Changing the firing order from 1-4-3-2 to 1-2-3-4 - what will happen?
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- čas přidán 16. 02. 2024
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And this did make for some noticeable changes that hopefully someone clever in the comments could perhaps explain.
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Anyone not aware of cam phasing characteristics will not be impressed, but to those of us that do, are extremely impressed with this outcome . That was a masterful job at making this little Lada fire up and run ... And pretty good taboot . There was no way you were going to do this without a lot of counter weight imbalances, but I am extremely impressed guys . :)
I was thinking pretty much the same.
@@jojohnson215copycat
@@jojohnson215yes I said to myself just the other day....the phasing will be the issue.
I've only got a rudimentary understanding and I'm impressed.
Does this mean the cam is going to open the valves in the original firing order? While the pistons are all in the wrong place?
Garage 54 doing more work on ladas than Lada's R&D department.
Not to do list, engineers taking notes furiously.
Most of ladas r&d was set on how to cheapen down fiats r&d
Bold of you to assume Lada has a r&d department.
They had one? lol
Plot twist garage 54 is ladas r&d facility
Weld two lada engine blocks together to make a 90 degree V8 and modify the crank to be a crossplane. See where that takes you.
I would like to see an I8 actually. It sounds close enough to a V8 and would likely be easier to pull off albeit harder to fit in a car. They made an I6 this way at one point.
@@DJ2226they have also welded 4 engines together to make an i16
yessssssssssssss
Pretty sure this is what Triumph did with the Stag.
They would have to make a new V8 crankshaft. They should weld 2 blocks in a V8 conflagration. but combine engines after welding with 2 planetary ans 1 sun gear like the old Chrysler multi bank engines. They could use both engine and cams.
you should make a big bang engine. ignite on 1+4 at the same time, turn 180 degree and ignite 2+3, turn 360 degree.
Yeah that would be cool too
I think they’ve done this before? Either way, it makes the engine really hard to start (because 2 cylinders are building compression and hitting tdc at the same time) and it doesn’t want to idle for the same reason and the fact that it only gets one firing impulse per complete crankshaft rotation.
Or all 4 at once
I believe that might sound like a triumph twin?
Harley Davidson mod!
The vibration issue is also part of the nature of having this setup, as you have weight shifting from end to end depending on the stroke of 1&3 and 2&4 which upsets the balance, so one pair up, the front lifts with inertia & rear drops, then the other pair comes up and the inertia shifts so front drops and rear lifts, this is why most multi-cylinder engines are set up the way they are, keeping it all in balance... :)
With the normal arrangement where the middle two pistons move in the opposite direction to the end two pistons, the rocking couple produced by the front two cylinders cancels out the rocking couple of the rear cylinders. With the 1,2,3,4 firing order the two rocking couples add together instead of cancelling each other out. This is the cause of the increased vibration.
@@cedriclynchcan’t we use offset weights on the flywheel to fix that
@@miguelgameiro8063 The problem is that the unbalanced force is rotating in the opposite direction to the rotation of the crankshaft. It can be balanced with a weighted shaft geared to turn in the opposite direction; this is quite a common practice in motorcycle engines and has been used in some car engines such as the Ford V4 of the 1960s and 70s. This has a crankshaft with four throws so as to give equal 180 degree firing intervals, giving also a mechanical imbalance that could only be corrected by the use of a weighted shaft turning in the opposite direction.
@@cedriclynch balancing shafts fix this ? Or am I getting this wrong?
@@miguelgameiro8063 Yes, it is possible to fix almost any balance problem with a balancing shaft (or sometimes two shafts) turning in the opposite direction to the crankshaft. There is another problem that affects an inline four-cylinder engine because the connecting rods are of finite length and so the acceleration of the pistons is greater at the top of the stroke than it is at the bottom. Most makers overcome this by using rubber mounts, but one or two have added two weighted balance shafts turning in opposite directions to each other at twice the speed of the crankshaft.
"Balance has left the chat" hahaha!
This is similar to Ford's Voodoo engine setup here. Driving4answers has made a video about this and the engine has both Primary and Secondary imbalances, hence the intense vibration engine operations.
Yea maybe place crank end to end
And another awesome upload from Garage 54, thank you fellas.
