Were the Byzantines Actually Romans?
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- čas přidán 9. 08. 2019
- A common debate among historians - Were the Byzantines really Romans, or were they a Hellenic civilization? Both?
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"We are descendants of the Hellenes and of the Romans."
Emperor Constantine XI Palaiologos,May 28th 1453
@walter cuperidge Italians are NOT the heirs of Rome
@@stepanpytlik4021 depends
I'd say the southern Italians are
The northerners are more Lombard-German than Roman
@walter cuperidge culturally speaking Central Italians don't exist
It's either north or south
Depends on where you go
@AlexNOSAM That should've been obvious
You're telling me that the Arabs that conquered Sicily didn't take Sicilian wives at some point? Although there is a basic difference between the Lombards and the Arabs of Italy
The Lombards stayed and culturally blended with the locals
The Arabs left, not leaving much of a noticeable impression behind.
Hey may i ask you something?
Calling them Greek isn’t even insulting or de-romanifying then in my opinion. The Romans modeled most of their society on Greece. High society of Rome used Greek as a prestigious and intellectual language whereas Latin was a lower class language. The Greeks weren’t historical slouches or barbarians either. They invented democracy. They started most liberal arts like history, philosophy, mathematics etc. if anything the Byzantine Empire was a more pure representation of Rome’s Greek aspirations.
Jackson Porter It was the love child of Greek Civilization Christianity and Roman Rule
Roman civilization had Greek influences, but it was quite distinct. The Romans who were obsessed with Greek culture were a tiny class of rich intellectuals, who did not exist until hundress of years after the founding of Rome (when the Republic had conquered most of Italy and become wealthy enough to support people with nothing better to do than learn poetry in foreign languages). Later Romans did model themselves after the Greeks, but only in a vague sense. It is similar to American founders modeling themselves after the Romans. Yes there is an influence, but they were British colonists, not Roman.
Jackson Porter agreed, but we are referring to a Roman Empire that had become Christian. In the eastern empire, the Greeks started calling themselves Romioi (as Hellenes or Graikoi were associated with polytheism) , they stopped being polytheist and started destroying and stealing Ancient Greek polytheist sites, as they were considered pagan. Thank God however that this didn’t continue much and the Byzantine Greeks learned to respect their ancestors.
Catch_Me_If_You_Can google it my guy
@Águila701 What do you mean by that?
In my opinion Byzantines are =
- Politically Roman
- Ethnically Greek
The ideal mix
Why, then, the greek speaking identified themselves almost always as Romans and quite rarely as Greeks? In the byzantine and post-byzantine texts the ethnic distinctions were between Romans, Armenians, Bulgarians, Albanians etc
@@antonislaz4781 Greek (Hellene) became a synonym for "Pagan". And I guess the Greek speaking Christians no longer identified themselves as their ancestors (Polytheistic) since many things changed. They were Roman citizens. However I can give you examples if you want of these 'Romans' that knew about their Greek ancestry.
Not only Roman citizens. Roman was their new national/ethnic identity and survived after the fall of the roman state as Romiosyni. They knew their ancient greek past, but, at the same time, believed that the foundation of New Rome changed their ethnic name and identity.
As Georgios Akropolitis (13th century) put it:
"[Greeks and Italians] they need not use their national names, a New Rome was built to complement the Elder one, so that all were called Romans after the common name of such great cities, and have the same faith and the same name for it. And just as they received that most noble name from Christ, so too did they take upon themselves the national (ethnikon) name [i.e., Romans]".
ethnically Greeks? oh yeah the same as the Father of the Byzantines, Costantines the Great, a Latine Speaking Illyrian!
Ironic that Romans believed themselves as successors of the Greek Empire, And Byzantium became Greek, thinking of themselves successors of the Roman Empire.
Great Piece !!
There was no "Greek Empire". Don't listen to dumb hellenistic nationalists.
The Eastern Roman and Greeks entitle dilemma is kinda look likes ; a high profile famously athlete as a main ambassador for Adidas but wearing a Puma dress on its body
@@xipo3532 Low IQ people like you are the reason why greece is such a shithole now. lol
really activates those almonds
@@xipo3532 Not long a ago i saw some Pagan Greeks, Holy cow, they are some most beautiful people i have ever seen. full of pride and confidence, don't have Political Correctness and don't mind of speaking honestly. also care about their own nation... Totally different with Christian Greeks. So not all Greeks are suffering from Stockholm syndrome though.
I am from Greece and my parents came from kontantinoupoli in 1976..the
Refer them self's in the terms...romioi..even today.
That's incredible!
I really want to meet people like that!
Have you heard of the surviving descendant of Constantine the last Emperor.
I'm Italian, from Siracusa. I love the idea that my ancestors are Romans and Greeks.
It is the.. my parents and there friends all they call them self's romioi meaning people of Rome..there are almost 3000 of them left in konstantinoupoli and with the last deportations in the 1950-1960 the came in Athens and Thesaloniki and form groups of people who suport greek football teams like AEK Athens and others..the team AEK is makeing a new football stadium call Ag Sofia
czcams.com/video/cFfLU0v1_Nc/video.html
@BLUE DOG If you're Greek, I'd say take some pride in your history. Your ancestors are Romans. Petros is your brother.
You greeks use to call Istanbul as it's former name Constantinople?
The definition of Roman simply changed throughout the time.
@Sacred Squadron they were already something different after 395. Latin West and Greek East
My granddad still refers to himself as "a Roman" .
Ah, a man of culture.
Also dont mind my name
based
@@pasal99 Why would you say that?
@I don’t exist For tax and insurance purposes Why does matter?
@I don’t exist For tax and insurance purposes He's from a village in northern Greece.
In lebanon, ppl who are Greek orthodox are called Roum, and families whom originally came from Greece have the last name of Roumi
That is because in Arabic, the Byzantine/Eastern Romans were called ar-Roum (collectively) and Roumie (individually). Eastern Romans appear both in the Quran and the Hadith literature and Mohammed's companions celebrated the Roman victory over the Persians. One of Mohammed's companions was an Arab Roman/Arab Byzantine named Suhayb ar-Roumi (Suhayb the Roman) who had a thick accent and blond hair. The Turkish "Erzurum" comes from Ard ar-Roum ("Land of the Romans"), a term used for Anatolia which was once one of the two main regional divisions of the Eastern Roman territory. Hence the Sufi philosopher Jalaleddin Rumi was titled so because he was born in Anatolia.
@@AshrafAnam, thank you for sharing this valuable information.
@@nadadragojevic3213 God bless us all, Amen.
@@AshrafAnam Yet almost not one person in the west knows this, I EVEN CONFRONTED my History Teacher with this and the fact that the Ottomans called Thrace (Rumelia) Aka the Roman Millet.
@@nadadragojevic3213 There is a Rock in Chyprus called ``Petra tou Romiou¨ ("Rock of the "Roman"")
Please to not share this with the Greek ultranationalists here or anywhere else if you dont want to get insulted.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra_tou_Romiou
Remember kids, the Roman Empire was _always_ Hellenistic, just in the later years it became properly Hellenic.
True. Greek culture was always dominant even during the Roman Empire's heyday.
Politically, institutionally, legally Roman. Culturally, religiously, linguistically Greek.
Fire of learning: Were the Byzantines Greek or Roman?
Byzantines: tf do you mean "or"??
@@user-qz4go8pf8llike what ethnicities?
@@battlehymnoftherepublic6037 lol
Byzantines were Greeks but Byzantine was Greek colony in antic. What are people wrongly referring today as b
Byzantine was actually Roman Empire. Greeeks in the begining were just part of the empire but while but after Roman E lost territoy in meaddle east greeks became majority and that is why greek language became no. 1.
@@battlehymnoftherepublic6037 shut up they are not greek also anatolian romans are roman not greek! Greeks calling anatolian romans as Anatolian greeks
@@battlehymnoftherepublic6037 oh sorry im confused i thought you are some greek
Roman Emperor Constantine divided the empire into east and west and moved east. SO it is a Roman empire.
The perfect name for a perfect city
You don't understand the question
@@user-fl7yh5fw5b The term greek meant the pagan.Eastern Roman Empire is greek.
@@user-fl7yh5fw5b Eastern Roman Empires population was mostly greek and hellenistic.The culture, the language were greek.Also there are noumerous politicians,heroes,saints who they call themshelves greeks such as Saints Cyril and Methodios.Yes they called themshelves Romans.In greek the term Ρώμη means strength so by calling themshelves Ρωμαίοι they mean the strong and faithful.Also the term Roman now doesnt mean the latin origin of rome but the spiritual way of Christians.So Basically every Christian was considered Roman.The empire is greek not just part of greek history.Constantinople is greek.Noone else claims the City and the Empire except Greece.Thats why in the empire they were all considered Roman citizens but they were from different ethnicity:Greeks,Armenians,Aithiopians,Slavs,Arabs
@@user-fl7yh5fw5b Of course they had some latin influence but not that much and only in the high place civilians.Cant think farmers in Pindos or fishermen in Minor Asia to speak latin,just no way.They kept what was good from the ancient greek heritage.All Big and Great saints knew about ancient greek philoshophy and they reject just what was against the morallity of christianity.By hellenistic i meant hellenized populations of the middle-east.After 610 when emperor Heraclius established greek as the official language the latin influence was gone long before.After 1204 there were 2 other empires.Trebizond and Nicaia also in Greece Despotate of Epirus.All these were greek and they tried to reconquer Constantinople to establish again the empire.In conclusion i want to say that when the empire was weakened and had many enemies everywhere the greeks were the basic population.
