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Digital audio formats on 8mm video tapes
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2024
- Video8 and Hi8 tapes were not only used for analogue video recordings, but there are several formats for recording PCM digital audio onto them. Some retain video information, some are multi-track digital audio only.
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In the early to mid 1990s, I really wanted either a Tascam DA-88 or an Alesis ADAT, but frankly I could not afford either one at the time, so I stuck to my Tascam 424 Portastudio... By the time I could afford a digital multi-track recorder, things had moved toward digital audio workstations with hard drives... But if I found a DA-88 these days, or the Sony version (that I was previously unaware of), I would probably swipe it up! Nice video.
Thank you for all the info you are sharing very helpful
VHS e VIDEO 8 sono 2 sistemi eccellenti,sia video che audio.video stupendo!
Nice, got ev s900 recently, looks like good candidate to play with 8mm audio.
There was also the AKAI ADAM format which recorded 12 channels of 48/16 audio in standard 8MM tape (formatted and run at a higher speed then for video). It came out in 1986 or so.
Very interesting! I'll keep an eye out for a suitable machine.
@@video99couk warning Akai Adam can be very unstable.
@@dhampex3631 I wasn't aware of that. Given the age of the machines and tapes now, I imagine then that recovery of data from them is very nearly a lost cause. DTRS was still in use until relatively recently so the machines seem to be reasonably good, apart from a bit of pinch roller wear.
video99.co.uk I remember when they first came out they seemed ok. Until a year, start hearing people saying that they were having issues, I believe it was the transport and some other stuff. Then they started to be known as the unreliable beast. One things for sure they revolutionize the MDM video cassette digital multitrack. I do have 3 adat xt and three adat blackface. They sound beautiful especially 16 bit. I have xt20 that I never use. I love the fact that the Adams were 12 track, all you need was one more machine and you have 24, I forgot how it sounded and I was curious. I still use digital 16 bit tape. My original plan was to get a Sony pcm3348 for there converters. They are dirt cheap compared to $100,000 price tag back then. I’d say get a Adam for collection purposes. Using one in a multitrack situation will be interesting. Cheers!
@@dhampex3631 You've probably seem my video on the XT20 already. Mode switch trouble is common but otherwise they are fairly robust. I've also done a video where I connect DTRS to an Alesis HD24, which works very well. I don't get many jobs for these formats but at least when they do come in, I know I'm getting the best from them. Have you also seen my videos on repairing 24 bit DAT machines from Tascam? I've been running 15ips tapes on my Ferrograph today, I like playing with kit like that.
I have a 8mm Sony EVS-850 PS to do 6 Stereo PCM Audio Channels. With an 90 Min. Cassette we can do in LP 18 Hours of Music on one of this Tape. So i have many Hours recording of Radio Program in the Night with Timer in the 90ers.....
Resolution is 8 bits, though it uses non-linear quantization, so it is certainly better than 8-bit linear PCM (digitizing is actually done on 10 bits). Compression is said to be 2:1 in service manual of PCM-EV10. Due to these measures, dynamic range is specified as "more than 88 dB". Also, sampling rate is not 32 kHz, but rather 31,25 kHz (PAL) or 31,46853 kHz (NTSC). (The whole principle of 'reserved track for PCM Audio' is based on amount of wrap angle - it is 180° for standard 8mm VCR, and 221° for 8mm VCR with PCM sound. With guard band PCM audio takes some 30° of said wrap angle. Getting the bytes digitally might be not very big problem, once someone would tap appropriate signals from A/D & D/A chip; however outputting the data as SPDIF is not trivial due to non-linearity, compression, pre-emphasis (with different contants than that for CDs/DATs/EIAJ-conforming processor).
A fascinating reply there with more detail on this system than I've ever seen before. How did you find all this information? I didn't know the wrap angle was different. You've also explained why there is reference to 10 bit encoding in the EVS9000E service manual. Turning the data into an SPDIF stream then really isn't on, it's best to just capture the analogue outputs.
