The Unsolved Disaster of Midway - The Flight to Nowhere
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- čas přidán 23. 05. 2024
- The Battle of Midway went down in history as perhaps the most important victory of the US Navy in World War 2 - but beyond this success lies a tragic story of how a whole US carrier strike group collapsed within only a couple of hours.
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- Sources -
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A16-3, Admiral Raymond A. Spruance, Action Report Midway Serial 0144-A, 16 Jun 1942, available at: www.history.navy.mil/research...
Barrett Tillmann, The Battle of Midway, 2011, available at www.airforcemag.com/article/0...
Craig Symonds, The Battle of Midway, Oxford University Press: 2011
Amazon: amzn.to/3u1jvKo
Craig Symonds, Mitscher and the Mystery of Midway, Naval Institute, available at www.usni.org/magazines/naval-...
John Lundstrom, The First Team, Naval Institute Press: 2013
Amazon: amzn.to/3eX9SZ9
Jonathan Parshall, The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway, Naval Heritage: 24 Jun 2014, available at • Naval Heritage | Jonat...
Jonathan Parshall & Anthony Tully, Shattered Sword, Potomac Books: 2007
Amazon: amzn.to/3friNBe
Stephen L. Moore, Pacific Payback, Dutton Caliber: 2015
Amazon: amzn.to/3oywa6O
No. 286 Combat Narratives: Battle of Midway June 3-6 1942, 1943, available at: www.history.navy.mil/research...
Roland Russell, No Right To Win: A Continuing Dialogue with Veterans of the Battle of Midway, iUniverse: 2006
Amazon: amzn.to/3wflaxG
USS Hornet (CV-8) Action Report USS Hornet Serial 0018, 13 June 1942, available at www.history.navy.mil/research...
- Timecodes -
00:00 - The Battle of Midway
01:40 - The Flight to Nowhere: The Squadrons
04:22 - Hard Calls
06:31 - Get Off My Deck
08:30 - Intermission
09:24 - Two-Six-Five
11:14 - Waldron Breaks
12:17 - A House of Cards
13:52 - Torpedo Eight
16:48 - Bingo Fuel
17:49 - The Beacon is Lit
19:30 - Midway
20:27 - Home Sweet Home
22:10 - Unmitigated Disaster
26:58 - Recommendations
- Audio -
Music and Sfx from Epidemic Sound
Hope you enjoyed this one, big thank you to TFA, Chris Voltsis and Heath Douglass for their assistance. All important links are in the description.
*Important* TFA and I tried to recreate the footage as close to what the sources tell us (incl. plane codes etc) where possible: certain things we just don't know & TFA is still a work in progress. Any errors are my own. Corrections: 01:17 caption reads VB-8. Should be VS-8 (although some VB-8s joined in). 03:48 *Marc (Thanks Craig!) 07:12 *Departure
You might like this:
"On June 2 (June 1, Midway date), the Naval General Staff in Tokyo made a
startling about-face, reversing its opinion-reiterated just the day before-that
an American carrier force was in the South Paci¤c and, thus, that the Americans
were unaware of the Midway operation. It sent an urgent radio message
addressed to both Yamamoto and Nagumo warning that it now concluded that
the Americans were probably aware of the Midway invasion plan, and might be
sending carriers to Midway to ambush the Mobile Force. Yamamoto received
this warning, but Nagumo did not. Yamamoto was inclined to relay it to Nagumo
but, incredibly, was talked out of it by his senior staff of¤cer-Kameto
Kuroshima-on grounds that Nagumo had probably received it and radio silence
should be maintained.
...
Thus, three days before the attack on Midway it seems that just about everyone
in the Japanese high command suspected that American carriers might be
at Midway-everyone except Nagumo. At the end of this intelligence skirmish
the Japanese were actually in a position to ambush Nimitz’s carriers on June 4,
instead of being on the receiving end of Nimitz’s ambush. The problem was
that nobody shared any of this with Nagumo."
- Midway Inquest, pp 98-99.
Imagine the battle of Midway, with a fully alert Nagumo steaming well to the north of Midway and launching a full search for the USN carriers... once located the usual full strength two-phase attack. There would be no doubt about the outcome.
I had heard not too long ago that Germany has came to their senses and allowed the swastikas to be put back on their museum pieces. Is there any truth to that?
Excellent work! There are many conflicting reports from the Flight to Nowhere, this may be as close as we will get to how it actually all happened. BZ!
This is a great entry! Thank you very much!
@@trauko1388 not sure about outcome; the Japanese aviators at this time were likely the most skilled in the world and they would've faced fierce AAA and fighter opposition...and as far as Nagumo: Base your plans on what the enemy COULD do - not what the enemy might do...Naguma knew the strategic purpose of the battle, he just didn't have the aviator experience and couldn't grasp what the American carriers could do...the constant attacks kept the Kido Butai unable to launch the decisive counter strike
I'm reminded of a classic line : "The enemy can't predict our actions if we don't know what we're doing."
Conversely: This is the best bad plan we can come up with
@@eski152 I know that feeling far too well
power is only ever exercised asymetrically ... unreasonably ... it was a wtf's up moment for the Japanese for sure ... nothing about the americans in that engagement made a whole lot of sense ... it was a shot out at OK Coral and with about a thousand Wyatt Eurp's with control sticks in their hands ... somebody was goin down ....
Yep, the enemy can't know what your're doing if you yourself don't know what you're doing either
@@eski152 I know what movie THAT line came from !
That was Ben Affleck in that Iranian Hostage movie !
Great video! My name is John Doey Waldron and I am John Charles Waldron's grand nephew. It's really sad that Great Uncle John wasn't awarded the MOH amd even sadder that Ring was not prosecuted for cowardice or incompetence after the war! Hell, the USN was blissfully unaware for months that their torpedoes were defective! After the war, VT-8's bravery and their crap torpedoes was swept under the rug-I met NO one on active duty during my time in the USN who knew anything about VT-8, what really happened or the defective torpedoes. Even my assistant company commander at boot camp, who retired a Master Chief Petty Officer Torpedoeman's mate was ignorant of all of this!-John Doey Waldron
John, anyone who's studied the Pacific Theater in depth is well aware of the USN's malfunctioning torpedoes and the Bureau of Ordinance's dragging their feet to correct the issue. They dug in their heels for a year or so deflecting blame! For a year or so, they failed to take any action to correct the faulty Mk 14 torpedoes, thus endangering our boys. Pushing the technological envelope and failing is forgivable; pushing the envelope isn't always successful. What cannot be forgiven is their utter FAILURE to act when they were told about the problems with our torpedoes! To quote Sonny Corleone in "The Godfather", our boys were going into battle with nothing but their dicks in their hands...
I disagree, as the Navy's inspecting and approving their defective designs sunk more than one sub and in Midway, just like with the Iowa tragedy, the Navy tries to cover up as much as they can and gloss over what really happened. I had to send my former boot camp company commander links to prove to him what had happened with the early USN WWII torpedoes. Again, he was a torpedoman's mate, a submariner and attained E-9 before retiring-John in Texas@@markymarknj
John, you carry the name of fine man. Cherish that forever. His Souix blood made him a great scout. He did the right thing. He helped turn the tide. Who knows how the battle would have turned out had your grand uncle cow towed to his dopey superior.
Thank you. Great Uncle John mentored my father and helped mold him into the man he became-(EX) IC2 John D. Waldron@@MrBarnardRoom12
Thank you for your valued comments. I am a New Zealander living in Australia and also ex Navy. I knew of VT8 and the other torpedo squadrons at Midway but not the whole detail as presented here. I agree with your comments about the crap torpedoes. My understanding is that the Yorktown strike was the most organised as she had learned a lot at Coral Sea. Torpedo bombers had to be part of a coordinated strike or they would get massacred, and this also happened to TBF Avengers too if they were unsupported or the strike was uncoordinated.
It is a humble privilege to be able to thank your great uncle and you for your service and your sacrifice. I'm even shedding a tear for you both.
In my opinion, it makes Waldron and Torpedo 8's virtually suicidal charge all the more impressive--not only were they unsupported, flying slow lumbering Devastators into Zero hell, they had to basically mutiny and defy direct orders to even get into position to attack in the first place. It ranks with the charge of the Taffy 3 escorts at Leyte as amongst the most courageous, self-sacrificing attacks in the history of the USN.
