Do we have a free will (ravi zacharias and Frank Turek VS RC Sproul and John Piper
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- čas přidán 16. 08. 2019
- This video is a combination of four videos. The video features Ravi Zacharias, Frank Turek, RC Sproul and John Piper. Each man explains his understanding of the term 'Free Will'.
#JohnPiper #RaviZacharias #RCSproul #FrankTurek
I know one thing for sure ,God have mercy on me a sinner🙏
Rocky Losco I don`t really understand what you are saying. You say you know one thing for sure but then you are not sure whether you’re saved or not. ”That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”(Romans 10 verse 9) “For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”(Romans 10 verse 11) You are saved if you believe in Lord and that he died for you.
J. W. H. When did I ever say anything about not knowing if I was saved lol,I know I’m saved and never said anything to that affect at all?
J. W. H. Ohh I see what your saying lol,your reading my statement wrong,you took my statement Literal word for word and it not meant to be taken like that,what I was saying in other words was” yes one thing I know for sure is that I want God to have mercy on me cause I’m a sinner,I didn’t mean it like I’m not saved so I need mercy,I was just saying that’s the cry of my heart as it should be for every be
Iiever of course ,the cry of a believers heart is” God have mercy on me a sinner” ,does that make it clearer for you?
J. W. H. 37 other folks understood what I meant,just saying friend🙂
I totally understand what both of you meant and are saying. Generally speaking, after all we are ALL sinners, some of us are justified by Jesus Christ. Therefore, God sees us through the love he has for His son. All the Glory to God!!!
I like the John MacArthur and Charles Spurgeon's answer too...
To reconcile the truths of God's Sovereignity and man's free will in Salvation is not my job, but to praise the infinite God for this deep truth that my finite mind cannot comprehend!....in the tone of Rom 9
Romans 9 is best to be compared to the brothers of Joseph, complaining that God uses their sin to sell Joseph into slavery (when they had already spent years hating Joseph). God used their sin to save them, all the sons of Israel. In the same vain, the man in Romans 9(the "interlocutor")is not "unsaved", we have no indication of that. Instead the interlocutor seems to be complaining of God using him, temporarily, with a hardened heart. This temporary hardening is called "judicial hardening", and is always shown as temporary and after MUCH choice.
Wow, I am blown away by Ravi's intellect. He really shines here.
I’ve worked hard to try and memorize as much of his answer here as possible. He blessed and equipped the church so much while he was alive, and even now as he is no longer with us.
No
So, how do we have free will if god knows what we are going to do? What did you learn form Zacharias response?
Piesho Nais foreknowledge has nothing to do with free will
@@piesho Here is what you are wrestling with. How do we have free will when God is in Sovereign control. That is kind of an awkward position. The actual position is God is SOVEREIGN and no matter your free will doesn't diminish or impact GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY whatsoever.
A.W. Tozer puts it this way: God is captain of the ship. You have the ability to run around the ship or even jump off but no matter what you do isn't going to change the course, speed of the ship nor affect it's destination.
Is God sovereign? Yes
Does man have a responsibility
to respond to Gods call? Yes
@Kris Price can man choose God ? If he could have then faith wouldn’t have to have been a free gift, it’s all of God, we only turn and choose God after we have been restored by the liberty of the Holy Spirit, we are wooed after we are frypanned in the head by God to believe, you can’t turn back if your dead in your sins and trespasses
robert marshall I agree Thank you
robert marshall The response I speak of is our daily battle against the desires of the flesh
@, So, when did God gave faith to the man who believe the gospel? I believe the gospel the first time I heard it... And I know that I have a sinful nature inherited from Adam and Eve after their fall....
Man ONLY has the ability to sin apart from God. Free will is impossible or humanity apart from Christ would be able to turn to Christ manifesting our own faith. If we had the will to turn to Christ on our own in any way, then we would have some righteousness of our own. Christ told the disciples He chose them, they didn't choose Him, to drive it deep within them they did nothing in themselves to come to Him. Faith is a gift and we receive it by grace (divine assistance). To be enslaved to sin is to be Mastered by sin and it shall never change until the Spirit of God opens humanities blind minds to hear and understand, to see and perceive His truth about how wicked we are to the very core of our beings and we cannot please God in the flesh. The word says its impossible, so it can't be impossible if we have free will and that would mean the word of God is fallible. Christ says, "ALL WHO the Father gives to Him will come." He doesn't say they will come to me by their own free will, because the only will of humanity is to sin, to love their own lives, to love for their own benefit, living for the approval of man and not for God.
Nothing has been disproved!!
Science proves God!!
Omgosh! Ravi is truly blessed. Thank You Holy Spirit of God for speaking thru theses godly saints.
Giving them utterance
Ravi was anything but a godly saint. Honestly there are only sinful men saved by mighty God.....God gets all the glory
@Thomas B Where did Calvin enter this discussion 😂? I disagree with your portrayal of Calvinism except the part where he uses it for his glory. Ravi certainly had free will to act within his nature which Calvin would say was preordained as elect or non elect. I don't believe Calvinism teaches that every specific action is preordained and it certainly doesn't teach that people have no freedom to choose actions. It teaches that God elects to save some and not others....which impacts the types of choices they will make from their condition but not predetermines every specific action with no freedom of choice or guilt. Calvinism is rough enough already but at least it allows for a person to be guilty of freely chosen sin within an unconverted or converted nature.....that is pretty easy to accept. Evenso, Election is a brutal topic. I understand the scripture used to support it but existentially it is a source a great consternation. Most Calvinists recoil and fight it in seminary before eventually being convinced that the Bible supports it. Some great preachers disagree. Some preachers just leave it alone.
lol that comment did not age well AT ALL
Wow, have not heard late Ravi like that.
He was strong in the LORD.
Bravo 🤗🤗
It seems to me that Sproul simply shifts the argument from "free will" to "liberty" . Piper's argument appears to be a little different. He focuses on just one choice: he says: "Do we have free will in choosing Christ as our Lord, Savior and treasure?" He says "we have free will, when we have ultimate self-determination." To that point, that makes perfect sense.
But, then Piper starts to talk about a concept of "decisive cause" and he imagines God saying: "What was the decisive factor in your belief in My Son? Was it My Grace or was it you?"
But, that is a false dichotomy. God designed it to be both. The fall is evidence of that. God's grace was on Lucifer, yet Lucifer got prideful and fell. God's grace was on Adam. Yet, Adam chose to disobey Him. If God built in free will which allowed for the fall, why would got eliminate the free will to choose Him after the fall? Certainly, we all need God's grace to take off the blinders imposed by satan in order to even have a choice. But, there is no reason to believe that choice isn't made available, by God, to all who are willing, especially since God says that it isn't His desire that any should perish, but instead desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth.
As Turek succinctly says: "if God wants everyone to be saved [like the Bible says] AND "if we don't have free will" THEN "why isn't everyone saved?" Turek insists the only reasonable answer to that is that some aren't saved, because they have been given the free will to reject Him. No other answer makes sense in light of those two verses in Scripture (1 tim 2:3-4 and 2 Pet 3:9) that suggest God desires all to come to Him.