I don't remember where exactly I read about this, I was pretty sure that it was "Digital Audio Technology: A Guide to CD, MiniDisc, SACD, DVD(A), MP3 and DAT", but right now I cannot find the relevant fragment (though in a chapter devoted to DAT there are figures showing wrap angle of VHS/Beta vs. 8mm VTR with PCM audio vs. DAT). The book is however fascinating read on its own - it is full of hairy details how things works, some more known (like subcodes on CD, EFM etc), some more obscure (EIAJ AKA PCM-F1 tape format - I guess it might be possible to write software decoder taking for example DV avi files and decoding them to wav based on information provided in the book alone). My interest in PCM on Video8 was sparkled by some small surprise several days ago - after obtaining PCM-501, PCM-701 and PCM-601 in the course of a bit more than a month, I've looked back to Polish book from 1989 (by prof. B. Urbański, specialist in a field of audio-video recording) about VHS ("Magnetowid w pytaniach i odpowiedziach" - approximate translation: "Video tape player Q&A"). This book had a chapter on PCM adapters at the end, along with photography of one, that I was certain I already own, since there were no Sony PCM processors sold as Hi-Fi components other than those that I already have (apart from bulky PCM-1 & PCM-10). Surprise, surprise! I hadn't the one pictured, but it wasn't PCM adapter either (or at least it wasn't the adapter that was described in this chapter) - it turned out to be Video8 deck EV-A300 with PCM-EV10 external PCM adapter, that works just with this particular VCR with proprietary signalling on its "multiconnector" (was it SCART? anyway it was a dedicated socket for PCM on the back) cable (only 2 channel PCM audio on Video8 tape - don't know if this was because of the fact, that PCM adapter was external box, or simply because it more channels weren't invented yet). A day or two later, I've ordered another book by the same author, "Magnetofony i gramofony cyfrowe" (rough translation: "Digital tape recorders and digital turntables"), that also had a chapter on EIAJ PCM adapters (along with professional ones like 1610 or 1630). Apart from some factual errors (Sony PCM-F1 was listed as professional unit), there was also a photograph of (supposedly) different PCM adapter. But it still wasn't one of these that I have! Neither it was a proper EIAJ PCM-adapter - it was Sony EV-S600 Video8 VTR (the one with integrated PCM circuity and "6 PCM tracks with no video" capability). The book was however dead silent on Video8 - no mention at all, except for that photo. (When I first saw "Digital Audio Technology: A Guide to CD, MiniDisc, SACD, DVD(A), MP3 and DAT", I've got an impression that the B. Urbański book was heavily inspired by it; first edition of it (sans MiniDisc etc) was from 1988), with lots of images and tables reproduced, even general layout is very similar; however it is prominently missing from any bibliography at the end of each chapter)
This was really informative, thank you Colin!
The Hi8 based Multitracker system stands in the shadow of the VHS based ADAT.
Other way round I suspect. I have both here. The Hi8 system supports up to 24 bit resolution, SVHS only manages 20 bit.
I've watched your amazing video 3 times. From what I can tell from memory, those diagrams may indicate control chips, not bit depth chips. For example, jvc super digifine fm tuner shows 8 bit dac, but its really hi end. Unless you can correct me on this. However I'm really interested in v8 analog, again carrier and control chips. I'm about to download evs 9000 e service manual. Interesting stuff indeed. Lots of quality Japanese stuff you have. Not a Samsung in sight.
I understand this isn't what the DTRS format is for but could one THEORETICALLY SPEAKING, use a DA-38 to record 4 separate 2-channel/stereo of music, and basically turn it into a CD-quality digital tape player thats 108 minutes x 4 to get over 7 hours of stereo material on one Hi8 tape?
Yes, sort of.
Hi !! The 8mm, Video8 & Hi8 formats are already gradually dying out and going nowhere, followed by DV and mini DV. Equipment was not sold enough, tape cassettes were also not enough.
The S-VHS / VHS is the best!
