This speaker was the star of Axpona 2023. It is quite frankly among the best speakers I have heard in over 40 years as an "audiophile" for ANY PRICE. They are truly spectacular and for a price of 15K it looks like the price was a typo. It has only one flaw in my book, no way to connect a turntable unless you find an RCA to balanced connection cable which I'm sure will show up in the market in no time flat to accommodate this deficiency. Truly, no holds barred, best speaker to show up in decades. Let's not hold back, it's the best audio SYSTEM in a few decades. Just one more thing gives me some pause, if you have been around audio for a long time, you are well aware that the road is littered with audio manufacturers that have come and gone, given that this is practically a start-up company, survival is a concern. Regardless, their product is quite frankly revolutionary, if they can make inroads in sales and can keep the product reliable and otherwise stress free for the consumer, it's a killer buy. If it does, I can assure you that my next system will most definitely be DD.
This is brilliant. We can all learn so much about room acoustics and loudspeaker design, and appreciate those companies that are making an effort to push the performance envelope forward. So many "high end" speaker designs haven't changed significantly for decades.
I've been an audiophile since Nixon was president. I've been to many audio shows and have heard most of the most expensive loudspeakers ever made. Many of them are wonderful and most of them are over priced. The Dutch & Dutch 8c is one of the best loudspeaker systems I've ever heard and excuse me for saying this, are actually a good value. At $12,000/pair that's kind of a shock, but I hold it to be true. For your $12k, you're not only getting a good loudspeaker. You're also getting an active crossover, which is a huge advantage over any loudspeaker that has a passive crossover, plus you're getting power amps as well. And it's all in a fully engineered system doing things far beyond what any other hi-end audiophile loudspeaker does. And while we're at it, with the amplification built in, you don't need to drop hundreds, or even thousands of dollars on some audiophile loudspeaker cable. The end result is all that matters and I'd put the D&D 8c system up against any loudspeaker, in a typical home environment, at any price. That's going up against all of the $50,000+ systems from Wilson, M&B, Avalon, etc. Heck, the $100,000+ systems as well and remember, all of those guys still require you to buy a power amp and cables. The $12,000 Dutch & Dutch 8c really is a good value. The only other loudspeaker system which I think is in the same range of quality and costs less is the Linkwitz LX521 system when you build it yourself as a DIY project. The commercial systems that are available cost from $16k to $20k. They're still a great system, but the D&D 8c costs less.
I demoed them last week and I WAS FLOORED!!!! Best speakers I’ve heard probably in my life (minus a demo of 801D4s + CLASSE AUDIO setup). Absolutely breathtaking detail; instrument separation and soundstage. However I don’t know how long I could listen to them in terms of fatiguing. I found the B&W 805d4 (which btw is an inferior speaker) much more musical and pleasant to the ear. I know I know, on the numbers (audio measurements) the 8c totally destroys the 805s but I don’t judge it like that. I use my ears as my judgement. And my ears feel like the 805s may not be as details and clinical but hell is more musical (without being too much inferior on the detail side). Unless there’s a way to program the 8c that can sound more “musical”
I have them both and I agree with 805 being more musical it never gets harsh if you use the right amp DD’s tweeter is almost like metallic color the way I hear them specially with top part of the strings and microphone proximity effects from vocals peaks out too loud comparing to everything else This only with some recordings more I pay attention to that problem more I hear it
Oh, Erin. I want a REW measurement video. It will be a video that will be of great help to those who have Dutch 8c or who will purchase them in the future. I waited for reviews and videos day by day and it was difficult. However, I am happy to be able to access such quality information, and thank you.
Okay, to be sure, you're asking about a video discussing how you use the DD8C with REW, correct? Because a "how to tune" video is something else. This can be automatically EQ'd within REW. Whereas a manual tune using an outboard DSP would be a very different process.
Erin's Audio Corner I would be interested to see both 😁 I am awaiting a pair of 8cs but also bought a minidsp 2x4 and a umik1- I would be curious to see how to measure and optimize different setups
@@redalert2progames501 If possible. However, it's true that Erin has a lot to measure and doesn't have enough time to ask carefully. One thing is clear, dealing with REW goes so well with Erin's Audio Corner!
Best speakers I have ever heard. I got to do an extended audition with these, the Kii 3's and a pair of Aerial Acoustics 7Ts and the Dutch & Dutch 8cs were just astounding. I own a pair of Bowers & Wilkins Formation Duos, and even as much as I like the B&Ws, the 8cs are just way, way better. I now have buyers remorse over buying the B&Ws; wish I'd saved a few more $$$ to afford the 8Cs. They are balanced, nuanced, powerful, yet subtle, and the BASS!!! Amazing and incredible speakers and I will have a pair as soon as I can scrape together the cash.
Formations are not in the same universe. These speakers sound as good as B&W diamonds (maybe even better!). Take it from me, I'm a B&W fanboy that has owned and owns 4 sets of B&W's including three sets of diamonds.
Erin, thank you so much for making all of these reviews. I’ve been using your reviews to help make purchasing decisions since you were on DIYMA. The data you provide, amount of detail/effort you put into taking measurements and your willingness to share your knowledge and information in ways a layman can understand is truly invaluable. The DIY community is really lucky to have you, keep up the great work!
I would like to thank you for the time you've put in to reviewing these speakers. I've listened to them on a few occassions and I've never heard a better speaker. This confirms it.
That's actually a really impressive speaker.😮 Beyond my price range sadly but not a bad value considering the cost if you went for that response through a system of individual components. So nice to see something really genuinely well engineered.🙂 Thanks for the great review as always.🙂
Great stuff! I have been an audiophile for nigh on four decades now, and gradually moving away from the mainstream audiophilia for half of that time. What a joy to see someone reviewing hifi equipment based on it being technical appliances for reproducing recorded sound rather than instruments in their own right. Subscribed!
I've tested them today at Studiocare Liverpool. They won against ATCs and PMCs. Stereo image, low mids and next level o those. They sounds like 20k speakers. Really like them.
