If Starfleet Loses, the Borg Win (Dominion War Alternate History)
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If anyone needs a good image... The big scary dominion moment is when they destroy a galaxy class starship. Our big scary moment with the Borg was them destroying an ENTIRE FLEET with one ship at Wolf 359. I don't think there's any doubt who wins between the Borg and Dominion.
You're absolutely right about that, the Dominion would wipe out the Borg! But if anyone is still too dumb to understand this. Every time the Borg made in assault on the Federation they were defeated solely by the Federation. Janeway herself took out a Borg Queen and her whole hive. The Dominion on the other hand, would have destroyed the Federation and taken over the whole Alpha quadrant, if it was not for the interference of the divine beings known as The Wormhole Alien's or the Prophets.
@@oblongbox5110 Forget about what Janeway did to the Borg. It was kind of cheating. The scale of power they generally wielded as a threat was significantly more powerful than anything the Dominion ever threw at the Federation. Only reason they ever defeated the Borg was because the Borg never actually threw their full power at Starfleet.
@@captzachevil Picard says hello. No, the Borg are boring and not as powerful as the fans think they are.
Well do we talk abaut real war ? Borg send one cube at time but when they see danger for themself they can send 10-100 meyby even 1000 cubes at one time. Borg dominium war end like dominium destroy club after cube and in the end dominium lose, where federation is more like test them but borgs cant see federation as danger bcs a pacyfism and finaly borg fail in moral war and be borg in future turn into another federation ally.
@@michelletackett9489well they are just they not so intresting abaut alpha now, and probady picard new borgs are time paradox and true borg empire still reapiar after voyager gift.
Has no one considered that Janeway is a loose cannon in this scenario?
Imagine if Starfleet sent her one final "Don't come home! Earth is doomed! Stay out there! Stay free!" type of message.
What crazy hijinks might Voyager have gotten up to?
Clearly she would have warped spaced time and had a child with all the Q to convince them to help her change the laws of the universe to return and defeat the Dominion single handedly...
@@Jake-cm9jj sounds about right
@@Jake-cm9jj If Janeway did anything less I would be disappointed lol
Warship voyager......
She kill and fear, the fear itself
Poor dominium not only lose after win aginst federation, they fail as empire xd
I believe the Borg would utilize the modified nanoprobes that Voyager developed to fight species 8472 to attack the founders.
😳😅🤣🤣🤣 interdimentional probes? Founders are done.
For as much space the dominion owns in the gamma quadrant I would have to assume that they have encountered the borg before. The borg have all kinds of ships buzzing around the gamma quadrant, and we learn this in episodes on voyager.
My point is i wouldn't be surprised if the dominion has established a decent defense against the borg. They have been around for such a long time in space I just have a hard time believing they have never encountered one another. Especially with how well the founders are at infiltration and sabatoge. That has always been the borgs main weakness. Their blinders for small teams of sabatours that always beam onto their ships.
I’ve often suspected they’re immune to nanoprobes, given they can alter their cells while they’re trying to be probed. None of the other Borg hardware would stick, certainly, so I guess it really is solely a matter of whether nanoprobes take control of them or not.
@@3rdreichball525well abaut borg fly to Earth it just a Signal send by borgs from First ontact in old earth... I think they not fly normal outside they space but alos they space is on many wolrd space as well. Meyby they just not find dominium and dominium alos do not fly normal outside they space just slowly grow
I agree - not a chance for the Dominion fighting the Borg.
They got polaron weapons, tractorbeam resistance and willingness to ram as initial advantages - but the borg will adapt.
The initial phaser barrage by the Enterprise D put Kilometer sized craters into the Borg Cube. But once the Borg adapted, they were shooting Blanks.
How do they adapt to ramming...in every scene where this occurs like in DS9 episode one the Borg get hit by a destroyed Excelsior and it does significant damage to one of its sides. I am not saying the Dominion wins but this adapting to ramming idea is kind of out there imho.
@@joerussell9574 Overcome tractor resistance. Push away.
Overcome Shields. Disable engines.
Modify shields to be more resistant to ramming dominos Ships kinetic Profile.
@@christopherg2347 While true still ramming while going to warp(sorry should have been more clear) no matter what is going to cause severe damage I would think. Applied engineering can only go so far I would think.
@@joerussell9574 Tractor beams stopped the Stargazer trying to pull a combat micro warp. And those were weak federation tractor beams.
And the Borg have tech to disrupt warp fields too.
If they don't simply dodge.
So "warp ramming" still means nothing against the Borg.
@@christopherg2347 Oh yeah I forgot about that. The Dominion do have a different type of shield system as DS9 tried to lock on in one episode so I guess it depends when and how much they assimilate the tech. The Borg Zerg rushing any corporeal civilization they will probably win.
Great video! Really if Star Trek had the Borg act with full force, they really are the one of the scariest creatures in science fiction. An army of hive minded tech zombies that relentlessly pursue and absorb anything they find interesting, with a defense that makes them nearly invincible to attacks shortly after being hit by it. They just see their enemies as potential drones.
Well said. When I think about it though, I don't think the Borg actually see anything with any kind of perspective at all. I think they only see their immediate objective.
Also that its well known they carry ridiculous firepower too. An what they cant assimilate they love to destroy. An we dont know how Dominion shields an weapon would fare against the Borg. I think NOT too well.