All tape formats have died out long ago. In the camcorder market back in the 1990s though, 8mm outsold VHS based formats by a huge margin.
Here we go the giid stuff. Tascam da88 and the alesis Adat i stull use. U gotta start showing ins and outputs
What? Hi fi analogue on 8? That's exactly what I'm looking for. Fm carrier is going through converter or just carrier? Love this.
It's companded, then it's multiplex L+R and L-R like FM Stereo radio but not as well bluntly. There's less dynamic range on the difference signal than the mono signal so it does a few weird things. Neither PCM or AFR Stereo sounds really good on Video 8.
I thought about Video 8 for using as digital recorder.
hi i good to things one da-302 all decks saying err 80 and my da38 are dropping caps yes i opened some of my decks they are 3 motor jobs
so no belts hell putting new caps on zoom right in i have not used da 302 for a long time i can't find any tec info on the da302
Sorry to barge in on an old video but I'd like to point out that "Eight to Ten bit encoding" might not have anything to do with the audio sample bit depth. It's probably just a way to add 2 extra bits to each byte of data that gets encoded on the tape, to avoid writing too many consecutive zeroes or ones on the tape. Digital Compact Cassette uses the same system, and Compact Disc uses an older, slightly less advanced 8-to-14 encoding scheme.
See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8b/10b_encoding
I've been told what this really is: The tape is encoded with only 8 bit audio, but they are not all the same voltage. Some bits have a bigger step than others. A bit of hardware then rebuilds the 8 bit data into pseudo-10 bit. The problem with consecutive zeros and ones is a different one, and is solved usually by self-clocking data having rules about how many zeros and ones can be in a sequence. That may not even apply here since the data is on a FM carrier I believe.
@@video99couk yeah I saw the other answer after I posted mine. They probably use something like aLaw or muLaw compression to encode 16 but samples as 8 bit. It probably sounds good but not great.
Interesting machine though! Thanks for posting.
Are hi8 cassettes and DAT cassettes of the same size, so that they can be exchanged in the adequate equipment ?
No, DAT tapes are much smaller than Hi8. But these DTRS tapes are normal Hi8 tapes.
@@video99couk So I found out: Hi8 cassettes fit in Tascam DA88 and DA98HR ? I am irritated, that the Tascam DA98HR is described as DAT-Recorder !?🤔
hi have you service any tascam da38 i got a pallet of them come with a mixer and alot of gear have you done a video on them i can find any repair video on them
Thanks for the reply. From memory, when I worked at Severn sound, Gloucester, now global, we used to leave a pioneer (I think a Sony 700 or 800 clone) on overnight to handle 12 hours of pcm audio. I think it was a special audio only mode. 6 tracks. Nothing to do with 8 track Pro audio I think. I wondered how it handles the hours, unless somebody was there to play the amerex tape loop jingles while it rewound. Was this feature available on other decks? It's only 12 bit, but 12 bit can be amazingly good. Besides, it was going to transmitter Station on frequency modulation. Looking at your video, it might actually have been 10 bit. But let's not forget, this is standard 8. My jvc super digifine has 8 bit chips, but they are controller chips. The yamaha tx81z is 12 bit, but the rate is phenomenal. I'm not particularly interested in 16 bit or 24 bit, as vhs hifi sounds better! 👍
That's the same format as the EVS700 I demonstrate in this video. It's 8 non-linear bit with 10 bit "fudging", it can be OK but you need to be careful with recording levels.
