NO FLANGE? How does a 4-6-0 with a BLIND set interact with the track?
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
- In this video, we take a look at how Rio Grande Southern #20 at the @crrm interacts with the track, one wheelset at a time. 20 is a neat comparison to our previous video, because she's got a blind #2 wheelset! Let's check it out.
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Steam engines made with Lego use blind drivers for the same reason as standard Lego curved track has a very tight radius. So it’s neat to see this in the real world.
I made Baldwin Disc Drivers on a 3D printer and looked to this for some inspiration. I should start offering them around next week or so
this just goes to show you how smart the people who designed and built these wonderful machines were.
Think of what they could do today with autocad and cnc machining. This is awesome videography. I love the section with the stephanson valve gear in motion.
im not trying to be sexist but are they sure that don't need men? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Or how smart people are in general.
was
This was some of the most hackiest engineering I have ever seen, I would not call it smart
It'll blow a lot more of people minds when they realize that the taper does most of the work of keeping the train "centered" on the rails and turns the train
It's really astonishing how much _movement_ there is in all that tonnage... quite a fine balance.
I really like these Graphics you used in this video, it added a neat touch to this video
Watching these locomotives run around the Museums is really fun, particularly seeing all the contributing parts work to make these mechanical steam powered beasts do the thing they were built to do so long ago is really cool!
Genuinely it’s amazing how these big things slide along the rails, without the flange (which I always assumed was a part of it) you see how the pressure and force are used. It’s like watching a printing press drive through the mountains, only it’s a deck of cards they are printing. Applause.
the flange on the other wheels help to maintain the position of that wheel with no flanges..
@@w9x7cv3vg6 lol and as someone who only knows trains in the way that be described as ‘choo choo! I love it!’ , I can’t believe how simple a tech can work. Must be a reason it was so popular 🧐
I love getting to see these locomotives from angles that were not previously filmed on other channels as far as I know. It's what makes your channel stand out from the rest. You also can't replace all the shenanigans with the other guys from the museum.
This is awesome to see! I bet the men who engineered these trains could only dream of seeing them work this clearly
I'm sure they have, usually those guys are supposed to validate it and what not
I do know that the flangless wheels help locomotives go around the corner
But it's always nice hearing you talking about it
That underframe crank action is hypnotic. 🍺🍻
Wow this channel has come along way Mark. I remember the first video of yours I ever watched was the original ES&D ep. 2 at premiere. Thank you for the hours of entertainment.
You've been here since the early days! Cheers mate.
You should do a camera angle on 42 and 346 that focuses just on the Stephenson valve gear. Watching the eccentrics in action is the coolest part of this video imo.
I need to do more valve gear stuff. Glad you enjoyed.
@@Hyce777 I’ve got some pictures of Southern 630’s Southern Valve Gear if you’re interested. The valve gear is my favorite part of a steam locomotive’s running gear.
I think a lot of people who don’t pay attention to railway architecture and design don’t realize that there is more than what visible to outside, especially when it comes to value gear and wheel alignments. Thanks for showing us more in depth 🙏
Edit: I was confused about blind drivers when I first heard about them on the BR 9Fs 2-10-0s
I worked on a riding scale railroad and we built our own switches. You really learn the physics when you run wheelsets through switches and frogs as you are building.
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The graphics upgrade with your channel is super super cool. I hope you keep the MSPaint for the 101s, but for more cleaned-up videos like this, it is awesome.
Edit: That said, I haven't seen you do a 101 with the new editing. Maybe I don't know I want it.
I edited the video with the MS paint basically and Nick came back over top with the real graphics. It was awesome. Lol
@@Hyce777 I have noticed Nick's credit coinciding with a polished graphics, it took me a minute to recognize the name. The first time I heard you was on his podcast talking about Railroads Online. Appreciate the content over the last year plus, I've enjoyed watching you grow from a musician who loves and plays with trains to ..... well, a musician who loves and plays with cooler trains. I think you love and appreciation for the things you do are the secret sauce that makes you content so enjoyable.
@@Javious_Rex cheers Jay! I am very fortunate that Nick has wanted to partner up for these videos. We'll be doing a more formal intro pretty soon, but it's honestly wonderful getting to work with him. Thanks for the kind words.
Absolutely bloody fascinating. I once thought that there was something wrong with me for being interested in how the slippy dippy iron wheels ran on raised iron tracks, but seeing these videos I now know that I'm not the only one who has wondered how the wheels stayed on the tracks.
