Are Smack Stacks A Fad?
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- Get the free transcription - bit.ly/3Jh5OBH
Ben Bratton, composer of my Meinl tracks, maven of the small hats - / benbrattondrums
Chapters
0:00 - intro
1:38 - how to get free transcriptions
1:51 - were sock cymbals a fad?
3:11 - were rock beats a fad?
3:34 - stack basics
4:48 - zil bells
5:40 - stack intermediate stuff
7:13 - modern drum "trends"
8:55 - 32-izing sextuplets
9:55 - stuff that went out of fashion then came back
10:35 - outro - Hudba
I can't remeber a time when drummer's weren't hitting something goofy
She let me hit it cuz I'm goofy (she's my drum kit)
@@the_spkr lol save it for Zack’s channel
1922-1976
😂😂😂😂
in 1974 on the song "one more red nightmare" by king crimson, bill bruford played a very strange trashy cymbal and it sounded amazing
A drummer is a percussionist. Any thing giving us that sound we need for a song is okay.
I think it will be more like cowbells are now. Some play them incredibly well, in timeless fashion. For some they are misplaced and even annoying. But in certain styles of music they are essential. I love the sock cymbal history.
I strongly believe stacks are going to be one of those fads that automatically date your music back to a specific period of time, much like the 90s and piccolo snares.
Perhaps, but as he mentions, the analog clap is such a ubiquitous sound making clap stacks useful in every style of music
idk man the clap has been a staple sound since before even electronic claps were a thought.
Could not agree more.
@@nosfyhence why most beats with these sound like electronic type dilla beats… imo kind of one dimensional. I have a stack tho
@TylerHNothing I'd definitely agree that 95% of the beats heard sound the same about. But I would say there's an even more vast range of possibilities people haven't used yet. Especially in the studio the clapstack can turn into so many sounds it's insane. Whether tracking with fx or saucing it up post tracking!
Terry Bozzio was arguably the first to use stacks, at least as far back as Missing Persons in the early 80s - hit-hat cymbals inside Chinas, and Chinas on rides and crashes. I believe Dave Weckl's been using the small-China-on-large-crash stack since the 80s as well.
I came to them by way of Mike Portnoy, but that’s bc the old Bozzio video had gone out of rotation on the VCR at the store by then & I had no idea or in the pre-internet era of knowing what was going on on his kit. The chinas-in-Roto-frames, the Roto-hats, talk about unique timbres.
First I ever saw was Steve Gadd playing Mr Magic live with Grover Washington jr.
so basically acoustic drummers found an organic way to get electronic sounds through the cymbal makers?
Yep, that’s essentially it.
and it’s really cool😂🎉
At least for those of us who grew up in the mid 70s to mid 80s I'd say, Roto toms were almost a rite of passage. The inexpensive way to expand your kit and get those high / concert tom voices of the roundhouse kit players. I have to say I'm amazed they're actually still produced lol As for the hi-hat, although it probably was looked on as a fad initially, I would guess that the players of the day quickly realized that it could become an integral part of everybody's kit and sound, as well as a staple of function. Since it's coming up on its 100 year celebration I think it far long ago surpassed fad status (duh)... 👍🏻😗
I saw Yussef Dayes live a few weeks ago. I smiled when I saw a set of roto toms in his setup. He used them well.
To an extent you can thank classical music for rototoms stilling being around. Various composers have written for them over the decades - I've played some of those pieces (admittedly, on regular toms b/c I didn't have ready access to rototoms).
@@drdrums1 I'd never have guessed that..
I always thought roto toms had cool sound/tone, especially the big ones, 14, 16, 18 inches. I would love to have some…like a whole set of them. Unfortunately, all you can find are the small set of 3.
@mp4-27d3 Steve Weiss carries all sizes, from 6" to 18". They get pricey; the 18" will set you back $300.