Agree with you 100%. Admiral Mitscher and Commander Stanhope Ring should have been court martialed for what they did. But the Navy did successfully cover up what happened with Hornet until the past decade or two. So what Mitscher and the non-torpedo bomber crew of Hornet did for 70 years was they STOLE GLORY during the Battle of Midway, right? They did absolutely nothing at Midway and in fact Hornet's failure led to one Japanese carrier escaping the sneak attack and counterstriking to get revenge on Yorktown!
Nimitz should be blamed too. I am sure he didn't want this bombshell failure to be exposed to the public. It seems like everybody waited until George H. Gay passed away until they dared to let the truth come out.
Mitchell was a captain but wax slated to be an admiral his relief as hornets captain was already on board
@@dallasmars2 Yes. Rear admiral for him was inevitable since he already was appointed it before Midway but it didn't officially happen until after he finished the battle. I am talking about his appointment to vice admiral, admiral, and being given bigger and better commands starting in 1944. He should have been relieved from all combat commands and stay stuck at rear admiral permanently and there should have been an investigation.
Sadly, the excellent presentation concerning VT-8 and Lt. Commander John C. Waldron was banished when the Bush addition was added at the Nimitz Museum in Fredericksburg, Texas. My mother had to send book footnotes to the curator of the museum at the time to convince him to change my great uncle's name from Frank to John. One has NO idea of what VT-8 accomplished nor what actually happened if one goes to the Nimitz museum now. It does make one wonder what other mistakes were made underneath that curators time at the museum-Sad (EX) IC2 John Doey Waldron @@nogoodnameleft
Cristian, great video! In 1976 I had the privilege of going to an IPMS convention at which George Gay was the keynote speaker. He had just completed being the technical advisor for Midway Sensurround and so I got to hear his memories first hand around 30 years following the battle. Your account is 100% consistent with what he told us that day but adds in details he either didn’t know or elected not to mention in order to avoid “diming out” his shipmates. Thank you for filling in the gaps.
FYI, something that Gay told us and that doesn’t normally appear in the accounts of the battle is that he floated near where he was shot down for about three days following the battle until a PBY saw him and picked him up. He was medevaced in stages back to Pearl Harbor where he spent a number of months recovering from his wounds. While there he recounted two things that were interesting.
First, the doctors by that time were accustomed to seeing sailors with wounds covered in oil or marines with muddy wounds and asked him how he kept his wounds so clean, to which he answered “Oh, I’ve been soaking them in sea water for about 72 hours.” Second, because he was the only U.S. eye witness to see all of the crucial moments of the June 4 SBD attacks on the Kido Butai, he had a string of one admiral after another visit him in his room and just listen and listen to him to learn what he had seen. This made the medical staff wonder who was this random ensign that all the admirals in the PAC Fleet listened to him instead of him listening to the admirals.
Thanks Ray for that information I have never heard before.
That's one hell of a guest speaker they had.
17:37
When you go to from being in command of a strike force of a whopping 58 planes to flying by your lonesome simply because people got tired of following your insane orders to just keep flying despite running out of gas and being told you're flying on the wrong heading... You have so utterly failed as a leader that it's almost impressive.
Every leader is going to make mistakes, but when you're being stubborn to the point of putting your men's lives at risk that's no longer a mistake. That's negligence. And it's crossing a line. You need a very damn good reason to disobey orders and I feel that the men of Hornet's strike group that broke off were justified in doing that. I just wish that maybe Ring would've heard out Waldron and headed his words. Can you imagine if the entire strike group had found and attacked the Kido Butai alongside Waldron?
"It's not me that's wrong, it's everybody else" - a lot of incompetent leaders. (And please don't bring politics into this, plenty of examples from both sides.)
that first Midway movie alluded to it...the comment being made "Whatever happened to bombing eight and fighter eight?....we're supposed to coordinate the attack".........
it's called common sense
“Did you ever hear the tragedy of the USS Hornet’s air group at Midway?”
“No...”
“I thought not. It’s not a story Admiral Mitscher likes to tell.”
The winner writes the "history"
@@carbidegrd1 "History is a fable agreed upon."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
And the first line could be spoken by George Gay
"Is it possible to learn this powerful story?"
@@Brok. "Is it possible to learn this powerful story?"
"Not from a Freeaboo"
Being a former US Navy Sailor, the incompetence of some Naval Officers, and the covering up of that incompetence, comes as NO surprise to me.
Always got to protect the institution ... to the detriment of it's charges... I'm sorry it sounds like the Catholic Church hiding the molester priests 🤭
I work in the medical field and that happens a lot with doctors that can pass a test but are barely competent with their patients or absolute jerks towards the staff.
@Chandler White Yeah.... funny how that works. Just about any big company or government agency is the same. Look what Darth Kathleen Kennedy did to Lucas Films. I did have the privilege of working with some damn fine Officers and senior enlisted.
As a former US Navy Officer, the fact that this happened among Airedales (Naval Aviators, for the uninitiated) comes as no surprise to me.
The Peter principle exists, but most of these comments seem fueled by jealousy. If all you people are so convinced flying officers are boobs, why don't you become one and fixt it? Oh yeah, because you have nowhere near the aptitude required to graduate OCS and get wings.
Ring was a self absorbed career man. He made Flag rank and even commanded a light carrier later in the war. It was Naval Academy grads protecting each other. He was a made man before the battle and his piss poor performance did not change anything.
The flight was the perfect opportunity to frag him.Shame they missed that.
This revised history is speculation, other pilots have corroborated that the Hornet's whole group did in fact fly at heading 239 just as stated. Recall it was somewhat by luck that the Enterprise's group found the carriers.
@@08jag81 Except that Waldron, who broke away, found the Japanese while flying low. Ring & Co, flying high, never did.
No squadron reports, just a group report---signed by Mitscher, not Ring.
Spruance, not notably rattled, said 'In case of discrepancies, trust ENTERPRISE, not HORNET.'
@Doctor Detroit This was not a training issue. This was a decision issue.
@@08jag81 Waldron flew 239 and found Kido Butai. Ring and the rest of its air group didn't find, ergo - did not fly 239.
As a retired Naval aviator, I was not surprised by the "flight to nowhere" Ring was incompetent and the others covered for him. I saw that many times in my career. Mitscher thought he could/should run the battle and blew it badly. Spruance showed his allegiance to the Naval Academy protective association by accepting Mitscher's report but advising Nimitz to ignore it. When you come down to it, Midway was a "Miracle" with a few good men (like Dick Best) and a bucketful of luck letting us squeak through to victory.
When you come down to it, Midway was also the story of Japanese naval leadership making mistake after mistake as well, letting us squeak through to victory, but it seems unfashionable to bring up Japanese leadership mistakes in the comments.
Well it is true that it was just 10 men who scored the hits on the carriers.....Best X2 KleissX2(Mikuma as well), Shumway X2, Dexter, Gallaher, Jaccard, Dickinson, Holmberg , Bottomley, and Weber (.5 technically a near miss but it did jam Akagi's rudder)
What the Battle of Midway comes down to is that the USN made fewer mistakes than the IJN.
What continues to sadden me is how few people (especially active duty military), know anything about Lt. Commander John Charles Waldron , the Mk13 torpedo and Stanhope Ring's performance at the battle. One of my boot camp company commanders, who earned E-9 and was a Torpedoman's mate, knew nothing about VT-8 or the Mk 13 torpedo. I had to send him computer links to convince him. Although Waldron Road and Waldron Air Field are in Corpus Christi, my HS American History teacher knew nothing of Midway either. I brought a 1942 issue of Life magazine to teach her and the class that day in the late 1970's. Many history books do not mention that Midway WAS the turning point in the Pacific theater. My great uncle John was so gung-ho. He should have received the MOH and not the Navy Cross, as senior officers CAN and DO make decisions during war time, which do not always synchronize with the upper C of C. (EX) IC2 John D. Waldron (Desert Storm/Shield)@@markymarknj
@@markymarknj unfortunately that is the nature of war. They say no plan survives contact with the enemy.
