I have a contrabassoon on trial and so I made a few of these videos for myself to compare the two. I thought that other people might be interested in this sort of thing too.
I'm not a professional musician, but I have an amateur interest in these sorts of things. My perspective goes something like this; The contraforte is cleaner sounding, especially in the low range, has more dynamic capabilities, and is overall more versatile. The "faults" of the contrabassoon, however, can provide a musical character that the contraforte probably can't quite produce. When what you're after is that "nastier" or "saltier" sound that the contrabassoon, and only the contrabassoon (or maybe the sarrusophone or contrabass saxophone, but still not quite the same tonal quality), has in its loud, grumpy, flatulent low register, then the contraforte probably won't do. However, in most applications, the intent of the composer was probably to have that big, deep-but-reedy sound, but without the distortion, and probably with more dynamic control. I can see how someone would be inclined to go for the contraforte over the contrabassoon, especially considering that either one of them by themselves cost more than a bit of pocket change. If cost of ownership weren't quite such a factor, however, I could see a value in keeping one of each.
This may sound strange, coming from a different musical tradition, but it's almost like the contrabassoon is "mid-scooped". The higher harmonics are present in both sounds, and the fundamental is almost absent in both sounds, but the contraforte has so much more of the first few harmonics, allowing the octave-twelfth-double octave combo (partials 2, 3, and 4) to greatly assist in reconstructing the missing fundamental. It is possible to reconstruct the missing fundamental from higher harmonics, but really only in isolation. As soon as other instruments start playing in the same spectral band, the contrabassoon's fundamental (and thus its pitch) becomes much harder to distinguish. The contraforte is much harder to cover up, because of the lower harmonics which lie outside the spectrum other instruments are occupying.
Thanks for playing these comparisons... I'm surprised that I actually prefer the bassoon as having more of that 'nasal' character that you expect from the part. The forte is just more bari-sax sounding to me.
They both sound great in your hands, the Contraforte sounds more focused and easy to control. I played the Mother Goose solo on an old Mollenhauer contra that's owned by the university where I live. At that time it had a bunch of problems with leaks and I was using Charles reeds. They had some work done on it and now I'm making my own reeds for it, so the sound is much better. We recently played Brahms 4 and I was able to get a good tone out of it, but not nearly as focused and controlled as what you played here on both instruments.
Contrabassoon sounds more woody, "organic" and a little distorted (the buzz). The Contraforte sounds cleaner, more composed, and restrained. Less personality comes through. Personally, I prefer the sound of the Contrabassoon, but I can understand that people would prefer the cleaner sounding instrument (some people like refined sugar, others prefer raw sugar). I feel, however, as though I hear more of the actual performer coming through the Contrabassoon (more like singing; more vibrato). Your vibrato comes through more organically on the Contrabasoon.
There's not really any comparison for me. When in a pure side-by-side comparison, the Contraforte just magnifies all of the Contrabassoon's faults. The Contrabassoon just has too many uneven notes to be a valid choice. Also, the Contraforte sounds more like a Bassoon than the Contrabassoon does. It's a win for Wolf all around.
Great video, Kris! I'm sorry, but for the Mother Goose, I greatly prefer the contrabassoon for this reason: the contra represents the beast, and the contraforte sounds a bit too nice and refined for the role. The contrabassoon is awkward and a bit ungainly, which is a perfect fit, for me. For everything else, I support the contraforte, but here not.
After listening to both instruments side by side, I'm not convinced by the contraforte. Personally I want my contrabassoon a little gross and unrefined. Why is always having a smooth, beautiful tone considered desirable? Is that what earlier composers had in mind when they wrote for it? Do we really want to sand all the edges off this instrument, or any instrument, for that matter? (disclaimer: I specialize in historical performance, so may be a bit biased :-) )
Really, for me the nasal tone of the contrabassoon stands out... the forte sounds more bari-sax-like. When you're filling a niche in an orchestra you want character... I love the forte, it's obviously an evolved instrument, but the character of the bassoon will stand out in the ensemble.
A contrabassoonist/contraforte player explained some of this to me: early Cbsns were limited by the technology available at the time; it would take years to dry wood thick enough for the optimum specs, and supply of the proper wood (rosewood? I don’t recall) was limited, so the initial design was a compromise which results in the intensely gravelly sound we’ve all become familiar with. The Cfrt is therefore perhaps a “what if?” of sorts. If I had my wishes, I’d have the timbres of Cbsn, Cfrt, Cbass Sarrussophone, Ebb & Bbb Cbass clarinet, and Cbass sax all available for different purposes. Heck, let’s throw in an ophicleide and a theoretical Cbass Tárogató!
