the redesigns of already poc characters weird.
I'm curious what your stance on Luz's design changes towards the end of the show then- the times changing and eventual timeskip, the flashbacks to a younger Luz and why her hair ended up so short, etc.
@@amesstarline5482 theirs nothing wrong with what the show dose cause it's cannon to the character.
I feel like if they specified she was mestiza and not « afro latina » it wouldn’t rly be a problem to anyone
The issue is thats the only design white creators are willing to give to brown characters, yes racially ambigus poc exist but when poc are only allowed to exist of they look racially ambigus & or lightskinned its an issue
There are even reboots that take existing Black charavters whom werent racially ambigus and make their skintone 10+ lighter while taking away their Black features biggest examples being clawdeen wolf in mh g3 , ashia from winx & orange blossom in strawberry shortcake 2009
@@Man-wolf- Might I remind about Strawberry Shortcake's newest incarnation? It seems there's some learning.
Latina of African descent here (not black, but somewhere in the middle), don’t like all the fuss about Luz’s design.
Feels like people are yet again, treating mixed race people as a monolith. We all have different faces and features, no one should be invalidated for not looking black enough.
It hurts even more for me because Luz looks a lot like my little sister. Seeing people “fixing” and invalidating Luz gives me a glimpse of how people would really see my sister.
But luz isnt mixed shes supposed to be monoracial, shes also straight out based on a real life person & said person does not have pin straight hair she has curly hair, its a lil messed up to create a character based off someone(esp someone whos Black) then proced to get rid of their curls in favour of straight hair
@@Man-wolf- All Afro-Caribean people are mixed race. Also Luz the animator was on the team of the show for the whole project. She was the one to ask for Luz the character to be Afro-Caribean in the first place, don't you think she would have a say if Luz wasn't Afro enough for her?
@@chanterelle483not all black latinos are mixed. brazilians, dominicans, etc are stereotyped as “mixed with everything” but there are clear examples of monoracial black latinos. it’s not impossible for them to have dark skin, textured hair, and clearly black features. “latino” holds an oddly racialized connotation that doesn’t make sense when representing non mixed individuals.
@@Man-wolf- When you make a character based off on someone, you don't have to give them their racial features, the important thing about it is making the character give you the vibes that person has. It's not much of a deal, I myself made hybrids based off on my friends when I was a child. You can get rid of whatever you want, if it reminds you to them then you've done it correctly.
@@chanterelle483not all afro-Caribbeans are mixed where on Earth did you get that fact from 💀💀
I’m Dominican. Luz is absolutely fantastic representation. Thank you for doing the research about the nuance of Dominican identity, but that’s not enough knowledge to group us under one look or identity. I am Afro-Indigenous-Latino with curly hair and darker skin than yours by a little bit. My siblings have straight hair, curly hair, and fro hair with various shades of brown skin. My mother is darker than all of us and has nearly straight wavy hair. We have family members who are very dark skinned with straight hair. I have a sister that looks just like Luz and another sister literally named Luz.
When I found out about Luz’ identity, I cried. She was the first representation we’ve ever gotten. Curly hair doesn’t equal black or Dominican. We’re not pressed about it, and while Dominicans have a contentious relationship with blackness that I myself had to struggle with before accepting and loving, saying she’s Dominican is enough. We don’t need the label of afro Latino in the case of Luz as a blanket because ultimately we’re a very varied people and this is for US. We have black representation in media and I love it, but never before have I seen Dominican representation.
Avatar was one of the first shows I saw anyone that was native like me and the pan indigenous issues with it are one thing but alot of the fandom just really let me down. The live action really started a lot of racism to be thrown at kataras actress who is actually native while sokkas actor is not and he doesn't really have a lot of non natives calling him out
Agreed! I feel like a lot of non native fans are like, "well, it's never gonna be as bad as the movie, so shut up complaining about it." If they were able to find an accurate actress for Katara, wouldn't you think it's lazy and disrespectful for them to not for Sokka???
Sokka is native. SJW's are just slandering against him
@@almas4663no he’s not Cherokee Phoenix wrote an an article about the Cherokee Nation Film Office and how they work and they mentioned Ian Ousley in it, they said he’s not Cherokee
@@nayeli-dw7go He is native, just not from this specific tribe. But he's till the only one who's worthy of playing Sokka
@@almas4663Then what tribe is he from?
tbh, biracial people don't always look like their actual race. my mom is black and my dad is asian. my brother is white passing and kiiinda asian-looking if you squint while i just look korean. neither me or my brother look anything like our parents. and i like to make characters like me sometimes!! ambigous mixed people EXIST and when handled correctly, there is no problem with ambigously mixed characters!!
im saying this because i literally saw someone say that it's not okay to make a mixed character who doesn't look like one of the races she's mixed with because character design isn't random like genetics are which is so fucking wrong. i think it's only bad if you use it as an excuse to make all of your poc characters look white and then say "uhh no, theres a lot of representation actually, see, all of these characters here are mixed!!" and then literally none of them look black or asian or latine or whatever. but to say that you cant have characters like that AT ALL is fucked
I don't know If I would say Sokka or even Aang appear white passing. Aang may have a skinny nose but he still appears asian with his eye shape, and Sokka just seems to have a more slender face and the filter applied makes him seem whiter skin wise. I could see an argument that maybe their features don't match their exact ethnicities being central asian and idigenous american coming from the arctic reigon, but not white.
Agreed 💯
To be fair that Reddit commenter was right in the fact the 2 characters looked way more like they are mixed Caucasians
Honestly, this is also adds to the casting of biracial actors as monoracial roles. You always seeing light skinned actresses with 1c hair playing the daughter of two dark-skinned 4c parents. (Eg. Zoe Saldana in Guess Who and Death At A Funeral)
TALK ABOUT IT!!
Or the reverse
@@annasolovyeva1013🤨
Zoe Saldana doesn't have "1c hair" (which I'm pretty sure is not a thing, there's only type 1), she has it straightened. But otherwise very on point.
@briannab4037 it was hyperbole. That chart isn't for me, my hair is another texture.
I thought marceline's mom was indian to be honest. Marceline's mother looks pretty ambiguous.
All the humans and humanoids in that show have two dots for eyes and a line for a mouth. They're not really meant to be that distinguishing.
That perfectly fits the description of indigenous Americans, Australian aboriginals, and even south East Asians. Having brown skin and black hair (straight or curly) is the default for the majority of people on this planet.
@@agme8045 Aboriginies (genetically) have curly hair. Though many Aboriginal-identifying, albiet mixed race people, do have straighter hair.
For the Luz design, I want to add the fact that once they got the feedback and made Luz’s hair more textured as it grew in the third season. Them hearing the upset about Gus and Camilla’s hair, which is why they gave Camilla curlier hair. They should’ve done that beforehand, but it’s nice that they fixed it,
It's good they were receptive to the feedback!
@@Nani.101 Very good!! I honestly really like it when shows listen to their fans and fix issues in the show when they can. I wish that happened more in shows.
I understand the point and the significance of representing both part's of a characters identity.
Maybe it's just me but instead of it being a mistake it was a regular creative decision to give her more straight hair instead of curly. I think apart of me Wonders where the necessity and the creative liberties part comes in
@@audreyharris7643 well, it could be a creative decision- but the fact that they listened to constructive criticism and fixed issues means there was issues in the first place if that makes any sense
@@sunny.rainbows fair enough
One of the weird patterns I noticed is that outside of mostly black casted and/or crewed productions is that a level of ambiguity is usually given to black women but not black men as much. You dont really see guys like Sage Elesser, Wade Allain Marcus or Michael Ealy who are also light skinned or biracial get casted as black characters while light skinned or multiracial black women will. In white Hollywood Zendaya can play a fully black woman even though she's biracial. John David Washington will get a role as a black man before Sage could. For Owl House Gus can be unambiguous but Luz wasn't. Its an interesting pattern to me.
Sidenote Ang turning into Angraham Lincoln will always have me in tears 😂😂. Give this mf a top hat and an axe and he look like he's about to ratify the 13th amendment with his 4 Score and 7 years ago looking ass.
Ahhh this was a point I wanted to make in Marceline's section but completely forgot! Thank you!!
Also Aangbraham Lincoln has me dead 😂
It's definitely rooted in the bias that Blackness is inherently masculine.
@@Nani.101 and aggressive. Its why there's an angry black woman trope. I feel like a lot of the people coming for your neck in the comments are missing the point. It's not that multiracial black girls shouldn't get representation it's that when it comes to portraying blackness why are they usually the ones that do and why are black men always portrayed as hyper masculine aggressive overly stoic men of action. And for the people who do fit these roles in real life where is the nuance for this portrayal on screen or in script. It'd be nice to see artists switch it up a bit.
This is how I felt with flora from winx club. As a young ambiguous looking island girl, I always felt seen through flora, she looked like me, she was a nature girly. Loved her. I remember people getting angry at me when I said I felt seen through her. Because she's not black she's latina and there is no way a latina could be part black .... well I'm just happy layla came into the show later on as well
This! I'm realizing people love to do this thing where they think a character can only be one race and it's so stupid. Like Flora for example could definately be mixed, any of the girls could be and i honestly feel like if people considered that a possiblity, we wouldn't have these wars amongst ourselves with people going 'well actually, they are just this.'
What makes adult Sokka and Aang's lack of ethnic features so frustrating is that it's a symptom of a bigger problem with The Legend of Korra in that there's a very obvious Eurocentric throughline that didn't previously exist in the metaphysics of Avatar. Republic City is based on New York, Los Angeles, and Paris (and yes, several cities in Asia like Hong Kong and Shanghai did serve as inspirations...but said cities are directly the products of western colonialism). The mover episode recaps are voiced by a narrator who clearly sounds like he's ripped from 1920's New York. Korra's outfit is meant to evoke a certain Olympian runner's uniform. Cars become the new form of transportation in TLOK and are designed after early Ford cars. Much of the fashion of Republic City pulls from early 20th century America. And of course, the existence of movers and how Pro-Bending is modeled after UFC and the MMA scene.