Many thanks for your time in filming these beautiful beasts so that people like me can be like little boys once more.
The physics is the same as that of a common belt sander. The sanders have rollers at each end that are crowned (larger diameter towards the center). It may be counterintuitive to some, but this is what causes the belt to stay centered. If the belt gets off center, the nature of the roller shape causes the belt to self-center. The same occurs with crowned pulleys and flat belts used in older machinery. For the regular flanged railroad wheels, the treads are tapered so that the two wheels work in tandem to produce a somewhat similar result. If the wheel set gets too off center, a larger diameter of one wheel will contact and a smaller diameter of the other wheel and this causes the wheel set to center. Theoretically, with good enough track, you wouldn't need flanges at all. And the taper of the wheel treads also helps provide a sort of "differential" effect on curves where the wheel set will shift so a larger diameter on the outer wheel and a smaller diameter on the inner wheel make contact to prevent either wheel from skidding on the rail.
The tapered design will only go so far in terms of its design on curves. On tighter curves (especially Subway train curves) the flange is a must! When you hear flange squeal, it’s because it’s doing it’s job.
@@BassotronicsTrue, of course. This is why it is commonplace on railroads to use rail lubricators on curves to minimize wear to the flanges and especially the rail. Don't no if they do it those very tight curves for you mentioned as well as things like the Chicago L (which I rode all the time and heard plenty of squealing) or for streetcar running.
@@trainliker100
Rail lubricators should be used everywhere there are tight curves but they are not that common to see. One way around that is to have a tank car as part of the train consist innovatively designed to spray lubricant every time it senses a tight curve.
Or could be just an extra tank under the locomotive to make things easier controlled by the engineer.
@@Bassotronics First, it isn't just tight curves. It can also be rather broad mainline curves. And there are determinants other than just the tightness of the curve such as train speed, train weight, whether or not it is on a grade, and even wind forces. There has been quite a bit of science over the years for devices that automatically deliver grease so as to help with the flange and rail wear yet avoid getting grease on top of the rail. I doubt very much that railroads would want to haul an extra car for the purpose since it adds non-revenue weight to the train. And they would need a lot of them and it adds another handling issue to keep them filled and switched into trains. I suppose your idea of having something on board the locomotive would be possible, but it would be another maintenance headache and probably ALL locomotives would require them. Of course, the existing flange lubricators require maintenance and refilling but I suspect the railroads long ago determined it was the cheapest approach.
@@trainliker100
Yup!
And I meant just one locomotive on the mainline with the device; not equip all of them. The grease supplied that one locomotive should be enough for other trains for the rest of the day depending on the type of rules, regulations or necessity.
Love the graphics that you added, it really helps clarify what is actually happening. Watching the eccentrics and the blind drivers is hypnotic. What a cool shot. Please keep the wonderful content coming!
It's a common design feature on model locomotives as well, whether or not the actual prototype had them. The idea being to get through the tighter radius curves typically found in train sets and smaller layouts.
A lot of newer models don't do this in effort to be more prototypical, but the tradeoff is in practicality, as they need wider curves and long smooth switches to operate properly.
Hello my fellow hairy men
And Boys
Hello good sir
@@TheRealSoviet_Onion I see no boys here just a band of men drinking strawberry milk
Can confirm am hairy
I'm sorry but I need to say this about my own comment imagine a big group of guys covered in hair standing around 491 drinking strawberry milk out of whiskey bottles labeled xxx strawberry milk it's killing me.
i initially thought the graphic of the wheel indicator was some sort of artefact, or covering up some sort of metadata imposed on the video itself......
then i realized they were changing color along with each shot, along with you saying which wheel it was, and now it feels very clever
I could watch steam locomotive driving mechanics spinning all day while learning about the locomotives in deep detail. Something satisfying and something educational. Loving these videos where we go into the wheels
Hyce....i gotta say bud. Every single video you get amaze me with how well you descibe, animate, and film the context and content. This is really fantastic stuff for train nerds. I love literally everything you do. Please never stop!
Great view of the Stephenson valve gear in action. A real push rod engine!
Loving how your content is evolving! Graphics are crisp and narration is way smoother. Gotta say my favorite part of this was getting to see that valve gear in motion!