Nothing wrong with musicians searching out new ways to express themselves. I think the real issue here is not is it a fad but how adaptable is it across the board. I really like the sound but it is a largish and inconveniently shaped object to haul around for a single sound, also expensive (unless you make your own). I think a sample pad would be a better investment. You get the clap effect and a whole lot more.
In the late 70’s I bought a synare so I could get the specific sound the Cars got on their records. It worked until it didn’t. I should have waited years until sample pads came along. The point is, things come and go, if it works for you, go for it. Doesn’t matter if it becomes mainstream. We are drummers after all, we didn’t exactly pick the most mainstream instrument.
Excellent video!
Always down for new textures to play with. I’m a big fan of the Left hand crosstick with the right hand flam behind it to create that delayed clap sort of sound. Money is also a factor and I think there are ways to create this sound without buying a new piece of gear
I dig this blend of history, comedic breaks and actual drum ideas to work on Nate, nice work!
First, as I gig in a town similar to New York, I gig more and more with just hi hats. Any other cymbal better be very important. :-)
Secondly: Nate, your playing has improved a lot lately! I can hear a better self mix, more “groove” (so consistency vs dynamics balance), and your subdivision ideas are more articulate and clear. Awesome to see your progress! I’ve been a fan of the channel for a long time, and now vs a few years ago is leaps and bounds better! Congrats!
Yeah, I’ve noticed it as well. In fact, I’m pretty sure I made a similar comment several months ago.
I’ve been increasingly interested in drum set history… this was a cool episode!
Im not a clap/smack stack fan but i absolutely love the two hole-y crashes stacked like a hi hat, like Benny Greb does. Trashy without being abrasive like chinas
Also I'm glad you featured II. What a beast! My new hero
As a non drummer, I really like smack stacks. Zackgrooves makes it sound really good
Up to 4 Bills for a new Meinl Byzance stack. Pass, but that's just me
I didn’t know the origins of this instrument before I learned. The reality is that the clap stack itself- designed to emulate a sampled clap and also specifically named ‘Clap Stack’- is a modern day invention spearheaded by Trevor Lawrence Jr and made by Istanbul. There was nothing like this invention before and it has since been copied by many major cymbal companies who didn’t come up with the concept themselves.
Trevor Lawrence Jr should be known by all drummers as the brains behind this innovation. He should have had a mention in this video in my opinion. There’s no excuse for not knowing who came up with the clap stack that is so new in existence, in this Information Age.
(disclaimer: I’ve never met the guy and am in Australia so I have no ties to him or Istanbul Agop cymbals.)
Clap stacks are simply there for gigs where you need a handclap sample but dont feel like dragging your sample pad out.
A Drum Kat is cheaper and easier to carry.
Yo straight up nailed it
I think the variety in stacks is fantastic and offers a lot of unique textures I can use to replicate a lot drum machine tones
Loved ‘to the drums Batman!’ Always great vids
Enjoyed the video, and this discussion. Thought provoking for sure.
Any thoughts on Bozzio or Portnoy's use of stacks back in the late 80's/early 90's? What about Billy Ward's early adoption of putting stuff on the snare/toms for tonal effects?
I have a theory that Mike Portnoy was responsible for making stacks a popular thing for prog metal drummers. Every djent/prog metal drummer nowadays uses stacks on their drum set.
For Portnoy, he did make it a more popular choice among progressive drummers. But as I said in another comment, they have been used for decades in various styles but especially prog, so it's only _this_ stack that's a fad -- not stacks in general.
@@WilmersondaSilva 👍👍👍👍 was what made me aware of them in prog, Bozzio not withstanding!!!!
Stacks have been around for a while - I think these are pretty well different in that they are a very particular sound. I think they'll stick in the particular genres they're mostly in. To me they feel like a physical instrument to make something very similar to the drum machine "clap" samples used in hip hop.
