this might be something i get to, since it's been 5 years. but in the meantime, if you just do an advanced search on boardgamegeek for everything username: rahdo owns with a weight of at least 3.9 (with at least 20 people voting for that) and you get the results! :) www.boardgamegeek.com/geeksearch.php?action=search&advsearch=1&objecttype=boardgame&q=&include%5Bdesignerid%5D=&geekitemname=&geekitemname=&include%5Bpublisherid%5D=&range%5Byearpublished%5D%5Bmin%5D=&range%5Byearpublished%5D%5Bmax%5D=&range%5Bminage%5D%5Bmax%5D=&floatrange%5Bavgrating%5D%5Bmin%5D=&floatrange%5Bavgrating%5D%5Bmax%5D=&range%5Bnumvoters%5D%5Bmin%5D=&floatrange%5Bavgweight%5D%5Bmin%5D=3.9&floatrange%5Bavgweight%5D%5Bmax%5D=&range%5Bnumweights%5D%5Bmin%5D=20&colfiltertype=owned&searchuser=rahdo&range%5Bminplayers%5D%5Bmax%5D=&range%5Bmaxplayers%5D%5Bmin%5D=&playerrangetype=normal&range%5Bleastplaytime%5D%5Bmin%5D=&range%5Bplaytime%5D%5Bmax%5D=&B1=Submit
@@rahdo thanks very much for this. I discovered vital lacerda's games through your channel and I can't thank you enough for that. Looking forward to more of your run throughs 😁
Depth of In the Year of the Dragon is to be found not just in that you have to plan ahead many months (rounds), but also in that you have to flexibly plan, in order to adapt your strategy to other players' moves, because they're too planning upon the same bases as you. It's deep and complex not because of its mechanism or rules, that are simple and hugely elegant, but because of the difficulty in finding the right BALANCE between "what" and "when", between how powerful you need to take that action and when you've got to take it, and this balance is greatly reflected in the choice of the master or apprentice during the person phase. Great game. Glad you put it in the list, I agree with your opinions.
Thanks for another great video. An enjoyable list. I think of games with the richness and depth you describe as "complex" and games with lots of rules, intricacies, and that are hard to understand as "complicated." "A well-crafted baguette fresh out of the oven is complex. But a curry/onion/green olive/poppy/cheese bread is complicated."
For awhile now I've wondered if maybe BGG should have 2 separate ratings for heavyness: one strictly for a game's strategic depth and another for its rules complexity
Agricola definitely does my head in every time I play it. I always end up looking at my hand of cards and then after about a minute I start talking to myself. "Now if this requires that occupation, I will need to take that occupation which requires an extra three food. Then if I can build that, I can plant lettuce there to get a point. But I can't do that with only three workers, so I need to expand the house and get more food..." Anybody who plays the game knows these problems.
A few things that suprised me: Dragon Petz no being in the list Brass and Zhanguo being harder than Kanban (haven't played it but it looked so complex, I'll have to buy it XD) Alchemists being in this list, I thought it was a gateway-mid game Thanks a lot for this Top 10!
Be aware that Alchemists is not a Worker placement game. One of the key elements of a WP is that you deny the other player the action, that is not true in Alchemists. And I would have expected Le Havre when you mentioned single Worker, but I agree that it is not that heavy. Finally thanks that two games I helped develop made the list on spot 4 and 1.
Matthias Nagy there are limited worker spaces in alchemists, so you implicitly do deny actions to other players. getting first dibs on actions is hugely important, and not everyone can do that. though tbh, i disagree that it's a key distinction, actually, but that's a topic for another time :)
***** It can only be important for selling potions and buying artifacts, where one can loose an action. But even for selling potions you bid after the placement. And 90% of the artifacts are not worth their money. :)Fact is that BGG defines WP as denying actions, as thats how it was named when it came up in Caylus and Agricola.
Matthias Nagy worker placement is also hugely important for student testing, gathering componnets, and publishing works, as it's first come first served, and if you arrive late, you might be out of what you need, so there's actual denial on the majority of actions in the game. also, i'm afraid BGG defintions aren't going to help your argument as to what worker placement is either, because it clearly says "There is usually(*) a limit on the number of times a single action may be drafted each round. Once that limit is reached, an action can no longer be taken until a subsequent round or until the action space is no longer occupied by a worker. As such, not all actions can be taken by all players in a given round" Notice the "usually", which means it's not a 100% requirement. This is why games like Myrmes, Madeira, Walnut Grove, Name of the Rose, Perirobis, Fantasy Frontier, and many more are all labeled as worker placement, even though none of them feature denial. Also, BGG lists Alchemists as a worker placement title, so again, citing BGG hurts your argument instead of helps it, I'm afraid :)
I'd say, the most complicated game I have is Archipelago. There are kind of 2 boards going on at once and with tons of cards that gives you abilities. It is a lot to keep track and tons of rules to teach. I still love playing it and have lots of fun. I only played it twice, because all my friends say its too complex to play.