Welcome to the fall of rome. Where everyone claims to be you successor
Dragus F boi u better not be downplaying the Eastern Roman Empire!
But for real, in my perspective the Byzantines/Eastern Roman Empire is the only real case for a successor or continuation of Rome.
The Holy Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire were bologna and not in any way a continuation of Roman civilization.
@@Thormil576 yep. Eastern roman empire was the sequel that was decent then the ottomans is the 3rd movie no one likes
@@Thormil576 Well i'd understand your argument about the Holy Roman empire, but the Ottomans claimed to be their successor based on right of conquest, they did not see themselves as Romans.
Samoa is Third Rome!
What a shame really. It would be a dream for Greece if theTurks realized that they are in fact Turkified and Islamized Roman Greeks and eventually revealed to an avid Byzantinism. Funny thing that would also offend the Greeks and also give them an identity crisis
My favorite era of Roman History. Enemies on all sides. Preservation of a culture, an identity, a tradition when the founding city was only within the borders on and off. No nonsense emperors. What the empire could have been. Roman statehood lasting well into the 15th century. What a history.
@Nguyen Le Hoang because there was already a Greek Empire and it was under Alexander the Great which had successor Diadochis.
Ok but that is not Rome anymore. What about when Roman empire sti meant, ROMAN... when citizenship meant something and the senate existed. When the empire was still the most powerfull state in human history, and Rome the center of the world.
@@leonardodavid2842 I don't get you mate, the Roman Empire was world Superpower #1 all the way until 1204
And if you researched the matter you'd knew the Senate fell together with Rome in 1453
Also the New Rome was center of the world
So it's literally the same thing, just evolved
@@cyrclack5616 I'd argue Byzantium being a superpower until 1204. I'd argue even the very existence of any superpower after Justinian and until the Ottomans and the European colonial empires, not counting China.
@@lucaventinove3151 There really isn't that much room for arguement here, they _were_ a Superpower, both economically and militarilly no one could stand against them and the ones who did are the two notable exceptions that ended up being it's downfall
In the Chronicles of the First Crusade Anna Komnene (although she most definitely used a hyperbole) and the Crusaders mention rooms filled with gold and treasure
Others from other times mention ingenius mechanical contraptions and gold plated crude ""robots""
The military is not a question here, it was enormous, disciplined, plus they had quite a handful of tricks
If no one you know can beat you in anything then by definition you are a superpower
The Arabs , Persians and pretty much everyone in the area called them romans , in fact they still do to this day.
They are Romans just with heavy Greek influence due to their geography
They called them that because the Byzantines called themselves Romans, but it’s a misnomer
@@user-jt7gc1fp1k and yet, although based on the christian faith, the name they chose for themselves, helene / ellines is pagan, meaning sun-worshippers..?
@@lindaS_ If you were to time travel when the West 'fell' no one would have thought, "oh, that's the end of the Roman Empire". It was a significant loss of territory and a sign of the diminishing prospects, but they would’ve thought that it will later be reconquered just like all the previous civil wars. they still considered themselves Romans, and the Roman Empire. let’s say the Eastern Roman Empire fell and the western half survived. The western Roman Empire adopts Christianity as an offical religion in the empire and a lot of cultural and political reforms happen and they slowly assimilates into the medieval and early reconnaissance era, but as years pass, more civil wars erupt and they later lose Roman Provence’s in North Africa, Britannia, and Hispania. Just like the Byzantine empire Germanic influence becomes widely spread in the western Roman Empire and the most spoken language becomes German instead of “Latin”. I guarantee historians centuries later will have to come up with a new title to distinguish it (just like the Byzantine empire) from the original ancient United Roman Empire. Here’s another example, let’s say the US was split into East and West. The western half of the United States are mostly latino/Hispanic, African American, and Native American and speak mostly Spanish while the eastern half speaks mostly English. They found a their new capital in Los Angeles. But the eastern half of the US falls and the Western half survives but evolves into something else. Because there are more Spanish speakers in the west, the official language gradually becomes Spanish. And the religion changes to Catholicism instead of Protestantism. The people in the west keep calling themselves the “Western United States”, but are they still or do historians also centuries later have to come up with a new name to distinguish these people from the old Anglo American protestants in the US?
@@xELITExKILLAx it's NOT a misnomer lmao, tell me how tf the Eastern Romans ain't Romans
Well the Byzantians called themself Romans, and the Empire saw itself as THE ROMAN EMPIRE, not as a successor!
Yeah but didn’t the Ostrogoths think that way too? Those guys seriously believed they were the inheritors of Rome
@@Rokaize what about the ottomans.
Or the franks
Or the germans
And they believe correctly because until the last day of Byzantine rule the population of what we can tell Rumelia and Asia Minor werd subjects to Roman Emperors and states that claimed to ve descendands and inheritants of the Roman Empire for 1600 years. On the other side, the Ostrogoths never claimed to be the legal inheritants of the Empire. That's the reason it was abolished in the Western part and the Gothic kingdom of Italy was founded.
Because the Roman and Hellenic cultures combined in a unique and beautiful way and nobody in the west seems to (want) to understand it.
Romans had Greek culture.
modern greeks still want to rebuild the byzantine empire, modern day romanians see themselves as the bridge between western latinity and eastern roman orthodoxy.
@@marcelcostache2504 Modern greeks are mostly educated people who care about welfare , progress and not the rebuilding of any of their former empires.
@@faniskou and what do they have to show for it
@@Stephen-uz8dm the entire western world is based on greeko-roman culture, religion, languages and education, even modern day Europe still uses a modern interpretation of Justinians CORPUS JURIS CIVILIS JUSTINIANI aka the Napoleonic code, a number of modern day languages are based on latin, and others have massive greek and latin vocabulary im looking at you English.
In Greece we still call ourselves ''Romioi''(aka Romans)
And our forefathers who took up arms and revolted against the Ottomans in the 1820's called themselves Romans. One of the prominent figures of the Greek revolt when asked by the British admiral Hamilton why the poor Greeks don't seek British mediation between them and the Turks, he answered "our last King died fighting, we'll do the same" (he was speaking of the last Emperor, Palaeologus)
No, we don't :D
Hercules Koutalidis In our literature, in our songs, in the stories of our fathers, everywhere in our culture...yes we do. I guess you must live in a completely different Greece...
The famous poem ''Ρωμιοσυνη''...I wonder what's about(I think it's still in schools) ? When the Pontic Greeks speak about ''Ρωμανια'' ...do they actually speak about the modern country ? When a famous singer sung the song ''Ρωμιος αγαπησε Ρωμια'' I also wonder, what was it about ? You youngsters...
Και για να το πω σε απλα βραζιλιάνικα. Στο συλλογικο υποσειδητο του Ελληνα(και όχι μονο)οι λεξεις Ελληνας και Ρωμιος είναι ταυτοσημες. Ετσι το πηραμε από τους παλιους. Τα τελευταια 30 χρονια βεβαια πολλα αλλαξαν. Όπως το παμε ισως στο μελλον katadisoyme na jexasoyme akoma kai to elliniko alfabhto...
Eastern Roman empire IS the Roman empire. It's just that the eastern part was more influenced by the Greeks and easterners
@@user-fl7yh5fw5b Canada speaks half French and English. Just like the Roman Empire spoke Latin and Greek. However, all Canadians are Canadians. And all Romans are Romans.
Whats left of what was the Roman empire* cant have Roman in your name without Rome. Not accurately anyway
@Philip Manousakis Constantinople was Constantinople and is Istanbul. Rome was and is Rome. Not the same city dude. No Rome, no Romans. Pretty simple
@Philip Manousakis you mean the Greeks disagree with me? Call it whatever you like, but its not Roman without Rome. Only 1 Rome is truly Rome. The one with the Colosseum. No Rome, not Roman. Why is this so hard for people to understand?
@Philip Manousakis England was in the roman empire for hundreds of years, doesnt make it roman. Same with France and Spain. Not roman. Same with greece, egypt, north africa, and the middle east. Part of the roman empire for a long time yes, actually Roman no.
English is a Germanic language, doesn't mean England is German.
The so called Byzantine empire always referred to themselves as Romans.
@@legioromanaxvii7644 After invasion of the christians yes but the roman greek root is always pagan
Did most people in Europe liked to think of themselves as Romans at this time?
@@happybeach777 The French, Spanish, Italians called themselves Romans until the 7th century AD. The peoples of North Africa who spoke Latin thought of themselves as Romans until the Arabs invaded them in the 7th century. The Romanians today, sill retain ancient Roman identity. The Greek-speakers of the Eastern Empire (not only Greeks but also Hellenized peoples) called themselves Romans well after the Eastern Empire died. There are still Greek-speaking Turks who call themselves Rumlar which word for word means Roman, although outsiders see them as Greeks. It is all based on how we view ourselves, and how others within communities view one another. This is the basis of ethnicity.