My stacks are basically just my old cracked cymbals 🤣🤣... It doesn't sound half bad TBH
I enjoyed how Mike Portnoy used them on the Scenes From A Memory record going way back ❤️
I love the sound of these, I doubt they'd be going away anytime soon
I think smack/clap stacks are a "fad" in that you won't see them as prominently the way we see drummers use them now. I don't think it's a niche thing like zilbels/ice bells/radia bells. What I mean by that/what I believe is cymbal manufacturers produced these bells thinking they would be a color/accent instrument for a certain type of drummer. However, after metalheads discovered they could use them as a "clang" where they would normally hit the ride of the bell it immediately became the go to bell for them. Few and far between drummer use them mounted in the way I think cymbal companies intended. I'm thinking Jeff "Tain" Watts, Gergo Borlai, and Billy Martin to name a few (and they don't even use them that often). Sure some drummers use it on a snare or tom as an effect, but again not a widespread thing. On the flipside, smack/clap stacks are used exactly the way they were intended. I just think it won't be a mainstay like a regular stack and we'll see less of them going forward. Used when that sound is needed. Maybe somewhere in between stacks and bells. If that makes sense. Speaking of stacks, the first time I heard one was Mike Portnoy, then later on John Theodore.
Love Jon Theodore. Mans insane. I've been listening to a shit ton of TMV's discography lately and his usage of stacks definitely reminds me of Portnoy - it's a sound I really like and utilize myself. Not a hi hat, not a ride bell, but something kinda like both of them.
@@Cobalt985 Totally. It initially reminded me of Portnoy too. At least in the way they both use stacks to accentuate specific parts and rhythms. They both do it in their own way. Jon Theodore is next level. A lot of those parts actually come from the demos Blake Fleming played on. I know he gets a bad wrap for his short stint in TMV after Theodore left. But, he's a phenomenal drummer too.
I did not expect to see a video of II from ST but im here for it
I think there's a bit more to be said for the whole origins of clap stacks and these associated grooves. A lot of it just comes from modern trap beats, which is also where the fast hi hat subdivisions and strict adherence to the back beat comes from, taking the classic drum machine sounds and emulating them on an acoustic set. A lot of the common patterns, particularly for snare accents, make a lot more sense in this context.
gotta love those Fred Armisen drum videos. (Especially his older ones before he was famous)
Mike Portnoy had an early version of this called Maxstax
99-early 2000's
Jon Theodore just piled up a "bunch of broken garbage" to get this effect on the early Mars Volta stuff.
I honestly love a cymbal with a ton of decay. Just gets out of the way immediately.
I remember drummers in the late 70's using "penny cymbals." Large ride cymbals with pennies taped to them to add length to the crash.
8:03 I remember first seeing a stack on Dave Weckl drum set back in the 80's. His was called a piggyback back then. I went looking for one at Rondo Music and was told that's what he was using.
The EFX Piggyback was a 12" cymbal. I don't recall any of their ads or posters with Weckl's setup ever mentioning he used it, although I suspect it was inspired by his stack. I don't remember anymore, but I think he used a 14" A on an 18" K dark crash, and he may have switched to the 14" K or Oriental when they were released in the 90s.
HOW TO MAKE A STACK THAT SOUNDS GOOD FOR 40$
1. get a small point hammer and sheet metal cutters
2. Go to home depot and purchase a sheet of sheet metal (price may vary depending on how large the sheet is, I got a 4ft by 5ft)
3. Use a compass or other measuring tool and a sharpie to make 3 circles on the sheet metal. Give room for error. I did 12inch, 10inch, 8inch
4. cut out these circles
5. find the middle of these circles, make a point, drill through with a large bit (you want to be able to fit them all together nicely)
6. Lightly hammer in indentions on each cymbal. You should be sparse, but have fun!
7. Now is the great part. Take each cymbal individually, and bend them by hand (WEAR GLOVES) to the desired C-shape.
8. Put on stand and enjoy! I'll have a vid up on my channel at some point with the results. I've already made it and it sounds very good, like an 80's clapp effect. Adding tamborines and ching rings/bells elevates the sound a ton! Hope y'all enjoyed!