There’s a lot of similar styled speakers coming out. I have a feeling they may not be as much of a “complete design” as the 8C, but prices will get more competitive. Check out Mesanovic CDM65
@@morespinach9832 that one is way different in design. Especially since it doesn’t offer cardioid response and the Genelecs have a point source design vs spaced out drivers
The downside of this speaker is the presence of harmonic distortion in the midrange, which appears to be a network problem with the tweeter. It seems to be a problem caused by the lack of sufficient mid-range suppression due to the secondary network rather than the quaternary network of the tweeter. It is shown in the first picture of additional measurement.
Holy NFS :) Congrats on the ultimate Spinorama machine! And I am glad the Dutch & Dutch 8c is objectively as good as different reviewers said. A bit expensive - hard to chose these over Genelec One series + subs. This one is going into the Spinorma index faast :D
These speakers do things that I didn't know speakers could do. I frequently hear things in music that sound so lifelike that I have to look around to see that it wasn't coming from my surroundings.
The designer of the speaker really knew his stuff clearly. I don't remember seeing such a combination of a large waveguide, resistance ports and semiactive drivers in a commercial product.
Great review! Very detailed and insightful. Love the B-roll too, very sweet! Just subscribed thanks to your guest star stream with Gene at Audioholics!
Аmazing and very informative ! It would be great if you make a video of how you take the measurements with REW and after that implementing them into the 8C ! Thanks :)
I have a question about active speakers in general. Why do we not see a review of the amplification part of the speaker ? If we were looking at putting a system together with passive speakers and were picking an amplifier there are a whole bunch of measurements we would assess of the amplifier as well as the speaker, but we don't see that with active speakers. I was curious why ?
I'd be curious for you to review the Buchardt A500, in comparison to the Dutch. Seems like Buchardt manages to sell a similar performance and value proposition for less than half the price. I'd be tempted to try the Purifi drivers inside the Buchardt.
I’ve had others ask me about reviewing the A500 as well. If you’d like to contact Buchardt to see if they’d be willing to send me one to test I think that would have more weight than me asking. If enough people ask them then maybe they’ll loan me one for review.
It measures beautifully. S..t, too bad there's no place around where I could listen to them. I can't hear much above 15k, so not a big deal, it would add a little shimmer which most people don't mind at all. Awesome design. The LR4, LR2 crossover has a few dB dip in Power Response, but most people don't seem to complain. Very well balanced.
I’m very interested in a comparison between these. I know they are in different price brackets, but the praise for the A500 and the limited competition in this corner of the market has me interested.
I would be open to reviewing it. But I think at this point I would rely on folks like you to ask Buchardt to send me a sample to test. It might mean more coming from consumers rather than me.
Hi Erin, I'd like to ask some question of something that seemed a little confusing to me: How can the speakers receive a digital signal through AES ? I didn't see on the website they have a DAC, or do they? Thanks Ron
absolutely fantastic review. Having all these measurements supporting your explanations is great. Did you really buy the klippel scanner and all the other klippel measurement devices? All your measuremt equipment should sum up to about 100.000 $ ??
I think a general video on how to EQ your speakers and use acoustic treatments will be more helpful than just a video about EQing 8C, although you can hit two birds with one stone.
Yes, I agree that a general how to on equalization would be good. However, there is a big difference between manual equalization via outboard DSP (like miniDSP, etc) vs using the built-in REW algorithms which then feed directly in to the DD8C.
@@Azzy_Mazzy you use the auto-eq filter generator in REW and then send that to the speakers. There is an option for the D&D8C in the DSP list within REW. Very simple to use.
Something about those distortion figures makes me think they really should expand on the concept. Though I have heard great results with the SEAS Prestige drivers, there is better stuff out there, SEAS Excel being one option, something like the Purifi stuff another, and I'm sure there are more. Intuitively, I'd be curious to see what could be achieved with drivers better suited to the very low crossover frequencies, and even expanding with an added active cardioid bass module, under instead of behind the mid/tweeter unit. Maybe not making it a fullrange, but rather down to a good bit under 100Hz for combining with subs (think of a mumber). Though all in all they look beautiful as is.
A diy guy here in the Netherlands (who is a friend of Martijn from D&D even I think) made a cardioid subwoofer too for his Dutch and Dutch inspired speakers and he personally found it no added benefit above monopoles multi sub. I personally also don’t really expect much improvement below the Schroeder frequency but I’ve never tried it.
@@skandiaart I see. My thought was not really a cardioid sub. In a small room (read more or less any domestic setting) , I'd probably go for corner placed subs anyway. My thought was more along the lines of maintaining cardioid dispersion another octave or so, and cross to subs there.
Seems to me, they focused on (flat) frequency response and (smooth) directivity, but haven't nailed the non-linearities and hence the distortion. You should measure intermodulation on this speaker and look at how it reproduces sine and square waves when, say, two tones are played simultaneously. To my knowledge, Klippel has software that actually can compensate for such non-linearities. I wonder if this can be plugged into a dedicated DSP box (MiniDSP ?) to improve non-linear responses.
@Arena_Rock_Man Yes, but the size is mostly in its front-to-back Depth. But yeah, that could be an issue in smaller rooms, though there is no issue with having these extremely close to the wall, unlike the vast majority of typical "bookshelf" speakers, which IMO, these days are actually, "stand mount" loudspeakers. You also have to consider that the 8C outperforms the vast majority of Floor-standing Tower loudspeakers in all aspects, including SPL capability. Though, I suppose you should expect that at its price. In addition, nearly all floor-standing towers will require that they be pulled out from the wall, so with the 8C, you're still getting class-leading floor-standing tower performance in a relatively compact package. I suppose that one thing you must consider is their use on stands, and the fact that the stands in general take up as much of your "usable" floor space as an actual floor-standing tower loudspeaker would...so there's that. But again, you can keep these close to the wall.
Great videos. Would love to see you do a review of the Tyler Acoustics D2X (or D1X) monitors (passive monitors used in many mastering studios). Not well-known but very recognizable and they can be found in a number of notable mastering studios....however there is not much info on them by way of technical information and/or specs. Maybe you can get your hands on a pair one day.
