RadioMaster Bandit: 8x the range of 2.4 GHz, but at what cost?
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
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00:00:00 - Is it time to switch to 900 MHz ELRS?
00:01:26 - Radiomaster Bandit and Emax Aeris modules
00:02:27 - 900 MHz also includes 868 MHz
00:03:07 - 900 MHz has more range and penetration
00:04:55 - 900 MHz has much bigger antennas
00:07:27 - What's a Moxon antenna anyway?
00:08:41 - ELRS 900 MHz has higher latency
00:10:41 - ELRS Hz is better than CRSF Hz
00:11:58 - 900 MHz is worse for racing and crowded environments
00:13:34 - Output power comparison
The weird relationship between range and output power
• The weird relationship...
00:14:40 - What's the difference between the Micro, Nano, and Full Size module
How to install Crossfire (and ELRS) on Futaba: bit.ly/3NBSF8l
How to install Crossfire (and ELRS) on Spektrum DX9: bit.ly/3GTasEn
Higher-tier Spektrum radios have a built in serial port that can be used without physically modifying the radio.
00:17:29 - Radiomaster modules can act as high-powered telemetry receivers
My PixHawk build, using the "Syk" radios that will soon be obsolete (right?) - • FPV pilot tries Pixhaw...
00:20:24 - Output power testing
00:22:36 - Have I earned your support yet?
00:24:03 - Why 900 MHz gives 4x to 8x the range
00:29:02 - How dare I not range test this
My stomach flipped when you tossed that radio. Damnit Bardwell. 😆
JB does NOT respect that DX-6, lol
Haha, that was a bloody awesome toss.
Awesome
That remote is garbage
His named Bardwell? Are you serious? He looks like hes 4 feet tall.
Some comments from the perspective of someone who has taken crossfire out to 121km on a 1.3kg FPV plane:
1) 900 MHz and 1.3ghz analog (still #1 for pure long range) really mess with each other. I run additional notch filters on the video receiver - which already have good filtration to begin with (rmrc brand). On top of that I relay my RC link and video link so I can have each on their own tripod spaced out by 20-100 meters. Even still I see the blips of 900 MHz interference in my video at extreme range. On the RC receiving end of things - I run Matek 1.3g vtx with selectable output power. I avoid the highest power setting when possible (800 mW) because in some cases you can watch SNR db drop on the RX link with increased video output power. This probably has more to do with fresnel zone interference which impacts both video and RC link, placing both on the edge of failure to begin with. Still, it isn’t fun to clear up static with increased vtx output - only to instantly
Send your RC link into failsafe….
2) Having the RC transmitter on a tripod - wirelessly linked to your transmitter is fantastic for long flights. It could in theory be done in the opposite order but you can run say…. Tracer on your radio. Then have the tx pad of your tracer receiver wired to the RX wire of the CRSF input on your 900mhz module. This obviously adds latency and you will never have telemetry - but for long range FPV - it’s fine. Then you don’t have to care how you hold the radio - you can go piss behind a sand dune with your goggles on your forehead, holding the radio by your side…. Just saying….
3) As to how 1.3ghz video and 2.4 ghz RC play together? Idk.. never tried it - but I want to. As you pointed out, antenna size is massively different between 900 and 2.4. I only use a shapeshifter for my 900 long range setup - so not very directional…. For that same size - I could run a 9-12 db yagi on a 2.4 ghz module. This really would help close the range gap between the two frequencies. No free lunch of course - as the high gain yagi is very directional - but so is my
Long range flying… I know what course I will fly within a few degrees days before I fly it - because I plan it that way. I set up my tripods with a compass - directional isn’t an issue for me. Maybe for others it is…. Idk…
Cheers and thanks for the good vids as always.
The noise that transmitter made hitting the ground hurt me inside lol. Great video keep it up JB
I'm getting into long range fpv with a new airplane that just built and this video is exactly what I needed to build the set up I want.
I love your extensive and clear videos on FPV topics! Thx again!
Thank you for putting so much effort into these videos JB! I am disgusted by the handcuffs these unnecessary regulations have placed on your livelihood. Especially given this hobby's impeccable record of safe flight. This was very informative, and I appreciate it. Take care, and keep up the good work.
Lots of people vote for democrats and then complain when they get exactly what they voted for: bigger, more powerful and oppressive central government and less freedom.
The bizarre thing is that the FAA seems to be fine with the idea of autonomous delivery drones flying without any kind of visual observer.
You're a celebrity in my book. Thank you for being super intelligent and an amazing teacher! Kudos! 🏆
Been waiting for this!
Thank you so much for preparing such an informative video.