Fleet of 500 or 600 Alpha Quad ships.. Depends on the types an point in series we've seen BUT 500 or 600 BORG... Thats an insane amount of new Borg an/or dead Dominion
They DID act in full force in the novels, specifically the Destiny trilogy. Following Voyager's last act in the Delta Quadrant, the Borg decide, and I quote "You will be annihilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness have become irrelevant. Resistance is futile ... but welcome." About a year later, a Borg fleet of 7000 ships invaded, with representatives from not only Starfleet, but the Klingons, Ferengi, Talarians and Imperial Romulan State, Cardassians, Gorn and Breen facing them. The Borg EASILY blasted right through the fleet and are only stopped due to the intervention of a more powerful race created in the novels.
if this alternate scenario were a tv show it would be Star Trek Game of Thrones
Perhaps a better version of GoT not influenced by current trends
@@Excalibur01 true
@@justiceag7753 and I would love it!
there are lots of canon inconsistencies. I'd love a restart for Star Trek, a long the thematic lines of DS9. The modern/Discovery and Kelvin timeline (and, perhaps to some extent, the Mirror Universe episodes) already show some precedent for fresh, clean slates. I'd love it if this was done. Keeping the 'old look' of Star Trek; the multi-season spanning narratives; the various series slight overlapping; and a bit more DS9 (to GoT) doom and gloom. And, if possible, with a bit more alien-looking aliens, not just forehead ridges.
Though...that's basically just a different franchise, I think. But I'd love that. Just as I love a 'The Orville'-style. I just don't really like self-contradictory and thematic clashes within a cinematic universe.
@@daddyleon that sounds interesting but I still want the Federation to win
@@justiceag7753 Sure! But what if it also loses some, then regains some? That + those big character deaths might make it feel a lot more real/high-stakes and unpredictive.
I think there is about a 0% chance the Dominion would take the Borg threat lightly.
They did most everything else
@@LoreReloaded Despite what any Vorta or Jem'Hadar may claim the founders were extremely hands on with the solids, almost obsessively so. They sent changelings into the heart of every known potential enemy long before they were at war. For example they had 6 just on earth, at least one in the Tal Shair, at least one in the Klingon command structure. These are just a few that either revealed themselves or were exposed.
@@Bitchslapper316 i agree... The female changeling often used dismissive rhetoric but her actions showed that they were in fact deeply concerned with the affairs of solids and quite ambitious conquerors. Perhaps they wanted to portray themselves that way because in reality they were more like solids than they would like to admit.
Nah I think that the Tholian assembly have this one...
I think that they would see how dire things had become in the galaxy, whip out some of that multiversal tech they've been developing in secret since 2268 then figuratively hit the Dominion and the Borg over the head with an interdimensional steel chair, forcing a "no contest"
I like this idea
@@DoremiFasolatido1979 if the borg did that there would be no one to protect them from the uncompromising stowic bad asses and disillusioned former starfleet officers that comprise the ranks of the nyberrite alliance...
Besides when dealing with the amount of unknowns in this situation both the borgs capacity to respond and the tholean assembly's susceptabily to a borg response is entirely Speculative . I.e the tholians could have a tech tech countermeasure to any subspace multispacial response a heavily depleted borg collective could be capable of enacting. or if the tholians acted in secret the borg would not know against who to retaliate.
For example if the tholians act early in lores scinario, their initial offensive action could be to collapse all borg transwarp conduits and do it in a way not traceable back them. the borg would be left scratching their collective assets with their assimilation tubials stuck in the delta quadrant unable to attack the dominion not knowing that the tholians were even involved.
I think this underestimates both the diversity and development capabilities of the Dominion; just because warriors and diplomats got all the on-screen time in the series (after merchants briefly were seen early on) doesn't mean the Dominion should be seen as a static element. It's likely their empire was vibrant, innovative, and more than capable of rising to the threat.
I totally agree with this. Dominion would have won the war if prophets didn't intervene and have closed the wormhole. So Dominion is more than meets the eye. They have endured 2000 years.
The Dominion are overated. The borg didn't need the help of other factions
@@Milan_1389 Weyoun said 10000 years I think one episode.
@@mikewilliams9069 the Borg are overrated
They solved their ketracel and ship building issues very quickly, in terms of industrial and biochemical research, they might outdo the Borg by a wide margin
Of course the real reason why Dominion lost is because wormhole aliens made sure that they do.
"Leave our children ALONE!" (Slams the door shut)
“You call yourself gods! Then BE gods!!!!”
What a great line.
Yes and powerful aliens forced the Federation and Klingons into peace in TOS. There is a precedent.
Or Federation Diplomacy did.
That's not really the case. Yes, it's true that the Prophets wiping out Dominion forces was a variable that put victory on the Allied side, and if you change that, you could change the outcome to Dominion victory, but if we're allowed to do that then you could change other variables and reproduce that same Allied victory.
The Klingons, for instance, might have arrived much sooner and in greater force for Operation Return, or the Romulans might have entered the war earlier and similarly reinforced that action, and they might well have reached DS9 and the minefield well, well before it was detonated.
Or the Cardassian rebellion might have taken place much sooner and resulted in a surprise capture from the rear of Terok Nor/DS9, again preventing the Dominion from detonating the minefield and reinforcing the Alpha quadrant.
So you could say the Dominion "only" lost because of the Prophets, but you could just as easily say they they'd have "only" won because of Romulan complacency, or poor strategic focus by the Klingons, or the foolishness of the Cardassians to sign a "deal with the devil". In truth, there were a lot of variables in play, and they could have worked out to produce victory for either side. What if the Klingon/Cardassian war never happened and wildly changed the entire situation, or the Breen saw through the Dominion and fought against them, or the highly xenophobic and powerful Tholians realized that a new power was invading that was not going to leave them alone and launched an assault of their own?
Neither side "only" won or lost due to a single variable here.
Simply put.... the dominion wouldn't stand a chance against the borg
The Dominion would be so stretched out effectively having to control half the damn galaxy that the Borg could ASSIMILATE the broken up governments peacemeal.