Your rationale for considering Athlas a board/hex-based MTG is very similar to how Mage Wars was advertised. It was the game (in tandem with Summoner Wars) that was to pull Magic fans to tabletop gaming and away from the high-pressured money sink that is collectible card gaming. However, it didn't work as planned. While I never got too heavy into either "Wars" game, Athlas is still a curiosity for me. Played Magic from '95 to the onset of planeswalkers as playable characters and I am wondering if Athlas would scratch the itch that got me into MTG to begin with.
TyphoidBryan i get that's how mage wars was positioned, but in the end, you're still engaged in a very straightforward "smash your opponent in the head by rolling dice" fest. Nothing wrong with that, but nowhere near the depth of MTG. Athlas, with its capture the flag objective, shared life pools, focus on terraforming and lots of other oddball effects, fixed card queue, deterministic combat (can you imagine how crappy dice would be in Magic the Gathering) really elevates the whole thing to very heavy levels (for us anyway). My video for it should be up this week hopefully :)
This makes me happy. I own some of them and Vinhos and Madeira are among them. I hated In the Year of the Dragon and usually enjoy Feld games and (it did not seem terribly heavy). For another subject I recently bought my first console a 3ds and I like it very much. My favorite game so far is Fire Emblem which feels board game-ish, my second favorite is Shinobi, and my third is Monster Hunter 4. I haven't gotten into Animal Crossing New Leaf much yet but it is charming.
I'm just getting to this video. I wholeheartedly agree with "In The Year of the Dragon". Good choice. For the record, Trajan left me flat. Overly complex. Dragon: well executed.
Richard, I believe the info cards can handle a playlist, so if you put a playlist together of the runthroughs for these games, you can put that in there instead of just individual videos.
If I remember correctly, I believe the developer of Clinic has said that another print run of that game would be happening. I was lucky enough to grab a copy and the first expansion. Really good game overall. I've had no luck finding the second expansion so far.
I would like to see the update :) of this movie :) If something changed in your mind : Some games to think of : - Hansa Teutonica - Arkwright - Dominant Species - Nippon/Railroad revolution over Madeira :) - Food chain magnate - Here I Stand/Virgin Queen - Through the Ages - Age of Steam - 19XX series - Coin Series games :) - Troyes - Russian Railroads (German/Amerian...) -...
of the games you mention, i wouldn't consider railroad revolutions, russian railraods or troyes to be especially heavy games. gloomhaven would push it's way in for sure, and maybe anachrony (haven't played retail edition though). might be a few other changes, but heavy games we really really really love are a rarity. we're more mid weighters :)
had my first play of alchemists ytd, only did 4 experiments and figured out exactly what 3 ingredients were by making an assumption that the guy that had 6 experiments by turn 3 was correct about his first theory (and the gambit paid off) had 3 theories published by turn 4 also, i noticed that shooting for artifacts was a good way to score points too had 21 VP from artifacts alone (grabbed VIP card first turn, and was able to maintain at least 2 purchases per phase)
Athlas sounds interesting, and quite different from what I'd normally expect to entertain. I might have to hunt down a copy. Honestly, as a newcomer, most of the rest seem a bit much for me right now, but I think I could get my head round that and really have fun.
Thanks Rahdo. Great video. A suggestion: when you do these top 10 videos, it would help if you could show clips and images from the game being played. Set up, shot of components, etc. It would help give some context while you are describing the game. Thank so much!
Agricola is one of my all time favourites. Buuuuut....... It can be highly frustrating when someone's larger family continually claims the "go first next turn" tile
In the Year of the Dragon is far more stressful than any other Feld game. In his other games, you can get away with a few misplanned moves because there is a multitude of ways to regain the point loss. However, with ItYotD, a poor decision is returned with immediate failure and great potential for losing right away. Still one of the best Felds overall, though games like Bruges, Macao and The Castles of Burgundy are better for less brain-burning fun.
This has quite likely already been mentioned by someone else in the comments, but 'Zhang Guo' is pronounced (roughly) as 'Jong Gor' - its the Mandarin name for 'China'.
Zhan Guo is not Zhong Guo. Zhan Guo is the period of the "Warring States" whereas Zhong Guo is the country of China. "Zhan" can be a battle, war, etc., and "Zhong" literally means middle.
