Review: Roger Norrington--The Complete Worthless Dreck Edition
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- čas přidán 26. 07. 2024
- Roger Norrington: The Complete Erato Recordings (works by Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Rossini, Schubert, Berlioz, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Wagner, Bruckner, Smetana and Purcell). 45 Mostly Atrocious CDs
- Hudba
True story: I once threw up onto Roger Norrington’s kitchen floor. I was part of a jazz group that had played at a church around the corner from his estate (he held his head in his hands all throughout our set) and for some reason invited us to his home afterwards. I wasn’t going to turn down an invitation to drink wine at Roger Norrington’s home, though I wish I’d handled his beverage offerings better. He made some crack like “Oh, how typical of a jazzer!”
I did actually engage him a bit on his vibrato nonsense, but I was young enough at the time that it’s not like he was going to take me seriously (and I had just thrown up on his kitchen floor). And this was before CZcams, where you can just find any video of a 1920s or 1930s orchestra and immediately disprove his unimaginably nonsense that those orchestras did not use vibrato. That said, aside from the vibrato insanity (and his obvious distaste for the music I’d played for him) he was an engaging and gracious host!
The most spectacular recording of Beethoven 5th was Bernstein and the New York Phil.
One of Bernstein's best recordings!
@@gary100dm This may or may not be true. I have no idea. But what on earth has it to do with the engaging story related by
@stephenswanson334?
OMG this made my day. I may have barfed on some musicians floors, but none as notable as Norrington.
I wish Dave would learn to communicate his feelings and analysis in a more clear and forceful manner. :)
😂😂😂
Right? The vagueness and prevarication are killing me! 😅
Diffident he is not.
Right? Can't tell whether "musical guano" is something good or bad...
Agreed, graydomn.
Equivocation and a non-committal mien have no place in the polemicist's tool box.
Dave must work on this.
I lost it at "musical guano" 😂 Brilliant review
May favourite was "reeds made out of authentic French swamp creatures"
George Santos of conductors omg I’m dying that’s amazing.
Nancy Argenta did fabulous work with Gardiner on various cantatas and the Magnificat, so she’s actually worth hearing elsewhere.
Let's hope that the George Santos phenomenon lives on in the English lexicon.
Oi, sheesh
Yep, Dave sliced his way through that which is bologna rather quickly, at first, then he stayed with the topic for about 25 minutes too long. But essentially, Dave set about doing that which he set out about doing, namely to bury Rodger Norrington, together with this box set before someone among the gullible, the still wet-behind-the-ears, naive, or those who are still the inexperienced among classical music connoisseurs and collectors, happens completely by accident to purchased this thing-partly an over-priced brick, another part and expensive doorstop.
Here Dave essentially performed that which was a necessary, very needed, and an important public service, sparing us our wallets at the expense of his.
Happy listening to everything else, and cheers. .
Halftime in the locker room at the HIP playoffs - Conductor, "Listen up Hanover Band. Second half is with the London Classical Players. You have five minutes to change uniforms!"
It as not just the UK classical music press pushing Norrington:
1989 New york times on Norrington: "He has achieved this prominence partly through the widely recognized excellence of his interpretations, but also by his eager enthusiasm in pushing forward the chronological limits of the movement into familiar 19th-century Romantic repertory. Mr. Norrington isn't playing ‘early music’ any more … but mainstream classical standards in a fresh and enlivening manner … No-one has been more admired in this repertory than Mr. Norrington, who has combined brisk tempos, dramatic accents, interpretive niceties and a lively responsiveness to period timbres into one vibrant package.”
and the same paper in 1988 "the performance was impassioned and truly good-humored, all at once. Mr. Norrington got the trumpets to snarl with a nice nasality, and if his Larghetto seemed really too fast, at least with these instruments, it was also breathtaking. In all, a lovely concert, greeted with heartfelt cheers."
Bruce Duffie: "The London Classical Players leapt to worldwide fame with Norrington’s dramatic performances of Beethoven’s symphonies on period instruments. The recordings of these works for EMI won prizes in the UK, Belgium, Germany and the United States, and are some of the most sought-after readings of Beethoven Symphonies in our times. "
That is true. Stupidity is universal.
"...interpretive niceties..." Run away! Run away!
This sounds familiar. We're any of those quotes from William Malloch?
I bought the Emperor Cto with Tan and Norrington and had to pick my jaw off the floor at the sheer awfulness of it. It sounded like a weird parody, reducing a masterpiece to utter insignificance, played on a toy piano.
