No matter how much you think you know, there's always something new to learn. I've been doing this for more than forty years and still discover new and better ways of doing things. Tom
All vises allow the work to rise when you clamp it (even my Kurt), so tapping the work down is a normal part of the procedure when milling. Glad you got some useful tips from the video.
Thank you for your very clear and straightforward video. No distracting music, unnecessary graphics and other attempts to be cool and funny. I learned what I needed to learn - totally new at this. Not only did I learn how to square everything, your additional hints that you mention in passing are very informative. It was like watching Penn and Teller show how they do their tricks. Obvious when you know how - but I didn't! Thanks again.
This is such an awesome bit of machine lore. I'm a hobby machinist, and don't do this often enough to totally memorize the process. But today is my nTh viewing (always come back for a refresher) and I think I may be finally 'getting' it! Thanks for all your good info, Tom!
Been a Tool Maker / CNC Programmer for 27years I watched this video and was like of course this is how u square a block I guess I thought everyone was taught 2 square blocks this way, until I read the comments and am blown away that there's machinist out there that never were taught this. Only diffrence I would say is I don't use a ball pien hammer I use a dead blow and after having 3sides milled I then put in 2 parallels instead of 1 but apart from that I've always used a pin if I don't have 2ground sides across from each other. Don't try and tap block down until u have a ground edge against non moving jaw and edge sitting on parallel u will fight a loosing battle is the only other tip I can give, allow the back jaw and pin in front 2square ur block until u have a milled surface 2sit on parallel. Nice vid.
This was exactly the method I just learned in my machinist class, and is outlined in the NIMS textbook. The only variation we learned was for milling sides 5 and 6: if the piece is a long rectangle you might not want too much standing up in a vise, so simply raise the bench and run the side of the end mill over the sides of the workpiece. Good video thank you!
Thanks Richard. My videos are definitely geared toward beginning students because that's who I worked with when I started teaching. It's a lot of fun to get back to teaching again. I am hard at work on a website that will make it much easier to browse the videos and offer something new that I call project tutorials where I provide drawings for a useful project and then build it start to finish. They will include many different machining processes and have different levels of difficulty. Tom
Thanks for the reply Sir. I haven't turned or milled since 8 years, but I sure miss doing it. Watching these videos brings back memories from school. I can smell the hot metal and coolant...
Thanks Vince. Side milling is a good option for long or thin parts, but only as a last resort. You''ll get a part that is more square if you face mill or fly-cut because you won't get the cutter deflection that you get when side milling. I normally side mill when squaring up plate stock. Glad you enjoyed the video. Tom
Thanks for taking the time to put these up! I just bought a little mini-mill, and I'm hungrily diving in to learn as much as I can about it, with the goal of some day being good enough to rate a real machine :P Looks like I just found the place to learn! Again, thanks a ton!
Never thought about using the parallel and wire like that. Thank you so much for taking the time to show us self-taught hacks another way of approaching things.
Tom, I have also been in the Tool & Die trade since the mid 60's and this method will never fail you if, like you explain, your equipment is trammed and square. You always want to start with the largest surface and work down to the smallest. Another tip that you did hot mention but probably did it with out thinking, is to always cut into the part with the end mill. This will produce a part with the least amount of burrs so clean up is easier. Nice video and great explanation of the procedure.
This video is so helpful, I'm not much of a mill guy, and I never seem to get blocks square on the first time. Thanks for taking the time to make these videos.
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the video. A ball would do the same thing as a wire, but I'd be leery about the small contact area. The aluminum wire being soft conforms to the part and spreads out the clamping pressure.
The basic formula for rpm is four times the cutting speed of the material divided by the diameter of the end mill. In this case I was using a 1/2" end mill and cutting aluminum, which has a cutting speed of 250 surface feet per minute, so 4 X 250 /.5= 2000 rpm.
Thanks Marty. Procedures like this are second nature to guys like us who have spent our lives doing it, but they can be a real mystery to someone just starting out. My goal with these videos is to present as many of these basic procedures as possible to help out the new machinist. That's a good point about climb milling on the part to reduce burrs. I do it all the time without even thinking. I'll make a note on the video pointing it out. Thanks for taking the time to comment. Tom
FINALLY someone who thinks outside the box. You wouldn't believe the amount of flak I'm taken over using that ball pein hammer in the video. ;) Ball peins are smaller than pretty much any other hammer so you can hold the part with your fingers and feel when it sits down on the parallels. Like you say, any marks will be machined away. A lot of techniques I use are outside the norm but I use them because they work. Thanks. Tom
I love it. Finally found someone who not only knew this technique but also improved on it. I like the fact that you use the side of the facing cutter to cut the flat on side 5. I have been setting it up in in the vise to face cut it. This eliminates that step. Thanks. The part I like best about this is not having to use 3 hand s to get the part right.
Nice you took the time to put this out there! I have interviewed a lot of people for tool maker positions and I always ask to explain how to square a block. As mentioned There are a few ways depending on accuracy required. One thing we did is grind the side block on the vice square so a 123 block can be screwed on as a rail for that last side. Helps save time when you have a lot of blocks. Check out the video by lindquist steels showing how they square up blocks. Now that's fast!