This is so cool. Thank you! So cool to see how it prevents binding
I know nothing about trains and this is the most insane thing I learned about trains ever. Those blind sets freak me out..... Good video
I've loved steam locomotives since I was a toddler. You are living my childhood dream, thank you so much for sharing your world. I've always wondered how these beautiful pieces of engineering genius worked from the boiler right down to the wheels. Great video!
Another noteworthy locomotive that has a blind driver is Little River Railroad #110. And I believe this is a similar set up, the middle driver is blind as 110 was a logging engine in Tennessee! Awesome video!
Awesome video, the graphics (and fewer wheels perhaps?) made this much easier to follow for me than the earlier videos on the 491. And BTW if you ever visit Norway (for some reason lol) you could visit the Urskog-Høland line, it's a 750mm narrow gauge railway which has a really neat collection of Hartmann-built 2-6-2 locomotives, one of which was donated to my uni (It still works and us mechanical engineering students drive it regularly!).
I remeber reading a memoir by possibly Robert Richardson, founder of the CRRM that when #20 was running towards the end of the RGS, her suspention and springing was so worn out for all intents, she was a 4-4-0, not a 4-6-0, as her blind drivers were very seldom in contact with the track. Kelly Anderson at Strasburg, that helped oversee her 10+ year overhaul stated that #20 was the most comprehesively worn-out locomotive that he ever saw.
A lot of work to put this together; fascinating to see it in practice. Theoretically, in this example, there must be wheel slippage because the driving wheels are mechanically connected and must rotate at exactly the same rotational velocity. Rounding a curve, the leading and trailing axles would naturally shift to the outside to maintain equal surface velocity of the inside and outside wheels - the contact circumferences remain equal. Any wheels between the leading and trailing wheels would have a different surface speed from the leading and trailing because their contact circumference has not changed. A difficult engineering problem to solve.
I'd never thought 20 would have a blind driver being a smaller locomotive so it's neat to see how it works. Also love the evolution of the graphics and editing :)
Yeah dude I was honestly surprised while I was piling around 20 the other week. "Wait the middle driver is blind??? Why?!?!"
@@Hyce777 Seriously!!! Makes you wonder, though as your video shows, it does seem to help at least a little bit.
In Newhalem, WA on the upper Skagit River, you can see “Old Number 6,” a 1928 Baldwin 2-6-2 that was used there until 1956 (later had a brief career on an excursion railroad which went bust). The center 30” drivers are “blind drivers” because they found the engine was binding on the sharp “Shovel Spur” turn, six miles below Newhalem, and they machined the flanges off so the sharp curve could be easily negotiated.
THAT was very interesting, Hyce. It would be nice to compare the diesel locomotives with these steam locomotives.
Really loving these "how it works" videos! Please keep them coming and maybe even equipment tours showing off some museum rolling stock.
If you have events at your museum there should be a screen inside where your videos are playing. You are describing it sooo good. Thank you
That would be most excellent! I'll see what we can get figured out.
I love these kinds of videos. These kinds of videos are the real money makers for the industry cause you're literally showing how things behave in motion. And when you know what happens in motion you can make better or Maintain things better when you know what happens on the rails.
My hat to those who figured all that out back in the days without gopros. They must have had countless failures and arguments with a few eurêka moment. Great video and content Hyce!!!
The flanges of the right or left wheels grind against the right or left rails because of centrifugal forces on left or right curves. On tight turns we sometimes hear the screeches and scrapes.
Is there somewhere I can read about the patchjobs that RGS did to keep the 20 running before its restoration?
There's a few books the museum has about the restoration of the 20, that I believe goes into a lot of that. I am unsure if there's much out there floating around on the internet.
This reminds me of the British Railways "9F" 2-10-0. I believe that the driving wheels either side of the blind drivers on these have smaller flanges as well.
I absolutely love the shots with the valve gear. Excellent video!
I love the wheel cam on the no2 driver because you can see the Stevenson valve gear and that looked cool.
I wanna go to the rail museum just to listen to Hyce talk about trains irl. I love steam locomotives
Very interesting. Great work. Seeing the science / physics work in the design as intended is awesome. You did a great job capturing it and narrating it.
Well done! This explained something that I never really thought about - now it's part if my "tower of knowledge" - not exactly a skyscraper. Looks like I'll be watching many more of your videos.
Such an interesting video! That was a lot of work you did and I appreciate it all. Watching the active dynamics is fascinating.