All I remember about Norrington was the huge splash his Beethoven symphonies made. It was very different! Rather exciting as I remember. Haven’t listen to it in years. I still have the set somewhere.
@@CortJohnson Only matched in horror by Roy Goodman and his scrappy Hannover Band! 🤢
I know a conductor who heard Norrington's vibrato-less Mahler 1 with some youth orchestra. His verdict: "Child abuse."
That's not funny. It's actually inappropriate to share in public.
@@BambosNeophytou can you explain what you are talking about?
Listening to Norrington is equivalent to using a pathologist as your primary care physician. Choosing him to conduct the Symphonie Fantastique, the drug induced paroxysm of a love sick and emotionally immature young genius, is completely ludicrous idea. It's like choosing one of the King's Guard as your dance partner. Thank you for recognizing this cold hearted jerk for what he is. You the man, Hurwitz.
His was the musical equivalent of most "Conceptual Art" - Was 99% gimmick.
A long time ago, I wrote in a facebook group about the recording of Smetana's "Ma vlast", in which some members of the group wrote that Norrigton's approach was more authentic than the others, which is absurd (if we keep in mind that there are recordings of Czech conductors who grew up in the same musical tradition as Smetana ). There was also this comment:
"all you’re doing is demonstrating is that you like the traditions of how this piece is usually played, not necessarily what Smetana actually wrote. What you call "authenticity“ others might call ”tradition“ or, if one were being unkind, ”laziness.“ I’ve conducted some of this music with Czech orchestras, and they want it to go how it usually goes. That’s what you like, that’s what you want, fine. But at least admit what you want is a recording that conforms to the recorded traditions of the work. Norrington went back to all the sources for this recording, and it’s the first (I believe) that represents anything like the notes the composer actually wrote." - poor guy...
So, I've watched this video twice, and I'm still not sure how DH feels about Norrington ... great video!!!
I read "Norrington" in the title, then saw the white scarf on the thumbnail and immediately knew what I was getting myself into.
I just saw the video and went making some popcorn before pressing "play"... 😀
His recordings actually got played a lot on local radio stations. This video felt like a cathartic release of having to hear those horrors over the years. You were like the Oracle of Delphi in this video!
i actually love a lot of HIP and period instrument performance, even stuff on "bad" sounding instruments. what i really oppose, though, is a) the idea that the evolution of performance practice over the centuries represents a "mistake" rather than a continuing tradition of classical performance, and b) the idea that these people tried to set themselves as standing apart from this tradition. they're exactly what they accuse the "old" conductors as being- a way classical performance changed over time to reflect the tastes of performers and audiences.
It's sort of a postmodern type of performance, with our sometimes dubious obsession with the concept of "authenticity"
Good point.
The issue I have with the movement is the concept that music played on anything other than the instruments they were written for is "inauthentic." Sure, maybe Mozart and Beethoven DO sound better on fortepianos (I personally believe they often do) but if that's the case your argument should be just that--we should play Mozart on the fortepiano because it sounds good, not because it's the only "proper" way. Arguments about authenticity should be focused on important musical choices that effect the very nature of a piece (such as tempo), not things like timbre and orchestra size.
If it is un-musical it is inauthentic on that issue alone. I can say the same on synthesizer performances (transcription is a big source of repertory) and "period" performance alike: if it is musically suspect it is crap.
I was looking forward to you doing this. Popcorn time.
Would I would love to hear is a first rate conductor and orchestra performing on well-maintained school instruments. Likely, after a couple rehearsals, they could deliver a strikingly rich performance.
The message would be crystal clear: Instruments will only take you so far. Hard work, intelligence, and passion for the music you're performing will take you the rest of the way.
I feel obliged to say that when I was a young singer I understudied Dorabella in 'Cosi fan tutte' in Joan Cross's Phoenix Opera company. Roger Norrington sang the tenor role. His voice was awful, but the musicality and inwardness and phrasing in the tenor aria was exquisite, meditative and unforgettable. Ever since that time I have looked in vain for similarly beautiful phrasing from better tenors, but Roger Norrington's interpretation still leads the pack.
Thank you, that is new! Probably proof he really has/had a good grasp of vocal numbers, and by a certain extension, the talent to be a good leader of vocal forces. Too bad we are mostly left with his orchestral adventures that EMI was all to willing to proliferate.
The Complete "Error" -- all enclosed in one baaaxx. Let's keep it in there! You nailed it, Dave.
