Matt Allen The G&L tremolo has No flaws, is the best trem Leo FENDER ever made, unless you count in to consideration the system 1 tremolo made by Schaller for FENDER in the 80's but both of those tremolo are "whammy proof" meaning no matter how much abuse or starts in tune.
@@auntjenifer7774 Hiya ... I've tried it on two of my G&L's ... both unfortunately obey Braun's (F)Law. So whilst I agree the Dual Fulcrum trem is absolutely one of the best designed out there it's still not immune. And I'm sure someone will say it's this or that but I keep my guitars in good order and the nut and trem are both lubricated etc etc...
@@northernbrother1258 That one has been done to death ... suffice to say everyone just ignores the fine details and skips right to the easy truth - it only matters if it matters to you but don't get too excited if no one else is worried about it. Also just to warp your noggin, its not really just a vibrato either ... I know just keep quiet before everyone tries to wade right in!
@@northernbrother1258, the misused terminology of Tremolo and Vibrato is down to Leo Fender himself in the 1960s having a tremolo circuit built into the Fender Amps of that time. He patented and marketed that name of Vibrato as to this effect; from that people associate this function to that given name. Over 50 years since then and people are still getting the two mixed up together.
The reason for this is really quite simple. When a string is bent, the entire trem "gives" a little from the added tension of bending the string. As you release the bend, the trem resettles into its place and redistributes tension most evenly among the 5 unbent strings. Since the system isn't entirely friction-less, The bent string is a little "late to the party" so a tiny bit of its tension is redistributed among the 5 others as it falls into balance. That is why diving, then letting them all fall into place at the same time is the fix For anyone saying it is friction at the nut, yes....that happens. But it isnt what we are talking about here because this also happens even with the locking nut on a floyd so..........
That’s not the reason. Use a wound third and this problem won’t happen. It’s the low tension of the plain third that causes the problem. Remember guitars were never meant to have plain thirds. I’ve got a PRS tuned to C# standard with a wound third, and there are no tuning problems on big bends of the plain top two strings, or the third, but you can’t really do those kinds of bends with a wound third...so it’s more or less a solution that no one really wants. At standard tuning the third has the least amount of tension on it compared to all the other strings, it’s just not enough to keep the system stable.
I always thought it was a situation I only had on my guitars with trems, and now I see it is just a reality of floating trems. You have no idea how much you just helped my OCD about tuning on my floating trem guitars.
Darrell, do you happen to have a twin brother (Darren) that's causing all these trem issues?? LOL! Seriously, all my guitars that I have with trems have the same flaw, so I rarely play them anymore and stick with my hardtail guitars. I also have tuning stability issues with my Casino with the trapeze tailpiece. Keep up the great work and Happy New Year!
I also use my whammy bar as a tuning mechanism . A very good guitar player thought me to turn it , and lightly given it a wiggle ... It makes the guitar tune itself , to itself . I was lucky to have played on meny stage settings . I would tune quickly between songs .
What blows my mind even more is that I was SURE everyone already knew that and got on with it (I couldn't so I blocked the trem-bridge on my strat and only bought non trem guitars after).
@@gearsofsounds I see a lot of these guys like Robert Baker using these trems and I have to say I am very much impressed with their skills, and a tad envious lol. But for me I don't use a jiggle stick enough to make it an issue. 3 of my guitars came with one and I rarely use them. I more play classic rock and well they didn't really use those fancy things that much. Back in those days you were too drunk or high to have to deal with working another moving part on your guitar lol. I remember in the 80's Ace Frehley started using a Les Paul with a whammy bar on it, oh did he catch a lot of grief!! Ace has killer vibrato action as well as bends and to not use those but instead a whammy bar was sacreligious to his fans lol.
Darrell - I think I found the solution: Tremolo intonation problems seem to be most common on the low E and G strings, as the "break angle" at the saddle is the most acute. This happens because those saddles are the furthest back due to compensating for intonation. And that causes the most friction on different parts of the Tremolo unit. I found the exact spot that was causing my 3rd string to go flat when doing an upward bend. Under the saddle, there is a hole in the tremolo mounting plate that the string comes through. On my tremolo (Super-V Bladerunner) the string exits that hole at a very sharp angle, and then goes over the saddle. The sharp angle that the string makes going out of the hole was the problem. Using a fine grain rat-tail file, I rounded the front edge of the hole and put about a 45 degree angle into it. I only filed about 1 mm off of the front edge of the hole, and made sure it was nice and smooth. Now I can deep dive (1 octave down on the 6th string) and pull up on the tremolo (a minor 3rd up) then release the tremolo bar, and my strings return back perfectly in tune. It's amazing how well it worked, when I finally figured out where the problem was. It sure is fun not having to worry about intonation problems any more no matter how wild I go using the tremolo bar. Hope this helps others that have this very common problem. There may be an easy way to test if the solution above might work for you. Get a small diameter insulated wire. Remove the wire from the insulation without damaging the insulation. You'll probably need about a 1-inch length. Thread your G string through the the insulation, then position the insulation over the sharp bend that comes through the hole in the base of the Tremolo. Tune up the string, and test it. If the string stays in tune when bending, that that friction point is probably the culprit.
There's a small "flaw" to that logic. He mentions his Sophia trem suffers from the same issue. That one is top loaded, thus there is no sharp angle on any string. Its minimal, something like 5º if even that much. Also, the block has adjustable stabilizers that force the trem retain zero. So no, sharp angles are not the issue. The one one trem i thought could beat the flaw is that one, and yet, it does not.
@@00Resev I only have personal experience with a 1982 reissue Strat bridge, and the Bladerunner Super-V Tremolo. I've chased the intonation problem for years. The solution that I posted about is the only one that I've found that worked for me. I just wanted to report that, in case someone has a tremolo with a similar design. As always YMMV, particularly with different designs. Thanks for posting your comments. This intonation problem has been a difficult one to solve.
The best solution is using the damned whammy bar instead of doing the big bends, that's what it is for, pull the bar instead of bending, if you keep moving it, it will come back to "zero"
@Musica Fidelitas I just came across a few of CZcams videos demonstrating a Wilkinson Tremolo with "Locking Saddles" that appears to get rid of the tuning instability on the bridge side of the equation. Just do a search for: "The ULTIMATE SADDLES? • Wilkinson WLS-130 Locking Saddles" or "WHAT'S UP WITH THAT BRIDGE ON YOUR BLUE SUHR? Pete Thorn/Suhr/Wilkinson" and "A locking Wilkinson Trem? A chat with Trevor Wilkinson."
fa·tal /ˈfādl/ adjective leading to failure or disaster. "there were three fatal flaws in the strategy" synonyms: disastrous, devastating, ruinous, catastrophic, calamitous, dire !!!FATALITLOL!!!
Living in the GOOGLE age now. No points for being Igno-Rant AND Arrogant. You got Siri, Cortana and Alexa on standby to research Yer little snarky swipes and make you look like an educated man.
I may have a surprise for you Darrell. Im a pedal steel player and have experienced the same problem you are talking about every time I pressed a pedal to raise or lower my 5th string. I searched for years trying to correct this problem. After the pedal throw this string would constantly come back our of tune. Finally I came across a solution given to me by George Jones pedal steel player. My 5th string was a solid 22 gauge that caused the problem . I changed the string to a 22 wound and bingo no more out of tune string after the pedal throw. It has something to do with string hysteresis. Who cares the problem is fixed. I would bet a Coke that this is the same problem your talking about.
Old video I know, but the hipshot trem setter and the modem equivalents (I know there is a magnetic one now from a couple companies) was partially designed for this problem (and to return to zero when using the bar)--keeps the bridge from moving with bends, returns the bridge to zero with the bar, and makes alt timing a lot easier without having to retune all the strings SO MANY TIMES. I have one in a strat with the vintage 6 screw and it seems to do all these functions pretty well. Plus they were stock in some of the old plus series (that also had the roller nut stock)
Darrell, try using 10-52 gauge strings. It helped solve all my tuning issues on floating trems. (Except on Floyds, never seen that happen on a floyd before.)
Leave it to Ibanez to solve this problem! The innovators in trem design, IMHO. research the Ibanez ZPS or "Zero Point System". It has been around for a few years. I have one on my 2012 model Prestige RG 3570. It does add a little more stiffness to the trem but it works!
interesting timing DB. this topic is being discussed at length on the Gretsch-talk forum right now. Apparently, the Flaw isn't limited to thru-body trem systems alone. Bigsby systems do it too. Do you have this issue with your thinline Tele or Gretsch guitars?
Thanks, Darrell. Your counsel in your videos has blessed many guitarists: myself included. As for me, I'll never be sufficiently skilled to match the Greats, whether of Julian Bream, Joe Pass, Johnny Smith, or their contemporaries. But I hang on to your videos to help my creative heart to have some quiet fun in my life. No money made, but always a smile every day.
Try a Supervee Mag-lock. It helps keep the bridge from rising when finger bending, yet allows full floating trem action. I have one on my Mexican Standard, and I really like it. Steve from Boston did a great albeit long 2 part review of it, well worth checking out.