Thanks. this is the brand. The box says “custom speaker stand” and “26 inch upright filled”. But no model number. Contact them and tell them what you need and they should be able to take care of you. soundanchors.com/products/hi-fi-home-theater
Hi Erin, I have these speakers coming soon but I'm distracted by the Kii Audio Three. Have you heard them? I personally think the Cardioid design would benefit more for me. Thanks - Sean
Oh Erin 90 db is pretty loud to me unbearably loud. I'm afraid when you turn 60 as I am, you gonna have some serious hearing damage and is irreversible unfortunately.
There's no way for me to tear this speaker down. The molding of the waveguide/baffle on the front is somehow adhered to the speaker itself. I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to take it apart.
What do you think about open baffle/dipoles? The claim there is similar, that when designed appropriately, they end up having a cardiod pattern. Looking forward to more content!
@@ErinsAudioCorner Yeah, there was a forum thread from a guy who works in the Spatial Audio factory who was saying only the most recent designs have solved the bass (lacking) issue. I'd love to hear them myself.
@@vinnytube1001 OB/dipoles do offer similar advantages. However, the caveat is that they require lots of "room to breath", meaning they cannot be placed close to the walls behind or to the sides. They must be pulled well into the room to provide their benefits.
I explained this in the video but more in the written review. It was to compare how the boundary loading effects the result when the DSP setting for Front Wall Distance is set to “free” vs compensated.
@Erin's Audio Corner Great review, Erin. I can fully understand why you wanted to hold off on this review until you received the Klippel NFS. Its precision measurement capabilities are paramount in demonstrating the unique technology used in these loudspeakers. And the NFS will definitely allow you more time to test other speakers in a timely manner, as well as more time for the B-roll antics. :-)
i have some questions about the speaker: does it have a hiss noise? how long is the processing delay? and i have an issue with the 100hz crossover, it means that its would basically sound like a bookshelf speakers with subwoofer crossover at 100hz. meaning that the output between 100hz and 200hz is lacking and only produced by a a 8". a large 3 way floor standing speaker sound so big is because it has 300 hz crossover to midrange or higher. if Dutch & Dutch 8c set the 100hz to 200hz would that work with rear firing drivers and solve this whole issue?
I understand what you mean with it sounding like bookshelfs plus a sub. Where it just doesn't sound like one whole. But because here the woofers are physically mounted close to the rest of the speaker this won't be an issue and they will sound coherent. The 8" mid woofer can deliver a lot. 8" woofer is a relatively large mid driver. It certainly won't sound lacking between 100 Hz and 200 Hz. Especially because these speakers are active they can be integrated seamlessly.
@@svenmuilwijk9952 you got some valid points but not my main concern, these active speakers are basically a 3 way but with the crossover as a bookshelf speaker. 8" doing the work 100 to 200hz is better than most bookshelf speakers its not comparable to floorstanding 3 ways. and my point was that there might be a solution built right onto the speakers, just adjusting the crossover to 200hz and you might get more benefits, and you could also then design the speaker with smaller front mid woofer and more narrow baffle. but i think dual subwoofers and a dedicated mains speakers made to be best at 200hz and above would be better than any one speaker trying to do it all.
@@sudd3660 well in a more traditional speaker design where basically you want the widest possible dispersion this would be the right thing to do. But remember that this speaker is designed with directivity as goal. And the 8" offers more directivity than a 6,5". Therefore they also use the waveguide around the tweeter. So the 8" probably better suits that task. And the 8" additionally offers higher SPL with lower distortion and potentially better dynamics. And remember that they obviously experimented a lot with the crossover as one would when designing any speaker. So they most probably tried it with 200 Hz crossover but found the 100 Hz crossover to be optimal.
@@svenmuilwijk9952 you still can have cardioid 200hz and above, but a great point about matching directivity with the tweeter and waveguide. and what they found optimal is for that speaker to work in the widest frequency band as possible, if you make a speaker that does 200hz and above you gain more benefits and you get the benefits of subwoofers with all the adjustment and placement that entails. not to mention larger cone area up to 200 hz and facing forward. you cant call a hifi system full range without a subwoofer in this case.
I see your other questions have been addressed but... no hiss noise. Unless you're within a foot. And no one is listening in the nearfield with a speaker like this. The wavefronts won't have aligned.
The only worry about the 8C is the warranty period. It's a great speaker, but it's very expensive and it's a big mistake to not use it for a long time and you need a solid guarantee against accidents. Questions. Is the Dutch 8C designed to be able to use it with confidence for a long time? If I have used it for more than 10 years, can it be repaired by the company? (World Warranty) Perhaps this question is an uncertain future prediction. However, the price of this speaker is at the level that should be guaranteed, and in fact, competitors do.
Can you review spatial audio sapphire speakers? Online chatter say they are great but that’s what people say about magnepan lrs...(which did not measure well according to a audiosciencereview article)
@@exprymer I would have to check but if I had to guess, I’d say so. Most manufacturers are good about telling you in their manual. Sometimes you have to ask, though.
Yeah prices high but how do you rate them with other speakers in a similar price category say 10,000 to 20,000 that's the question? Definitely cardioid is the way to go and has been employed speakers and subwoofers for a long time Pro Audio not sure why it's taken so long for domestic speakers
Right. I don't know how to rank them farily because I don't have experience with anything else in that range (yet). I just have to think... how do you improve on sound like this? And what does that cost? Questions that I do not have answers to.
Nice review Erin. I appreciate your measurements and your explanations. One observation on the crossover frequency and directivity differences. The woofer is getting directional near 800 hertz. No amount of EQ will ever change this. The only option to mitigate this is to use a tweeter that can go down lower, or properly load the tweeter in a horn that will give it the needed lower frequency reinforcement. This is a very well engineered loudspeaker. Many good design choices have been made on this and it shows amply in the response that you have measured. Oh, you didn't say anything about floor and ceiling bounce!
Man I'd love this system, but I'd have a hard time with the vertical dispersion... There is no reason not to use a coincident mid/tweeter in modern speakers!