At the B&O Railroad Museum in the late 1980s, I saw a small standard gauge 4-6-0 (not all that much bigger than a 4-4-0) from the late 1800s that had both the 1st and 2nd drivers flangeless (presumably the lead bogie had no sideways freedom of movement, unlike here), but instead of the slight dual taper shown here, I could have sworn the profiles of both of these drivers were just plain flat.
Blind wheels were common in the mountain logging railroads. Number 110 with the little river lumber company in tn was built like that . Number 110 still runs today with the little river railroad in cold water Michigan.
THANK YOU for this video. I have been wondering about why some of these locomotives don’t horribly screech around certain tight turns and are even able to navigate tight turns without getting stuck in the bend. This video, and the animations, are a thoroughly helpful explanation to this concept.
I can sleep well tonight with this new information.
This is so great to see after looking at the Class 48 with kAN. Thanks!
It’s freaking me out to see those wheels not leave the track!! 😲😲
Love the editing work Nick is putting in! Adds that last bit of perfecton to the content.
Neophyte here, really enjoyed the mechanics here which I knew very little about. Thanks for educating all of us with cool stuff!.....
Wonderful. Never saw such a beatiful explanation.
Very informative video! Not to mention seeing the designs in use from a perspective that before was only in the minds of the engineers and in their drafting papers. 🙂👍
I was playing with the camera angles in RO! while running the Glenbrook through a 30m right hand curve and noted the center Blind Set drivers were completely floating OFF the rails with them to the left of the wheel set. 30m radius is stupid sharp for a 2-6-0 like the Glenbrook but doable. For the record that was a test piece of track. I try to keep all my tight curves >36-37m radius otherwise rolling stock I noticed like to "Wallow" around in the grade. The Realistic physics settings in RO! are pretty close to real but need a lot more work. Especially if you have a perfectly strait, flat, and long stretch of tangent track, too much speed and rolling stock wants bounce out of it. Makes no sense.
really cool videos as always. I enjoyed the part with the swing motion pilot. I have always wanted to see that, Thanks!
Things I've never really thought about, but very interesting to see... Thumbs Up for the video!
getting a chance to film some big steam on Standard gauge would be awesome!
my guess is that a standard gauge Consolidation 2-8-0 would behave nearly the same as 491 does on narrow gauge.
but looking underneath a Pacific or Northern that have trailing trucks might be an eye opener!
Dang, mark. I am loving how far you have came along recently! Keep up the amazing work!!
sprr pacific locomotive 1913 ran at the Oakland zoo for about 3 or 4 ish years. MacDermot the builder ran the 1913 with no front pilot truck because it couldn't manage the curves. in the short time it ran there it sharpened the #1 drive axle flange into a razor blade. during its restoration we swapped tires with the # 2 axle .
Thank you for this technical approach. This is a rare imaged explanation, or a visualised real investigation, allowed for ordinary people such as me. Thanks
This is fascinating! I never knew there were such things as no flange! Which is a bit scary.
I don't much about about trains but flanges on that axle seem a bit redundant when the axles immediately before and after it on that truck(rigid assembly?) have flanges.
It probably saves a lot of flange wear if run on sharp curves often.
@@h8GW That seems possible!
That was terrific shooting of the flanged and unflanged wheels. Many thanks for showing it.
I like to see funiculars passing loops as some have fangs on both sides on one side but on the other side would be like this flat wheel
Really, really, really GR8T video shots.. HQ and flat out wonderful. See, now I want my own engine. Thanks so much.
It is amazing to see 491 moving again, the first time I saw 491, she was on exhibit and not moving, I loved standing in the cab.
this is so interesting to me, the video really shows how the train pushes through the rails, very cool!
Having never gotten into locomotive info, I was surprised by how informative and I retesting this video was
Love watching the valve gear run, considering it's near impossible to see in normal viewing!
@Hyce I don't know a heck of a lot of train info, just know I have loved them because my step-dad did and we went to many places. He loved the steam trains and we use to have them at a place called Edaville railroad in Carver, MA. Eventually they got rid of them and used diesel like things to pull the cars. I digress. I had paused your video to try to guess why the middle wheel has a blindest and was right. I'm rather proud of myself since I don't really know much lol
Ej holy moly...bling.. Really, I am 38years mate, and a bright light comes to my brain. I never really looked for this, ofcorse I love trains. But I live in northern germany, and normaly the trains have two pairs of wheels in the front and back. But some old steamlocs amd the old person cars have 3 wheels in a line. I really never realised how this works... thats so cool, thanks, have a nice cristmas and a happy new year. Stay healthy!
