2-way or 3-way crossovers?
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2018
- What types of speakers crossovers are best to use? A 2-way or 3-way crossover? Paul tackles this intriguing question, one that has plagued speaker designers for decades. Have a question you want to ask Paul? www.psaudio.com/ask-paul/
I am getting close to publishing my memoir! It's called 99% True and it is chock full of adventures, debauchery, struggles, heartwarming stories, triumphs and failures, great belly laughs, and a peek inside the high-end audio industry you've never known before.
I plan a few surprises for early adopters, so go to www.paulmcgowan.com and add your name to the list of interested readers. There's an entire gallery of never before seen photos too. - Věda a technologie
Servo woofers are a force to be reckoned with. The last time I heard one, I thought there was an earthquake for a moment before I realized it was the woofer. Punchy bass at such extreme low frequencies and volumes is different sounding and feeling than a traditional cone woofer.
Simple answer is for every driver`s intended frequencies band its own band pass is needed. It keeps the drivers from encountering distortion, breakup and frequency overlap.
Loved the video Paul!
I really really enjoy the insights you provide Paul. Your CZcams
channel is invaluable.
You're awesome. You sound like a good teacher. I was actually wanting more.
I was apprehensive about the video at first, but you crushed it. This also really cemented that I'm an audio nerd.
So glad I found this channel, thanks for the videos.
Great channel. I got a question. Has anyone done any measurements on the use of wall binding posts. Is the difference measurable and is it noticeable to the trained ear? I’m wanting to avoid using brush plates as it’s already cold enough as it is in my house.
Always great explanation .... thank you Paul..
I had one built a system with a pair of 18" subwoofers running from 20 hz to 60 hz, (4) 8" midbass drivers running from 80 hz to 300 hz, (4) 5 1/4" midrange running 300 hz to 3k, and (4) 1 in silk dome tweeters running 3k and up. Every speaker had its own amp channel @ 125 w RMS and crossed over at a minimum of 18 db per octave electronically. the split between the 8s and the 5 1/4" were doubly crossed over at 42 db per octave. talk about live! the snap of a snare drum rattled you as if you were standing feet from a live drummer.
Your setup Seems nearly the best that I would envy to own.... Ideally an optimum one would be to posess a 10-12 way ,24dB L-R x.over each 2 octaves wide starting with about (20-40),(40-80), (80-160), (160-320) and so on
Here each driver , will see the maximum of its 2nd harmonic only and no higher...
So each will have its own lowest I.M.D. and practically no colouration...
Hello, nice discussion, I've been reading and researching about DSP crossovers and how good are they at handling phase shift and all sort of electro/acoustic phenomena derived from pasive corssovers. My question is, are there some downside of using DSP crossovers acoustically speaking (because there must be some), forgetting the fact that you'll need aped speakers
Recently came into a PA system. 4 cabs, 2 with 4 15's & 2 with 4 12's & 2 horns. So problem I'm having is the top cabs have crossovers in them in which the previous owner unhooked the crossover. I'm wanting to hook it back up but I'm not sure how its supposed to b wired. 3 black wires & 2 reds & the black & reds all look the same so i can't tell what 1s went to what. Any suggestions?
A properly done 3-way beats a two way in my eyes, especially for larger speakers. I like the 3-way sound.
3+ ways are king
@@ChiefExecutiveOrbiter
🤘😁🤘
also in studio equipment
And the 4-way beats the 3-way.
Of course it does. You can’t get ANY 2 drivers to properly represent the entire frequency spectrum.
It's interesting that the human ear with a very small "Receptor" can appreciate such a wide range.
Ian Alton That's the beauty of the biological ear.
Indeed, couldn't agree more.....
Since the ear drum doesn't produce sound, it doesn't need to be tuned to any particular frequency. Think: radio tower antenna versus your car's antenna. Your car antenna picks up a wide range of freqs being only 1 length. The transmitter has to be tuned to the correct length.
the absolute genius of God..the ear is just a tiny but wonderful example
steve mcdonald Agreed 100%
Excellent explanation once again!!!
Helo sir, i have a doubt.i have 120+120w sterio amplifire and a 50w 8 ohm woofer ,30w 8 ohm midrange speaker and 20w 8ohm tweeter.which crossover have to buy.if i use 3way crossover what will be the speaker impedance. Can i use 3 way cross over with my speakers?
Unless you're Bose, in which case you pump it all through a 3.5" paper cone. :p
And charge every one as a studio monitor system
Hahahaha
They didn't always do that at Bose. Look up the Bose Capella CP-3000.