Sure, the vertical dispersion has its issues. But concentric speakers are not without fault. Every pair I've ever heard has its own issues (namely, HF modulation via the moving waveguide). When a proper HPF is used that helps very much and then you're back to having a very nice point-source. Still, I can't think of a concentric design that sound as good as these. But, maybe there are some I am not aware of?
@@ErinsAudioCorner Genelec crosses the woofer in the 8260 over around 500hz and then goes to one of their minimum diffraction coaxial drivers... I've never heard better, and reading their whitepaper on that model it seems that having a three way speaker solved the Doppler effect present on other speakers. They also solved the diffraction problem most others have with air gaps and non-seamless transitions to the waveguide, or baffle diffraction on cabinet edges. I actually emailed them asking about some details on their main monitors and new MDC drivers and the only drawback in the modern era for a coincident driver is SPL because you can't get a large enough magnet like you can for a separate tweeter and mid-range. Other than that though, the low distortion, wide frequency response range, excellent off axis dispersion vertically and horizontally, and +/-1dB accuracy speaks for itself. I'll bet the 8c takes care of bass problems better and likely outputs more, but I'm curious how flat the reflected sound is since every two way speaker I listen to has lobeing issues to the point it sounds broken if I'm too high or too low. The 8c is still really competitive though until someone does something like Genelec The Ones with w371 woofer systems for cheaper. Maybe Devialet will do it. Heck, Devialet has point source stuff that is acoustically coaxial but doesn't have a moving waveguide at all, or they have their larger ones that are acoustically tri-axial and might not have that issue either since they are three ways
@@ErinsAudioCorner Ahh, yes ok I do recall now! Now have you had any chance to find out what the active device is in these bad boys? I will go ahead and safely assume either ICEpower or Hypex modules.
I really do wonder what the deal is with Denmark and Class D. No US chip makers can seem to find the secret sauce recipe. The LM3886 is the best I have found so far for american chip amps and its 20 years old now.
@@morespinach9832 the designs are completely different. The 8C is a cardio design, which basically prevents the lower mid range from reflecting off the wall behind the speaker. I discussed this in the review.
@@ErinsAudioCornerthank you. I’ve heard that and in your review here too. That doesn’t explain the sonic diff between a D&D and an ATC that’s kept far from the wall with isoacoustics pucks.
This speaker was the star of Axpona 2023. It is quite frankly among the best speakers I have heard in over 40 years as an "audiophile" for ANY PRICE. They are truly spectacular and for a price of 15K it looks like the price was a typo. It has only one flaw in my book, no way to connect a turntable unless you find an RCA to balanced connection cable which I'm sure will show up in the market in no time flat to accommodate this deficiency. Truly, no holds barred, best speaker to show up in decades. Let's not hold back, it's the best audio SYSTEM in a few decades. Just one more thing gives me some pause, if you have been around audio for a long time, you are well aware that the road is littered with audio manufacturers that have come and gone, given that this is practically a start-up company, survival is a concern. Regardless, their product is quite frankly revolutionary, if they can make inroads in sales and can keep the product reliable and otherwise stress free for the consumer, it's a killer buy. If it does, I can assure you that my next system will most definitely be DD.
This is brilliant. We can all learn so much about room acoustics and loudspeaker design, and appreciate those companies that are making an effort to push the performance envelope forward. So many "high end" speaker designs haven't changed significantly for decades.
well, Roy Allison (rip) would have something to say about this "newfangled" design ;)
I've been an audiophile since Nixon was president. I've been to many audio shows and have heard most of the most expensive loudspeakers ever made. Many of them are wonderful and most of them are over priced. The Dutch & Dutch 8c is one of the best loudspeaker systems I've ever heard and excuse me for saying this, are actually a good value. At $12,000/pair that's kind of a shock, but I hold it to be true. For your $12k, you're not only getting a good loudspeaker. You're also getting an active crossover, which is a huge advantage over any loudspeaker that has a passive crossover, plus you're getting power amps as well. And it's all in a fully engineered system doing things far beyond what any other hi-end audiophile loudspeaker does. And while we're at it, with the amplification built in, you don't need to drop hundreds, or even thousands of dollars on some audiophile loudspeaker cable.
The end result is all that matters and I'd put the D&D 8c system up against any loudspeaker, in a typical home environment, at any price. That's going up against all of the $50,000+ systems from Wilson, M&B, Avalon, etc. Heck, the $100,000+ systems as well and remember, all of those guys still require you to buy a power amp and cables.
The $12,000 Dutch & Dutch 8c really is a good value.
The only other loudspeaker system which I think is in the same range of quality and costs less is the Linkwitz LX521 system when you build it yourself as a DIY project. The commercial systems that are available cost from $16k to $20k. They're still a great system, but the D&D 8c costs less.
I demoed them last week and I WAS FLOORED!!!! Best speakers I’ve heard probably in my life (minus a demo of 801D4s + CLASSE AUDIO setup). Absolutely breathtaking detail; instrument separation and soundstage. However I don’t know how long I could listen to them in terms of fatiguing. I found the B&W 805d4 (which btw is an inferior speaker) much more musical and pleasant to the ear. I know I know, on the numbers (audio measurements) the 8c totally destroys the 805s but I don’t judge it like that. I use my ears as my judgement. And my ears feel like the 805s may not be as details and clinical but hell is more musical (without being too much inferior on the detail side). Unless there’s a way to program the 8c that can sound more “musical”
I have them both and I agree with 805 being more musical it never gets harsh if you use the right amp
DD’s tweeter is almost like metallic color the way I hear them specially with top part of the strings and microphone proximity effects from vocals peaks out too loud comparing to everything else
This only with some recordings more I pay attention to that problem more I hear it
Oh, Erin. I want a REW measurement video. It will be a video that will be of great help to those who have Dutch 8c or who will purchase them in the future.
I waited for reviews and videos day by day and it was difficult.
However, I am happy to be able to access such quality information, and thank you.
Yes please for the rew video 👍🏻
+1. Please show us the REW measurement video.
