John rants against narrow minded dogma in High End Audio. Tubes Vinyl Devon Turnbull Altec Quad Kef
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- čas přidán 2. 07. 2022
- John DeVore asks: What is High End Audio? Who gets to be gatekeeper? Do they even understand what it is? And who cares?
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Amen! I brought up replicating his bookshelf speakers on a FB DIY site I was vilified by several old-timers who'd never heard of OJAS or Devon Turnbull. They simply couldn't conceive that someone could build a speaker without an engineering degree and 25 years of experience. I pointed out that the drivers and design were out in the public space and about as reproducible as a design gets and they wouldn't hear it. Just today I found a video of someone who did it without buying his now unavailable kits and they sound just as amazing as you'd think they would. Our 15-year-old wants to go to NYC for spring break and I think I'm going to take them to the OJAS listening room.
I went to his museum show and listened close up, I'd love to have a system like that
@BicycleJoeTomasello I went to his listening room in NYC and was lucky enough to meet him as he was teaching his new assistant how to run the room. I think with time and ingenuity can get close to his amps and speakers. It's those vintage Technics turntables that really break the bank. I didn't even ask what cartridges he had
I'm 70 years old and just discovered tube amps two years ago. I've been in musical nirvana ever since. I stream most of my music thru audirvana studio , but also listen to vinyl. It all goes thru my Linear tube audio preamp into my Decware Zen triode into my DIY open baffle speakers. I just ordered a pair of Quicksilver monos [ 25 watts ] . I have never heard any music sound this good my whole life. My two cats [ Ghirardelli and Maggie Mae say HI ]
Ronnie...can you point me toward the DIY speakers you made( or bought) thanks
@@galessi1226 the first pair I made are 12 in. Vintage Zenith alnico drivers from 1963. The last ones are Lii Audio F15 drivers ( $450 ) including shipping. Both pair sound great, but I actually like the vintage ones the best. They have a little less bass, but much more detail. Don’t discard old drivers from the 50’s and 60’s. They were all driven by low watt tube amps and usually sound great.
Bravo Brother John ! An open mind never causes harm. Closed minds do.
I’m so glad I found this video. Turns out I was treated to this kind of Western Electric low powered high sensitivity system. It was in a smaller room too. It was glorious. The speakers were restored Klipschorns and the amp was a SET with 845 tubes with a beautiful VPI turntable. I barely remember because the music was SO involving. Image was front and center and the everything was just so good. Changed my mind about amps needing to be high powered.
The whole “everybody in their own foxhole defending their dogma with fixed bayonets” is utterly exhausting and frustrating. Thanks for fighting the good fight, John.
The interesting about the foxhole culture is its immunity to reason, which for the sound and the systems John refers to, means many of those *other* foxholes - LS50 et al - are actually working directly against the "science" they think they're on about.
The most important aspects of high end sound never make it to the microphones of these people, much less their commentary.
Rock on!
I just ordered a pair of Gibbon Super Nines. I bought them after spending the last year considering many, many speakers. In the end it came down to a couple things: 1) I like you, John. Besides being a great speaker designer, you are kind, sincere and honest, and I appreciate that. 2) It seems like people own and keep their DeVore speakers for a long time because they are beautiful, and because they allow them to engaged with the music.
I can't wait to get my speakers and spend many years listening to music through my system that consists of both tubes and solid state, and both vinyl and digital.
Thank you Keith!
John, it's simple - there are those who listen to music and those who prefer to brawl on forums/social media. The former will make do with whatever gear they have at any given point in time as long as they can listen to music whether its in their car / from their phone or at home, and the latter will never be happy with anything that doesn't measure up to the standards of their respective echo chambers. I find exactly the same schism in every hobby/obsession dominated by males - esp watches, audio and cars. Thanks for the video.
Those cafes in Japan you mentioned are amazing.