BRAVO! How delightful to have someone finally stick a pin into the over-inflated balloon of the "original instrument" cult and call out those interchangeable-rosters English groups who created what Paul Henry Lang termed the "deadening orthodoxy" of performance practice we have been saddled with for decades. I majored in music history in college and grad school, and never could figure out where the notion--now widely held and asserted--that 18th-century singers didn't have any vibrato (god save me from having to listen to Emma Kirkby--I'd rather spend an evening chewing aluminum foil). It was a wonderful vindication when I had an opportunity to discuss it with Nicholas McGegan, who agreed that there is no basis for that notion either. Thank you!
I seriously brought some chips with me as I prepared to listen to this once and for eternity review of your "favorite" conductor. :)))
I cannot believe you did not start out with all 4 scarves on, as a good case could be made for each of them. However, adding the scarlet one at the end was a deft touch, which had me lol'ing. ;D You can't pan Warner too hard, they have this on their shelves, so they will try to press a honest buck out of it, while the notoriety of the man on the cover still lives - just like they are doing with any former releases they own. It is on us to partake or not!
What seriously struck me most was how unimaginative the full programming was - even conductors from the 78s era, who left very limited recording legacies and hardly had a lot of choice over what to record, had more varied and adventurous choices, containing at least a couple off-the-beaten path pieces or short bon-bons dear to their heart... While Sir Roger just ploughed through the essential late Classical and Romantic repertoire, in an attempt (it seems) to have further points of comparison by which his perversity... erm, difference... could be measured. That, in turn, makes this collection even more useless than otherwise, as all it contains are works recorded literally thousands of times, better.
All in all, although I have heard a couple of the man's records (the Rossini gala included) before and not come off actively offended by them - just feeling it was all kinda bland and joyless... I must modify your statement of "This is the worst ... ... ... ... collection of music you will ever hear" by adding 1 letter: "N-ever". Why try and dig deep for some redeemable stuff - that may not really be there - among the wreck, when there are so many options for our short lifetime?..
As I have mentioned before, I first came to this channel surprised at the loathing David had for Norrington, since I bought his Beethoven (hook, line, and sinker) in the 1980s and then most of the Schubert cycle. I didn't enjoy, however the Magic Flute nor Ma Vlast, and definitely prefer the fraudulent (Pierne) to the "authentic" (Norrington) when it comes to Symphonie Fantastique. Your talks have really been eye-(and ear)opening. I always enjoyed Trevor Pinnock and Guenter Wand, so I guess there is hope! Thank You! BTW, the second-hand CD shops now have lots of discarded Norrington, and will soon have more!
As a coda: I finally found an EMI Gunter Wand Beethoven's 9th in L.A. today! Froh!
No doubt, Gramophone magazine will be awarding Norrington a(nother?) ‘lifetime achievement’ award in 2023 in response to Dave’s review.
Thanks for this excellent talk. It is both educational and entertaining. Keep on reviewing.
It’s good to hear someone who deplores Norrington as much as I do. I once heard him conduct a Berlioz (one of my favourite composers) overture and have never heard such a travesty. IMO he and his kind came close to destroying classical/romantic music forever.
Back when Norrington was releasing his Beethoven cycle, I remember reading the reviews in Gramophone and feeling gaslit - because I'd actually heard the disc they were reviewing and thought it was pretty awful. I never bought into the Norrington propaganda, and I'm so happy to see there's at least one critic who didn't buy it either. Thank you! I feel validated.
a half hour of bashing a hyped British conductor? now i know what im listening to on my morning walk
I have his Beethoven symphony cycle on period instruments. Have only played a section of the first symphony; and haven't heard anything from that cycle since. Thanks for explaining why.
This talk has now made its way into the top 90 in 24 days!! Wow, what a rocket !!
A year or so ago I saw a concert on the CZcams channel of the Royal Scottish National Orchestra with Roger Norrington conducting Beethoven's Eroica. I was at work so missed the concert. What I found most odd was him giving a lengthy introductory speech to the audience about the rationale of his method of conducting Beethoven. It felt like explaining the punchline to a joke before you've even told it.
heard norrington's haydn symphonies; brought me to tears...it was so bad, lifeless and truly sad
One year in the 90s Norrigton and his group performed Má Vlast at the traditional opening of Prague Spring festival. Oh dear - not well received - excuse was that something else had come up and they hadn't had time to rehearse. Recording came out later but was actually made before they left for Prague.