Okay, to be sure, you're asking about a video discussing how you use the DD8C with REW, correct? Because a "how to tune" video is something else. This can be automatically EQ'd within REW. Whereas a manual tune using an outboard DSP would be a very different process.
Erin's Audio Corner I would be interested to see both 😁 I am awaiting a pair of 8cs but also bought a minidsp 2x4 and a umik1- I would be curious to see how to measure and optimize different setups
@@redalert2progames501
If possible. However, it's true that Erin has a lot to measure and doesn't have enough time to ask carefully.
One thing is clear, dealing with REW goes so well with Erin's Audio Corner!
Best speakers I have ever heard. I got to do an extended audition with these, the Kii 3's and a pair of Aerial Acoustics 7Ts and the Dutch & Dutch 8cs were just astounding. I own a pair of Bowers & Wilkins Formation Duos, and even as much as I like the B&Ws, the 8cs are just way, way better. I now have buyers remorse over buying the B&Ws; wish I'd saved a few more $$$ to afford the 8Cs. They are balanced, nuanced, powerful, yet subtle, and the BASS!!! Amazing and incredible speakers and I will have a pair as soon as I can scrape together the cash.
Formations are not in the same universe. These speakers sound as good as B&W diamonds (maybe even better!). Take it from me, I'm a B&W fanboy that has owned and owns 4 sets of B&W's including three sets of diamonds.
Erin, thank you so much for making all of these reviews. I’ve been using your reviews to help make purchasing decisions since you were on DIYMA. The data you provide, amount of detail/effort you put into taking measurements and your willingness to share your knowledge and information in ways a layman can understand is truly invaluable. The DIY community is really lucky to have you, keep up the great work!
Dude! That's super awesome of you to say. It means a lot! Thank you!
I would like to thank you for the time you've put in to reviewing these speakers. I've listened to them on a few occassions and I've never heard a better speaker. This confirms it.
Nice one, Erin. I am sure a lot of people wonder how it compares to Kii3's.
Came here to put this question 😄👍
Same question here!
Great review, Erin. Thank you very much. All prospective speaker buyers should demand for Spinorama data.
Thank you, Christian.
That's actually a really impressive speaker.😮 Beyond my price range sadly but not a bad value considering the cost if you went for that response through a system of individual components. So nice to see something really genuinely well engineered.🙂
Thanks for the great review as always.🙂
This review has been a long time coming🤣👍. Excellent
Amen to that! I'm glad to finally have it completed and to have gotten the opportunity.
Oh boy...I will receive my 8Cs (hopefully) by the end of next week...I can't wait!!
One of the Best Speakers there is. Amazing Directivity plot. State of the Art i Would Say.
Great stuff! I have been an audiophile for nigh on four decades now, and gradually moving away from the mainstream audiophilia for half of that time. What a joy to see someone reviewing hifi equipment based on it being technical appliances for reproducing recorded sound rather than instruments in their own right. Subscribed!
Would love to see how you set the speakers up with REW.
Fascinating, that's for taking the time to put this together. 👍
My pleasure!
I've never seen such a comprehensive and interesting review. Nicely done, definitely subscribing.
I've tested them today at Studiocare Liverpool. They won against ATCs and PMCs. Stereo image, low mids and next level o those. They sounds like 20k speakers. Really like them.
Did you get them for studio use?
@@dougleydorite im still saving for them 😭
There’s a lot of similar styled speakers coming out. I have a feeling they may not be as much of a “complete design” as the 8C, but prices will get more competitive. Check out Mesanovic CDM65
@@dougleydoriteor more established ones like Genelec 8351B.
@@morespinach9832 that one is way different in design. Especially since it doesn’t offer cardioid response and the Genelecs have a point source design vs spaced out drivers
This is what I call thoroughly measured and reviewed!👌Excellent work sir!
Thank you kindly!
Oh and the REW video....yes please! :)
Rew mesurement video would be great! Thanks for your video.
Noted!
The downside of this speaker is the presence of harmonic distortion in the midrange, which appears to be a network problem with the tweeter. It seems to be a problem caused by the lack of sufficient mid-range suppression due to the secondary network rather than the quaternary network of the tweeter. It is shown in the first picture of additional measurement.
The review was great, but the B roll was the unexpected hit of this video. We now expect a B roll with every review.
LOL
Holy NFS :) Congrats on the ultimate Spinorama machine!
And I am glad the Dutch & Dutch 8c is objectively as good as different reviewers said. A bit expensive - hard to chose these over Genelec One series + subs.
This one is going into the Spinorma index faast :D
Thanks, man! I appreciate your support. :)
Love the B roll!
12:15 holy shit so basically perfection
nice work on that gif, btw. way above and beyond. awesome review!
Much appreciated!
These speakers do things that I didn't know speakers could do. I frequently hear things in music that sound so lifelike that I have to look around to see that it wasn't coming from my surroundings.
I have the same experience :-)
The designer of the speaker really knew his stuff clearly. I don't remember seeing such a combination of a large waveguide, resistance ports and semiactive drivers in a commercial product.
Watched the review and found the only "defect" on the speakers. The price. :( I am dreaming of having them in the new apartment. :D
I like your reviews they’re informative, honest and to the point. Thanks for sharing
I appreciate that. Really.
thanks...very interesting! Burger and Butterworth suggested listening to this review. Glad I did...now if I only had a spare 12K
This is a great video format / view. Nice job =)
Great review! Very detailed and insightful. Love the B-roll too, very sweet! Just subscribed thanks to your guest star stream with Gene at Audioholics!
Now thats a speaker.
Thank you!!! Finally, someone who knows how to pronounce “timbray”!
I sure would be interested in a detailed technical investigation into the dipole aspect of this design.
I would, too. But there's just not enough time.
Thank you, man! This has been long awaited.
You bet!
Considering selling my passive speakers & pre/pro set up for these puppies. 🤔
very impressive speaker! Also all the data from the Klippel is pretty cool👍👍
wow this is it... The best review in the world, tribute ;-) and on top of it you use metric, that bonus.
Wow, thanks! Glad you liked it!