@@legioromanaxvii7644 would this include The Germans and maybe upperclass english? Germany had the balls to call themselves the Holy Roman Empire. Lol
@@happybeach777 It would not. The formation of the HRE occurred after the Roman identity in the West faded out. The Germans living north of the Roman-German border never had a Roman identity, and at this time the Franks were calling themselves Franks, not Romans. There was a small community in Aquitaine, France, which continued to self-identity as Romans until the 11th century. The Franks knew them as the "Romans", but after that century we never hear of Romans in the west again.
"There were even many non-Greek Byzantine emperors as well -- many Armenians, for example."
Thank you, sir, for acknowledging my people's contribution to history.
Armenians were the brave frontiers of Byzantinium. In Greece we still sing for the brave Akrites.
@@aokiaoki4238 Can you sand me a song please.
@@aokiaoki4238 And all of them are Greeks!Like Armenians then(Ioannis Tsimiskis for example)
Lots of Armenians are Greeks until today.Like Ioannis Tsimiskis
@@olympiakosg.7ns-hellas16 Mixed
Who but the Greeks can claim to be the successor of an empire, based on the Greeks
The Romans were of Greek descent. They were a mixture of the Greek Etruscans and Trojans with the native European Latin tribes.
its always been my opinion that the Byzantine empire or as it should be called the eastern roman empire. Was the only continuation the ottomans and Germans mearly tried to emulate the greatness of Rome just look at the land area the different powers controlled
greeks were successors of Macedonian and Athenian empires
@@logosrises1900 The story of Trojan descent of the Romans is a legend invented by 1st century roman poets as a propaganda thing. If you still believe in this fairy tale, you just prove you are gullible enough to believe in a 20 centuries old piece of fake news.
@@logosrises1900 wat?
Byzantines spoke Greek and were Christian and yes they considered themselves Romans
yup they considered themselves romans coz they were and not like wannabes after western empire fell and new empires that came kept calling themselves inheritors... eastern roman empire was truly roman empire... and people tend to forget eastern empire was created so as to manage it properly and their main battles were in the east so they moved their capital east
Byzentine suppose to be pagan instead of christians
@@midnightblue3285 no.
@@Kanal7Indonesia It is judea chsitianty hiject the european land
They only considered themselfs Romans but were Greek.
East Roman Empire
Yeah the Eastern Roman Empire that is the true name the name byzantine was used to depose the ERE and for the HRE to take power
The Roman Empire never ceased to be the Roman Empire, it was just living its byzantine era
we turks still call greeks rum (romans)
@@seekthetruth4218 Roman is not a race greeks are the successors of roman empire
1st You didn't call us Yunan?
2nd If this is really then you call us Romius not Romans
Ρωμαίος is Italian-Latin
Ρωμιός came from the latin word but from 1453 to 1821 you were saying us like that making the word to be mentioned in Greek people
@@Nektaris_Ikariotakis Roum ("Romans") = Orthodox Byzantine Greeks. [today, Turkish Greek speaking community]
Younan ("Ionians") = Hellenic Ancient Greeks. [today, people of Greece]
Both were derived from Arabic. Hence, the medieval Perso-Arabic system of medicine based on ancient Greek medicine of Hippocrates and Galen was called "Younani" medicine.
Long live greece
Alper irtiş don’t Turks call Greeks yunan and Greece is yunanistan ?
Indeed another name for "Greek" up to today is "Romios" aka roman and the greek nation is also known as "Romiosini"
And in Turkey, a Turkish citizen of Greek descent is referred to as a "Rum", which is the archaic word for "Roman".
Well thats wrong, Byzantine empire was hellenic
Turgut Unal
My Pontic Greek grandparents referred to themselves as “Rum” until they died, even though they’d been living in the States for decades.
However, Greeks equating the word Hellen with Romaios is not correct. Our forebears were indeed Romans who thought themselves the successors of Augustus Caesar, Constantine and Scipio Africanus. There are still remnants of this identity within our modern Greek identity, mostly emanating from Orthodox Christianity. We are Greeks today because see ourselves as children of Aristotle and Plato, but our ancestors had a Roman identity instead of a Greek one. It is false that the Eastern Roman Empire was Greek. Instead, we had become Romans, a part of a Greek-speaking and partially Latin-speaking realm which once was a huge world power for centuries.
@@user-qz4go8pf8l
Υπάρχει ο Ρωμαϊσμός, που είναι αυτό που υποστηρίζεις εσύ, ότι δηλαδή οι Έλληνες έγιναν Ρωμαίοι. Μια ποιο ακραία θέση είναι πως έπαψαν να είναι Έλληνες και ήταν μόνο Ρωμαίοι, κάτι που υποστηρίζει και ο Ρωμαϊστής Βυζαντινολόγος Αντώνης Καλδέλλης. Από την άλλη υπάρχει μια σχολή σκέψης που υποστηρίζει το αντίστροφο, δηλαδή πως οι Μεσαιωνικοί Ρωμαίοι (τάχα Βυζαντινοί) ήταν Ρωμαίοι μόνο ονομαστικά και κατά τα άλλα εντελώς Έλληνες, δίχως Ρωμαϊκή Συνείδηση, οι οποίοι είναι οι Βυζαντινιστές.
Προσωπικά πιστεύω σε κάτι ανάμεσα, που θα καλούσα ως Ελληνορωμαϊσμός. Δηλαδή την άποψη ότι οι Ρωμαίοι ήταν αρχικά Γραικοί, που ως πολιτική οντότητα κατέκτησαν και αφομοίωσαν άλλου βαρβαρικούς λαούς, και σταδιακά εκβαρβαρίστηκαν και ιταλοποιήθηκαν, και η διάλεκτό τους διαχωρίστηκε και αποξενώθηκε από την Ελληνική, όπως και οι ίδιοι. Σταδιακά με την προσάρτηση της Μεγάλης Ελλάδας επανελληνίστηκαν και τελικά ένωσαν τον Ελληνισμό υπό μια κρατική οντότητα, δίνοντας τέλος στις διακρατικές ελληνικές εμφύλιες διαμάχες. Έτσι οι Ρωμαίοι ήταν Έλληνες, και οι Έλληνες έγιναν Ρωμαίοι, δίχως να πάψουν να είναι Έλληνες, κι ας είχαν ταυτιστεί οι όροι, όχι μόνο πολιτικώς αλλά και εθνικώς.
Με τον τρόπο αυτό, καθώς οι Ρωμαίοι ήταν υποσύνολο του Ελληνισμού και το ένωσαν, ώστε το όνομά τους έγινε συνώνυμο με εκείνο του Έθνους, είμαστε πρωτίστως Έλληνες/ Γραικοί, αλλά και Ρωμαίοι, καθώς οι όροι δεν αναιρούνται αμφότερα αλλά είναι σχεδόν ταυτόσημοι.
go ask an Arab Christian and he or she will tell you Constantinople is Roman
No lol
نعم رومانية شرقية ولكن نطلق على اليونانيين اسم الروم والكنائس كلھا يونانية رومية
Who else will miss that "Ευχαριστώ" at the end of the videos?
U greek? cause "ευχαριστώ" means thanks in Greek
@@coinreviewer6196 no, I'm Brazilian who likes Greek enough to install its keyboard without understand almost nothing.
Br?
@@makky6239 yeah
@@abacaxi.maldoso Like we adore Socrates..etc
Historians shouldn't go around re-naming things. That's why I've never cared for the word 'Byzantium.' They are the Eastern Romans. Call them the Greco-Romans if you want, but more than anyone else they are the heirs to the original Roman Empire.
Charlemagne's Frankish Kingdom has a case for being an heir, too, but the largely Germanic Kingdoms of the Holy Roman Empire have almost no case at all.
The HRE at least held Rome for some time, unlike the LARPing Russian and Ottoman empires...
That was one reason for everybody to keep both names ( roman) and flags ( double headed eagle later on) to remain in the game of been related to rome and what is derived of it as land and heritage ( wheath and power) . The germans were put into the game by the pope ( even by faulse pseudo claims)
Franks had only Byzantine heritage not Roman. Get your historical facts right.
More than anything they ARE the original Roman Empire. I also don't understand why you believe Charlemagne's empire would count as an heir (what with it's differing laws, culture, and government), but the later HRE wouldn't.
@@tejdandekar Later cause pope declare so and the pope is always right! Then the lang on the pictures shown here on the video is what?
They are Romans. No matter what anyone tries to say they call them selves Romans and so did the world and the Turks. With rum.
Greeks called themselves Roman too dummy
The eastern Mediterranean was never latinized. It was hellenized from the time of Alexander, all through the Roman Empire and the Byzantines. When the capital moved from the latin west to the greek east that process of transformation only accelerated. The term "roman" was adopted for political purposes. To give these multi-ethnic peoples a common citizenship and to give justification to the ruling elite in case of future reclaiming of territories lost to barbarians.