I completely agree with your line of argument from the scriptures. If we do not have any choice at all then indeed it would contradict the desire of God for all to be saved, and it would also make God unjust whenever scripture says men will be condemned because of not believing and receiving Christ. I think one of the problems with the calvinist perspective is that they regard the choice to receive Christ as a 'work' that would contradict salvation by faith not by works. However, Romans 4 clearly shows how Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness without regarding it as a 'work'.
Yes I agree, if you believe in determinism then you have to ultimately say God failed (He desires all to be saved yet only saves some), God lies (He says He all to be saved but really not true) or that all will be saved.
👍
We have not lost him..his words coming from the Word...will always remain.
Love from the church in Philippines.
I do believe in Divine sovereignity and human responsibility
Same. I believe they go hand in hand
They are polar opposites and cannot exist together. If God determines everything we choose nothing and are thus responsible for nothing. If there is something we ARE responsible for, then God did not determine that. You cannot have it both ways at once and be a rational, sane person.
@@johnbreitmeier3268 Sovereignty is talked about in scripture just not the way that Calvinists define it. They define it as "meticulously controlling all events and determining them to take place". Sovereignty is biblical, just not the Calvinist version of it. That's a hyperliteralization of the text. But sovereignty is simply God having authority, not meticulous control, over all of creation. So no matter what free choices mankind makes, God it still the ultimate authority of all creation. He doesn't control all things, He simply remains the One above all things. That's a huge difference from Calvinism. So sovereignty does go hand in hand with free will, just not the Calvinistic interpretation of sovereignty. If a Calvinist believes in free will, they are a compatiblist, who believe mankind still has responsibility. No they don't have responsibility, because they only have the will to choose actions within the boundaries of sin. God doesn't let them choose otherwise. So that's not free will, that's the illusion of free will. Free will is the ability to choose to do otherwise, so if mankind does not have the ability to choose any action that is not a sin, then they have no free will. So you're 100% right. Calvinists cannot believe in free will, because their idea of free will is the ability the choose actions that are only within the boundaries of sin AS DECREEED BY GOD. So God is making them sin and thereby making them responsible for something He openly and actively MADE them do. It's no less deterministic then hard Calvinism. God still makes people sin against Him, against His own commands. That's not biblical. This is a false interpretation of scripture and they do not ever want to address it.
@@josephthomasmusic No Joe. The word sovereignty never appears in the Bible under any definition. And it is the definitions that are the biggest problem here.
1) Calvinism's definition is bad but it is also over 400 tears old. It is really just the definition of determinism which IS diametrically opposed to free will and in THIS discussion. we are stuck with the Calvinistic definition if we are going to have any debate at all.
2) If we cannot agree on what words mean, there is no point using them to try to communicate.
3) Your definition of sovereignty may be slightly better but it is pointless and useless for the current debate. God may be the "ultimate authority of all creation." but he certainly is not in charge and ruling over the earth in the time we are all living in. Satan is clearly running the place just like Jesus and the apostles said he is. Just turn on the news or walk outside your door and that is obvious. If this is "the Kingdom of God," I don't want any part of it.
4) God's will is certainly NOT being done here "on earth as it is in heaven". The Kingdom has NOT yet come or Jesus would not have told us to pray for its coming. God is currently NOT sovereign on earth as a whole right now. This is a world in rebellion. God rules in the hearts of a small minority of the earth's people..
5) God temporarily gave up authority/sovereignty over men and angels when he gave or loaned them free will to decide for themselves. That is necessary for free will to exist at all. There is no consent or free will where there is duress. One day, He will call in that loan and every knee will bow, but it isn't today. We DO have a choice and God is NOT currently sovereign in any real or practical sense or sin would be gone and all sinners would have repented as is his stated desire.
@@johnbreitmeier3268 That's a lot to respond to but I just have one question for you. Doesn't scripture say that all things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose? If that is true do you honestly believe that God is still not in authority and is using different events in people's lives to help bring them to Himself? You honestly don't think that that's part of God's will at work even in a world where it appears to you that he has withdrawn?
Ravi Zacharias, may he rest in the Lord. but what a beast he was in apologetics!
agreed
Is*
What a beast he IS in apologetics. If you believe in the entirety of scripture, then that includes eternity. Ravi isn't REALLY dead. He's just somewhere else. 🙂
@@percyjohnsoniv1794 Maybe we'll get to meet him one day.
@@jamesmccloud7535 Oh I'm certain we will. We literally have eternity!!!
Blessed.
He is quite humble I must say and sensitive enough even to his seemingly assailants, what grace, what a gifted mind and spirit.
Man. Ravi is legit. 👍
Legit adulterer and fraud. You'll know them by thier fruits..
No, he was a fraud
@@CE-DE Agreed.
This man really said "so since I'm gonna refuse to believe the Bible I want you to answer this question using the Bible
Two different conversations unfortunately. Of course we have free will, the reformed perspective is that we are slaves to sin, slaves to our own sinful desires, and unable to submit to God apart from a work of the Spirit.
Arminians agree with what you've written above, but believe God's grace was provided for all (in contrast to the Reformed belief that His grace is available only to some). Everyone is drawn to Christ (John 12), the work of the Spirit is the spreading of the gospel (which people respond to or not), and regeneration occurs AFTER conversion, not before.
And thats a biblical fact
No ! That is part of the Calvinist view . The rest of it is that GOD has predetermined everything , including rape and murder of children and that people be dead in sin , unable to believe the gospel of CHRIST . This is Sproul and pipers position on this and they've repeated this many times right here on UT along with James white n Jeff Durbin . Of course Calvinism is a lie that comes from augustinianism . Calvinism is a mannichean Gnostic and Islamic doctrine brought into Christianity by Augustine who was a Gnostic for 15 years . It's blasphemy against CHRIST .
@@decekfrokfr3mdxlol you just said arminians agree with what he said and then you proceeded to describe why and how they disagree 😂
Can’t have free will as a slave to sin. Can’t have free will as a slave to Christ. We have a will subject to God’s sovereignty, he is the only one with a free will who can do as he pleases without anything restraining his will.
Ravi and Frank Turek are talking about free will realeted to our actions in order to do good or bad things, while Sproul and John Piper are talking about the freedom of choosing Christ. We need to see the difference between these two conceps of free will.
I believe they four actually believe that we are responsible for our good or bad actions, but I didn't hear a response of Ravi and Turek about choosing Christ.
In christianity u free to bealive or not.. U free to do anything.. BuT dont forget responsibility of ur act..
You don't go to Hell because you don't choose Christ..You go to Hell because you sinned...And Christ freely gives you a way out through him...You can choose him or say nahh i'm off to hell. e.g imagine you're sick and dying...You can go to a Doctor for medical care...But you don't so you die...This is important...You don't die because you dont go to a Doctor, you die because you have a disease...Doctor can save you...But you choose to not go...Jesus saves...You're free to choose.
Jairo Herrera did satan choose to not follow Christ ?
Thank you. I was just thinking the same thing. This is a difference needed to be made
On Ravi's video, the question was about Science perspective questioning free will or determinism thats why his answer was more on philosophy.
You don't have to fully understand predestination to be completely happy and full of joy being a Christian of the Living GOD. Some things are none of our business..... if you have patience enough you can ask our creator when we see HIM face to face. AMEN
Amen. Ephesians 1, John 6, Romans 8, 9...
LORD (YHWH) Jesus CHRIST bless you Abundantly!