Surprised Athlas is rated so heavy. May have to give it a second look. I wrote it off as another tactical skirmish (dudes on an [abstracted] map) game. Thought Shipyard would make the list as well.
Elias Khalil love shipyard and it's certainly heavy, but TBH the objective cards you get up front really help streamline decisions and keep us on point, so the decisions are a lot less tough in that game than any of these 10 :) i could do a whole 'nother video on this topic about why certain games didn't make the list. hmm, that's a good podcast subject! :)
***** Very true. I guess Aquasphere has the same issue where the robot programming paths guide you so you really only have a couple of choices. I'm yet to try In the Year of the Dragon, but I'm eager too. Strangely for a Feld, it's the theme that attracts me. If you decide to do a podcast on depth vs complexity, I'd be first in line to hear it. Thanks for the video. Great job as always :-D
@@rahdo You're right, i think it has been designed as a 1vs1 game BUT they did an amazing job expanding the possibilities to 2vs2, solo and cooperative ! This is one of my favorite solo game.
Richard. What about Forge War? Do you not like it as much as any of these? Not heavy enough? Or do you not consider it "released"? I got my copy last week and I am chomping at the bit to get it to the table!!! I may have to play the solo version tonight. Have you played the final version yet? I am curios if there are enough (any?) differences in it versus the version you played, to move it up or down on your favorite games list?
Shayne Judkins well i haven't played it for probably 10 months, and i never had final rules when i did play the prototoype, so it's hard to say. i dimly recall thinking the game was epic in scope and escalation, but that the gameplay was probably comparable to something like Le Havre, which I'd put in the medium-to-heavish realm :)
For me both Kanban and Madeira are simple games but have to complicated rules, so the return of investment is low in teaching them and play them. Brass, Agricola, InTYD are much more rewarding. I decided i would always rather play Bora Bora over Madeira, and and any other workerplacment over Kanban. Hoping the new Kraftwagen will be my go to car game for me:) ZhanGuo is deep and complex and addictive. Thanks for the list!
Bijan Ajamlou I personally don't find the rules too complicated. In fact, for a game with as many moving parts as Kanban has, I think the rules are extremely well written. Furthermore, after you have played once, the rule-set is very intuitive and easy to teach. Same can be said for Vinhos. But I do understand people's preferences for how rules are laid out and that some may be a turn off. I share your optimism for Kraftwagen - guess we'll wait and see!
Bijan Ajamlou I actually love Madeira. It's one of my favourite games of all time. I'm suprised Terra Mystica didn't make the cut - after playing TM I do feel like i've worked in a coal mine for the last 2-3 hours (I've played TM 40-50 times so I know it well). Also - Brass is the best game in the world, Agricola - not so much.
Daniel Reed it's a heavy game, no doubt, but so many decisions are driven by the state of the board, which doesn't change much over the course of the game. once you've got a target to pursue, the game focus really narrows, we find :)
Different strokes for different folks...I don't find Agrciola to be that heavy or the choices I make when playing that complicated. While in Trajan I am always trying to min/max and get as many Trajan's and combo's as I can. I find when I play Trajan I get why more AP and the game just starts to feel heavy and each turn feels more important, especially when you factor in that your turns determine the length of the game. Just my humble opinion.
***** Actually, you've mentioned the "stick with to the plan" aspect in Atlas also. So I presume you are more inclined towards strategy rather than tactics ( while I am on the opposite side of the spectrum ). Also, and this might be off-topic, speaking about complex games, I've bought Middle-Earth Quest thanks to your runthrough and it quickly became one of my favorite games. You have my thanks!
Trajan suffers heavily from a lack of choice if you make poor choices. It is actually too unforgiving, much more so than in the year of the dragon. Games where you suffer from point loss, economy loss, army loss etc are fine, but when you suffer in the form of autonomy (as in Trajan) it just sucks. When I am unable to do anything but the same action for three turns in a row, that's not punishing, it's bad design.
You ought too try some of the wargame titles they can make your head hurt I'm more into the medium to easy games these days .advanced squad leader now how is that fun that many rules
I feel like you overstate the strategic value of the cards in Agricola. Obviously a couple of the cards are going to be very important in making some of your actions more efficient, but I disagree that the outcome of your strategy will depend on how you plan to put out those cards. Usually it's pretty obvious which cards are vital. The rest of the game depends of efficient actions. Getting extra workers early, creating a food engine and figuring out how to maximize points, which can but doesn't have to depend on the cards (farming, housing etc).
the elements you mention in the final sentence are all 100% dependent on what cards you draft for as part of the start of the game. i've won games with only 3 family members, or with no livestock, etc. the cards are everything in this game :)
I suppose they can be if you make them so. And perhaps with two players it's different because it's easier to play occupations (highly coveted spots). For me, you must focus on worker placement and use one or two of the cards to make your life easier. I never meant that the cards don't play a big role, it's just that you made them out to be the core, the quintessential part of the game and that I disagree with, especially the 100% part. I've won games where I only played one card (though examples such as this don't offer much because they're not representative).
creepyshadow yeah, that's a super heavy one, it could very well have made the list if we like it and kept it. i strongly considered urban sprawl for the list as well...