I recommend bar Martha in Ebisu (Tokyo). No photos or loud talking allowed, the staff will approach you. Anyone looking for a quiet drink and serene music experience should check it out.
Always so appreciate your perspective. I'm so looking forward to hearing your speakers some day should we ever get a quality show back on the west coast.
Fantastic video. Wish I could hit like more than once! Need a much extended commentary on this topic. D.T. and his work is the win! You bringing these specific subjects together, and the Japanese hifi tradition references, I've only found here. Will watch this a third time at some point
Love the video-the joy high efficiency and fleawatt tube amps are giving me is unparalleled. That doesn’t mean solid state is bad. I’ve great respect for both topologies. Btw, love your t-shirt!! I want one!
It's like our pal JC always says, "There are 164 perfect ways to anything." (I think he learned that from Ornette Coleman)
Music & Music Playback Gear = Natural & Unavoidable Dissonance. 👍Great vid.
I very much respect you for remaining so composed in the face of such bigotry. Personally, I think that - for the most part - technological progress in audio has been much more in the service of profits than sound quality. Transistors came to be, not because they were better in absolute terms, but because they were cheaper to produce at scale than tubes. Same story with CDs. Yet, although I prefer tubes over transistors and vinyl over CD, I would never belittle anyone for going the opposite direction, for as you said: there are different paths to musical enjoyment. Again, hats off to you. Love your channel.
It is interesting that I don't recall seeing vinyl and tube people mock the specs only people for their choices. I guess really good music just mellows some people :)
Love the channel man.
John 👋🏼,
I’m new to the channel & subscribed ✌🏼 glad to hear that an audiophile can be someone who doesn’t always enjoy something that someone else loves but can respect someone else’s subjective choice 👌🏼👍🏼👌🏼
Thank you John. This needed to be said and your passion is undeniably genuine. Your voice is very much appreciated.
Thank you for this highly necessary video, best John! God bless you, sir!
An awful lot of audiophiles have lost the plot, that audio systems are enjoyment engines. If you don't enjoy listening, what's the point? To have the majority of your system be on some recommended list somewhere or be "technically accurate" according to certain laboratory tests? My rule is as follows - if a change to my system makes me want to listen to more of my music or more often it's "good", if it makes me want to listen to less of my music or less often it's "bad". I think it's a pretty good litmus test. By the way, I love the happy kitty purring on your lap throughout the video, I'd love to hear your speakers someday.
audiophiles are never the problem, those are just the people that enjoy audio the most.
you are talking about some other group of people. non audio related in that way
"My rule is as follows - if a change to my system makes me want to listen to more of my music or more often it's "good", if it makes me want to listen to less of my music or less often it's "bad"."
So very well said! I often find the differences there can take some time to discover too.
I integrated with your bits and bytes in a very warm and glowing way which made me feel organic while still retaining my solid state... 🥂☮️ Great rant
I really enjoyed visiting your shop and interviewing you. Plus you have a nice stash of old yamaha receivers 😊
Thank you for that video blog, Mr. DeVore, and hitting the nail on the head with a much needed message here. I would only repeat trying to comment any further what you've already put so eloquently, but suffice to say I come from using the same-ish segment of speakers advocated by Mr. Turnbull, that is to say borderline vintage, large horn-based and very high efficiency theater main speakers and horn subs in my home environment, and I've been confronted with the narrowminded sentiment you're describing - ad nauseam, even. So, therefore: thank you again for your views here and opening up the concept of high-end audio to a larger "canvas" of approaches that makes no effort to exclude named segment of speakers (or tube amps and turntables) and their accompanying sound presentation.
John, I absolutely agree with you. And by the way, I greatly enjoy your eloquence, your clarity, and certainly, your knowledge.
Great comments and observations John!
You really nailed it! Congrats John. I would like to see more people to enjoy whatever "tool" in the way it was meant by itself and not just by its price, reputation or show off/marketing.
Fantastic stuff!
Nice video, thanks!