That was a great little tutorial - I'm very new to all this and have pretty limited skills - so my attempts are squaring have been ordinary to say the least. Followed your procedure and it worked really well. Thanks!
Please keep making videos. People need skills. For people looking to be employable, you sir are helping! May God smile on you, your helping 1000s of people.
Great video! I have used several techniques. his is one of the best. It would be great for beginning machine shop students. I will recommend your channel to my community college machining instructors and classmates. I make the Z adjustments by raising the table. Thanks again.
Thanks Andrew. I think that's the same technique the last poster described. It'll create the same end result but like you say, using one extra step. That's the fun thing about machining, there are many different ways of accomplishing the same thing. Tom
Good point. Burrs on the part and chips under the part are the two biggest problems when squaring up stock. You can do everything right and still not end up with a square part if you don't deal with the burrs and chips. I keep a brush hanging on the side of the machine and a file within reach. Tom
Thanks for commenting. I prefer the feel and size of a ball pein over other types of hammers on rough surfaces. If I was working on a part that was already machined, I would use a plastic hammer. Sticking small parts out the end of the vise if fine for larger parts, but on a small part like this it's asking for trouble. The vise won't grip the part evenly and the risk of it moving is high. A side milled part also won't be as square as an end milled part due to flex in the end mill.
Nice lesson and sharing control of sides through marking. Agree the ball ping hammer is something I will try and see if it provide to me any difference , it is good to try new things, well new to me anyways after 40 plus machining years.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. Milling bar stock is pretty much the same technique. You'll need a set of thin parallels and since you'll be working very close to the vise jaws, you'll need to be careful. Basically machine one side flat, place it against the solid jaw and machine the 2 adjoining sides square and to size. Then clamp it in the vise with the remaining side up and machine that to size. The ends can then be side milled to length.
Tom. Great video. I am with you all the way through step 4. I vary at this point adding one step to the process & use no square. At this point I put side 2 to the solid jaw (SJ) & side 5 facing up. Then skim cut side 5 using the Y axis (do not move the x) enough to get a clean surface from 2 to 3. I then take the part & place it in the vise surface 1 to SJ & side 5 on the ||. Now finish side 6 then turn over & finish cut side 5. The wire is good. I use a 3/4 ball that has a flat ground on it.
Yes, using another part to space the jaws is an option as is using a machinists jack or an adjustable parallel. Flex in an end mill is not negligible. They all flex and longer ones can flex considerably. You'll always get a part that is more square by end milling which is why I prefer to do it that way, and do it that way in this demo. Proper use of a square is a learned skill and comes from experience, just like the feel when miking a part or when using a telescoping gauge.
Thanks James, I'm making some as we speak (or type). They are a series of tutorials where I build a useful project from start to finish from a set of provided drawings. I'm currently working on beginners level stuff designed to teach basic skills, but will eventually do intermediate and advance projects as well. I had hoped to have it ready to go today, but it looks like it's gonna take another day to get everything ready. Tom
Tom....just a home shop guy here......great video, great education, I will try the wire method. I have been using a ball that has a flat milled on it which the flat sits against the moveable jaw
It took several readings of Wingrider X's description but I like what he does. What he is doing makes great sense and doesn't require a tool change as long as your facing cutter has straight sides. All he is doing is cutting side 5 with the side of the end mill that is already being used to create the flat that gets set on the || to cut side 6. The reason I like this method over the square is that it doesn't require 3 hands.
I also think the tip I found most helpful was tapping the stock into the vise. I don't have a kurt, or kurt knock-off so the CNC vise makes the work rise. I just made about 4 blocks perfectly square last night after watching this video. Also I mimicked your tool path always doing climb milling, and shaving the edges. Sometimes its just the small things one forgets.
Thank you...I followed all your steps...works great....I need a mini machinists square to line up the end surface.l.but the rest of technique worked wonders.
For this particular procedure it's not necessary that the solid jaws of the vise be parallel to the table because all the milling is performed on the top surface. However, unless you are purposely making an angled cut on a part, the vise jaws should always be kept parallel to the table, just as the head should always be kept perpendicular to the table. I have a video showing a quick way to indicate the solid jaw on a vise, it's called "Indicate the vise on a milling machine in just one pass".
Square is a term I've heard for many years as a machinist for 40+ years. It all depends on. WHAT the part is going to be used for as far as the process of squaring up blocks, .0002 squares needed or .005 good enough. If .005 was good enough, side milling ends would work to save time. If more accuracy is needed, use head with indicator instead of square. First side should should be clamped, but NOT pounded down. Also, vise jaws are not always square with the world as we all think, especially if you clamp tight, it can move jaw out of square slightly
If you think .0002 is a tolerance you think you can keep on a mill..... You are a liar when you say that you have been in the trade 40 plus years !!! Wanna challenge me.... go ahead .... lets see who makes more sence.... Perhaps we could let people on a machine shop site decide who knows what they are talking about in REAL world situations ???