Useful for covers on occasion. Used an e-pad for covering "Eyes Without a Face" which has a CLAP CLAP throughout the song
Love it ! Awesome!
I have a theory that Mike Portnoy was responsible for making stacks a popular thing for prog metal drummers. Every djent/prog metal drummer nowadays uses stacks on their drum set.
I have been interested in cymbal stacks since hearing Jon Theodore tearing one up with The Mars Volta 20 years ago. Everyone was asking him what it was, and it sounded so cool, and he said it was just some old, broken cymbals, so it wasn't directly reproducable.
Those ones also have muuuch more sustain. More like a china than a percussive clap. Thomas Pridgen did some tasty clap stack stuff with them live, like in Cygnus jams, idk if it was a clap stack technically but was more percussive. He didn’t just play dilla beats with it either
Agreed. The stuff on Frances was outstanding and innovative 👍👍👍
I’m kinda surprised you didn’t mention Terry Bozzio.
Michael cavanagh of king gizzard absolutely kills it with roto-toms, not a fad, just not many people who know how to use em
Just a slight correction or thought. Snare on 2&4 actually can be found pretty commonly on old big band recordings around the 30s. So it was a thing far before rock
I drilled holes in every broken cymbal I've ever had. And the ones that sounded the best I would stack on a stand. With felts or not. It ended up becoming 63 pounds, with stand. Sounded great. Then I took a few off and put them on a heavy duty hi hat stand. Became even better!!
I used "stacks" within the first year of my own drumming (which would be roughly 2002-2003) sometime. Using it to replace the snare or even augment it with a dry stack (no separation) was pretty common, and wet stacks (cymbals with slight separation, to get a shimmer similar to hi-hats with larger/heavier cymbals) are just a natural extension of the hi-hat anyway. Anyone calling this a fad has apparently just ignored music for the last couple off decades.
I have a cheap one that I made from a wuhan splash and a zildjian splash and they sound great for breakdowns and unique style beats
They'll stay niche but I think they'll stick around. Like most aux percussion for a drum set. Block, cowbel, regular stacks etc.
It's only if they are over used or get associated with a genre they'll run the risk of dating music and being a fad. Like concert toms, octobans, or roto toms.
The main thing holding them back is they don't fit in cymbal cases easy.
I have been putting my cymbals togethr in stacks for a while but its a permanant thing now. Its just another sound to play with. I do find the proper stacks a bit hand clappy but whatevs.
Have you thought about doing a video about jamie murray? An amazing drummer who i think has a great character in his playing. I bet he does something worth doing a video about.
i would have to inform you of jon theodore who used a stack of mangled metal in the mars volta in 2003
Random but it was allegedly a ferry ship drummer in New Orleans who invented the sock pedal. I remember reading Warren "Baby" Dodds biography and he mentioned that. The date woulda been somewhere between 1905-1925 from what I can remeber. Probably irrelevant but the more you know!
I´m not sure why it gets called a ´fad´ since clap sounds have been a staple of electronic drums since we had well, electronic drums at all so what, 40 years at least if not more?
Honestly I think physical clap stacks are probably going to not stick around very long, but as some one from a keyboardist/electronic music production background I find the idea of a physical emulation of a drum machine clap fascinating just on a visceral level but honestly just use a damn sample pad those clap stacks always seem like they'd be such a pain in the ass to have to transport to gigs to me. I don't think the sound is going any where soon as it's a staple in a lot of electronic dance music and electronic music in general and has definitely crossed over into more music styles but I'm not sure if clap stacks them selves are going to stick around for long.
I started playing a 12" splash inverted inside an inverted 18" china in 2001 after seeing Terry Bozzio. I pretty much have to have a stack on my set or it feels incomplete.
Not a fan of the stacks, but it does sound unique. I've tried sizzlers before and tambourines on hi hats. As far as the snare goes I tried this old 70s trick and that is put your wallet on your snare drum. You will get a amazing fat snare sound...
Interestingly that's the best I have heard you sound.