Can't say enough what Andrew Jones at elac is doing with the Unified series I swapped out a pair of Bose two ways with the unifies the UB 5's a few months ago and I'm hearing stuff I've never heard before on the same old system I've had since the 90s.
There's a good argument to be made for a 2.5 way system . Dynaudio used to have (still?) nice speakers like that with 2 x 7 inch woofers , one that was limited to 400 Hz : the added x-over complexity vis a vis a 2 way remains limited to a 1 extra low pass .
been looking for an explanation for a while now. Thank you oh so much for the advice.
Hi there!! Can I use a subwoofer in a three-way system ISO a woofer? If yes then how I may design a perfect crossover.
I like concept of doing the band filtering digitally, at line level, and then using discrete separate amplifiers for each set of drivers. Overkill for hi-fi purposes but for PA applications it's standard practice.
So basically active speakers? I have some and they're quite impressive, especially for bass!
What would you use for nearfield (below 2meters)?
Great explanation!
I own and use vintage JBL L100a loudspeakers. They sound good with a 12” driver playing full range, a 5” midrange, and a 1” tweeter.
The L100a tweeter and midrange each have one capacitor limiting how low they can play sounds. The tweeter and midrange in the L100a speakers also have volume controls so the user can adjust the intensity of their sound.
The L100a is an example of a very simple crossover that works.
Some loudspeakers have crossovers containing many parts that are designed to EQ each drivers output. These tend to require high powered amplifiers in my experience.
Crossovers sure are an interesting aspect of the audio options out there!
I got 4 ways with adjustable crossovers.
putting the crossover at a dip in room response is also a very good solution..
Curious about the capability of PS Audio speakers. Hope those can be sold at the prices Paul mentioned several times in the past. Audiophiles will benefit if they are Wilson Audio-killer, Magico-killer, etc.
i just bought crossovers for 2 way 10 in woofer and 1in tweeter and i bought it from dayton audio and it was 3000 hertz it said i dont now if i got the right one im frustrated I thought it would have more bass i just I am starting with building my own speakers just for fun what kind of crossovers can i buy already made
Paul I am really looking forward in those speakers you'll have!
Yep ... those will be lovely! Unfortunately, not on my budget. And some orchestral music have an important lower bass - like Villa-Lobos "The Train of the Caipira" that I heard live many times and that bass drum makes our body vibrate ... completely wihtout any amps!
I have disassembled 2002 Philips mini "hi fi" system 3 way speaker with bass reflex. I have expected to find a crossover, but only found one capacitor connecting tweeter. Low and mid range woofer were barehanded. Does it means Philips audio engineers choose good drivers, that they not need crossover? I have tested speaker system by listening every driver separately or disconnecting one of three drivers. In result, disconnecting low woofer - deep bass disappeared, mid woofer - audio become empty, only bass and voices I could hear, high driver - women voices were not pronounced. Does it means Philips 3 way speaker boxes are thoughtfully engineered?
Great videos thanks
Very good Paul...
Hi Paul, As matching the rolloff from the crossovers high and low pass filters is so difficult to get a smooth transition in frequency response, what do you think of the following?. Take say the high pass signal to drive the tweeter but also produce an equal gain inverted phase of this signal. Then add the inverted signal to the original signal. This cancel the high pass levels from the original signal, leaving you with a low pass signal. In theory at least, any specific frequency in the in the rolloff range will be represented in both the high and low pass signal such that their sum will exactly match the level of that frequency in the original signal. In effect we will not have changed the gain level of any of the frequencies throughout the whole spectrum. Could it work?
@Ken
Yes, you can do this very accurately with electronic crossovers and multi-amplifier speaker systems. And you can go another step further, by compensating for the frequency/phase response of the drivers so the net result is even smoother.
It's difficult to achieve with passive crossovers, however - especially if you're also considering driver responses.
Ok ta, So your saying that to do crossovers well requires some type of active system. So that would be an argument for installing active crossovers in say the preamp stage to support bi/tri etc amping. That seems to logically come together nicely.
What impact, if any, does adding a sub, with its own (usually) variable crossover, have?
punch, extended lows, lows your speakers can't register. basically makes up for what your speakers lack on the low end
5-way, in my case, for my main pair! But using active crossovers and multiple amps - and the effortlessness of the system is amazing. However, being just a hobbyist, I have never made any passive crossover higher than 3-way. As for "full range" speakers, that some people convince themselves to listen to, they are just bad, unless you only listen to a solo singer or solo saxophone...