***** I think I would put Russian Railroads ahead of some of these other games because, while not a complex game, some of the better strategies can be quite intricate. I thought 400 or so was a pretty competitive score until my adventure to Prezcon and discovered there is a whole other layer to it that I didn't know existed. I am surprised you guys didn't like Nippon! I personally liked it a little more than I did Madeira.
Thanks Rahdo - great stuff. I'm really enjoying Lacerda's games though it's hard to find others with interest. :) CO2 is popular with my group. Athlas is a nice surprise - looking forward to that runthrough. Also - this was a great podcast on heuristics (strategic depth) that you/r viewers may enjoy. ludology.libsyn.com/ludology-episode-97-rules-of-thumb
regatul jocurilor if i liked it enough to own it (it's not a very good 2p game we found), it might have been, though TBH, i'm not sure even then it would have been because the game does so much player guiding via the objectives and racial abilities...
***** Right, but would be nice to add "My top 10 ...." or "Top 10 ..... I own" :). Anyway great video, cause I guess I would check at least 2 games from that list.
2020 version of this please. Top 10 might be filled with vital lacerda games 🤣
this might be something i get to, since it's been 5 years. but in the meantime, if you just do an advanced search on boardgamegeek for everything username: rahdo owns with a weight of at least 3.9 (with at least 20 people voting for that) and you get the results! :) www.boardgamegeek.com/geeksearch.php?action=search&advsearch=1&objecttype=boardgame&q=&include%5Bdesignerid%5D=&geekitemname=&geekitemname=&include%5Bpublisherid%5D=&range%5Byearpublished%5D%5Bmin%5D=&range%5Byearpublished%5D%5Bmax%5D=&range%5Bminage%5D%5Bmax%5D=&floatrange%5Bavgrating%5D%5Bmin%5D=&floatrange%5Bavgrating%5D%5Bmax%5D=&range%5Bnumvoters%5D%5Bmin%5D=&floatrange%5Bavgweight%5D%5Bmin%5D=3.9&floatrange%5Bavgweight%5D%5Bmax%5D=&range%5Bnumweights%5D%5Bmin%5D=20&colfiltertype=owned&searchuser=rahdo&range%5Bminplayers%5D%5Bmax%5D=&range%5Bmaxplayers%5D%5Bmin%5D=&playerrangetype=normal&range%5Bleastplaytime%5D%5Bmin%5D=&range%5Bplaytime%5D%5Bmax%5D=&B1=Submit
...although, not in countdown format...
@@rahdo thanks very much for this. I discovered vital lacerda's games through your channel and I can't thank you enough for that. Looking forward to more of your run throughs 😁
"For the next, what, half hour...."
Video time 48:43
Never change Richard. Never change.
I will always admire how fast you talk and how much information you handle in every video. Amazing !
Daniel Solis Yea and he talks understandably
Depth of In the Year of the Dragon is to be found not just in that you have to plan ahead many months (rounds), but also in that you have to flexibly plan, in order to adapt your strategy to other players' moves, because they're too planning upon the same bases as you. It's deep and complex not because of its mechanism or rules, that are simple and hugely elegant, but because of the difficulty in finding the right BALANCE between "what" and "when", between how powerful you need to take that action and when you've got to take it, and this balance is greatly reflected in the choice of the master or apprentice during the person phase. Great game. Glad you put it in the list, I agree with your opinions.
Thanks for another great video. An enjoyable list. I think of games with the richness and depth you describe as "complex" and games with lots of rules, intricacies, and that are hard to understand as "complicated."
"A well-crafted baguette fresh out of the oven is complex. But a curry/onion/green olive/poppy/cheese bread is complicated."
Love how you keep repeating how you shouldn't keep repeating yourself!
Chris Phillips it's a bad habit :)
For awhile now I've wondered if maybe BGG should have 2 separate ratings for heavyness: one strictly for a game's strategic depth and another for its rules complexity
Anima Mundi i would back that initiative:)
Agricola definitely does my head in every time I play it. I always end up looking at my hand of cards and then after about a minute I start talking to myself.