Thanks. You may want to try using the ball or edge of a ball pein on rough sawed surfaces, it works much better than anything I've tried. But yes, plastic is appropriate for finished surfaces. Tom
You can take deep cuts in steel as well, but it takes experience to know when it's appropriate. Plunge cutting with long end mills is a good example of when climb milling is appropriate. I have a thread in the gunsmithing section of metalworkingfun where I mill a deep pocket in steel with a 1/4" by 3" end mill and climb cut it. It also takes rigid machinery. I wouldn't try much climb milling on a bench mill. In cases like this, I like to climb around the edges so it doesn't raise a burr.
I think your doing a great service for people. I have about 40 years of machining experience I don't think your way would hurt anything. a mold maker once told me not to hammer on the part at all. and to use a 3 flute 3inch cutter for a somewhat flat cut after dialing in the head for a .002 sweep over the width of the table. take care good stuff..........
+Brian Morrison Thanks Brian. I started out running a lathe for a small machine shop at sixteen years old, forty six years ago and have been making chips ever since. What I have learned over time is that there is always more than one way to do something, never accept anything someone says without question, regardless of who they are and the way you were initially taught is not always the best way. Always be innovative and never stop learning. Take care, Tom
+John Spangler I was just about to go buy a pack of AL TIG rod (I don't TIG weld, so I'd take years to go through 30 rods) when I realized I've got some solid conductor copper electrical wire I can strip the insulation off of!
At about 4:30 in the video I take one dimension of the block to a specific size, checking it with calipers. Basically all you do is take a cut and set the dial on the table to zero, measure the part, move the table up the required amount and take a finish cut. I'm using a 1/2" two flute end mill in this video and the mill is a DoAll variable speed milling machine, much like a Bridgeport. Tom
You are correct, but you can't assume any of the faces are parallel until they have been machined. The wire is only used on surfaces that have not been machined, such as sawed or rolled (mill) surfaces.
Thanks for the comments Kevin, but I have already explained in these comments why the part is centered in the vise, why I don't like to side mill and why I use a ball pein hammer. Check out the comments and give it a try.
As Jonathan commented, I had not come across the soft wire trick. I’ll be using that in future, many thanks for sharing. I would also like to confirm that using an end mill is much better than a fish. I tried fitting a decent bit of halibut to my R8 spindle and it was hopeless. It wandered off centre, wouldn’t cut properly, made a mess etc. Maybe the drawbar wasn’t engaged properly.
I concur with Tom, as long as you clean the vise of any chips and you haven't changed the parallels, the height of the part will still be the same, as long as the part is properly seated.
Thanks, but that's an old worn out file that I been using for years just for deburring and it's actually better off that way. Nice new files don't work well for deburring because they tend to chatter. When I get around to doing a video on filing, I'll concentrate more on proper technique, but not for something as mundane as deburring.
Over the years I've found that a simple ball pein works as well or better than a dead blow or lead hammer: They are small so the part doesn't need to be moved as far from the cutter for access, using the ball end feels exactly the same as a dead blow (try it you'll be surprised), and it's one less hammer taking up space in the tool box. Obviously you would not use a ball pein on a finished surface, but for squaring up a rough sawed part they can't be beat.
It depends on the situation. It can be difficult to measure a part held in the mill vise so sometimes it's easier to just take it out for a measurement. As long as you tap the part back down tight on the parallels removing it will have little effect on accuracy. On a lathe, it's perfectly acceptable to remove a part held in a collet, but generally not a good idea with a three jaw or four jaw chuck because it would be difficult to return the part to the same position without indicating it. Tom
I am a retired tool & die maker, and you are doing this the hard way to square a block. After squaring 4 sides, put the block roughly square in the vise and machine the 5th side BUT now mark the side that is square to the back jaw with a marker, also mark the 5th side as it will need to be milled a second time. Now turn the block over, 180 degrees and put the squared side 90 degrees to the back jaw, machine the 6th side which is now square in 2 planes. again turn the block 180 degrees and finish machining the 5th side again which was before only square in one plane. no need for indicators or squaring devices. Remember , the vice is nothing more than an angle plate with a clamp attached. Also, to try to tap a tall block with a hammer is a waste of time. the vice will always lift up a small amount, but if you tighten it the same each time, it will repeat within .001 every time. I also used to use a piece of body filler lead in stick form to use for uneven surfaces . Also , using a fly cutter, the head must be trammed square and if your machine is older and worn, it will also affect squareness, a smaller diameter cutter will work better in this case.
You know as well as I do Glenn, that there are many different approaches in machining to accomplish the same thing. You should share your knowledge via a video as I do, so others can benefit from it. I understand what you are saying, but most novice machinists will not. Tom
Don't want to sound mean.... and yes it does work in pracitcal and theory.....however, if the block can fit in your vice like most pieces and you comfortable with the squarness of the head. ( please forgive any incorrect grammar) you put the part in the vice but with about 75% of th part exposed out of the top of the vice... and one side totally off to the left hand side of the vice.... clean up the top work to flatten that side. 1 side done.... keep part in vice move endmill to side on solid vice ( back side...) climb mill that side to close to dimension..so now you have two sides done and are square as edge.. Now lift the knee then the now cut the left hads side ..? Lower table and machine sides açcordling...now you have top and 4 sides square and parallel.... Change parallel s to shorter ,tap down part and repeat process and a 6 sided square block will bi in the vice that is parallel congratulating all that in 2 setup instead of 6 regrips and square ...sounds like a lot of work while reading... but as perfect as your mill...and no hand tools needed
That's an interesting variation and there is nothing wrong with doing it that way. The only problem is that it takes a tool change and an extra step, meaning that it would take longer to do over just using a square. Thanks for pointing it out. Tom
You are welcome. The moveable jaw of the vise has freedom of movement about the Z axis, but not the X axis. Using a wire or rod between the part and jaw compensates for that.