I find that 4 way is easy....and 5 way is hard, but I am not about to stop trying...also using active crossovers. My current logic is that a supertweeter crossed over quite high might work as a 5th speaker.
Really great explanation! Following that I am finally at ease setting my 3-way speakers to "small" in my AV-R's settings because I now understand what it's doing (the subwoofer is connected via low-level input).
Looking forward to the day I have 2 subwoofers so I can run them via high-level inputs and practically build my own 4-way speaker array.
I run two subs, I was never really a sub for music guy. I had one with my surround system for movies but usually listened to music with my 2 two very large front 3-ways. They get down real low and sound great. Started messing with the sub and it made a difference for the better. saw people using two, so I picked up a 2nd. Just great, I didn't realize I was missing to much but it made a noticeable difference. I'm a two subber from hear on out
How do you do it, seamlessly? With active crossovers. See the Kef LS50 Wireless as an example.
Gorgeous amps Paul
Speaking of Audio is that electrical buzzing coming from this video or my audio? E.G. 0:55 Probably a dumb question but I don't hear it any other videos :s
If the passive crossover in speakers is such a pain to get right then why don't you try to design a system where a dsp splits the spectrum and then feeds individual speaker sets for each slice? I'm guessing here but given the flexibility added you could virtually avoid overlap. This was Radu Oprisan from Bucharest, Romania. Yeah, the place Dracula came from...
Same question. That just seems too easy. Less equipment for the consumer to purchase equals less profit.
This is a really good video.
Now if we only had three way ears on each side of our heads. One woofer ear. One midrange ear, and one tweeter ear. Hmmm? Would sound be processed better ?
Perhaps one day you can ask God that question and He will explain to you why He made the human ear the way He did. In the mean time I will trust that He knew exactly what He was doing. :)
Recommend me a crossover for a set of subs crossover 150-200hz low pass for the sub and a high pass for the main woofer.
I have a set of dvc 8" subs to go in a car, plan was to either have coaxial with a two way or components with a 3 way. Low frequency from LF LR to one sub RF RR to the other sub.
Head unit has a hpf which I'm using at the moment just to limit the bass but would rather have a crossover with a sub instead so that I can turn off the hpf and not worry about blowing the smaller woofers.
i think as technology has evolved its more like speakers can do MID range and we can add HIGH and LOW to them; as opposed to having LOW and HIGH with a compromise band where they overlap
Impressive answer, thanks Paul.
I would only remark that physics didn't found yet a single driver able to handle all the range of frequencies properly (that would be amazing) and that's the reason why we need different drivers and crossovers..
4 way with a minidsp and Dirac Live!
Respected sir, I have a basic question which may sound childish but here it is. First root question presented, "The cross over filters are filtering and not splitting the frequency i.e. masking some frequency to go to the driver unit which concludes to loss of signal/power". Is there a way to design something which instead of suppressing the frequency, splits the frequency and send to the driver unit from the network. I know we have active filter for such thing to reduce amplification/power loss from signal but for low budge project its not the option who have one amplifier say for 500 or 750 watts. Any suggestion will be a great help.
The crossover are Truly Filtering...OUT THE UNWANTED FREQUENCIES..TILL THE CROSSOVER POINT(crossover frequency)..FOR THAT PARTICULAR DRIVER..so it does both..THE FREQUENCY SPLITTING is gradual .. decided by the slope rolloff.. i.e. -6/-12 dB etc. as required (which also decides the amount of overlap).. but is just called a crossover...for simplicity..
@@analoghardwaretops3976 thanks sir
Any ETA on the speakers Paul ?
Hi Paul, Will New Zealand ever see your speakers stocked with a dealer?
Like your videos with all the info, it's great.
The very best sound I have gotten, and people have voluntarily told me how much they noticed the improvements is when I converted my speaker system into an active system rather than use all those components between the amps and the speakers. I also have my double subwoofers are also an active system . . . TERRIFIC . . . the detail, the precision of imaging, and the quality of very low distortion -- all produce some excellent accuracy in muical timbre. Even the singer becomes rather fascinatingly "live" with a mouth, tongue, and teeth . . . you watch people sit on the edge of their seats, almost as if hypnotized into being unable to listen as if they are listening to something they have never heard before . . I find that kind of fascination quite rewarding forb all the time and experimentation and time patiently invested in the hobby, and evenm much more for when you are listening go the system yourself and are still trying to milk out that last drop of grtting the most out of your system . . . wondering that if you tweaked it one more time and you tried this or that idea, what would happen. ;-)
Love my 4 way Pioneer HPM 100s , I paid over 400 bucks to have the crossover redone and i must admit for the money that i have in them Id be hard presssd to find better sound
1/2023: General question/statement. Why is it that JBL seems to like 2-way speaker systems over 3-way, while costing more than a comparable Klipsch 3-way system? They along with other brands sometimes choose 2-way speakers for their higher priced speakers? Yes I know. Big question with many variables. But still expensive to very expensive speakers that are just 2-way. Thanks. I have enjoyed this video.