The Byzantines are Romans too, Greek culture was already an integral part of Roma even before the split into the western and Eastern part
If you ask a guy who has a little knowledge about this. In old Rome Greek amd Roman were the superior cultures of the empire and all other cultures were barbarian. Many of Rome's early expeditions were against the Greek state of the Late Alexander the greats conquest. In fact Rome's treatment was of Greek conquest was far better than it's absolute destruction of Carthage. The two cultures shared God's and other significant cultural similarities. Greek culture thrived in Rome as did Roman culture in Greece. Therefore Byzantium or Eastern Rome is the ultimate meld of those two cultures. Greek people who had become roman citizens enjoyed the benefits of being Roman while retaining their culture. Byzantine is the name given to the East by it's descendants and it's conquerors.
You say "Roman culture" as if it is actually possible to seperate it from greek culture...
actually the term "byzantine empire" didn't even exist during its existence, it's just the term an historian that came centuries after its fall created to more easily differentiate it from western rome.
@@spiritbond8Well said
It was the eastern leg of the Roman Empire. Of course it was loaded with WOPS. It also lasted a thousand years longer than the western leg
People should just call it the Eastern Roman Empire instead of Byzantine.
I agree.
Well said.
I've been hearing Eastern Roman Empire more and more often in the last 10 years.
Well but it's not like Byzantine is a derogatory term itself, I think there's no difference between ERE and the Byzantine Empire but I think Byzantine is an easier way to say "Eastern Roman empire"
@@iustinianusspeedruns well if the people of the time call themselves the Roman Empire call them by that and just put East on it.
Man I really want an Eastern Rome tv series on Netflix that takes place during the Crusades
Ever heard of the world famous term “Graeco-Roman” so where’s the issue? The Roman Empire was always Greek-Latin... where’s the contradictions between “Greek” and “Roman” here? Too few people have ever opened a book.
The problem comes from clowns who refer to the Byzantine empire as purely roman and say things like "they considered themselves to be romans" even though we greeks called ourselves romans until the 19th century
@@Me-yq1fl most of the empires population was greek and they spoke
@@KingMacuilmiquiztli except that eastern Romans survived their Roman identity far longer than Italians lol. Ever heard of Lebanese Rum = Romans. Balkans to Syria was literary Romania = Romanland.
@@TheIronChancellor pre fourth crusade no, interior Anatolia wasn't as hellenic as originally thought. Balkan was full of Slavs. Dalmatian and Albanian don't speak Greek. The aristocrat mainly can spoke Greek, but more than half were Anatolian and Armenian origin.
@@hachibidelta4237 That's what I want to say there were more slavs than Roman's in the byzantine empire
Greeks who officially called themselves 'romans' but also 'ellines' which means greeks
they werent just greeks... thats just something we greeks think... there were thracian people(probably speaking greek or latin at that point), dalmatian people(speaking latin most probably), other balkan people, there were armenians, georgians, syrians and other levantine people and egyptians... the greek part was with the language and the general sense of culture... greeks being in the most vital parts and cities of the time(constantinople, thessaloniki, alexandria etc) formed the culture of the rest of the people within or out of the empire pretty much like today we are being influenced by what americans do... (για παραδειγμα το ματακι που εχουμε για γουρι, ειναι ενα ελληνικο "παγανιστικο" στοιχειο το οποιο εξαπλωθηκε σε ολη την ανατολικη μεσογειο και ακομα και σημερα πολλοι μουσουλμανοι πιστευουν στο γουρι αυτο)
It's funny because the "Byzantines" were the Romans, while the civilization back west was the Frankish kingdom, who got called Roman for some reason but weren't at all.
frankish Empire*
Pat McDermott this is the best comment so far.
The Greeks stopped recognizing the Pope’s power so they were no longer Roman. The Byzantines were Greek and the Frankish Kingdom was the Franks, neither were ethnically Roman anyways, but the Pope had the power and when the Byzantines cut off the Pope they stopped being Roman. The Pope had the power
@@xELITExKILLAx that sounds pretty dumb. up until that point the pope had no power over the roman empire whatsoever except for influencing the papal states and part of the west and even then not as much. It was when the pope of rome got on his knees begging for Frankish protection did the contest of power begin. You should read that part.
@@padraigmcdermott5533 you’re not understanding. I don’t mean literal power, I mean religious power. The Byzantines stopped being Roman Catholic. They cut ties with Rome itself. That makes them no longer Roman and something new instead
The Roman Empire started as an Italian empire and evolved into a Mediterranean world Empire. The royal dynasties that ruled The Roman Empire came from Europe, the Middle East and Africa. The Eastern Roman Empire aka Byzantine was a natural evolution of the Roman Empire from the Classical era to the Middle Age. Thousand of years empires are not static, they evolved into something else.
no dont comfuse culture with nationality the 1st 300 years they were feeling romans but ethnically were greeks with the start of the arab wars the empire passed in greek hands totally even in army were forbitten to speak latin
Rome was founded by a Hellenic tribe not Italians ffs.
@@Imperium83 which tribe ?
@@Imperium83 what a huge BS
@@spartan9540 The romans claimed that they were descended from the Trojans. However it is more likely that their ancestors migrated from Anatolia + greece (which includes troy) in a broader sense
Byzantium is the Latin word for Byzantion, an ancient Greek colony built by Byzas from Megara.
Roma - Romans, hmm inheritance of Rome perhaps?
So I am actually from there...... greek of pontus/ byzantine/ Roman...... by today standard it would be like that: nationality Roman, ethnicity Greek. Just like that, and yes Greeks of pontus even today some times call ourselves Roman's but never byzantines
Greeks were living there for 8000 years, we were never a country there just villages and small cities, the Roman's United us in a single nation, like Macedonia or Sparta etc we were and still are the great Pontus!!!!! Our first independent east Roman emperor Constantine was an "Italian" Roman but all the rest of the byzantine empire were pure blooded authentic greeks of pontus !!!!!
Serbians are slavs..... slav is coming from a greek word sklav ( σκλάβος ) witch mean slave, 2000 years ago slavs and germans used to be the same race....... 8000 years is the history of pontus not the greek in general, 800 years is the end of micenians and start of Athens, pontians are far older than any other greek nations, from Istanbul to Kazakhstan and from izmir to Ukraine, before the slavs and before the mongols, all of this territory, read right!!! We weren't a country, we were just living there, building and trading, we are a nation of workers, builders, fishers, farmers and merchants, war wasn't something we liked and that is why we were defeated so many times by so many empires.....
And yes, we did steal the mythology, BUT NOT FROM THE SLAVS, YOU DIDNT EVEN EXIST TILL WE BEAT THE ETRUSCANS IN ITALY AND FORCED THEM TO GERMANY AND THEN TO THE BALKANS !!!! THATS RIGHT THE TRUE ITALIANS ARE ACTUALLY THE SLAVS AND THE GERMANS AND THE MODERN ITALIANS ARE DESCENDANTS OF THE IONIAN GREEKS THAT COLONIZED SOUTH ITALY MANY YEARS AGO !!!!! any way, we did stole the mythology but we did it to the Hinduism, we based our big family of gods on the hindu mythology some 10000 years ago, same as many many years later the Jews stole our mythology, if you generalize everything and think about it, jesus is based on Hercules
@George Washington from who? Funny before they stole everything alterate every single artifact claim greeks phoinicians subsaharian s etc
@George Washington serbs are not from there they absorbe indigenus balcans
Roman Empire. But without the Rome
Love your Roman/Byzantine video. Thanks for you work on them.
It is simple:
People: Greek
Citizenship: Romans
Many times i ve tried to explain to greek persons that Roman Empires(and not byzantine that was the name given by Holly Roman Empire to prove that they are the succesors of the Roman empire ) was a country with many ethnicities and not a greek one even after the empire adopted greek languange .And the people in the balkans in that time weren t only greek ,the latin ones as well until the slav conquered that area and were lied by monks to create another alphabet (cyrylic one) because of the 4th crusade devided the Roman empire into many kingdoms formed in the former land of Roman empire and all tried to form the former Roman empire check en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bulgarian_Empire and it wasn t Bulgarian at all ,the ruling house was latin ,the people spoke latin and not cyrilic like in these days .Cyrilic alphabet in those days were only used by people who could read and writte and weren t so many (church ) .
@@user-qz4go8pf8l shut up
@@battlehymnoftherepublic6037 Constantine was actually of illyrian origin not greek at all
Your videos, just make sense of history. The underlying reasons for your assertions, again, just make sense. Thanks!
Constantinople is called a New Rome or Rome II
Nova Roma
Well the simplistic answer would be they were both. It was a Greek speaking Roman Empire. Also keep doing more on Greco Roman history it’s really fun and interesting. Also have a good day everyone!!
@Philip Arvanitidis That's essentially the point I made
In Quran Byzantine Empire is called Roman
because it was ROMAN.
pretty much all but those who had a stake in the HRE called them romans up to the 16th century. the greeks only stopped calling themselves romans at the time of the independece war, this was a political choice to get support from other states in their independence war. if they called themselves romans they would innherently be claiming all of romes old land and making enemies they could not afford.
@@mazzaker18 No one can claim anything, this isn’t the Middle Ages
@@Genius766 the greek war of independence didnt happen this year? .... nations do still claim things this year... just look at pakistan-india-china claiming mess..
@@user-hw4px4lo3i But by blood and DNA they were the progeny of the ancient Greeks.