"The purpose of high end audio bring an immersive experience of music to a listener in their home." Well said!
unhappy audiophiles have just one problem they've stopped listening to the music & listen to the system instead.
Great rant video! This is true. The tribalism in hi-fi is really discouraging to many; your thoughts on this issue gave me additional motivation/inspiration to continue my journey. This passion for audio and music is something really enriching. Thanks for reminding us. 🙏
Brings me back to the mid-70's-80's with a few people I knew giving block parties with high efficient speakers that you could hear blocks away without distortion.. ✌
Great talk
I bought my Quad Esls in 1974
They are a compromise- as you say - but the gains outweigh the losses and they do reflect whatever equipment they are set up with very well - within their limits
Well said, John. There are exceptional components both in the digital and analog realms. My philosophy is that whatever let's you get lost in the music is the one that is best for you. The trick is being open to things outside of your experience level. When I've done that myself, I've often discovered some true musical magic! Thanks again for another insightful video!
I enjoyed this video. I like your non-dogma attitude and style and what Devin did to share the enjoyment of music with more people of all kinds. Thank you.
To quote an expression from the 70's, "Right On" John... "Right On"!
Great points, John! About a year ago, I was watching a video on Audiophiliac about Devon, and I noticed his little orange and black speaker cables running everywhere. I did a little research and learned they were the good ol' Belden 9497 speaker wire. I purchased a few runs from Tuneful Cables - OJAS was sold out - and was blown away by what they did for my system - First Watt J2 and full range high-efficiency drivers. Indeed, old time-honored technology is one that should be respected.
You're spot on John,just been to Devon's exhibition in UK and love what he's doing❤👍
This video is in perfect timing for me because I just had an "audiophile" poo poo 💩 my vintage Pioneer SX receivers saying that I can't get "state of the art sound" from a vintage setup. Not sure what that means 😂
Ive listened to so many different systems. My go to speakers are my Kanto Tuks. I have Cornwall 4s, B&W, Luxman, Mcintosh, etc. But when I'm up in my office working, its these Tuks that I listen to the most while I work. I love them. They sound great from such an obscure speaker. I could care less what anyone says.
100% agreed. ... Of the amplifiers I have owned, there are three that have brought me much joy: Bogen RP230 receiver (no longer owned,) DECware SE840UFO and Atoll IN100SE. They are not only different types and topologies, but convey different experiences, but all very enjoyable. I am currently waiting for completion of the restoration of a Sansui TU-717 AM/FM tuner - "obsolete" technology but when it is up to spec and fed a good signal, the sound is glorious and nearly always "better" than streaming.
Wow…tubes and vinyl was the killer on the vid, huh? I guess my main method of musical reproduction is pretty much foolish if I had that guy’s thoughts. Devon is a very interesting guy from what I’ve seen on Steve’s channel. Would’ve loved to been at that show. I love Devon’s way of listening and approach to HiFi. It’s always good when people who don’t know this stuff even exists finally hear a system like that. A few of my friends have thankfully started their journey, and I’ve had the pleasure of helping them set up a system. Very gratifying. Thanks, John. Fantastic vid. 🔊🎶👍🙂
Love this guy as he’s hands on and in the mix and is passionate about this. Puts a face to a beautiful brand
Sometimes you have to take a different path to learn what else is there. Personally, I have been inspired by People like You and Steve. Steves and Denon's love for bigger and more dynamic speakers got me thinking that I might be missing something. Ever since I was a teenager I lusted over Altecs and LaScalas. I am now constructing some large dynamic horn loaded speaker of my own.
John, thank you for helping us to remember the origins of "High Fidelity" audio systems. Low watt vacuum tube amplifiers, coupled with "Efficient" horn speakers. 1950-1960 style.
Amen, brother. I’ve learned over the years that my ears and brain prefer low powered amps pushing efficient, dynamic speakers. Good one, John. Thanks.