Yes I believe in "Predestination". In fact it is mentioned in Genesis 1:31. That is the preset destination. The arrival of the destination is in Revelations 21:3.
From Genesis 1:31 through the rest of the Bible is God making it Genesis 1:31 again. We still have a choice in trees. Adam and Eve had life and knowledge.
We have the choice of the tree of the Cross or the burden of the Law.
@@davidlaw2161 Did "gentiles" do works of the law without having the law? The tree has always been Trust. Trust in Gods definition of what good is or trust in your own definition of what good is.
We still have the same choice. Trust in Gods plan of salvation ( the cross) or our own works. Abraham's "works" weren't considered as righteousnes.
@@jthomas5226 Thus saith the Lord Jesus Christ, “None of My sheep have free will.”
I am forever praising and believing Jesus Christ and this is pleasing to God.
@@jthomas5226His Faith made him "A Friend of God" by God himself.
Bless Ethan, I hope his heart has opened to the lord.
Atheists have it really hard, but luckily they have the free will to make that saving choice, Christ.
@OTISIN GREENER You might wanna fix your CAPS Lock. And also if you think that these are all impossible and you don't believe in it, please don't spread hate over here. You wanna know the truth, we'll be more than happy to help you brother. God Bless You!
@OTISIN GREENER Idiot. Look up the universal design.
Greener, proves what I believe. He will never come to Jesus by his own understanding. However, he can be saved if the Lord changes his heart to repentance.
@OTISIN GREENER The one and only true God!
12:43 is the best ultimate answer that lines up well with Bible
Romans 11:32- O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgements, and his ways past finding out!
For who have known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counselor?
Or who have first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
For of him, and through him, and to him are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Your awesome bro for hooking up these 4 responses in one video. Good work my man!
We’re accountable because we sinned
This video was well put together.
Thank you.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Maranatha
2 different targets for free will, Ravi Zacharias and Frank Turek spoke about general free will, as a human characteristic and RC Sproul and John Piper spoke about specific free will, "can one chose Christ".
The first had a debate on free will versus determinism, the second conceded against determinism except when it's about salvation. Unfortunately for RC Sproul and John Piper you can't have both free will and determinism. Regarding salvation I believe that every man and woman since Adam were on a predetermined path to condemnation and hell because of sin. But when thru the preaching of the gospel, the Holy Spirit illuminates a person then for the first time in his life he/she has a the possibility to make a real free will choice to make, ether accept God's gift of salvation or reject it. The preaching of the gospel makes a person truly free, he is free to continue in bondage or embrace freedom in Christ.
Finally someone who understands that Piper and Sproul theology are contradictory and thus false.
Free will it's the same, it doesn't matter if is general or related to salvation
John Piper said he does not believe in that sense of free will
The argument will then be. Where does the choice to accept the gospel or even give it second thought or reject it come from. Not the fact we have the free will to choose it. But the source of which we decide it
@@Christian_counsel
Free will without the possibility of choice is mouth. Revelation gives man a choice.
Of course we have free will, but it is fallen and wicked.
MyPlace WasTaken Excellent. This has helped me. Thank you.
@Rodrick Evans ones will is free of course, but free only to act according to one's nature
Awesome music guys! Stay brutal and God bless!
Jon Pool
that is bull, people have been choosing between right and wrong good and evil from the time adam fell.
duet 28
No our will is not wicked at all.
our flesh is prone to sin, the will is the innate ability to choose between good and evil.
When Calvinists explains 'freewill'. It becomes complicated.
It's interesting to note that RC Sproul says that the Arminist free will is a pagan idea where if you study Augustine in his later life he switched from traditional early church fathers free will to Gnostic Manachisim ( pagan) interpretation of the scriptures - non free free will. John Calvin heavily relied on Augustinian theology and therefore got it wrong. Good book to reference is The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism by Ken Wilson.
Ernie Apostolas yeah Wilson’s been exposed by James white and others and shown them wrong.
I did a paper in seminary 30 years ago on Augustine and his concept of sinful nature and found the early church fathers before him believed man had free will. You’re right that Calvin is influenced by Augustine.
Very well explained Pastor John Piper. To God b d glory!
I love this!! Thank you for making this!
thank God for people like Rc Sproul and John Piper
WOW How Frank answered the answer was amazing!!
It was really bad. He goes from a football game to "being free to belive. You either freely choose to reject or to believe." Thats unbiblical, sir. Turek goes on to mock predestination yet he will avoid entering any debate on the topic of free-will.
Matthew 11.25-30 shows God’s sovereignty in choosing to reveal Himself to us AND presents the invitation for us to accept him.
I appreciate the contrast RC Sproul points out between freedom to choose what we want to do (i.e. sin), and complete freedom, as in not beholden to anything or anyone, including sin and God. It’s an important distinction to make, as one is true while the other is not.
So does God have complete freedom? Can He lie? Can He author sin?
@@evanu6579 Very interesting question. We know from his revelation to us that he does not contradict his character. We also know we does not make mistakes (again, if we follow his revelation). So we can safely say he would not go against his character, but could he if he wanted to?
He obviously cannot sin, as sin is any action against God. He cannot do evil, since he is what we use to define good and evil, whatever he does is where we receive our morality and sense of "good."
Whether God has complete freedom? I cannot say how one could not say yes. As the author and creator of all things, it is safe to say that God could do whatever he wants to our physical world. He could override any will of ours. The only reason he doesn't is because of his love.
That's a quick theological hypothesis.
George Botha
Thanks for your thoughts.
So if He would not go against His character then does He have free will if that’s how we’re going to define it?
Also, is that a “would not” or a “cannot”?
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
My main point is to show that the definition Calvinists use to prove man doesn’t have free will ends up making God not having free will.
God bless.
Evan U yes God has complete freedom. Psalm 115:3 “our God is in the heavens and does whatever He pleases.” No God cannot, again cannot, lie.
Mason T
So the Calvinist explanation of complete freedom is false? They claim that man does whatever he pleases as well.
I’ve listened to that first question three times now and every time I hear it, it makes me cringe
Why does it make you cringe?? Just curious, I thought Ravi did well in his response.
Christina Mitchell his question is just super loaded with no concise inquiry. It’s just some babbling about all the problems he has with Christianity. Not to be rude or anything but the question is a rollercoaster with many different points being made. He should’ve prepared better before hand of what he would ask Ravi.
It’s very cringe!! He was way to confident
Ravi and Frank are talking about about the initial willingness to follow God. God gives us the ability and responsibility to accept or reject him. After a person accept, then s/he is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Amen, Col 2:12 Faith leads to been born again - to be led by the Spirit - All God, all by grace.
If any man will come to him he'll not be turned away.
Very true. However we cannot come to Him unless He is drawn by the Father. Jesus said it in John “‘no one comes to Me unless the father who sent me draws Him” - and again “and anyone who comes to Me I will by no means cast out”. So what Jesus is saying is no one will come to Him unless He is drawn and once they come to Him He will not cast them out. We must look at Scripture in context.
You have to come to Him, (free will) and follow what the Bible (Yeshua) says you must do. +Humble but following the True Christ, not the false Calvinist Christ. You do realize this proves calvinists wrong?
@@abashedsanctimony154 I'm not sure I know what calvinism is.