The reason I use soft aluminum wire is that it will conform to the irregular surface of a sawed part. Steel rods will work on a flat surface but may not hold as well on an irregular one.
The arm is part of a work stop. If you have more than one part to make, the stop will locate each part so you don't need to find the edge every time you put another part in. Tom
One other thing I noticed in your video; is that Files only cut in one direction pick it up on the return stroke. Even aluminum will dull a edge over time. Thanks for taking the time to teach.
I'm gonna go ahead and listen to this guy. He has obviously cranked some mill handles, probably wore down a few lead screws in his time. I like the no nonsense, taking the part to size, on the first dimension.
Coolant can be used to allow higher feeds and speeds, especially on steel, but it is optional. In this case I'm taking light cuts in aluminum, so coolant isn't necessary at all.
An end milled part will be more square than a side milled part because there is no flex in the end mill. Side milling is fine for panels and other thin parts, or if there is no other option, but I always end mill thicker parts if possible.
If the solid jaw on your vise is square then you should have no problem tapping the part down on the parallels regardless of size. Indicate the solid jaw, on your vise on both the X axis and Z axis (move the table, not the head) to be sure. Also make sure the head of your mill is perpendicular to the table, especially if using a fly cutter. The procedure I've outlined will create a square part, but the machine must to be properly set up or you'll just transfer any misalignment to the part.
Thanks! Not sure why you wouldn't climb mill, unless you have a smaller mill that lacks rigidity. Climb milling is perfectly acceptable on larger, more rigid machines and in fact provides a better surface finish than conventional milling, especially on aluminum.
i do it simalar but i use a piece of 1 inch or half inch 1018 steel rod. i have two with the oil coat still on it. and two that are polished and cleared.
Thanks for the response. I used parallels (and your other suggestions) just like you demonstrated - worked great!. Reading the other comments, you mention avoiding the side milling if possible. For the first side, would you place the flat bar upwards in the vice (clamped on the 1/4" dimension) to square the 1/4" side first, or lay it down and cut the side? The latter does not offer much material for setting the aluminum weld bar. Thanks!
As do I, but only after finishing two surfaces at right angles to each other. It doesn't make sense to de-burr before that because the side against the parallel will be sawed anyway.
People are really trying to knock this guy. If at the end of the day he is happy with the amount of time spent, the tooling lifespan, and the dimensional correctness of the part he delivers then is there anything wrong with how he arrived there? It fits his purposes fine. Shoot in my hobby machining I do things differently than I see a lot of machinists do on CZcams. Not because their method is wrong but because my smaller machines just can’t handle the methods used with larger industrial machines. Quite frankly I found it to be a rather informative video. Good content. 👍 And for god sakes people stop worrying about the ball peen hammer. The surfaces he strikes are already marred up from sawing...🙄
All you negative folks out there need to grow a pair and give the man the respect due for trying to share these videos..I'd hate to see the folks that post these videos get fed up with all you jackasses and stop trying to help those of us that listen because of it.
No matter how much you think you know, there's always something new to learn. I've been doing this for more than forty years and still discover new and better ways of doing things.
Tom
All vises allow the work to rise when you clamp it (even my Kurt), so tapping the work down is a normal part of the procedure when milling. Glad you got some useful tips from the video.
Thank you for your very clear and straightforward video. No distracting music, unnecessary graphics and other attempts to be cool and funny. I learned what I needed to learn - totally new at this. Not only did I learn how to square everything, your additional hints that you mention in passing are very informative. It was like watching Penn and Teller show how they do their tricks. Obvious when you know how - but I didn't! Thanks again.
Thanks John.
When you aren't cool or funny, there is no sense trying to promote it. ;)
Thanks for watching
Tom
This is such an awesome bit of machine lore.
I'm a hobby machinist, and don't do this often enough to totally memorize the process. But today is my nTh viewing (always come back for a refresher) and I think I may be finally 'getting' it! Thanks for all your good info, Tom!
Good to hear!
Tom
Been a Tool Maker / CNC Programmer for 27years I watched this video and was like of course this is how u square a block I guess I thought everyone was taught 2 square blocks this way, until I read the comments and am blown away that there's machinist out there that never were taught this. Only diffrence I would say is I don't use a ball pien hammer I use a dead blow and after having 3sides milled I then put in 2 parallels instead of 1 but apart from that I've always used a pin if I don't have 2ground sides across from each other. Don't try and tap block down until u have a ground edge against non moving jaw and edge sitting on parallel u will fight a loosing battle is the only other tip I can give, allow the back jaw and pin in front 2square ur block until u have a milled surface 2sit on parallel. Nice vid.