Completely agree, physical media and analogue equipment are just simply and incredible experience to interface with music. I believe something could also be said about the ritual of physical media, it’s quite relaxing
Thanks John, well said.
Well brought to the point! TX John!
To me, high end audio begins when you start thinking that you would enjoy your music more if it sounded better, and you start taking steps to get to better sound. Even if it's something as simple as upgrading from cheap headphones to 99 dollar headphones, it's a start. If you don't care what you listen to music on, you're not yet into high end. ANY desire to step it up a notch is a step up the high end pathway. Even the first step matters. I took that first step, back in 1996. Now I'm about a tenth of the way up that VERY long path. And don't have the money to go much farther.
I agree with you totally and as a former owner of tubes Fisher and solid state , love klipsch Heritage speakers , altecs
Thanks John, well put, and please don’t feel any remorse about a ‘rant’…it’s nothing compared many of the knuckleheads out there these days.
We’re living in a great time for music: vinyl is being purchased again and being appreciated. Digital can sound great if you tweak your system a bit…and I’m personally also loving streaming from Tidal on various Bluetooth speakers- which are kinda like headphones in that you can buy them relatively cheaply and enjoy a variety should you want to. Fun wow!
Love your channel and your calm, intelligent point of view. Please keep it going, and enjoy a good rant whenever you feel the need.
Cheers
A fantastic vid!
And yes, 🐶🐂💩 is often 🐶🐂💩 when there is implied 💵 intermixed w/ some but not all "product review"!
Good stuff 👍
Good one
Sir your correct I still have a dyna 70 and a pas 3 my first system I love it still and like you stated it's the music not the format.cheers peace
Nice video
Well said John. Its about the Music.
Thank you for addressing this issue
I love the shirt, John..
Right on bro 🎉🎉
Thanks..I get it and agree.
I want more tubes in my life!
Yes this… in all things! Strong message!!!
Well said, john. I agree with you that, as long as you enjoy your music, that can't be wrong. No matter what system you have, tube ore solid state, and how much it costs. I recently bought a small vintage technics SU-Z15 amp at the fleemarket. Just to try it out, I paired with a Denon DP15F record player I had in my cellar cabinet to restore one time. I sat down with my headphone, played the first record, and was blown away how good this improvised system sounded! So I played a lot of records this evening. My records never sounded better!
my modest system gives lots of listening pleasure Marantz cd 5005 Denon pma 355 uk & Wharfedale diamond 9.1 with Wharfedale diamond sw150 sub.
Great rant John, totally agree with all aspects and topics. I really like Ojas from the first time I was introduced to him by Steve Gutenberg on his CZcams show. I found more similarities between Jonathan from OMG and Devon than anyone else or any other manufacturer. Take care.
Thanks, John. My gear is… elderly…, but I still love it and it makes me happy.
Same here. I love my 1970's Akai and Saba amps and vintage speakers. They come from a period when we simply enjoyed what we had........
Here in Germany I have the feeling, especially when you're at the High End in Munich, that hi-fi no longer has anything to do with music and is about individual taste. So many people are so arrogant and everyone knows better etc. Anyway, a stereo system has to be expensive, the more expensive the better. So according to the motto that a stereo system under 100k can't sound good at all. It's so annoying now and it's just no fun anymore. People used to get together to listen to music, but now all I hear is: "Your pickup doesn't cost 10k€? You can't take the stereo seriously."
It's a pity, but there are other nice hobbies.
Not only the customers, the shop owners, too. I just made a tour through different hifi stores to buy an expensive system, and the arrogance of the people was astonishing.
Nice one.
So very true. I love Maggie 3.7i, 3A and Klipsch Cornwall. Also, a Sondek owner; long live Linn. Panels/ribbons and horns both get you there; in a different way. Thank you, John!
Beautifully stated, John.
I am a longtime devotee and proponent of SE DHT SE amplifiers, LCR phono preamplifiers, transformer volume controls, idler-drive turntables, open-reel tape, and horn-loaded speakers. Everything you stated here, to my mind, is exactly what needed to be said in response to those who believe such technologies can't possibly sound good, or be musically engaging.