Fantastic. I've been showing this to a lot of people. Jvc vhs, pioneered by Panasonic is the best analogue sound quality, however, do you have a list of the sony decks, that have stereo analogue? I think it's about 88db or less dynamic, compared to jvc hifi at about 90 dB. Panasonic pushed analogue to about 92 dB. This is analogue, not digital. I'm aware nicam had 12 bit? Regular 8mm had pcm. Digital 8 and d vhs are entirely digital, along with tascam, rival to fostex, and alesis using vhs tapes. The original alesis (black) were absolutely rubbish, but changed the world). The later xt silver was amazing for digital but was prone to spaghetti. However, I'm interested in ANALOGUE recording, including saturation, and avcl. There was, apparently another format from pioneer. I'm not sure of the specs. I have 6 super drives now, one pre super drive, and one jvc. Using linear and mono from seperate sources, I can get 36 hours of analogue recording on one tape. I've gone to great extents to try to find if the redundant video track is capable of recording audio on helical. Indeed, I am aware that the hifi track is laid down on a 8 head machine as part of fm video track. However, there is still more capacity, and the Russians used it for data back up. Do you know anything about rvid please?
Not even heard of rvid. Many Sony VHS decks had hi-fi stereo of course, I've got a few here somewhere, but don't tend to use them. There were also Beta HiFi of course, such as the SL-HF100 of which I have three. But both VHS and Beta hifi (PAL) can suffer from buzz if things are not perfectly aligned, tracking just right, tapes in good condition. It was a limitation of the depth multiplexing technique.
@@video99couk yeah, agreed. I've got 6 panasonic super drive here, the later ones being steel chassis and centre mounted. Not as good, although all still working. Also have jvc hifi sound is incredible. Checked out all the specs, and as far as I can tell top panasonic nv beats jvc and sony bets hifi, and also hi 8 analogue.
The EVS800 PCM digital recording wasn't good enough for Bananarama ;) It lost it on the word 'see'. ("Love in the first degree")
Very useful video, thanks! I'm trying to digitise some Video8 PCM audio tapes. Do you know of any good cameras that have PCM playback built in? I have purchased the Sony CCD V200 on ebay but unfortunately, it's not working. Finding a video8 deck, even to rent is proving difficult too. Any help appreciated. Thanks again
Sorry, I don't know which camcorder models support PCM, certainly only a very few high end models. Not very many mains machines decks do either, and those that do are usually defective now, such as EV-S9000E. How many tapes do you have? Email me via web site if you would like me to work on them.
@@video99couk Thanks for your prompt response. Not sure how many there are, my uncle has them all, I think about 50! I've found a Sony EV-S1000 for sale which looks like it would do the job, as it seems to have a PCM function. I have a little digitising business too, here in Brighton but I've never had to deal with this before. I'm tempted to sell my Digital8 cameras to fund the purchase of the EV-S1000 if it works.
Can you please do a special 6 track pcm and analogue fm hifi short please. 12 bit audio. 8 bit controller. Or the other way round lol.
Not quite sure what you're asking for here, could you clarify?
Thank you so much for the reply. Vhs hifi sounds incredible. Invented by jvc. Pioneered by Panasonic. Dynamic range almost as good as cd, but sounds better due to saturation. Can you please name the Sony decks that have analogue hifi on v8? Thanks. Great video.
All 8mm decks have analogue hi-fi sound. Relatively few though, like the EV-S8000, have PCM digital audio as well.
Beside ADAT, there was pretty early a VHS based digital audio deck
Yes, Techmoan featured that a while back.
I have a Sony EV-S700UB that can do this multitrack PCM recording. It's interesting to play with.
Very similar to the EV-S800 model I think, not sure what the differences are.
Hi8 PCM audio - 12 bit/32 kHz
hi this what i am look for V-800g-f TEAC Hi8 Video8 8mm Video 8 Player Recorder PCM
they are still a lot of money used as i asked about there still parts for this unit money ways better to have this make i had a bad run with sony hi 8 video format betacam units
are tank's and will last a long time keep the video coming
That's an usual machine, I've never come across one of those. Primarily used for military aviator purposes apparently.
Take for example the Panasonic AG-7350 or 7500 Hi-Fi S-VHS and the NTSC format - tape speed: 33 mm/s.
Video recording will be better than on Hi8.
I am sure that the audio recording will be super excellent and even wins over digital sound.
Hi8 sound is generally very worse, failing before the best S-VHS Hi-fi format!