And thank you BMI Russian for the voice over and translation, you rock!
You know what is more awesome? The fact that these Lada motors still exist and work in 2024. :) In a hypothetical doomsday scenario, Lada Nivas, Rivas, Toyota Camrys, Honda Civics/Accords and Buick Centurys will be the only cars on the road in the future with a few Nissan cars and diesel Chevy trucks. Similar to roaches (but in a good way), these cars never die.
@@thatguyalex2835 So true
Nissans are pretty unreliable from what I hear. Not that you'd be too likely to be driving anything for very long in a real doomsday scenario. Probably wouldn't be viable after about a year tops.
With BMI, I'm surprised that our friends aren't speaking like King Charles - yet.
@@thatguyalex2835 You missed some south american cars, we have a lot of cars here that are very bulletproof.
I love Garage 54
Anytime one of my buddies says “what would happen if you did this or that”
I show them garage 54
❤❤❤❤❤
My man behind the wheel was flabbergasted 😂
You guys are wizards with engine internals! You've hacked up quite a few engines for crazy projects!
It's amazing what can be done if you just do it and not follow the it wont work theory these guys do it differently than any other youtube channel I watch
@@scoobysean555 Yeah, they use most basic way to make it work and it actually works.
That was great! thanks garage 54. There are not many people that want to chop up cranks and cams to do this type of thing. Wood pistons concrete tires 2 wheel conversion. ONLY GARAGE 54!
I love these in-depth engine videos. Making wacky tires is funny and all, but these videos are the true reason your channel is great!
Turn a flat plane crankshaft into a cross plane crankshaft!
They do that in the motorcycle world.
@@Flies2FLLSuzuki does that correct? Isn’t that why they sound very very similar to a crossplane V8?
@@TheMrDariusYamaha R1
@@TheMrDarius I think they sound vaguely like a V8. Yamaha does this on the YZF-R1, if I remember correctly.
They turned a cross plane into a flat plane crank.
your ability to break and weld the crank shaft and cams together and have it work (sometimes eventually) perfectly never ceases to amaze me. and apparently you even managed to improve it while still keeping it basically stock.
an idea would try replacing the engine oil with something like Hoppes9 lubricating oil (or the local variant you can get your hands on)
😂
This channel is the most awesome mechanics channel ever made!
I've watched you for several years now! You are true hot rodders! things don't always work (clear engine lol) but your out there changing it up and thats hot rodding So Cool!
A classic Garage54 again. Love these experiments! 👍👍
"Lada midbang" configuration. (secretly expected yamaha like big-bang config).
p.s.violent vibration you get, is mostly from shifted rocking couple, not bacause imbalanced crank.
I'll bet Lada loves Garage 54 because of how they show what Lada's cars are capable of.
Never seases to amaze. Garage54 keeps giving !!!
This is awesome. Well done. I really want to see more turbo wrk. Cold air and forced air experiments
Can't help but notice the firering order mishap in the title but the thumbnail is done right 😂 you guys are wizards at this keep it up!
I was wondering if that was a mistake because the typo firing order is basically one after another but in reverse.
This is so cool, omfg... O_O I'm impressed by how smooth it is, considering you basically just welded it back together. And the fact that it pulls better is just amazing. Excellent work!
Yes very impressive work changing the cam timing and the crank work . good job guys you accomplished something here. does not have to be perfect to run the effort paid off keep working on it changing the cam timing was awesome kudos guys.
Awesome video guys!!! Maybe you will try this; cut cam and reweld cam so that cylinders (1 and 4 ) are on power stroke at the same time and same for cylinders (2 and 3) So basically it would seem like 2 big cylinders instead of 4 small cylinders
Some motorcycles are actually set up that way. They call it a "big bang" engine.
They tried a full 4 cylinder - 1 cylinder setup previously. It wasn't very successful. All 4 cylinders sucking in at the same time caused a huge restriction as to how much air they could draw in. A 2-2 setup may work better though.
@@iunnox666 yeah I have heard some refer to them as a “twingle” too (in two cylinder versions)
@@jackt883 yes I did see that. A 1/4 and 2/3 would be quite easy in comparison as they do not even need to touch the pistons, oil pan, crank, etc. Just rearrange the cam timing (cut and reweld) and ignition timing. Simple for Garage 54. 107%
Yeah that's true. 1 & 4 with 2 & 3. Bet it'd sound fantastic. 😂 Proper thumper.@@baby-sharkgto4902
This is an engine i've wanted to hear for a long time. Thank you for feeding my curiousity
Same!!