@@ErinsAudioCorner love it! this is how review should be made ;-) and you deserve to keep the D&D 8c :-)
Thanks Erin. I'm the proud owner of a Dutch & Dutch 8m, which is no longer made. It is an 8c without the cardioid design + woofers in the back.
is there a solid wall behind the speakers ?
Аmazing and very informative ! It would be great if you make a video of how you take the measurements with REW and after that implementing them into the 8C ! Thanks :)
Noted. 👍
I have a question about active speakers in general. Why do we not see a review of the amplification part of the speaker ? If we were looking at putting a system together with passive speakers and were picking an amplifier there are a whole bunch of measurements we would assess of the amplifier as well as the speaker, but we don't see that with active speakers. I was curious why ?
Thanks for such a great review. I hope I had this kind of review in thirty years ago!
You're welcome!
My end game speakers for when I sell all of my home theater gear!
No doubt. Have you had the chance to hear them yet?
Superb review all brands need to submit review on basis like this then there will be less returns after purchase. I didn’t expect it to touch 20hz
Thanks, Anand!
impressive linearity
I'd be curious for you to review the Buchardt A500, in comparison to the Dutch. Seems like Buchardt manages to sell a similar performance and value proposition for less than half the price. I'd be tempted to try the Purifi drivers inside the Buchardt.
I’ve had others ask me about reviewing the A500 as well. If you’d like to contact Buchardt to see if they’d be willing to send me one to test I think that would have more weight than me asking. If enough people ask them then maybe they’ll loan me one for review.
It measures beautifully. S..t, too bad there's no place around where I could listen to them. I can't hear much above 15k, so not a big deal, it would add a little shimmer which most people don't mind at all. Awesome design. The LR4, LR2 crossover has a few dB dip in Power Response, but most people don't seem to complain. Very well balanced.
So how do these compare against KEF reference 1 META?
Would like to see how this compares to Grimm LS1be.
A very impressive speaker.
Great review Erin...hope you can review the Buchardt A500 soon. Thanks.
I’m very interested in a comparison between these. I know they are in different price brackets, but the praise for the A500 and the limited competition in this corner of the market has me interested.
I would be open to reviewing it. But I think at this point I would rely on folks like you to ask Buchardt to send me a sample to test. It might mean more coming from consumers rather than me.
Loved the B-Roll!!!
Fantastic review, thanks for your work 🙏
Much appreciated!
Thanks for your work, man.
Excellent review. I loved your KEF R3 review and bought it. How does this one compare to the R3s? Thank you 🙏
There's really no comparison. The DD8C is a true full-range speaker with all sorts of inputs to boot. But it's about $10k more for the pair.
@@ErinsAudioCorner thank you
I think there is lot's of documentation about how we are less sensitive to distortion in low bass and it appears louder to us?
Hi Erin, I'd like to ask some question of something that seemed a little confusing to me: How can the speakers receive a digital signal through AES ? I didn't see on the website they have a DAC, or do they?
Thanks
Ron
absolutely fantastic review. Having all these measurements supporting your explanations is great. Did you really buy the klippel scanner and all the other klippel measurement devices? All your measuremt equipment should sum up to about 100.000 $ ??
Could you not solve the directivity issue around the Xover frequency with an MTM design also ?
I think a general video on how to EQ your speakers and use acoustic treatments will be more helpful than just a video about EQing 8C, although you can hit two birds with one stone.
Yes, I agree that a general how to on equalization would be good. However, there is a big difference between manual equalization via outboard DSP (like miniDSP, etc) vs using the built-in REW algorithms which then feed directly in to the DD8C.
@@ErinsAudioCorner do you send the measurements to the D&D 8C or use the REW auto EQ function and then send the filters?
@@Azzy_Mazzy you use the auto-eq filter generator in REW and then send that to the speakers. There is an option for the D&D8C in the DSP list within REW. Very simple to use.
Something about those distortion figures makes me think they really should expand on the concept. Though I have heard great results with the SEAS Prestige drivers, there is better stuff out there, SEAS Excel being one option, something like the Purifi stuff another, and I'm sure there are more. Intuitively, I'd be curious to see what could be achieved with drivers better suited to the very low crossover frequencies, and even expanding with an added active cardioid bass module, under instead of behind the mid/tweeter unit. Maybe not making it a fullrange, but rather down to a good bit under 100Hz for combining with subs (think of a mumber).
Though all in all they look beautiful as is.
A diy guy here in the Netherlands (who is a friend of Martijn from D&D even I think) made a cardioid subwoofer too for his Dutch and Dutch inspired speakers and he personally found it no added benefit above monopoles multi sub. I personally also don’t really expect much improvement below the Schroeder frequency but I’ve never tried it.
@@skandiaart I see. My thought was not really a cardioid sub. In a small room (read more or less any domestic setting) , I'd probably go for corner placed subs anyway. My thought was more along the lines of maintaining cardioid dispersion another octave or so, and cross to subs there.
Seems to me, they focused on (flat) frequency response and (smooth) directivity, but haven't nailed the non-linearities and hence the distortion. You should measure intermodulation on this speaker and look at how it reproduces sine and square waves when, say, two tones are played simultaneously. To my knowledge, Klippel has software that actually can compensate for such non-linearities. I wonder if this can be plugged into a dedicated DSP box (MiniDSP ?) to improve non-linear responses.
Geeze, the Dutch & Dutch is a monster of a bookshelf speaker in size!
Right? 50-something pounds! 😮
@Arena_Rock_Man
Yes, but the size is mostly in its front-to-back Depth. But yeah, that could be an issue in smaller rooms, though there is no issue with having these extremely close to the wall, unlike the vast majority of typical "bookshelf" speakers, which IMO, these days are actually, "stand mount" loudspeakers.
You also have to consider that the 8C outperforms the vast majority of Floor-standing Tower loudspeakers in all aspects, including SPL capability. Though, I suppose you should expect that at its price.
In addition, nearly all floor-standing towers will require that they be pulled out from the wall, so with the 8C, you're still getting class-leading floor-standing tower performance in a relatively compact package.