You can't even do hi-fi stereo audio dub on any of those models, so the sound for such work will be hideous. The Sony EV-S9000E can do hi-fi stereo audio dub because it has four high quality audio channels, VHS only has two. Remember also that 8mm has hi-fi sound as standard, VHS it was an optional extra which was often missed out of camcorders. VHSC was really the absolute pits of all camcorder formats. Even standard 8mm has lower noise and better chroma bandwidth. Hence VHSC lost the camcorder market in the end, leaving only JVC and Panasonic flogging the dead horse when everyone else had migrated to 8mm.
Subbed
Right the bit depth.
I'm animating this up for one of my videos, the answer is _it's complicated_.
I won't get though a long explanation Colin as I'm sure you'll follow the bare bones.
10-bit quantization, however the MSB isn't used (possibly for signing, this I can't prove, even the 200 page document in front of me isn't clear) so initial sample takes place in theoretically 9-bit (0-511)
This is then non-linearly compressed to 8-bits without the MSB (again for signing?) - so that's 0-127!
10-Bit 0 - 15 and 8-bit are same (1:1 no compression)
10-Bit 16-63 are compressed 2:1 8-bit values 16-39
10-Bit 64-314 are compressed 4:1 8-bit values 40-103
10 Bit 314-511 are compressed 8:1 8 bit values 104-127
Essentially louder sounds are compressed, quieter ones receive less if any compression. This is the reversed, with potential for greatest quantization error at the peak wave amplitude.
The reason it's 8-bits rather than 10 on the tape is because the head speed, sample frequency and wrap angle only permitted interleaved 8-Bit frames when CCRC&Parity were added.
Hope that helps mate - I'm posting a video up about it soon on my RobustReviews channel.
To add, it sounds 'okay' but it's pretty poor when you really test it - the stereo AFM sounds a bit better (although, that had a big technical negative, as it's multiplexed L/R and even Sony seemed to admit were severe limitations with stereo separation) - compared to true Beta AFM or VHS HiFi it still lacked considerably. After extensive back to back testing on brand new tapes and quality machines 1) VHS HiFi, 2) Betamax HiFi (PAL), 3) Video 8 AFM 4) Video 8 PCM 5) V2000 Linear stereo in my head to head on objective sound quality. Precious little between Beta HiFi and VHS HiFi. I'm the guy who emailed you about the HF950 reel table a week or two ago by the way.
@@musmodtos Yet this PCM was also used on professional machines like the Sony EVO9800P / Hitachi HR-C10: czcams.com/video/eY2lDufsokQ/video.html
And that one ONLY has PCM stereo, no AFM stereo, as I found out recently.
I found it sounded fine but couldn't tolerate being overloaded at all.
@@video99couk Yes, it was developed in the early 80s though, my 1985 vintage S700 does the multitrack PCM - which would have been cutting edge for the time, but it only does mono AFR.
For mere mortals I still suggest VHS Hifi is the best of the video tape audio recording arena - but that's not without its drawbacks either.
hi akai made a 8mm audio 20min tapes i think it was 12 tracks on each tape i had some new sealed tapes all the transport was on the remote all the rest was on the recorder
i am not far of on my info funny i get emails about format as i know a man who buys up ex studio gear he now got a site on ebay the only thing there's not people
with money any more and they saying his used parts are far to high sellers i getting on to him and putting there price's up say a akai 4000 you can buy for£60
why would you pay £45 for a new pinch roller if i have any rare pinch roller's i wait till i have alot and and get terry to do them in the usa the akAI 12 track has a name
as we all know it's got a black front panel and all the xlr sockets on the back the lady i get the tapes of came from the eu gemany i was told
As mspysu79 mentioned earlier, that would be the AKAI ADAM format. I would love to get one of those.
"but these
four tapes actually all containing
digital audio recordings and they're
different to each other"
Different FROM each other !
People make mistakes when talking to camera, it's not as easy as you might think.
@@video99couk You're right, they do but not necessarily grammatical ones ;)