One point I'd like to make: By not mentioning the mutinies, Mitscher didn't just cover for his men, he also covered for himself. Mutinies don't just come out of nowhere. While his men would be in a LOT of trouble for what they did, Mitscher would likely have been relieved as well.
And a proper investigation would reveal where the REAL problem lay. Ring was incompetent and petty. Not material to be CHAG. Perhaps his personality would have him serve as a pastry chef. He was NOT a leader of men.
@@briananderson8733 Ring reminds me of the POGUE incompetent Captain in BAND OF BROTHERS.
Chris actually stated Mitscher acted to protect himself, if not also his men.
@@briananderson8733 Yup-John Doey Waldron
@@briananderson8733 And blame whoever gave the order for Hornet's group to go west. Whoever it was.
As someone who has read at least five books about the Battle of Midway, and also read the after action report, written by Commander McClusky, this is new information. Well done.
Same here
Mike Montie. If you had read as many books on this battle as you say you have. Then you would know he is forgetting one very important point. That being Yorktown’s Torpedo 3, that’s why the Zero’s were down low when the dive bombers arrived. Funny how he never mentioned Air Group 3, or the Yorktown. And just a little note: Torpedo 8 lost 20 torpedo planes that day, and had 3 survivors. Most people forget, or don’t make the connection that the 6 TBF Avengers that attacked out of Midway was from Torpedo 8. The other two was Bert Earnest and Harry Ferrier, their TBF was the only aircraft to make it home out of 21 from the squadron. There’s a good book called “A Dawn Like Thunder”, if you would like to read it. It written by Robert J. Mrazek.
@@norshstephens2395
I've seen interviews of Earnest and Ferrier, I believe on the History Channel. I'll check out "A Dawn Like Thunder." Thanks.
@@norshstephens2395 Excellent book and you are correct. VT-8 was transitioning to the Avenger before the Battle of Midway-John Doey Waldron
@@norshstephens2395 I just finished "Dawn like Thunder." One of the best books I have read, not just about the Battle of Midway but even more, the Battle for Guadalcanal. Amazing story, amazing book. I recall seeing this book when it came out. I thought it would be just a retelling of the previous Torpedo 8 story. I have read several books about Guadalcanal and this book provided new detailed information. Thank you.
A Dawn Like Thunder, by Robert Mrazek , covers this and goes one step further in an addendum that is now in the US Naval Academy library. A survivor picked up by a Catalina gave his rescuer his highest bill from his wallet, a tradition, and the rescuer wrote on it the position. This led Mrazek to the truth of the cover-up. The Navy has this in their library as a lesson on point of Honor.
Having just finished "Shattered Sword", I was aware of the Hornet's air group abject failure. Ring's blunder is an striking testament to the uselessness of the "Because I said so" leadership style.
There is time and place for such leadership, especially in combat. But it places a great responsibility to the leader. Responsibility that was awfully quickly forgotten in Ring's case, apparently.
Ring should not have been a air group commander. He reported lacked the navigation skills and was too petty in leadership to have loyal men follow him. A better choice would have been for him to be a pastry chef or something else.
@@briananderson8733 The promotion of Ring and others like him is a criticism of the entire US naval command, pre-war, all too often a comfortable patronage system.
there's NO time for stupid leadership like that
Ring didn't even know How to release his bomb
SHATTERED SWORD, THE book to read on the battle
As the nephew of Henry Kenyon of VT8 and retired Naval Flight Officer with 700 carrier traps I greatly enjoyed your video. The 265 v 240 argument and John Waldron's decision to break formation is one of the moments of decision that change history. I think it would have been worth including the relative success of torpedo squadrons at Coral Sea in the discussion. I do believe that VT8 sacrifice was not without its tactical significance. It definitively located the Japanese, it brought it under attack, it absorbed time, gas, and ammunition. Most importantly it caused the Japanese to change their plan and induced hesitation
John Parshall and Anthony Tully have joined the chat.
Shattered Sword is still the best Midway book ever
@@josepetersen7112 - I agree. It’s the gold standard for Midway.
I wish it were true!
Jonathan Parshall has some great lectures on CZcams.
Of course, Ring receives the Navy Cross and eventually retires as a vice admiral. Given that, they should have awarded John Waldron a posthumous Medal of Honor. We can only wonder how Waldron’s after action report would have read had he survived and it’s convenient for Ring that Rodee’s, Johnson’s, and Mitchell’s reports were never released beyond Marc Mitscher’s gundecked after action report. As a retired naval officer, I can understand how the corporation took care of one of its golden boys in spite of his incompetence.
Ring and Mitscher were both consummate peacetime officers, utterly useless in battle. But always knowing where to apply grease to advance their careers.
I’m reminded of another stoic quote from my days in the military. “Why do all the good ones die and the (&@#), bad ones get promoted?” Medal of Honor for Ring? That goes beyond taking care of one of their own and puts it firmly into inconceivable lunacy and incompetence!
Waldron was insubordinate and refused to obey a direct legal order. His actions led to the complete destruction of his squadron in return for, at best, one additional increment to several serial attacks that delayed Nagumo spotting a consolidated strike on the US carriers (or anything else for that matter). Heroic? Yes. But insubordinate, destructive of good military discipline and ultimately disastrous losses for only marginal benefit. His death combined with the ultimate outcome of the battle allowed, in fact practically mandated, for PR and morale reasons, his subsequent mythology. Ring’s ‘blunder’ likely was no such thing. It’s more likely he was acting on Mitchers’s direction based on an assumption they would locate the 2 missing IJN carriers that hadn’t yet been sighted at that time. The official report was obviously edited to hide all this after the battle (Spruance as much as said so) for obvious reasons. If the truth had been told Mitcher would have looked bad and courts martial would have been required not just for Waldron but every other squadron leader under Ring and Ring’s capacity for command utterly destroyed. Can’t be court martialing martyred heroes of such a great victory now, could they? That would absolutely not do.
@@Harvey-mj8hw You’re too harsh by orders of magnitude. The righteous ‘rug sweeping’ that took place afterwards was pretty much mandatory and almost certainly the right thing to do. It’s benefits to Mitcher & Ring were more side effects than the purpose of the ‘cover up’. I think the USNI gets this one ‘on the mark’. I’d even venture a guess Spruance and maybe even Fletcher all knew about it. I wouldn’t even be surprised if it was ‘given the nod’ by Nimitz. It wasn’t just ‘mandatory’ B.S., it was the right call all around. Ring was used cautiously afterwards and did unexceptional yoman’s work for the duration (including planning the Yamamoto shoot down). In a document found after his death he said his course was intended to find the 2 missing carriers (in an assumed separate IJN task force), not directed at those already sighted. Ring’s failure at Midway was one of command leadership, not competence. Mitcher guessed wrong and Ring failed to effectively command his group in that effort. Command is always hard in failure, and Ring failed badly here.
@@shawngillogly6873 I fail to see the value of slandering good if imperfect men in order to praise others, of whom exactly the same is true.
Great thanks to Chris for his kind offer for yet another collab. As always, wherever we'll get to with TFA, without doubt we'd never have gotten close to that place without his fantastic help and support. Allow me to add a few things (and please give that a thumbs up so that the incoming waves of history savvy rivet counters will know that we do care ^^)
- First of all, sorry ofc for all the work in progress stuff that shows left & right. Naturally, final game will have an animated landing gear, and sound effects are also far from final. There's a lot of placeholder stuff, but we need to focus on the core functions these days. We'll make sure to come back to these later ;
- We didn't have the TBD model with twin defensive 30s available, so they are pictured here with a single gun. John Waldron was known to have used all the extras he could find from the SBD squadrons, hopefully we will be able to allow for this "custom type" to show up in the final game ;
- Mea Culpa in terms of research - we had all numbers on the Hornet planes painted black. A very obvious photograph you can check later in the video reminds us that, actually, although TBDs as showed on the John Ford reels had their numbers painted in black, Scouting Eight SBDs had their numbers painted in white. It's all my fault, don't blame Chris for that, don't hate us too much for that either! Will totally be corrected in-game though ;
- In regard of numbers proper, we all did our best considering that a lot of sources remain rather cryptic about them - a rather logical situation considering we hardly even know what happened during the flight at all when reading from the report. If you happened to have a better source regarding one plane or the other, again, apologies in advance!