@@bobbywilson5730 calvinism is the pride of man's knowledge that they studied the word of God (works) to prove they were elected from the beginning, saved from before they were born, while those who rejected Christ , were rejected from before they were born.
in essence , calvinism is the religion of pride
Calvinism changes the words , like *Ordained* to predestined, it's a false religion suited to lordship salvation over helpless people
The short answer is Yes, yes we have freewill, and no person will have any excuse for having rejected the free gift of salvation. Not having free will gives you an excuse.
Actually, the book of Romans brings both human free will and God’s sovereignty together and reconciles it. I’d go check out Romans, chapter 1-9.
Romans 9:19-20 disagrees with you
Romans 9:19-20 (ESV): You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
@@OJPrime he never chose gentiles over israelites. the israelites are still chosen and he never gave up on them. he is only now choosing to save gentiles too, to provoke israelites to jealousy. humble yourself!
You are stupid if you think you have free will.
@@ericv3975 You're quoting those verses, and the entire chapter itself, completely out of context. Romans 9 isn't saying anything about salvation of individuals; the whole book is talking about jew-gentile relations. Read Romans 9 only after having read Romans 1-8 and you will see Romans 9 doesn't teach determinism.
John Pipers exegetical comments win the day over the others theological ramblings. Especially the idea of faith is a gift. This is taught explicitly as the answer for why some believe instead of others in the scriptures, and is actually illustrated in the lives of the disciples and apostles. See Matthew 11:25-27 there Jesus thanks God for the faith of some and the blindness of others.
Here’s where I stand. I agree with Ravi and Frank about having the ability to chose to do what we want in the sense they were talking about. About the choosing Christ part, I’m kind of in the middle
““Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”
- Matthew 7:7
JESUS IS LORD!!!
Yes, meaning that if we don't knock or exercise our free will we will not be saved. good point
Kyle G
A person loves God because God first loved them. And God only call’s those that the Father has given Him.
@@gustavibrowzinbehrd3871 Amen! We come to the Son, because the FATHER draws us to HIM (the WORD) - John 6:44! God JESUS (YHWH) bless you Continually!
@@gustavibrowzinbehrd3871 make sure that we understand that men have the decision whether to accept God's grace or not. yes it was/is God who did first show us His love towards ALL men, but its up for men whether to accept it or not. men do have freewill.
@@fleminglim9122 Amen. No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws Him, then look...
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 12:32 KJV
Then calvinists will quote Romans 9 forgetting we must read this in the context of the whole thing look at this...
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that HE MAY HAVE MERCY upon ALL.
Romans 11:30-32 KJV
May the Lord bless you and anyone who sees this, these discussions are important but at the end of the day we must continue to walk with our Savior and fight the good fight of FAITH.
Pelagius said there was no original sin. Augustine said there was original sin. Not whether or not we had free will.
Free will was aquired after sin & not before Adam & Eva disobedience (from the test given to them) , doing so, they refused God's governing over them and, aquiring instead our own battles & responsabilities and gorverning ourselves. Where freedom is practised responsabiities are numerous & so from the results its plain to see ''we can't govern ourselves yet
You're self evidently someone who doesnt not understand the entire context of that debate. Because the will of man was very much so apart of that discussion. Impossible to miss actually. Why don't you look up the council of orange.
We were created with free will but our problem is our human nature prefers evil to good, so we have made the world the way it Is.
abslutely beautiful explaination
So my understanding is this, forgive me if I’m wrong...
God obviously determines who is actually saved and who is not. Not every person who calls out the Lord is saved due to their corrupt nature. Furthermore, God, being sovereign, determines who accepts Jesus and has to grant our salvation and repentance because we don’t save ourselves and cannot repent unless God says, in a nutshell, “I allow you to be saved and grant you the ability to repent from your sinful nature.”
That''s what Calvinists believe. Most orthodox Christians would disagree with them
Happy35 It makes it seem as if even if you believe and have faith in Christ, God can still say “Eh, you’re not saved.”
People that are saved go to heaven whether calvinists or armenians. People that are not saved go to hell whether calvinists or armenians.
Evangelical Gospel Pretty clear to me.
@@brenoricardo1450 Repent and beg for forgiveness from the Lord and perhaps He may still yet save you from such blasphemous words!!!!
@@brenoricardo1450 You would dissolve before even getting close to My Lord
@@brenoricardo1450 You are a fool. Yet it surprises me not for such is the way of the natural man. In Adam all die. You must repent. The patience of the Lord will not last forever. He will be glorified in all things: whether by your repentance and salvation (which I pray that he is pleased to bring about) or by your eternal damnation. May His will be done.
You are just plain stupid how many religions are they
Goodness. I loved this video.
This video posits that these men’s views are in opposition. What their answers show is that we humans are each only able to understand a small piece of the eternity, the mystery that is G-D. How exciting that because of that, we who love and follow Jesus will get to spend all of eternity learning new things about our Creator and all the gorgeous glorious creation.
Hallelujah.
I WORSHIP A RIGHTEOUS, LOVING, JUSTFUL AND MERCIFUL GOD WHO DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. GOD BLESS YOU.
I think there is no point arguing back and forth on whether or not we have free will. The important thing to understand is that we live as though we have free will; That's how we live our lives, even if we are being controlled by society, environment or our own preferences and impulses.
At the same time, we are to understand that, us working to choose God is infact, a work of God in us. Therefore, ultimate glory goes to God for our salvation. Piper precisely points that out.
Take this away anyone who reads my comment:
• Live as though you have free will because you have a moral responsibility to do right.
•One day, when we stand before God, we will be held accountable for our deeds.
•Work in your will to choose Christ every time in every situation. (One day, you will realise God has been working in you for your good).
•Don't let this issue of whether or not you have free will be an excuse for your sin. Remember, you can overcome sin in Christ. There are people who have overcome sin by choosing not to sin. All glory to God!
Very well said
Sebastian Turman yes, the part where you said, “there are many people who have overcome sin by choosing not to sin” shows that we indeed have free will.
The moment when God gives us his gift for us to believe in Jesus, then that would mean it is the part of free will by accepting it or rejecting it. But Piper did discuss that it is Gods grace that breaks rebellion, our blindness, and deadness and see christ. At this point, it is also a part where he is in control in our thought, or feelings and what changes us, and this would mean its not really about us.
So the ultimate question is, how can we be responsible if everything relys on Gods grace as a gift to change us? Or should the question be, “we have to be responsible in trusting God as a free will before God gives us gift. So if we can choose to sin, that should mean that it is a free will. But piper states that we love darkness, blinded, deadness, because we naturally are without Gods grace, so it technically cant be a free will (i think), until God gives us his gift.
Paraphrase: we are naturally dead so its natural for us to sin. So this means its not always free will. Or maybe it is still a free will, but only based on sinning or not, because why would God punish us if we had no free will and predestined and we there couldve been no way to avoid it.