We can't forget the giant statue of Aang as the Statue of Liberty.
And it gets worse because Book Two has Unaloq depicted as what is obviously a Yellow Peril racist stereotype villain in the movers. The Dark Avatar stuff is a regurgitation of "dark god vs good god" which in its specific framing is another example of "Satan vs God" in the modern western consciousness. Varrick not only looks, dresses, and acts white, he SOUNDS like a white greedy moneymaker (and hey, that's because his inspirations are white rich guys).
Book Four meanwhile just has Kuvira's regime visually pull from Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany with shades of Soviet Russia.
That's not even getting into the comics where the Water Tribe randomly now has Greco-Roman columns in its architecture. Or the sheer amount of background characters with modern western-esque clothing.
I would pull more examples but you get the gist. The entirety of TLOK has an enormous amount of whiteness baked into it deliberately: Brian and Mike did NOT have to depict an industrializing Asian fantasy world (after a world war) with European culture jammed into it. They could have easily decided to make TLOK's metaphysics in-line with ATLA where it was distinctly and solely Asian. But they didn't want to do that! They went out of their way to make TLOK's world resemble a post-WW1 Eurocentric world and compromised ATLA's cultural identity as a result.
GAHDAMN I wish I could pin more than one comment!!
I literally just watched a video of Xiran Jay Zhao's that touched on this. And how the solution to all the political problems was "idk make it more like American democracy."
@@wordnerd9991I need to check this out
I think this also why didn’t stick with Korra after the 1st season. It just felt like a different show telling different values from the established series. I appreciate the animation but I felt very alienated as a fan when everything felt so Americanized in a show that didn’t need or ask for it.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to tell you why your whole argument is incredibly racist.
"What makes adult Sokka and Aang's lack of ethnic features in LoK so frustrating is that it's a symptom of a bigger problem with The Legend of Korra in that there's a very obvious Eurocentric throughline that didn't previously exist in the metaphysics of Avatar. "
This is very racist of you to say. You're saying that Sokka and Aang not having stereotypical features makes them look white. You will probably deny this, of course, but it's true. You literally say "ethnic," so by "European," you mean Caucasian. Never mind that Sokka, y'know, has dark skin. It's a lot like the people who go "why are the characters in anime white?" Characters in animation are drawn to look like normal people, so if they "look white" to a certain person, that implies they expect Asian people to look abnormal.
Also relevant here is Orientalism, or the tendency for western observers to view Asian culture in a highly stereotyped way, such as what you are doing. Often, people engaging in Orientalism see themselves as enjoying Asian culture, blind to the way they force it into rigid, inaccurate stereotypes that see it as something almost alien. Orientalism is a huge problem in this fanbase.
"Republic City is based on New York, Los Angeles, and Paris (and yes, several cities in Asia like Hong Kong and Shanghai did serve as inspirations...but said cities are directly the products of western colonialism)"
I challenge you to show me what a modern city with absolutely no influence from Europe looks like. I mean we can never know what that looks like because use reality as an inspiration for fiction, and the reality is that all modern cities are shaped to some extent by exposure to European culture. Even something like Wakanda in the MCU takes some amount of inspiration from actual cities.
"The mover episode recaps are voiced by a narrator who clearly sounds like he's ripped from 1920's New York."
That is an INCREDIBLY racist statement. Because you just assume that Asian cultures can't produce films.
"Korra's outfit is meant to evoke a certain Olympian runner's uniform."
Other than the sleeveless top, no. No it isn't. Korra wears athletic clothing, not anything from a particular sport. The clothing also sports clear signifiers of heritage, like her Water Tribe furs and the "Asian-style way it closes," since I don't actually know what that's called. But you can see it in the white line that runs across her upper chest. That's the way the garment closes, and it's very commonly seen in traditional Asian clothing.
"Cars become the new form of transportation in TLOK and are designed after early Ford cars"
Why don't you have a problem with the steamships and airships in ATLA then? Other than the bowspike, they're not significantly different from western designs. You also leave out the fact that there are often limited ways to solve a particular problem. For example, cities tend toward grids and tall buildings because it's the most efficient way to group a lot of people into a space, although there's a point of diminishing returns if the building is TOO tall, which is why cities tend to have only a handful of true "skyscrapers." In the case of the car, the Model T wasn't actually the best way to solve a lot of problems, but it was also the easiest to produce with the technology at the time. So, even if you could look into some alternate universe where Asia spearheaded the industrial revolution, you would see them converge on certain concepts.
"Much of the fashion of Republic City pulls from early 20th century America."
Yes, though it's often mixed with Asian elements, like the thing I talked about with Korra's shirt or clasps clearly styled off of what I call the Manchurian Jacket--continuing the trend of me not knowing the proper names for things--like the kind worn by Long Feng. Also, what about outside of Republic City? The Earth Kingdom fashion still seems the same, the Fire Royals and Red Lotus still wear their robes, and Zaofu wears robes that are modernized, with only small amounts of inspiration from 1920's fashion.
"and how Pro-Bending is modeled after UFC and the MMA scene."
I'd ask how else one portrays the modernization of martial arts, but the answer is you don't want that. You just want the same exact styles used in ATLA to continue being used in perpetuity and always portrayed as unreasonably effective. Which, as per the running theme, plays into Orientalist/Noble Savage idea of Asian traditions as being superior because they aren't "corrupted by modern society."
"We can't forget the giant statue of Aang as the Statue of Liberty."
Do you have anything that isn't a petty aesthetic complaint? So, the statue was inspired by the Statue of Liberty. Who cares? It's not like Asian people don't build giant statues.
"And it gets worse because Book Two has Unaloq depicted as what is obviously a Yellow Peril racist stereotype villain in the movers."
Umm...no? That was clearly a parody of those kind of stereotypes like Ming the Merciless and Fu Manchu. Or did you conveniently ignore that context to project your own racist views on the show?
"The Dark Avatar stuff is a regurgitation of "dark god vs good god" which in its specific framing is another example of "Satan vs God" in the modern western consciousness."
Seriously, are you even capable of viewing anything without a western lens? Raava and Vaatu are represented as dark/chaos and light/peace. The west views darkness as the absence of light, not its counterpart. Your argument is pure straw man.
"Varrick not only looks, dresses, and acts white, he SOUNDS like a white greedy moneymaker (and hey, that's because his inspirations are white rich guys)."
First of all, it's racist of you to say that someone "dresses and acts" white. Second of all, Varrick is another dark-skinned character that you are just blatantly calling white. And what does "his inspirations are rich white guys" even mean? Like all Asian people or non-white people are some poor but noble savages? Your racism is off charts here! "Sounds white?" This statement is the most stereotypical racism since the minstrel show. It's the kind of thing people would say about Obama, like wearing a suit and having a typical American accent meant he was pretending to be a white person.
"Book Four meanwhile just has Kuvira's regime visually pull from Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany with shades of Soviet Russia."
And of course, you can't think of any non-Eurocentric dictatorships. Conveniently ignoring all the allegories Kuvira's regime pulls from Chiang kai-Shek's China.
"That's not even getting into the comics where the Water Tribe randomly now has Greco-Roman columns in its architecture."
??? Where? Where's the Greco-Roman influence on those columns? Columns are not strictly European.
"The entirety of TLOK has an enormous amount of whiteness baked into it deliberately: Brian and Mike did NOT have to depict an industrializing Asian fantasy world (after a world war) with European culture jammed into it. They could have easily decided to make TLOK's metaphysics in-line with ATLA where it was distinctly and solely Asian. But they didn't want to do that! They went out of their way to make TLOK's world resemble a post-WW1 Eurocentric world and compromised ATLA's cultural identity as a result."
This is all meaningless waffle. I haven't even touched on how weird it is that you keep using the term "metaphysics." Spoiler alert: It's racist again. Not the term "metaphysics" itself, but the way you'Re using it. See, metaphysics is a branch of philosophy that deals with the nature of reality. Everything we know to be real is "physics," and the meta includes hypotheticals outside of known physics, like is there a multiverse, are there gods, is there a supernatural component to the cosmos, etc.
To use it in this context, besides smacking of "I am trying to sound really smart," it also implies there's a metaphysical essence of race. This isn't some unprecedented idea, either, pretty much every racist movement believes this. It's the same basic idea as Manifest Destiny, or the White Man's Burden, the idea that white people had some spiritual edict to spread across the world and "civilize lesser races." It was also Imperial Japan's idea of "pan-Asianism," that all Asian cultures were "meant to be one" with, of course, Japan as the leader. I could go on, but the point is that describing "Asianness" as a product of "metaphysics" has deeply racist implications.
Beyond that, obviously every design inclusion was a choice. But so what? "It's a choice, therefore it's bad" is a complete logical fallacy. Every part of a creative work is a choice. It was a choice not to use African cultures as an inspiration, but I don't see people arguing that makes ATLA inherently anti-black.
There are already very obvious Asian influences in Republic City, such as the roofs of the cars and all the architectural styles. I guarantee you, even if there were more, you would still make this "it's too westernized" argument. Because your fundamental complaint is that it's deviated from your Orientalist view of Asia as some idyllic low-tech fantasy world you can use to escape from your real life. That's why everything modern always gets seen as somehow "inherently unAsian," even if Asian people have and enjoy those things.
I personally like racially ambiguous characters. I find it helps more people be able to see themselves in the character. Like I really loved reading the Diary of a Wimpy Kid books as a kid, and all the characters were drawn as these very simplistic cartoon characters. It was very easy to see yourself as the characters. But then the live action movie came out, and everyone was just white, it made it harder to see myself as Greg
simplistic art is different from racial ambiguity. when anyone can imprint onto anyone, minority groups, and especially black people, are the least likely to be able to. if a character isn't directly stated to be black, either through design or statement, no one will accept them as such, which is distinctly bad for representation. for everyone that ain't white or (east)asian, being represented in media is way more of a zero sum game.