I've been waiting for this. 😆
Why? I love Dave’s reviews but this is frankly at his worst. And there’s an aura of bullying about it.
There are no homogenous “British critics” by the way
@@murraylow4523 Because I largely agree with this. Norrington took a gimmick and turned it into a career. Only problem is, his gimmick is unmusical and not rooted in real history. And the fact that so many critics licked his ass is a case of the Emperor having no clothes.
@@bendingcaesar65 He’s hardly an emperor. Also he is alive and I just find some of the commentary here cruel. Also, to reduce him to a “gimmick” is unfair, he may not have been one of the best “hip” people but he made some rather good recordings in the day, even if they have been surpassed by others.
@@murraylow4523 That's fine if you think he made some good recordings. We are all entitled to our opinions. As for "cruel," seriously, I'm sure the man can handle criticism. He is a performer, after all. He is not from the snowflake generation.
@@murraylow4523 I agree. This "review" certainly was not Mr. Hurwitz's finest hour, Maybe it is in the logic of the internet and CZcams in general: to get attention and views the topics get more and more clickbaity and the views and putdowns more extreme. Because it is what Mr. Hurwitz's audience seems to want. And the audience of course has smelled the blood as can be seen in the comments section.
My Mad Magazine name for him has always been “Roger Nothington” so I certainly appreciate this video. Whilst listening to the classical station back in the day, anytime a piece was announced followed by “conducted by Roger Norrington” I’d turn that off and listen to something else.
I do think, however, Dave is off-base with the name calling, labeling Northington as "dreck." It really doesn't quite sink that low. If he were being objective, he would have called it "The Roger Norrington Schlock Edition."
Robert King was the name you were searching for.
Of course. Thank you!
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on Sir Neville Marriner, whom I have found to conduct the same repertoire brilliantly.
Check the videos and other reviews on ClassicsToday.com.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you! Watching your reappraisal of Marriner's Haydn symphonies. I'm surprised CZcams has never recommended any of these videos to me before.
Hi Dave, I like that you're using our german word dreck... - Nice video like always by the way.
Don't forget that "dreck" is Yiddish as well,
@@aaronrabushka2180 as is Chutzpah. I love his use of Yiddish.
Yes and even some more words. Daves wording and direct speech is one of the reasons why I like his videos.
@@alfredkornfeld7284 Those are words for smart English-speakers whatever their origin.
I bought the Beethoven piano concerto set because it was “period” - to hear what it was like - many, many moons ago. When I listened to the very fast (5:47) slow movement of the Emperor I thought “This is weird?” and pulled out the Arrau / Davis recording (8:27). It sort of settled my understanding of their approach. There was just no feeling in it. Arrau makes that slow movement like gazing up at the stars while camping. The Tan version is like Bugs Bunny running in the night.
I agree!!!!! Like Paint Drying-Not Music
I've heard terrible live opera performances conducted by Lawrence Foster (could not conduct La Boheme) and some mediocre recordings but I also have a few rather nice recordings of him in concertos and unusual 20th C. concerted works.
Norrington-YUK!
I'm glad you mentioned so many fine older conductors and four sort of recent conductors, Harnoncourt, Pinnock, Gardiner, Hogwood. Also, one of the all time greatest, Klemperer. I should know, I've heard so many, just in my 46,500 LPs/CDs/78s collection. I don't remember owning a Hogwood recording though.
I worked with Norrington....he called the Missal solemnis a series of dances...one of the worst I've ever worked with...
Most of us have some unconventional view of a book or movie. In my case I refer to Cabaret as my favorite horror movie because it has all the elements -- freakish characters, a descent into mad reality, and bad things happening to good people. It is done well, and the music works beautifully to that end.
If one is to offer an unconventional view than one needs a compelling explanation.
I wish Norrington would do a 'reaction' video to this critique you've made here, David. Whatever it takes to promote this great art form to an audience that knows nothing about it.
One of the all-time great reviews. Kudos! And kudos again, good sir!
Dave
I agree with you that the best place, and that which most assuredly is the best thing for this particular lorington box set is it's a quick burial, the sooner the better.
But your box set my possibly make it better, far more effective doorstop to protect one of the doors in your house from swaying back and forth than my brick.