❤Exellent explanation of feeling the bass, the low frequency❤
I don’t even build drones yet but once I do/ have the funds I will ! Thank you for all the information I love the videos and watch them all the time !! Keep up the stellar work ! Happy holidays 🤙🏼🎉🎄🎊🎁
Great Video as Always.
Looking to get into the hobby and this video has helped me decide on a decent starter setup. Tx16s with elrs, fatshark scout, skyzone M5, and whatever small cheap Kwad I want to bounce off the walls and learn with. And with the Tx16s I can later upgrade the ag01 gimbals and can upgrade the fatshark scout with rapid fire. Seems a good way to start and not have to upgrade for quite some time and still have a decent rig. And I’ve figured out I’m probably gonna own several quads and fixed wing fpv craft. Super cool that the radiomaster ranger and bandit can be turned into Rx mode. Thanks for the great video!
Great video once again 🙃
Fantastic review, Joshua! Thanks!!! 😃
If you're doing FPV with rc cars perhaps 900mhz may be a better choice. But I don't know, it depends a lot...
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
And happy holidays!
ELRS 4life boyee!! ❤😂
Sometimes(long-range quad) antennas are a plus. Love your content
Good video Joshua. For the viewers and readers, if you got a radio link that works for you and how you fly, you don't have to change. There is no FOMO here. I'm a confident CRSF flyer and mostly do mountain crusing. But I confess, the huge antenna (900Mhz) is a hassle. Monst of my quads use the L-shaped style. Some the horizontal style (but I prefare the L-shape cause I can avoid the nulls. If it's working, don't try to fix it.
that hand toss with the controller... funny af
For most people it seems like the 2.4 GHz will have more range than they will ever need anyway, even at the 100 mW limit in the UK and EU, it seems the main need to go to 900 MHz is if you fly extremely long range, 10s of kilometres or more (even though the 2.4 GHz ELRS can apparently reach into the low 10s of kilometres) but like you mentioned that is illegal in most places.
It would probably be a lot more useful once it can be used with fully autonomous drones but again flying those long range is likely illegal.
In a lot of cases pilots are already breaking the rules on LOS and transmission power, pushing for 10s to 100s of kilometres of range just seems like a way to definitely get noticed and caught out. It is one thing to fly behind some trees or a building or to fly FPV without a spotter, it is another thing entirely to be flying 10s of kilometres away from you. If your drone can still receive signals and send telemetry then anyone else in at least that range of you or the drone can pick up those signals too and the higher power you transmit at the more likely you are to interfere with others and hence the more likely you are to get caught. If your drone is 30 km away and sending telemetry then anyone else within 30 km of you or the drone could receive those signals too, ignoring obstacles. I know they probably won’t be able to decode or interfere with your signals but if it causes disruption then it could even lead to stricter laws. As is the current advice anyway, keep it away from others where possible or keep it legal. Also very long range drones are large or fixed wing and are therefore easier to spot.
The 2.4 GHz advantages over 900 MHz are probably enough reason for most people to stick to 2.4 GHz, the lower latency, higher bandwidth, smaller antennas, etc.
It would be interesting how the range and power of ELRS (both 900 MHz and 2.4 GHz) compares to the range of DJI drones or air units with controllers and which is best for penetration.
They have a "Long Range Competition" site on the ELRS website. The record for 2.4GHz is 40,6Km @ 25mW. So at 100mW you could get over 80Km range (4x the transmit power = double the range). I can't imagine that any country which limits your transmit power to 100mW does legally allow you to fly such distances.
After failsafing over a tree on 2.4ghz, I went to Crossfire & never failsafed again. Then I went to ELRS 915mhz because what I care most about is not losing an expensive quad. I don't care about the antenna size. They are spring steel cable and the props can't seem to chop the antennas up at all. The insulation gets chopped up, but not the antenna.
So far , 2.4 Ghz has not let me down. Even at 17 Km from home . Just a drop of LQ to 80% (500mW - 50hz)
How are you guys getting such phenomenal range from drones? I'm assuming you're doing FPV? Are you just using all patch antennas? Give me your secrets man! 🤣
@@ScottDobbs07 Yes , FPV . Only two helical . 17Km is history . Most recent record is 20Km
@@diverFPV how are you getting a video connection that far? let alone the radio connection
@@Tydud3 If you have high gain directional antennas and you avoid to interfere with the first fresnel zone , it's doable
Thanks for sharing all the great information.
Hahah the spectrum toss caught me off guard
yes the symmetrical telemetry and native mavlink support is gonna be a gamechanger for long-range
The boxer is a perfect one!