- Yes, Soryu was probably attacked by Ens Gay from the other side, but considering it was very cinematic, we just left it like that. Also, she is lacking her meatball and is in her pre-Midway attire in the video. Blame our artistic licence...
There, I don't doubt that some of you will find other bothering discrepancies, but these were the ones bothering me most. Thank you all again for your kind understanding, and hopefully we'll get it a little better every time! Enjoy the video :)
I'm telling you right now that if Task Force Admiral plays anything like Ultimate Admiral: Dreadnoughts but with aircraft and carriers... I will just throw my wallet at you once it gets released.
Man TF:A is looking better and better!
I simply cannot commend you guys enough for being this humble, passionate, conscientious, erudite and communicative!
For me, this alone easily warrants buying two copies as I feel that this uprightness is increasingly rare-not only within the game industry, but in general.
(Oof, perhaps the latter part is just me getting old, jaded, and having had a few too many decades of no-life gaming.)
Anyway, major kudos to you guys and thank you for being so down-to-earth! o7
Looks great though. :)
I'm looking fwd to playing your game and potentially streaming it.
THANK YOU. I am 68. When I was an 11 year old kid back n 1963, our school had book fairs where all kinds of books were sold. My parents told me and my brothers we could each buy 2 books. I chose "The Mosquito Fleet" by Bern Keating (about PT boats in WW2), an EXCELLENT and entertaining read and "The Flying Tigers" by John Toland (about the American volunteers who flew P-40s for China under Claire Lee Chennault in WW2 before America entered the war). I have always had an interest in history, especially military history. I knew about the "common" accounts of the battle but NOT THIS. My dad served in the U.S. Navy ( he completed his training and was on his way to his first duty assignment on December 7, 1941 when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor). He served in the Pacific from the beginning until near the end of the battle for Okinawa when he was shipped home to serve in research and development at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland. If he knew anything about this he never said so.
... yeah... I understand your feelings...military sons and daughters have a personal interest in the history of the war...
I think it was Martin Caidin who wrote about the Flying Tigers; I think I read all those books as a kid too....but for an excellent, entertaining and more modern read, I suggest Daniel Ford's 'Flying Tigers'.
(EDIT:) Some folks gave Ford a hard time because he put a lot of effort to 'whittle down' the total vics the AVG was credited with. but he gave excellent explanations of how multiple pilots could claim the same aircraft and and used a lot of Japanese memoirs are official records for loss info. That being said, Ford did make the point that, while Japan was busy 'steamrolling' all the other opposition in the Pacific theater, the AVG and British Commonwealth were the only forces to not get totally overwhelmed and give the IJAAF a real bloody nose to boot--but they still got run out of Burma.
Just a bit of trivia: The AVG flew it's first mission very shortly after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Filthy Disgusting Ape, MINE was by John Toland, I have it in front of me now. Random House January 1963.
If you think THIS SNAFU Naval history was interesting read "Lucky Lady" by Steve Jackson (2003). What happened to the USS Franklin after it was attacked in 1945 is simply.. unbelievable! Talk about a 'cover up'. I found the book after reading my uncle's 1972 obituary. *Served on the USS Franklin* "The Franklin, never heard about it!" No wonder 😳
Video describes precisely the issue with transition from Peace to War. Many are unable to change or see the need for change, when the bullets start flying. I have seen and fought in 2 Wars and the ones who sat on the side and watched are demanding to be in charge, even though they refused going out on deployments. WWII saw many who were skilled at exercises, had no understanding that your enemy would find advantage. And the results were very bad for crews who saw and understood the enemy via fighting, and those who used a hammer to fight everyone.
I've never heard anything about this. Thank you for shedding light on this fascinating series of events
Shattered Sword points out that the key contribution of the VT squadrons was the consistent pressure such that the IJN could spot the strike. They needed 45 min... which they never got
Montemayor has fantastic YT vids showing that. He called it "Nagumo's Dilemma".
@@2854Navman Fantastic video. I have watched and enjoyed all of his naval videos
I was a member of the CAF in Harlingen TX back in the early 80s and we had George Gay there for the October AirSho a couple of year. He was signing autographs and models of the airplane but he didn't really have too much to say about the event. I am sure that he had retold that story thousands of times so no one really wanted to push it (among us pilots away from the crowd) he was just a really nice guy and thankful for all his good fortune. We all tried to think of an intelligent question but no one could come up with anything that had not already been said many times over.
You helped solve a mystery for me. I am grateful. I recently bought from Ebay a model box that George Gay had signed. The seller didn't know what the "writing" said or what significance it may have had. I have a signed copy of "Sole Survivor", Gay's book. I immediately recognized the signature.
I have wondered how he came to sign a model kit and whether it is unique or if not, how many might there be.
So, in the early 80's, in Harlingen, Texas, an unknown number of Devastator kit boxes were signed. There may be other air shows where he did the same thing but I believe the Harlingen event may have been unique for that.
So good to have an answer to my mystery. Thank you!
I've been researching one of VT-8's Radio Man/Gunners, Ronnie Fisher. I live in Colorado and he was from a small town out on the Eastern Plains. He was an only child from Wray, Colorado.
What this video didn't mention was VT-8 caused the Japanese carriers to maneuver to avoid their attack delaying recovery and launch. The attack also brought on the realization that there had to be American carriers present in the area forcing the enemy to have to swap out bombs for torpedoes causing the hanger deck to be littered with both along with aviation fuel.
VT-8's presence set into motion a series of scenarios that culminated in the dive bombers having only to deal with antiaircraft fire. True, it surly wasn't planned and it was futile but knowing so, those young men didn't hesitate to press on and do their duty.
This is a History Channel at midnight story, but researched and produced by everyone’s favorite German aviation historian!
"This is like watching the History Channel, but researched." Also works.
The History Channel hasn’t had anything to do with history, researched or otherwise, for the past two decades.
Yes, the irony! A German teaching Americans about US history! (Meanwhile I am an American teaching Germans about their history! see my vids)
Too bad this German "historian" forgot about VT-3. Go read up on VT-3s part in the battle, insert their actions into the timeline provided in the video clip, and see if you still think his research is all that good.
Every pilot from Torpedo Squadron 8 from the Hornet received the Navy Cross, including the lone survivor Ensign George Gay. The rear gunners all received the Distinguished Flying Cross.
Gay passed away in 1994 and his cremated remains were scattered at sea at the site of the battle of Midway.
reminds me of Goering demanding the fighters fly in formation beside the bombers during the BoB, crippling their performance
Oh God I was going to go to sleep but then you dropped this. I know the story of "The Flight to Nowhere" and VT-8 but I have to listen to this because I'll never get tired of Midway-related content.
I was honored to meet Ensign Gay at an airshow a number of years ago. RIP
I have been reading and watching Midway stories since childhood, about 60 years, with about 5 or 6 books in my collection and also never tire of them. Also a member of the Battle of Midway Round Table an excellent source of info. Check out BoMRT.
@@samsilberstein8758 I know about BoMRT but if I look into it in more detail I'll go down the rabbit hole. I'll check it out once I have some more time on my hands.
Excellent analysis! Thank-you. I always wondered what happened during that battle to Fighting 8 and Bombing 8. The two Midway movies (esp the 1976 version) are so confusing and leave so much out. Even though I watched the 1976 movie several times and took notes, I was still left confused. Your maps showing the flight paths helped immensely in figuring out where everybody went and ended up. How we won the Battle of Midway was either a miracle or a whole lot of luck. I don't know why Yamamoto didn't push on with his battleships. The American carriers had spent their load, lost many aircraft and crews, and the Yorktown was severely damaged. I think he still could have taken Midway had he thrown EVERYTHING he had into the attack. IMHO, the Japanese were gun shy at Pearl Harbor, Midway, and the Battle of Leyte Gulf. The Americans were just as fatalistic as the Japanese at Midway and the Battle of Leyte Gulf (suicide attacks by Destroyers). It was fortunate for the U.S. that Japanese Admirals on these occasions were more concerned about losing their ships than they were about winning the battles.
Wish I would have met you when I lived in Germany. I lived 3 years in Aachen, 3 years in Butzbach, and 6 years in Esslingen (Stuttgart). I just moved back to the states. You do a great job!