About almost 30 years ago, I have The misfortune with wasting money purchasing some allegedly featured BMG classical music compact disc recording performances. Inadvertently I picked up Norrington's recording of Mozart's Don Giovanni, then a three compact disc set, done alternately in the respective Prague and Vienna versions. The method by which this three compact discs it recording was achieved was arranged so that either Norrington or the recording company which I believe is EMI, chose to do this was to make very long compact disc tracks, some of this exceeding being a half an hour in length; some of which had to be bypassed in the track programming process-listening to One track while bypassing some others in order for one to successfully listen one's way, and with successfully wading one's through each one of these respective recorded, allegedly concert versions. Programming my way through that was a nightmare. Even then I realized at that time, now over 30 years ago, that I had purchased that which was a veritable dog in the manger among the west of otherwise decent Mozart Don Giovanni Opera performances, and that this guy, Roger Norrington, was going nowhere with this sort of music conducting, fast. Back when I first Iistened my way through both the respective Prague and the Vienna versions of Don Giovanni I successfully got through it but once, finding that experience almost being completely unbearable-I haven't even picked up the disk box set ever since, because of the release of far superior performances, in which the quality there became no contest. The Don Giovanni brick, which, incidentally makes a rather decent indoor doorstop, was released at a time back before release of the Phillips' bicentennial commemorative Complete Mozart Edition, back in 1991, which I had both the opportunity as well as the Good Fortune with having acquired it, with that Don Giovanni performance being conducted, now regrettably by the now late Sir Colin Davis, which spared the Don any further embarrassment in hell with such mediocre concert length performances of Don Giovanni coming from the likes of, and being spared any further humiliation or desecration coming from such as the likes of a Norrington.. even John Eliot Gardiner execute serve better Don Giovanni than Norrington. Personally, I really fail to see how I can really say anyting good regarding a Norrington performance I've just about pretty much everything.
The Hanover band, for example, while playing it's way throughout an entire Franz Schubert complete symphonies cycle under the baton of a Roy Goodman...? One would scarcely tell that it was the same Orchestra, ensemble, or whatever the case may be, being directed by an entirely different orchestral conductor.
Cheers, and happy listening to everything else.
Can’t suck the vocal chords out of voices! 😂😂 and even the scarlet scarf of shame!🤯🤯🤯. My, my…
I had the Beethoven symphonies with classic players that I have to confess liked the 5th
I used to think of him as Roger Snorrington.
I think David is completely wasted limiting his insights to classical music.
Substitute baseball for Roger Norrington and that sport totally makes sense. :-)
Seriously, it's so refreshing to hear a commentator who knows what he's talking about. I have zero problems with strong opinions IF they can be supported by FACTS, an understanding of historical or economic or cultural contexts, and a clear analysis of individual motivations and biases. David does all this and more.
Bravo.
I'm English btw and this talk rings true about British attitudes to the arts in many areas.
Perhaps in retrospect, the remains of EMI would be very happy and relieved to have these misbegotten recordings attributed to Erato. Or Errata.
So it seems we won't get a 10 bests of Norrington ...
Maybe a 10 worst? I’ve been considering becoming an insider and that would probably convince me
What a coincidence. I just was on my binge of Norrington's reviews and talks, and decided to finally listen to some of his recordings. I tried his recording of the symphony I know the best - Brahms 1st symphony of London classic players and well... it sounds just so wrong. I can actually feel how the orchestra is physically forcing themselves to not use vibrato. And the solo violin at the end of 2nd movement sounds like some kind of parody sucking out all the emotion of the piece. Though it seems like with Stuttgart radio symphony he wasn't able to commit such a travesty.
seeing the wall of CDs of yours just reminds me of mine. I must ask, does anyone know how to sell one's CD collection before one gets too old to deal with them that they end up in dumpsters and get burned down or disposed of carelessly by uninterested family members who outlive you, or sold to casual non classical music buyers who don't relish them?
EBAY (!)🤗
I hope you did not have to pay for this box-set. If you bought it so that we do not have to, many thanks! We can call you Messiah after this!
Of course I bought it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Whoa! That must be more than 100 bucks down the sinkhole!
Rather than the white scarf of irredeemable chutzpah and a multicoloured truckload of other scarfs, to really match the outrageous crimes committed to music by said individual more appropriate would be to wear 'the black cap' followed by the verdict: "you will be taken from here to the place from whence you came and there be kept in close confinement [untill the day of execution] .....".
The name you were searching for was Robert King (of the King's Consort) who contrary to Norrington is a musician - as was Frans Brüggen, and are W. Christie and Minkowski (the latter when he confines himself to music of the baroque era, that is) and there are others with them within the branch of HIP!