Best explanation I've found. Thank you for making it "click"
Is this why you have a 73-way crossover in music room one?
Human ear is capable of hearing the range of frequencies from 20hz-20khz and can differentiate among the 3 forms of frequencies from low to midrange and high. Technology can split the three thru cross-over network or 3-way cross-over. I prefer to hear the 3 rather than 2 way as a multiple or variable sound.
Any particular reason you don't call a midrange speaker a "squonker"?
The ultimate system is a one way... but, there is something to be said about a well balanced 3 way -- flaws and all.
Yeah, but its so hard to make a single driver go, say 40-18k smoothly without any issues (like regions of overemphasis or breakup.) Maybe one day materials and tech will allow for it, but right now it's not there.
Sort of like the difference between masturbating and having a ménage trois :)
Keith. I agree. Polk has a small 3 way bookshelf, that you dont see many manufaturors try to do. I have a set of speakers, the Arcam alto, that has a 4 inch woofer, that has big bass, its a 2 way design that Im satisfied with. I could understand if a 6 inch woofer was added to it with a third order crossover. The 4 inch woofer is used as a midrange woofer in many 3 way speakers& really sounds great. A 4 inch woofer ,in ways sounds better than a 6 inch woofer. Up to a point, the smaller the woofer, the clearer the sound. A small woofer doesnt wobble as much as a big woofer. A sub isnt necessary. Subs are flubby. Records best sound is in the mids. Nobody likes a piano played way down low, they like the mids.
I've listened to a lot of fullrange. They all sound boxy and rolled off to me.
@@myronhelton4441 I disagree that subs sound flubby. A good sub, dialed in properly can add a really nice punch to the bass, and most speakers can't handle the lows like a sub can. I'm sure it has a great deal to do with the music you play. I run 2 subs and large 15" 3-ways and its awesome. Admittedly I listen to mostly rock, blues and metal, but most other types of music get played at our house and I like how the subs kind of complete the sound on the low end and adds some punch to the bass. I do agree about the smaller 3-ways. I have the Sony SSCS3 3-way towers for my rear surrounds. They have 2- 5.25" drivers a 1" tweeter and a 3/4" "supertweeter" with a front firing port. They were just for rear surrounds so I found an inexpensive speaker with great reviews. For the price range they are in I was amazed listening to them, really clean sound, decent bass. I liked the sound so much I feel guilty using them strictly for surround duty.
i use a 5 way active crossover subs , woofer , mid , tweeter , super tweeter
How to set up
I can't wait to get to a point in life where I can afford PSaudio gear.
Are you at that point in your life yet?
@@paulmorris563 i think i am dead before i can afford
there is a big difference when you have a 3way bass, mid and tweeter with a good crossover there is no comparison it is something magical ...
I wonder what he will pick
Since he goes on and on about dynamic range and loudness, he's a 3 way fan.
One day it struck to me that theory of statistics prove that 4-way speakers are better than broadband speakers. It's very hard to design a driver that has excellent performance across the all frequency response. Even if such speaker driver is designed, it likely that there is a driver that performs even better but only in certain frequency band and worse in other frequency bands. So you pick each driver for each frequency band and you should have quality without compromise. But can crossovers sound perfect? Can FIR filters be perfect or they are inherently flawed? That I don't know.
1979 Braun (ADS) made threeways like the l-710 that were uncoloured, boxless sounding, transparent and ruthlessly revealing. The $5000 a pair B&W 805N sound compress and poorly integrated by compare. In fact, it usually takes brutally expensive scan-speak revelator two-ways to come close.
lol you think ScanSpeak Revelators are dear, try buying ScanSpeak Illuminators... I have about 20 sitting in boxes, none of them under $300 each. But the Illuminators leave the Revelators for dead in sound quality.
What for are those two microwaves ?🤔🤔
Microwave with handles for both left handed & right handed people..
I'd rather hear about the advantages of the different order crossovers.