Laughed out loud at the "The pain ends soon" bar xD
HEY, HELLO This is a very sad episode of the beginning of the carrier battles of Midway but you have to give all of these carrier flyers credit for each ones individuals bravery where it is due they all helped win WW2 due to their sacrifices...
I don't know for what to give credit to Commander Stanhope Ring and not yet-Admiral Mitscher. One would say, that a course of 265 was an act of cowardice, to avoid the battle. Everybody at that time knew where Japanese ships are (or at least supposed to be), but not Ring and Mitscher. Lt. Cmdr Waldron and its VT-8 paid the price.
@@1ramyus Horse hockey. You just didn't become a naval aviator in those days without a certain level of courage. You were more likely to be killed in an accident before you even finished your training, than to be killed in combat. It was either an error in math (albeit inexplicably unadmitted) or they were going for a perceived different target.
@@1ramyus You do seem to have a rather touching faith in the quality of radio communications and the quality of tactical intelligence available to the US Navy at the time of the Battle of Midway. On a strategic level the USN had a pretty good idea what was going down. On a tactical level, not so much.
The brave ones should've gunned-down the flight leader that orchestrated the parade fly-by on critical mission fuel.
@@paulslevinsky580 They were just doing what the Japanese did on every flight, and they were considered masters of this stuff at the time. Congrats on your 20/20 hindsight, o armchair admiral.
The story that the torpedo squadrons contributed to victory by drawing the Zeros to low altitude doesn't hold water, but they (along with the attacks from Midway) forced the Japanese to keep their flight decks busy cycling CAP fighters. So it wasn't the mechanism usually attributed, but the effect of stressing the Japanese defenses was more or less the same.
My only observation on the battle is: it was still early in the war and skill, tactics, and leadership had not yet reached their highest point. My opinion on your vids however, is that they have already reached perfection and I feel this is your best yet. EXTREMELY informative and entertaining enough to keep one interested during a history lesson. Well done!
Midway changed Naval tactics from Battleships to Carrier Battle Groups. General Billy Mitchell tried years ago, by Pearl Harbor and Midway were the school of hard knocks that caused Naval tactics to change. (ex) IC2 John D. Waldron-Desert Storm/Shield.
The biggest problem here is a lot of the senior officers were still in a peacetime mindset and didn't know how to really fight. This is a case in point. Ring was a good old boy appointee and when it hit the fan had no clue what to do and couldn't listen to his squadron leaders with out losing face.
Perfect example is Vice Admiral Robert Lee Ghormley. A staff officer that failed as a battle commander.
Good voice. Your pronunciation is sharp and clear, greatly appreciated by older, Western ears.
My father, who served 1953-1973, related to me that the story of Torpedo Squadron 8 is legendary in the U.S. Navy. It's a symbol of heroic dedication to mission, and inspiration to all Navy sailors and aircrew.
It's so sad how so few people, especially active duty Navy, know anything about Midway. John D. Waldron
Now I am torn. Your "ads" actually are well done and executed. So I have to admit that I find those entertaining in their own right. Getting good ad content in the video executed by the Narrator plus great historical content is a Win/Win.
I am very impressed with your detective work. You can see the real passion and interest in history. This makes this channel extremely valuable.
A big round of applause to TFA for its great illustration of this story.
My heart breaks every time I hear a story about downed pilots who had to ditch under silly circumstances
Why would a "downed pilot" have to ditch? He is already downed.
You seen the independent movie "against the Sun" that fits perfectly.
2:54 Stanhope Ring
Uh oh, getting some real Band of Brothers/Captain Sobel vibes here.
Except one ended up an admiral and the other became a footnote in history.
your weekend pass is *R E V O K E D*
You will report to the IG's office for a general court martial! Or, you can stay on post and be my gofer until we ship out.
IRREGARDLESS!
They should have put Mitcher in a room with King for half an hour and locked the door
Possibly. How would that have impacted later battles when he had command of TF 58? He was generally considered to be a hero from that point on. Just saying.
He wouldn't have been hurt or anything, but much like the boys at the Ordnance Department, a reaming from Admiral King might have given him the correct appraisal of his own performance.
Mitscher*
Air NAV over water is difficult. My uncle was a pacific fleet TBM Avenger pilot. He recalled this experience....post strike, when reforming, the SqFlightCom called out a return NAV heading to carrier, my uncle had a different heading & asked permission to give details, SqFC said NO. My uncle turned off his radio, turned to his correct NAV heading, & landed on his carrier (the only plane to survive). Told ComAirGRP his story & was immediately transferred off ship. Told to keep his mouth shut. He joined a new squadron in Hawaii.
As A pilot and a student of military history. I appreciate you setting the record straight . Outstanding work.
I like that you cite multiple sources (and original documents). To me the other near catastrophe of Midway occurred less than two weeks after the battle when the Chicago Tribune published that code-breaking was part of the miracle. Roosevelt was so incensed he wanted McCormick (Tribune's owner) tried for treason, but it was pointed out that making a commotion would confirm the story to the Japanese. - The Emperor's Codes, Smith M.
We had a cousin who was a pilot in Waldron squadron. 5 years after his death, my Grandmother still recalled how badly his mother, her aunt, had taken it.
Many of the aviators from the Hornet air group participated at the Battle of Santa Cruz islands. Hornet aviators put the Shokaku out of commission. Hornet aviators also scored hits on the Chikuma. Hornet aviators underperformed at Midway. They bounced back at Santa Cruz. I believe this is a case of things evening out.
Absolutely. Also, Hornet herself paid the ultimate price at Santa Cruz, the Japanese crippled her and she had to be scuttled.
Yes, and unfortunately only a tiny few Midway Enterprise DB pilots were at Guadalcanal, and some of those few died there as well. At least from what I’ve read.
@@timonsolus Hornet did not go down without a fight. I believe hornet took at least five bomb hits from dive bombers. Two bombers crashed into Hornet. Hornets took three hits from torpedo bombers. Two US destroyers tried to sink hornet in vain. 400-500 five inch shells set the hornet ablaze. US torpedoes failed to sink Hornet. Hornet only sank after being hit by four Long Lance torpedoes.
@@benjaminbuchanan7151 I believe twelve DB crews were lost on June 4. Best never flew again. Gallaher sustained a serious back injury during the attack on the Hiryu. I know a few of the Enterprise DB crews were at the Battle of the Eastern Solomons.
@Doctor Detroit idiot civilians?
I encourage everybody reading this to see the Montemayor's series on the Battle of Midway. Awesome work....
One of the funniest and truest events of Catch-22 (the novel and the movie) was the awarding of medals to the men for failing to even try to achieve the goal of a mission, basically to make their CO look better. This reminds me of that so well; but of course it is a time-honored tradition in Western militaries.
What, as opposed to those consistently upright, ever-victorious Eastern militaries? The ones who behead unarmed nurses, rape Nanking, and sabotage their own battleships?
@@penultimateh766 Way to be relevant, Mr. Highlighted Reply.
WTF...As opposed to the “time honored” Eastern Civilization tradition of killing oneself (Hari Kari) after failing a mission instead of facing up to one’s mistakes like a man.
CDR. Stanhope C. Ring... who completely FAILED in both Navigation and Leadership missing the enemy carriers completely, and for intended purpose LOST his Command due to a Mutiny, and lost 27 of the 60 aircraft in his command, and 31 U.S. aircrew died during the debacle, without a single substantial hit on the enemy that day from his wing.
What happened on the 4th of June was overshadowed by his accomplishments in the following days of the battle. Ultimately he received the Navy Cross for the Battle of Midway and went on to retire as a Vice Admiral.
When Ensign Gay passed away in 1995, his ashes were dropped over the Pacific near were his Squadron had fallen. In his ultimate act, he returned to be forever with his shipmates. I think that's the best thing to remember about this story. That the sacrifices made will never be forgotten so long as we remember those who made them.
Fair Winds and Following Seas...
The torpedo attacks of VT-8 & VT-6 (from Hornet & Enterprise, respectively), despite scoring no hits, disrupted flight operations, preventing Nagumo from launching his counterstrike against US carriers. Only VT-3 from Yorktown, which arrived after 10 AM, distracted the Zeroes & brought them down to lower altitude.