I suppose that one thing you must consider is their use on stands, and the fact that the stands in general take up as much of your "usable" floor space as an actual floor-standing tower loudspeaker would...so there's that. But again, you can keep these close to the wall.
Great videos. Would love to see you do a review of the Tyler Acoustics D2X (or D1X) monitors (passive monitors used in many mastering studios). Not well-known but very recognizable and they can be found in a number of notable mastering studios....however there is not much info on them by way of technical information and/or specs. Maybe you can get your hands on a pair one day.
Noted!
Great review but I missed the step response graph.
I'd love to see how you use RTA in REW!
Excellent review. What stands are you using?
Thanks. this is the brand. The box says “custom speaker stand” and “26 inch upright filled”. But no model number. Contact them and tell them what you need and they should be able to take care of you.
soundanchors.com/products/hi-fi-home-theater
wow! brilliant
Thank you for your insight, could we see a Buchardt A500 review in the future? :)
If enough people ask Buchardt to send me a review sample, I’d be happy to review it. 👍
@ErinsAudioCorner Can you please tell me the make/model of the stand the 8C has been mounted on? Thanks.
I’m looking seriously at this pair, but how do I connect a peripheral such as a turntable and/or downstreamer device like a Bluesound Node
Place to ask is the FB group for these speakers. Several have posted this.
Hi Erin, I have these speakers coming soon but I'm distracted by the Kii Audio Three. Have you heard them? I personally think the Cardioid design would benefit more for me. Thanks - Sean
Btw. If you see distortion like that it leads me to worry about compression.
Compression isn’t bad, really.
www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/dutch_dutch_8c/
If you push it up against the wall, won't it block the woofers? And break cardioid functionality?
No, that's not how sound works. Sound is waves, not a "beam"
Not against the wall but within a few inches
Muckery - not confused with a rhyming word that starts with an F.
Factory?
.... 😅
Great job!
Thanks, Mr. Intellect! :)
Oh Erin 90 db is pretty loud to me unbearably loud. I'm afraid when you turn 60 as I am, you gonna have some serious hearing damage and is irreversible unfortunately.
Oh, I'm not listening for extended periods of time. My hearing damage is more likely to come from my headphone-while-BMX'ing days. :/
Erin was eager to know how the 8C works construction and principle and driver TS parameters if possible
There's no way for me to tear this speaker down. The molding of the waveguide/baffle on the front is somehow adhered to the speaker itself. I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to take it apart.
What do you think about open baffle/dipoles? The claim there is similar, that when designed appropriately, they end up having a cardiod pattern. Looking forward to more content!
It's been a very long time since I have heard an OB setup (a good one, at least). I have yet to measure one as well. Maybe one day.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Yeah, there was a forum thread from a guy who works in the Spatial Audio factory who was saying only the most recent designs have solved the bass (lacking) issue. I'd love to hear them myself.
@@vinnytube1001
OB/dipoles do offer similar advantages. However, the caveat is that they require lots of "room to breath", meaning they cannot be placed close to the walls behind or to the sides. They must be pulled well into the room to provide their benefits.
Those look giant and purdy. 😍
Why did you place the loudspeaker 9 cm off the ground when testing outdoors, versus ear level or directly on the ground?
I explained this in the video but more in the written review. It was to compare how the boundary loading effects the result when the DSP setting for Front Wall Distance is set to “free” vs compensated.
@Erin's Audio Corner
Great review, Erin. I can fully understand why you wanted to hold off on this review until you received the Klippel NFS.
Its precision measurement capabilities are paramount in demonstrating the unique technology used in these loudspeakers.
And the NFS will definitely allow you more time to test other speakers in a timely manner, as well as more time for the B-roll antics. :-)
i have some questions about the speaker: does it have a hiss noise? how long is the processing delay?
and i have an issue with the 100hz crossover, it means that its would basically sound like a bookshelf speakers with subwoofer crossover at 100hz. meaning that the output between 100hz and 200hz is lacking and only produced by a a 8". a large 3 way floor standing speaker sound so big is because it has 300 hz crossover to midrange or higher.
if Dutch & Dutch 8c set the 100hz to 200hz would that work with rear firing drivers and solve this whole issue?
I understand what you mean with it sounding like bookshelfs plus a sub. Where it just doesn't sound like one whole. But because here the woofers are physically mounted close to the rest of the speaker this won't be an issue and they will sound coherent.
The 8" mid woofer can deliver a lot. 8" woofer is a relatively large mid driver. It certainly won't sound lacking between 100 Hz and 200 Hz. Especially because these speakers are active they can be integrated seamlessly.
@@svenmuilwijk9952 you got some valid points but not my main concern, these active speakers are basically a 3 way but with the crossover as a bookshelf speaker.
8" doing the work 100 to 200hz is better than most bookshelf speakers its not comparable to floorstanding 3 ways.
and my point was that there might be a solution built right onto the speakers, just adjusting the crossover to 200hz and you might get more benefits, and you could also then design the speaker with smaller front mid woofer and more narrow baffle.
but i think dual subwoofers and a dedicated mains speakers made to be best at 200hz and above would be better than any one speaker trying to do it all.
@@sudd3660 well in a more traditional speaker design where basically you want the widest possible dispersion this would be the right thing to do. But remember that this speaker is designed with directivity as goal. And the 8" offers more directivity than a 6,5". Therefore they also use the waveguide around the tweeter. So the 8" probably better suits that task. And the 8" additionally offers higher SPL with lower distortion and potentially better dynamics.
And remember that they obviously experimented a lot with the crossover as one would when designing any speaker. So they most probably tried it with 200 Hz crossover but found the 100 Hz crossover to be optimal.
@@svenmuilwijk9952 you still can have cardioid 200hz and above, but a great point about matching directivity with the tweeter and waveguide.
and what they found optimal is for that speaker to work in the widest frequency band as possible, if you make a speaker that does 200hz and above you gain more benefits and you get the benefits of subwoofers with all the adjustment and placement that entails. not to mention larger cone area up to 200 hz and facing forward.
you cant call a hifi system full range without a subwoofer in this case.