Solid!
Top KEK!
Peace be with you.
Wow 🤯 guy's are great.... I've said it before and will say it again. Love the experiments you guy's do👍👍
Oh my god! Congratulations from brazil
Now I want to see a 1 1 1 1 firing order. Might need a big fly wheel
already done
You mean 1+2+3+4?
czcams.com/video/CTWUcpHQfGo/video.htmlsi=DV_J6hEi33uI6UzG
Already done, was just a giant 1 cylinder engine with 4 pistons
Nice work there. To change the cams is just an amazing job. Very impressed.
U guys are crazy
And I love it
Keep up the good work
NICE! Thats the video I was waiting for. I really wanna se some more makeshift turbo / super chargeing for theese lada engines
Never thought why the firing order for a typical 4 cylinder engine is 1 3 4 2 but now l know insures a smoother engine operation but a very good experiment keep up the entertaining videos
It dates from 3 bearing model t type engines. There was, to say the least, a bit of flex potential in those cranks. The inner to outer close, outer to inner far pattern of 1342 used running load to counteract rocking couple in those unsupported webs. 1234 would have increased that "whip" between odd/even unsupported webs, not so good with the old spaghetti cranks, lol.
@@ludditeneaderthal That's the reason why all four cylinders have that firing order
@@lesklower7281 it has nothing to do with vibration, or "smooth running" though. It's longevity. A 180 degree flat plane crank doesn't care which 2 of the 4 throws are which phase, just so long as every next fire is opposed to the last. That can be balanced no matter what. Crank flex (and bearing journal/web) longevity is why the traditional 4 banger crank is split 14/23 for phases, and runs 1342 FO (inner close, outer far). You can overbuild a crank/mains combo to withstand 1234 and give long life, but there's no real advantage gained, and LOTS of disadvantage to doing so
@@ludditeneaderthalthat's why it called harmony balancing. even with harmonic balancer slapped on. same principle but different physic and logic
@HighAway rocking couple has nothing to do with harmonics, nor balance.
That was very impressive. Love what you guys can do .
I want to thank You. The videos are always very educational and hilariously Entertaining 👍
this channel is freaking great
Should do a crossplane crankshaft now
That was great! Thank you from New York!!
You guys are great! I love this kind of test much love!
You guys should use an oscilloscope to watch engine vibration and try to precisely ballance a lada engine and see if it's noticably nicer to drive!
It would be interesting to balance the crankshaft and repeat the test. That way the imbalance would only come from the firing order rather than the crank.
Yeah it would be Awesome to see the parts made just right for piston to valve timing too, then Dyno this to a stock engine.
I like the video before watching it.
What an interesting idea to do something people say not to do (for obvious reasons) but never see.
Thank you
Hey from America love the awesome engineering. You guys always do interesting projects
You guys should make your own performance camshaft 👍
Right on
I love it when he say's "If I'm totally honest I don't feel any dramatic changes". . . . IT'S STILL LOW POWER VIBRATING SHIT . . . ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I remember the LADA Taxi's back in the day. . . OMG . . . Smell of fuel and oil and bad ride . . . . No brakes . . . . . . ha ha ha ha
You have done a fantastic job guy's. . RESPECT TO YOU
Really cool ! Impressive work on that cam and crank
The title of the video says 1-4-3-2 but it should be 1-3-4-2 for the original firing order
The firing order 1432 would make it fire in sequence backwards.
I was wondering if that was an error or just how Ladas normally work. :)
Is shimming the main bearings (with food-grade aluminum foil) normal for a Lada?
My exact thinking
They're going for a specific clearance on an engine designed to run just long enough to make a video 😃
Shimming automotive engine bearings that way used to be more common, so for a car built under communism, I wouldn't be surprised if they were using shims at the factory. Probly not aluminum foil…unless shim stock supplies were low.
These guys neve disaponit, they always answer questions I had, and many I didn't even know I didn't know
G'day Garage54 & BMI,
Wow that is so cool, I love the engineering you do like this as it is Educational plus so much fun. It would be cool to get this Dyno Tested compared to standard.