Also, the Yorktown’s strike was coordinated & included Jimmy Thach’s Wildcat fighters. They were able to use the Thach weave (for the 1st time in combat) to shoot down several Zeroes. That brought the rest of the Japanese combat air patrol Zeroes down from altitude, leaving the path open for the dive bombers from above.
Let's just say that Mitscher must have had someone with influence who liked him and still thought he was a competent commander. He apparently got a lot of second chances in his career including being able to restart his studies as a naval cadet at Annapolis after being forced to resign following his second year for poor academic performance and numerous disciplinary infractions.
That man was Nimitz
@Doctor Detroit I read somewhere that Roosevelt offered the Pacific Fleet cmd to Nimitz BEFORE the war & that he declined it! So the slot went to Kimmel! Think how that would have changed war history - Nimitz would have been sacked after 12 - 7 -41. And think how we would view Kimmel if that "spent" bullet had killed him during the battle. Fortune favors the few!
For any and all with an interest in the Battle of Midway I would recommend (among others) Shattered Sword but also a book written by the moderator of the Battle of Midway Round Table Forum called "No Right to Win". Lots of BOM round table members were vets of the battle and for a lot of first hand accounts (including those who were on the flight to no where) it's a treasure.
Only Incredible Victory by Walter Lord is quoted on the national ww2 monument in DC.
One of the best earlier books is "Miracle at Midway" by John Toland. Unfortunately, it's been out of print for years. John Doey Waldron
Agree on Ron Russell book and the BoMRT!
@@TheGearhead222 By Gordon Prange.
Disobeying an order to find and attack the enemy. That would be a very interesting court marshal case.
The US oath of office doesn't mention anything about obeying orders. That being said, you'd better have a real damned good excuse for telling a superior officer to pound sand.
@@peteranderson037 Yes the oath of office says nothing but the rest of the Uniform Code of Military Justice DOES.
It would never had made it to a court martial, it's bad for morale to punish officers for engaging the enemy.
@@costakeith9048 Depends if it got anyone killed. Incompetence is punishable-an eager commander is just as much at fault if they're seen to needlessly get men killed in their 'lust' for combat.
@@peteranderson037 (Edit) upon further research, I stand corrected. I looked up the Oath of Enlistment, not the Oath of Office. I've left the rest of the original comment below. (Please don't hurt me.)
Actually it does. Here's the oath that was current at the time:
I, (Name)., do solemnly swear or affirm (as the case may be) that I will support the constitution of the United States.
I, (Name), do solemnly swear or affirm (as the case may be) to bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and to serve them honestly and faithfully, against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and to observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States of America, and the orders of the officers appointed over me."
The next section of that chapter specified that "the said troops shall be governed by the rules and articles of war, which have been established by the United States in Congress assembled, or by such rules and articles of war as may hereafter by law be established.
This was changed to the current oath in 1960 becoming effective in 1962:
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
Both specify obeying the orders of superior officers.
Great video. Really enjoyed it. The truth in history often requires researching beyond the common narrative. One overlooked element of the battle (reported by the Japanese) is that the Zero fighters at the battle had removed their radios from their aircraft to save weight, and as such there was no command and control of their CAP. The Admirals of their task force had virtually no way to command their pilots to regain altitude after diving down on the torpedo bombers.
...thank you for your info...
Those radios were ineffective anyway which was the reason for their removal. Why carry seveal kilograms of dead weight?
@@gasperpoklukar8372 This was the excuse the pilots gave for there removal. Noisy and lots of static, but their scout planes radios seamed to work just fine, The radio problem should have been corrected. Its ridiculous that they communicated through hand gestures and wing wagging. Even late in the war they had no means to communicate. No command and control.
@@markaemerson I was not aware of that. But did scout planes carry the same type of radios?
@@gasperpoklukar8372 Probably not. They may only have been capable of only morse code type transmissions, but at that date in the war, it's ridiculous that their aircraft had such poor radios. It contributed to their defeat at Midway since their fleet commanders were unable to control their own CAP. They could not recall them back over the fleet, or prevent the entire CAP from diving on the torpedo bombers leaving them no defense against the dive bombers.
Regarding the Zeros being able to climb up to attack the dive bombers after fending off the torpedo bomber attacks: about 20 minutes to make a 15 minute maximum rate climb is a pretty tight window. The fighters aren't going to instantly start climbing at maximum rate the second the last torpedo bomber goes down. First you have to sweep the area to ensure that all of the torpedo bombers are down, then you have to begin your climb back up to patrol altitude (which isn't going to be a maximum rate climb until you have confirmation of more bombers above). All of this also assumes that you are automatically climbing in the correct direction and don't have miles to cover to intercept the incoming dive bombers before they push over.
Don't confuse people with the facts.
Jonathan Parshall sums that point up perfectly. The zero was perfectly capable of making back to 15 000 ft or 20,000 feet. Remember that it is the time from when a few survivors of VT-6 left and VT-8 was shot down until 1020 or so. Please watch Jonathan Parshalls CZcams videos on the battle of Midway he sums it fully. Fighters had plenty of time to get to normal patrol altitude. It was only VT-3 and elements of VF-3 that pulled the CAP down to deal with VTs. That left VB-3, VB-6 and VS-6 relatively unmolested in their dives. This resulted in 3 burning jap carriers.
The A6M2 had a 3090 feet per MINUTE climb rate. So that means it takes 7 minutes to make over 21,000 feet roughly.
@@WG-tt6hk P Allen doesn't have the facts. A6M2 climbs at 3,090 ft/minute that means 7 minutes to more than 21,000 feet.
@@briananderson8733 Sad when the correct comment has fewer upvotes than the incorrect one.
Any way you cut it, VT-8's attack had absolutely no effect on the positioning of the IJN CAP. The squadrons that can fairly take credit for that were VT-3 and VF-6. The only silver lining from this fiasco is that it forced Nagumo to delay flight operations and keep him defensive. Had VT-8 not attacked, Nagumo might've been able to launch his counterstrike before VT-6 showed up.
Well produced. I am a student of history and thought I knew a lot about this action, but you educated me. Thank you and good work.
GREAT VIDEO. Was extremely fortunate to have Dr. Craig Symonds for two classes at the Naval Academy in the mid eighties. He is also a Civil War expert.
Has to be one of the best military historians this country ever produced.
Yes, but Dr. Symonds buying in to this false “Fight to Nowhere” scenario invented by Weisheit is the biggest mistake of his career.
@@joeelliott2157 promise you he did the primary source research
This story is an amazing example of twisted leadership, or how character flaws and personality disorders (e.g. narcissism) can ruin an entire organisation, be it a squadron, a wing, an entire armed force, an enterprise or business, a political party or, why not, a whole nation. It's a manual study case for a mix of organization dynamics, individual and collective psychology, aircraft technology, and military air operations. Deeply enjoyed, Chris. Thank you for brining this rather unknown episode to our attention.
Mein Bruder! You show the best of what it is to be German. And, yes, you can get complicated, but that is what makes us German. Keep up the good work.
Ego and arrogance are the main factors of this failure. I have done a great deal of reading on this subject and I love how Ring was the LAST to turn around but the FIRST back.
I did not know about Hornet's self destruct air group - but it makes perfect sense - thanks for bringing this out - one can only surmise what might have happened had everybody had followed Waldron - it might have been a turkey shoot for the Japanese or a somewhat coordinated attack - a one-two punch - Hornet goes in and gets decimated then Enterprise and Yorktown finish the job.
Back in the late 60's I met my Mom's cousin who was a Navy Dive bomber pilot during the war. He was a SBD Pilot on the first (CV-8) Hornet. He told me he didn't get along with the air group commander whom he described as a "my way or the highway" type of leader. He got a transfer before the Hornet got to California. He was later on one of the CVL's that attacked Truk (I think it was the the Cowpens). He described dive bombing what he identified as cruiser in the lagoon.
I got a copy of Proceeding's article with Stanhope Ring's lost manuscript. I note that he doesn't state what original course they took, but that he eventually turned south. And he doesn't mention Torpedo 8 at all except post mortem.
It's all interesting...