I always wondered about this, thanks for explaining in a detailed and easily understandable way.
By bringing Glory to Holy Roma and Imperator Justinianus. I, Belisarius, am by God’s grace the last true Roman.
Modern Greeks consider themselves Romans, so Beli is not the last. Do not say that loud to my grandfather. He is a proud Rhomios.
Weird how Greeks were part of the Empire(~1600 years) longer than any other ethnicity even the Italic Latins.
Yeah hadn't thought of that this way.
A good symbolic gesture (although the Latins didn't overall decide a serious help move), some Genoans ( who were Italic Latins) fought together with the few remaining Greeks at the siege against the Ottoman army.
@walter cuperidge That's not true.
Italy and Egypt ceased to have special administration during the course of the third century and after the tetrarchy system, all the roman empire had the same administration, with province, diocese and praetorian prefecture.
After the Caracalla edit, all the free men of the empire became roman citizens and Rome became more an abstraction and a national ideal than a city for the people. It was during these centuries that the people started to use the term Romania to describe the empire and started saying that "Rome" was the place where the emperor lived. And even before that, the roman citizenship was granted to many people in the province, which described themself as roman.
For exemple, the chrsitian apostle Paul described himself as a man with two Patris (fatherland) Rome and Tarsos.
Rome (the city) had a symbolic importance during the first centuries of the empire, because the majority of the religious and political ceremonies to make an emperor had to happen in the city. But after the foundation of Constantinople (which was a second Rome, with a senate and the religious background which allowed imperial proclamation), and the proclamation of christianism as state religion, Rome became less important.
@walter cuperidge that's true man, im Italian and I know the history of my Land.
Greeks ? Are you seriously there can comment everyone but everyone came and write bullshits the fake country which you call greece is created in 1821 by the germans bavarian ...in all the history the word greeks dont exist before how can be greeks 1600 years ?
great point
"Present your shield, swords, arrows, and spears to them, imagining that you are a hunting party after wild boars, so that the impious may learn that they are dealing not with dumb animals but with their lords and masters, THE DESCENDANTS OF THE HELLENES AND THE ROMANS."
Constantine Palaologus XI speaks in front of his officers and allies before the final siege of Constantinople by the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed Bey
George Sprantzes - The Fall of the Byzantine Empire 1453 primary source from the war.
Fire Of Learning The reader has a really good reading voice for these videos. He knows when to add stress to certain words and phrases that help to catch the listener's attention. I appreciate this because sometimes I'm listening while doing something else and when he catches my attention, I know to listen up for a very good point.
Constantine Palaiologos himself in the end proclaimed Constantinople the "refuge for Christians, hope and delight of all HELLENES".
George Phrantzes, History, 3.6.
Never existed Byzantine empire only East Roman empire!
@@Jacob-qh3ec Nope. Eastern Roman Empire never called Byzantine Empire while ot existed. Although Greeks constitued majority of populations they never called themself Greeks, they called themself Romans. Greek was official language though. Eastern Roman Empire was legal continuacy of Roman Empire. First time someone called it Byzantine was 100 years after it fell by german historian
@@matejmasina2182 nop they have they own flag they create a flag. If they was Roman empire they would have the same flag. They were all GREEKS. The emperor the people the language the culture all Greek and they was fighting in the wars with Greek tactics (btw sorry for my bad English)
@@Jacob-qh3ec I am not saying they were not greek. Also countries change their flags during time. I am only saying name, term "Byzantine" was not used. They were legal continuation of Roman empire. That is why emperor Justinian wanted to reclaim lost parts after fall of west. Also greeks claims on east roman empires are made by Greek nationalists to claim more land but unlikely they would remove name of their country from Greece to Byzant.
@@matejmasina2182 broo all the emperors of the Byzantine empire was Greeks and do you know what the last emperor of Byzantine Konstantinos say? Drop your arrows to the ottomans to see that they are fighting with greeks
@@Jacob-qh3ec Let me tell you something. Country of Greeks is Greece, people of Roman Empire are Romans. You can not have 2 countries. Either you have Greece or you have Roman Empire and you do not have Roman Empire. Roman was or is on higher level then any other nationality. It was collection of different nationalities. Greeks became majority only after Roman Empire lost Egypt, middle east, Italy... Those people were Greeks by origin but they were Romans and they called themself Romans. It was never different country. It was Roman Empire all along. Problem is that Roman Empire is today so romanticised that everyone has hard on when they hear its name. Everyone was so jealous of it but the truth is everyone would hate it if it would exist today.
The Roman empire was the continuation of the Hellenic (Greek) world. The Hellenic world came back and became an empire (The eastern Roman Empire) using the title Roman at the beginning for politic reasons. Title and Land legalization for example. Do not forget that before the raise of the city of Rome, people in the Italian peninsula assimilate the Hellenic philosophy and way of life also the same Gods. For decades the Greek city Naples was the top city in central and southern Italy. Sicily was also Hellenic (Greek). So It is really complicated but in general yes it was a Greek Empire ruled by Roman laws. It is not wrong to call this empire a Roman or Byzantine
Sorry but you are totally wrong. In all you say. Hellenic is not unknown. We all know who Hellines are. The Greeks. Greeks had almost nothing to do with Mesopotamia or Egypt in comment. It is like comparizon today western culture and Midle east culture
@lagjes cuni2 you know so little. Let's start with basics and you find the way by your self. Achaeans, Aeolians, Ionians and Dorians are the four tribes who emerged and became Hellines. whatever you want to call us Romans, Byzantines, Greeks it is the same. All that means Hellines
This video and the previous one has inspired me to look into the Bynzatines, or “Eastern Romans” a lot more and I will try and memorize the names of all the Dynasties that were in power over it such as Leonid, and Kommenos just to name a couple. It would be great to see some sort of Film or Television series that goes into more depth and detail about Byzantium for sure, while remaining accruate!
Eastern Rome*
Here's my honest opinion. I don't think the fact that the "Byzantine Empire" was Greek hurt their legitimacy whatsoever, because according to Roman mythology, Romans are the descendants of Aeneas who fled to Italy from Troy (Which was a greek city-state), which would mean Romans were a greek people technically in the first place. So the fact that Byzantium ended up majority Greek again anyway, actually kinda doesn't matter. If you were to ask a Roman Court, in 100 AD that could see the future "Was Byzantium the true successor to Rome?", they would probably say 'Yes'.
Andrew Bridson The Turks didn’t arrive in Anatolia until the 11th century with the Seljuk invasion
Troy was not a hellen city, it was a getae city.
I really love the Aenid
The Roman Empire was like a big country with multiple ethnic groups just like the modern USA. Today blacks, whites and native Americans are all considered Americans in the same way that Greeks, Latinos and Celts were all considered to be equally Roman. The Catholic Church later tried to de-Romanize the Greeks because they were a threat to the supremacy of the Pope in Rome. Eastern Romans essentially invented Christianity. All the major Christian sites were located in the Eastern Roman Empire and the New Testament was originally written in Greek so the Eastern Roman Empire was the center of the Christian world.
Troy wasn’t exactly a Greek city state. They were part of a different ethnic group of European people that was closer to the later Persians than Greeks. Their race was almost entirely assimilated many centuries later by Alexander the Great’s conquest and now they’re considered common ancestors of most Eurasian people including Greeks. In a way Troy’s DNA exists in modern Greeks but not ancient Greeks if that makes sense.
P.S. I’m not saying Troy was Turkish but an entirely different culture that doesn’t exist anymore. Turks showed up in the Middle Ages 2000 years later.
The people's of "Byzantine empire" ( actually east Roman empire) calle himself Romans and the imperator called Roman imperator! And the empire easte Roman empire
Learn history. Romans were greeks
Yes but it’s a misnomer
Didnt the leaders call themselves basileus/basilissa or autokrator
Hey can y’all make more videos about Rome and Spain
I have another video similar to this coming soon
When you look at the maps, Spain used to be all sorts of stuff but not spain
@@Fireoflearning
Please consider the Basque - and try to imagine their origination (use their Oral History - which I along with Reasonable - Artifact Awareness and Mind Open to - Statistics and Standards of Research determining the Data and Outcomes - Anthropologists, Researchers, and many devoted Ancient Historians - actually believe has a real foundation - course we are neither Fraternal nor Mainstream)
Enjoy your work '-
Spain is the successful Roman children.
Roman Empire until to end of empire (fall of Konstantinoupoli )Greek speaking the citizens of course and orthodox or east Christian if you like
It is stupid to say Greek,it was and will be Roman.My parents too just like Petro came from Constantinople and they call themselfs Romioi and the term Greek became in 19 or 20th century.The term Hellenes wasnt known to them too.They alway call themselfs Romans.Today I live in Albania and even today we are Romioi.
Byzantium is the region where Constantinoupolis is, which was named after Byzantas, the Megareus.(Megara is a town in modern Hellas which happened to be an ancient colonial empire around 600 BC, which is where I am from). So... Byzantium was a thing centuries before the Byzantine Empire.
@Alex the dominator Και στο Wikipedia να πατήσεις το έχει
Exactly this. I studied this in school ( in Rome) a long time a go. This video doesn't even mentioned it, I can't believe it!