This is the famous Shrödinger's Trem problem. When taken in isolation, strings have a clear "in tune"/"not in tune" state but when coupled together through a floating bridge the system they build moves between a "balanced" / "imbalanced" state which is based on a complex, quantised set of string states. The more strings there are, the more combinations there can be of "not in tune" strings leading to a "balanced" bridge and an observer cannot know these states without playing them, which in turn affects them, making exact knowledge an impossibility. There is a important theory about quantum tuning which I shall not expose here. At least we know we have no dead cats in these guitars.
No dead cats in these guitars. However, wasn't that sign on the headstock something in the vein of Ratocaster? Or was i blinded by the camera light that made a blur/flash just at the beginning of that word?
Darrel, I think Trev Wilkinson solved this fatal FLAW with his Gotoh's VSVG and the Sung Il's WV6/WVP6/WVP trem systems. It has staggered holes in the block to make the plain G has the same drop angle as the high E string. He explained it quite well in the StewMac interview video. It would be interesting if you would revisit this issue with the Wilkinson trems.
Regarding Tuning Instability associated with Tremolo Units, EVH used to wind the strings up on the Tuner Post instead of down to improve tuning stability, as he wanted to reduce the break angle behind the nut. On my Strat, the low E and G string tended to return sharp after deep dives. Winding just those 2 string up the Tuner Posts has reduced the problem substantially. Once the strings are properly stretched, my Tremolo now stays almost perfectly in tune even with repeated deep dives.
Darrel, thanks for this marvelous video! I would like to give you two hints, please verify them. First, I have set up my standard Fender 6-point vibrato floating. Normally, I tune the plain strings in a way that I repeatedly bend and re-tune them until they stay in tune. Then playing my Strat, using the whammy only UPWARDS (i.e., toward the flush position) but NEVER downwards, none of the strings that have been bent will be released (but even more strained instead), therefore they remain tense all the time, causing minimal de-tuning (if any). I think Hank Marvin of the Shadows employed this method... Second, the physical principle of hysteresis describes exactly your observation of that "flaw": pull a spring by hanging a weight on it and remove the weight thereafter, the spring will NOT assume its original size but remains somewhat longer, this phenomenon is called hysteresis. The spring would assume its original length only after pressing it together to a certain extent, i.e. after a movement in the opposite direction. I can also observe the flaw (i.e. de-tuning) if I set up my vibrato "decked" (since the same physical rule of hysteresis applies here, too). To make matters worse, a floating vibrato is a complicated system, containing not only one "spring" (the string itself) but also the springs of the metal block, all having their own hysteresis.
Thanks for this Darell! This also bugs me for quite a time. Having the same issue on my Tele with bigsby b5 trem system copy and Strat with classic 6 screws trem system in floating setting. That's also what I do to fix the tuning issue after a huge bend haha. Now I know I'm not alone 😁👍
Thank you for sharing this information! I’ve been playing for 20+ years and I didn’t know about this flaw. I just thought I had to retune when I would do a lot of bends. I have a trem bar on my Strat, and I have a new assignment for myself now.
Love your vids, Darrell! Thanks for all the well-presented and useful info. For your problem, use a Black Box style stabilizer and increase the trem spring tension. That way you aren't at the mercy of balancing the spring/string tension to keep your bridge level. You can then favor the spring tension so it holds the block firmly against the stabilizer (which has its own tension adjustment). The bridge stays in a "blocked" position whenever it's at rest, even with finger bends. Tremsetter won't do it. Mag-loc will change the feel as it locks/unlocks. Hope this helps!
Just tried it on my Godin Velocity , same thing G string detunes , hit the trem and back in tune. Don't really use the trem a lot so never really noticed good vid Darrell
I have some thoughts on this after watching this and have been working on a tremolo design as a personal project while studying mechanical engineering and will most definitely try to tackle this problem with my project now. My current design may actually remedy it completely as it doesnt pivot the way modern trems do. I will absolutely let you know if and when I can afford to build a working model of my design.
I have a 2010 Mexican Strat. Everything is stock except the pick guard. I floated the trem after watching your how-to video. Added the spring in the hole the arm screws into. After watching this video, I tried it out. It came back into perfect tune every time. I thought I must've been doing something wrong, so I really abused it. It still came back in tune.
I'm not at home now to check it out, but probably the thing called Goldo Backbox helps. It looks like a stopper, but it has an adjustable spring. This way you can still push and pull floating trem, but it kinda helps it to be in its default state.
2:04 You mean that wasn't just my cheap Ibanez guitar??? I put that guitar away thinking it was just trash, Sorry Darrell I wanna keep watching but I gotta go dig my old baby out. IBANEZ I'M COMING FOR YOU OL' FREIND I DIDN'T FORGET ABOUT YOU I'M SO SORRY!!! 😥
If it is a very gross change in tunning, it may be a double zero point, it happened to an old Ibanez with edge III trem I bought once. Now I have one with Edge Zero trem and this effect happens only with bends and it's very subtle.
Dear Darrell, Thank you for bringing this topic up. It bugs me to the point I almost stopped using my Strat (I observed this with blocked tremolo too). My thoughts (which can be wrong): IMO there are 3 possible reasons for G string going flat: 1 - NUT: Friction between the string and the nut. When string bent, it moves inside the nut slot towards saddle, but does not return back after bend released, and tension reduced. 2 - SADDLE: Friction between the string and the saddle. Similar to above, string moves on the saddle towards the nut but does not return. 3 - TREMOLO: Position of tremolo changed after the bend, and it only returns back after diving the tremolo. I excluded reasons like old/dirty strings or slack on machine heads as string will not return after diving the tremolo. One can make simple experiments to eliminate options above. I don't think it's a nut (1). One can verify it by pushing the strings behind the nut (between the nut and the machine head). This will cause the string move backwards through the slot and should make it return to original tuning (or even make it sharp). Also your guitar with locking nut confirms it. I don't think it's (3) either. It can be eliminated by checking the tuning of other strings after the bend. If other the strings go flat too - then it's tremolo moved. Otherwise - tremolo returns to original position Finally moving the string on the saddle (2) which is the hardest to eliminate. Can we mark the string/saddle with sharpie and see if it moved after the bend? Not sure if the movement is significant enough to see it. Finally, thank you much for the great content, keep doing what you're doing, love the channel!
Hi Darrell! Enjoyed a few of your videos,like the '15 myths',the one on the Gretsch,and this one. The G string seems to be the place where all the the string tension seems to settle,in 'almost' all guitars 've tried. Maybe the Trans Trem,from Steinberger,was a solution,although complicated. Thanks for your effort.
Cool vid as usual! If all it takes is to bring it back up with a pull, maybe just mute the strings for a second and do it before you go for the next lick. I feel like it's one of those things that are annoying at first but become second nature over time. Whatever the case, I NEED my floating trem. It's integral to how I play my strat and I am not changing it. Odd thing though.
Steve Rothery from Marillion talked about this annoying thing years ago, but the trem is such a big part of his playing style. If you watch him live you’ll see he dives that Kahler so many times. You learn to live with it.
Hmm... I don't really seem to be having this problem, but I DO have a specific way of setting up my trems (mostly Floyds) which is that rather than having 3 springs which are not under much tension, I almost always have 2 springs which are under HIGH tension (i.e. claw almost screwed in fully) so the springs are in the middle of their travel, and are quite stretched when in balance and the guitar is in tune. I also oil every spring eye and hook, and put a tiny bit of oil in each string saddle. I even slightly oil the claw screws!
You might also factor in that the jm vibrato isn't really intended for big bends and dive bombs. But with a good setup, it'll stay in tune for anything
Now that's interesting. My best guess would have to be it's something to do with the springs inside the guitar. Maybe it has to do with how bending a single string pulls the bridge forwards from one point in the middle versus the bar moving the whole bridge from the side. So a bend changes the forces that balance the trem unevenly on the string side while the bar equally changes both at the same time. Hopefully that made sense?
?What is The Secret Van Halen got from Jeff Beck? Randy Roads asked Van Halen how he kept his slammy in tune. VH said, "oh, Jeff Beck showed me that. It's a secret; can't tell you that..." ?What's the F'N secret! is he talking about!? (And does The Secret have the Fatal Flaw anyway?... .
I think the key thing is to use your ear and the bar to control pitch. The system is dynamic and never perfect but that's part of the sound... I like to practice plugged into a tuner and use the bar to get as close to pitch as possible. Also make sure all mechanical points are lubbed with 3-in-1 oil, PRS recommends it on their setup guide and it helps alot. I don't lube the nut though.. I feel it effects tone and string life. Use your ears above all though and keep the bar handy to control everything. It is an art to use a whammy musically and I feel naked without one lol..
That's funny. Solution : play like Jeff Beck. Having trouble? Oh well. Eddie VH lied a lot early on to develop a mystique and divert people away from figuring out the technical stuff behind his sound. I wouldn't take his "secret" too seriously.