The Torpedo squadron story is assuredly NOT nonsense. The successive attacks by VT-8 and VT-6 did pull the Japanese CAP down, deplete their fuel and ammo, and fatigue their pilots. While dodging torpedoes the Japanese carriers couldn't land or launch CAP fighters. The Japanese had no fighter direction doctrine, and pilots on both sides had no CAP discipline at this stage in the war and behaved like 8-year-olds playing soccer. The CAP fighters did not return to altitude. Saying a Zero COULD climb to 15,000 feet in five minutes is not the same as proving it DID. And a Dauntless can go from extreme visual range to attack dive tipover in FOUR minutes.
Its worse than you say. The video clip carefully omits entirely the attack of VT-3 which occurred AFTER that of VT-6. It is this attack, conveniently left out of this telling of the "lovely story," which KEEPS the Japanese air cover engaged down on the deck until after the dive bombers begin their attack. Like you, I am severely annoyed when popular "historiographers" like this one conveniently ignore inconvenient facts for the sake of advancing a revised view of history. It casts doubt on everything else they say.
I had never heard any of this history about Midway, just fascinating. It just goes to show you how history is written and what is conveniently 'left out'. Thank you MAH!
My dad was a PBY flight mechanic with the crew that discovered the Japanese fleet heading towards Midway. Of all the stories he told me over the years, he never told me anything about this episode. Maybe even he didn't know about it. So thanks..
My sincere compliments Sir. Nicely done. As a layman historian of WWII and have studied The Battle
Of Midway I have to admit that though I was aware of amazing Fog and Missteps, I did not have any
idea of the gargantuan Snafus. But I do know that all Battles contain the same. Might I make a
respectful suggestion to address the venerable Eric Hartmann in the future....The Blonds Knight
Of Germany and The Most Deady Bird Of Prey that has ever existed. Respectfully: Capt DGA - AAL
Great Video. The amount of work put into the re-creations, balanced with good historical photos, AND research is outstanding. Thank you for the photos at the end.
Much appreciated! The folks at TFA worked hard on this fotoage, I am sure they'll be happy to hear it!
@@MilitaryAviationHistory These TFA cut scenes look great, The colors in the sky & ocean look better than most movies. I hope the game has an observer popcorn mode!
This type of research and visuals I have always wanted for a Battle of Midway documenary since I read "Miracle at Midway" when I was 10. Bravo, Chris, and the folks at Task Force Admiral.
I just bought "Miracle at Midway" and intend to start reading it any day now. I've read three other books about Midway and Torpedo 8. For some reason, the story really fascinates me.
@@Kawboy65 Miracle at Midway is, in my opinion, a must-read. It is older than some newer works and as such it has some accuracy issues, but it was my gateway to the First Team series, A Glorious Page in Our History (Cressman, Ewing, Horan, Tillman), That Gallant Ship (YORKTOWN by Cressman), USS ENTERPRISE (by Ewing), the First Tram books and Black Shoe Admiral by Lindstrom, No Right to Win (Russell), and Shattered Sword (Parshall and Tully). Steady Nerves and Stout Hearts, while not about Midway, includes a lot of stories about ENTERPRISE Air Group who flew at Midway. If you are interested in Midway books, feel free to message me; I have probably 30 books related to Midway or the Pacific in 1942 if need some suggestions.
@@chrishawkinson8846 Thanks. I also just bought "Incredible Victory" since those are the books that seem to be heavily referenced. I did find a first run of "Carrier Combat" by Lt. Frederick Mears. It's kind of solemn knowing that he was killed while still writing his book.
Thank you kind Sir!
Thank you - that was excellent. I've been studying this battle for more than 50 years and this is by far the most detailed presentation I've seen of what happened to the Hornet's air group on June 4th, 1942. Great work. Excellent channel.
I was truly astonished at how poorly led the air groups on the hornet were.
Keep saying that the allies won the war by brute force, and every day that assertion becomes more firmly verified.
Q uestion you make no comment on the Wildcat as compared to the same configuration but superior “ Hellcat “ pls reply
@@steveperreira5850 At the time of Midway, I wouldn't call it brute force. We won because the USN and Marines kept coming. Plus, the U.S.N. carriers were a lot tougher than the Imperial Japanese Navy understood or respected.
This presentation is VERY accurate! Lt Commander John C. Waldron was the bravest man in all of Airgroup 8.
I enjoyed your presentation, especially the documentation of your analysis. I have studied the Battle of Midway and this is the first time I have heard this account of Hornet. I am a US Navy vet, having served in a "heavy recon" squad on the USS Forestall in the closing years of Vietnam. Thank you for your time and your post.
Wow, I have never seen that dramatic footage of Torpedo 8!
Added to the part below, showing Ring and Lord Cardigan had a few more things in common.
When a Lieutenant passed Cardigan at the head of the charge, Cardigan sharply recalled the Lieutenant, stating that 'he was in command' and therefore at the front, forcing the Lieutenant to slow his horse and let his commander drive in front.
The moment when Waldron argues with his commander, then breaks off, reminds me of that scene in "The Charge of the Light Brigade (1968)" which pretty much was how it happened.
Captain Nolan (Waldron) realizes they are going the wrong way. He spurs his horse on to get to the commander of the brigade, Lord Cardigan (Ring) at the front but he ignores Nolan as he thinks he's an upstart and he never liked him to begin with. Just then Nolan is hit by shrapnel and dies so his message is unheard.
Also, the Heavy Brigade failed to support the Light Brigade although at that battle, it would have only added to the overall number of casualties.
Like Ring, Cardigan lost his men because riding at the front, he was unaware of the carnage the Russian artillery was inflicting on his men.
When the remainder of the Light Brigade hit the Russian cannon, noone who returned to their own lines recalls seeing Cardigan.
Apparently the commander had reached the enemy line, swung his sabre a few times then turned around and rode back to his own line, got to his tent and called it a day.
“Vocal rendition of the finger” love it
Whoever did the graphics for USS Hornet did their homework in regards to the depiction of the Pri-Fly (Primary Flight Control) station at 2:55. Hornet's was different compared to Yorktown and Enterprise based upon experience. As depicted, Hornet's was angular providing better visibility of flight activities. Yorktown's and Enterprise's was not. Good job guys!
Never heard this story…
Being a veteran, the leader not listening to his errors sounds correct.
Thanks for the videos that sound so precise.
I'd recommend 'A Dawn Like Thunder,' a careful history of VT-8 which focuses on Waldron and Stanhope Cotton Ring for additional reading material. It goes further to talk about what the other half of VT-8 - the ones who were flying Avengers up from Hawaii - did for the rest of the war. It's a fantastic story.
The land based part of VT-8 that flew the Avenger from Midway had only a SINGLE pilot survive the attack on the Kido Butai. ONLY one plane returned from that group of SIX Avengers.
A detachment of VT-8 did fly out to Midway Island, and took part in the early battles on Guadalcanal. 'A Dawn Like Thunder' details the heroic efforts of the air and ground crews, including the patching together of the last remaining Avengers, combining pieces of three to cobble together one. Those survivors of the dark days on Guadalcanal with the Avengers from Ford Island (that were unable to participate in the Midway battle) were quite upset on their return to find George Gay being winded and dined as "the sole survivor of Torpedo 8," while they stood by and watched, wondering, "What about us?" Robert Mrazek's book details the unit's history during World War II with profiles of those who served, so we know their life histories and character.
I have been a student of World War 2 aviation history my entire life, and I thought I was pretty well read on the subject. This video is the first time I have ever heard of the flight to nowhere. I have always heard of the Hornet's Torpedo 8 and I never really put it together that you don't really hear about any of the other Hornet squadrons in the battle story.
Wow, great stuff ! Like most amateur historians I knew about the tragedy of VT-8, but I never realised just how badly Hornet performed on the day. It must have stung Mitscher badly that in the greatest naval victory in US history he was basically a bystander who sacrificed half his air complement on a bad call.
Thank you for this excellent video about a little known part of this absolutely critical battle in World War II in the Pacific.
Great video! Good point on the Zeros. I believe the Zeros only had 60 rounds per canon, so there is a good chance they were low on grenades when the dive bombers showed up. Much harder to destroy them with 2 7.7mm machineguns.
I agree! The two most important assets for CAP are fuel and ammunition. The Zero had phenomenal range but the paucity of ammunition carried, plus the morning's busy defensive actions dictated cycling CAP for ammo long before fuel became a concern. "Shattered Sword" really gets into the Japanese flight deck operations that morning and the need to keep the flight decks clear to support CAP air defense.