Secondly, it is only Gods grace (gift) that changes our hearts and minds entirely. So Piper goes to say, “how are we responsible entirely if God’s grace sets us completely from our deadness”, other than our free will to sin or trusting God. So i think i now know that it is a free will because we can choose to sin or not even if we are dead in our sins. Then it is God’s will to give you grace and gift to overcome if you did good by self determination just as Piper had mentioned. Piper also mentioned that self determination is the ultimate, but there are only two category:
(Free will to trust God and avoid sinning, the rest is Gods work.) Ultimately we have free will, but until God is happy about good deeds we have done by avoid sinning or trusting him, thats when God gives you complete change of heart and mind as a gift. (I think)
The scripture says:
“With Man it is impossible, but with God anything is possible”. - Matthew 19:26
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” - Hebrews 11:6
Thejaselhou Kire, What is your point of starting a new conversation referring to our conversation? Do you know that if you start a new conversation, the you tube will not notify me? So I just notice your response when someone commented on my post regarding our conversation... You said: ''I think there is no point arguing back and forth on whether or not we have free will. The important thing to understand is that we live as though we have free will; ''=>>>>> RESPONSE: You even err more if you DO NOT believe that God give us a free will BUT live as though we have a free will, because you are opposing God....
Joseph Durraz I am not being arrogant or ignorant. I am trying my best to live by what I understand with utmost clarity. I respectfully disagree with you and I don’t think there should be a problem even if my point of view isn’t the same as yours. We are all entitled to our own views. Willing to introspect yet not fully convinced. Over to you.
@@thejaselhoukire7331, I agree with you my friend...You have every right to believe what you want to believe because God did not programmed you to disagree with me... Even Judas betrayed Jesus by his own free will....
Creating the excuse that God has determined our choices because He knows them in advance is a really desperate attempt to get out of responsibility. There's no possible way to prove our choices are not our own. We do what we want as much as we can. That's just a painfully obvious fact.
As for the Calvanist argument about choice with God, I agree with scripture thats says we can't come to Him unless He draws us. But there's nothing that says we can't refuse Him. That's where I think we have a choice.
Well said, trucker Pete. By the way, I am using my free will to type this. Lol.
John 12:32, Jesus said if He is lifted up from the earth (on the cross), He will draw all people to Himself.
Super 5 point calvinists make me scratch my head sometimes. It's just not logical. Love John Piper but I hear people reject Christ all the time who have been drawn to him as they themselves claim. Why else is there a need to be sanctified if we didn't have freewill to reject Him even after accepting His grace?
@@JediPeaceWalker This verse really hurts the irresistible grace argument. Here we have God's will and man's will being exercised at the same time.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
" Matthew 23:37
@@festushaggen2563 But they're just going to argue that we're taking that verse out of context. Only the people during that time could reject God. We can't reject Him now anymore. 2020, believe whatever you want.
Our will is to be submitted to the indwelling Holy Spirit! Now it's not our will but the will of God working in us and through us to do what God desires of us! Jesus paid a heavy price for the gift of His Holy Spirit to dwell in us! Shame on us to neglect or distort the gift! Praise Jesus and Hallelujah to Him alone!
I don't understand why vs. Was used here. I agree with all four responses, frank and ravi focused on revealing truth to unbelievers to believe, while last two purely theological christianese talk for advanced academic believers ( often my preferred). All four answers beautifully complimented each other according to their context.
They are agreeing, i suggest the person who posted this, watch again and see what they are actually saying
100%. It's beautiful to hear different perspectives but still the same conclusion.
Actually they don’t! All four
agree on freewill from a human/physical mental position but Ravi and Frank believe this includes the spiritual side as well. RC and John believe that your freewill is dead spiritually in choosing Christ ( Ephesians 2:1-10. Etc...)
@@CDAinVA you cant be free to sin in you are a christian. Makes sense.
r.i.p he was a great teacher
Which one?
Based on the last answer, it would seem we need to narrowly define the question, because in each case, there is a different question that is being asked, thus the difference in answers.
If there is no Free Will, then there is no God that was and is said to be good and just.
Yet here we are, contemplating on it freely by our own will.
I have come to see this topic of Free Will vs Predeterminism as like a driver on a trip using a map.
Take the driver of a car. The road is set before him and he has a destination in mind. He has a map to guide him. Now, he has the freedom to choose how he reaches his destination. If he is going north and his destination is east, he has the freedom to turn right immediately, drive his car through a random person's yard, crash through the house, and continue barreling on. However, powers beyond his control, namely physics and the government, have consequences for such an action. On the other hand, if he waits until he reaches an intersection, he can make a right hand turn to reach his destination without the harmful consequences of violating laws.
I use this analogy to explain our relationship with God. He has set a path before us. When we go against his will, which we can choose to do, it is like the driver who decides to go off road and drive through a person's yard.
What does this mean? Do we have free will? To a degree, yes, but not totally free. The term "free will " is a bit misleading in my mind. However, I do not hold to the belief that God determines our every move. I believe in a balanced view between the two.
LordGrahck
Our Destination is dependant upon the choices we make.
The last pastor makes it sound like God really created a broken creature.
That's because calvinism (reformed theology) is unbiblical and makes God the author of evil. In fact, their god has created people without the capacity to seek, hear or even respond to their god's commands - for which he condemns them.
Sproul is making a critical point here. He is no as engaging a speaker as Ravi, but the content of what he is saying is so important. Don't dismiss it quickly because you might not find Sproul to be engaging. The idea is that we have free will but it is limited. It has been affected in every way by the Fall and our prior conditioning.. Only God has perfect free will, in that He can choose completely independent from prior conditioning or a fallen state. We are not born with an open heart that does not have a bias. Our hearts are darkened toward God by sin and corruption and our natural inclination is to choose to follow our hearts desires in that way. If God, by His mercy, changes our heart only then do we have the capacity to use our free will to respond and believe.
Good show Frank!
Great video. Thanks for the time producing it!
I just want to add what my thoughts are.
Regarding Piper explaining Faith or believe is granted....the bible teaches about what faith is in Hebrews 11:1
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. “ once you see the thing you hoped for it becomes reality and it is not faith anymore”
We have no evidence of how the world was formed, we have faith and hope that the world was formed by the God of the bible.
Hebrews 11:6 but without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Rom 10:17 says that faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God
Noah first was selected by God for the task of building the ark because God felt he was a good man. So God spoke to Noah. Noah heard God’s voice and chose to believe the word and was obedient to the word and that saved his life and his family’s lives.
God first spoke to Abraham and He believed. I wondered if Abraham would have continued to try having a child with Sarah if he did not hear God’s promise to him. Did Abraham freely choose to obey the promise.
Faith comes to a person after we receive a personal word for which we have to trust God. Jesus made a promise to all people. Rom 10:13-17 That whoever believes upon Him shall be saved. If you take that promise and personalized it and trust that promise you will be saved.
The bible states that faith is a gift of God.
@@ScottPuopolo Amen
David Law hi David what do you mean with lucky...it was so long ago I made my comment regarding the video...I will have to listen to the video again to know what the content was again... anyways man It probably had to do with faith... where did I miss it?😎
Always open to listen and see where I missed it
youn missed up stating God felt noah was a good man..God chose him..it is Gods mercy and grace that He choses a person to beleiveed in HIM or to do a task ,service to honor HIm.our faith and repentance comes from God not to ourself,,,as stated before we are morally corrupted,,from the fall,,dead in our sins and trespasses.
@@regeneratedservantph4994 I also agree our faith come from God. God gives or provides the word and when we hear it preached or as we read it it produces faith. So God provides what we need for faith. Regarding repentance I also agree God provides kindness , mercy and grace that moves us to repent or at least starts the process for us to change our minds about how we view God. God is the one changing the heart. I do however feel we have a responsibility to bring the flesh into submission. Not that our flesh benefits anything eternally but our flesh or body is a temple for the Holy Spirit and God chooses to dwell in a human body. We are not robots. We can have fellowship with God. Behind the pages or the book there is a Loving Father and His Son wanting relationship and fellowship through the work of the Holy Spirit inside our bodies.