If you're interested why lower frequency have better range google "Friis transmission equation" (look at images where Pr = ...). It basically says that received power is proportional to wavelength squared, aka if you lower frequency by 2x the received power increases by 4x (if I understood it correctly)
man...the bounce on that radio! haha
I fly with my buddy who has TBS crossfire and I regularly match or exceed his range. We fly in the hills and end up behind obstacles that requires serious penetration. I use ELRS 2.4ghz @ 500hz outputting at 500mw which is about as bad for long range as you can set it... I'm totally blown away with ELRS and the fact that the gear costs les than half
tbs are greedy
Just to test the difference regarding both systems you do not need to fligh, just do a ground test with your car!
Just an idea!
I think JB tried everything. That's why he is so confident about 915 is x8 thd range of 2.4. Just to be on the legal side need to be done this way. In fhis country is important not what you do, but what you say.
Imma still rock the ELRS R9m
This is awesome. The range-vs-wattage-vs-frequency approximation testing at the end were really cool, however I am not so much interested flying long range... My interest with a low frequency system is penetration in obstacle heavy environments (be it trees and vegetation or walls buildings, etc). If this test could be performed with signal PENETRATION in mind, it would answer more questions for my use case. Regardless, awesome video and cool to know where upcoming tech is headed.
Penetration and range are the same thing. For more on that: czcams.com/video/nb0a9YORAks/video.html
Seems like a good step to get more heli and airplane guys into drones. They generally use high end radios.
I'm really grateful you take the time to improve the knowledge in our hobby. One would wish that they information about the futaba radios was a bit more thorough... I mean I can make head of tails!! when I go to the Futaba downloads page the label 14 Mz.. and try to download the latest update it literally downloads a 12Mz and that ain't compatible with my equipment!
I have been using 868 since I started using ELRS good knows how long ago. First on a modded FRSKY R9 and tnow on the BETA FPV UNIT. I usually fly rate 200. Its super redundant now. Tested up to 4 km range (limited mostly by DJI Air Unit 1 modded and can say its really now better them CRFS.
Ukrainian army is already adapting this as a replace of crossfire. Thank you for update that make easier to help them with troubleshooting🎉
All the cons you outlined is a pro to me, then again i’m not really a quad pilot.
I like my quality Crossfire 868 link....That moulded 915 mhz Moxon would be good as a boat paddle...A Dipole is more practical unless you want ultimate directional range from the Moxon.... IMO...😳😏🇬🇧
I wish they had a 915Mhz PWM receiver for the MT12, although only the nano module will fit the MT12.
915mhz for life
I just recently switched to ExpressLRS 2.4, and yeah the 900mhz goes further, but like you said, I don’t see a way of doing that legally. But I guess it would be pretty cool to have to capability to do so.
Awesome for ELRS.
Got to try that 500mw telemetry
CaptnBry said Bandit is not in ELRS release yet. So you cannot update the TX and RX just yet. 2000mw settings are indeed in the hardware.html page on the Bandit although I have not tested it.
There was no pillow or couch behind him after that toss hahaha!
been running the big boi ranger, you better believe i'm picking up the big boi bandit lol
Crossfire for Life!!!!...... Until something better comes out from TBS.
The Moxon antenna is a yagi with a reflector and folded elements. They must pass the feed line thru to the driven element in the front. I was wanting a short yagi but this will do. Damn I learned something didn't I.
Oh I forgot. The range test. Reverse it. Put the craft on a test stand and take a drive with the transmitter.
900mhz video was useless in my area with tons of interference. This was long ago and I had to switch to 1.3ghz I remember. It worked fine. Makes me wonder if 900mhz for control would work here. Seems 1.3 ghz would be better that 2.4 ghz also.
My first thought was Ola Englund when he was playing guitar in a anechoic chamber 😂. Sound waves are interesting
great video as always! I was wondering if the full module has the 2w hack like the ranger. Could you please verify?
That poor radio. His name was Steve. He was my best friend. RIP Steve.
it is important to note that elrs lacks encryption that has crossfire, its important for some applications btw
(Maybe that's why it requires more bitrate?)
Crossfire requires more bitrate even if you're not using encryption. The protocol is just "fatter" and more full featured.
Thanks JB ! We need more new, powerful and reliable LR systems here in Ukraine to fight with russia invaders !@@JoshuaBardwell
Some people in Ukraine might care about that and it's likely the only reason tbs added it but, even the Russian military isn't known to hijack elrs, it's no worry to an average fpv pilot.
Joshua - build a 2.4Ghz quad and put a 900Mhz receiver on it controlling a strobe light
Get a friend in his car to drive his 60km (or whatever you calculate it)
Every so often he can get out of his car, fly the quad VLOS to a reasonable altitude and see if your 900Mhz transmitter at home can still control the strobe
First USA legal range test?