"Now if this requires that occupation, I will need to take that occupation which requires an extra three food. Then if I can build that, I can plant lettuce there to get a point. But I can't do that with only three workers, so I need to expand the house and get more food..."
Anybody who plays the game knows these problems.
Top ten light games please next. Keep up the great work
A few things that suprised me:
Dragon Petz no being in the list
Brass and Zhanguo being harder than Kanban (haven't played it but it looked so complex, I'll have to buy it XD)
Alchemists being in this list, I thought it was a gateway-mid game
Thanks a lot for this Top 10!
Be aware that Alchemists is not a Worker placement game. One of the key elements of a WP is that you deny the other player the action, that is not true in Alchemists.
And I would have expected Le Havre when you mentioned single Worker, but I agree that it is not that heavy.
Finally thanks that two games I helped develop made the list on spot 4 and 1.
Matthias Nagy there are limited worker spaces in alchemists, so you implicitly do deny actions to other players. getting first dibs on actions is hugely important, and not everyone can do that.
though tbh, i disagree that it's a key distinction, actually, but that's a topic for another time :)
***** It can only be important for selling potions and buying artifacts, where one can loose an action. But even for selling potions you bid after the placement. And 90% of the artifacts are not worth their money. :)Fact is that BGG defines WP as denying actions, as thats how it was named when it came up in Caylus and Agricola.
Matthias Nagy worker placement is also hugely important for student testing, gathering componnets, and publishing works, as it's first come first served, and if you arrive late, you might be out of what you need, so there's actual denial on the majority of actions in the game.
also, i'm afraid BGG defintions aren't going to help your argument as to what worker placement is either, because it clearly says "There is usually(*) a limit on the number of times a single action may be drafted each round. Once that limit is reached, an action can no longer be taken until a subsequent round or until the action space is no longer occupied by a worker. As such, not all actions can be taken by all players in a given round"
Notice the "usually", which means it's not a 100% requirement. This is why games like Myrmes, Madeira, Walnut Grove, Name of the Rose, Perirobis, Fantasy Frontier, and many more are all labeled as worker placement, even though none of them feature denial. Also, BGG lists Alchemists as a worker placement title, so again, citing BGG hurts your argument instead of helps it, I'm afraid :)
I'd say, the most complicated game I have is Archipelago. There are kind of 2 boards going on at once and with tons of cards that gives you abilities. It is a lot to keep track and tons of rules to teach. I still love playing it and have lots of fun. I only played it twice, because all my friends say its too complex to play.
Your rationale for considering Athlas a board/hex-based MTG is very similar to how Mage Wars was advertised. It was the game (in tandem with Summoner Wars) that was to pull Magic fans to tabletop gaming and away from the high-pressured money sink that is collectible card gaming.
However, it didn't work as planned. While I never got too heavy into either "Wars" game, Athlas is still a curiosity for me. Played Magic from '95 to the onset of planeswalkers as playable characters and I am wondering if Athlas would scratch the itch that got me into MTG to begin with.
TyphoidBryan i get that's how mage wars was positioned, but in the end, you're still engaged in a very straightforward "smash your opponent in the head by rolling dice" fest. Nothing wrong with that, but nowhere near the depth of MTG. Athlas, with its capture the flag objective, shared life pools, focus on terraforming and lots of other oddball effects, fixed card queue, deterministic combat (can you imagine how crappy dice would be in Magic the Gathering) really elevates the whole thing to very heavy levels (for us anyway).
My video for it should be up this week hopefully :)
This makes me happy. I own some of them and Vinhos and Madeira are among them. I hated In the Year of the Dragon and usually enjoy Feld games and (it did not seem terribly heavy). For another subject I recently bought my first console a 3ds and I like it very much. My favorite game so far is Fire Emblem which feels board game-ish, my second favorite is Shinobi, and my third is Monster Hunter 4. I haven't gotten into Animal Crossing New Leaf much yet but it is charming.
Will you do a Top 10 light games list sometime? I'm not much of a heavy gamer
thomassaurus not a bad idea :)
thomassaurus if you haven't you should check out his Top 10 Gateway Games video
I'm just getting to this video. I wholeheartedly agree with "In The Year of the Dragon". Good choice. For the record, Trajan left me flat. Overly complex. Dragon: well executed.
Richard, I believe the info cards can handle a playlist, so if you put a playlist together of the runthroughs for these games, you can put that in there instead of just individual videos.
Jason Maynard true. might do that for next top 10 :)
If I remember correctly, I believe the developer of Clinic has said that another print run of that game would be happening. I was lucky enough to grab a copy and the first expansion. Really good game overall. I've had no luck finding the second expansion so far.