May Father YAHweh bless your understand and show you His Resurrected Son. YAHwehShua
Free will then has to do primarily with our liberty to choose to prefer what we like, delete in, cherish and love. This to a point that all these would be a reflection of what we truly worship. Better said, Supremely Treasure”!
God already knew what that was before he created us.
Gods will is for you to have free will..freewill is your grace
give a hungry starving lion the choice of eating a juicy peice of meat or a banana. we know that lion is going to choose the chicken even if we freely allow the lion to make whatever choice it wants. Thats how the argument of god allowing us to freely whatever we want to do works. God knows what we want to choose "freely". That makes it purely deterministic.
Bobby Mathews that's right. a sinful men can only choose sins.
Only the work of Holy spirit that make us desiring God's will.
Even after becoming a believer, one can walk in the Spirit only by the power of Holy Spirit.
If it without Him, only our free will, can we make it?
If in a life of a believer, the free will intercepted by the Holy Spirit is a need to live a Godly life,
how can a sinful man's free will don't need the Holy Spirit's interception in order to him to see the Christ for who He really is?
You can’t compare a Lion to a human being Bobby, your analogy is unfortunate. A Lion has been pre-wired to be a carnivore, they don’t choose to eat grass and will starve in a garden full of vegetables. Humans haven’t been pre-wired in the sense of will. That’s why despite the fact that we all have canines in our mouth people still choose to be vegan.
TheWarKing27 Starve a vegan for 40 days and give them the choice of eating a piece of fried chicken or NOT. Guess what? The will to survive will definitely override the free will to be vegan 100% of the time. A starving lion might choose to eat a banana rather than having nothing.
Circumstances forces beings to do deterministic things. The role of circumstances and genetics in the decision making processes has to be convinently ignored to make an argument for free will. The only reason you are eating the food you are eating is because you have a stomach that can digest such foods. If your stomach could digest rock, then we might have gotten more choices to eat.
I say if you can create an ideal circumstance then free will is possible.Someone like Ravi Zacharias might say you have free will because you are free to ask such questions. No we were not free to ask such questions. We can ask only since our circumstances enabled us to ask.
For eg we had to be trained in English,have a stable net connectivity etc and a billion other factors ,if not more.
The idea of free will itself is something you have got from someone.Even if you came to it by yourself english language is somebody else’s creation. Language evolves over time and is finite. Our scope of communication is so limited. So there is nothing free about it. You get it, if you get it🤐🤧
So what about the man who chooses to be faithful to his wife in times of temptation? Or the man who dedicates his life to helping those in need?
Why would lost men choose good?
I thought that Calvinism teaches that God ordains all things whatsoever come to pass. Wouldn’t that include the desires of men? If every action of every person were ordained, then there isn’t any room left for someone to make a free choice. You must be manipulated to fulfill every single act that God prescribed for you.
God bless
Bobby Mathews
Your definition of free will makes it so that God Himself doesn’t have free will.
Is that what you believe?
I fully agree with R C Sproul's answer-reply here. Awesome! At least he gets it right and proper.
I wish more people would make their thinking clear like RC
It really doesn't matter what you gentlemen think. What effects each person is how they view it. For most of us the question is a mute point. We make our choices with little regard for religion. It's an interesting philosophical argument but of little or no actual daily purpose.
Your personal thoughts about: "All is predetermined". That's an option of free will, relative, but still free will
Javier Rascón it can be the other way too. There is nothing “free” about having personal thoughts.Thoughts are deterministic. Thoughts come out of nowhere. You have no control over them. You can never “make” a thought. Make=Prepare from nothing.
Thoughts are just data recycling only because of many causations. Constant oxygen supply to your brain is facilitating thoughts along with a billion other factors.If you dont drink enough water you wont be so free to make thoughts. So thoughts are the effect of many such causes which makes them deterministic. We dont have free will regardless of the existence of god almighty
If all is predetermined, your personal thoughts on the topic are also predetermined. The god of Calvinism is a callous, hypocritical tyrant who sets you up for failure (sin), orders you to do good (well-knowing that you will fail), then punishes you for what you had no choice in.
If you set up your car to ride into the lake - downhill, brakes removed (except for the hand brake, but with a twist to let the cable snap as soon as it's loosened) and the steering locked in dead-ahead; then tell your son to park the car... and then scold and punish him for letting your car go into the lake while you had expected him to go put it in the garage...
That is the God of the Calvinist. He has already decided who's sinning how and when and therefore going to the lake of fire.
Extreme Calvinism takes it even further: He has already decided who goes to heaven or hell, and nothing you do changes that - saints can burn and unrepentant sinners enter heaven, because He has decided before time who is Saved and who is damned.
Beware Calvinism. It is paganism, fatalism at the core with a Christian veneer.
There is no free will period
@@dannyvalastro2974 I take it that you are a Calvinist or a Hawking-groupy.
Smith hey what do you think this is get a brain this is calvinism jesus said too Peter before the cock crows three times you will deny me not maybe you will deny me but you will deny me you cant change what jesus said too peter god knows what Peter will do before he even dies it Peter has no free will period nor did Judas if you can6 see that you better apply for a brain
The premis of the first question is false
Ravi is actually saying if we are determined, there is no truth in what we will do or decide. Like automatons, who don't have the truth of their will, if they really want what they're programmed to do, no one knows the absolute truth, bc they don't have freedom to know or express it.
There is no true love or faith, if it's not our innate decision to make.
If God is the one who decides for our actions and decisions, we are just like automatons.
Some controlled to decide to heaven, and majority controlled to hell.
Where is truth in their actions?
This alone is a dilemma to our conscience screaming, "How could this be just?"
Makes perfect sense to me.
I think it's fabulous that Ethan seems to have everything compartmentalized and he's very confident that God doesn't exist. But, he struggles with free will and a God, who is obviously out there, dictates everything in the universe. The second half of his question nullifies the first part. What he's really saying is "there is a God, but do I have free will under Him?" Lol
Romans 11:22-23 is what I would realy like to hear from John Piper on.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
jaction3 www.desiringgod.org/messages/look-at-the-kindness-and-the-severity-of-god
Pipers view
The first questions from the first man are solid and true.
These Theists need to stop fooling their flock, for good feels.
Why should they stop doing anything. Especially if it feels good...
❤️
No man has ever made a choice that he didn’t want to make.
That doesn't make it a "will". It's a coined phrase by Calvinists, but it still doesn't amount to creature that has a "will".
I didn't want to go to work today, but I did.
Emilio Plaza so you chose to go to work.
@@hilarioushen4164 Exactly, i made a choice i didn't wanna make.
Slaves didn't want to make that choice 🤔
“My name is Ethan Keizer.”?And then everything else he said is gibberish.
Ikr, what an arrogant, pompous, and selfish person he is.
@@rtx8026 we fight against powers and principalities, not flesh and blood. Ethan is a man who does not known God like we do. In order to be useful to God in ministry towards pagans such as Ethan we must have a mindset and heart of love, not a heart full of hate where we spew insults about them either to their face or in our thoughts, we must be loving.