I love the sound of the Smack Stack, but I wish they would be louder. There wasn't any headroom left, when you played it in this video, right?
I mean...you can always hit it harder. Seems like Mike and Jharis make it work pretty well...
anyone know whos the cat on the horn at 3:36?
Trevor Lawrence JNR enters the chat 😂
Instagram post incoming
It would be nice that you mentioned Trevor Lawrence who is the inventor and originator of the clap stack and also it was suppose to be an acoustic version of the 808 clap sound by roland is where this came from ..... just saying
I kind of get the appeal. And sure it’s a cool effect. But you can get most of the same sound by playing the existing kit in a different way (probably).
If only someone would elevate this thing into versatile instrument (spoiler, I am at it:-P ).
The original hand clap sound is still used in modern productions.
So I think the analogue version has many rewards and a good life span ahead of it.
But it needs to be thought of as a snare replacement, a back beat impulse.
And thus, needs to be reachable with both hands, smaller, to fit into the kit better.
Louder, more high midrange, to cut through a normal beat better, and fit the production levels.
And give me an 808-like HiHat sound with it.
I've heard a lot of stacks and that sounds among the finest.
'Member the Earth Plates from big Z? There was a set of two. They were a tiny, rough hunk of ingot, flattened out and hung on a string. You could pinch them to do an open and closed muted thing. Like hitting a quarter with another quarter.
7:14 a wild Sleep Token appears
Very few things like this are a fad imo. They might go in and out of fashion, but drummers will always find new and innovative ways to use them. Take cowbells. Not overly fashionable right now (partially because of SNL 😂), but I use mine all the time, and when I play an interesting groove using it, I often get people coming up to me after the gig who say how much they loved the cowbell stuff and that they now really want one. Things come and go, but stacks are cool, and as long as people still enjoy them, they will stick around for a long time.
Also, analog fx stuff is great if you don’t want to lug around a sampler or you’ve got limited channels on the desk.
I was stacking in 1980!
Yes, and no. They make sound, therefore can be used a lot. But this things only exists because modern “pop” music uses electronic sounds that sound like this, therefore an acoustic version is needed. But once the 2020s trap-thingy goes away, these cymbals might aswell.
I have to say yes on this one but only in one aspect, drummers have been making stacks that sound like claps forever, and now there's a couple companies that managed to corner the market on a pre-made product that they can mark up so it costs over $400, when the reality is you just need to find and stack a couple of junky cymbals together and play with the tightness, I have a clap stack made from a b8 splash and a dented cymbal from a toy drum kit, and as far as accuracy goes, I would put it up against anything on the market without hesitation.
it's a fad. Like rototoms. Like Simmons drums. It will stay because it's popular enough, for the time being.
You can get a lot of different sounds out of most things on a kit, except for the stack. It's a one-trick-pony.
God, i love them though and you absolutely would catch me riding a subway with juat hats and a smack
It's worth noting that the Octapad wasn't "popular" at the GC Drum-Off; its use was literally required by contest rules. Roland, as a key sponsor of the event, negotiated to have it written in as a required part of contestants' solos, with scoring heavily weighted based on its usage.
Some folks could get through the first couple rounds just on drum chops alone, or by hitting it a couple times just to meet the requirement, but you could pretty much guarantee you wouldn't make it past the regional round if you didn't dedicate a fair portion of your solo to a beat centered around the Octapad.
It was this weird gatekeep-y thing that strongly favored people who could afford to own an $800 toy, basically just for Drum-Off. A toy that was hardly a requisite part of the type of gigs that most "amateur" drummers would be taking, at that.
(FWIW, I never once participated in Drum-Off myself, but worked the event for 5 years as a GC employee)
Ah. I knew something was up. Do you know the inside scoop as to why it was eventually ended?
This was a really well done, interesting video but I gotta disagree with your assessment of zil-bells specifically. They're still used constantly in metal and hardcore for that pre-slow riff ding, accents in blast beats, adding texture to complicated ride grooves, etc. Maybe I'm biased because i have 2 zil-bells and a pair of octobans on my home kit, but imo finding an enduring niche in extreme music isn't quite the same as disappearing completely.