Gaming With GeoNever mind. I just did a quick search and the developer stated yesterday, that he has no plans to make any more.
Surprised that Dungeon Petz did not make the list. I know you guys love the game, and despite the misleading title of the game, is incredibly complex!
Spazz Fist yup, pretty complex, and plenty deep too, not as much as these 10, for us :)
I would like to see the update :) of this movie :) If something changed in your mind :
Some games to think of :
- Hansa Teutonica
- Arkwright
- Dominant Species
- Nippon/Railroad revolution over Madeira :)
- Food chain magnate
- Here I Stand/Virgin Queen
- Through the Ages
- Age of Steam
- 19XX series
- Coin Series games :)
- Troyes
- Russian Railroads (German/Amerian...)
-...
of the games you mention, i wouldn't consider railroad revolutions, russian railraods or troyes to be especially heavy games. gloomhaven would push it's way in for sure, and maybe anachrony (haven't played retail edition though). might be a few other changes, but heavy games we really really really love are a rarity. we're more mid weighters :)
had my first play of alchemists ytd, only did 4 experiments and figured out exactly what 3 ingredients were by making an assumption that the guy that had 6 experiments by turn 3 was correct about his first theory (and the gambit paid off)
had 3 theories published by turn 4
also, i noticed that shooting for artifacts was a good way to score points too
had 21 VP from artifacts alone (grabbed VIP card first turn, and was able to maintain at least 2 purchases per phase)
Athlas sounds interesting, and quite different from what I'd normally expect to entertain. I might have to hunt down a copy. Honestly, as a newcomer, most of the rest seem a bit much for me right now, but I think I could get my head round that and really have fun.
i seriously wish we lived in the same country so we could play games all the time :)
gofookyourself Dude same
"best-laid plans of lice and men..."...profound words, Richard, profound words!
A lot of games are so complex and rule heavy it makes them unplayable .
Thanks Rahdo. Great video. A suggestion: when you do these top 10 videos, it would help if you could show clips and images from the game being played. Set up, shot of components, etc. It would help give some context while you are describing the game. Thank so much!
Jim Hart that would be good, but it'd be a whole lot of extra work! :(
Agricola is one of my all time favourites. Buuuuut....... It can be highly frustrating when someone's larger family continually claims the "go first next turn" tile
This list needs a 2022 update :)
how about a 2020 update :)
czcams.com/video/X40YLbEToFM/video.html
Clinic Deluxe now on Kickstarter!!
In the Year of the Dragon is far more stressful than any other Feld game. In his other games, you can get away with a few misplanned moves because there is a multitude of ways to regain the point loss. However, with ItYotD, a poor decision is returned with immediate failure and great potential for losing right away.
Still one of the best Felds overall, though games like Bruges, Macao and The Castles of Burgundy are better for less brain-burning fun.
Thanks for the video. I also watched you Shipyard review last night. Why was you so exhausted at the end? Was it because the game was so 'heavy'?
This has quite likely already been mentioned by someone else in the comments, but 'Zhang Guo' is pronounced (roughly) as 'Jong Gor' - its the Mandarin name for 'China'.
+Stephen Barrell Whoops, 'Zhanguo' - I'm more used to hearing Chinese than I am to writing it...
Zhan Guo is not Zhong Guo.
Zhan Guo is the period of the "Warring States" whereas Zhong Guo is the country of China.
"Zhan" can be a battle, war, etc., and "Zhong" literally means middle.
so now... medium-heavy games please ;)
Surprised Athlas is rated so heavy. May have to give it a second look. I wrote it off as another tactical skirmish (dudes on an [abstracted] map) game.
Thought Shipyard would make the list as well.
Elias Khalil love shipyard and it's certainly heavy, but TBH the objective cards you get up front really help streamline decisions and keep us on point, so the decisions are a lot less tough in that game than any of these 10 :)
i could do a whole 'nother video on this topic about why certain games didn't make the list. hmm, that's a good podcast subject! :)
***** Very true. I guess Aquasphere has the same issue where the robot programming paths guide you so you really only have a couple of choices. I'm yet to try In the Year of the Dragon, but I'm eager too. Strangely for a Feld, it's the theme that attracts me.
If you decide to do a podcast on depth vs complexity, I'd be first in line to hear it.
Thanks for the video. Great job as always :-D
Hi Rahdo, have you ever tried Chip Theory games ? Too Many Bones or Cloudspire ? It might suit you as tactical games. Cloudspire has [almost] no dice.
i'll try TMB someday, but cloudspire isn't too appealing since it's fairly PvPish i believe (or am i thinking about something else?)