GTrick50 used uLRS to fly 50 miles (80km) straight out over the ocean, and back for 100 miles trip, in a 4 hour flight with a wing wing z84, 4s-7000 18650 pack, and it was fpv. This was a few years ago, he may have broken his record now.
Opps, he is called gTrick90
I long range my fixed wing with ExpressLRS 2.4G and without even putting much thought into how it's set up and running an HM EP1 receiver that isn't even diversity, I get more range than my 4800mah battery can handle and it doesn't even go above 100mw TX while doing almost 30km. I don't know why anyone whines about 2.4 not having enough range.
There’s a difference between range and penetration, ELRS 2.4 offers great range LOS, but 900mhz gives much better penetration through obstacles even at long range.
@@10fantic Yes. This is why I did not use the word penetration in my comment.
What's the point with 900MHz for FPV, when regular ELRS goes twice the distance of any digital video system.
For a range test on 900mhz, put the receiver in your car and drive to find the range.(or leave the receiver at home and take the transmitter to see the range of telemetry).
I had elrs 900 way back when. I turned my r9 system to elrs.
Great info, as always!
I'd be curious if your results change if you moved the devices further or closer - in case one was benefitting from standing waves (ie at a node vs anti-node)
You should find a nice open road and stick a receiver on your car roof and range test
I'm running Crossfire on my builds so far because it's more integrated aswell as the fact that I got a module included with my TX16S, also the price being higher doesn't matter much to me as I only have one build so far that needs such a system (coming from planes all my stuff is on Spektrum), but as I get more and more into FPV it might be worth trying out ELRS sometime!
Elrs puts crossfire to shame. Packet rates are 2-3 times faster
@@carbonEYE007 I haven't had any issue with crossfire so far, but ELRS is definitely the way forward for RC protocols.
From the way you described it I assume that the moxon antenna is basically an enclosed beam antenna
Thanks, Mr Bardwell, this has kept me wondering for a while (900Mhz vs 2.4Ghz). What should we do with our old 40Mhz gear? The submarine-modellers still use it as well as some antique modellers... Perhaps give it to them. By the way... for ELRS I will probably stick to 150Hz Packet Rate, still feels very good and responsive.
There are folks playing with 144MHz ELRS, that'd probably work well for the submarine folks.
The industrial design of the Bandit is excellent compared with the large and dorky Ranger Nano module. When will they release a new version of the Ranger?
Also have you seen the New Jumper T-20S GEMINI - Long Range ELRS Radio - 2 Transmitters in 1 radio.
Even if you did a range test by driving, it would still require hours of driving to see the end of your range test. We're seeing a potential of nearly 500 miles with good line of sight. That's truly bananas!
curve of the earth has gotta play into that at some point unless it bounces off the ionosphere
lol he chucked the radio
Maybe you can daisy-chain with the crsf port to build a repeater: transmitter 1 - after 30km a receiver + bandit transmitter with crsf input - plane flies > 60 km
Elrs has went 100km on 2.4ghz. The only reason for a relay is flying beyond line of site like the other side of a mountain.
Do inverted long-range testing. Have your quadcopter(s) at a fixed location with spotters you're in communication with and you ride in an aircraft in a pattern of arcs radiating away from the quadcopter flying location. You may need to work with the pilot of the aircraft on authorizations, but this may not be too big a deal.
"ride in an aircraft" is an expensive start to a simple test when we already know the range is bonkers.
Joshua, Mavlink is a pretty verbose protocol; it doesn't use compression and always resends all the data (no incremental updates). So, it will be pretty challenging to make it work over 900MHz with its bandwidth limitations. 2.4G ELRS is a much more suitable candidate for a Mavlink bridge.
The SIK radios (and RFD900x etc) already do bidirectional telemetry on 900 MHz, so it definitely is possible and works very well.
Though it still would be great if 2.4G ELRS could support bidirectional mavlink with the RC. Eg something like ELRS airport, but with RC still available. You usually don't need as much uplink bandwidth for mavlink anyway, so taking some of it out to use for RC would be fine.
@@Vousie ELRS dev are working on this, mavlink-rc branch, they have tested it up to 100km.