After listening to this, I think I have preferred the Contraforte in other videos over the contrabassoon because of the skill of the player. The bassoon is much richer and sounds similar to a well tuned engine. The forte sounds like the engine has one or two untuned components drowning out the rest, making it more "flat" to me.
You played the Ravel Left Hand concerto awesomely on both! 2:15 Beast excerpt the Kontraforte was more of a baddie maybe? Rather than a reformable renegade... 🤔 Now what we really need is a composer to write something specifically for the Kontraforte
Contraforte, hands down. My principal is a diehard contrabassoon advocate, old school mentality that the contraforte isn't really a replacement or that the sound is off. In an orchestra setting the contraforte would absolutely be heard clearly, it's color would blend in perfectly with the brass. It has power, clarity and flexibility. Tone color can be adjusted by the player with good technique and reeds. Edit: After hearing the Ravel Piano concerto I'm absolutely sold on the Contraforte.
What’s this? The “Contraforte”? I’ve never heard of this Instrument. It has a great tone, though. A little bit warmer than the Contrabassoon. How many of these Instruments exist?
Were 2 different mics used? Something about the recording setup sounds different between the two instruments, like the contrabassoon was recorded in mono while the contraforte was recorded in stereo.
where can I buy a contraforte,because all the music stores I know don't have them and a quick google search for contraforte for sale wont help, do you know a website that I can buy one from and get it shipped to me, and where did you get yours?
www.guntramwolf.de/instrumente/modern/fagotte/kontrafagott/kontraforte That's the company that designed it. Not sure if there is an English web page, though.
The contraforte has an overall cleaner tone and more even scale, but lacks the personality and character of the contrabasson
In other words, the double bassoon has an overall dirtier tone and less even scale, but lacks the personality and character of the contraforte.
I'm not a professional musician, but I have an amateur interest in these sorts of things.
My perspective goes something like this; The contraforte is cleaner sounding, especially in the low range, has more dynamic capabilities, and is overall more versatile.
The "faults" of the contrabassoon, however, can provide a musical character that the contraforte probably can't quite produce. When what you're after is that "nastier" or "saltier" sound that the contrabassoon, and only the contrabassoon (or maybe the sarrusophone or contrabass saxophone, but still not quite the same tonal quality), has in its loud, grumpy, flatulent low register, then the contraforte probably won't do.
However, in most applications, the intent of the composer was probably to have that big, deep-but-reedy sound, but without the distortion, and probably with more dynamic control. I can see how someone would be inclined to go for the contraforte over the contrabassoon, especially considering that either one of them by themselves cost more than a bit of pocket change.
If cost of ownership weren't quite such a factor, however, I could see a value in keeping one of each.
The grittier rattle of the lower register on the contrabassoon is unwanted it's more rattle than tone which is where the contraforte sounds better
This may sound strange, coming from a different musical tradition, but it's almost like the contrabassoon is "mid-scooped". The higher harmonics are present in both sounds, and the fundamental is almost absent in both sounds, but the contraforte has so much more of the first few harmonics, allowing the octave-twelfth-double octave combo (partials 2, 3, and 4) to greatly assist in reconstructing the missing fundamental. It is possible to reconstruct the missing fundamental from higher harmonics, but really only in isolation. As soon as other instruments start playing in the same spectral band, the contrabassoon's fundamental (and thus its pitch) becomes much harder to distinguish. The contraforte is much harder to cover up, because of the lower harmonics which lie outside the spectrum other instruments are occupying.
Thanks for playing these comparisons... I'm surprised that I actually prefer the bassoon as having more of that 'nasal' character that you expect from the part. The forte is just more bari-sax sounding to me.
They both sound great in your hands, the Contraforte sounds more focused and easy to control.
I played the Mother Goose solo on an old Mollenhauer contra that's owned by the university where I live. At that time it had a bunch of problems with leaks and I was using Charles reeds. They had some work done on it and now I'm making my own reeds for it, so the sound is much better. We recently played Brahms 4 and I was able to get a good tone out of it, but not nearly as focused and controlled as what you played here on both instruments.
Contrabassoon sounds more woody, "organic" and a little distorted (the buzz). The Contraforte sounds cleaner, more composed, and restrained. Less personality comes through.
Personally, I prefer the sound of the Contrabassoon, but I can understand that people would prefer the cleaner sounding instrument (some people like refined sugar, others prefer raw sugar). I feel, however, as though I hear more of the actual performer coming through the Contrabassoon (more like singing; more vibrato). Your vibrato comes through more organically on the Contrabasoon.