1) borg would neutralize Jem'hadar easily by targeting their strategic drug manufacture and transport networks, as starfleet did
2) they would probably develop the morphogenic virus to counter the founders, though they may not have a good opportunity to unleash it, the inability to assimilate the founders would require nothing short of complete destruction
3) the borg could simultaneously carry out many many offensives that would stretch the dominion too far
4) finally, the dominion would probably want to retreat to the gamma quad, but the borg would just eventually find them and destroy them, because Resistance Is Futile
One Cube is enough, We will add all your biological and technological distinctiveness to our collective. lower your shields and surrender.
until hundreds of ships ram the cubes - even at impulse that is too much destruction for a cube to take
Somehow, I have I hard time believing this. THE Dominion was next door for the Borg for years. The Dominion had to figure some way to handle or keep off the Borg or their warriors wouldn't be able to be assimilated.
I do like what ifs...especially where Trek lore is concerned.
really nice vid! How about a video "what if the founders died to the sickness"?
would the vorta kill themselves and the jemhadar just fight until they were annihilated
@@catarinamikaro1045 I'd think they'd do what the peacekeepers in farscape did. They'd continue their roles and become more extreme
@@yodaslovetoy oy… that storyline for the mini series…
I would’ve preferred a war on Rigel’s home world over what that was.
I mean he’s not really a “what if” channel but yea that’d be beat
The Vorta are blinded by genetic religion. I bet they'd just assume they went to another Plane of Existence or some BS like that. The Jem Hadar would fracture into war parties ruled by whichever Firsts wished to become warlords. Some would fight the Alpha and Beta powers other would fight each other over Purity of bloodlines or spirit.
There is some beta canon from a magazine story based on the Yesterday's Enterprise's timeline where the Borg and the Dominion were stalemated on a war, then the Borg gained the tremendous advantage after "assimilating something strong" in the Delta Quadrant (heavily implying they managed to assimilate Species 8472) and won.
They do not 8472, just borg fight better if you are agresive they simple hive directive start see you as danger and start send much more force and not burn them on one cube fight. And dominium is damm agresive
I've always wondered what became of Lars? The changeling that, like Odo was sent out , into the universe in his infancy . Odo linked with him when he came to DS9.
He done did died.
Remember, he linked with Odo when Odo was still carrying the disease Starfleet gave him to spread to the other Changelings, then he took off and never came back.
He dead.
@@Aliandrin While you are probably right we don't know for sure. He was infected but we don't know where he went. He could have made his way back to the link or to another scientifically advanced race that cured him.
In the books he helps run the dominion with Odo after the changeling god the Progenitor dies.
@@fourthofjulygaming3795 Was he in the Great Link when Odo healed it?
@@funzjaghe was actually infected but survived and returned to the link after the war.
I had always have an image in my head, of the Founder world and the Great link like a Sea churning , as a Borg Sphere hovers above
This sounds like the yozongvong invasion in star wars
The Yuuzhan Vong? I remember them.
@@kobayashibrynhild9622 ya fractured governments invaded by extra galactic force getting foot hold . Then heading for earth( corrasant)
Hmm.... Maybe but then if Trek pulled out like its own version of Xenomorphs to fight them or something in the same manner Star Wars deployed LITERALLY its own version of Terminators to fight the Vong.. That DID act, perform and even LOOKED like them too. An even a small team single-handedly crushed a whole army of Vong ALONE too is what I heard. Dunno if there even IS anything in Trek that could do similar to a powerful enemy. Generally with this franchise they get very scientific, a huge Navy/Army battle or mix of both to end a major threat
@@robertagu5533 ya the tandrondo arms hunter killer droids.... could be a army of data upgrades
@@robertagu5533 why didn't Starfleet do that build army of droids you could do that faster then breed jemhadar
Great Video as always!
I think we would something different to start with. Once the Borg encounter their first Dominion ship and assimilate them they would find that the Federation and Earth have fallen. Once the Borg discover this I think the Borg's curiosity would be peaked and they would establish the location of the heads of the Dominion. Once they discover the Founders are the heads of the Dominion the Borg would make their way there and leave a defeated Earth and outlying former Federation alone simply no challenge. The rest would play out in a similar fashion if not the Founders being unable to repel the Borg.
@@DoremiFasolatido1979 All I can say us like Lore Reloaded you have such a way with words.
The Borg are like Cybermen - no ego
Always a favorite idea-Borg vs. the Dominion. Enormous destruction on both sides, absolutely.
Not so sure about that. I don't really see how the Dominion could inflict any damage. A Poleron beam isn't a Species 8472 Planeteater.
A Jem’haddar Borg Drone going through with drawls could function like part berserker, part assimilate.
Collective minimally “modifies” the Jem’haddar so it retains its flexibility and speed in its rage state, fists modified so a punch injects nannites into the victim.
Even if only a few survive that’s new Borg on the ship that can at least start screwing things up big for the rest of the crew.
Seeing as white is something Manufactured, the collective would likely “solve” it with an implant that dispensed as needed until the rage state was needed.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and very well informatively explained and executed in every detail and every way shape and form greatly provided indeed👌.
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice keep at it
The Founders would turn Jem’Hadar into suicide/kamikaze bombers. If it came to it, thousands of ships ramming Borg cubes.
Perfect!!!
Unfortunately, I disagree. I just don't see this happening. If the Federation was pushed to the breaking point by the Dominion, then they would have started using all their "highly classified technology" to win. Things like Genesis torpedoes, Phase Cloaks, blowing up stars, or even Time Travel to prevent the Dominion winning. Remember that Sisko and his crew were willing to blow up the wormhole to stop the Dominion from winning.
When Quark tells his nephew about hyu-mans: czcams.com/video/-D2SHNqkjbY/video.html
and Wouldn't the Federation go so far as to begin adapting Borg technology to their ships? since keep in mind Borg technology is quite power hungry so the installation of a second warp core would be required. let alone the integration of the Borg technology into a federation ships existing systems. because I'm sure there would be a lot of red tape involved.