@@peterwelsh1932The secret is having a full time guitar tech to constantly setup your guitar. A good setup is all you need. A double locking Floyd with a proper setup will stay in tune for months.
you need more trem springs! Most players use just 2 or 3 springs and some put them in at an angle. Putting them in at an angle creates uneven tension across the block. For a floating trem to work properly, you need at least four springs of even tension and parellel and then have your trem set up properly. Additionally, make sure you have a set of springs with an equal tension. Most people don't realize that trem springs have different tensions, so it is important to have a matched set, additionally springs do wear out and should be replaced when they do (as a set).
I wish I had the answer. I played the same game as everyone else. I came to a decision buying all these magic guitar parts on line to help keep your guitar in tune is alot of crap. I've had them all. If I kept all the money I've spent on guitar mods I could purchase a new custom shop stratocaster or prs custom 24 ten top. Just know the guitar you have and learn what impact the nut, string tree, tuners, saddle and tremelo have on your strings. There are great videos of setups for all the name brand guitars. I love the tone of stratocasters . I personally have never had a new custom shop stratocaster that had the nut cut correctly. Whenever I would do a whole step or half step bend on the 3,2 or1 at least three strings go out of tone about 5 cents flat with or without a floating tremelo and this is with the strings stretched and the nut,string tree and saddles lubed. Also with the neck relief checked and confirmed as .010. I've been chasing guitars for 7 years and the only guitar that did not go out of tune right out of the box was a 5 year old prs custom 24 .
Nice vid! I started keeping my strat set up super tightened with 5 springs just to copy SRV as a teen, (I've never been a fan of diving up in pitch anyway) and it definitely solves this issue - solid as a rock. But then again, it's not floating at that point
Amazed, especially with the locking nut as well. Truly baffled. Im working on a custom strat ting for my daughter, she’s wanting zero fret style nut and a hardtail bridge. Out of curiosity I’ll do the zero fret first with the standard factory floating trem bridge. Might even let you guys know if it works. 🤓
I've been chasing this issue on every floating trem equipped guitar I've owned for over 30 years. I've tried all of the things mentioned here to mitigate it with varying levels of success but nothing has cured it 100%. I've just grown accustomed to automatically hitting the trem arm after playing passages with big bends. It's no longer a conscious act... just autopilot. Funniest thing, is that the guitar I purposely built to escape this issue suffers from it the most. A Strat with a Wilkinson two-point, roller nut, roller string trees, and locking tuners. It's a MONSTER player, but G goes horribly flat after big bends. Go figure.
Me too. I've found that simply keeping on playing....in several seconds, if the nut is lubbed with chapstick or graphite, it will come back to pitch. The best non-locking setup I've had was a MM JP6. It had a nut with a high percentage of graphite. No problems returning to pitch, but the nut material was soft and wore the slots too low pretty quickly. I wanted to buy another, but they won't sell them individually.....go figure
@Question Everything please elaborate on properly cutting a nut slot on a roller nut. Or, explain how it's still a nut slot issue . Reading is fundamental.
my jackson soloist professional xl have that problem also.. and thats a original schaller floyd rose with locking nuts and saddles.. that problem is actully the main reason i started play on stop tail guitars... still have the jackson tho.. just rarlely play it... ***sry for grammar, english my 2nd langague
Thanks a lot. Your video prevented me from spending a lot more money on different tremolos to try and solve that... From now on I'll stick to double locking or hardtail.
I am part of several guitar groups on FB. Folks often ask why G keeps going out of tune and how they can fix it. I always post this video link. Good job.
You have nicely demonstrated a form of hysteresis due to stiction and how to achieve correct equilibrium through application of dither. The problem can be mitigated by lubrication of all moving surfaces in contact: nut, saddles, fulcrum and spring contact points. Personally I lock down the tremelo (which really should be called a vibrato btw) because they suck out the tone.
Love this ol intro! So Crafty! Look.. this flaw l believe is remedied with adding another spring on the trem. We want it easy, to sway effortlessly with the slightest touch, but if you want the bridge to return to zero you need more tension to do so, obviously your guitars do not have enough spring tension to do so.. give it a try.. l bet you will get the result you are looking for but at the expense of having to use a lil muscle..
Saw a video with Guthrie Govan playing on stage with Hans Zimmer . He broke a string, the guitar went completely out of tune, so he just picked up a slide and completely improvised a solo until his tech could get him the spare guitar.
Hey, NO FLAW HERE at my guitar! Ibanez rg320dxfm (made in indonesia), has edge 3 floyd style bridge. Can post a vid if you'd like. Everything on the guitar is stock, the locking nut, the springs, all of the hardware, everything.
Darrell, great video! I've been looking for some content on this issue - it's actually hard to find because the key words for the problem return videos/forums on strings going out of tune while bending (which isn't the problem). We're talking about the strings out of tune after a bend is complete. Anyhow - what's interesting is the other strings (the non-flat one) go sharp in tune when this issue happens. My assumption is the bent string is the other strings are the main problem - they are pulled sharp as you release tension back down during the bend, since they aren't being bent. Another thing to consider, is why do some strings have this problem more than others? There is a video on youtube about "tremelo training" but it doesn't seem to be a full solution - only a work around that has its own limitations. As I posted earlier - there's a video of David Gilmour doing huge bends and returning back in tune without needing to use the trem. Also as we know Yngwie Malmsteen was heavy with bends and there are clips of him not having to use the trem to go back in tune. I can't mention Jimi Hendrix because he was nutorious for playing out of tune and rarely played standard chords that would expose the tuning issue. IF you have a solution - we are all here waiting to hear about it!
I'm guessing the springs aren't loaded enough to pull the bridge back when it's ever so slightly moved out of balance, until you wiggle the bar. Have you tried greasing up any contact points to reduce friction?
Scott Fossil I agree. Put stiffer springs in the back to return it back to the correct position. Like on a 4X4 suspension where you have variable rate coil springs (they’re thicker/stiffer on one end) that start off stiff but lessen as it gets compressed. In this case they need to be the opposite because we are stretching not compressing the springs. So a variable rate extension spring that holds tight to begin with but is easily overcome with the term bar and also to return back to neutral completely should solve the problem. Just my 2 cents.
Get a real double locking trem. An Ibanez with an edge or lo-pro edge should tackle this with ease. If you have a double locking trem that does this, something is wrong. Most likely the locking pads are still letting the string slip through. I'd also challenge that a lot of fixed bridge guitars will have a similar flaw.
Ive had this happen on a few guitars. It wasn’t the tremolo for mine... was the nut. Remedied by slightly filing the nut slots. They were catching when I’d bend the G and B strings. Doesn’t happen at all now. I’ve never had this happen on a Floyd. Interesting and puzzling that’s happening on all those different guitars? I’ll ask a few of my Luthier friends and get back to you.
I have known exactly why since the 80’s. You will find if you tune the g to a b the issue goes away of course non playable. We have a new trem that locks the string as it leaves the saddle. It doesn’t do this.
Hi John! I'd love to review one for the channel if they are ready for production :) I think a lot of my viewers would be very interested to see it in action!
Hey! It's That Guy! -talking to The Guy here! woah... Hey! -What about the Hipshot Tremsetter? Is that supposed to address this issue. Anywho: yeah, "New Suhr Trem" video would be cool. I just got an Yngwie scalloped neck and need to build the rest of the guitar. First question: What kind of Tremolo? Ideally something that looks good (jazzmaster/ Bigsby/ Jigzby?) but plays like my Parker Fly?
Lando27Music Me too. Can get plenty of vibrato in the hands. Love to bend strings and nobody dive bombs anymore. The eighties are long over. My next axe is definitely gonna be a Jr. Single p-90 and a wrap around bridge. No muss, no fuss, rock machine
There is even bigger of a flaw-while you're bending, even slightly, all other strings go out of tune temporarily. If you have to hit a note (or leave it resonating) while bending another one, you're out of luck on a floating trem system.
Weird. I haven’t had a guitar with a Floyd since the early 90’s but it never exhibited this problem, which is what sold me on the Floyd. My Suhr Pete Thorn model is the first non Floyd guitar to have “Floyd stability”. Must be the locking tuners and locking Wilkinson saddles! ;)
I completley agree with everything youve said coming from someone who plays strictly on floating trems. Even my 7 string has a floyd only guitar that doesnt do this is the zpse edge zero II with the stop bar(also helps with the double stop bend issue on floating trems) in my own experience. I have this trem on my ibanez. Ironically i only ever break a string when tuning and always at the bridge never the nut or tuners
When you bend, because the trem is floating, the trem moves ever so slightly with the bend. There is not enough resistance to pull the trem that minuscule turn back in order to keep tune. This is why it is slightly flat. When you then use the trem the resistance is increased and it goes back to the correct, in tune, spot. FRICTION is the enemy.
I may have found a solution : the majority of floating trems operate on knife edges that present either a straight vertical edge or sharp angular cuts that come in contact with the screws or posts. My brother's floyd rose special doesn't have that issue as a result of him sanding and smoothing out his knife edges which had corroded a bit. I tried doing the same on my wilkinson trem (tedious work, as it's a 6-screw) and boom that G strings stays in tune even after serious bends !
