The Crossing - Liechtenauer vs Fiore approaches. With Keith Farrell
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- čas přidán 1. 08. 2024
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the difference in the first situation is in the use of different geometry hacks to gain advantage. Lichtenauer exploits the rule that the sword on top of the other is the strongest one, even if they bind in equal parts, so he tells to strike on top and do not even bother with parrying. I dunno what Fiore says, but see Federico aims at the flat of the opponents blade, and here works the rule that the flat of the blade is weak(debole) against the edge, which acts as strong(forte) in equal binds and even more. and it’s quite Destreza- starting in equal positions, assuming that no one does foolish things, both would seemingly achieve equal outcome(bind in equal parts of blades), but the use of knowledge(which is how Art works) of Geometry allows to break balance, gain advantage and deliver safe thrust.
Having studied and practiced both Lichtenhaur and fiore, here's what I think is happening:
These two plays are superficially similar, but that's mostly because there's some unusual footwork going on for the German fencer. In most circumstances, German fencers usually approach the bind by cutting an oberhau with a passing step, but since his opponent holds the initiative in this drill, the German ends up doing a Zornhau instead. The Zornhau is one of the few german cuts that descends over the lead leg.
In the subsequent plays, you can see that the German fencer makes weak and unnecessary steps in the first tempo, indicating that he habitually steps as he cuts, and not doing so feels awkward to him. Zornhau does this because you can get into a geometrically advantageous position quickly, which more than makes up for the loss in momentum from not stepping. If you advance off-line into the cut, this actually strengthens the mechanical advantage, since you end up arresting the opponent's cut prematurely. Lichtenhaur and his descendants use this as a powerful defensive maneuver, but didn't really make much use of it beyond that, focusing instead on winning the bind through winding.
Fiore, on the other hand, exploits this basic mechanical advantage as pretty much the core of his art. Every weapon he describes, from dagger to poleaxe, makes use of the lead leg cut or thrust as a routine opening gambit. Passing with a strike is reserved for closing to grapple. You can see evidence of this in the Italian fencer's footwork: his lead foot is completely stable in every play. Theoretically, he could've won an even better position if he advanced with his lead leg, as Fiore suggests to do.
You can also see Fiore's handiwork in an error the Italian made during the pommel strike. Since he's not used to passing with the initial cut, he keeps his lead foot forward and ends up being slightly out of measure, which you can tell by the fact that he comes into the German with a lot of excess momentum, which violates the principle of consistently stable footwork. He probably did so because he's more used to fighting over a lead leg, which is likely to happen to anyone who spends most of their time at wide play.
So basically, the main difference between Lichtenhaur and Fiore is where they devote their attention. Lichtenhaur seeks to win the centerline as quickly and efficiently as possible, and to re-win it as soon as he loses it. Fiore is more focused on changing where the line actually is, and does so by moving either to the inside or outside of the opponent's guard faster than the opponent can react. What I think it most interesting is you can see this difference in training artifacts in the footwork of both fencers, and really reinforces their overall point that beyond superficial similarities, there is evidence of two very unique systems of combat.
I appreciate this clean and concise demo. I've been trying to figure out why there is a such a division. And I learned alot from this.
FANTASTIC VIDEO! Great job. Always good to see Mr Farrell in a video. :D
Thank You my friend!
8:41 the coolest sword move , very kenjutsu styled
That was simply great! Thank you very much.
Federico, bene content mi amici. Grazie mille!
To summarize:
Fiore; chicken....always moving or staying away from the blade.
German: parry and hit the bloody fucker, with your very soul and life behind it.
More seriously, I love to see how that Fiore approach ends up making you safer from reach and measure both, possibly giving you a slight shorter tempo in any reaction. I think that focusing on moving away and keeping control in a middle line makes you less open to a quick tip disengage and thrust response.
But once mastered that explosive German approach of a bind scenario is flawless....more instinctive in a way. Although it needs perfect muscle memory to flow naturally....
I like Fiore for the intellectual approach of his system, thinking safety more that slaughter hence making it probably easier to teach to everyone.....
In the end it comes to who you are inside, how the flame of battle burns.