@@gamepad3173 the federation probably would start coacking their ships too since they have the technology for it (but are forbidden) and start guerrilla wars.
@@pietervanderzwaan4295 True, though I doubt that the Federation would have a whole lot of choice concerning both the Borg and the Dominion.
The Delta Quadrent . . ''I think we will sit this out, thank you''.
Good stuff mate! Ive wondered myself how a battle or two or the all out war between the dominion and the borg would flesh out. I would think with the borg having transwarp hubs they would have encountered or assimilated species with knowledge of the founders and\or the dominion. Even possible they caught one of the seed changlings sent out and assimilated them. Fun times
A shapeshifting borg? That deserves a well written story all by itself, the horror aspect of the borg + borg changeling would be interesting to see.
Picard: NOOOO NOAOUGHHHHHHH!!!
There.....are FOUR LIKES
Well said!
What if "Order" and "Perfection" aren't incompatible? The great link is essentially just a biological collective.
that, and the fact the 2 largest populations of the dominion are artificial slaves not worthy of assimilation , are likely why the 2 powers didn't actually have conflict.
The Order might not be interested in the perfection, but you bet said perfection will one day be interested in The orderhappy biologies. And orderlies can't turn a blind eye to said perfect danger. All their ORDER is SUPREMELY IMPORTANT! way of rule is for minimizing danger upon themselves.
It's...... Inevitable.
I can see a very real possibility of the Founders deciding that a merge with the Borg would be to the benefit of both their agendas.
I often think about how the Founders are just as much a hive mind as the Borg. And how the Federation’s two greatest existential threats both have unity of purpose and care not for their individual selves, while the Federation is full of disparate people compromising daily to make life work. It’s another neat way the Dominion and Borg are dark mirrors of the Federation.
Lets not forget from Sacrifice of Angels, Weyon wanted to eradicate Earth to prevent a rebellion from forming when after Dominion declared victory. The Borg may not have much of an Earth to invade. While Voyager messed up Borg Lore, there are fan theories that the Borg choose to assimilate when a species becomes technologically advanced enough to add their advancements to the collective. The Dominion may offer little to no advancements that the Borg desires.
I don't that theory would make sense. The Borg would come in to "cleanse" the offending force of the Dominion before they could destroy the more valuable Alpha Quadrant.
I"m more of a fan of the Borg Farm theory. Basically the borg let planets like Earth remain as they continue to develop new tech for the borg to take. They finally invade and assimilate entire species after that species is no longer able to provide new resources other than to make more drones and raw materials to build new cubes.
Technologically, no, but lest we forget... "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."
The biological distinctiveness of a liquiform shapeshifter species that has a individual maintaining shared consciousness probably checks that box pretty hard.
Geat as always keep them coming.
8:15 do you mean unimatrix 001?
Because unimatrix zero is the weird dream world some drones go to when they are regenerating. Also it was destroyed by Janeway, like most of the delta quadrant.
Excellent analysis. The Dominion were just another hostile regional quadrant power. Like the Romulans or Klingons only they managed to subdue more then 2/3s of there quadrant. They would fair against the Borg about as well as anyone else. The real deciding factor in all this is the Q.
I think it's time we ask the real question.
Would Starfleet survive a war with the Kelvans from the Andromeda galaxy?
The Kelvans are incredibly advanced...But Starfleet has the marshmallow dispencer.
This reply is a test.
CZcams removed the video.
@@emporer15 are you sure its not just removed in your region? Video is still up for me.
@@Marcus_Postma Thank you for letting me know. When I posted that I had it on a tab that partially loaded the comments but refused to load the video saying it was removed for copyright.
just send scotty or someone like him and drink them under the table.😂
Thank you by the way thank you very much
The Borg have got this on easy mode until insaneway returns!
Excellent video, but I'd like to point out a flaw, if I may: Borg assimilation occurs when Borg nanoprobes attach to the blood cells of the host, thereby assimilation into the Collective begins. Later on comes the actual physical enhancements through surgery (a long cybernetic arm, an eye thing, etc.) Founders have no blood cells. They're made of goo. The Morphogenic Virus engineered by Section 31 was designed to specifically stop shapeshifting abilities. In effect, "freezing" a shapeshifter into one form until they crust up and die. We saw what happened to Odo when Garak was torturing him. Similar fate. One could probably assume that Section 31 was well-aware of what would happen if a Founder was unable to shapeshift, which is why they engineered this virus in the first place. The Borg wouldn't use such a thing if they were attempting to assimilate the Founders, and they would gain nothing by simply exterminating a race like Section 31 was trying to do. And I'd like to also point out that the Founders aren't alone in likely being resistant to assimilation. What about the Tholians? Or the Organians? No blood cells there, neither. Starfleet's only hope may be with these races if the Borg ever decided to invade, Dominion or not.
Now I wonder..when was this virus made? And would Section 31 leave it somewhere to be found by avenging friends (or, in this case, avenging enemies)?
@@Qaianna The virus was made when Sisko & Odo visited Earth. I would guess Admiral Leyton was either a pawn or actively working with Section 31 to infect Odo with it.
excellent intro
4:40
"We expected...much more lead time."
Well, yeah, when you're not aware of transwarp conduits...
If a confrontation between the dominion and the Borg, I believe the vorta are the biggest weakness, as stated the founders have little interest in the day to day operations, so the knowledge of ship designs, fleet locations, planetary assets and so on is so close controlled by this singular group, that assimilating a few would give the Borg a huge tactical advantage.
The Vorta have kill switches. It's likely they would be told to activate them as soon as they come into physical contact with a Borg. I also think the dominion keeps their intelligence compartmentalized. Not every Vorta would know every plan or ship deployment, he or she would just know the mission and the higher ranking ones like Weyoun would have the real important intel.