Try a product called the trem setter! I think I read about it once it's a device you mount on the spring cavity and it basically pulls the trem back into perfect position after ever time you use the trem !
Project Super Strat cannot have a flaw! Say it isn't so or I won't eat for a week! (you can always crank up the distortion and no one will even notice). ;)
I just got used to wiggling the bar often to stay in tune. It’s become part of my technique. I usually wiggle it on a rest so I don’t have to have trem bends throughout the piece.
I got around that by making the bridge on my SE flush against the body and threw on some thicker strings and locking tuners. I rarely go off tune with that guitar now unless the weather is being weird.
Great video as always! Have you ever checked out Stetsbar trem systems? Just got one and I'm installing it on my project tele! You should check them out!
I had one for Strat briefly and it was no better than a cheap fender 6 screw. It's been a few year's but if I remember correctly the main issue had to do with how it clamped to the Strat. The Tele one probably works better since it is mounted on a plate that is screwed to the body.
I had a Stetsbar ,it was terrible ,zero sustain past the 10th fret .Total junk . I Like Kahlers with floyd rose locking system ,or with Fender roller nut with locking tuners ,still get a bit of the G string tune out on bends ,but just tap the bar and it's back in,get used to it really ,to be honest the Kahlers dont go out of tune much at all .
I have a Stetsbar on a Tele Deluxe and it works great. Tone is wonderful and no sustain issues. Put one on a Gibson SG and lost sustain bigtime up high around the 12th fret.
Couple of things: 1. Avoid tremolo systems with loose connections to the body or floating saddles. In my opinion, cheap Wilkinson style trems are more trouble than they are worth. 2. Make sure the spring tension is set up so your trem is exactly parallel to the body of the guitar. If it's sitting to high or too low, it can cause the issue in this video. 3. Make sure you're using enough springs to allow the bridge to sit firm when it's not being used. I like to use at least 3 for 10 gauge string. If you have to screw the trem claw all the way into the back of the trem cavity to get your trem to sit level, you should add a spring. 4. Jokes aside, make sure you keep you nut lubricated. If it's a graphite nut, the pencil trick works great. This eliminates friction at the nut. 5. Avoid trem-equipped guitars where the strings are not inline from the nut post to the headstock. For example, Gibson-style headstocks will caused a ton of string slippage at the nut; especially if you play with a bunch of bending or extreme bending. 6. Make sure you properly stretch your strings before you set your intonation after each re-string. This is important on any guitar, but especially important for floating trem guitars. 7. For trem systems that use blocks to press against the string (like a Floyd Rose or variant), make sure the blocks aren't cracked. 8. For knife edge trems, make sure the edges on the trem posts haven't worn down. This will inevitably happen after you've played a bunch and affect the guitar's ability to return to pitch after using the trem.
Hey ! Just read your comment after I posted mine: seems we agree on most points :) Additionally, I just use stronger wound strings than classic sets, found out it gives additional stability to the system.
@@frantisca Hi! I didn't see your original comment, but I suppose great minds think alike. :) Great additional tip. I like using 10 gauge Elixir Opti-Web or D'Addario NYXL strings on my floating tremolo guitars.
@@frantisca : I agree about the heavier strings improving stability. My American HSS Deluxe strat came with 9s and when I changed to 10s it seemed to help.
You can fix this with a little petroleum jelly on the tremolo posts where the edge contacts. I put this on my Ibanez Edge 3 about 10 years ago and it has basically always returned to pitch since. Done the same with Floyd Rose since. So I think that the biggest flaw is that all the other strings drop in pitch when you bend a string which makes unison bends sound bad. I actually pull up on the trem arm a bit to compensate.
Braun's (F)Law ... there are no known exceptions at this time. Just tried it on my G&L Dual Fulcrum. Dang...
Matt Allen The G&L tremolo has No flaws, is the best trem Leo FENDER ever made, unless you count in to consideration the system 1 tremolo made by Schaller for FENDER in the 80's but both of those tremolo are "whammy proof" meaning no matter how much abuse or starts in tune.
@@auntjenifer7774 Hiya ... I've tried it on two of my G&L's ... both unfortunately obey Braun's (F)Law. So whilst I agree the Dual Fulcrum trem is absolutely one of the best designed out there it's still not immune. And I'm sure someone will say it's this or that but I keep my guitars in good order and the nut and trem are both lubricated etc etc...
So this SUPER picky, but why do prop call it a tremolo when it's a vibrato???
@@northernbrother1258 That one has been done to death ... suffice to say everyone just ignores the fine details and skips right to the easy truth - it only matters if it matters to you but don't get too excited if no one else is worried about it. Also just to warp your noggin, its not really just a vibrato either ... I know just keep quiet before everyone tries to wade right in!
@@northernbrother1258, the misused terminology of Tremolo and Vibrato is down to Leo Fender himself in the 1960s having a tremolo circuit built into the Fender Amps of that time. He patented and marketed that name of Vibrato as to this effect; from that people associate this function to that given name.
Over 50 years since then and people are still getting the two mixed up together.
Did you try turning it off and back on again?
+1000 for It Crowd reference! 🥇🏆🥇
That fixes everything...
Best comment that I've read for a while ! Classic !
My guitar just crashed, should I reinstall the OS?
Ctrl+alt+del twice.
Just broke a string on my Les Paul and was literally oh that's weird haha
Eyyy wassup Rob
bet ya it stayed in tune like my Les Paul does when I break a string
Nu uh the truss rod can lose tension from a broken string and throw you out tune on hardtails
@@williamspetter2823 from one string? Really not noticeable and uncommon
@@williamspetter2823 you right, either way its not as bad out of tune as on a Floyd or floating trem. :)
I fought the flaw and the flaw won.
Comments like that are why I come to youtube!
@@mark-dietz HAHAHAHAH!!! Good one!
Thanks! Made me laugh out loud which is kinda rare these days. It helps to be a bit old to appreciate this though (old song).
I like that snark and reference to a big old hit
Floor.
The reason for this is really quite simple.
When a string is bent, the entire trem "gives" a little from the added tension of bending the string. As you release the bend, the trem resettles into its place and redistributes tension most evenly among the 5 unbent strings. Since the system isn't entirely friction-less, The bent string is a little "late to the party" so a tiny bit of its tension is redistributed among the 5 others as it falls into balance. That is why diving, then letting them all fall into place at the same time is the fix
For anyone saying it is friction at the nut, yes....that happens. But it isnt what we are talking about here because this also happens even with the locking nut on a floyd so..........
Yep that's it
stiffer and/or more springs should help.
That’s not the reason. Use a wound third and this problem won’t happen. It’s the low tension of the plain third that causes the problem. Remember guitars were never meant to have plain thirds. I’ve got a PRS tuned to C# standard with a wound third, and there are no tuning problems on big bends of the plain top two strings, or the third, but you can’t really do those kinds of bends with a wound third...so it’s more or less a solution that no one really wants. At standard tuning the third has the least amount of tension on it compared to all the other strings, it’s just not enough to keep the system stable.
@@5urg3x Exactly right, Paul and Dusty from between the buried and me run wound thirds for this exact reason.
CHIBIX ULTRA Yeah that’s why I started doing it as well, copying Paul Waggoner.
I always thought it was a situation I only had on my guitars with trems, and now I see it is just a reality of floating trems.
You have no idea how much you just helped my OCD about tuning on my floating trem guitars.
Agreed
Yuuuuuuup
Teflon based bicycle lubricant. Enjoy.
@@chrisluzecki8357 I keep seeing your suggestion over and over, but nobody got it🤣
Same
We should call it The Darren Braun Effect.
Darrell, do you happen to have a twin brother (Darren) that's causing all these trem issues?? LOL! Seriously, all my guitars that I have with trems have the same flaw, so I rarely play them anymore and stick with my hardtail guitars. I also have tuning stability issues with my Casino with the trapeze tailpiece. Keep up the great work and Happy New Year!
Now that 'is' funny !!!
The Braun effect....I dig it. 👍
Isn't his name Darrell?
Teflon based bicycle lubricant. Enjoy.
Despite not having an answer, this was one of the most enlightening guitar videos I've ever watched! Thanks Darrell!
and there ya go, yep
I always thought using the bar to put the guitar back in tune was a feature.
a little alcohol makes every guitar play perfectly in tune and triples your speed and agility
@@mikkosutube
Hell
Sometimes even quadruple!
I also use my whammy bar as a tuning mechanism . A very good guitar player thought me to turn it , and lightly given it a wiggle ... It makes the guitar tune itself , to itself . I was lucky to have played on meny stage settings . I would tune quickly between songs .
MIND BLOWN!
Hey Robert!
What blows my mind even more is that I was SURE everyone already knew that and got on with it (I couldn't so I blocked the trem-bridge on my strat and only bought non trem guitars after).
@@gearsofsounds I see a lot of these guys like Robert Baker using these trems and I have to say I am very much impressed with their skills, and a tad envious lol. But for me I don't use a jiggle stick enough to make it an issue. 3 of my guitars came with one and I rarely use them. I more play classic rock and well they didn't really use those fancy things that much. Back in those days you were too drunk or high to have to deal with working another moving part on your guitar lol. I remember in the 80's Ace Frehley started using a Les Paul with a whammy bar on it, oh did he catch a lot of grief!! Ace has killer vibrato action as well as bends and to not use those but instead a whammy bar was sacreligious to his fans lol.