This was exactly the method I just learned in my machinist class, and is outlined in the NIMS textbook. The only variation we learned was for milling sides 5 and 6: if the piece is a long rectangle you might not want too much standing up in a vise, so simply raise the bench and run the side of the end mill over the sides of the workpiece. Good video thank you!
Thanks Richard.
My videos are definitely geared toward beginning students because that's who I worked with when I started teaching. It's a lot of fun to get back to teaching again.
I am hard at work on a website that will make it much easier to browse the videos and offer something new that I call project tutorials where I provide drawings for a useful project and then build it start to finish. They will include many different machining processes and have different levels of difficulty.
Tom
Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed it and learned something from it. I have a few other ideas for videos, just need to get busy and make them.
Thanks for the reply Sir. I haven't turned or milled since 8 years, but I sure miss doing it. Watching these videos brings back memories from school. I can smell the hot metal and coolant...
Thanks Vince.
Side milling is a good option for long or thin parts, but only as a last resort. You''ll get a part that is more square if you face mill or fly-cut because you won't get the cutter deflection that you get when side milling. I normally side mill when squaring up plate stock.
Glad you enjoyed the video.
Tom
Thanks for taking the time to put these up! I just bought a little mini-mill, and I'm hungrily diving in to learn as much as I can about it, with the goal of some day being good enough to rate a real machine :P Looks like I just found the place to learn! Again, thanks a ton!
A mini mill is a real machine, just on a smaller scale. All of the machining techniques still apply, but with a reduced depth of cut.
Tom
Never thought about using the parallel and wire like that. Thank you so much for taking the time to show us self-taught hacks another way of approaching things.
Tom,
I have also been in the Tool & Die trade since the mid 60's and this method will never fail you if, like you explain, your equipment is trammed and square. You always want to start with the largest surface and work down to the smallest. Another tip that you did hot mention but probably did it with out thinking, is to always cut into the part with the end mill. This will produce a part with the least amount of burrs so clean up is easier. Nice video and great explanation of the procedure.
This video is so helpful, I'm not much of a mill guy, and I never seem to get blocks square on the first time. Thanks for taking the time to make these videos.
You are the guy I made this video for.
Thanks for watching.
Tom
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the video. A ball would do the same thing as a wire, but I'd be leery about the small contact area. The aluminum wire being soft conforms to the part and spreads out the clamping pressure.
The basic formula for rpm is four times the cutting speed of the material divided by the diameter of the end mill. In this case I was using a 1/2" end mill and cutting aluminum, which has a cutting speed of 250 surface feet per minute, so 4 X 250 /.5= 2000 rpm.
Thanks Marty.
Procedures like this are second nature to guys like us who have spent our lives doing it, but they can be a real mystery to someone just starting out. My goal with these videos is to present as many of these basic procedures as possible to help out the new machinist.
That's a good point about climb milling on the part to reduce burrs. I do it all the time without even thinking. I'll make a note on the video pointing it out.
Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Tom
FINALLY someone who thinks outside the box. You wouldn't believe the amount of flak I'm taken over using that ball pein hammer in the video. ;)
Ball peins are smaller than pretty much any other hammer so you can hold the part with your fingers and feel when it sits down on the parallels. Like you say, any marks will be machined away. A lot of techniques I use are outside the norm but I use them because they work.
Thanks.
Tom
I love it. Finally found someone who not only knew this technique but also improved on it. I like the fact that you use the side of the facing cutter to cut the flat on side 5. I have been setting it up in in the vise to face cut it. This eliminates that step. Thanks. The part I like best about this is not having to use 3 hand s to get the part right.
Nice you took the time to put this out there! I have interviewed a lot of people for tool maker positions and I always ask to explain how to square a block. As mentioned There are a few ways depending on accuracy required. One thing we did is grind the side block on the vice square so a 123 block can be screwed on as a rail for that last side. Helps save time when you have a lot of blocks. Check out the video by lindquist steels showing how they square up blocks. Now that's fast!
That was a great little tutorial - I'm very new to all this and have pretty limited skills - so my attempts are squaring have been ordinary to say the least. Followed your procedure and it worked really well. Thanks!
+Super Grover
Success stories are always good to hear. Thanks for watching!
Tom
They are just ordinary two flute high speed steel end mills. I get most of mine from McMaster Carr.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed the video.
Tom
Please keep making videos. People need skills. For people looking to be employable, you sir are helping! May God smile on you, your helping 1000s of people.
Great video! I have used several techniques. his is one of the best. It would be great for beginning machine shop students. I will recommend your channel to my community college machining instructors and classmates. I make the Z adjustments by raising the table. Thanks again.
Thanks Andrew.
I think that's the same technique the last poster described. It'll create the same end result but like you say, using one extra step. That's the fun thing about machining, there are many different ways of accomplishing the same thing.
Tom
Good point.
Burrs on the part and chips under the part are the two biggest problems when squaring up stock. You can do everything right and still not end up with a square part if you don't deal with the burrs and chips. I keep a brush hanging on the side of the machine and a file within reach.
Tom
Thanks Cliff, I'm glad you liked it.
Tom
Thanks for commenting.