Idk man the changelings are beyond tough, it takes dozens of shoots to kill just one of them and they can shapeshift their bodies into spikes to just stab the Borg drones in the face… which is something no one ever seems to think of, along side traditional fire arms which Picard kindly shows us… Wonderfully useful.
I think its a trope in many Si-Fi , the bad guys should kill humanity first , as humanity will always win in the end given time due to how flexible and adaptable they are. But they never do.
True, but unlike most that ignore them until they are at the gates, both the Dominion and Borg began planning and implementing a plan to wipe out humans after meeting them and probably came the closest in succeeding. That is what makes them more dangerous than most.
They tried an Weyoun PLANNED it.. Its Canon episode dialogue BUT Dukat didnt like the idea... Back when he was sane, an a coulda-been hero. Thing is IF an if so WHEN would he adopt what Damar eventually would realize an side with an start seeing the Federation an Allies as Liberators to work with an the Dominion as enemies. Provided Dukat would ever be able to do that.
But it makes sense that OP bad guys are too arrogant to see the real threat. When you have so much power you lose your ability to think laterally. It's always fighting uphill that keeps you sharp.
DS9 detects a Borg sphere on long range sensors. Sisko puts the station on red alert and all non starfleet/barjoran personnel down to Bajor and gets the Defiant ready for battle. However the sphere flies past DS9 and goes into the wormhole. Sisko & co follows in the Defiant and discovers the Borg firing on the founders home world. Sisko orders the sphere be destroyed.....quantum torpedoes blast into the sphere destroying it and after saving the founders the female founder ends the war with the federation. She acknowledges solids can be trusted and heroic
Would a Borg sphere be allowed to fly through the wormhole? The Dominion weren't.
@@noahbody9875 I like to imagine that the prophets would trash any borg vessel that enters the Bajorin system
Interesting storyline concept. I like it.
Theyd NOT want to risk it.. Theyd have the station open fire on it without hesitation assuming THEY was a prime target an ALL combat ships would attack without hesitation. Especially if said Sphere decided to use the station somehow as part of its plan to attack Founder HQ. itd be a minute before they realized the Borg WASNT after them. An here even the Q feared the Borg..
Would the Prophets feel the same??? Itd probably decide if they let the Sphere through or not or decide its best to eliminate that one.
@@robertagu5533 forgot about the prophets lol
I had always thought that the borg battle that took place in dark frontier, where 7 of 9 was present was against the dominion
One other HUGE advantage the Borg have is Time Travel. The ability of the Borg to move anywhere in the galaxy in the blind of an eye in regards to "Space" is already a HUGE advantage. Other alien races would be forced to rely on wormholes. The Borg don't need to rely on wormholes like that. But, the advantage of the Borg to travel anywhere in "Space" goes beyond "Space." The Borg can travel anywhere in "Time," as well. The technology of the Borg is far more advanced any any other race.
In reality, the Borg would be using Time Travel very often. For example, the Borg would have used Time Travel to avoid dealing with Species 8472 at all - unless the Borg knew from the start that it would ultimately result in the Borg defeating Species 8472 due to the fact that the Borg would receive help from Voyager.
In that scenario, the Borg Queen would have found the initial losses of planets, ships, and lives to Species 8472 acceptable. The Borg Queen actually would have sent the Borg ship to the fluid dimension of Species 8472 knowing the Borg would lose the first several rounds of the fight, and yet telling Species 8472 that their technology has been analyzed and that Species 8472 would be assimilated. From the "relative" point of view of Species 8472 at that moment in time, Species 8472 must have been laughing at the Borg. But at that "relative" moment in time, the Borg Queen also must have been laughing at Species 8472 - because the Borg Queen knew all along what was going to happen in the end (because of her access to Time Travel technology, and possibly the ability to know the future from communication from the future version of the Borg Queen).
Dominion Victory: THE FIRST GALACTIC DOMINION!!!
I spent the last two weeks playing RogueTech. Good game.
In the case of Dominion conquest and Borg invasion, i would introduce both to Species 8472. Since the Federation no longer has "a dog in the fight", what would it matter 😊
I hope he found the favor he was looking for.
EXCELLENT ANALYSIS. Very logical and thoroughly thought. R u an infj
I want to watch this as a movie.
Accurate :)
If you're surrounded you can attack in every direction.
starfleet: comes close to losing the war
borg: steps in to save starfleet untill voyager give them the virus to defeat species 8472
captain archer: i hope they didnt send someone the hand book on whats going to happen in the next few 100 years
Nothing will happen. The borg is a self promising prophecy and eventually some will leave the community and the cycle of assimilation continue. The Dominion will not understand the difference. A life is equal another. The borg is only interested on earth because they're humans and the plot demand a related place for the audience. How can the Dominion be judging the borg when the federation is working in a familiar way of assemble species under one nation
My question to you would be if odo wouldn't bring about change in the great link. in star trek online his fleet came to the rescue of ds9 when the hurq almost wiped it from the face of the universe and with his help and innovation the alliance was able to reach a better outcome in that war. wouldnt he do the same if it came to a battle with the borg?
Why do you have "favor" as a search term on the top right? (Like at around: 2:17.)
There are variables to these "what if" scenarios namely the Q, the Organians, the Metrons, the species from which Trelayne hails from...would they become involved at some point?They would be totally resistant to assimilation and not conquerable by military means.
I like to think non-corporeals/TOS-"god"-species are "immune" to assimilation, with only the Q being vaguely aware that the Borg could eventually ruin them if they toyed with them too much. If nothing else, I'm pretty sure it'd be a lot easier for every species you mentioned to move to another galaxy if things got bad enough and the Borg got dangerously close to adapting enough to assimilate them.