That was part of the American strategy though. To keep striking, even with forces that stood little chance of doing much in order to exhaust the enemy and prevent them from mounting a counter offensive. People like to talk about American luck (which we had, esp that last bit) but forget that the US had a solid plan and good intelligence going into the battle. The fight lasted as long as it did mostly due to some hard fighting and damn good dodging by the Japanese.
The actual events are far more exciting than the "sanitized version" found in all other videos. CMDR WALDRON is a very understandable American. Most of us with military experience and combat experience have some understanding of superiors who are essentially, domineering, while a bit short on leadership qualities, and CMDR WALDRON seems to have dealt with one the best way he knew how.
Nice one Chris for highlighting Midway. It's so easy for armchair airman armed with hindsight to be critical, but when the facts are made plain. The fog, fear and confusion of real war, especially in the untried environment of a major fleet carrier action, can only be imagined and it's not surprising they ran with the myth of glory rather than the gritty and painful reality.
I have always found the Hornet's air group performance at midway to be sketchy. It really highlights the true miracle of this battle as the American air group won with only 2/3rds of the team showing up. The US navy of 1942 was not superior to the Japanese in skills as operations around Guadalcanal proved.
Actually by Guadalcanal it was much more even on a pilot for pilot basis. Hornets attack on Shokaku was 12 SBD's and probably 6 hits. In October, they were sharpshooters. Still command and control problems tho.
My issue was with command and control so agree 100%. It was at the start of 1943 when commanders, training and experience reached parity.
Hornet was a half hour late in the attack on Hiryu; I queried the guys at the Round table who opined Hornet was green therefore slow, the attack would have been more effective if Hornet pilots participated.
@@pakers2128 Hornet did not matter on the attack on Hiryu, she was a gonner by the time the dive bombers got there. If, as is the subject of this video, the dive bombers headed in the right direction in the morning attack, it is perfectly conceivable that Hiryu is sunk then, and Yorktown saved. Instead, someone screwed the pooch very badly.
As noted, the fact that Torpedo 8 had temporarily drawn the zeros down low, was actually not a factor, given the zero's rate of climb. However, Torpedo 8's attack (along with that of various other American planes, to one extent or another) DID have the effect scattering Kiido Butai over a wide area. This caused the flight decks of the Japanese carriers to be continuously launching and recovering extra CAP fighters. For that reason, the planes of the strike against American TF 16 and TF17 couldn't be brought up from the hangar decks and spotted, let alone launched before the SBD's of Yorktown and Enterprise arrived. Timing is everything.
Here is my only unique knowledge of this. After finding out about Midway from my Naval Officer dad, and that my grandfather had been a Hellcat pilot on Hornet, I asked Grandpa about it. All he said was, "Son, I don't talk about that. All I can say is that CHAG or someone in the brass was a dumb son of a bitch who damned near got us all killed for nothing." That would have been nearly 30 years after Midway, and he was STILL pissed.
I have read many books about Midway, but never heard of this mutiny - most informative - the winners write the History books
I do not think it was mutiny as much as thinking they were riding to their deaths. I think in the end it was turn back or die.
I like that you segment your content so i can make marks where to pick up.
Midway was the fifth aircraft carrier for the US side . . Despite the misses the defense succeeded and were lucky to catch the J. Navy in a shift change. Radio silence protected the defenders but not their airmen from miscommunication. There are few victories so clear cut where so much misadventure occurred. Still an INCREDIBLE VICTORY BY WALTER LORD.
Good work. I always remind myself, that at this point in history air navigation over water was sketchy at best and tactics were just being learned, mostly the hard way. You have to find that carrier to attack and then find your own small carrier to get back and land on.
“Yes, its complicated, I’m German”.....as raised in a German family, I understand!
This was really good. Thanks!
Another not well known fact about this battle is that VT-8 was in the process of receiving and transitioning from the obsolete TBDs to the first Grumman TBF torpedo bombers. Since they had only received six of the new, modern Grumman planes when the Hornet was ready to deploy, they formed a separate detachment that flew to Midway Island and launched from there against the Japanese carriers. The TBF group got chewed up like the TBDs because they were attempting to make low, slow torpedo attacks without fighter cover. Only one of the TBFs survived. Ensign Albert K. Earnest and ARM-3 Harry Ferrier survived and nursed a shot up TBF back to Midway. The turret gunner, SM 1st Class Jay Manning on their plane was killed.
I was able to hear Dusty Kleiss speak when I was stationed at Pensacola NAS.
Amazing man!
This was “covered up” after the action. Like the disastrous battles Halsey had with Typhoons (not the British airplane but rather the big storm).
Don’t forget the death of ace Thomas McGuire where they covered up how McGuire, in an advanced P-38, got shot down by a Japanese flight instructor in an obsolete Ki-43 Hayabusa.
@@gregorylumban-gaol3889 He wasn’t shot down. He lost control of aircraft and crashed. A maneuvering kill for the Japanese pilot.
@@xsu-is7vq Which happened because McGuire got cocky and wanted to be the top ace. Rookie mistake honestly.
@@gregorylumban-gaol3889 Pride cometh before the Fall, strikes yet again.
@@markfryer9880 McGuire quite literally gave the flight instructor every advantage he needed in a obsolete plane.
Aces, even they should fear teachers who are well versed in their professions.
Give this flight instructor an advanced Japanese plane with plenty of hours and quality materials, I bet he would school a lot of US aces.
just sounds like your average IL-2 sortie
I wasn't gonna say it but...
TBH I thought I was watching a documentary about the DCS Grim Reapers that were put back in time.
"What if..."
*Tilts the line from 239 degrees to 265 degrees on the map.*
"Perfect! Now fly there."
Excellent job, telling this story, ( which I never heard before).
It doesn't surprise me that Waldron peeled off with his squadron in the least.
Extremely interesting. It is becoming more and more obvious how incredibly lucky the Americans were in this battle, despite the tragic and completely unnecessary death of these brave pilots.
Probably what saved them was that they behaved completely improvised and illogical. This probably confused the Japanese who were very precise and rigid in their planning.
It wasn't luck on the American side, the Japanese carrier groups had come close to Midway islands and all the US carrier and land based recon planes had to do was sweep the now shrunk ocean and eventually find the Japanese ships. There is also the approach direction, the Japanese could only realistically approach Midway from the west or slightly off it, so this further reduced the American sweep and deployment points - of submarines and destroyers as sea scouts.
The Japanese were lucky too. Midway actually had a lot of shore based aircraft and B17s that attacked but hardly did any damage while taking a mauling in return. A wounded B17 ironically did a kamikaze style attack on one of the Japanese aircraft carriers that just missed. That was a lucky break for them.
@@gj1234567899999 B-26, not a B-17.
Confluence of events. The thing that made it happen was that the IJN left the bombs and torpedoes laying around. So when the very few planes that finally got a few hits the carriers were goners. Most ships of that size and remember they were not built as carries from the keel up, would have been able to overcome 3 or 4 bomb hits. The Yorktown being an example.
Waldron's unit probably couldn't maneuver their planes due to the overloading weight of their balls as they attacked the carrier group alone. Not that the Devestators had a chance to begin with
Related to this video, read "A Dawn Like Thunder" the History of Torpedo Squadron 8. Most interesting are the "OTHER SOLE SURVIVORS" of Torpedo Squadron 8! Days before the Battle of Midway, Torpedo Squadron 8 received 18 new Avenger torpedo bombers; however, none of the pilots were qualified to operate them off an aircraft carrier! 6 of the best crews flew their Avengers to Midway Island, and participated in the Forlorn Hope attack by the Marine, Naval, and Army aviators that attacked the Japanese carriers. 2 Avengers, and their crews survived, despite the aircraft being so riddled by bullets and flak, they could only be used to Study Why they survived!
They were ordered to accompany Ensign Gay on his War Bond tour.
The other pilots and crews (who didn't participate in the Battle of Midway) were ordered to Guadalcanal. They were the first Naval Aviators to be based on Henderson Field, in support of the Marines.
I knew about the flight to nowhere generally, but the video does a great job of providing a far more detailed understanding of what happened with the Hornet's air group at Midway.