As a non-American, I feel like you guys are the cause of your own problems. Maybe if Americans weren’t so insistent on defining everyone’s race and putting people into such strict categories (full of stereotypes, by the way) there wouldn’t be a need to state that a character is ‘black’ or whatever other race.
Race itself is a tricky concept, that has no biological or scientific value (outside of social sciences I mean), that Americans keep pushing into the global community. These cartoons and animated shows are seen all around the world where people don’t see everything through the American “racial lens’. Not everything is white and black, the real world is racially ambiguous because racial categories are so ambiguous and fluid themselves.
It’s like the thing about Dominicans that was mentioned in the video. In Dominican society, being black doesn’t mean the same as in the states. Yet Americans try to push their own views onto the rest of the world. In the DR, having African ancestry is not the same as being black. The one-drop-rule doesn’t apply there, and neither it does in all of Latin America. In the DR, blackness is associated with being Haitian (why? Idk, I’m not from there. But I’m sure there are numerous reasons as to why it is that way).
But for example Garnet, from Steven universe, I never, not a single time watching the show, ever thought about her race, like wth, she’s an alien gem-creature, why would she even be part of a human race. Or Marceline’s mother, she has brown skin and dark hair, just like most human beings alive from every corner of the world, so, first of all who cares about her race? Why is it such a big deal to determine what racial group she would ‘belong’ to. If you like her character and somehow feel like you look like her, what else do you need? If she doesn’t have your same hair texture or your exact skin color, she’s automatically deemed unworthy to represent you?
Like, as a Latino myself, I’ve never felt represented with any “Latino” character in any US show or movie. (The closest is probably the Russo family in the wizards of Waverley place,
@@agme8045very telling that you say all of this, while admittedly only feeling represented by the whitest Latino family on kids TV 😅. Of course race doesn't matter to you.
@@Nani.101 do you realize how utterly ignorant it is to say “whitest latino family”. You know, I recently watched a CZcams video from a guy who explained the whole concept behind being an “Oreo” or “acting white” as a black man (he was called those things his whole life, because as a black man he never behaved “ghetto enough”, according to his own words)
Now I understand what he meant. Americans don’t seem to be capable of going outside of their little American box, with all their racial stereotypes and categories.
The Russo family may seem whitewash or “too white to be latino” for you, but they look like an average family in Latin America. The fact that the dad was of Italian heritage made it a much more accurate depiction of a Latino family (maybe you think we are all little umpa lumpas down here, and not that there’d be anything wrong with that, but it’s simply not the case. Encanto is a better example of the amount of diversity there can be in just one latino family (truth be told, it’s usually not thaaat diverse in most families, but in general it was a good representation of how people in Latin America come in all shapes and colors, and that there’s no stigma in marrying outside your family’s race, not because this is utopia, but because we don’t box ourselves in races and historically nobody cared about that kind of thing and, significantly, it was not outlawed by our governments to marry whoever you wished. Where im from, people from all backgrounds date each other, regardless of their heritage, we are all a mix between Arabs, Europeans, natives, and Africans. And it’s not some 21st century accomplishment, it’s been like that always, centuries ago.
As far as it concerns me, the Good Luck Charlie family could be Hispanic too. There’s not a single thing about them that would make them not-Hispanic/latino. I know whole families who look and behave just like they would. But I guess the American part of you wouldn’t allow for you to see it that way.
And you may wonder, why I’m only talking about “white” families. Well because white people in American media seem to be the only “default people” whose whole personality isn’t based around being of a certain ethnicity or racial group. Or do you think real Latinos from Latin America, talk all day about their super fun festive ancestral culture, and their struggles as a minority group in the USA? This may come as a surprise to you, but we don’t! We aren’t even minorities, and our culture only becomes relevant when it’s a special date, like 4th of July in the states.
@@starboy8571 I’m sorry that you felt that way, I’m truly are. Everyone deserves representation. But being racially ambiguous is basically the definition of being Latino. Mixed/mestizo people usually are racially ambiguous. In most parts of this world, it’s not all so white and black like in the states. Most societies aren’t as racially segregated and in general people fuck whoever they want, which leads to miscegenation and Americans not being able to tell all about someone’s ancestry simply by looking at them.
The issue here, in my opinion, would be what were the producers intentions. Do they make characters racially ambiguous so that more people feel seen or more people can relate to them? Maybe they are basing the characters on someone they know?
Or is it something more shitty like they don’t want to make white people mad by making black characters with strong Afro-features? Or maybe they themselves don’t like afro-features due to internalized racism, or blatant racism, and they tend to go for a more Eurocentric look?
Idk as a Hispanic, luz definitely looks Afro-Latina to me. I think it’s because the people talking about this haven’t lived in a Hispanic country, but as a Mexican, whose lived in Mexico, I thought luz was black and Latina. Idk I just think it would be obvious if you looked at a group of Hispanics. Most aren’t that that dark. Actually, majority of them would probably be white or brown but not as dark as luz (this probably sounds rlly weird 😭 sorry!) Edit: I wanted to add on that whenever a character is afro latino or just mixed in general it’s really hard to get it right. Miles morales is shown to be Puerto Rican, but I would’ve never known this if it wasn’t for his mom being in the movie. I would’ve thought he was just black. It’s the same thing for the opposite side. He’s isn’t “Latino looking” enough. It isn’t a bad thing but I think it’s what happened with Luz.
i agree, many people tend to think being latino is like a race :(
@@Fan_del_Yaoi_de_viejos115well latino isn’t a race, neither is Hispanic, so there isn’t a “look” to being either, because it’s an ethnicity. Two full Asians, two full black people and two full white people are all capable of being Latino/Hispanic, Latino just means from South America, and Hispanic means of Spanish speaking origin, which can be applied to any race.
@@Fan_del_Yaoi_de_viejos115That's what I think. At least on the Spanish American side, we are a mixture of anything. The Latin thing is because of the language. Xd
I think this is a tad bit overly simplistic of the demographics of Latin America and how vastly different they can be from one place to another. Like you're a Mexican, who's lived in Mexico, great, but Luz is supposed to be Dominican and while yes, Dominicans come in all shades and colors, and all types of hair textures, most of us do fall in the darker side of mixed with afrotextured hair, dark eyes, wide noses, fuller lips, etc... DR as a country has very little Indigenous presence in our admixture, and a lot of African ancestry (along with European ancestry as well), which differs a lot from Mexico and other countries in the region.
Seeing Luz in TV I can tell you most children from here wouldn't have really recognized her right away as Dominican just by looking at her 💀
@@unruffledhomelander Not trying to be confrontational but I quite literally said in my comment Dominicans come in all shades and colors and all types of hair textures, I know you cannot visually just know whether someone is Dominican or not right away just by looking at them.
That doesn't mean most Dominicans don't have a common ancestry which often reflects on the visual characteristics of the people, and which people (and specially children in this case) generally take as reference to think if they see themselves represented in a character.
I remember the fandom being in denial when they confirmed Marceline was half-black. She tried to claim her mother was anything but that even after the reveal. I remember arguing with people about it who kept contradicting themselves. It was ridiculous. I wasn't too surprised; I assumed they took inspiration from the voice actress's background.
I remember reading that they dis.
Can i also add that Garnet from Steven Universe (SPOILER FROM STEVEN UNIVERSE SEASON 2) is not only a character that i design to be black but also a character that it design to simbolized a relationship that is not accepted in society (for example a homosexual relationship but also an interracial one since Garnet's character was created after Rebecca Sugar was attacked for being in a relationship with a black man, their husband Ian Jones Quartey)
SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK 📣
@@Nani.101 Can i also say that i appreciate how resonable you were in the video, you didn't make bad faith assumptions, you didn't strawman any arguments, i really like you the way you have approached both sides of the arguments, i really like it
I'm gonna be totally honest I didn't know Rebecca and Ian were married
Yes, they were once attacked by racists because of their interracial relationship, and “Stronger Than You” is partially about surviving those kinds of incidents.
(Also, a bit off topic, but IanJ-Q is a grandson of Theodosia Okoh, the designer of the flag of Ghana - he based Nanefua on her. His being the decendant of a national hero had a pretty big influence on the basic concept of Steven Universe)
I look like luz and I like her just the way she is because she makes me fell seen. I’m half Japanese and half black, my hair is a bit curly and I have the same skin as her… I think she’s perfect the way she is and they didn’t need to change her but that’s just my opinion
edit: and yes I know she isn’t the same race as me but I don’t have anyone else that looks like me that I know
Everyone deserves representation, and I'm glad you've been able to find it in her! ❤
I'm mixed Native and Mexican, Luz was one of the few FEW Latin American characters I had ever seen that looked so much like me. Luz and Wildernessa from Craig Of The Creek. While this made me feel so overjoyed seeing Luz, it does hit very differently knowing she is supposed to be Afro-Dominican. She can represent latinx people, while so many mixed black kids with Latin American cultures and identities are missing that same feeling. There was such a missed opportunity for representation that hardly ever gets shown in media.
I think when we talk about Marceline the problems end up being very... American centered?
When you live in more racially diverse places where miscegenation is historically more common (like Brasil, where I'm from), accepting Marcie as... Well, "non white" is far simpler. I was born darker than my mom and my dad and no one cared cause my grandpa was the son of a white italian guy and a half indigenous, half black woman. So we just carry diverse genes and are used to having straight hair in dark skins. Depending on the region of the country I am, people will call me white because there was less miscegenation there and more obviously black people live there, but in another state where people are whiter, descended from Germans, italians and spanish people I am treated as black. I grew up with LOADS of racism towards me as a kid but after I moved people barely notice me as racially... anything.
Americans have a far more pure race perspective on things. Mostly because of the more aggressive segregation and the relationship to Mexican borders. I've seen discourse about marrying inside your race and how much of a big deal it is, while here we're not so strict. It has been a problem cause loads of brazilian youth kind of watch too much american stuff and started relating to racial things that we simply do not experience.
To me, Marceline's mom being black or not isn't really a thing. She has a somewhat dark skin, she herself could be "half black" if that's a thing for you guys.