I have some affinity with this engine, there is something different going on in my head & body that makes me all shaky too 😁.
When I was younger I suffered a head injury that is affecting my ballance & nerves, so I am all wobbly & shake similar to Pakinson's Disease.
Would be a little trickier, but you should make an engine where all 4 cylinders fire at once! 4 coils all triggered at the same time should do for the ignition.
Thay already did that one
@@JohnSmith-ef8nr ok thanks, I'll have to find it.
Crossplane with the same firing order would be interesting. Probably even more vibration with quite a different sound
It would be interesting to see it run with the clear intake on it to see how much the intake pulse on #4 robs some air-fuel mixture going into #1. That extreme spread between #4 and #1 is greater than the original #1 and #3 spread.
playing whack a mole with an inline 4. that was fun. A funny engine to play with is the boxer 4cyl. you can flip the cams 180..leave the crank in the same spot.. what used to be exhaust is now intake, etc. You'd be surprised how many say nothing is different...until you reveal the mark on the crank to show it. :)
i had a saturn s series that and the firing order was 4-1-2-3 they were basically indestructable engines they only die from running out of oil. the twin cam engines were common to burn valves though
That's NOT the firing order. That's just the way coils were labeled. Look up the actual firing order.
What about every 90 degrees have a cylinder fire?
Excellent video. Big thumbs up.
Another issue is the intake manifold. The single carburator struggles to feed the four cylinders in line like that. A two carb intake would help a lot.
Title is wrong. The order is 1342, but title says it'd be 1432.
dont forget to change your oil
Firing order changes as your oil gets dirtier
Of course. Also it does usually change on tuesdays and fridays. WTF?
I noticed the same
In Russia it's different
Great video guys, but I really think you should stop killing or improving Ladas, we're going to need them one day when all the new cars are broken and rusted.
I can't believe how good that runs! Impressive
You guys are crazy, I love it!
You should make all the cilinders fire at the same time. That would sound awesome 🫣
They already did that
Look up the 1 stroke engine.
try to make a 90deg. offset to the crank like yamaha ... this will give you a very unique sound and very strange torque curve for an inline engine ,)
This is awesome! Great job 👍
My dad and i worked on a vintage car made by Fabrique National (yes that FN) built in 1908 as the prototype of their production car... it had that firing order of 1-2-3-4 and it ran fine...
The title incorrectly states the original firing order as 1-4-3-2 instead of 1-3-4-2
Good catch.
Nice project guys. :) This is a strange firing order, but it works. G54 is my Top Gear alternative, as Top Gear is no longer around anymore. Can you guys make a rear-engine, front wheel drive Lada that uses a 5-cylinder DIY diesel engine and update the interior with a modern instrument cluster and nice seats? That would be the weirdest, and most awesome car ever. Would be perfect for road trips. Thanks for taking requests.
I haven't watched it much, but The Grand Tour is basically what Top Gear was.
Eith rear steering
Great job!
was scared for a second. Thought my favorite russian youtube channel started doing nfts. love yall and all yalls content. make a inline 8 lada engine with two lada blocks. be super cool
One problem with the 1-2-3-4 firing order is that it causes a torsional wave in the crankshaft which is difficult to dampen with a torsional damper and may cause crank failure.
Why would there be no wave with 1-4-3-2? It is firing in a line as well just the other way, correct?
@@1592159you're wrong , it doesn't make harmonic oscillations.
The other issue with 1234 is how the pressure waves move in the intake manifold
@@damienfournier1157 causes twisting and untwisting...as for pressure waves....think that through for a bit
Cutting and welding the crank will do that long before the vibration does
@@1592159 The title is incorrect, the original firing order is 1-3-4-2. You can see that when they point out that it's cast into the engine block.
Drives better than most new cars on the road 😂
! Great work fellas!!!!
really great trial. can,t be done by people wit no patient. you guys really patient.
This will cause a rocking motion similar to a three cylinder, due to the second order vibration. I doubt it has any more or less power or torque. And it should sound approximately the same.
Wouldn't more vibration = parasitic losses?