Teflon based bicycle lubricant. Enjoy.
Darrell - I think I found the solution:
Tremolo intonation problems seem to be most common on the low E and G strings, as the "break
angle" at the saddle is the most acute. This happens because those saddles are the furthest back due to compensating for intonation. And that causes the most friction on different parts of the Tremolo unit.
I found the exact spot that was causing my 3rd string to go flat when doing an upward bend. Under the saddle, there is a hole in the tremolo mounting plate that the string comes through. On my tremolo (Super-V Bladerunner) the string exits that hole at a very sharp angle, and then goes over the saddle. The sharp angle that the string makes going out of the hole was the problem. Using a fine grain rat-tail file, I rounded the front edge of the hole and put about a 45 degree angle into it. I only filed about 1 mm off of the front edge of the hole, and made sure it was nice and smooth. Now I can deep dive (1 octave down on the 6th string) and pull up on the tremolo (a minor 3rd up) then release the tremolo bar, and my strings return back perfectly in tune. It's amazing how well it worked, when I finally figured out where the problem was. It sure is fun not having to worry about intonation problems any more no matter how wild I go using the tremolo bar. Hope this helps others that have this very common problem.
There may be an easy way to test if the solution above might work for you. Get a small diameter insulated wire. Remove the wire from the insulation without damaging the insulation. You'll probably need about a 1-inch length. Thread your G string through the the insulation, then position the insulation over the sharp bend that comes through the hole in the base of the Tremolo. Tune up the string, and test it. If the string stays in tune when bending, that that friction point is probably
the culprit.
There's a small "flaw" to that logic.
He mentions his Sophia trem suffers from the same issue.
That one is top loaded, thus there is no sharp angle on any string. Its minimal, something like 5º if even that much.
Also, the block has adjustable stabilizers that force the trem retain zero.
So no, sharp angles are not the issue.
The one one trem i thought could beat the flaw is that one, and yet, it does not.
@@00Resev I only have personal experience with a 1982 reissue Strat bridge, and the Bladerunner Super-V Tremolo. I've chased the intonation problem for years. The solution that I posted about is the only one that I've found that worked for me. I just wanted to report that, in case someone has a tremolo with a similar design. As always YMMV, particularly with different designs. Thanks for posting your comments. This intonation problem has been a difficult one to solve.
@@picksalot1
Sure thing, mate.
Sharing is caring.
Stay safe.
The best solution is using the damned whammy bar instead of doing the big bends, that's what it is for, pull the bar instead of bending, if you keep moving it, it will come back to "zero"
@Musica Fidelitas I just came across a few of CZcams videos demonstrating a Wilkinson Tremolo with "Locking Saddles" that appears to get rid of the tuning instability on the bridge side of the equation. Just do a search for: "The ULTIMATE SADDLES? • Wilkinson WLS-130 Locking Saddles" or "WHAT'S UP WITH THAT BRIDGE ON YOUR BLUE SUHR? Pete Thorn/Suhr/Wilkinson" and "A locking Wilkinson Trem? A chat with Trevor Wilkinson."
I thought i was going crazy with this as i stretch strings ALOT. Thank you for giving me the smallest bit of my sanity back, Darrel
I’ve experienced this flaw but didn’t die so it isn’t a fatal flaw.
Phrasing!!! 😂
I spat my coffee here laughing. Hahahahah 😂😂
fa·tal
/ˈfādl/
adjective
leading to failure or disaster.
"there were three fatal flaws in the strategy"
synonyms: disastrous, devastating, ruinous, catastrophic, calamitous, dire !!!FATALITLOL!!!
Living in the GOOGLE age now. No points for being Igno-Rant AND Arrogant. You got Siri, Cortana and Alexa on standby to research Yer little snarky swipes and make you look like an educated man.
@@peterwelsh1932 R/whoosh
That riff is going to forever give me anxieties. 😂
It sounds like an "Era" riff. dont ask me which song or album..
Lol
I may have a surprise for you Darrell. Im a pedal steel player and have experienced the same problem you are talking about every time I pressed a pedal to raise or lower my 5th string. I searched for years trying to correct this problem. After the pedal throw this string would constantly come back our of tune. Finally I came across a solution given to me by George Jones pedal steel player. My 5th string was a solid 22 gauge that caused the problem . I changed the string to a 22 wound and bingo no more out of tune string after the pedal throw. It has something to do with string hysteresis. Who cares the problem is fixed. I would bet a Coke that this is the same problem your talking about.
They make wound g strings?
yes, my local bar has some@@sehr1515
Yes. That's what they use on a Baritone guitar to overcome tuning stability @@sehr1515
Old video I know, but the hipshot trem setter and the modem equivalents (I know there is a magnetic one now from a couple companies) was partially designed for this problem (and to return to zero when using the bar)--keeps the bridge from moving with bends, returns the bridge to zero with the bar, and makes alt timing a lot easier without having to retune all the strings SO MANY TIMES. I have one in a strat with the vintage 6 screw and it seems to do all these functions pretty well. Plus they were stock in some of the old plus series (that also had the roller nut stock)
Now this one has been bugging me for awhile!!
Enjoy :)
Darrell, try using 10-52 gauge strings. It helped solve all my tuning issues on floating trems. (Except on Floyds, never seen that happen on a floyd before.)
That was new for me! I blocked the trem on my strat. What about Bigsby trems? Maybe a show on those and how to maintain them? Thanks and👍!
Have you tried the Trem King? The have another system of how it works. You might consider try that one out. Thanks for another great video.
Leave it to Ibanez to solve this problem! The innovators in trem design, IMHO. research the Ibanez ZPS or "Zero Point System". It has been around for a few years. I have one on my 2012 model Prestige RG 3570. It does add a little more stiffness to the trem but it works!
interesting timing DB. this topic is being discussed at length on the Gretsch-talk forum right now. Apparently, the Flaw isn't limited to thru-body trem systems alone. Bigsby systems do it too. Do you have this issue with your thinline Tele or Gretsch guitars?
Never knew that this problem was across all these trem types, great video!
Thanks, Darrell. Your counsel in your videos has blessed many guitarists: myself included. As for me, I'll never be sufficiently skilled to match the Greats, whether of Julian Bream, Joe Pass, Johnny Smith, or their contemporaries. But I hang on to your videos to help my creative heart to have some quiet fun in my life. No money made, but always a smile every day.
well said
lol, i just tried what you did, and got the same results...all except for my 1 guitar equiped with a Kahler trem, never flatted the G.
I wish Kahlers weren't that expensive
and people hate kahler trems. they feel better, adjust better etc.
@@thought1212 because they used to suck ass. the new kahler trems seem to be greatly improved
Which model Kahler trem do you own??
Try a Supervee Mag-lock. It helps keep the bridge from rising when finger bending, yet allows full floating trem action. I have one on my Mexican Standard, and I really like it. Steve from Boston did a great albeit long 2 part review of it, well worth checking out.
i used to have a similar system by hipshot, it prevents you to do the cricket trick so... 😔
Andrea Lombardini The Maglock is not the same as the Hipshot, I can still do the cricket thing. 😉
ildur It lets you bend up, or down, and if you practice, you can get it to act like a full floating trem would.
Teflon based bicycle lubricant. Enjoy.
This is the famous Shrödinger's Trem problem. When taken in isolation, strings have a clear "in tune"/"not in tune" state but when coupled together through a floating bridge the system they build moves between a "balanced" / "imbalanced" state which is based on a complex, quantised set of string states. The more strings there are, the more combinations there can be of "not in tune" strings leading to a "balanced" bridge and an observer cannot know these states without playing them, which in turn affects them, making exact knowledge an impossibility. There is a important theory about quantum tuning which I shall not expose here. At least we know we have no dead cats in these guitars.
Thanks to the odds.. THIS Cat is still Alive! it almost got me though.👀🙈😼
Bravo!
No dead cats in these guitars. However, wasn't that sign on the headstock something in the vein of Ratocaster? Or was i blinded by the camera light that made a blur/flash just at the beginning of that word?
Nice
Leo wins the internet today! Awesome observation!
Darrel, I think Trev Wilkinson solved this fatal FLAW with his Gotoh's VSVG and the Sung Il's WV6/WVP6/WVP trem systems. It has staggered holes in the block to make the plain G has the same drop angle as the high E string. He explained it quite well in the StewMac interview video. It would be interesting if you would revisit this issue with the Wilkinson trems.
Can i see the stewmac review?
I'm a rookie but i got tired of repetitive tuning and temporarily converted mine into a hardtail. Now it stays in tune and I'm very happy with it!
Interesting and educational as always, Darrell. I watch a fair amount of guitar videos on YT, but this is the only guitar channel I subscribe to.
Thanks Leaman!
So glad to have you as a subscriber :)
Leaman Crews Make those youtubers work for that subscription 😂.
This is the best Darrell Braun channel on CZcams!