If the Dominion and the Borg
fight who do you think would the Dominion or the Borg it's a Dominion thoughts the Borg was a true threat what put all the considerable might and genius against the Borg I'm not saying the Borg wouldn't win immediately but the Dominion would give him a considerable fight
I am surprised the borg did not attack or even seen on DS9 outside the first episode. 😳
Let's all just agree with the original writers of the Borg that they are meant to be an omnipotent species taken from Darwinian adaptation. Nothing in the universe can beat them, they adapt to anything.
Big question, hypothetical: COULD A BORG CUBE GO THROUGH THE BAJORAN WORMHOLE? Does it 'fit' through? :-)
"one" word - borg compression algorithms, "zippes" cube to smaller compact shape that solves everything :)
but I think, at least 10 cubes side-by-side can enter the hole and through the hole
-as shown and seen in series, the hole is HUGE
don't know the official numbers of the diameter of the oppening, is it fixed, or does it depend of the worm-aliens
@@BasileusDudek it’s said to be in the same place and look the same out the window each time, which would mean it’s the same size every time if both aspects hold true. But yes, considering the Dominion sent hundreds of ships at once, and not just their little fighters, the wormhole entrance is absolutely huge
Well, all the borg would need to do is assimilate one cloning facility, then they'd have all the drones they could ever need. As for the Jem'Hadar surviving once assimilated, Borg alcoves can provide everything a drone needs while regenerating, so i imagine adapting the alcoves to provide what the White does would be relatively easy.
And according to Beta Canon, there IS a transwarp hub in the Alpha quadrant, but it's in Tholian space, and the borg just pretty much ignore the Tholians, because they can't assimilate them, so they deactivated the hub.
The Borg created a bootstrap paradox with star fleet involving time travel to stop first contact and alerting themselves to the federation simply because they considered star fleet a threat to themselves. That’s because they failed to beat them in the past. They would use the same time travel attack on any species considered a threat and would either win or create a bootstrap paradox that means they can’t lose.
Ah, but wouldn't they have done that already...?
@@Sephiroth144 Depends. Have we been here before? How many times? Or not? ... meaning this was their first time round that particular bend, so they'll now be sure as hell to learn from it and use the idea against all other uppity enemies.
If you made s star empire in star trek where would the best place be to start?
I think that the Founders are very similar to species 8472. Quite possibly they may actually have even existed in Fluidic Space at some point. Species 8472 shows an amazing capability to alter themselves to appear as Humans, indicating that their race could handle such a morphing similar to the changelings. The Founders like species 8472, are hard to detect with normal senors and can survive in open space. They may also have similar cell structures that could allow them to be unable to be changed by the Borg unless Humans are used to modifying the nanotech. It took Humans a while to introduce a manufactured virus to kill the changelings, similar to how they did same against 8472.
I think the Dominion has several advantages over the Borg in any conflict between them. The Borg need new beings to assimilate for its war machine to expand. The Dominion doesn't need new beings; it can clone an army. Borg tactics are slow, methodical, and plodding, focusing on massive shows of force. The Collective mind is formidable, but it's also stupid and predictable. Dominion tactics are much more intelligent, surgical, quick, and rely on deception and surprise. They value ingenuity and stealth. Security is so lax on Borg vessels that Starfleet has no problem beaming in commando teams who are able to operate for a good ten minutes before the Collective knows they are there. Imagine what a contingent of Jem'Hadar with personal cloaking fields, or even a single shapeshifter, can do inside a Borg cube?
Honestly, I think the reason the Borg didn't invade the Gamma Quadrant so much is because they know a war with the Dominion is more trouble than its worth. I don't think the Founders or the Jem'Hadar are the kind of species that are worth assimilating. The Founders physiology and affinity for the Great Link make assimilation a challenge. The Jem'Hadar's addiction to the White is also a thing that would make assimilation difficult, perhaps impossible. Even the Vorta, who are genetically manipulated, might be more trouble to assimilate than they were worth.
The key to the Borg is that they need stable, independently functioning humanoids to assimilate; they need the 'raw material' to be good for assimilation. But these three key Dominion species might be, in their own ways, too 'corrupted' on the microcellular level for assimilation to work in the way it is presented, since they were built from the DNA on up to serve a collective of their own. Why go through the trouble of assimilating that, when there are so many other, more pliable species, to assimilate elsewhere?
As such, any war between the Borg and the Dominion would be fighting over the Dominion's client peoples. And the Dominion, unlike the empires of the Alpha and Beta quadrants, have no problem destroying entire worlds to deny the Borg an advantage. It would be a scorched earth campaign of attrition that would cost the Borg more than it would gain in assimilatable bodies.
In short, I think a war between the Borg and the Dominion would offer up the Borg several unique challenges that other powers don't provide. It would be an ugly war, a brutal war, and one where I think the Borg might lose more than they'd have to gain.