Came here to say this but glad you already did. I doubt the welding of the crankshaft made any difference in vibration they would notice in that old car at them low rpms. It's the rocking motion causing the vibration and that's why firing orders are how that are. Like you stated power and sound won't be changed it's still the same cylinders doing the same work at the same speed
The rocking couple is due to first order balance, not second. In a standard inline 4, primary balance is perfect, but secondary balance is as bad as possible, as all the cylinders are at either tdc or bdc, or within the middle of the stroke at any time. The second order balance with what has been done in this video is no better and no worse, however, since outside pistons are pushing in opposite directions they try to rotate the engine, the middle two pistons combat these forces slightly, but not entirely.
In the case of an inline three, second order balance is perfect, but the rocking couple still exists.
@@iunnox666 Marginally sure, but it wouldn't be anything overly significant. Balance shafts that can fix these sorts of vibration end up taking a lot more energy to run then they save. If there was a lot of energy lost it'd be seen in what absorbs the energy, the engine mounts. Since these aren't cooled they'd end up overheating very quickly if the amount of energy lost was significant.
@@isaacsmith5489 I think that is wrong. In this crankshaft, the lobes are still symmetrical, so first order vibration is no different. The imbalance comes due to second order vibration, which is caused by the fact that a piston moving from TDC moves downward quicker than a piston moving upward from BDC. Normally this canceles out, but since cylinders fire down the line, the first two induce second order, then the next two, and then back to the first pair. This induces rocking along a transverse axis, or an up and down motion of the output shaft.
Notification squad Have a great weekend!🔥🔥🔥
My buddy from work happens to be a mechanic and sometimes his son be wrench in with him. So cool!!
Awesome job guys...👍🏾💯
Do u honestly not own a timing light?
The more and more i've been watching you guys, the more and more i want one of these cars in the states. this is such a rad little ride. im sure at this point they are all thrashed hard tho.
You could also try looking for Fiat 124, as these Ladas were based/licenced from Fiat. I'd try and track down a Fiat 125, they were a more sportier version. There were also Spyder versions as well.
Now that is a mechanic ! Way to go ! 👍
Interesting project.... well done.
I think there are reasons why nobody does it this way For one, the rocking forces created by the combustion stroke impulse of #1 followed immediately by the compression and then combustion of #2 rather than being balanced to the other end. Most likely the main bearings would wear out quickly. I'm sure they tried this in the early days and put the idea in the dustbin.
I remember being in college and my tutor telling us that one of the main reasons we don't have a 1,2,3,4 firing order is because the shockwave produced from each combustion cycle could eventually throw the flywheel off the end of the block or shatter the casing. It would be interesting to see if this is true under prolonged running
very nice guys. go on. can you make an engine turn/work counter-clockwise? it would be very interesting. no matter of course what changes the gear box needs to push the car forward!
It's so strange seeing pistons 1&3 and 2&4 coming up at the same time instead of 1&4 and 2&3! Brilliant engineering 💪
You guys are so marvellous!!
You guys are great very smart good stuff I enjoy your videos so thanks guys
Watching my favorite criminally underrated channel❤
Next time on garage 54. Turbo charging our 1234 engine.. It's gonna be a BANG fellas.. lol
Another good one. Didn't think that was going to perform.
You guys are awesome love this
Very impressive! And greetings from America. Someone once told me that almost nobody makes a 4 cylinder engine larger than 2.5 liters, because the vibration would be too much.
Lots of 4 cylinders bigger than 2.5, more commonly diesels. Detroit Diesel Series 50 is an 8.5L 4 cyl.
@@82f100swb British Railways Southern Region used to have diesel-electric multiple unit trains built in the 1950s that had a four-cylinder turbocharged engine of about 62 litres, giving 600 horsepower at 850rpm. They hardly vibrated at all. You can find these on CZcams and listen to them, preferably with good headphones or speakers.
That impressive you guys made that work and made it look so easy, next you should make performance camshaft grind for it and supercharger 👍💯
You guys put alot of work i to these
Great Idea! Love it
It would have been interesting to see a compression test, just to confirm any cam timing changes affecting the torque etc.
Good idea ! I felt in the cutting and joining the cam they may have inadvertently been rephased advanced a few degrees, opening valves a bit earlier and producing the slight low rpm torque improvement that they noticed !
These guys are great!!