As I have been saying for years, what nearly every audio enthusiast really wants is a great sounding jukebox. The technology to make that happen is completely irrelevant.
Well said great review
For me, the magic formula is pretty much what John mentioned: high-sensitivity speakers (Devore, Verity, Marten, Klipsch, ANUK, etc); silver cable; Class A, low-output, tube amp; vinyl, or perhaps a CD player that's been made with love (Audio Note, Accuphase, Esoteric, or Luxman). Put that little lot together, and you're in for a treat!
"made with love" Yes! Love it!
Well said my friend. Audio-snobs is the reason I stopped going to HiFi shows.
There are audiophiles obsessed with perfect sound; and those that are music lovers. I have spent a lot of time around live performed music; which is what I try to recreate and I choose equipment accordingly; not what sounds perfect (whatever that is?). Being around a lot of live music is something John has also experienced growing up. I have always picked recordings based on the performance; which the high end system then recreates as good as possible. There are many classical and jazz recordings that sound better than what I have, but not performed nearly as well. I have tube, hybrid tube/SS and some SS gear. CDs and LPs both.
If John can remember, when at CES back in the 2000's I would have to return to his listening room ever few hours to "reset" my ears and my brain back to what music and sound should be like; so I could then continue on listening to other rooms. Back then I use to post a lot on Audiogon as "Sugarbrie".
Well said John. 👍
I make saxophones and mouthpieces and the exact same thing in my business has happened but it’s true in many walks of life. Would love to trade stories with you one day John, I m in NY too. Btw, I just bought the entire 75th anniversary Blue Note collection.
I enjoy my old Tannoy gold speakers with class A diy amp from pass lab
I enjoy your rants. Who am I to tell anyone what to like? OTOH I have my own opinions. I remember the day an audiophile asked me what speakers I had. I named my best pair and he said oh that's midfi. I'd never heard the term before and laughed.
It's been nearly 50 years since I realized that probably nobody would ever sell anything that pleased me. So I said to myself, self, if you're so smart let's see you do better. So I took it up as an engineering challenge. What did I want? What industry promised but failed to deliver, concert hall realism. I tore up everything I thought I knew and set about to understand the problem. And when I did, solving it seemed hopeless. But in the end I did. My journey ended and all that's been left to do is enjoy it. I have exactly what I wanted. BTW, the day I understood the problem I wasn't an audiophile anymore. I've had far more fun experimenting, building, adjusting, trying new ideas than I ever could have shopping and swapping for someone else's idea of better.
agree, thanks for the video... you should have a conversation with devon on the channel.
I'm never owned a tube amplifier it's on my wish list. Going on what you say I've heard so many reviewers dog out my b and w speakers and I don't hear the walls are here and I like to think I have a very good ear. One day I hope to be able to purchase set of your speakers keep up the good videos
Keep ranting - wonderful!
Good one John. About the Kef LS50's, I don't quite get what everyone seems to like about them.
High fidelity is much bigger than the little minds who think they know everything about it.
Well said John. I've always been of the opinion that there are no absolute rights or wrongs in hifi, it's more about "how do you like your coffee"-and yes, l like mine immersive. Cheers from Sunny Scotland.
You rock when you rant, John - keep 'em coming! Would it perhaps be an idea for you to team up with Devon and build the ultimate Altec Ape? I for one would be more than happy to volunteer as guinea pig for testing such a speaker :)
What are movie theaters using now? I’m impressed by how dynamic and balanced of todays cinema theaters sounding like horns systems. Do altec type systems still live on today outside of expensive high audio outlier audio companies?
Good chat John. I just ignore those people who are narrow minded regarding what makes enjoyable audio or music. I used to attempt to state a case refuting their position but more often than not they were unmovable from their belief.