Lando, that’s true. All the other Darrell Brauns can’t play guitar for crap!
They put a man on the moon, but can’t keep a trem in tune. Incredible. Drives me nuts!
We need NASA's help!!!
lol!!!
The guys at NASA were probably drummers and bass players.
Teflon based bicycle lubricant. Enjoy.
Regarding Tuning Instability associated with Tremolo Units, EVH used to wind the strings up on the Tuner Post instead of down to improve tuning stability, as he wanted to reduce the break angle behind the nut. On my Strat, the low E and G string tended to return sharp after deep dives. Winding just those 2 string up the Tuner Posts has reduced the problem substantially. Once the strings are properly stretched, my Tremolo now stays almost perfectly in tune even with repeated deep dives.
Darrel, thanks for this marvelous video!
I would like to give you two hints, please verify them.
First, I have set up my standard Fender 6-point vibrato floating. Normally, I tune the plain strings in a way that I repeatedly bend and re-tune them until they stay in tune. Then playing my Strat, using the whammy only UPWARDS (i.e., toward the flush position) but NEVER downwards, none of the strings that have been bent will be released (but even more strained instead), therefore they remain tense all the time, causing minimal de-tuning (if any). I think Hank Marvin of the Shadows employed this method...
Second, the physical principle of hysteresis describes exactly your observation of that "flaw": pull a spring by hanging a weight on it and remove the weight thereafter, the spring will NOT assume its original size but remains somewhat longer, this phenomenon is called hysteresis. The spring would assume its original length only after pressing it together to a certain extent, i.e. after a movement in the opposite direction. I can also observe the flaw (i.e. de-tuning) if I set up my vibrato "decked" (since the same physical rule of hysteresis applies here, too). To make matters worse, a floating vibrato is a complicated system, containing not only one "spring" (the string itself) but also the springs of the metal block, all having their own hysteresis.
Interesting experiment. I was not aware that occurred. At least it is consistent. I guess that is good.. Thanks Darrell. As usual another great video.
Thanks for this Darell! This also bugs me for quite a time. Having the same issue on my Tele with bigsby b5 trem system copy and Strat with classic 6 screws trem system in floating setting. That's also what I do to fix the tuning issue after a huge bend haha. Now I know I'm not alone 😁👍
Thank you for sharing this information! I’ve been playing for 20+ years and I didn’t know about this flaw. I just thought I had to retune when I would do a lot of bends. I have a trem bar on my Strat, and I have a new assignment for myself now.
Love your vids, Darrell! Thanks for all the well-presented and useful info. For your problem, use a Black Box style stabilizer and increase the trem spring tension. That way you aren't at the mercy of balancing the spring/string tension to keep your bridge level. You can then favor the spring tension so it holds the block firmly against the stabilizer (which has its own tension adjustment). The bridge stays in a "blocked" position whenever it's at rest, even with finger bends. Tremsetter won't do it. Mag-loc will change the feel as it locks/unlocks. Hope this helps!
Just tried it on my Godin Velocity , same thing G string detunes , hit the trem and back in tune. Don't really use the trem a lot so never really noticed good vid Darrell
I have some thoughts on this after watching this and have been working on a tremolo design as a personal project while studying mechanical engineering and will most definitely try to tackle this problem with my project now. My current design may actually remedy it completely as it doesnt pivot the way modern trems do. I will absolutely let you know if and when I can afford to build a working model of my design.
so?
yeah, SO? any luck my dude?
Did you try a Kahler?
just put a servo and a computer in there to push it back to straight
OK it has been 3 year now.. Did you fix it or what?
I have a 2010 Mexican Strat. Everything is stock except the pick guard. I floated the trem after watching your how-to video. Added the spring in the hole the arm screws into. After watching this video, I tried it out. It came back into perfect tune every time. I thought I must've been doing something wrong, so I really abused it. It still came back in tune.
I'm not at home now to check it out, but probably the thing called Goldo Backbox helps. It looks like a stopper, but it has an adjustable spring. This way you can still push and pull floating trem, but it kinda helps it to be in its default state.
2:04 You mean that wasn't just my cheap Ibanez guitar??? I put that guitar away thinking it was just trash, Sorry Darrell I wanna keep watching but I gotta go dig my old baby out. IBANEZ I'M COMING FOR YOU OL' FREIND I DIDN'T FORGET ABOUT YOU I'M SO SORRY!!! 😥
lol
If it is a very gross change in tunning, it may be a double zero point, it happened to an old Ibanez with edge III trem I bought once. Now I have one with Edge Zero trem and this effect happens only with bends and it's very subtle.
Does it make a good guitar now? Lmao
Amazing observation, including how it resolves itself. This leads me to believe tha, if Darrell Braun can't overcome it, it can't be overcome.
It's not that hard, the springs aren't properly adjusted.
Dear Darrell,
Thank you for bringing this topic up. It bugs me to the point I almost stopped using my Strat (I observed this with blocked tremolo too). My thoughts (which can be wrong):
IMO there are 3 possible reasons for G string going flat:
1 - NUT: Friction between the string and the nut. When string bent, it moves inside the nut slot towards saddle, but does not return back after bend released, and tension reduced.
2 - SADDLE: Friction between the string and the saddle. Similar to above, string moves on the saddle towards the nut but does not return.
3 - TREMOLO: Position of tremolo changed after the bend, and it only returns back after diving the tremolo.
I excluded reasons like old/dirty strings or slack on machine heads as string will not return after diving the tremolo.
One can make simple experiments to eliminate options above.
I don't think it's a nut (1). One can verify it by pushing the strings behind the nut (between the nut and the machine head). This will cause the string move backwards through the slot and should make it return to original tuning (or even make it sharp). Also your guitar with locking nut confirms it.
I don't think it's (3) either. It can be eliminated by checking the tuning of other strings after the bend. If other the strings go flat too - then it's tremolo moved. Otherwise - tremolo returns to original position
Finally moving the string on the saddle (2) which is the hardest to eliminate. Can we mark the string/saddle with sharpie and see if it moved after the bend? Not sure if the movement is significant enough to see it.
Finally, thank you much for the great content, keep doing what you're doing, love the channel!
Hi Darrell! Enjoyed a few of your videos,like the '15 myths',the one on the Gretsch,and this one.
The G string seems to be the place where all the the string tension seems to settle,in 'almost' all guitars 've tried.
Maybe the Trans Trem,from Steinberger,was a solution,although complicated. Thanks for your effort.
Cool vid as usual!
If all it takes is to bring it back up with a pull, maybe just mute the strings for a second and do it before you go for the next lick. I feel like it's one of those things that are annoying at first but become second nature over time. Whatever the case, I NEED my floating trem. It's integral to how I play my strat and I am not changing it. Odd thing though.
Steve Rothery from Marillion talked about this annoying thing years ago, but the trem is such a big part of his playing style.
If you watch him live you’ll see he dives that Kahler so many times. You learn to live with it.
Thanks for this video, Darrell! Definitely makes me reconsider using a floating trem or going with a rail tail style.
Yep, happens on my PRS USA Tremonti too, even on smaller bends...great video!!
Hmm... I don't really seem to be having this problem, but I DO have a specific way of setting up my trems (mostly Floyds) which is that rather than having 3 springs which are not under much tension, I almost always have 2 springs which are under HIGH tension (i.e. claw almost screwed in fully) so the springs are in the middle of their travel, and are quite stretched when in balance and the guitar is in tune. I also oil every spring eye and hook, and put a tiny bit of oil in each string saddle. I even slightly oil the claw screws!
Very interesting Darell. That makes me wonder if a totally different kind of trem would solve this problem, ie. bigsby or jaguar/jazzmaster trem
dsus studio I was thinking about offset guitars too.
I have a jazzmaster with the USA made vibrato and it doesn't have that flaw. double checked it.
You might also factor in that the jm vibrato isn't really intended for big bends and dive bombs. But with a good setup, it'll stay in tune for anything
@@guitarbits then why don't I have a jazzmaster yet? gotta get one soon lol
Bigsby doesn't go out of tune, however it's a flavour of bend, which is not very versatile and most people don't like it.
Excellent video and info. Thanks so much for sharing your expertise.
Now that's interesting. My best guess would have to be it's something to do with the springs inside the guitar. Maybe it has to do with how bending a single string pulls the bridge forwards from one point in the middle versus the bar moving the whole bridge from the side. So a bend changes the forces that balance the trem unevenly on the string side while the bar equally changes both at the same time. Hopefully that made sense?
Try the Ibanez zero point system. Rarely goes out of tune. And on top of that drop D works like a charm
Metalltool Yes, is correct and that is because the Zero system includes a tremsetter that prevents that from happening.
Yea mate, I have the ZR system on my S series, and it's one of the nicest systems to use. The strings stay in tune for almost forever.
Use your bar for the extra bend and control pitch as you release.. watch Jeff Beck.
Even JB says he needs to give the whammy a jerk to stay in tune. I guess just give it a silent jerk after a solo 😉
?What is The Secret Van Halen got from Jeff Beck? Randy Roads asked Van Halen how he kept his slammy in tune. VH said, "oh, Jeff Beck showed me that. It's a secret; can't tell you that..." ?What's the F'N secret! is he talking about!? (And does The Secret have the Fatal Flaw anyway?... .