Great video
yeah, the way Warner is doing that with the label names is really weird. If you don't want to ever mention EMI, why not just call them the Warner recordings? Why change it to another one of the pre-existing labels under the Warner umbrella (Erato)? I don't get it.
Wow, you really don't like Norrington! He may not be the greatest of conductors but I find his engagement with audiences a nice touch at the concerts I have attended. Also, he was embarking on HIP with Beethoven and early romantic repertory from the early days. There is something attractive about being first and as you acknoweldge we were thirsty for new sounds in familiar repertoire. Hearing on familiar repertoire on period instruments is revealing of itself. In terms of Beethoven at least I would disagree that his interpretations lacked interest or validity. In Beethoven, his "thing" was tempi. The LCP recorings publish the metronome markings for each movement. I think slow/sluggish tempi Beethoven is now very rare. That said there is room for opinion in music and life.
Fair enough, but he also doesn't follow the metronome markings, as often as not, and they are in any case pretty much irrelevant to the question of "authenticity." Nor was Norrington a pioneer in that regard. And I say this having given a very positive review of his Stuttgart Beethoven cycle.
He was pushing HIP where it was inappropriate.
Can you imagine him 'doing' Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture? He would likely have fussed over the cannon to use. Maybe the least fitting: the serenades for strings by Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, and Elgar with Grieg's Holberg Suite.
I remember when that Magic Flute came out, and was delighted to hear the noble, elegant singing of Anthony Rolfe Johnson in that piece. It also had Dawn Upshaw as Pamina. I wish they had been in performances by better conductors. The music was so rushed and thin. The "ach, ich fuhls" sounds completely off in tempo.
I am inclined to agree for 100% about your opinion about the Erato box, but have a listen to his Heinrich Schütz recordings on Decca. Can you imagine something more hauntingly beautiful than his Christmas and Ascension Story, as well as the A Capella Matthäus- Passion. Peter Pears and Ian Partridge as the evangelists, with singers as Felicity Palmer, James Bowman, John Shirley-Quirk and the Schütz Choir. Of another world. Divine...
I'm not a musician and I don't know the first thing about being a music critic, but I find it interesting that the few critics I have read seem to have a favorite conductor that they love to diss. For Dave it's Norrington. Martin Bookspan could not stomach Karajan except for a few EMI Bruckner recordings. Jim Svejda found Harnoncourt, Richter and most of Chailly unlistenable. Other critics love these conductors, so I guess it's all a matter of taste just as I expected. I'm not sharp enough to determine a mediocre performance from a good one....I just know what I like.
There are many besides Norrington.
So you would recommend it then, Dave?
You mean I wasn't clear enough?
@@DavesClassicalGuide You you pretty noncommittal.😆
Great review, Dave. I learn a lot from you about the quality of artistry necessary in a conductor to bring out the best in an orchestra and the virtuosity in orchestra soloists necessary to give the best to the conductor.
"the George Santos of conductors"
I had obtained in time the fantastic symphony of berlioz by this conductor ..... the French magazines of the time spoke of "revolution" in terms of interpretation .... I have was very disappointed listening, I thought it sounded weird ...... a romantic overtures disc by the same conductor completed for me this union with this mr norrington
As in politics, not all revolutions are good. Transcribing pieces for synthesizer is revolutionary, too.
As my introduction to a lot of this music was through Norrington CDs (the hype was in Australia as well), I feel as though you have trodden on my early 20s. But you are right about all of them, and him. I broke out of the delusion about him through his dreadful Beethoven 7, Mozart 39 and Brahms. I could tell he was terrible, even without comparative versions. So NOW, I know he is indeed the George Santos of classical music. Should have stuck to choral music
My own experience with norrington is the beethoven in the late 80s with the london classical players. Its fast , souless and has the gaze of roger feeling good he followed the metronome. Is it music ? Its an opportunity for norrington to experiment on our ears. 😢
White scarf, Norrington in title, it means fun video to watch and listen.
The emperor's new clothes.
ON POINT! An entire recorded era of mediocrity.
Having had the distinct “pleasure” of having to play under Roger Norrington on several occasions I can say with certainty that he was a nasty SoB. What he lacked in the artistic realm he more than made up for in the “lack of human decency” department.
displeasure would have sufficed
Norrington is the only conductor I have ever refused to work with, again after experiencing the worst Missa Solemnis of all time in London in the early nineties. Norrington wanted it (like everything else) fast and light throughout, nio vibrato of course, and merely laughed when I pointed out the clue in the title, a message from Beethoven if ever there was one. A musical gadfly and an utter charlatan in my view.