Your second point ignores the shere size of the milkyway. We don't know in what part the Dominion resides. Natural growth of both "empires" would take 2 million years before they reach each others borders. Far above the time we know they exist. Dominion has 2000 or 10000 years depending on what show character. Borg have ages (unknown number) or 1000 years, depending on the character and show that tells the info. Both numbers strongly indicate, that the Borg and Dominion might live outside of each others colony reach, by growing naturally. Even if we say they colonize and conquer systems at the speed of light (which would sound strange, since there would be resistance that slows them down) it would take them around 200.000 years to run into each other. (That is of course the cap Borg starting at edge of Delta Quadrant and Dominion at the edge of Gamma) But we know they can't be direct neighbors or the Romulans would have encountered the Dominion before the opening of the wormhole. So the reason why the Borg only assimilated a small part of the Gamma Quadrant might be more, because they just recently started. (Maybe 100 years ago) I will borrow Guynan for that: "They have time, they never do anything hasty"
If the Borg were any other species, I'd agree with you@@bellpepperknight809 . The galaxy is huge, and warp speed just isn't fast enough to traverse the galaxy in timescales that are reasonable. But the Borg is one of the few species--perhaps the only empire--to have transwarp technology. This was actually a central understanding in Voyager, as it was this Borg transwarp technology that helped get Voyager home so quickly. In addition, a lot of the episodes show hints that the Borg were very familiar with the galaxy and its inhabitants very early on. In Enterprise, for example, we find out there were Borg in the Alpha Quadrant back in the days of Zefram Cochrane (although nobody on Earth knew that they were there). The Borg have data and species catalog numbers for species that you wouldn't think they'd know about. They catalogued the Ferengi, an Alpha Quadrant species, as Species 180. The Tlaxians, a Delta Quadrant species, is catalogued as Species 218. Such things lead me to believe that Borg explorers have been pretty much everywhere in the galaxy. But, like you said, they are patient, and choose their targets with care.
@@Beatnik59 I agree. Don't really remember what was involving speed in my comment but I will check.
Yep, they have transwarp which means they can pop out everywhere they want. However they need to assimilate the system to colonize it. And that takes longer than just popping out and done. So I gave them the speed of light for colonizing. The travel time is less what slows them down. Now of course speed of light would hardly be appropriate but we simply don't know how Transwarp travel with assimilation time would balance out. So lightspeed it was for my comment. :D
I also think those Borg in the past were brought there by the Enterprise E movie.
The founders shape shift as species 8742, acquire their tech and use it with devastating effect against the Borg.
Well the Romulans and Cardassians werer able to create a device able to keep a Changeling locked in a solid state, so theres no reason why the Borg couldnt so the same and then inject them with assimilation probes.
A lot of what if’s , they’d still have to deal with species 8472 who was far different to stand species so who knows how the founders would see them. Assuming an alliance could be reached that would’ve been a game changer. I think it would be closer than it’s said but the Borg are pretty hard to fight. Unless you are voyager with hand wavium time travel super tech destroying their transport hub easily.
That's why they had so many Borg cube's flying around the trans hub because it was so weak and the cube's were so strong until future weapons
One note- "United Earth" would not be a thing. Remember, Weyoun was talking about wiping out the entire population of Earth. I don't think a victory would curb that impulse; the real question is would they stop with erasing the population (and likely trying to erase the historical records) of Earth, or decide to wipe out the human species (ala the Xindi)...
And a burned out husked (and possibly extinct species) makes a rather pointed monument to "don't fuck with us".
Would the Borg be able to assimilate a shapeshifter? Couldn’t a shapeshifter just maybe spit them out? I guess the Borg would have to find a way to contain them.
They can be infected with a virus ?
Does anyone know how big the military capabilities of the Borg are?.
Whats there capacity ,100 ,1000 unlimited cubes?
Even if they cut off the Bajoran wormhole it wouldn't matter. The borg could just use their transwarp hub and exit in the gamma quadrant.
I'm more amused with the fact that battle of sector 001 was the last borg incursion on Earth, there are instances in star trek novel, (can't remember the name) where the borg are relentless in assimilation of a species, they send a cube and if that fails, they send another one and then they send more. I also fail to see how the borg failed to adapt themselves after the battle of wolf 359. Pretty sure the queen sensed thousands of drones in that cube go silent and instead for the next incursion she sends a cube again, instead of 2 cubes or a tactical cube.
Well, i dont know how closely the startrek computer game runs with accuracy, but the founders werent unified with its dominion policy. So im curious if Odo, the rebel and prodigal child was able to comvince this faction to leave the great link and form their own society, i am curious how they would develop.
So magnanimous of CBS to release the video.
Borg drones' organic parts are supplied nutrients from implants that replicate what is needed from energy received from their alcoves. Thus, anything the body needs, including Ketracel White, can be easily replicated and delivered making the Jem Hadar excellent potential drones, especially if they begin growing them after assimilating the Dominions cloning tech.
This is assuming the Borg are capable of replicating the Ketracel White, which the Dominon made difficult to do. That said, Borg technology typically can outpace everyone else.
@@ezridelarosa9556 Or, if the specific resources needed to manufacture KW are too costly for drones that wouldn't function very long ("no Jem'hadar has ever lived to the age of thirty"), they might not bother assimilating them.
"Hey, we've got a whole species of berserker crackheads...?" "Yeah, give 'em a number and move on."
@@Sephiroth144 I mean, 5-15 years of use out of the drones is still a fair amount of use. In fact, you could even use them and disposable shock troops like the Jem Hadar are for the dominion.
@@ezridelarosa9556 True- of course, there are plenty of other species that would work just as well... but without the limitations put in place by the Founders to control the Jem'hadar, (the Klingons and Hirogen come to mind).
True but not in the numbers that could be useful to the borg. Also, the white probably wouldnt be much of an issue for them.
the idea of the Borg cloning the Jem'hadar and yes i know they don't clone but have they ever ran into a fully genetically engineered races can't remember would be interesting and don't dominion weapons have a biological components in there rifles (Jedzia Dax in that episode with Worf or the episode with Cheif O'brian his buddy bleeding to death cuz they could not stop his bleeding)
Borg don't bleed
Hmm... So, what happens when the founders/vorta find a solar system with a warning or welcome message from artificial lifeforms in another galaxy?
With the Dominion defeating the Federation in the Dominion Borg war going on how would Voyager cope with this before the war Voyager was already in the Delta quadrant
Excellent video, which I agree with 100%. The Borg are by far the most powerful race in the galaxy. Also, there is no doubt your video is correct. Even Commander Riker from another timeline confirmed this. In that timeline, the Borg had completely conquered Earth and the Enterprise was one of the few remaining ships of the Federation.