I think the key thing is to use your ear and the bar to control pitch. The system is dynamic and never perfect but that's part of the sound... I like to practice plugged into a tuner and use the bar to get as close to pitch as possible. Also make sure all mechanical points are lubbed with 3-in-1 oil, PRS recommends it on their setup guide and it helps alot. I don't lube the nut though.. I feel it effects tone and string life. Use your ears above all though and keep the bar handy to control everything. It is an art to use a whammy musically and I feel naked without one lol..
That's funny. Solution : play like Jeff Beck. Having trouble? Oh well. Eddie VH lied a lot early on to develop a mystique and divert people away from figuring out the technical stuff behind his sound. I wouldn't take his "secret" too seriously.
@@peterwelsh1932The secret is having a full time guitar tech to constantly setup your guitar. A good setup is all you need. A double locking Floyd with a proper setup will stay in tune for months.
Now that you mention it, it is crazy rare for me to break strings now, I never actually thought about that, and I'm surprised when I do break one.
this vid was a joy to watch, production and flow was top notch.
you need more trem springs! Most players use just 2 or 3 springs and some put them in at an angle. Putting them in at an angle creates uneven tension across the block. For a floating trem to work properly, you need at least four springs of even tension and parellel and then have your trem set up properly. Additionally, make sure you have a set of springs with an equal tension. Most people don't realize that trem springs have different tensions, so it is important to have a matched set, additionally springs do wear out and should be replaced when they do (as a set).
I wish I had the answer. I played the same game as everyone else. I came to a decision buying all these magic guitar parts on line to help keep your guitar in tune is alot of crap.
I've had them all. If I kept all the money I've spent on guitar mods I could purchase a new custom shop stratocaster or prs custom 24 ten top. Just know the guitar you have and learn what impact the nut, string tree, tuners, saddle and tremelo have on your strings. There are great videos of setups for all the name brand guitars.
I love the tone of stratocasters . I personally have never had a new custom shop stratocaster that had the nut cut correctly. Whenever I would do a whole step or half step bend on the 3,2 or1 at least three strings go out of tone about 5 cents flat with or without a floating tremelo and this is with the strings stretched and the nut,string tree and saddles lubed. Also with the neck relief checked and confirmed as .010. I've been chasing guitars for 7 years and the only guitar that did not go out of tune right out of the box was a 5 year old prs custom 24 .
Teflon based bicycle lubricant. Enjoy.
Nice vid! I started keeping my strat set up super tightened with 5 springs just to copy SRV as a teen, (I've never been a fan of diving up in pitch anyway) and it definitely solves this issue - solid as a rock. But then again, it's not floating at that point
Amazed, especially with the locking nut as well. Truly baffled. Im working on a custom strat ting for my daughter, she’s wanting zero fret style nut and a hardtail bridge. Out of curiosity I’ll do the zero fret first with the standard factory floating trem bridge. Might even let you guys know if it works. 🤓
Did you try blowing into the cartridge?
I've been chasing this issue on every floating trem equipped guitar I've owned for over 30 years. I've tried all of the things mentioned here to mitigate it with varying levels of success but nothing has cured it 100%. I've just grown accustomed to automatically hitting the trem arm after playing passages with big bends. It's no longer a conscious act... just autopilot. Funniest thing, is that the guitar I purposely built to escape this issue suffers from it the most. A Strat with a Wilkinson two-point, roller nut, roller string trees, and locking tuners. It's a MONSTER player, but G goes horribly flat after big bends. Go figure.
Me too.
I've found that simply keeping on playing....in several seconds, if the nut is lubbed with chapstick or graphite, it will come back to pitch.
The best non-locking setup I've had was a MM JP6.
It had a nut with a high percentage of graphite.
No problems returning to pitch, but the nut material was soft and wore the slots too low pretty quickly.
I wanted to buy another, but they won't sell them individually.....go figure
@Question Everything please elaborate on properly cutting a nut slot on a roller nut. Or, explain how it's still a nut slot issue . Reading is fundamental.
Teflon based bicycle lubricant. Enjoy.
Have you tried using wound 3rd string?
my jackson soloist professional xl have that problem also.. and thats a original schaller floyd rose with locking nuts and saddles..
that problem is actully the main reason i started play on stop tail guitars... still have the jackson tho.. just rarlely play it...
***sry for grammar, english my 2nd langague
Thanks a lot. Your video prevented me from spending a lot more money on different tremolos to try and solve that... From now on I'll stick to double locking or hardtail.
Beat the flaw...play bass
Les Claypool has a bass with a Kahler bass trem.
Or a guitar without a floating trem
deck em all!
Boooooo! 😉😁
Bass player here, just get engaged to a deaf girl like I did. She can feel the bass more than the guitars anyways.
One thing you might try, supervee mag lok?
This was absolutely brilliantly demonstrated.
I am part of several guitar groups on FB. Folks often ask why G keeps going out of tune and how they can fix it. I always post this video link. Good job.
Id like to see someone do this test on an Ernie Ball Music Mann JP15 or something, I hear the trems on the EBMM are next level awesome.
Truth! I played on a MM for many years as my exclusive guitar. Super stable trems 👍
@@DarrellBraunGuitar so the bends dont do anything bad?
Thats why im a hardtail guy now....
Use a tremol-no
Triple S Me too. They’re more trouble than they are worth.
MattyBEightyThree what trouble?
I'm so glad I went to a hardtail
Part of me is saying “yeah, I hate trems, long live my hardtail Strat.” The other part wishes he was Jeff Beck.
You have nicely demonstrated a form of hysteresis due to stiction and how to achieve correct equilibrium through application of dither. The problem can be mitigated by lubrication of all moving surfaces in contact: nut, saddles, fulcrum and spring contact points. Personally I lock down the tremelo (which really should be called a vibrato btw) because they suck out the tone.
Love this ol intro! So Crafty! Look.. this flaw l believe is remedied with adding another spring on the trem. We want it easy, to sway effortlessly with the slightest touch, but if you want the bridge to return to zero you need more tension to do so, obviously your guitars do not have enough spring tension to do so.. give it a try.. l bet you will get the result you are looking for but at the expense of having to use a lil muscle..
Saw a video with Guthrie Govan playing on stage with Hans Zimmer . He broke a string, the guitar went completely out of tune, so he just picked up a slide and completely improvised a solo until his tech could get him the spare guitar.
Quick thinking! Always have a slide at hand just in case. Or a zippo lighter. Or a battery. Or a bottle. I always do the latter anyway ;-)
GG is literally the master of guitar improvisation
Hey, NO FLAW HERE at my guitar!
Ibanez rg320dxfm (made in indonesia), has edge 3 floyd style bridge. Can post a vid if you'd like.
Everything on the guitar is stock, the locking nut, the springs, all of the hardware, everything.
My FR special I tried on my LTD. No issue here either.
Try pulling up and gently release....
...it will probably be sharp..
All locking trems do this except the original FR.
@@shredhed572 I tried my best here to return gently, still no change in tune. I can upload a short video on my account if you wish
I appreciate your wealth of guitar knowledge. Thanx for sharing.
Darrell, great video! I've been looking for some content on this issue - it's actually hard to find because the key words for the problem return videos/forums on strings going out of tune while bending (which isn't the problem). We're talking about the strings out of tune after a bend is complete.
Anyhow - what's interesting is the other strings (the non-flat one) go sharp in tune when this issue happens.
My assumption is the bent string is the other strings are the main problem - they are pulled sharp as you release tension back down during the bend, since they aren't being bent. Another thing to consider, is why do some strings have this problem more than others?
There is a video on youtube about "tremelo training" but it doesn't seem to be a full solution - only a work around that has its own limitations.
As I posted earlier - there's a video of David Gilmour doing huge bends and returning back in tune without needing to use the trem. Also as we know Yngwie Malmsteen was heavy with bends and there are clips of him not having to use the trem to go back in tune. I can't mention Jimi Hendrix because he was nutorious for playing out of tune and rarely played standard chords that would expose the tuning issue.
IF you have a solution - we are all here waiting to hear about it!
The springs aren't properly adjusted.
could you link to a video with Yngwie doing this?
I'm guessing the springs aren't loaded enough to pull the bridge back when it's ever so slightly moved out of balance, until you wiggle the bar. Have you tried greasing up any contact points to reduce friction?
Scott Fossil I agree. Put stiffer springs in the back to return it back to the correct position. Like on a 4X4 suspension where you have variable rate coil springs (they’re thicker/stiffer on one end) that start off stiff but lessen as it gets compressed. In this case they need to be the opposite because we are stretching not compressing the springs. So a variable rate extension spring that holds tight to begin with but is easily overcome with the term bar and also to return back to neutral completely should solve the problem. Just my 2 cents.
My double locking Ibanez trem on my rg is greased at the knife edges, and it passed this test
The problem is that even the tiniest (and I mean tiniest) difference in the return position throws you noticeably out of tune.