Toby. First order crossovers or no crossovers are best. Thiel, Sonus Faber, Vandersteen, Green Mountain have a first order crossovers. I know first orders are best.
In-phase crossovers are a better answer. The slope can always be changed with drivers and cabinet, but having them in-phase is the correct configuration. The downside? Dunlavy had his tweeters first order, and they'd blow up. Not steep enough of a slope for his design to filter out mids from the tweeter. The reason Thiel, Vandy and others are the best measuring, most coherent etc...they are in phase. 6db per octave 1st order is not the only in-phase slope. Most mid-fi speakers are not in phase.
Scott Lowell. What do you mean by In-phase.
musically, LR4 (4th order linkwitz-riley) is the best configuration for music. it has the flattest frequency response and the best phase coherence.
could you please tell me the difference between crossovers. Why is a 4th order linkwitz-riley the best.
I've always wondered why companies like Fender and Marshall don't put tweeters in most electric-guitar amps.
The typical frequency range of an electric guitar is around 50..5000 hz. No tweeter needed for that.
The sound would not be the "signature" sound they are known for by adding a tweeter. With instruments (guitars) flat and wide spectrum frequency response is not important or desired, instead a highly crafted sound that the manufacturer is identified with is the goal.
Guitar cabinets use speakers with a very High Q which is a narrow bandwidth (not full range ) so they typically produce treble pretty well.
I appreciate the answers. They're very helpful to this newbie guitarist who's just learning about gear.
Have you ever heard a guitar amp played through tweeters? Yuck!!!
Keep trying different gear - don't worry about sounding like someone else. The Vintage 30 speaker is a favorite and used by lots of guitar players, but it may not be the sound YOU are looking for. Focus on your playing, be yourself, learn something new every day, and experiment with noise. Most of all - HAVE FUN!!!
Yes, they are beautiful, and I will probably never be able to afford one
This is an impossible question to answer. The implementation is far more important than the number of drivers. There are terrific examples of all kinds on the market, all with their own strengths/weaknesses/compromises. Every designer will say their approach is the best one of course.
That's easy to answer...3-way.
"are these the..." you should know, you're the CEO
Paul is no fool he is very deliberate in drawing your attention to what he want you to focus on without it looking like he is doing it. I have noticed it in more than a dozen of his videos.
I found a a pair of Kenwood JL 515 3 way speaker system in an alley today for free.
💪
Where is that scratchy sound coming from?
your speaker?
googoo gjoob 2:00 its not my headfoans or speaker
i had no scratch...good luck
googoo gjoob 2:12 you don't hear that?
clear, straight thru
staying tuned for ur 4way... sounds awesome, except, i would let the 8" be a 10" and let it handle down to 50hz. probably start to roll off about 70hz
reason being, i hate the bass from a sub that is designed to reproduce low bass and high bass.
im a car audio guy, and an spl fanatic too. so that probably explains it.
@@sMASHsound that is because a sub is not part of the speaker and needs to be tned properly which is not an easy task. If a woofer in a 4 way system is made to go all the way to 20hz, rest assure that it has all been tuned to do that seamlessly, you as a consumer wont need to do a thing like what you would with a sub.
Someone please tell me if there are a lot of haters below (I love to hate them haters, you already know by now).
I do not wanna look... :)
3-Way SLI is better than 2-way so...
90% speaker needs optimal 4 way . fullrange speaker is for specially for personal use
Why have a 2 way when you can have a 3 way?
SundayMatinee That depends on the user. You give up a lot of control of the drivers through a speaker level crossover. What's plenty loud enough for one man is just 'getting there' for another. I tend to prefer a two way but that isn't the best choice for everyone.
Tweeters in 3-way speakers can sometimes sound harsh compared to a 2-way speaker of the same size.
I saw what you did there!!!
Nothing beats 3 way on a lazy sunday morning.
For a small room or tight budget it might be better with a two-way speaker. For one given amount of money you will get a better two-way speaker than a three-way speaker. But of course, it will be a compromise because the woofer in a two-way speaker will have to do both low and mid range. And it will usually not go as low as a similar three-way speaker.
No offense to the person that asked this question, but honestly, this is not a good question. Most "good" home speakers out there depending on the amount of drivers installed in the cabinet could have a 5 way cross-over. A 2 speaker system should a 2 way Xover, a 3 speaker system should have a 3 way Xover and so on and so forth.....
3 ways win, hands down...pity even the high-end consumer market has propagated the 2 way myth
Aww I'm second :P
boi
Bla blaa blaa ...