Gonna try to get to Lisson. Hopefully it is not too ridiculous
I cannot agree more with what you say John and you have a great philosophy about what it means to truly use the tools we have to enjoy what it is that we do. For a long time I went through the ups and downs of gear buying and ultimately a lot of it was related to I would find something and it would have qualities I liked but it wouldn't really wow me and then I'd find something that would wow me and then I would find something about it I didn't like. It's kind of a shame really and a ton waste of money but it wasn't until I found dec wear that I truly found a product that no matter what I hook to it it just sounds great and wows me with only two watts.
I've currently got it hooked to some tekton speakers but I would love to own a pair of orangutans , maybe you can send me a pair and I'll tell everybody how great they are
Power to the music 🤜🏼
Very interesting. I can confirm what you are saying here, as a younger "audiophile" I'm usually repelled by the more snobbish rich-guy scene.
You said things that needed to be said. We’ll done.
The owner of OMA has this CZcams video where he demonstrates this Western Electric horn systems, with compression drivers and bass bins. Very industrial looking. Even on my tablet, the sound is awesome. Extraordinary is closer to the mark
You have a very nice way of just saying some people are stupid.
that comment you referenced at the beginning. jesus. i block all flat earthers and pretend-fanatics and raging-agro-weenies. i just cant stomach it. i dont have much patience for devon turnbill, but i like horns and tubes.
John -- question:
I have a small, dedicated listening room (11' x 14'). I've been making my way towards the O/96 sound (started with Snell J/ii that I upgraded significantly, now onto a custom built-to-the-hilt SEAS A26). I heard the Orangutans pushed by Shindo amplification at In Living Stereo years ago, and have been working my way to that sound ever since.
I am very interested in this live theater sound, always have been. Maybe it's what enamored me about the O/96. I like to listen above 90db, with peaks in the 100s.
For my next speaker upgrade, to get that sound, should I consider the O/Baby? Or should I be like the Japanese and stuff Klipsch Cornwall in there?
Thank you for keeping serious HiFi in Brooklyn (I've got some Ohm C2s in the garage).
The biggest problem I have with so-called horn speakers is that they usually only have mid and high tones and no bass. And the dynamic bass is exactly what makes it special for me!
All that gear is just a means to an end... for me, the end is to enjoy the music... and that's all that really matters. I don't care if people agree or disagree with my gear, my music etc.. To each his/her own I say... Life is too short to worry about what others think...
I greatly appreacte these little rants and speaking what is on your mind. I think it serves as a reminder why we all in this hobby. I see many narrow minded opinionated people that seem to think it has to be this way or that way to sound good. But as you point out their are so many tastes and different ways to getting to audio nirvana that transcends and puts you in a different mindset and place. Weather it's a Inexpensive headphone system, horn speakers, modern speakers drive by tunes or solid state. I hate how the audiofool press makes some folks think some of this old stuff out of date. It just helps promote the sort of thinking that leads to folks to make these blanket statements. I just want our little nitch hobby be enjoyed. Folks who make those statements should reevaluate why their in this hobby. And I really love that tee shirt! May I ask where you got it? Thank you John !
I got th e shirt many years ago from here: www.geekculture.com
Its all about music immersion and enjoyment. However, most audiophiles are judges of what they view as definitively right and wrong regarding formats, components, music et al. How about everyone mind their own business and live and let live.
Very well said.
thank you John, spot on. the äudio¨community should have more reflexive thinking and much less marketing. Respect to you and your thinking.
Tube components can produce a fat, rich sound when paired with pre-digital, analogue, vinyl records. It's a wonderful experience of sound. In the fifties and early sixties, people were crazy about 101 Strings, Mantovani, jazz combos, samba, and the reason why was how nice those records sounded on large cabinet, big, heavy furniture stereo consoles, loaded with vacuum tubes in the back. Turn on the stereo and you had to wait about 45 seconds for the tubes to warm up. People my age remember those wonderful days of great sound.