Why does Calvinists have to redefine freewill every time before answering the question?
Maybe that’s the question we should ask them first
The guy who asked the question in the beginning is now on TikTok tryna get possesed lmao
Lmao, link?
@@MarcanthonyTho vm.tiktok.com/ZMeGJchEE/
I think a part of him really wants to find God but is just going down the wrong path
I think the fact that this man, in the begin is so angry proves deep down he knows God exits.
I dont get mad at the tooth fairy becuase I know she doesn't exit.
What did he say that makes you think he was angry?
I agree with what is said here, but the real issue that nobody touched is "irresistable grace". Grace can be resisted. The Spirit can be saddened. Yes, we need grace as an underlying choice. God had to make the way to Himself in order for us to choose it, but we could also have chosen to not choose life with Him, as most people do. And we couldn't have chosen the Way to the Father if He hadn't made it. But He has, and now there's grace too! We have the responsibility AND the grace is there freely for ALL, so we CAN choose life, or choose to reject Him.
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Romans 8:30
@@kcmartin5958 Read the previous verses. Those who He knew... And He says to the unbelievers "I NEVER KNEW you". #contextmatters
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. - Romans 8:29
Previous verse doesn’t help you much either
@@kcmartin5958 Help me? The whole passage is written to "those who are in Christ Jesus". It's not concerning salvation, but the purpose and power in the life of a believer.
Ed&Charlotte CuevasRempel you can’t get around the salvific language in that text. Predestined as in chosen in Him before the creation of the world. Called which John 6:44 says no man can come to Him unless drawn by the Father. Justified by faith. And glorified being the climax of our salvation. God has made the wicked for the day of trouble and we are chosen in Him before creation.
The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. - Proverbs 16:4
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. - John 6:44
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, - Ephesians 1:4-5
God is sovereign and he allows us (His sovereignty) to do what we want
So the more we fall in to sin we get weak to it. That’s scary we must pull away from it.
Romans 9 : 15 - 24
Now read the next chapter, Romans 10.
"If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved. As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Romans 10:9-13 NLT
This title is very misleading, it leads the viewer to believe that these influential men are going to have different views while being from the same group. Ravi and Turek take on a completely different angle of predestination than Piper and RC. The first two take on the fact that humans do indeed have free will and are not pre-wired to make all decisions like accepting Jesus, choosing a career, etc. The other two take on the question of “Is it my free will that I had the OPTION to choose Jesus”, and in that case it is no. Only the Spirit can provide this option, and the person DOES have free will to deny or accept. They are both extremely important questions but to make it appear as though they are different in their views is untrue or unintentionally misleading.
Ravi Zacharias does not hold to either Armenianism or Calvnism so it is inaccurate to say he holds the same views on predestination and free will with John Piper and RC Sproul.
Calvinists say believers had no choice but to choose God because God elected them first. Ravi Zacharias holds the paradox view of believers being saved both because they responded freely and because God elected.
These two views are not one and the same.
El†eras El†eras you are correct that Calvinists have a different point of view when it comes to predestination than say a Ravi or similar apologist but to say that believers “had to choose God” is against the Biblical teaching that the Spirit provides the invitation for everlasting life through the belief in Christ but can still be rejected by man. If it were the opposite the world would be all Christians because the Holy Spirit would force the truth upon them and create their acceptance.
@@jordanmcfarland4421 Irresistible Grace and Double Predestination are debatable topics that are far from being settled.
The idea that the Holy Spirit forces the truth upon the elect is itself not settled given that one can easily produce clear verses that prove God is not being duplicitous when He implores us to choose. The fact that clear and simple biblical verses have to be redefined in convoluted ways to fit the Calvinist perspective is a clear sign that its position on the matter is not absolute.
Regardless this is irrelevant to the point I am making which is that the paradox view which Ravi Zacharias holds is clearly not one of Irresistible Grace and Double Predestination, nor is it Determined and therefore this video is making an accurate distinction between the positions of the two sides.
Regardless of their views they are all of one body in Christ that is true but this video is dealing with different doctrines that have significant consequences for those who hold them.
El†eras I have to say I admire your intellect, you make very good points. My initial concern just stemmed from this video to the average viewer looks like it is a complete battle of doctrines when in reality it is what you described as “one body” which is true. If I were to make a comment off of yours I just would say that objective truth must not be denied. While there may be several arguments and debates about principles of doctrine, the Bible has one true interpretation. Personal interpretation depending on a reader’s own experiences and views can run amuck of objectivity.
We have a limited amount of freewill. How much depends on many different factors.
"... man's choice is limited at every hand. First, man is born in sin; that is, certainly not wholly free. Take, next, the facts of life. In the first place man can exercise no choice at all as to the time and place of his birth -- facts all important in deciding his religious belief, and through that his character; no choice as to the very many and very complex hereditary influences moulding his entire life, though most often he knows it not; affecting for good or for evil every thought, every word, every act of his; no choice at all as to the original weakness of his nature, and its inherent tendency to evil. More, still, man can exercise no choice at all on this vital question, whether he will or will not have laid on him the awful perils, in which, on the popular view, the mere fact of life involves him. Further, man can exercise no choice at all as to the strength of that will he receives; no choice at all as to the circumstances that surround him in infancy and childhood, and which colour his whole life; man has no choice as to the moral atmosphere he must imbibe in those early years of training, which colour almost of necessity, the whole after life. 'But a creature cannot' you reply, 'choose these things, from the very nature of the case.' That, I answer, only proves my point, that a creature cannot be wholly free, from the very nature of the case. *What the facts point to is that God grants a limited freedom, intending to train man, his child, for the enjoyment hereafter of perfect freedom.*
The vast extent of human ignorance also confirms the view that the final destinies of the universe are not placed in man's keeping. We know nothing absolutely, we know but appearances -- phenomena. We are acquainted with the outsides of things at most, with the insides never. We talk of life, of matter, but these and all other things are in themselves to us unknown and unknowable. Everything we do, every object we see, every natural operation is to us incomprehensible. *Are these the hands to which a wise Creator is likely to commit absolutely the awful issues of [heaven and hell]?"*
--Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ 1905, Annotated by Robin Parry edition
People come to open mikes and ask questions that have been asked and answered for centuries. But you can tell they think they just came up with something new that is going to stump everyone.
The reformed position always explains the Bible more accurately then anything else
Not even close.
Facts, notice how arminians and a lot of non reformed people make arguments without giving any scriptural quotation but just ideas and philosophical rambling? I was an Arminian until I realised arminians believe their own opinions about free will but calvinists accept what the Bible clearly says about our will being enslaved to sin
@@jhausa8274
Is your will now enslaved to righteousness?
As one who is a slave to righteousness can you still sin and desire to sin? what makes you think one who is a slave to sin can’t do acts of righteousness and desire to be righteous?
@@jhausa8274
John 12:39 ¶ Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Could have these believed had they not been supernaturally prevented from doing so?
We as humans love and forgive our own children yet calvanism believes God is more angry and grudge holding than human beings. Disgusting.
You are so right Jill. Calvinism is the doctrine of the devils!!! Disguised as intellect. Folks beware, lest you become too wise. What a tangled web of confusion we weave when we start to believe OUR OWN wisdom. Calvinists need to stop intellectualising the verses they take out of context, and just focus on the simplicity of the gospel message...."whosoever will..." "CHOOSE.. this day..." etc.