That doesn't make the Byzantine not a Roman empire tho
During the last Emperor's Speech before the the fall of the city, among others he said to his soldiers:
''Do not be afraid. Throw them spears and arrows to remember them that you are ansectors of Greeks and Romans''
If the Byzantine Empire was not "Roman", then by that logic, the Ming Dynasty wasn't "Chinese", the Safavid Dynasty was not "Iranian" and the Soviet Union was not "Russian"
The Eastern Mediterranean was linguistically and culturally Hellenistic/Greek at its core, even during the proper Roman occupation! Apart from the Roman Prefect and his entourage, very few Eastern Mediterraneans spoke Latin or had Latin customs, traditions and practices. And this during the proper Roman occupation of the Eastern Mediterranean. Let alone during the Byzantine period...
@@ThomasGazis So? The Western Roman Empire was extremely continuous with the culture and institutions of the Greek city-states. Hellenistic influence was a very widespread thing in the Mediterrenean, courtesy of Alexander and his Diadochi.
The Eastern Roman Empire had direct legal continuity with the old SPQR either way, the people regarded themselves as “Romaioi”. The differences between East and West are significant, but there is also significant difference between the Qin and Han Dynasties, yet nobody would claim that the Han were “not Chinese”
@@mariomouse8265 modern Greeks are sometimes calling themselves "Romioi". Does this mean that the modern Greeks are Latin Romans? No, they are not at all! The Byzantines were calling themselves "Romioi" too! But they were not Latin Romans at all!
@@ThomasGazis The line between Roman and Greek was extremely thin by that point, but the Eastern Romans were ultimately the same legal continuing entity as the SPQR, and again, the Roman civilization was part of the larger Mediterrenean civilization (Egypt, Carthage, Athens, etc). The language of Latin declined because the Eastern Roman Empire was based in Asia Minor and Egypt, where Greek-speaking populations were dominant, but widespread use of Latin is hardly the only factor required for successorship to Roman identity.
@@mariomouse8265 exactly my point! Byzantium was a mere continuation of the Hellenistic empire! "Romanitas" might have enormously affected less advanced people like the Celts in England but overall had a minimum effect on Byzantium , because it had nothing to add to the already tremendously advanced for that period Hellenistic culture and society!
Short answer: Yes. Even though they didn't control Rome, they were the continuation of the Roman empire that dated back to the days of Augustus.
They controlled Rome from 535 until 751.
The Christian Greek-Byzantines had nothing to do with the Augustus Roman empire!
@@ThomasGazis yes, they had. Byzantines were romans. Byzantine roman and augustus roman were the same political entity.
@@cocodaze8122 suuuuree!!! If you say so, as you are probably serving an anti Greek-Byzantine agenda...
Different language, religion, culture, political structure, geography, capital, architectural identity, art, etc. Byzantines will never be Roman, cope harder lol
They were Romans. Their culture changeed, granted, but they kept up the politics and were formed from the core of the original Roman Empire.
If the US splits in 100 years time, and the part of the US centred on Washington DC falls and the far Western part exists for anoter 1000 years, aren't they Americans?
Well, countries are social constructs. It’s not like there is some divine power that gives you your borders, your name and tells you what is your culture. It’s based on what people decide and what people believe. We don’t really need hypothetical examples. We literally have examples where same people group consider themselves different groups like Germany and Austria and different people groups consider themselves one like any multi ethnic empire becoming nation state.
America being itself is about containing various qualities. It’s amalgamation of liberal west coast, crazy bible belt in the south, rust belt in the north, gun shooting Texans, dissing at crazy Florida, etc. All those various cultures interacting which each other create this American image we see as outsiders. You could probably cut few states without affecting this self image. But if you cut it enough that you lose some of these parts. It’s stops being this entity we recognize as American.
If you cut at this very moment everything outside of Texas and few surrounding states. I would still call them Americans for a while, but generation after generation I would see it more and more just as Texas and not America anymore.
I think at least till Justinian they had pretty strong claim. Having reclaim Rome itself kind of gives you that “the empire” feel since nobody can’t claim succession to Rome if you still own it. Plus people saw themselves as Romans and when I watched documentary about this reclamation, people in those territories reclaimed by Constantinople were friendly towards them and drew on their common Roman identity. So even outside saw them as Romans.
But after that, century after century it was more like that Texas analogy.
NO SILLY they would be Byzantinemerrican empire
@@stafer3 Lmao us texans would call ourselvs americans to the end of time
Why we still call it the “Byzantine” empire is beyond me. In all the history books I’ve read, from middle school to college, they always call it the ERE up until either the fall of the WRE or Justinian’s Wars. Then it becomes the Byzantine empire for some reason.
Probably because after the fall of the WRE the city of Rome was no longer in the Roman Empire, so maybe that's why.
@@danshakuimo Still doesn't make any sense, as the Empire was Roman with Roman citizens and Roman culture. The capital was New Rome, that was Constantine's intention to make another Rome elsewhere. It was a smear campaign of the Catholics who wanted the rights to the Roman Empire.
Turn your eyes to Zion, everyone, and you will learn why the name was changed.
@@danshakuimo rome ceased to be an important city for a long time before the west fell
Because Constantinople was built on the ancient Greek city of Byzantium.
one of our brothers(Ανδρεας) below stated this 'In my opinion Byzantines are Politically Roman and Ethnically Greek'. That's the fact guys. question was answered
Thanks!
@@asr20nl I may add that they were also both greek and roman culturally
exactly!
We call Greeks 'Rum' which means Roman.
My take is that the eastern Roman Empire was always more Greek, as it had been conquered by Alexander the Great and held by his successor states for hundreds of years. And since Greek did well in the Roman Empire, that would not need to change. So that greekness stayed as an undercurrent the whole time, influencing even the split of the Empire into East and West.
By the way, I have always loved the Greek history. I respect the Romans, and must give them their due, but I LOVE the Greek history and culture. I have been learning about Alexander the Great and the Daiodachi, and it is all fascinating. I wonder how life would be different if Alexander hadn't died, and his empire survived. I think the same about if Rome had not fell.
But even so, the West was built by Greek Culture, Roman Steel, and Christianity.
At the time the Romans conquered Greece, the Greek culture in the peninsula was in complete decadence (militarily, politically, culturally, economically) and the achievements of Alexander the Great a long gone almost mythical past. The Roman has aquired a good taste (and admiration) of classical Greek culture through their contacts with Great Greece colonies in Italy and Sicily. In a way they contributed to the reimportation of Greek culture back to Greek soil.
@@CyrilleParis nice!
Well in truth rome started to collapse after adopting Christianity
@@joshuanuciola8070 It was the thesis of Edward Gibbon (18th century). It had its merits at the time but is now seen as such an oversimplifiation that it is almost a preconception.
Actually, one can argue that the adoption of christiannity in 312 opened the 4th century revival... but it also would be an oversimplification.
@@joshuanuciola8070 Rome didn’t fall because they adopted Christianity. There were many factors that contributed to the fall of the Roman Empire not to mention the empire was already in decline long before Christianity was an offical religion in the empire. The barbarians who sacked the capital of Rome were even Christian themselves. Calling Christianity caused the fall of the empire Is like blaming witches and Jews for all Europe’s problems. Your comment is historically inaccurate.
They were actually Romans. They called themselves Romans.
So did literally everyone
@@crimsonthumos3905 they have the government, senate and legal citizenship so anyone living in Rhomania are Roman.
Roman in ancient Greek meant srtong
@@KingMacuilmiquiztli You're obviously 10 years old. Go read a book.
@@crimsonthumos3905 they have more claim to the title Roman’s considering the fact they literally were the Roman Empire. They just weren’t Italian
Excellent analysis!
The Byzantium is greek because the byzantians were speaking Greek
In Turkey still many people call themself Roman or Rum . Most of them has greek ancestory
Dont forget, also many Turkish people have Greek ancestry. Especially in western Turkey. Many Greeks converted to Islam. Or read about janissaries, milions of Greek children taken away from their family to become Turks and fight for Ottoman empire.
@@asr20nl so the turkish are not turks no longer?
@@asr20nl Yes thats true . One of my closest friends fatherside from Macedonia and motherside from Crete. My family mostly caucasian . Dagistan and Georgia.
@@asr20nl but the so called greeks in anatolia werent true greeks they were hellenized anatolians (hittites...)
So sad
The Greeks used to call them selves Romios, Romii (plural) till the Greek War of Independance in 1821. The name of the country Hellas and Hellen (Greek) were introduced at that time by the ruling elite and the intellectuals. The name Romios is still in use in poetry, and some times in colloquial speaking. There is still in use the word romeiko, instead of Greece (Hellas), mostly to refer to the malfunctiosns within the mentality of modern Greeks or the institutions of modern Greece.
greeks are just romans that use hellenic language not latin lool nothing else nothing more, even Caesar used Greek as his language of education and latin as the language of the army and of common folk.
"The secular use of Hellene revived in the 9th century, after paganism had been eclipsed and was no longer a threat to Christianity's dominance. The revival followed the same track as its disappearance. The name had originally declined from a national term in antiquity, to a cultural term in the Hellenistic years, to a religious term in the early Christianyears. With the demise of paganism and the revival of learning in the Byzantine Empire it had regained its cultural meaning, and finally, by the 11th century it had returned to its ancient national form of an "ethnic Greek", synonymous at the time to "Roman".