@@lightningfpv9012 I know. But I'm pretty sure that's a rather low data rate. And it's just a dev branch. My reply was to OP who said 900 MHz isn't good for this because of bandwidth limitations: That's not exactly true, given that the SIK radios have been doing this at 900 MHz for many years.
doing mavlink over sik and crsf for awhile now.
still more likely to go 1w from my current .25w rather than 900kh just because of the antennae. not such a big deal on 7 and 5 inch quads, but micros not really gonna like the big antenna
I ll stick to Crossfire... It works and I m oldshool 🤷🏻♂️
900 megs is also attenuated lower in buildings means goes better trough a wall
Oh great I bought all 2.4 lol but I still use crsf religiously
JB, could fly up to 10 K like Dji / Autel drones advertise range distance and still give us an example of 900 Ghz versus 2.4 Ghz in Line of Sight flight test? 🤔
Why not build it into that rc car and see how far you can drive it? Should be fun. … do you think they’ll do a flavor of Gemini that does both 900/2.4? Switching to 900 when 2.4 isn’t enough anymore?
there are wufi boosters available..but one on the quad and you have 1w both ways
Nope! Still going to use my Crossfire. When ELRS gets a simple bind button I’ll consider switching. My .02
the way I understand the relationship between power and range is to imagine a sphere. The volume of the sphere is the total output power, the radius of the sphere is the range (from centre point to any point on the surface of the sphere).
for example the radius of a sphere with a volume of 10 is 1.34
double the volume to 20 and the radius only increases to 1.68
its not the perfect math for this, but it's a good way to picture in your mind that doubling the power doesn't double the range.
Unless you have directional antennas?
That's the correct derivation of the inverse square law, yes. The surface area of the spherical expanding wavefront grows as the square of the radius.
Directional antenna are still subject to the inverse square law.
Haha that's about the range I expected from spektrum
I don't know...Personally I prefer huge, flat antennas because sometimes, while flying long range, I work up a mighty powerful hunger. The moxon gives me a place to set my Subway sandwich while flying that's away from the dirt. Soooo... yeah.
Do a car long range test 😊
Don't worry guys he has RTL function on that radio
Is the 900MHz band less occupied than the 2.4Ghz band? I'd assume that would result in better SNR and helps range.
Why dont they have transceivers that can switch between the two frequencies? FM (frequency modulation) radios?
I have a question about a transmission system for my large drone. Could you possibly help me. I'm looking for options.
Sell me that spektrum transmitter. Don't tossed like that. Kkkkkk Will be a good use for teaching kids in my club
Spectrum is called siniestrum in my club
Is there a chance to use that Emax modul as a receiver and thus creating 2W symmetrical link?
4:34 that's like a canoe paddle
Hi, I'm new to your channel and also the drone hobby. Your channel is a great information source, I've just subscribed. I have a question that you may be able to answer for me regarding the Radiomaster Boxer. If I bought a RadioMaster Boxer Elrs in FCC, is it possible to change FCC to LBT? or vice versa? I found out a bit late about the European reg's.
cheers M.
yes you can change it during flashing elrs
@@FunBitesTV Great! Thanks for the answer. Much appreciated.
72mhz for life :)
Yup. This will now be the definitive link I post when a Spektrum fan boi starts going off on the socials :)
Good stuff. But I think I won't be switching from crossfire until ELRS makes a FOTA ecosystem that's as easy as the TBS Agent GUI. It's hard enough even with TBS to keep firmwares updated across the fleet. I can't imagine having 29 different ELRS firmwares in play.
Funny. It's in the works actually.
Very interesting.
I guess though your video link will be much worse so I think my 50Hz 2.4 GHZ 250mW is more than enough .
I just baught runcam wasp and using dji v2 and RC2 but its doesn't work hahaha . does any one knows when the fix its coming or i buy new controller?
IS THIS GOING TO INTERFERE WITH HDZERO THE WAY CROSSFIRE DOES (GOGGLES REBOOT ISSUE)?
Csrf was way worse for me in a dense urban environment than ELRS 2.4. I'm curious if it was the microwave transmitters interference but I switched to 2.4 and the only time my radio link is worse than video is when I forgot to take my tx off 25mw. 900 is beneficial to only very serious long range, like people who buy dragon link
900mhz is also superior in super low flying, especially at range.
What is funny is I got the goggles x and I am more concerned of its range limitations because I noticed the bars drop really fast only at 150 ft out and I have no idea what this means so I can’t fly long range. This results in lost sales because people like me feel limited by the video signal.
Walksnail has been out 50kms....You need to learn about your purchase...😳🙄🇬🇧
@@EnglishTurbines when I fly, there are three or four signal bars in the bottom, right hand corner of the screen and they go blank and then I turn around because I’m afraid to test out whether they will return since it will be hard to retrieve my quad where I’m flying - I’m not sure what other cues to review to see if the link quality is still there
Do both the micro and nano aeris link 900 modules go to 2w?