When I started collecting a musical library, I did buy Norrington because it was marketed as 'different'. But, I never really ever liked the performances! Now, I know why...
I think I have one Norrington recording of two Beethoven symphonies. It was enough.
I got the Wagner disc for that reason... and it definitely did sound unique. Then I got Paray's Mercury version of the stuff shortly thereafter and it was like eating real cherries after freeze-dried ones
@@henryfitzgerald5857 My last one was his Berlioz Fantastique! Lots of interesting original instruments, as Dave has pointed out, but musically it sounded like a demo disc for the sounds they made, not a passionate and artistically thought out symphony.
Exactly; they came in as people were starting CD libraries and were touted as correcting the sins of traditional performance practice.
Remind me never to make you mad at me.
Hilarious! What a relief to hear someone popping the bubble of this infamous musical illusion. I have listened to several of RN's recordings, trying hard to appreciate them - and finally concluding I must lack musical discernment...
Ich würde nicht in allem zustimmen-aber weitgehend hat er recht. Diese sektenartige "Historic Playing" nonsense zu kritisieren, war überfällig. Danke
I will say one, one thing in Norrington's favour - try his live Vaughan Williams 6th with the San Francisco SO on CZcams which is very powerful. Perhaps the fact that RVW wasn't his usual shtick had something to do with it.
Thank the orchestra. He had nothing to do with it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide They certainly went for it.
I recently bought his Bruckner set. Thin, vibrato-free string sound; excessively fast tempi, as though he was anxious to finish and get to the pub. He seems to have no affinity with the composer.
Evidence of the merit of the free-enterprise system in the career of Boring-ton's effort: when the money ran out, so did the recording. If a record label could have made money on a disc of Carl Nielsen or Richard Strauss, then he would have done it.
Gee, I thought I had a Norrington Erato release. Now I learn it was an illusion.
You´re so right! I visited some concerts of Mahler Symphonies. Awful! Music with no feelings. The worst one was his interpretation of Mahlers ninth. This genious music was totaly destroyed of him. And so was his conducting of Sibelius...
The London Musical Industrial Complex LOL!
Radio 3 aired a performance VW's Pastoral Symphony by Norrington/Stuttgart.
It was most odd . . .
The “historical performance” and “period instruments” movements contributed greatly to the decline of popularity and accessibility of classical movement in the 90’s. There’s no way any young person who heard those tinny, out of tune performances of Mozart and Beethoven- not to mention the works of every talentless contemporary of theirs- would have developed a love for the music.
The 'George Santos' of conductors! The problem, to my unprofessional ears anyway, is that Norrington applies a Baroque template to everything he did in terms of phrasing and rhythm. He believes that music should should - must - be clockwork and mechanical, and any kind of 'romanticism' is a kitsch aberration and, what's worse, very un-English. He is aiming for sleek style but there's no style at all - only a military band gone wrong.
Romanticism un-English? I wonder how Norrington's Elgar then sounds... or did he rather avoid that native luminary altogether in order not to make critics uncomfortable? :)
And not even Baroque music should sound clockwork and mechanical. I despair for example at modern recordings of Bach's Brandenburg No. 3 which mainly seem to compete who can play it at most breakneck speed. Whereas a live performance with one instrument per part at a slower tempo with great articulation was enthralling and almost had me dancing in my seat. It brought out Bach's vision superbly.That took the good aspects of "authentic" performance and rejected the bad.
"Reeds made out of authentic French swamp creatures"? Yikes.
"...reeds made out of authentic swamp creatures."
:-))
The George Santos of conductors! I love it. I remember him conducting an awful Mahler 1 at the Proms and turning arms aloft to the audience at the final timpani thwack. Awful self-indulgent posturing.
Jeez, Dave! When are you going to make clear what you actually think about this music? 🙂
"The George Santos of conductors"! ROFLMAO!
Hello Dave,
actually I find your evaluation of Roger Norrington's work very compelling. Moreover, I too am not a friend of the allegedly authentic historical performance practice. However, what would interest me: You too sometimes talk about the fact that interpretations with modern instruments guided by historical performance practice can be interesting and important. What exactly are these ideas or concepts that make these performances more authentic and that, for example, were not used by great conductors like Szell or Reiner, or were not known at the time?