They would keep federation of planets it works to well they'd just put vorta in charge
Species 8472 is is the exact reason why the Dominion would have no chance. Not because Jane-way and the crew of Voyager were vital, but rather the species itself were a better match Against the Borg than the Dominion.
Another thought, what else does section 31 have up its sleeve
Plot armor keeps the Borg from wining.
Thinking about it, If The Federation loses Species 8472 are the true winners.
Didn’t Spok say something about Khan no thinking I’m 3 dimension? Looks to me like Star Fleet totally forgot about that given how tightly packed they always had their fleets in battle. How the funk weren’t they all crashing into each other? Each ship could’ve only had a few kilometres between them, doing evasive manoeuvre pattern delta all at the same time, seems kind of dangerous to me. Dash cam footage would shithot. 🍻
The borg already now of the jemhadar as they already assimilated some if you watch unimatrix zero I believe you see a jehadar
It's a pity the borg did not have a brief encounter with dominion ships in ds9 would love to see who would come off the worse the borg or the jemhada
Easy , ... The Borg ' I still remember these Super Soldiers , of the Dominion Empire ' getting handled ' by literally anyone with Hand to hand Combat training " when Worf ' and Garak , were captured along with General Martok 'and Dr Bashir , Worf fought and defeated numerous , Jem' Hadar Super-Soldiers " till he couldn't fight anymore , remember The average Borg drone is almost the equivalent of a fully functional combat aware Data '
And we know of Mr Data's capabilities without a doubt so , .... How many Jem' Hadar's will be lined up to to try and handle a fully functional attack ready drone/drones on the hunt for new potential drone worker bees ?
Why wouldn't jem'hadar borg drones have a built in white supply
I never understood why The Founders revealed themselves as being Changelings, or why they didn't play the long game and infiltrate and destabilize the Alpha quadrant.
Other than that being the plot the show's producers decided on...
Arrogance, they would feel ashamed to hide their glory from the pathetic solids. They are nothing to them, so playing a long game when they are clearly so superior would be a show of weakness.
Plus the Domionion had complete understanding of Alpha quad powers prior to contact.
The Dominion appeared w anti shield tech and the scare tactics of ramming the Odessey while whe was in retreat.
Starfleet countered that with 1 overpower Defiant class ship and rearming DS9 with more torps and phaser arrays.
The Domionion was in full control and would have won the war if not for mystical wormhole nonlinear aliens removing 2000 ships of reinforcement.
The Domionion did underestimate the Federation w their surprise attack against Dominion shipyards - but then we see 3 months later The Federation was having a ship and manpower shortage.
If Odo doesn't agree to return to the link and cure the founders - they die off and Odo could effectively run the Domionion as 1 of the only changelings left in existence. Thereby making it a less hostile more open society.
Obviously the Prophets cretion of Sisko changed the linear timeline and the arrival of Domionion reinforcements.
Odos life on DS9 and his understanding of humanity and love w Kira could make him a benevolent leader of the Domionion.
2 reasons: firstly to sow discord and make people paranoid and unwilling to trust their allies
And secondly and most importantly, they fucked up, I'm sure they never intended to release the crew of the defiant but odo mucked with their plans
What if the jjverse was Starfleet lost to the whale probe since the genesis incident didn't happen?
Earth would have already been sucked in by V'ger.
Would the borgs primary objective still be to assimilate earth? I thought they wanted to because it was the center of the federation, holding all of its leadership. And the time travel plan was to prevent it from ever forming the federation. But if the Dominion took over the alpha quadrant and the federation was dissolved im not sure the borg would care more about the earth than any other planet. Eventually, sure, but I dont think it'd be any high priority objective anymore.
But wasn't it said in voyager was because human's made such great drones
The human species brings them closer to perfection. And seeing how the Borg decided to create Locutus, the human species must have something they desire. Maybe they want the magical Omega power known as Plot Armor for themselves?
Once the Borg is aware of the Dominion's main weakness of the wormhole, The Borg would make a B-line for it and send at least one cube through to the Gamma quadrant to secure and hold that end till more ships could arrive to reinforce it. By that time, Dominion weapons would be all but useless. All they have to do then is find a small world outside of Dominion's control, assimilate it and they would have their foothold in the Gamma quadrent.
they already have transwarp into the gamma quadrant, the wormhole is irrelevant.
This assumes the Domionion does2nt already have intel on the Borg Collective and what to do if and when they appear in the gamma quadrant.
The Domionion always was a step or 2 ahead of the Federation and alpha quad powers. Infiltrating Earth w 3 founders and almost causing starfleet to overthrow the civy govt or forcing the Klingons to invade Cardassia for fear the dutapa council was controlled by founders.
The Domionion might secure tech like the breen power sucking weapon to disable a cube and then ram hundreds of ships and effectively destroy 95% of the cube. Shelby did mention a stat that Starfleet felt that Borg vessels could operate and regenerate unless you destroyed all drones or 90 some %.
To think that the Dominion wouldn't have this intel and ruthlessly use it to keep order is againat their typical behaviour.
@@warrenrudolph4475 by that logic the Federation would always be a step ahead due to section 31 and have a plan in motion to destroy the entire collective before ever encountering the borg. they had infected Odo with a genocidal virus before the wormhole was discovered which means that they had a good idea about the founders before first contact (just like the founders had a good idea of the politics before the wormhole was discovered). of course we see that they did not have a plan for the borg, so that probably means the founders are also not a step ahead.
There already in gamma quadrant the hub goes to all quadrants
Second order
If the Borg managed to assimilate a changeling and could then do the same 🤔
The borg wouldn’t assimilate the Jem’hadar for similar reasons as why they don’t assimilate the Kazon. The borg would discontinue the white, let the Jem’hadar run rampant, die off and not clone anymore.