6:02 that was some real hiphop shiet. Nice.
I think the brand-new clap stacks that companies like Sabian and Zildjian make will be a fad since they were designed to mimic the “organic” stacks that drummers were making with old, broken, and low-quality cymbals. I made the one I use from throwaways and facebook marketplace deals. Depending on who you ask, stacks made from the B20 alloy used for top-shelf cymbals do not sound as good as stacks made from trashy B8 or brass cymbals. I do think the clap stack and smack stack will stay since people buy them in imitation of their favorite drummers.
no, they are explicitly designed and marketed as a way for drummers to emulate drummachines clap samples, which are core to most of Electronic music, hip hop and pop sound. these stacks will stay as long as these genres are influential
Danbro Studios?
i dont think the clap sound is a fad but this iteration of it is
First I heard was Kenny Aronoff using zildjian trash hats (slightly wider china bottom, smaller splash on top) on smashing pumpkins Adore tour in I think 1998. Then i was introduced to dream theater and heard that familiar sound on mike portnoys kit on scenes from a memory 1999 - this time bigger splash/crash bottom, teeny china top. The rock circuit I played in the naughties - well lost drummers took their cracked cymbals and piled em up. That was probably because these broke fuckers couldn’t justify throwing out their minted cymbals. Some guys had 3 or cymbals piled up. I don’t think this is a fad at all. It’s been 20 something years growing (that I’ve been listening) and now it’s become a mainstay of the contemporary drum kit, and drumming vernacular.
I feel like people have been stacking cymbals for 10+ years. This doesn’t really feel like some new fad. The only difference is that now companies are making the stacks instead of people putting together old cymbals.
Don’t forget jp bouvet and the ankle bells on hihat
Mike Portnoy has done quite a few of those "fads", including having a signature set of stacks.
bring back rototoms, octobans, concert toms and all the bells and splashes
the zack grooves effect
I think the stack is as indispensable as the splash or a crash that isn’t also a ride
In all respect, credit for zil bel popularity should be credited to Tim Alexander before Carter Beauford.
czcams.com/video/1Uc-9iBGzYw/video.html
Steve Gadd was the first drummer I saw using a stack back in the late-70’s/early/80’s.
good video
The sale and marketing aspect makes it a fad, but cymbal stacking has been around for decades.
I’m gonna say no, they are not really a fad. The big difference between between clap stacks and say, roto toms, zil bells, and a cowbell on a rock kit, is that the clap stack is an answer to changes in the wider world of music production and arrangement. Hand claps and distorted snare sounds are just part of the lexicon of any music that’s produced in a DAW with programmed drums.
Yeah it’s a fad. Because they don’t fit in my cymbal case! Seems like a way to get rid of factory thirds
yes
I personally dont like the fad but i still want to know what its about
Time will tell how they stack against the competition
One thing I believe is a TRUE fad is not putting a felt and wingnut on top of your cymbals. Just a disaster waiting to happen
At one point, matched grip was a "fad."
i dont think a fad but kinda trend due to the changes of a lot of music.....i remember stacking 20 yeays ago...back then it was a alternate ride option.....a 14 k mini china on a 16 A medium crash....destroy the crowd and your sticks haha
I’m about to grab me a fad stack!
Music is unlimited, if it sounds food whatever the means, thats it
Yea they are but it’s a good one
...I still have my Zil-bel
Smash that like button!
Ya I got a sparklets bottle on my set. That’s what drummers doo
I guess they're cheaper than buying an SPDSX
Yes. 100% gimmick/fad. It I do agree with another post: these (smack stacks) will unequivocally date music…
I think Meinl cymbals in general are a fad. 😆 Jk, if I wasn't already a Sabian guy, I'd definitely be a Meinl guy.
I personally never liked clap sounds (I guess 90s dance music killed it for me).