I think the idea of racial ambiguity is fair when you think about the reasons behind it like "why would the creator purposefully want to not make a character's race clear" but also it bothers me a bit cause being racially ambiguous in real life sucks when you have to deal with american structures being forced in the whole world. I could've lived okay but every fucking movie and popular TV show in the movies and tv is american, full of strict racial paradigms that other people used to define me when it never fitted a reality. I am able to identify to Marcy BECAUSE of her being vaguely descended darker skinned people without any specific label being attributed to her.
Thank you! Im a Brazilian usually read as white but people have called me parda (brown) as well (no sul, principalmente hahah) and in the US I’m definitely not white. I’ve never suffered discrimination but I agree that importing a racial logic that doesn’t really apply to our social-historical reality can be super confusing. Race can be a very subjective topic in Brazil because of mixing and it’s even sometimes linked to class (My grandfather was not white, but everybody just pretends he was because he was middle class, for example. Another example is Neymar claiming whiteness). Race is a social construct, and a very fluid one in Latam.
@@anacarolinamenezes8912 amiga eu sou de Porto Alegre, cresci sendo chamado de negão, sumia estojo na sala de aula brincavam q eu tinha roubado, nunca fui chamado pelo nome, era sempre apelidos referentes a minha cor. Me mudei pra SP me chamam de branco. Aí faz o q né? Apaga todo o racismo q vc sofreu? Tenta abraçar uma identidade q ngm te vê como? Pra mim foi aceitar q no Brasil esse rolê n funciona e q é só a gente exportando gringuice
@@adrinocarvalo eu resolvi me guiar pela minha experiência. Nunca sofri discriminação por cor de pele, então não me sinto confortável me declarando como qualquer coisa que não branca. A mãe do meu namorado é negra, mas ele é visto como branco, apesar de tecnicamente ser pardo. Ele também não acha justo se declarar como pardo porque ele tem todos os privilégios de ser branco.
Eu acho que é isso, sabe. A identidade racial no Brasil é muito mais ampla. Vai por traços físicos, textura do cabelo, cor da pele, não exatamente por sangue. São suas características físicas que importam no final em como você é tratado. Nos eua, se você tem uma gota de sangue não-branco, você não é branco. Aqui, seria meio doido pensar em alguém meio branco, meio negro, por exemplo. A mãe do meu namorado é negra, mas ela é mestiça, assim como o pai dele, que e branco, assim como ele, mas também mestiço. Mas ele é tratado de maneira diferente dos irmãos, que são mais escuros e tem o cabelo mais cacheado. É uma doideira esse negócio. Mas a verdade é que o racismo e a supremacia das características brancas (inclusive em relação a herança cultural) são muito presentes, e tão graves quanto nos eua, mas a dinâmica é muito diferente. Precisamos estudar levando em conta a nossa realidade, temos muitos intelectuais que exploram a raça no contexto da América Latina, mas por causa de imperialismo cultural, as pessoas em geral tem mais contato com questões que se aplicam mais aos EUA e acabam reproduzindo isso é ignorando muitos fatores importantes.
What you're saying is so correct, I think part of the problem is that in America all characters are considered white unless depicted otherwise - they have to be obviously or stereotypically another race, which can cause people to be unhappy (and even angry) when a character they assumed was white turns out to not be white. An example is gumball and darwin from the Amazing world of Gumball (gumball is a cat and darwin is a fish, none of the characters are human), when artists make human versions of them no one asks why Gumball is white but the whole comment section asks why Darwin is black and some even call it cultural appropriation.
no this the usual cap that latin-americans say about the US. the truth is that the US is just as racially diverse as the latin-american states, and just as mixed up. we weren't "more segregated" in the way that latino/hispanic people think, and we don't have that much more of a pure idea of race. YOU have a white supremacist idea of race. "bettering the race" is the guiding idea of all latino countries including brazil. "miscegenation" is not something that exists within a vacuum. brazil, like all latin-american countries, didn't mix freely, it was first contextualized through rape, and then contextualized through colorism.
the idea that "people don't see you as racially anything" is indicative to me that you're probably white passing, because i know black people from all over the world, and the idea of "not being seen as anything" doesn't exist for us. brazil, like all hispanic/latino countries has a colorist hierarchy, and black folks, like usual, are at the bottom of it, and then brown(indio) and then white(mestizo) at the top. if you're "not seen as anything", then you're likely not dark enough(or otherwise phenotypically black enough) to be seen as black and any racism you received from white brazilians was likely a result of them seeing you as less white than they are. brazil has the largest group of black people within the diaspora outside of africa, but you'd never know it by looking at brazilian media. i've spoken to afro-brazilians(which you don't seem to be) and they all have said that they know what black is, and they know how brazil treats black people.
this concept of colorist racism not existing outside of america and that black and brown people in other countries being "corrupted" by american media(which you outright said) is bs. the truth is that the world and especially latin america has done it's damndest to kill the black and brown out of it's populations in favor of white, and now those populations have decided they'd rather resist that. because your vision of a "mixed brazil" is one that distinctly excludes blackness.
About Marceline, I've always understood it as the vampire alleles are dominant so she turned out looking like her father.
Ok i have to point this out, the only thing you got wrong is that she is half demon, that's the part that is dominant. Marceline wasn't born a vampire and even when she's bitten she looks exactly the same
As a pale mixed person, I never knew Marceline was of African descent. Then again, I haven't watched Adventure Time in a whole decade, so...
Also, 'looks Latino' isn't really that descriptive because Latinos are way more diverse, some of them are literally of Spanish descent, some are mixed, some are more indigenous, etc.
As a dominican person, we do not like to distinguish ourselves based on ethnicity, we might have the whitest skin imaginable or the darkest but we’ll still call ourselves mestizo/mulato, because we’re all mixed, it’s just superficial
People frequently call us “afro-latino” indiscriminately, that’s why it’s just a label for luz
Thank God we don't normalize that gatekeeping shit 💯 it's hella annoying
other than colorism..
Us Latinos are pretty inclusive, well...more inclusive compared to north americans anyways
Honestly race is important I used to one of those people who didn't care about representation (I am mixed) until I started writing myself and started doing research on other cultures.
I find them interesting and fascinating and if done in the right way I feel like modern mainstream media fails at this which is why I've started my own series with alot of representation its incorporated in a way that the characters races cannot be changed.
I do that through magic, different races of people have different forms of magic based on their connection with their original God's.
Most people do not have magic because they abandoned their God's for Christianity
So you're just gonna drop this fire plot line and not share any more details!?!!!!!
I'm glad someone's finally talking about what they did to aang and sokka because what the actual hell was that 💀 I was surprised people wanted to see more of them when they were older or even thought they looked hot because I felt nothing but immense disappointment when I saw all the Asian and indigenous inspirations go down the drain with their older designs. they were already fairly ambiguous in avatar the last airbender because of the anime inspired art style but instead of taking advantage of the more refined art style legend of korra has and giving them more ethnic features they just turned them into these weird lizard creatures
Lizard creatures is so accurate cause wtf?? If they don't do them justice in the adult animated movie it might turn me off of new ATLA content for a bit😩. Because what's the excuse????
@@Nani.101 right like 🙁🙁
Lizard creatures is OD lmao
If you liked this video I would highly recommend the video 'The white washing of Asian girls' by youtuber Amanda Todhunter. Which goes into detail the distressing design trend of giving so many Asian descended characters blue eyes. It pairs really well with this one.
My video gets recommended from that alot according to CZcams Studio, so I need to check it out!
I loved this video and your personality! I'm Mexican American, darker skinned with stronger features than than my siblings. I'm 27 and loved Alex from totally spies, and Mucha Lucha. Same with Dib and Gaz from invader zim as they're Hispanic. It's heartwarming seeing that children now are getting so many culturally diverse characters.
YEESSS Mucha Lucha!! I've been thinking about making a video on Kids WB shows
@@Nani.101 omg that would be awesome! I loved Jackie chan adventures 😄
Wait the Membranes are Hispanic???
WAIT DIP AND GAZ ARE HISPANIC!?
@@kaimobley5324yup!
FWIW with Luz, her appearance is very directly inspired by one of Dana's friends, and a storyboarder for the series, Luz Batista. The hair texture does seem to match to me? Batista's hair looks to be more wavy than curly, at least with how she wears it, with a lot of frizz. I definitely hear what you're saying as a whole but in this specific case, it feels a little weird to critique the design for not being afro enough when it's directly based on a real life afro latina.
And also, who cares???, the show isn't about race, in fact it's about being welcoming not matter what kind of wierdo you are
@@jsostick
Because it’s still colorism
Which btw they changed Luz’s hair texture in alter seasons because they listened to fans and based it more accurately to Basitsta’s hair
@@afrolens9532 Was it really that straight to begin with? I’ve seen people with curly hair cut said hair not be identifiable as curly haired before. Sometimes cutting it short can make a huge difference in appearance.
28:53 I actually really love that you keep mentioning intentions cuz when it comes to animation EVERYTHING HAS TO BE INTENTIONAL. Like they can’t add 1mil1 details to everything and they have specific resources and times and frames they have to use efficiently. Acting with intention is everything due to the very nature of the medium. This should be no different.
so about Luz.
she is afro-latina yes. but that is more like simprification
the problem is that sometimes people have a very vague idea of the "latina" part. because how Latin-America work with races.
Luz's father "Manny" probable short for Manuel, is very Spaniard in look, which means that he is probable has multiple generation of South European and Latin American mixing in term of genes.
But again, you can't never know, latin america is mixing genes for 500 years, someone can look black but has 70% european genes, or look white and have 70% african genes, you have dark skins parent having light skin children or the other way around all the time. families like the Madrigal from ENCANTO, are very common. having members with a whole rainbow of diferent skin tones
so in short Latin-Americans have stacked mixed race over maxid race for so longue, that is not longer a 1+1=2 situation is more like X+Y/Z-A (B+C)=D situation.
so with Luz you have a mother that we know has at least one generation mixed Afro-Latina, and a father that is probable multiple generations of mixed Euro-Latino mixing. so yeah you can say Luz is Afro-Latina, but that dont means will show up on how she looks.
so in short if a character is Latin, how the character will look is a big X.