Grazie mille seniori !
Very instructive, I hope to see more of those style comparatives.
Not really. Fiore tends to avoid the medium distance that Liechtenauer favours. So if you need to stay far, stai far, if you need to close in, do so at a range where the opponent cannot hit you with the sword any more. Fiore has more close-up techniquest than long range ones. Liechtenaure keeps hitting you with the sword around the same medium range most of the time (with a few notable exceptions). The former is a very good strategy against armpured (even lightly armoured opponents). The latter is exceptionally effective against opponents without armour as germans very often dueled, but results in a lot of weaker hits that would incapacitate only someone without any kind of protection.
Cant say that I agree with that. For armour fighting you should be using the murder stroke ,short sword techniques, or grappling. You should only be using longsword techniques like this if you are fighting unarmoured.
Neither KDF or Armizare is any more or less effective in a duel or in personal combat and both were most likely used for sport and ernest fighting.
Great video! Very thorough evaluation and comparison!
Turul HEMA thank you Turul!
thanks for the video I always find realy interresting to compair equivalent techniques, it gives options.
We should have more videos like these. Very nice. Still, I don't really agree too much on some of the Fiore interpratations. In general my idea is that if you are reacting from a long-range attack you were not really expecting you go out of the way, but if you end up getting in a bind you move across the line to get better control of the opponent's blade.
Manweor I changed my interpretation radically since then so I am not going to defend it ;-)
@@FedericoMalagutti Nice, we'll talk about that in person next time
Very nice video. One minor thing i noticed, especially when you were demonstrating the weak bind situation: you step in on your attack before extending your sword. For ex 8:24
Hi Jon, well during first intention cuts it is not so easy to extend the weapon before the step, the step starts always a bit before/at the same time because you are supposed to land the cut while you are almost arrived on the place with your step, so in general weapon and steps start together or sometimes the sword start a little bit (in terms of 0,05 seconds) later than the step.
But of course I can be far more precise, if we speak about perfection, in making the things work together at the same time.
Federico Malagutti Fair enough. Thanks for the reply and for creating informative videos.
Thank you Jon
A bit off topic but..the scenery looks breathtaking.
A L thanks!! It is my mountain village, Pianaronda, which my family comes from.
It's awesome. Hope I'll get to pass by someday. :D
Federico Malagutti I was wondering where that was. Not too far from Como and Milano. Bello!
Yes, its more or less 2 hours of car from Milan.
Probably should have mentioned the different footwork - Lichtenauer insists on a pass, whereas Fiore will stay static/push step into the defence and then step
Your swords are beautiful! Where did you get them
Hi mate! Here you can find all the info you need about all my training swords:
fedemalablog.wordpress.com/category/swords-reviews/
All the bests!
Is it a safe generalization that Liechteanuer often exploits distance, Fiore often exploites time, and both utilize the strong and weak of the sword?
Le meccaniche di gioco largo e stretto hanno un forte parallelismo nell Eskrima filippina dove si hanno tre distanze (Larga Media Corta LAMECO) e nell ultima delle quali si colpisce proprio con il dente del serpente, l'equivalente del pomello della spada lunga
Interessante! Grazie Marco.
Great video! I am the president of the HEMA Club at the University of Dallas, and we have been invited to perform at our upcoming Presidential Inauguration. I am using this video, different actions from the crossing, as the main part of our demonstration, along with showing the various guards/wards, and a few ten-point sparing matches.
My question is: I would like to buy some more gloves for the club. I like both the pairs that you and Keith Farrell wear. Can you tell me where you bought them? Thanks, and keep up the great work!
Where did you record it? It's such a beautiful place :O
(If it doxxes somebody then nvm)
Almost everyone of my videos is shot in my Valley (Valsesia) or in one of its side valleys, like this one which was shot in Val Mastallone.
@@FedericoMalagutti thanks! Gotta visit the are some summer (assuming corona won't kill us all :v)
@@Sk0lzky big lol
Are you at the feet of the Alps? House looked very Swiss, which means all German, Italian and French traditional alpine houses.
I can't tell between them.....