Accounts from the 11th century onward (from Anna Komnena, Michael Psellos, John III Vatatzes, George Pletho Gemistos and several others) prove that the revival of the term Hellene (as a potential replacement for ethnic terms like Graekos and Romios) did occur. For example, Anna Komnena writes of her contemporaries as Hellenes, but does not use the word as a synonym for a pagan worshipper. Moreover, Anna boasts about her Hellenic classical education, and she speaks as a native Greek and not as an outsider/foreigner who learned Greek.
The refounding of the University of Constantinople in the palaces of Magnaurapromoted an interest in learning, particularly in Greek studies. Patriarch Photius was irritated because "Hellenic studies are preferred over spiritual works". Michael Psellus thought it a compliment when Emperor Romanus III praised him for being raised "in the Hellenic way" and a weakness for Emperor Michael IV for being completely devoid of a Hellenic education,[66] while Anna Comnena claimed that she had "carried the study of Hellenic to the highest pitch".[67] Also, commenting on the orphanage her father founded, she stated that "there could be seen a Latin being trained, and a Scythian studying Hellenic, and a Roman handling Hellenic texts and an illiterate Hellene speaking Hellenic correctly".[68] In this case we reach a point where the Byzantines are Romans on the political level but Hellenic by descent. Eustathius of Thessalonica disambiguates the distinction in his account of the fall of Constantinople in 1204 by referring to the invaders with the generic term "Latins", encompassing all adherents to the Roman Catholic Church, and the "Hellenes" as the dominant population of the empire.[69]
After the fall of Constantinople to the Crusaders, Greek nationalism accentuated. Nicetas Choniates insisted on using the name "Hellenes", stressing the outrages of the "Latins" against the "Hellenes" in the Peloponessus and how the Alfeios Rivermight carry the news to the barbarians in Sicily, the Normans.[70] Nicephorus Blemmydes referred to the Byzantine emperors as Hellenes,[71] and Theodore Alanias wrote in a letter to his brother that "the homeland may have been captured, but Hellas still exists within every wise man".[72]The second Emperor of Nicaea, John III Ducas Vatatzes, wrote in a letter to Pope Gregory IXabout the wisdom that "rains upon the Hellenic nation". He maintained that the transfer of the imperial authority from Rome to Constantinople was national and not geographic, and therefore did not belong to the Latins occupying Constantinople: Constantine's heritage was passed on to the Hellenes, so he argued, and they alone were its inheritors and successors.[73] His son, Theodore II Lascaris, was eager to project the name of the Greeks with true nationalistic zeal. He made it a point that "the Hellenic race looms over all other languages" and that "every kind of philosophy and form of knowledge is a discovery of Hellenes […]. What do you, O Italian, have to display?"[74]
The evolution of the name was slow and did not replace the "Roman" name completely. Nicephorus Gregoras named his historical work Roman History.[75] Emperor John VI Cantacuzenus, a big supporter of Greek education, in his own memoirs always refers to the Byzantines as "Romans",[76] yet, in a letter sent by the sultan of Egypt, Nasser Hassan Ben Mohamed, referred to him as "Emperor of the Hellenes, Bulgars, Sassanians, Vlachs, Russians, Alanians" but not of the "Romans".[77] Over the next century, George Gemistus Plethon pointed out to Constantine Palaeologus that the people he leads are "Hellenes, as their race and language and education testifies",[78] while Laonicus Chalcondyles was a proponent of completely substituting "Roman" terminology for "Greek" terminology.[79] Constantine Palaeologus himself in the end proclaimed Constantinople the "refuge for Christians, hope and delight of all Hellenes".[80] On the other hand, the same Emperor in his final speech before the Empire's demise called upon his audience to rally to the defenses by characteristically referring to them as "descendants of Hellenes and Romans", most possibly as an attempt to combine Greek national sentiment with the Roman tradition of the Byzantine crown and Empire, both highly respected elements in his subjects' psyche at that moment."
@@marcelcostache2504 We were "Ελληνες"... Not Latinos Italians... 😂
sofaki s you are not Latins and you dont have to be you are still a citizen of the Roman Empire regardess of language or ethnicity you are descendent from Roman CItizens just like most mediteranians
@@marcelcostache2504 Ok... Because we were another race... Though we have similarities... Greeks have colonies also in South Italy, that's why we have common dna... They are Hellenes just like us... Not all of course...
Excellent video.
And not to mention Caracalla gave citizenship within those lived within the Roman Empire. And thus eastern romans kept that as well.
The facts are simple:
1. The Romans conquered Greece.
2. The Greeks though, being the only people amongst the conquered that were culturally superior to the Romans, conquered Rome culturally.
ie. famous Roman poet and philosopher Horace in his Epistles, book II, epistle I, line 63, writes:
“Graecia capta ferum victorem capot et arts intuit agrestic Latino”.
(Conquered Greece took captive her savage conqueror and brought her arts into rustic Latium).
3. For that reason, Greek was the only non-Roman language that survived in the Empire. A bilingual Roman Empire, spoke Latin to the west and Greek to the East (all important edicts were issued in both languages, ie. the Diocletian Edict of maximun prices, 301AD).
4. After the decline of Roman society, Constantine the Great, an Illyrian-Greek himself, transferred the capital from an aging Rome to a thriving Byzantion (a Greek settlement, founded a thousand years before, by Greek king Byzas; Byzantion="Built by Byzas" in Greek).
5. Constantine renamed it "Nova Roma" (New Rome in Latin) but the name never stuck. By the time of his death it was known either as Byzantion or Constantinople ("city if Constantin" in Greek).
6. When the western latin-speaking half was lost, the remaining eastern greek-speaking half took control.
7. By then, the Greeks were divided in two fractions: Pagan Greeks who mantained the traditional name of Hellenes (standard name for the Greeks) and Christian Greeks who went by the name Romioi (=Romans in Greek). The last Hellenes were subdued around the 10th century AD on the mountains west of Sparta. The name "Hellenes" itself was banned by law.
8. After that, all Greeks were known as Romioi. Foreigners, though, call them " Greeks". Later on, however (after 12th century AD) the name Hellenes begun to gain ground again. Today, Greeks are identifying themselves as "Hellenes" even though older generations may identify as Romioi. Unofficially, central Greece is called sometimes "Rumelia" (=land of the Romans). No Romans live there though.
9. The Germans are not Romans either, although they run a state for ~1000 years, that was called "Holy ROMAN Empire".
10. Inhabitans of Romania are not Romans too.
11. To solve the misuderstanding that the Romioi could be taken as Romans, from 1557 and on, modern historiography labels the Eastern Empire as Byzantine Empire (capital Byzantion/Constantinople) to distinguish it from the ancient Roman Empire (capital Rome).
So simple as this!
Well, most of the Inhabitants of modern-day Romania speak a romance language and we call ourselves "români" in our own language (derived from lat. romanus), so I wouldn't say we aren't Romans.
Greek wasn’t the only non roman language that survived in the eastern empire. Albanian language also survived
Yes, romans survine in Thessaloniki mountains as aromâni
do you have any arguments for point no 11 ?
because roumanian language is 80 % LATIN - as latin as the itallian language itself , and much more latin then spanish, french or portughese .
And ppl there have a lot of places with roman names. And a lot of their kids names are latin- very rare in other countries - Flavia, Livia, Octavia , Cezar, Tiberiu , Domitian , Carmen...
And a lot of roumanians look like the italians...
@@le3233 I don't think so. Albanian is a far far newer language. During the roman conquest of Greece (3rd century BC to 1st century BC) Albanian didn't exist at all; and the same goes for Albanians.
The enemy of Eastern Romans, Arabs, called them as Rūm. Even in Quran, there is a chapter dedicated to them called Surah Ar-Rūm (The Romans).
Until these days, Arabs called Greek Orthodox in Antioch and Jerusalem as "Rūm Urthuduksiy", Roman Orthodoxy.
@Benjamin Franklin well i agree with you about eastern roman, but i just share what the Arabs and Quran said about them. What i share matters bcs these two have acknowledged them as "Romans" whatever the situation was.
"As heirs to the Greeks and Romans of old, the Byzantines thought of themselves as Rhomaioi, or Romans, though THEY KNEW FULL WELL that they were ETHNICALLY GREEKS."
(see also: Savvides & Hendricks 2001).Niehoff 2012, Margalit Finkelberg, "Canonising and Decanonising Homer: Reception of the Homeric Poems in Antiquity and Modernity", p. 20 or Pontificium Institutum Orientalium Studiorum 2003, p. 482:
"With the collapse of the empire in the west, its eastern counterpart became, in reality, an entirely new and independent state, at once Greek by language and Roman in name: 'A Greek Roman empire'."
Roderick Beaton, "The Greeks: a global history", New York: Basic books 2021, pp. 212
Thanks for the informative video! My Dad Greek, Mom Italian. The Greco-Roman culture; a fusion of the two. Suscribed to your channel. Oompah!