Bro wtf are you talking about, we don't even see manny almost at all besides one picture, why are you assuming so much about his race based on a picture of half of his body
@@jsostick we have face and full body pictures
@@rafaelsantos-nl9jd no, there's only one full picture but his face is obscured, and another pic where you can see only half of his face those are literally the only instances
@@jsostick so you basically just say that if you put the two picture together you have a full body picture, what the issue ?
Your not making any sense to me
Great video. Really thoughtful discussion and I love your energy. I went into TOH knowing Luz was supposed to be Afro-Latina…literally no hint of that whatsoever in the show itself. Then later I learned that Willow from TOH is also supposed to be Asian...when her design is identical to the white characters' designs. 🙃Someone please help out the TOH character designers, they're struggling out here!
But that's why I agree with you that we need more diversity "behind the camera" so to speak as well as in the characters. Matt Braly did such an amazing job incorporating Anne's Thai identity into Amphibia and I think if we had more creators of color on animated shows we'd see more thought and care being paid to the character designs of the characters of color. (Which is not to say white creators are incapable of handling characters of color with care…just that it's often not a priority especially if the rest of their team is white or majority-white. 😐)
Anyway, awesome first video and I hope you keep making them!
You said nothing but the truth! When I found out Willow was Asian I was shocked! Looking at her two dads, one of them does pass as Asian, so maybe she's mixed through surrogacy. This just makes me wish that TOH team had more time to flesh out the third season.
@@Nani.101she's Asian? I thought Willow wasn't even human
@@audreyharris7643 She's Asian in the same way that most of the characters from Avatar as Asian.
Most fantasy and sci fi Asian characters are Asian as in 'racially, they are Asian', and not 'they come from and/or live in Asia', because a lot of the time Asia, the place, doesn't exist.
@@theviewer6889 alright then
Having a person of color doesn't necessarily mean they're going to represent their culture properly. As I recall, the showrunner on "Primos" based the show on her own life, and there was a lot of backlash about the intro.
!!!!! as an Inuk, a lot of the water tribes traits really grind my gears 😭😭😭 thank you so much for talking about it , i didn’t even know people were redesigning sokka to make him look more indigenous ! (this is lowkey motivating me to make this clarifying / redesigning the water tribe as someone who grew up on the rez)
The Water Tribe's culture may be based on Native Americans and Inuit people, but they also kinda look like Mesolithic Western Europeans (e.g. the Cheddar Man specimen) to me based on their combination of darker skin and blue eyes. I know it's a coincidence, but it's an interesting one to me anyway.
Something that I think gets way over looked in the topic of race in ATLA is eye color. The show creators chose to use blue, green, gray, and light brown/caramel eye colors. None of which are typical in the Asian phenotype. Aang, Toph, Tylee and Zuko are colored with the same colors that a show not inspired by Asian cultures airing next hour is using for their european-descent characters.
For example, I'm a white American with brown hair, and blue-gray eyes, and I look like Tylee (we both have round faces). When I have short hair and put it half up, people have told me I look like Suki
So a kid/teenager watching the show and going "hey Toph has green eyes and black hair like me, and I'm white, and her skin is the color crayon I would use to draw me, so Toph is white" shouldnt be getting blasted to smithereens and called racist because the animators chose to use phenotypes for their characters that are not typical to the cultures they pulled from for the world. A younger adult who loved the show but never thought about it more deeply after seeing it as a kid shouldn't be getting torn apart for saying "a live action wont look like them because Aang has gray eyes, and Toph has green eyes, not dark brown". Just explain it to them and now they've learned something new and understand it.
Now any of them that don't take the chance to learn that the character design choices are mostly symbolic and they were always Asian, and refuse to hear it and then go harass the actors for looking Inuit or Japanese *like they're supposed to,* then we can yell at them for being wrong. If they don't listen and reject it, now they're racist.
@@kemerydunn9532the eye colors were for bending purposes
I found the evidence you're looking for for Aang being inspired by Mike. In the first Korra art book for Book 1 Air on PG 98 there is a direct quote from Mike under Aang's design that reads: "It was fun, and also a little surreal, to imagine the characters from the old series all grown up. Everyone always assumes my bald head was the inspiration for Aang, so when it came time to draw forty-year-old Aang, Bryan took one look at my beard and worked it into the design. Maybe someday I'll look as tall and buff as Aang"
I also remember Bryan mentioned it again in a...I want to say fan-interview, that he took inspo from Mike's beard for Aang. This quote is much easier to find and verify than that old clip though.
I remember when I was a kid, going to USA was like my dream, now that I see these things I'll pass.
It's still a nice place to visit
I'm sorry, but I can't express how insane this video comes across. Accuracy of features in regard to a character of a certain race or ethnicity can (though shouldn't be forced upon an artist) add to immersion or relatability for said character, yes. But there isn't (nor should there be) a set standard or even outline for how a (especially fictional) multiracial person might look, because there isn't an exact one in life either. In the case of the Afro-Latin spectrum, they can range from looking like Miles Morales to looking like Luz Noceda. And for both, if someone didn't know they were multiracial, then someone would probably say he is just black and she is just Latina. But both designs would still be completely acceptable in regard to a reflection of real life people, the identity of multiracial people is a very varied and valid spectrum, and a very much similar notion can be said for people in general.
And in the case of a hyper-fictionalized character like Marcy, while the creators didn't know how far they were going to take her character. Her design can and does serve as a reflection of her actor, who is a multiracial black person. Olivia Olson's skin is not moonlight pale in real life because unlike Marcy she is not a literal half demon, who skin is only like that because said demon lineage doesn have an actual human skin tone. But she isn't the darkest person in real life either, this being most likely because like Marcy's dad, her dad isn't black. And Olson's hair (just like Marceline's) is straight in most of her real life appearances. As a black person myself, when I saw everything stays I wasn't shook, i just thought "Oh, ok cool". Because it didn't make Marceline any different, she was still just who she was, nor did her mother's racial reveal alter my opinion of her.
As for Avatar, I am not Asian. But when watching Korra, I never once thought Aang, Sokka, and Yakone were white during that flashback, as you said there is a very pale sepia filter over the flashback. This is the reason for Yakone's (and even sokka's) skin appearing lighter, Yakone in the flashback does have water tribe attire. So it's reasonable to say his skin color didnt change and that the only thing that did change from his facial reconstruction surgery... was the shape and structure of his face, along with him just growing his natural hair out. His sons Noatak and Tarrlok are more or less the same skin tone as their mother and father. But the real irony in this is, is that there is an example of skin dying. Which is with Amon/ Noatak, because as Amon his skin is much lighter than what it was when he was a child. But that can be attributed to the creators wanting the audience to think Amon is so far removed from being a water bender and that he is actually blood bending, after we saw his face. As for Aang and Sokka, as children they never really had nose bridges most of the time, because more of the non adult a characters didnt have them most of the time. To me Aang still looked like himself, just with a beard. And Sokka looked like a more mature version of himself and a bit like his father.
I think this video is at best misguided and at worst intentionally ignoring visible and tangible actualities.
Ngl, I thought Marceline was Asian. Even as Marshal Lee, they just gave off “Cool Asian vibes” to me, and I think that was because of Donald Glovers smooth voice
Same
I didn't even know she was supposed to be mixed and black till this video as I stopped watching it at the start of secondary school, not many seasons into it
I think you kinda forgot, that in the Fionna & Cake world (at least the one we see at the beginning) there's no magic, that's the reason Marshall's black black, cause he's 100% human, unlike Marceline
It's not a redesign, it's pretty much an au version of him
Kizazi moto is a real boost black culture and also shows what animation from the African continent can do, i appreciate it for the great use of folklore I know from growing up in south Africa and how its blended with sci-fi and fantasy
I need more!!!!
they're in a fantasy world so regarding of any skin color I don't think they should strictly represent any real world race or country?
Like, same with people wanting a black person in a fantasy world. They're black yeah, but they don't share the same history, struggles, and adversity as real people do. It's like their appearance matters more than their setting. I noticed this too like in Encanto. The family's Colombian but because Dolores looks black a lot of people are treating her as African American regardless of the story.
It's interesting how different the Gaang's facial features looked in the original pencil sketch concept art, compared to the final animation. It's a striking difference.
Marceline was made black after she was already designed, which really shows tbh. The demon genes really took over with her tbh, though at least it makes sense for her to look the way she does because she looks like a mix of her parents, but that mixture just ended up being white passing because her mother was mixed and her father was a literal chalk skinned demon. Part of it comes from the lack of noses in the artstyle though.
Marshal Lee though is more obviously black given that he has two human parents and not a chalk demon father, and I think the difference between vampire Marshall Lee and Human Marshall Lee is not "Being a demon makes your hair straight" but is rather just having a different parent.
I really wish that we got to see a photo or something of Marshall's dad in FaC 😭. Cause I wouldn't at all mind him still being mixed
@@Nani.101wait how would he still be mixed if Marceline’s mom was confirmed to be black, meaning that in Marshall Lee’s universe his father would also be black, making him fully black??
The problem with being racially specific is that artists run the risk of falling into stereotypes and just being racist, or being accused of being racist for the existence of common features.
Just wanna say, for your first video, you absolutely killed it. There is so much professionalism with your editing and takes, and I just gotta commend you for it 👏👏 Plus, this video topic is such a cool idea, I adored it!!
Ahhh thx 😭💜💜💜💜💜
Race and features don’t always go hand in hand. Simplifying things to “European nose” only holds us back, we are one species and features often overlap. There are Europeans especially in the east with slanted eyes. I’m Latino and have damn near white skin in the winter, my sister has pale skin and slanted eyes, and my little sister has dark skin with curly hair. It’s all over the place and it’s no different for people in such diverse countries like those east asia. I cannot speak for the design on the characters in avatar but I will say that I know Afro-Latinos like Luz and some asian people that don’t have stereotypical features like tan skin and thin slanted eyes.