An awesome bunch of info on a 4-6-0 for me to enjoy.
Right away, before watching the whole video - that was a super smooth, dynamic intro, and I loved it.
What a great Video! Thank you! Visited the CRM back in the day when the running train had only a horse shoe track and not a complete circle..!
Those were the early days! Glad you enjoyed. :)
Watching what the engine did when it slipped was very interesting
when I had a model railroad I loved to take a wheelset and let it coast down a grade for 30 or 40 feet and see how gracefully it would track and stay centered between the rails. When you consider that the contact point of a trainwheel is about the area of a dime, they really do glide over the track.
I know loco's have metal tyres on their wheels but when your running at the museum do you get more wear on one side of the train than the other because you run in a loop? and do you change running direction to negate the wear? I
love the channel and from 1 train geek to another keep up the hard work and the educational videos!
We do change direction to negate the wear unevenness. But yes, we do see that.
I used this technique when building trains in a game called scrap mechanic with mods where the middle driving wheels would have no flange to get around tight curves.
Frogs work the way i thought they did. This video was cool!
Hello, this is the first video of yours I’ve seen, and was pleased as punch to see the engine truck centering device in action. It’s one thing to see the drawings, another to see a video. Thanks for sharing - and I’ll now look through your library!
Cheers Matt! Glad you enjoyed, and, likewise - I had the same reaction when I watched back the footage.
Thanks! There is almost no information on CZcams regarding blind drivers.
listing to this while making homework is perfect, the info is told in a way thats easy to digest, so im learing two things at a time.
I will randomly go on these little kicks of being fascinated with trains and god damn it’s hitting hard rn and I love it
The BR standard 9F has a blind centre axel. They are a 2 10 0 . They are banned from running on the national network because of the blind axel as the point check rails could cause a derailment. With a 5 foot driving wheel set they were clocked a 90 Mph
93mph was the highest
First time I've seen flangeless wheels properly described and filmed. We have them on the 9F's in UK, but I never studied the gauging, or realised they were wider and crowned. Interesting video thanks!
Such a shame that 9fs are prohibited from running on the main line here in the UK. I seem to remember that it was because Evening Star had an argument with some modern point work. Blamed on the flangeless center drivers. Would be fantastic to see a 9 running at linespeed.
Fantastic, these fascinate me. So beautifully shot too Hyce
Wow these animations just kicked the entire video up a few notches to compliment the usual information dump :)
That Stephenson valve gear was mesmerizing
Us in the past: In the future we will have flying hoverboards.
Us in the future: videos of train wheels on the Internet.
I'm cool with this.
That is Very Interesting ! I had the privilege to ride a steam Locomotive in 1969. In Pennsylvania. I will never forget that experience.
i eliminated the middle wheel flanges of some of my locos on my Oe modelrailroad to negociate sharp curves.works realy great.that gave me the possibility to buid a very more spectacular railway.makes even more pleasure knowing it is like the real thing.thanks for your interesting video!
Very interesting, they had no middle wheel flanges on our British 9F five driving axle locos to allow for any sharp curves in the yards.
This perspective was so cool, thanks for filming it 😀
Love learning stuff and your passion! Thank you!
Seems like the Loco is almost crabbing (to use an aviation term) it's way along tbe rails. That's interesting, thanks for making these videos
Been waiting on this. Awesome
I have an 1/8th scale 10 wheeler (7.5" gauge). My layout has 14' radius turns (that would scale to 112' radius turns in your layout). To get my engine to manage such tight turns, I had to blind the center driver. I left the original 3 degree taper, but without the flange, on the center driver. I needed to make it a lot wider.
I also needed to make extensive modifications to the pilot truck. First, the sideways swing needed to be increased to 1.375" from 0.375" (that would be 11" versus 3" in full scale). I also needed to add a mechanism to adjust the axles out-of-parallel (so each axle remains perpendicular to the rails). Without this, the leading outside wheel climbs over the rail. Because of the wide swing, the levers connecting the pilot to the engine needed to be elongated by factor of 16. The tops of the levers just clear the boiler. The engine works great on my layout, except for backing up.
didn't know any of this before or how it worked now i do Thanks HYCE!!