@@rahdo You're right, i think it has been designed as a 1vs1 game BUT they did an amazing job expanding the possibilities to 2vs2, solo and cooperative ! This is one of my favorite solo game.
Richard. What about Forge War? Do you not like it as much as any of these? Not heavy enough? Or do you not consider it "released"? I got my copy last week and I am chomping at the bit to get it to the table!!! I may have to play the solo version tonight. Have you played the final version yet? I am curios if there are enough (any?) differences in it versus the version you played, to move it up or down on your favorite games list?
Shayne Judkins well i haven't played it for probably 10 months, and i never had final rules when i did play the prototoype, so it's hard to say. i dimly recall thinking the game was epic in scope and escalation, but that the gameplay was probably comparable to something like Le Havre, which I'd put in the medium-to-heavish realm :)
These seem very complex games.. I would have picked Ultima Chess variant there somewhere. At least I can never understand how to play that.
For me both Kanban and Madeira are simple games but have to complicated rules, so the return of investment is low in teaching them and play them. Brass, Agricola, InTYD are much more rewarding. I decided i would always rather play Bora Bora over Madeira, and and any other workerplacment over Kanban. Hoping the new Kraftwagen will be my go to car game for me:) ZhanGuo is deep and complex and addictive. Thanks for the list!
Bijan Ajamlou You might want to watch for Automania as well, as another potential auto industry game :)
Bijan Ajamlou I personally don't find the rules too complicated. In fact, for a game with as many moving parts as Kanban has, I think the rules are extremely well written. Furthermore, after you have played once, the rule-set is very intuitive and easy to teach. Same can be said for Vinhos. But I do understand people's preferences for how rules are laid out and that some may be a turn off. I share your optimism for Kraftwagen - guess we'll wait and see!
Bijan Ajamlou I actually love Madeira. It's one of my favourite games of all time. I'm suprised Terra Mystica didn't make the cut - after playing TM I do feel like i've worked in a coal mine for the last 2-3 hours (I've played TM 40-50 times so I know it well). Also - Brass is the best game in the world, Agricola - not so much.
Zbig Misz TM not so good with 2p :)
Surprised Trajan is not on the list...I find it way more deep then Agricola.
Daniel Reed it's a heavy game, no doubt, but so many decisions are driven by the state of the board, which doesn't change much over the course of the game. once you've got a target to pursue, the game focus really narrows, we find :)
Different strokes for different folks...I don't find Agrciola to be that heavy or the choices I make when playing that complicated. While in Trajan I am always trying to min/max and get as many Trajan's and combo's as I can. I find when I play Trajan I get why more AP and the game just starts to feel heavy and each turn feels more important, especially when you factor in that your turns determine the length of the game. Just my humble opinion.
***** Actually, you've mentioned the "stick with to the plan" aspect in Atlas also. So I presume you are more inclined towards strategy rather than tactics ( while I am on the opposite side of the spectrum ).
Also, and this might be off-topic, speaking about complex games, I've bought Middle-Earth Quest thanks to your runthrough and it quickly became one of my favorite games. You have my thanks!
Trajan suffers heavily from a lack of choice if you make poor choices. It is actually too unforgiving, much more so than in the year of the dragon.
Games where you suffer from point loss, economy loss, army loss etc are fine, but when you suffer in the form of autonomy (as in Trajan) it just sucks. When I am unable to do anything but the same action for three turns in a row, that's not punishing, it's bad design.
Just wondering why you prefer Agricola to Caverna or if you just think Agricola is a heavy game whereas Caverna isn't? Thanks :)
Sam Houghton i talked about it at length here: czcams.com/video/BOIBmeg1lQY/video.html
Thank you so much for getting back to me! I love your channel! Just keep doing what you're doing! :)
10 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/31260/agricola
9 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/156840/clinic
8 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/31594/year-dragon
7 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/109276/kanban-drivers-edition
6 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/28720/brass-lancashire
5 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/161970/alchemists
4 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/160495/zhanguo
3 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/158861/athlas-duel-divinity
2 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/42052/vinhos
1 boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/95527/madeira
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lpB4q2J7r8FBP4owRVPLULzROHx_TWtFWS1DhteCxxU/edit?usp=sharing
Zhanguo is wonderful
Love Madeira!!!
Me too!!! But it is a brain burner! But the decision are deep and it's a pretty rewarding game once you get it all straight in your head.
You didn't have twilight imperium :( But some great games
I am curious, with so many games on your shelf and so many games coming out, how do u find time to play your fave older games ??
cindy tang i generally don't :( maybe once a week we get to play an older one that we love
Awww...Tatz quite sad.... all those classic games left on the shelves collecting dust...