As a mixed person (black-and-white/grey) there is something about this type of character. Whenever there is a racially ambiguous, they are usually never stated to be mixed or any particular ethnicity or race. And when they are stated to be mixed, they mostly focus on one side (usually the white side). It bothers me a bit because there could be focus on both and mixed people barely get talked about. It would have helped younger me not feel alone in a state that is very anti-mixed and racist. (I am so sorry for the weird language. It is 12:55 A.M., and I am not in a coherent sentence mood.) I hope I do not sound incoherent or anything, and I would like to know what anyone else thinks.
That made complete sense and you're right! I see it in shows and games a lot. My biggest pet peeve when creators make mixed characters, especially white-passing ones, and use them as a key to access a different ethnic culture without exploring what it actually means to be part of that culture. Or to use them and still manage to center their white peers (*cough* Best Month Ever! *cough*).
If I recall correctly, in Kipo, in the borough where her parents were from, the humans reproduce through cloning (though this would have been stated by the creator because it wasn't said in the show) and not through sex. So there is a chance that Kipo's human side isn't mixed Korean and Black, but may just be full on Korean by virtue of being a clone of her mom
I thought she was an IVF baby that got experimented on but she does look exactly like her mom.
I need to watch Kipo, because from what people are saying in the comments it's super cool and futuristic. Maybe I'll post what I think!
I'll have to rewatch, since I didn't realize that?
I’ve never heard that? Where’d you hear about cloning?
American perception of race is wild
Just wait till you get to Europe, they have shrimp colors level of racism
How does one accomplish representation when in a universe the ethnicities are totally unique? They may look similar to ethnicities we have in our world and describe them as “Asian” or “black” and whatnot, but their cultural heritage in the fictional world is totally different.
I agree in the scenario where a creator(s) is developing a world completely from scratch and creates their own races, cultures, etc (DnD for example). But when they're using real-life communities for references, plus being vocal about and celebrated for it (in the case of ATLA), it's frustrating to see them double down those references in future productions. Fiction and escapism are not without inspiration, and that inspiration should be honored!
@@Nani.101 Good insights! So in the case of the novel I am currently writing, I am drawing from some some Hebrew and Greek aspects of language and concepts for the worldbuilding. I'd like to think it is in a similar manner to that of DUNE which borrows from a number of real world cultures as well, or even ATLA which blends a number of real world cultures as well. However, as far as physical characteristics go, I have a variety of cast members who are written vaguely enough so as to not have any direct linkage to any real world ethnicities.
I'm still in the state of learning, and trying to improve my work, so would you have any advice on how to better execute the work? Thanks!
aang i can get but sokka is funny to me because i have 100% yupik uncles with those facial features
Amazing first video. I already want to hear more of your takes.
Not gonna lie, I was obsessed with Owl house. Never knew Luz was Afro-latina. I never know where the line should be though. I don't want characters to be stereotypes or have to do things to shout out their race, but I also don't want character I cant Identify with even though they are "technically" Black. I guess the solution is always more nuanced than something simple and binary. I don't think Luz having curly hair would change how I saw her, but from people's response I think it would have went a long way to impact their intended audience of representation.
I never knew what put me off about Aang and Sokka but something about their designs felt off to me. I think it is a combination of features like the noses and Korra seemingly putting alot more detail into adult faces that make them look completely different because maybe it's bias but the nose edit felt like a step in the right direction for me.
Genetics is a tricky thing. I once saw a video about a pair of twins with very different skin tones.
@@unruffledhomelander that's true, but it's like the "dumbledoor is gay" thing. if you never even knew, would you identify? Does that inform anything about the character? some people might look like luz and identify that way, but not specifically to her race.
its not about everyone being able to identify, its about if anyone would know luz is afro-latina.
Thats why i was worried about the stereotype thing. I hesitate to say Luz needs to be more obviously afro-latina because what does that mean? On the flipside though... If no one knows without being told, she might as well not be afro-latina as far as people care.
people don't need to be that telegraphed, but if your goal in a show is afrolatina representation, how can you get that across in their looks, culture, or mannerisms that people can latch onto?
"It's not about everyone being able to identify, it's about if anyone would know Luz is afro latina"
THANK YOU!! This was the exact point I was trying to make. Not that Luz looks wrong, or that there are not people who look like her and identify with her.
Labeling her as "afro" Latina was an active choice by the creators. So when you're not going to explore that identity within the story narrative (ex, Amphibia being very proactive about Anne's Thai identity), then you have no choice than to reflect it in the design of the character. Especially with such a simplistic style such as AT and TOH. I wouldn't have even included Luz in this video if she was *just* labeled as "Dominican" like her mom.
Idk about wanting to redesign characters of mixed race to look more like their races (hear me out). As a Thai-Canadian myself, I feel like racial ambiguity is apart of mixed sub-culture. Most of my friends are also of mixed race and I would never know what ethnicity they were until I became friends with them. Although the characters might not totally represent their cultures, I think they represent the mixed culture of not being like either.
Some people really need a life and this video shows it
Not to dismiss criticisms from a community I’m not a part of, but I do feel I should point out that in s3 of the Owl House, both Luz and Camila are shown with longer, kinkier/curlier hair, implying that they used to straighten it and this is actually it’s natural state. Not that this fixes the issue, but just worth noticing
Gotta say: All this talk about Characters that are racially ambiguous not being great representation seems hella racist to me. People really be out there saying that Half or Mixed ethnicity isnt reeeaaal representation and that it needs to be obvious at all times that the character is of X decent and only that is exactly the problem. The more you demand solid non-questionable racial conformity the more you need to lean into stereotypes and cliches for that group designwise to erase all doubts. Thats just not how a lot of world works, human beings are so much more than strict canvas of enforced rules on how to identify yourself to the one group you're allowed to be.
I know the issue of this video heavily revolves around american interpretation of racial identity, but America as a very diverse immigrant country doesnt reflect how people from very homogenous countries see these new character designs. Anytime I see an american complaining online that a characters skin tone isnt one shade dark enough to be POC I laugh. Because if that character were real they'd be 100% exculded from the very homogenous white, light skinned group where I grew up. If a characters desgin pisses as racist off, its enough.
Shut uppppp (in a nice way) I totally watched the video to the end, went back on parts I didnt agree with to give the arguments behind them a second chance and thought quite a bit on my comment. Maybe let people have an opinion and dont come in with said Micro Aggressions ;) @@starboy8571
I'm mixed my mums a black Tanzanian woman who immigrated before i was born, my dad is a white German man. I look white. white as fuck, my skin isn't dark. My hair is curly but not that. But i do share most of my features with her. For me personally i love to see mixed characters that aren't always visibly mixed. But i also know its important for mixed raced characters to look actually mixed sometimes. My sister looks mixed, very stereotypically mixed. There's just such a vast scale of how us mixed folk look, It's hard to find the right balance. I just wish media could find a balance with "my only personality traced is I'm mixed" and "I don't care my culture and mixed-ness". It's a topic that needs alot more attention to be honest.
one thing I would like to add, is that in the background of the owl house, her mum (Luz's) had a hair straightener in the bin, and before the return to the human world, she was shown to have straight hair, I seen some people suggest this might be because before the team found out about the three episodes instead of a proper season, they would touch on this, we see that Camilla wanted Luz to be less "weird" because of her own trauma from bulling, so perhaps in a proper third season the creators would cover the fact that Camilla has been straightening her hair (and even Luz's?? since her longer hair is curler in the time skip) to seem less Black to prevent farther discrimination. I personally see Luz's blackness, and had a hutch she might be black cause I'm from a trini/Melanesian household, so my family has a large varity of hair textures, I sort of assumed we would see a aunt of her or something with more black features, great video, I am loving it!
wow this being your first video is so crazy it’s so professional and well done you’re clearly in your element here!!
I loved this video, very entertaining and informative! On the topic of fandom reactions it always makes me giddy when artists expand and improve on character's design which you can definitely see in artists who draw Luz and especially Marceline with more clearly textured hair and ethnic facial features.
STOP this is your first video? Omg i love it i assumed you've been doing youtube for a while, i love your pacing and your personality
Omg right like WHAT
Hope this blows up for you very well made like it's your 100th video essay. Loved the scary movie reference lol
Yall got me cheesing from these comments 😭 thanks for all the love! I'm very excited for the next video I've been brainstorming
👏let's
👏do
👏blood quantum
👏on people's drawings!
great first video! I was recommended it and was surprised to hear those words come out of your mouth lmao it was already so good i had to do a double take lmao!
I'm half black/half mexican and I wish more mixed black characters looked more black personally. Not that all mixed ppl have to look a certain way but like...? They don't look like Me. Luz esp is disappointing for me being a mixed afro latino, I would have been happier with her being only latina in that case so i wouldn't feel so disappointed. plus i think people are starting to use "they're mixed" as a lazy excuse to not try to design black characters with black features because the lack of them can be explained away with being mixed. like sure we can look any way, but that means we should show ALL the ways a mixed person can look, not just the light skinned, wavy/straight hair look
as a kid I would always find myself drawn to both the ambigious or latino coded AND the black characters in a squad, so that meant I liked both teresa AND christie, yasmin AND sasha, Irma AND taranee etc lol and I would feel a little more like the black character was For me and I could relate, I could style my hair like that and play pretend to be them, but since I was lighter skinned I would wish the lighter brown character would look more like me too, since I always felt like i was kinda fooling myself into thinking yasmin could also be for me for example. esp bc mean classmates would make it clear that characters like Yasmin weren't For Me :/ like sure if i straightened my hair I could look more like those characters but still!
I also noticed that like... these black/mixed black girl characters are more likely to be ambigious looking? and have straighter hair too
Like Luz vs Gus, I know she's mixed but why doesn't she get to have curls? or like Marceline vs Marshal lee.