Not "more authentic," just good music-making along certain interpretive lines.
That’s good hatin’
Fantastic ; you spend half an hour, destroying Norrington. Let me tell you you are right, over and over. Vibrato has existed since Corelli, and music should have a warmer & much more accessible sound. I'm glad you have the courage to speak up ... "not a shred of musical distinctiveness"... yes Sir, you nailed it. I hope this trash is erased from the face of the Earth.
I adored his Beethoven when I first discovered it as it came out. But I was a teenager then and into rebellion. I admire them much less now. As well as the doubtful preformence practices, I think the actual recordings are quite poor. However I heard him conducting live once. Strangely enough it was Elgar's 1st Symphony with the Philharmonia Orchestra. It was superb. At the end of the slow movement there was a long silence before the whole audience audibly exhaled.
I've never heard Norrington conduct and only know him by his dubious reputation, particularly as regards his (in)famous London Classical Players LvB symphony cycle, so lauded by the Gramophone crew back in the day. ("If it's British, it's great!") So, I thought I'd check out the first movement of the 5th. What a bizarrely unfortunate performance, with no sense of musicality to the phrasing: everything blurs together in a rushed slurry of notes that fall somewhere between a bored legato and laziness. Add in a few weird dynamic swells from time to time, and there you go. No, thanks.
But I guess there is a less worst Norrington recordings.
I really appreciate your work, but this is a gross exaggeration. I am the last one to doubt in the least that Klemperer was a greater conductor than Norrington. But Norrington has his merrits. I remember his first full Beethoven cycle in Stuttgart, I was in all five concerts. He was not presenting a 9th worth discussing. But the 8th was different, new and - worth listening. Quite a few of the other symphonies as well. What I am more critical about is his aggressive rejection of all contemporary music. Last time I heard him was a few years ago in Berlin with a symphony by Martinu - he seemed to plan a full cycle of all symphonies at the time, in my opinion not a very good idea. He is certainly not one of the great conductors of our time. But he has made a certain possitive impact. Saying he is just a fraud, once again, that`s really too much. No, I will not buy this box, there are more important issues. However, just insulting him for more then half an hour, no, I just do not agree.
Fair enough, but those insults are facts. Let's be clear about that. You may not like the way I stated them, but they are true.
Jajajajajaja Musical guano!!! What a punchline😂
The same problem I have with Andre Rieu. He just kills classical music to me. Does beautiful music look like a kitsch.
I usually think your judgements about a lot of recordings are quite well formed. But you've got this all wrong. Sir Roger Norrington has been an inspirational figure, whose performances have opened up lots of repertoire to many people. His performance of Beethoven 4 is unmatched; his Rossini overtures CD is the best there is; his Haydn, Mozart and Mendelssohn (with LCP or Stuttgart or Zurich) is up with the very best. His Wagner, Bruckner and Mahler have been revelatory for many listeners. You shouldn't waste yours and others' time on stuff you don't understand or like. And such emotionally extreme titles to a review do you a disservice.
Well, that's one opinion. I'll stick with mine, however, and will "waste time" on what I choose. Enjoy your collection.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Of course, you can choose - it's your thing. But as a viewer, and admirer, when I see you are so good at certain things you do, e.g. when you are championing great recordings that may not be as well known as others (e.g. in Shostakovich, Sibelius, Mahler, etc), then it seems a shame to be spend time being negative, when you have so much positivity to share.
@@BambosNeophytou I spend very little time being negative. 99% of what I do is wholly positive. You are making something out of nothing because you disagree with my opinion, but you aren't going to scold me by falsifying what I do. Norrington is a joke. That's a fact. You may enjoy his musical stunts, but as I say on one of my T-Shirts, "You can like things that suck. Just admit it." And don't try to wave a sanctimonious finger at me because I don't share your opinion. I've been in this business for along time, and that strategy isn't going to work. You have every right to disagree. Leave it at that.
@@DavesClassicalGuide You are right to tell people to take another look -- technically "listen" -- to more viable performances by Klemperer, Munch, Szell, Jochum, Bernstein, etc, If it is more enjoyable listening then it is right.
Except for Beethoven symphonies 4 and 5 I almost never listen to "Borington" anymore.
Norrington is indeed the George Santos of classical music. If we didn’t have this character Santos, I guess we’d have have to invent him. If that isn’t a depressing commentary on the human condition, I don’t know what is. Norrington’s clearly held great talent in the art of self-promotion.
Never bought the Norrington sound. 🤢