@@heels-villeshoerepairs8613 Praise the Lord. Perfectly said.
Thank you and praise the Lord that common sense and reason is easily achieved by those who trust His Spirit and allow God set us free from confusion. The truth can "set us all free" from the bondage of isegesis (reading into scripture what is not there.)
and he Jesus did not let himself be put off by false and flattering promises.. AMEN
Salvation is a gift. God will not make people receive it Mr. piper.
It is free will to receive the gift:)
Yes we do have a free will otherwise I wouldn't be writing this comment right now. But God is Sovereign even over our free will. That's what God is.
You are nuts we have no free will period if God knows what we will do beforehand that means he knows what we woll fo beforejand
So if you go kill someone it's not your fault because God knew what you were going to do? RIIIIIIIIGGGHT
We determine our own destiny. God gives the consequence wether heaven or hell. The teacher doesn't flunk you, you choose either to study or not study to pass the exam. We have the freedom to do anything we want however there is consequences for our actions. It's called being responsible for our eternal souls. God provides Christ for us to hear believe and obey. Same principle with the teacher, he provides all tools necessary for you to pass the exam. The question is do we want heaven or hell? Do we want to pass the exam for a better future or not study and flunk for less opportunities in our lives. Some people say we don't have free will because they don't want to be held accountable for their actions, if that's the case they should learn the golden rule. Let us learn to love God and we will see that in Christ our free will, will be to love Him freely. That is giving Him back the love He gave us first in Christ. God bless you all.
Hell cannot exist in a scenario that describes free will because free will is not dictated on fate nor consequences. Besides that, free will cannot exist if our future is pre determined by an all knowing god.
The reasons we deny free will is not because we don't want to be held accountable, it's because you WILL be held accountable. That's not what free will is. For me to have free will in order to choose heaven or hell, I would have to be assured that both places actually exist. There's no evidence of that.
Exactly. That’s what confuses people with how God knows everything but we also have Free Will. Although it’s quite simple. God knows we’re going to sin does that mean we don’t have Free Will to still sin? Yes exactly.
There are a lot of Ifs in the Bible that it is in our best interest to try (exert our will) and mind them.
Justin A
deut chapter 28
Most people don't define terms. I highly doubt you would get Ravi to say that we have libertarian free will; which is what most people mean by "free will". It helps to define what the will is. If you haven't done that, you probably shouldn't talk about it. Read Jonathan Edwards' "freedom of the will".
Most people mean libertarian free will, which is the ability to make choices without any prior inclination, predisposition, or prejudice. That's actually impossible.
What the bible teaches is that we have a creaturely will. We have a will, but it's enslaved to, and determined by, our desires... And we desire evil. I dare anyone to show me a choice that's made spontaneously. It's man's last desperate attempt to say that everyone is generally good, and justify himself. The bible doesn't say that. It says no one seeks for God. Frank Turek is not standing on scripture. He makes God sound like a fortune teller; who simply sees the future. When God says, in the bible, "I declare the beginning from the end."
It's in God's decree that we should be responsible. They're not conflicting, really. You have the freedom to make a choice, according to you desires.. But whatever you end up choosing, God decreed to happen before the beginning of time. We don't have to try and reconcile that. I don't believe the human mind can.. And unless you think the human mind is the ultimate authority in the universe, then it's okay that we don't understand, because there's a good God that does.
Thank you for expounding it with clarity. Haven't come across one as clearly explained as yours.
Very well said. I agree with @Thejaselhou Kire. I haven't found an explanation like this that so concisely puts the point across while remaining true to scripture and not keeping out anything relevant. Praise the Lord for he is working in you.
No one cares to discuss the subject of God being all knowing and infallible. Which means whatever He knows will happen must happen no matter what, we can't avoid it. We have a choice, but He knows what we will choose. So we can't really change our outcomes because that would mean God is not all knowing. We are essentially stuck in what He knows we will do. Nothing we decide will ever change it. So much for free will. If we personally knew we were going to hell, nothing we do can change it. Because God can not be wrong and He can not lie. We're stuck. It's the biggest paradox in the universe. We have a choice, that is already set and can't be changed. So being aware of our outcome still won't affect our choice.
@@hywelniiazumahnelson By what standard is that true? You say there's nothing "good" about the God I described. What is "good"? Who decides? Do you? In order to call something good, you must appeal to a universal standard of good and evil. Who decides that? You? What standard are you appealing to? Last time I checked, God decides what's good and evil; according to His character. You may not like it, but that doesn't make God any less good, and it doesn't make what I said any less true.
I'll tell it to you like Paul does in Romans 9: Does the Potter not have a right to the clay? If God made you, do you now get to decide what He does with you? Who are you, O man, who answers back to God?
@@hywelniiazumahnelson Also, what you said in your comment is a truth statement. You didn't actually refute anything I just said. You said God is not good; which, without a standard to appeal to, just means "I don't like it.". But, "I don't like it" doesn't prove anything. Give me biblical proof that I'm wrong. I'm willing to admit it if I'm wrong. However, you have to provide biblical proof that would suggest otherwise. If you don't, you've done nothing more than just state your opinion.
Both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong, they are extremes that stray from what the Bible actually teaches. As always (I seem to find), the narrow path leads right through these polarizing viewpoints and theologies. The Biblical clearly describes a sovereign God and clearly describes man that has a free will to choose and reason. The Biblical marriage between Christ and born again believes is exactly that, a “marriage” between a groom and His bride, both have responded to and chosen each other. A meeting of the wills. God does not wish that any should perish, He either says this in truth or He doesn’t. And btw, the elect and those predestined as elect if you will, are those that are “in Christ”, when you are in Christ all the promises apply.
I have a hunch that yours is the unexpected Truth that will shake the "Theological" world
Out of interest, what are bible references which show we have free will? Genuine question, as I haven't found many that are clear. Would like to be better informed :).
@@Callum679 Here are a few:
John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.)
Romans 10:9-10 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Go back to the Beginning Gen 2:16-17 God’s instructions, then Eve, beguiled by the serpent, choosing to disobey God and eat from the tree of knowledge (Gen 3).
James 1:13-16 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
Joshua 24:15 - And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
1 Timothy 2:4 - Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Revelation 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Leviticus 22:23 In respect to an ox or a lamb which has an overgrown or stunted member, you may present it for a freewill offering, but for a vow it will not be accepted.
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,
2 Tim 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
@@matts.6558 Thank you :)
@ thank you :)
You gotta love it when a questioner affords himself the presumed upper hand, "since we know [all of this mumbo jumbo] has been disproven by science...". He posits, incorrectly, that all the intelligent, educated people who ever read a book are all on his side, when billions of intelligent, educated people hold that reality can be best explained from a theistic worldview.
God predetermined the elect to be saved.
God gave us freewill in many aspects of our lives.
God is sovereign over everything but He loves us so much He does not depend our Salvation on a fallible mere man-made decision. The bride of Christ will not be denied of the Salvation He died for on the Cross just because of human means. Predestination of the elect is crucial for the assurance of Salvation of God's people. On the other hand, free will is given to us in many aspects of our life, choosing who to marry, what to eat, what to wear, do we choose sin or do the right thing? Although our choices does not surprise God, He allows them to happen. And nothing can happen out of His permission.