Marshal gets to have locs, marceline has straight hair. And her mom having straighter hair as well. then marshal lee's mom in fionna in cake was a cool surprise and shes a total babe, and she has gorge dark skin, but her sleek hair becomes more noticeable to me after seeing this pattern. I don't think it was purposeful, esp in adventure time's case, i get the feeling they really have been trying to make sure people know marceline and her family are black this time. but it is a bit unfortunate, so i hope we get to see marceline herself with cute black hairstyles in the fionna and cake sequel
How can i like a comment 50 times?
If someone started a network just showing skin colour in the USA, they'd be rich. That's all americans seem to focus on when watching something. Forget the plot! The skin of the characters is where the real entertainment is 😅.
It’s fascinating, isn’t it? What kind of child gives a flying fuck about what particular shade of brown the cartoon characters are? It never even occurred to me, or anyone I knew.
@toltottkaposzta6427 I used to be a school librarian. A lot of kids were sensitive and asked for books about little girls and boys who looked like them, or had culture they could relate to. I spent a good portion of my time seeking and curating materials that made them feel "normal" and not "other". It's important.
Also, goodness, the pinned comment from this creator has preemptively addressed this "point". A month ago. Yeesh
@@withelisa That's the sad point. Nowhere else will you have this happen. I grew up in the library, my nose buried deep in books. I've loved to read since I was a young. I grew up reading Sherlock Holmes, The Hardy Boys, The Famous 5, Nancy Drew, Goosebumps, Narnia and Fear Street Saga.
Guess what I have in common with Sherlock Holmes? Take your best guess? As a 10 year old balck African girl, what did I have in common with Sherlock Holmes?
The reason these kids were asking you this is because they're being taught about skin colour before they're even taught how to count or do their ABC's.
My cousin loved Bruce Lee growing up, he was doing karate chops all over the House. Guess what he had in common with Bruce Lee? My mom loved Mr Tee from the A team, guess what she had in common with him?
Skin color doesn't make a good story. I got so much into Harry Potter at 12years old. Guess what we had in common? He's an orphan, white, a boy, a wizard ... all the things I was not. Yet I was the first at the book store when each book came out. Imagine all the stories, world's, adventure, fun and people I would have missed had I dismissed books that had characters that didn't look like me? I still have my Through the Looking glass and The little Prince books from when it as young, at 33 years old I still love them so much.
What you as a librarian are witnessing is sad! Absolutely heartbreaking how these kids are limiting themselves, and missing out amazing stories just because of their skin colour. I can't think of anything more tragic as an avid reader. I knew of the world before I even had my first passport. I knew of Europe, of Asia or America. All through the books I read. So many cultures and customs I learned. That's something the kids you mentioned will never know.
@@toltottkaposzta6427 that's the thing , no child does. You'll never hear kids complain about it unless the adults push it on them to do so. It's like they have skin color swashes on hand when ever they watch something. Growing up, I loved being the yellow ranger, I never asked to be Asians. I just wanted more yellow clothes which I nagged my parents for. 😅
On the topic of Legend of Korra and its poor designs for the Gaang, I thought adult Sokka and Katara were too pale. Even new characters like Tenzin and Bumi literally just look like a white guys despite their mixed Asian & Inuit heritage. I liked Korra but the whitewashing of designs and the world really frustrated me along with its character writing - e.g. Katara was literally reduced to Aangs wife and a healer even though that wasn’t her main forte in the OG and we literally never see or hear what happened to Sokka. Ugh. Great video either way and the presentation was really well put together!
That is such nonsense. Katara literally has dark skin. And it's racist of you to say that Tenzin and Bumi "look white" simply because they don't have any stereotypical facial features.
Also, Katara was not "reduced" to anything. ATLA literally ended with her and Aang becoming a couple. And when couples get married, the woman becomes a wife. That's not bad writing. That's just how marriage works. And why should her "main forte" from ATLA stay with her for the rest of her life? Are you saying Katara should not be allowed to retire from fighting during a peaceful era? And we did see Sokka in the series. It was revealed that he became the Chief of the Southern Water Tribe and a member of the Republic City Council and then it's implied he died protecting Korra from the Red Lotus shortly after her discovery.
@@vetarlittorf1807bestie, please take 5 hours to 1 week to ruminate over the connotations of you saying : "when couples get married the woman becomes a wife"
It's giving "dishwashHER "
@@Sh12pen Why? It's common knowledge that a couple becomes husband and wife when they get married.
I don't make the rules.
Katara wasn’t “reduced to Aangs wife and a healer”. She retired and serves as a healer because she’s 84 years old at the start of the show lol. And we know that she served on the council because they said she banned bloodbending in the Yakone courtroom flashback.
@@sofakingdom5806they really need to stop with that. Katara accomplished so much in her lifetime and she’s literally 80+ years old in LoK. Like sorry this senior citizen isn’t on the battle field??
Thank you SO MUCH for this video!!! When I tell you, the plate was set down and I could do nothing more but devour ever bit of it. Your video is nuanced, emotionally intelligent, kind, funny, and overall incredible!!!! I truly appreciate the atmosphere of talking with your cousins about shit going on in the world. You, my dear, are a gem and I can’t wait for more of your content!
LOL I was today years old when I learned Marceline is supposed to be mixed.
Loved the video! Was exciting to see the shout out to the facebook group! I didn't see your post but I'm in there so I was very happy that YT recommended this to me.
Aayyye wassup blerd fren!
15:18 The concept of blackness is a very American term. To people who were not born in North America, the idea that you can boil down their entire ethnicity to a basic American concept of what it means to be born with African descent may of course feel regressive to them. Aside from that, I really liked this video and what it had to say about how people depict people of color.
I partially agree! Which is why I included sources specifically from Dominican voices rather than American ones. The modern idea of Blackness is definitely a very western one, but to think that it's not an important discussion regarding other parts of the world can be dismissive of the people who are at the harmed end of it. For example, colorism is talked about all over the world, but lots of opinions on darker skin are rooted in anti-Blackness due to the history of how African-descended have been treated.
And regarding Luz specifically, it would be one thing if she was just labeled "Dominican" like her mom. Since not all Dominicans are Black/have African descent, it would be hard to label her in any particular way. But since she *is* labeled "Afro-Latina" that means she does have African Descent, which would make her mixed with Black from her mother's side (since her father's description makes no mention other than "Latino").
Ok I gotta say....I LOVED THIS VIDEO. Your editing phenomenal,the humour had me cackling, and the facts were facting😎
You had me from the scary movie + orange blossom redesign reference 🖤 I had to pause and literally went like...."what???" When you said this was your FIRST VIDEO. Please keep it coming!!
You're the first person to catch the reference! Cause that redesign was abysmal
Girlll I'm so excited for you to upload more!! This is an AMAZING first upload!! I'm also a poc girl who loves animation and your discussion on these topics are so so needed!!
Just want to express appreciation for this video essay. I'm gonna be looking for more of your videos in the future!
I was shocked to see your subscriber number when I scrolled down, this has such high production value!
As for my two cents on Aang's grown up design, I could go on for hours.. the dude has been a staunch vegetarian from arguably his BIRTH, and yet he grows up to be taller than everyone else, with this amount of lean muscle mass, no less? And even if he did copy Sokka's eating habits, Aang should've grown up to look like his fellow monks, like Monk Gyatso.. young Monk Gyatso looks a lot like Aang which makes the design decisions in Korra just extremely weird..
I come from a streaming background, and I've always loved video editing and info dumping so I'm glad its paid off! ❤
And wow, I didn't even consider Aang's diet when thinking about his design! He looks like he's been eating meat and potatoes his whole life
Def agree with a lot of your points here! I would push back a little on Luz mostly because the history of colonialism and forced miscegenation in Latin America means that kids like Luz are actually super common! Many people in Latin America, especially people with mixed racial backgrounds, which is a large majority of Latin Americans, are only really attached to their national identity detached from the realities of race in our countries of origin. Not because they don't exist or aren't noticeable, but because we're actively discouraged from talking about it.
The Spanish and Portuguese imperial governments had a couple periods of actively trying trying to intermix people throughout Latin America in order to whiten the population, this is what people are referring to when they talk about Blanqueamiento. So because of a conflation with a colonial national identity, national governments that are usually run by white/light skinned elites commonly will push for a sense of unified national identity and nationalism to attempt to assimilate people of color into the colonial society to eventually breed them out and strengthen the state. It's one of the more insidious long terms colonial strategies for genocide in Latin America with a long historical precedent!
Haiti and the DR are a particularly violent case of this where generally Dominicans are lighter skinned than people from Haiti due to their generally more sympathetic attitudes towards white supremacy (and stronger genetic ties/historical memory to colonizers). That being said, people from nations in and around the Caribbean tend to have a significantly higher amount of African ancestry because of the Transatlantic Slave Trade. So people from the Caribbean Islands (including the DR), despite also upholding a lot of white supremacy, may also significantly identify with their African ancestry (and identify as afro-Latine) and have more "racially ambiguous" features purely because populations in those areas have been significantly, forcibly, and violently mixed (and many young diaspora children fully disconnected from this history don't realize this and only really connect with the Spanish language and traditions that have been forcibly imposed).
There's def a lot of people who are more immediately racialized as indigenous or afro-latine, but my thought is maybe they were trying to depict a typical mixed child of immigrants who doesn't really know much about her history and is actively kept from the knowledge of it. I'm a mestize peruvian person with indigenous and spanish ancestry so my perspective is def limited by that, so def open to reevaluating my position!
Edit: I ALSO WILL SAY! Either Luz or her mom def would have commented on the fact that Belos being a puritan, pilgrim, colonizer-type and it ABSOLUTELY should have raised a red flag to one or both of them!