I prefer the feel and size of a ball pein over other types of hammers on rough surfaces. If I was working on a part that was already machined, I would use a plastic hammer.
Sticking small parts out the end of the vise if fine for larger parts, but on a small part like this it's asking for trouble. The vise won't grip the part evenly and the risk of it moving is high. A side milled part also won't be as square as an end milled part due to flex in the end mill.
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Thanks, I appreciate the comment.
Nice lesson and sharing control of sides through marking. Agree the ball ping hammer is something I will try and see if it provide to me any difference , it is good to try new things, well new to me anyways after 40 plus machining years.
Thanks. And a big thumbs up for someone with an open mind. :)
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it.
Milling bar stock is pretty much the same technique. You'll need a set of thin parallels and since you'll be working very close to the vise jaws, you'll need to be careful. Basically machine one side flat, place it against the solid jaw and machine the 2 adjoining sides square and to size. Then clamp it in the vise with the remaining side up and machine that to size. The ends can then be side milled to length.
Thank you! Been battling to square up, finally got it right. It’s a janky hobby combo machine but in by 0.02 mm which is good enough for me.
Thank you for taking the time to comment.
VERY hand trick. I just tried it with 2 copper 16awg wires twisted together. Such a simple idea and it works. THANK you!
Thank you for the taking the time to make this video.
Tom. Great video. I am with you all the way through step 4. I vary at this point adding one step to the process & use no square. At this point I put side 2 to the solid jaw (SJ) & side 5 facing up. Then skim cut side 5 using the Y axis (do not move the x) enough to get a clean surface from 2 to 3. I then take the part & place it in the vise surface 1 to SJ & side 5 on the ||. Now finish side 6 then turn over & finish cut side 5. The wire is good. I use a 3/4 ball that has a flat ground on it.
Clear is good, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Yes, using another part to space the jaws is an option as is using a machinists jack or an adjustable parallel.
Flex in an end mill is not negligible. They all flex and longer ones can flex considerably. You'll always get a part that is more square by end milling which is why I prefer to do it that way, and do it that way in this demo. Proper use of a square is a learned skill and comes from experience, just like the feel when miking a part or when using a telescoping gauge.
Thanks James, I'm making some as we speak (or type).
They are a series of tutorials where I build a useful project from start to finish from a set of provided drawings. I'm currently working on beginners level stuff designed to teach basic skills, but will eventually do intermediate and advance projects as well. I had hoped to have it ready to go today, but it looks like it's gonna take another day to get everything ready.
Tom
Tom....just a home shop guy here......great video, great education, I will try the wire method. I have been using a ball that has a flat milled on it which the flat sits against the moveable jaw
It took several readings of Wingrider X's description but I like what he does. What he is doing makes great sense and doesn't require a tool change as long as your facing cutter has straight sides. All he is doing is cutting side 5 with the side of the end mill that is already being used to create the flat that gets set on the || to cut side 6. The reason I like this method over the square is that it doesn't require 3 hands.
I also think the tip I found most helpful was tapping the stock into the vise. I don't have a kurt, or kurt knock-off so the CNC vise makes the work rise. I just made about 4 blocks perfectly square last night after watching this video. Also I mimicked your tool path always doing climb milling, and shaving the edges. Sometimes its just the small things one forgets.
Thank you...I followed all your steps...works great....I need a mini machinists square to line up the end surface.l.but the rest of technique worked wonders.
Nice video and explanation. Keep up the good work. I learned a bunch. Now I'm gonna watch our other vids. thanks again.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it.
Tom
Got it. I didn't realize what he was doing until now. I'll have to give it a try.
Tom
Great tip using the tig welding rod.Thanks for that
For this particular procedure it's not necessary that the solid jaws of the vise be parallel to the table because all the milling is performed on the top surface. However, unless you are purposely making an angled cut on a part, the vise jaws should always be kept parallel to the table, just as the head should always be kept perpendicular to the table. I have a video showing a quick way to indicate the solid jaw on a vise, it's called "Indicate the vise on a milling machine in just one pass".
To be really sure it's square, remember to clean all the chips off between the changing of sides. They get everywhere. :)
Especially UNDER the parallel. I can't believe that this guy didn't even once check or clean the chips down there.
Great way of thought! thank you for your response
Square is a term I've heard for many years as a machinist for 40+ years. It all depends on. WHAT the part is going to be used for as far as the process of squaring up blocks, .0002 squares needed or .005 good enough. If .005 was good enough, side milling ends would work to save time. If more accuracy is needed, use head with indicator instead of square. First side should should be clamped, but NOT pounded down. Also, vise jaws are not always square with the world as we all think, especially if you clamp tight, it can move jaw out of square slightly
If you think .0002 is a tolerance you think you can keep on a mill.....
You are a liar when you say that you have been in the trade 40 plus years !!!
Wanna challenge me.... go ahead .... lets see who makes more sence....
Perhaps we could let people on a machine shop site decide who knows what they are talking about in REAL world situations ???
@@steveattree9674 could be referring to a cnc.
Thanks for shearing your machining skill
Thanks.
You may want to try using the ball or edge of a ball pein on rough sawed surfaces, it works much better than anything I've tried. But yes, plastic is appropriate for finished surfaces.