Will you try Three Kingdom Redux, which is an excellent thematic heavy heavy game? But it is a 3 player game thou...
Wayne The Lonely Gamer yup that kills it for us
***** Ya, I would think so, which is unfortunate
A-Grik-O-la.... and here I was pronouncing it Eh-Gree-Cola... no wonder the board game shop people had no idea what I was talking about.
What about Twilight Struggle? I find its the most complicated game in my collection.
***** great game, but we didn't enjoy it at all, so away it went :)
Agree, we played it 3 times and never could make till the end.
Curious where Terra Mystica falls on this list. Not heavy, or not enjoyed?
terra mystica was not a very good 2p experience, so the latter :)
@@rahdo Yea, its not great at 2p. I've found 3p to be the ideal, but it definitely feeds off interactions. But at higher counts I love it!
You ought too try some of the wargame titles they can make your head hurt I'm more into the medium to easy games these days .advanced squad leader now how is that fun that many rules
I feel like you overstate the strategic value of the cards in Agricola. Obviously a couple of the cards are going to be very important in making some of your actions more efficient, but I disagree that the outcome of your strategy will depend on how you plan to put out those cards. Usually it's pretty obvious which cards are vital. The rest of the game depends of efficient actions. Getting extra workers early, creating a food engine and figuring out how to maximize points, which can but doesn't have to depend on the cards (farming, housing etc).
the elements you mention in the final sentence are all 100% dependent on what cards you draft for as part of the start of the game. i've won games with only 3 family members, or with no livestock, etc. the cards are everything in this game :)
I suppose they can be if you make them so. And perhaps with two players it's different because it's easier to play occupations (highly coveted spots). For me, you must focus on worker placement and use one or two of the cards to make your life easier. I never meant that the cards don't play a big role, it's just that you made them out to be the core, the quintessential part of the game and that I disagree with, especially the 100% part. I've won games where I only played one card (though examples such as this don't offer much because they're not representative).
Dominate Species didn't make the cut, brutal decision making and critical timing.
creepyshadow yeah, that's a super heavy one, it could very well have made the list if we like it and kept it. i strongly considered urban sprawl for the list as well...
I am curious if Russian Railroads or Nippon would've made it onto this list, in your estimate, had they been out when this was made?
+TheGreatHamEl russian railroads isn't particuarily heavy i think... just a medium weight. nippon we didn't enjoy enough to make the list :)
***** I think I would put Russian Railroads ahead of some of these other games because, while not a complex game, some of the better strategies can be quite intricate. I thought 400 or so was a pretty competitive score until my adventure to Prezcon and discovered there is a whole other layer to it that I didn't know existed. I am surprised you guys didn't like Nippon! I personally liked it a little more than I did Madeira.
this joke with nippon 4 victory points with maxed coal production \o/
Is Ora et Labora at nr 11? ;)
hmm, it'd be in top15 i reckon
Thanks Rahdo - great stuff. I'm really enjoying Lacerda's games though it's hard to find others with interest. :) CO2 is popular with my group.
Athlas is a nice surprise - looking forward to that runthrough.
Also - this was a great podcast on heuristics (strategic depth) that you/r viewers may enjoy.
ludology.libsyn.com/ludology-episode-97-rules-of-thumb
What is your favorite S Feld game?
castles of burgundy :)
I have the card and dice game. I guess I should get the ‘regular’ game too.
CO2 is one of my new favorites
Martin Wallace showing up on this list? Say it ain't so! (Being completely sarcastic. lol)
Hey, Rahdo. Where do you rank epic Forge War in heaviness?
Fnar79 hard to say, haven't palyed it since the prototype over a year ago. really hoping to try the retail version someday! :)
Ooooh. A list of games to never buy or play. Thanks.
Arkham horror?
Arhaios Shaman that would be an example of heaviness through extreme complexity, and we're not big fans :)
Shouldn't Terra Mystica be in this list?
regatul jocurilor if i liked it enough to own it (it's not a very good 2p game we found), it might have been, though TBH, i'm not sure even then it would have been because the game does so much player guiding via the objectives and racial abilities...
***** Brilliant comment. My thoughts exactly.
Those games are not heavy, maybe couple of them. Heavy games are like COIN series and stuff like that. Seems you haven't play really heavy games ;)
DentargPL to quote myself from 2:40 in this very video: "the heaviest game *that we own*"
***** I know, but title suggest something else :)
DentargPL never judge a book by its cover :)
***** Right, but would be nice to add "My top 10 ...." or "Top 10 ..... I own" :). Anyway great video, cause I guess I would check at least 2 games from that list.