I see your other questions have been addressed but... no hiss noise. Unless you're within a foot. And no one is listening in the nearfield with a speaker like this. The wavefronts won't have aligned.
Lol!! B-Roll!!!! Great video Erin👍
Thank you!! 😁
way out of YOUR budget? you just got the scanner in exchange for what, your soul? pretty sure you could spare a kidney, too
:D
All the more reason why I can't afford anything else! 😂😦
For studio usage do you recommend removing corner wall bass trapping? I understand the wall trapping directly behind the monitors should be removed.
I just bought them , remove bass traps only if 8C is directly infront of them, other way don`t
Almost certainly not, provided the corner basstrapping is helping to even out the waterfall graph you should keep bass trapping!
The only worry about the 8C is the warranty period. It's a great speaker, but it's very expensive and it's a big mistake to not use it for a long time and you need a solid guarantee against accidents.
Questions.
Is the Dutch 8C designed to be able to use it with confidence for a long time?
If I have used it for more than 10 years, can it be repaired by the company?
(World Warranty)
Perhaps this question is an uncertain future prediction. However, the price of this speaker is at the level that should be guaranteed, and in fact, competitors do.
Those are certainly fair questions. One that I, unfortunately, am unable to answer.
Can you review spatial audio sapphire speakers? Online chatter say they are great but that’s what people say about magnepan lrs...(which did not measure well according to a audiosciencereview article)
I'm not opposed to it.
Question: The manufacture tells us that the Acoustic Center is there or did you take some preliminar measurement?
I verified with the manufacturer who confirmed the design axis was between those two points. Which is typical for a waveguide design.
@@ErinsAudioCorner interesting. Could i assume the reference for a LSR 305 which has the same design is between them too?
@@exprymer I would have to check but if I had to guess, I’d say so. Most manufacturers are good about telling you in their manual. Sometimes you have to ask, though.
Yeah prices high but how do you rate them with other speakers in a similar price category say 10,000 to 20,000 that's the question?
Definitely cardioid is the way to go and has been employed speakers and subwoofers for a long time Pro Audio not sure why it's taken so long for domestic speakers
Right. I don't know how to rank them farily because I don't have experience with anything else in that range (yet). I just have to think... how do you improve on sound like this? And what does that cost? Questions that I do not have answers to.
Still the best way to watch Soundstage is on WTTW.
Nice review Erin. I appreciate your measurements and your explanations. One observation on the crossover frequency and directivity differences. The woofer is getting directional near 800 hertz. No amount of EQ will ever change this. The only option to mitigate this is to use a tweeter that can go down lower, or properly load the tweeter in a horn that will give it the needed lower frequency reinforcement. This is a very well engineered loudspeaker. Many good design choices have been made on this and it shows amply in the response that you have measured. Oh, you didn't say anything about floor and ceiling bounce!
Thanks, Mark! Floor and ceiling bounce? What's that? A trampoline?! 😂😉😜
Man I'd love this system, but I'd have a hard time with the vertical dispersion... There is no reason not to use a coincident mid/tweeter in modern speakers!
Sure, the vertical dispersion has its issues. But concentric speakers are not without fault. Every pair I've ever heard has its own issues (namely, HF modulation via the moving waveguide). When a proper HPF is used that helps very much and then you're back to having a very nice point-source. Still, I can't think of a concentric design that sound as good as these. But, maybe there are some I am not aware of?
@@ErinsAudioCorner Genelec crosses the woofer in the 8260 over around 500hz and then goes to one of their minimum diffraction coaxial drivers... I've never heard better, and reading their whitepaper on that model it seems that having a three way speaker solved the Doppler effect present on other speakers.
They also solved the diffraction problem most others have with air gaps and non-seamless transitions to the waveguide, or baffle diffraction on cabinet edges.
I actually emailed them asking about some details on their main monitors and new MDC drivers and the only drawback in the modern era for a coincident driver is SPL because you can't get a large enough magnet like you can for a separate tweeter and mid-range.
Other than that though, the low distortion, wide frequency response range, excellent off axis dispersion vertically and horizontally, and +/-1dB accuracy speaks for itself.
I'll bet the 8c takes care of bass problems better and likely outputs more, but I'm curious how flat the reflected sound is since every two way speaker I listen to has lobeing issues to the point it sounds broken if I'm too high or too low.
The 8c is still really competitive though until someone does something like Genelec The Ones with w371 woofer systems for cheaper. Maybe Devialet will do it. Heck, Devialet has point source stuff that is acoustically coaxial but doesn't have a moving waveguide at all, or they have their larger ones that are acoustically tri-axial and might not have that issue either since they are three ways
The only cheap speaker to measure this good is the il60. My dad had great taste haha
They should just go ahead and call the company "Double Dutch"! Is this different from the set you reviewed months back?
This is the same speaker. Remember, I didn’t review them in that video. Just talked about what makes them special. 😎
@@ErinsAudioCorner Ahh, yes ok I do recall now! Now have you had any chance to find out what the active device is in these bad boys? I will go ahead and safely assume either ICEpower or Hypex modules.
@@AllboroLCD pascal amplification.
I really do wonder what the deal is with Denmark and Class D. No US chip makers can seem to find the secret sauce recipe. The LM3886 is the best I have found so far for american chip amps and its 20 years old now.
So 105db sensitive? 2.83v for 105db is crazy
This is a powered speaker so the sensitivity is calculated with the internal amp's gain.
Ref 1 Meta with what amp would match the D&D 8C?
You'll never get them to sound remotely the same no matter what electronics you use. If that's your goal (I assume it is by your question).
@@ErinsAudioCorner Ah I thought so. What’s the difference, in subjective terms?
@@morespinach9832 the designs are completely different. The 8C is a cardio design, which basically prevents the lower mid range from reflecting off the wall behind the speaker. I discussed this in the review.
@@ErinsAudioCornerthank you. I’ve heard that and in your review here too. That doesn’t explain the sonic diff between a D&D and an ATC that’s kept far from the wall with isoacoustics pucks.