There's not really any comparison for me. When in a pure side-by-side comparison, the Contraforte just magnifies all of the Contrabassoon's faults. The Contrabassoon just has too many uneven notes to be a valid choice. Also, the Contraforte sounds more like a Bassoon than the Contrabassoon does. It's a win for Wolf all around.
Agreed. Much praise for Kris King, too. Keep these videos coming.
Well said.
Great video, Kris! I'm sorry, but for the Mother Goose, I greatly prefer the contrabassoon for this reason: the contra represents the beast, and the contraforte sounds a bit too nice and refined for the role. The contrabassoon is awkward and a bit ungainly, which is a perfect fit, for me. For everything else, I support the contraforte, but here not.
After listening to both instruments side by side, I'm not convinced by the contraforte. Personally I want my contrabassoon a little gross and unrefined. Why is always having a smooth, beautiful tone considered desirable? Is that what earlier composers had in mind when they wrote for it? Do we really want to sand all the edges off this instrument, or any instrument, for that matter? (disclaimer: I specialize in historical performance, so may be a bit biased :-) )
Really, for me the nasal tone of the contrabassoon stands out... the forte sounds more bari-sax-like. When you're filling a niche in an orchestra you want character... I love the forte, it's obviously an evolved instrument, but the character of the bassoon will stand out in the ensemble.
A contrabassoonist/contraforte player explained some of this to me: early Cbsns were limited by the technology available at the time; it would take years to dry wood thick enough for the optimum specs, and supply of the proper wood (rosewood? I don’t recall) was limited, so the initial design was a compromise which results in the intensely gravelly sound we’ve all become familiar with. The Cfrt is therefore perhaps a “what if?” of sorts. If I had my wishes, I’d have the timbres of Cbsn, Cfrt, Cbass Sarrussophone, Ebb & Bbb Cbass clarinet, and Cbass sax all available for different purposes. Heck, let’s throw in an ophicleide and a theoretical Cbass Tárogató!
Contrabassoon
After listening to this, I think I have preferred the Contraforte in other videos over the contrabassoon because of the skill of the player. The bassoon is much richer and sounds similar to a well tuned engine. The forte sounds like the engine has one or two untuned components drowning out the rest, making it more "flat" to me.
Nice to hear some Brahms and also Mahler (7th symphony?) next time you /someone does a comparison video 😊
You played the Ravel Left Hand concerto awesomely on both! 2:15 Beast excerpt the Kontraforte was more of a baddie maybe? Rather than a reformable renegade... 🤔 Now what we really need is a composer to write something specifically for the Kontraforte
Contraforte, hands down. My principal is a diehard contrabassoon advocate, old school mentality that the contraforte isn't really a replacement or that the sound is off. In an orchestra setting the contraforte would absolutely be heard clearly, it's color would blend in perfectly with the brass. It has power, clarity and flexibility. Tone color can be adjusted by the player with good technique and reeds.
Edit: After hearing the Ravel Piano concerto I'm absolutely sold on the Contraforte.
I actually like the contraforte over the contrabassoon. You could do more in dynamics and to me it has a darker, richer tone than the contrabassoon.
What kind of contrabassoon are you playing on here??!! My mother, a fellow bassoonist, really wants to know. You sound beautiful.
I love the contraforte
Does the contraforte blend with contrabassoon in ensemble?
It does very well
What’s this? The “Contraforte”? I’ve never heard of this Instrument. It has a great tone, though. A little bit warmer than the Contrabassoon. How many of these Instruments exist?
Contrabassoon kinda sounds like a semi truck
Contabassoon
What's the first excerpt called?
Were 2 different mics used? Something about the recording setup sounds different between the two instruments, like the contrabassoon was recorded in mono while the contraforte was recorded in stereo.
I noticed that too. Not sure if that skews things but still...
Probably the bell pointing in different direction
where can I buy a contraforte,because all the music stores I know don't have them and a quick google search for contraforte for sale wont help, do you know a website that I can buy one from and get it shipped to me, and where did you get yours?
www.guntramwolf.de/instrumente/modern/fagotte/kontrafagott/kontraforte
That's the company that designed it. Not sure if there is an English web page, though.
What’s the first song?
It's from Sixteen Waltzes for Solo Bassoon: 7. Improvised Waltz by Francisco Mignone.
How much does the Contraforte cost?
does* but its very pricy. Like 50 grand pricy. Pretty spicy if you ask me.
What is the first excerpt from?
Found it, Sixteen Waltzes for Solo Bassoon: 7. Improvised Waltz.
What’s the 3rd excerpt?
Ravel, piano Concerto for the left hand
Wait, you're selling your contraforte?... What happened?