Get a real double locking trem. An Ibanez with an edge or lo-pro edge should tackle this with ease. If you have a double locking trem that does this, something is wrong. Most likely the locking pads are still letting the string slip through.
I'd also challenge that a lot of fixed bridge guitars will have a similar flaw.
@@tinstarforge2800 spring tension is about balance. Not just more.
The tremsetter was designed to address the "return-to-zero" problem.
I find locking tuners help and with the vintage 6 screw trems, little springs around the 2 outer screws under the trem helps with pivoting.
I didn't knew there were so many systems for tremolo use. Awesome!!
Ive had this happen on a few guitars. It wasn’t the tremolo for mine... was the nut. Remedied by slightly filing the nut slots. They were catching when I’d bend the G and B strings. Doesn’t happen at all now. I’ve never had this happen on a Floyd. Interesting and puzzling that’s happening on all those different guitars? I’ll ask a few of my Luthier friends and get back to you.
I have known exactly why since the 80’s.
You will find if you tune the g to a b the issue goes away of course non playable. We have a new trem that locks the string as it leaves the saddle. It doesn’t do this.
Hi John!
I'd love to review one for the channel if they are ready for production :)
I think a lot of my viewers would be very interested to see it in action!
You have Suhr's attention, that can't be a bad thing.
Hey! It's That Guy! -talking to The Guy here! woah... Hey! -What about the Hipshot Tremsetter? Is that supposed to address this issue. Anywho: yeah, "New Suhr Trem" video would be cool. I just got an Yngwie scalloped neck and need to build the rest of the guitar. First question: What kind of Tremolo? Ideally something that looks good (jazzmaster/ Bigsby/ Jigzby?) but plays like my Parker Fly?
Would you say you'd be "devastated" if you had to buy a Suhr guitar? 😜
even if you lock the string as it leaves the saddle, it will do this. the only system that doesn't do it while staying functional is trem king.
Just found this vid yesterday. Very, very useful! I'm definitely a hardtail guy but now I have even more reason to avoid trem systems. :)
I never knew this, thanks for the information I will definitely check it out on my guitar.
I've always decked my trems. Now I know why I did. lol :)
Lando27Music Me too. Can get plenty of vibrato in the hands. Love to bend strings and nobody dive bombs anymore. The eighties are long over. My next axe is definitely gonna be a Jr. Single p-90 and a wrap around bridge. No muss, no fuss, rock machine
That's what I did on my strat too. Never needed the tremolo, but still get the tone of the bridge vibrating the springs.
B. Robertson if you put some foam like that of hard cased camera cases that should help with the vibration of the springs
@@sneifert1968 "nobody dive bombs anymore" 😂 sure. totally.
@@sasson8282 amazingly, some people actually like that sound.
There is even bigger of a flaw-while you're bending, even slightly, all other strings go out of tune temporarily. If you have to hit a note (or leave it resonating) while bending another one, you're out of luck on a floating trem system.
Tremmory or themsetter is the answer
Kiko from Megadeth says you just have to hold the bridge while bending
Heavier springs or more springs or screw the claw further in
Kiko loureiro has a solution for that, just push the bridge a little while bending
That’s not true though. You just have to bend the strings to different degrees to get the same results but it is possible.
Weird. I haven’t had a guitar with a Floyd since the early 90’s but it never exhibited this problem, which is what sold me on the Floyd. My Suhr Pete Thorn model is the first non Floyd guitar to have “Floyd stability”. Must be the locking tuners and locking Wilkinson saddles! ;)
I completley agree with everything youve said coming from someone who plays strictly on floating trems. Even my 7 string has a floyd only guitar that doesnt do this is the zpse edge zero II with the stop bar(also helps with the double stop bend issue on floating trems) in my own experience. I have this trem on my ibanez. Ironically i only ever break a string when tuning and always at the bridge never the nut or tuners
Darrell Braun's Fatal Law of Floating Trems?
Hopefully no one said this already...
When you bend, because the trem is floating, the trem moves ever so slightly with the bend. There is not enough resistance to
pull the trem that minuscule turn back in order to keep tune. This is why it is slightly flat. When you then use the trem the resistance is increased and it goes back to the correct, in tune, spot. FRICTION is the enemy.
but why does this keep happening on a locked trem system where the string can't actually move any more, thus create friction ?
friction in the trem pivot
Great answer!
In floyd rose style locking trems, they usually put locking studs, so the trem studs dont move
@@joestevenson5568
This!!!!
I may have found a solution : the majority of floating trems operate on knife edges that present either a straight vertical edge or sharp angular cuts that come in contact with the screws or posts. My brother's floyd rose special doesn't have that issue as a result of him sanding and smoothing out his knife edges which had corroded a bit. I tried doing the same on my wilkinson trem (tedious work, as it's a 6-screw) and boom that G strings stays in tune even after serious bends !
Try a product called the trem setter! I think I read about it once it's a device you mount on the spring cavity and it basically pulls the trem back into perfect position after ever time you use the trem !
Project Super Strat cannot have a flaw! Say it isn't so or I won't eat for a week! (you can always crank up the distortion and no one will even notice). ;)
How to beat the flaw? Got me? The only thing I've come up with so far is to stay away from floating trems.
I'm gonna try to beat it with a wound G string
@@faustohernandez3434 if you need a floating tremolo, you most likely play music which will require licks that cannot be played with a wound g-string
Brilliant video. Thanks!!
All this while I assumed that I had a bad trem system.. Now it feels awesome to know that I am not alone 😂 It's universal! Great video thanks!
I know how you can fix that problem.
Stop playing that lick. ;)
Exactly, slide up a fret then do a full bend.
Lol
This is how technology progresses. The engineer challange is on the table now.
They already made teen stabilizer like tremorry,hipshot and supervee
I just got used to wiggling the bar often to stay in tune. It’s become part of my technique. I usually wiggle it on a rest so I don’t have to have trem bends throughout the piece.
I got around that by making the bridge on my SE flush against the body and threw on some thicker strings and locking tuners. I rarely go off tune with that guitar now unless the weather is being weird.
Great video as always! Have you ever checked out Stetsbar trem systems? Just got one and I'm installing it on my project tele! You should check them out!
I had one for Strat briefly and it was no better than a cheap fender 6 screw. It's been a few year's but if I remember correctly the main issue had to do with how it clamped to the Strat. The Tele one probably works better since it is mounted on a plate that is screwed to the body.
I had a Stetsbar ,it was terrible ,zero sustain past the 10th fret .Total junk . I Like Kahlers with floyd rose locking system ,or with Fender roller nut with locking tuners ,still get a bit of the G string tune out on bends ,but just tap the bar and it's back in,get used to it really ,to be honest the Kahlers dont go out of tune much at all .
I have a Stetsbar on a Tele Deluxe and it works great. Tone is wonderful and no sustain issues. Put one on a Gibson SG and lost sustain bigtime up high around the 12th fret.
Couple of things:
1. Avoid tremolo systems with loose connections to the body or floating saddles. In my opinion, cheap Wilkinson style trems are more trouble than they are worth.
2. Make sure the spring tension is set up so your trem is exactly parallel to the body of the guitar. If it's sitting to high or too low, it can cause the issue in this video.
3. Make sure you're using enough springs to allow the bridge to sit firm when it's not being used. I like to use at least 3 for 10 gauge string. If you have to screw the trem claw all the way into the back of the trem cavity to get your trem to sit level, you should add a spring.
4. Jokes aside, make sure you keep you nut lubricated. If it's a graphite nut, the pencil trick works great. This eliminates friction at the nut.
5. Avoid trem-equipped guitars where the strings are not inline from the nut post to the headstock. For example, Gibson-style headstocks will caused a ton of string slippage at the nut; especially if you play with a bunch of bending or extreme bending.
6. Make sure you properly stretch your strings before you set your intonation after each re-string. This is important on any guitar, but especially important for floating trem guitars.
7. For trem systems that use blocks to press against the string (like a Floyd Rose or variant), make sure the blocks aren't cracked.
8. For knife edge trems, make sure the edges on the trem posts haven't worn down. This will inevitably happen after you've played a bunch and affect the guitar's ability to return to pitch after using the trem.
Hey ! Just read your comment after I posted mine: seems we agree on most points :) Additionally, I just use stronger wound strings than classic sets, found out it gives additional stability to the system.
@@frantisca Hi! I didn't see your original comment, but I suppose great minds think alike. :) Great additional tip. I like using 10 gauge Elixir Opti-Web or D'Addario NYXL strings on my floating tremolo guitars.
@@frantisca : I agree about the heavier strings improving stability. My American HSS Deluxe strat came with 9s and when I changed to 10s it seemed to help.
You can fix this with a little petroleum jelly on the tremolo posts where the edge contacts. I put this on my Ibanez Edge 3 about 10 years ago and it has basically always returned to pitch since. Done the same with Floyd Rose since. So I think that the biggest flaw is that all the other strings drop in pitch when you bend a string which makes unison bends sound bad. I actually pull up on the trem arm a bit to compensate.
Amazing information on trems!!! thank you 🙏