Banger for your FIRST video
(It’d be great for any video but for your first this level of quality is rare)
ngl, having this be your first yt video is actually insane, the editing, scriptwriting, and overall quality is great. I genuinley thought I was watching some ancient ytber whos mastered their craft. Great vid and Good takes
Gurl there are black ppl w naturally str8 hair-
In defense of Luz’s character design there are definitely Dominicans who do not appear to have as many African features, so it would make sense that a Dominican woman with the appearance the show has shown has a kid that doesn’t reflect her African genes. Not trying to say that she shouldn’t have any at all, I think curly hair would have definitely helped.
Just saying that certain traits don’t get passed down, especially when both parents have different genetic compositions. I speak from personal experience lol
Such a fun and insightful first video! Especially appreciated how this criticism is clearly intended as both a celebration of great efforts and a dialogue toward even better 💖 Ready for all flavor of shenanigans to come 😃
thank you so much for this video, it was super enjoyable and educational. i think it might be time to revisit a few of my character designs
So happy CZcams recommended me this, when I clicked on the video I thought you have 100 k followers! Great video
Ahhh I appreciate you! 100K is the goal, but it's nice to see the steady increase.
I loved this video so much!!!! I loved all the bullet points and I 100 % would loved to see your perspectives on black representation in anime shows as well. Also I would like to clarify that from the intro alone I left a like for the video but after getting the meat of the video and the cherry on top that was you supporting Season: A Letter To The Future, you have yourself a full time subscriber. I can't wait to see what comes next.
YEEESSSSS a fellow Season lover!!!! I was thinking about following this up with a video of my favorite examples of representation, and I want to include that game.
@@Nani.101 I would to love to hear it. Your perspectives are very interesting and I can't wait for the next. I'm staying tuned.💜💜💜
Very good as a first video! I look forward to seeing more as time goes on, as I've been meaning to have a more diverse subscription pool anyways. Here's hoping I learn more as a character writer.
Omg!! I love this video! I'm a big fan of representation in animation, I'm a chubby autistic person and I squeal with happiness whenever I see bigger and neurodivergent characters. I'm always so eager to listen to peoples of color perspectives on this as well and I appreciate your voice so much! It helps me learn about experiences I'm not a part of and be more aware. I hate seeing how whiteness seems to be the "non race" or the "default" race coming from shows made in very diverse countries like the US, I can't wrap my head around how they keep doing and getting away with this. I would love to watch a show where all characters are non-white, do you have any examples?
It also feels like an incredibly well made video considering this is your first upload! I had a great time watching and I hope to see more!!
a small concern tho: you left the facebook group portion non-censored and I worry about the privacy of the commenters, especially since they wrote the comments in a private group. Idk if at this point that's something you can change, or even if the people included mind, but that was something I thought of.
I was thinking about the comment names too! 😅 I couldn't figure out a way to cover them without covering parts of their comments, or dragging block-boxes frame by frame. I posted the upload in the group after, and luckily no one seemed to mind. But I gotta figure out a solution for the future!
I definitely recommend the series Kazazi Moto I shares. Black Lightning is blast (live action). Arcane isn't all poc, but wow the character designs are some of the best I've seen.
I think that what most people want to see is a non-ambiguous character that is just BLACK with a capital B. Not light skinned, C3 hair, and no missing black parent (if the other one lives...theyre always white/brown but not black.). I think racially ambiguous characters are great, I think that the problem is is that they replace black identities in favor of a white audience who don't think shows with black main characters are "for them". For example, Garnet's awesome...but she's a side character that provides aid to a white characters (multiple white characters) and although she may be considered everyone's "favorite" i think white people love what she can do for Steven, and not necessarily what she represents for herself (natural leadership, empathy, struggling with identity and what the could possibly mean for black audiences. I know white people can't relate necessarily but we could still relate to Mulan who is not white black OR American.). Garnet is the classic mamie trope if you will.
I wish there were more shows where the main character is Bratz doll Sasha black, or have variations of that. They speak aave or have diasporic accents, they are still adventurous but they're not "white knighting" to appear to be a boring goodie two shoes like the main character from WISH. Just a regular cartoon about a regular black person and we can say "yes they are undeniable, most definitely, black. No "guessing games" and no arguments over "subtext" if something was "black enough". it was a black person on the screen that did it therefore it's black enough lol. They are blackitty-black.
ALSO there are different black ethnicities. It would be wonderful to see different black cultures other than American. There are literally black Frenchmen/women Haitians, Jamaicans, Irish-folks. We can literally spice storytelling up if we diversify cultural backgrounds too instead of always making sure this character is black enough for the representation quota but white enough to win an award during the Annies.
TLDR; We need more characters that are just Black along with mixed identities and ethnicities. Stop replacing black identities with mixed identities as a way to appease to anti-black audiences. These non mixed AND mixed identities are naturally different and should be explored, but no in place of replacing blackness.
Ouuuuu you might stir up some feathers with that Garnet analysis and I LOVE IT
Yes! It’s the replacement that’s the issue. A way to make blackness more palatable that’s the issue. Love this
The hard part about having an alternate universe version of marceline and have her interact with the other characters is she needs to be half demon to live long enough to meet them. Marshal Lee can be human with Fiona and came because he’s based on a fan fiction so the timeline doesn’t apply, marceline can’t exist at the same time as basically any character besides Simon without having her original design. I think we could get a glimpse at her from prismos room or in a kind of flashback episode where there’s no magic, probably not for long though
I agree that she would have to remain a demon if we want to continue seeing her in the current context that we do. But that's why I asked if being a demon automatically makes your hair straight, and more specifically *why*? Lol can't she be a demon with her pale skin and pointy ears and still have locs like Marshall? Or at least have some curls? The only indication of Hunson Abadeer's hair structure us that he has a lil corporate slick back. But that can be achieved with any hair texture with enough gel and patience lol
Though I would love to see an AU where magic doesn't exist. I saw some fan art on tiktok a while back where Simon and Betty adopted Marci, and it was SO CUTE!
Great stuff!
I'm also working in the industry and have seen a lot of these dynamics over the years. Great to hear your take on it!
67k views in a month on your first video is a crazy achievement. Congratulations and great video!
At 24:30 in the video Nani 101 says she likes Zaheer’s character design for an older air nomad, implying the character doesn’t look white but more asian…but Zaheer’s character design is just an animation take on Henry Rollins (who’s VERY white) I think this speaks to how animation tends towards ambiguity which could be considered a strength of the genre.
That said I support what Nani 101 is saying in that there could/should be more unambiguous representation of diversity in animation especially when character elements are inspired by real world peoples.
I am curious how one determines the line between representing diversity and stereotypes, ignoring the extremes it would seem to be a fuzzy line that moves based on context and audience?
This made me think of a great video someone made several years ago about how to westerners anime characters look white, but to most Japanese people they look Japanese.
It also makes me think about the whole discussions about whether Jet from Cowboy Bebop is black or white or Japanese…
I think SOMETIMES it’s kind of nice to have the characters ambiguity as it allows more people to see themselves in the character and a wider variety of voice actors to give life to the character.
I also wonder what Nani 101 thinks regarding the Kubo and the Two Strings controversy.
Full disclosure: I’m a straight white man in my late 30’s. So my point of view is definitely influenced by that. My questions and comments are genuine, I’m not trying to troll.
This is an incredible essay :) Love seeing my pals making this kind of amazing content. Can't wait for the next one ♥️
I feel inspired to work on my own projects now, too!! We should collaborate at some point, maybe once I get an essay of my own out 😆😭
Making this was so fun, so I wanna help in any way I can!
no cuz i love your vibe so much, i would love to watch more of your videos, this was very entertaining
I'm white AF, and raised in s predominantly asian neighbourhood. I truly had no idea marceline was black, I even cosplayed her once (using blue/grey paint) because I always just assumed. I think more representation is so important. Seeing adult Aang and Sokka was so weird; they truly did not feel like the adult versions to me. I also felt that a lot of the ethnic aspects seemed to be "softened" in favour of more broad typically european features. Obviously Eurasia allows for a broad range of ethnicities to represent and be represented.
I'm not sure I could say that adult Aang and adult Sokka are NOT asian, however they don't look like adult versions of themselves from the last airbender, and Sokka as you pointed out has aged HORRIFICALLY.
The amount of collagen that Sokka would eat from all the seal meat and other meats he no doubt continued to eat for his entire life; his skin should be as supple as a babies bottom! Not to mention; Sokka was always at least slightly lighthearted and silly. Even in the heat of battle he would be cracking jokes. This adult Sokka looks like he hasn't laughed once in his life.
Aang I just don't like his design; I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with it - I just feel like the character of Aang needs to look at least SOMEWHAT childlike? Like we see that he still does the marble trick, so we know that Aang still jokes around, but his character design just doesn't convey this at all.
Toph was ruined, making the blind bandit into the police?? I could see her being a vigilante maybe, but Toph Bei Fong, the Blind Bandit, the creator of metal bending, the Melon Lord, decided to start enforcing law and order on other people as its' leader??
Katara was perfect no comments.
Toph becoming a cop of all things BLEW ME!!! I would expect her to get into something like architectural accessibility design, or continuing as a metal bending teacher.
@@Nani.101 I honestly would have believed it if she opened a metal bending school deep in the mountains that was incredibly difficult to get to, and was all mysterious and deadly to the outside world like the Dai Lee kinda except within the group she calls herself the melon lord and it's actually a really chill temple where yes the really powerful benders train in metal bending, but that is mostly just a bunch of people having fun and enjoying life. Think monk Gyatso or Iroh style mentorship.
No one believed Katara would genuinely prefer toddler looking Aang over guys like Jet or Zuko so they made him look like a Chad in TLOK
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But Zuko was with Mai and Jet is literally dead???
I think this is a very well thought out video. As a heads up, a lot of Latinos seem to think racism is unique to the US, but statistics will tell you it's just as much of an issue everywhere in Latam, it just doesn't look the same as in the US. Indigenous people are still fighting for their lands and some even fighting active repression like the Mapuche in Chile.
This as such a fun and informative video! As a black girl myself, it's great seeing someone with a similar background highlight these stuff in the media we love!
i fully expected you to already be an established youtuber, this is a great debut! excited to see more of your stuff.