Tom
You can take deep cuts in steel as well, but it takes experience to know when it's appropriate. Plunge cutting with long end mills is a good example of when climb milling is appropriate. I have a thread in the gunsmithing section of metalworkingfun where I mill a deep pocket in steel with a 1/4" by 3" end mill and climb cut it. It also takes rigid machinery. I wouldn't try much climb milling on a bench mill. In cases like this, I like to climb around the edges so it doesn't raise a burr.
I think your doing a great service for people. I have about 40 years of machining experience
I don't think your way would hurt anything. a mold maker once told me not to hammer on the part at all. and to use a 3 flute 3inch cutter for a somewhat flat cut after dialing in the head for a .002 sweep over the width of the table. take care good stuff..........
+Brian Morrison
Thanks Brian.
I started out running a lathe for a small machine shop at sixteen years old, forty six years ago and have been making chips ever since. What I have learned over time is that there is always more than one way to do something, never accept anything someone says without question, regardless of who they are and the way you were initially taught is not always the best way. Always be innovative and never stop learning.
Take care,
Tom
Great vid Tom! Thank you
Great little vid Tom.
Thanks. My machines help pay the bills so they are always kept clean and in good working order.
Paper is good for holding parts already machined to keep them from moving. I use wire on parts that are rough sawn and uneven.
Tom
Helps understand flatness and reference . I had to apologize to the engineer I worked with. Also qualifying any square I come across .
Thanks My friend, a great and useful advise. Hello from Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. And happy new year
I like the tip of using the welding rod to take up the irregular surface.
+John Spangler I was just about to go buy a pack of AL TIG rod (I don't TIG weld, so I'd take years to go through 30 rods) when I realized I've got some solid conductor copper electrical wire I can strip the insulation off of!
At about 4:30 in the video I take one dimension of the block to a specific size, checking it with calipers. Basically all you do is take a cut and set the dial on the table to zero, measure the part, move the table up the required amount and take a finish cut.
I'm using a 1/2" two flute end mill in this video and the mill is a DoAll variable speed milling machine, much like a Bridgeport.
Tom
You are correct, but you can't assume any of the faces are parallel until they have been machined. The wire is only used on surfaces that have not been machined, such as sawed or rolled (mill) surfaces.
good video, thank you for the information, please keep doing videos like about machining.
Thanks for the comments Kevin, but I have already explained in these comments why the part is centered in the vise, why I don't like to side mill and why I use a ball pein hammer. Check out the comments and give it a try.
As Jonathan commented, I had not come across the soft wire trick. I’ll be using that in future, many thanks for sharing. I would also like to confirm that using an end mill is much better than a fish. I tried fitting a decent bit of halibut to my R8 spindle and it was hopeless. It wandered off centre, wouldn’t cut properly, made a mess etc. Maybe the drawbar wasn’t engaged properly.
I concur with Tom, as long as you clean the vise of any chips and you haven't changed the parallels, the height of the part will still be the same, as long as the part is properly seated.
Thanks, but that's an old worn out file that I been using for years just for deburring and it's actually better off that way. Nice new files don't work well for deburring because they tend to chatter. When I get around to doing a video on filing, I'll concentrate more on proper technique, but not for something as mundane as deburring.
Over the years I've found that a simple ball pein works as well or better than a dead blow or lead hammer: They are small so the part doesn't need to be moved as far from the cutter for access, using the ball end feels exactly the same as a dead blow (try it you'll be surprised), and it's one less hammer taking up space in the tool box. Obviously you would not use a ball pein on a finished surface, but for squaring up a rough sawed part they can't be beat.
It depends on the situation. It can be difficult to measure a part held in the mill vise so sometimes it's easier to just take it out for a measurement. As long as you tap the part back down tight on the parallels removing it will have little effect on accuracy. On a lathe, it's perfectly acceptable to remove a part held in a collet, but generally not a good idea with a three jaw or four jaw chuck because it would be difficult to return the part to the same position without indicating it.
Tom
I am a retired tool & die maker, and you are doing this the hard way to square a block. After squaring 4 sides, put the block roughly square in the vise and machine the 5th side BUT now mark the side that is square to the back jaw with a marker, also mark the 5th side as it will need to be milled a second time. Now turn the block over, 180 degrees and put the squared side 90 degrees to the back jaw, machine the 6th side which is now square in 2 planes. again turn the block 180 degrees and finish machining the 5th side again which was before only square in one plane. no need for indicators or squaring devices. Remember , the vice is nothing more than an angle plate with a clamp attached. Also, to try to tap a tall block with a hammer is a waste of time. the vice will always lift up a small amount, but if you tighten it the same each time, it will repeat within .001 every time. I also used to use a piece of body filler lead in stick form to use for uneven surfaces . Also , using a fly cutter, the head must be trammed square and if your machine is older and worn, it will also affect squareness, a smaller diameter cutter will work better in this case.
You know as well as I do Glenn, that there are many different approaches in machining to accomplish the same thing. You should share your knowledge via a video as I do, so others can benefit from it. I understand what you are saying, but most novice machinists will not.
Tom
You got it right with squaring 6 sides, too few machinists are aware, the total squareness depends on the condition of machine or vise,
Don't want to sound mean.... and yes it does work in pracitcal and theory.....however, if the block can fit in your vice like most pieces and you comfortable with the squarness of the head. ( please forgive any incorrect grammar) you put the part in the vice but with about 75% of th part exposed out of the top of the vice... and one side totally off to the left hand side of the vice.... clean up the top work to flatten that side. 1 side done.... keep part in vice move endmill to side on solid vice ( back side...) climb mill that side to close to dimension..so now you have two sides done and are square as edge..
Now lift the knee then the now cut the left hads side ..? Lower table and machine sides açcordling...now you have top and 4 sides square and parallel....
Change parallel s to shorter ,tap down part and repeat process and a 6 sided square block will bi in the vice that is parallel congratulating all that in 2 setup instead of 6 regrips and square ...sounds like a lot of work while reading... but as perfect as your mill...and no hand tools needed
One more great tip, thanks Tom
That's an interesting variation and there is nothing wrong with doing it that way. The only problem is that it takes a tool change and an extra step, meaning that it would take longer to do over just using a square.
Thanks for pointing it out.
Tom
You,r faster than light in operating this, my boss would be proud of me if i work like you. Really good canal, SUB is goin on. Greets from Poland.
+fearcd
The more experience you have, the faster you will get.
Thanks for watching.
Tom
You are welcome.
The moveable jaw of the vise has freedom of movement about the Z axis, but not the X axis. Using a wire or rod between the part and jaw compensates for that.
Thank you, very clear, much appreciated!
The reason I use soft aluminum wire is that it will conform to the irregular surface of a sawed part. Steel rods will work on a flat surface but may not hold as well on an irregular one.
The arm is part of a work stop. If you have more than one part to make, the stop will locate each part so you don't need to find the edge every time you put another part in.
Tom
One other thing I noticed in your video; is that Files only cut in one direction pick it up on the return stroke. Even aluminum will dull a edge over time.
Thanks for taking the time to teach.
Files are not heirloom tools start thinking of them as long term sand paper.
I'm gonna go ahead and listen to this guy. He has obviously cranked some mill handles, probably wore down a few lead screws in his time. I like the no nonsense, taking the part to size, on the first dimension.
Coolant can be used to allow higher feeds and speeds, especially on steel, but it is optional. In this case I'm taking light cuts in aluminum, so coolant isn't necessary at all.
Very helpful vid; thanks for uploading!
An end milled part will be more square than a side milled part because there is no flex in the end mill. Side milling is fine for panels and other thin parts, or if there is no other option, but I always end mill thicker parts if possible.
Thank you for posting.
If the solid jaw on your vise is square then you should have no problem tapping the part down on the parallels regardless of size. Indicate the solid jaw, on your vise on both the X axis and Z axis (move the table, not the head) to be sure. Also make sure the head of your mill is perpendicular to the table, especially if using a fly cutter. The procedure I've outlined will create a square part, but the machine must to be properly set up or you'll just transfer any misalignment to the part.
Thanks!
Not sure why you wouldn't climb mill, unless you have a smaller mill that lacks rigidity. Climb milling is perfectly acceptable on larger, more rigid machines and in fact provides a better surface finish than conventional milling, especially on aluminum.
i do it simalar but i use a piece of 1 inch or half inch 1018 steel rod. i have two with the oil coat still on it. and two that are polished and cleared.
Thanks for the response. I used parallels (and your other suggestions) just like you demonstrated - worked great!. Reading the other comments, you mention avoiding the side milling if possible. For the first side, would you place the flat bar upwards in the vice (clamped on the 1/4" dimension) to square the 1/4" side first, or lay it down and cut the side? The latter does not offer much material for setting the aluminum weld bar. Thanks!
a piece fo leather belt works great in place of the alum. rod, it tends to give more support and compresses for any high or low spots.
As long as your pants don't fall down while you are using it. ;)
Thank you. Very informative.
Thanks. I definitely learned something.
Good to hear
As do I, but only after finishing two surfaces at right angles to each other. It doesn't make sense to de-burr before that because the side against the parallel will be sawed anyway.
great video. Thanks. enjoyed very much.
Thank you for your help.
Guess I must have grown an extra hand somewhere along the way over the last 45 years, because I don't think twice about using the square. :)
Tom
People are really trying to knock this guy. If at the end of the day he is happy with the amount of time spent, the tooling lifespan, and the dimensional correctness of the part he delivers then is there anything wrong with how he arrived there? It fits his purposes fine. Shoot in my hobby machining I do things differently than I see a lot of machinists do on CZcams. Not because their method is wrong but because my smaller machines just can’t handle the methods used with larger industrial machines.
Quite frankly I found it to be a rather informative video. Good content. 👍
And for god sakes people stop worrying about the ball peen hammer. The surfaces he strikes are already marred up from sawing...🙄
All you negative folks out there need to grow a pair and give the man the respect due for trying to share these videos..I'd hate to see the folks that post these videos get fed up with all you jackasses and stop trying to help those of us that listen because of it.
i could not agree more !
Great helpful video.