Great video. I dont think they can be differentiated well. The argument that makes the most sense the "greekness" of east rome has some flaws. Firstly the eastern half was always predominantly greek speaking from pompeii to constantine xiv. Secondly, the "true" Romans were very hellenic in culture. Greek was their second languange. Their government, their religion, their architecture, their leisure and their entertainment were all similar. So if they are two seperate entities we need a date. Was it when rome's (when united) capital was in the greek speaking constantinople in 325? That would mean the united empire was a greek one when clearly they were roman. Was it when the greek east was effectively independent after constantine. If so Marc antony ruled the byzantine empire. Was it when the first greek emporor heraclius ruled? Well everyone since Arcadia ruled over mostly greek speaking people. Just cuz the ruler spoke a different languange cant totally change that. The mughal court spoke persian but surely they were more turkic or indian than persian. Since all of these points of differentiation happened at different times it is a gradual change with no obvious split. A civilization who lasts more than 2,000 years is entitled to some gradual changes.
@@user-ch4rr8zk2j exactly, if we are both correct in saying rome before the split was already partly hellenic than using that to distinguish rome from east rome makes no sense.
Great work
To this day my grandfather who came from Constantinople and also all of my extended family that still lives there call themselves Romioi (Romans) and they insist on the term. In modern Greece, the term Romiosini (Romanness) is still in use and almost synonymous with Greekness although it is sadly fading recently.
It can be abit comfusing even today. For example what the rest of the world know as "Greece'' actually is called Hellas from its people and they call themselves Hellenes instead of Greeks. Greeks or Graecoi was a hellenic group originally from Boeotia that immigrated in Italy about the 8th century bc. The Romans thereafter named all the hellenic groups after the one they first encountered.
Rome conquered Greece militarily but culturaly happened the exact opposite. Not only the mainland of Greece but what was the hellenistic successor kingdoms remained culturally Greek. Or more acurately.. Hellenic. Greek or hellenica was the ''lingua franca'' of the eastern mediterranea and the middle east. The people even the recruited legions from those areas, basically were cultyrally greek even if ethnically were not. Remember Mel Gibson's Passion of Christ? Yeah, strike those latin in reality all of these people talk greek (hellenica). The roman upper class talk greek to each other in the same manner the nobility of 19th century europe talked french. The roman officials that had to deal with the locals, also talked greek. Most probably the only people really using mainly latin would be low class soldiers from western europe and italy. So the east actually was always greek in essence. What was roman was the structure of the state and till the time of Justinian, the law. Ethnically many of those people were Greeks(Hellenes), culturaly ALL of them were Greek.
After the adoption of christianity the ethnic term ''Hellenas'' (Greek) became a synonym of the believer in the old gods. Pagan. So all the god fearing people stopped calling themselves Hellenes (Greeks) and adopted the name of their civic identity. Romans. They continued to call themselves Romans until the first dawn of rennaisance. Which actually started in the eastern roman empire. Not only because of the restriction of the empire to greek mainland, but also because of new currents of philosophers and academics that slowly tried to destigmatize ancient greek values and philosophy, people started to connect once again with their hellenic past. You can see that in many sources.
One of the latest but very interesting imo is Thomas of Argos, a captain of a mercenary band of stradioti who marched with king Henry VIII against scotland in 1545 and the french in1546. In his speach before the siege of Boulogne where his men were outnumbered by the french he said:
“Comrades, as you see we are in the extreme parts of the world, under the service of a King and a nation in the farthest north. And nothing we brought here from our country other than our courage and bravery. Thus, bravely we stand against our enemies, because their numbers cannot match our virtue. We are children of the Hellenes and we are not afraid of the barbarian horde. …. Therefore, courageous and orderly let us march to the enemy, … and let us prove with our action the famous since olden times virtue of the Hellenes .“
The battle ended in favour of the greek mercenaries that made short work of the french and the king commended their bravery. (By the way why is THAT not a movie)
if you read this far, you won a souvlaki lol
About Thomas of Argos...WOW!!! Can you give me some sources of yours ? I'm really interested about 15th-17th centuries Greeks...
Also..i want my souvlaki with kaftero, as we Greeks of Macedonia(I mean -the original, ancient one, inside Greece- Macedonia) call it.
Depends. What meat is the souvlaki? I prefer chicken over pork but pork is also fine.
@@CaptainHarlock-kv4zt Can you explain this to me?
www.britannica.com/biography/Alexander-I-king-of-Macedonia
@@donedeal725 "Macedon was an Ancient GREEK polity. THE MACEDONIANS WERE A GREEK TRIBE. HISTORIOGRAPHY AND SCHOLARSHIP AGREE that Alexander the Great WAS GREEK."
Hornblower 2008, pp. 55-58; Errington 1990, pp. 3-4; Fine 1983, pp. 607-08; Hall 2000, p. 64; Hammond 2001, p. 11; Jones 2001, p. 21; Osborne 2004, p. 127; Hammond 1989, pp. 12-13; Hammond 1993, p. 97; Starr 1991, pp. 260, 367; Toynbee 1981, p. 67; Worthington 2008, pp. 8, 219; Cawkwell 1978, p. 22; Perlman 1973, p. 78; Hamilton 1974, Chapter 2: The Macedonian Homeland, p. 23; Bryant 1996, p. 306; O'Brien 1994, p. 25.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#cite_note-Macedonians-282
"Not much need to be said about the Greekness of ancient Macedonia: it is undeniable."
Ian Worthington, "Philip II of Macedon", Yale University, 2008
"The latest archaeological findings HAVE CONFIRMED that Macedonia took its name from a tribe of tall, GREEK-speaking people, the MAKEDNOI".
Nigel Guy Wilson, Encyclopedia of Ancient Greece, Routledge, 2009, p.439:
"The ANCIENT MACEDONIANS WERE GREEKS.THEIR LANGUAGE WAS GREEK to judge by their personal names, and by the names of the months of their calendar."
George Cawkwell, Emeritus Fellow,University College Oxford
"The Macedonians were a GREEK RACE and akin to the Dorians"
[Ulrich Wilcken]
"Greeks and Macedonians were AKIN IN BLOOD and culture"
[N G L Hammond]
Fire of Learning: We're the Byzantines Roman or Greek?
Me: Well no... but actually yes...
byzantines byzantium byzantine dont exist they are only Romans, Roman. byzantine empire= Roman empire. from 212 every free citizen was roman not only romans.
shut up roman fanboy
@@shawnv123 ura
They instantly changed from being Greek to being Romans and at that time enthusiastically embraced the title. If not for the PAX ROMANA of 212 AD, they would have remained Greeks.
yes because they werent united and the local identity athenian, macedonian etc was stronger .
Precise, I support your view on the matter. Thumbs up.
Greek is literally an ethnic identity. Roman is a nationality. So the late empire could be ethnically greek but still roman. This isnt that confusing. Before anyone tells me nationality did not exist at this time. I point to Roman citizenship. First they gave it to other Italic peoples and then later during the empire they gave it to non Italic peoples like the Gauls, Iberians, Africans and yes the Greeks.
The citizens of the eastern Roman Empire were in the majority Greek (Hellenes). There were big ethnic groups like Armenians, Illyrians and Assyrians and after 600 ad Slavs. But the Greeks were the majority, that’s why Greek got the standard language of the empire with the time. The term (Hellene) was bond with the Ancient Greek polytheistic religion. Any Greek who wanted to show that he is Christian had to call himself Roman (because Christianity was the main religion of the eastern Roman Empire). So all Greeks that were Christians called themselves Roman. The Latins always knew this and called the eastern romans as Greeks. I’m Greek and my ancestors came from Asia Minor and called themselves Roman but if you asked who their ancestors were they told you Homer, Aristotle, Leonidas etc.
The knew that they were Hellenes.
the remnants of Greeks which still remain in Black sea coasts after the treaty of Lausane -30 Jαn 1923- they speak a language closier to Ancient Greek Language but they calling Roman.Greeks adopted the Political term roman.The eastern greeks still today called Romioi.Orthooxy is the first evidence, is the wall who separate the latins and westerns from Greeks and Easterns in simple way.
No. The majority were not 'greek' until the last few centuries when it shrunk to very small territory. It was polygot, in true Roman fashion. Greek language was the lingua franca, but not the majority spoke language until after Justinian.
"Dionysius states his objective outright (Ant. Rom. 1.5.1): “I engage to show that THEY [THE ROMANS] ARE GREEKS”."
I just found a comment you made on a death grips video, nice taste in music I must say
What confuses most of the people is that in our region there always was a differentiation between ethnicity, culture and citizenship. The ''byzantines'' were Roman citizens , under the ruling of the Roman Emperor for a thousand years, therefore Romans. But their dominant culture , language, art, their entire civilisation was always Greek, long before Romans even existed and it it remained like that for all the cοurse of their history until today. Their ethnicity , was mainly Greek in Asia minor and the Greek mainland, and any other ( Slavs , Armenians, Arabs etc ) depending of the borders of the Empire at a time . From the 11 c. AD , as the empire was shrinking in territories , the population left in the ''empire'', was mainly Greeks again and some Slavs and Armenians.
So , to summarise, until the 11th c. , the Eastern Roman Empire was a multy ethnical empire , with Roman Law, Christian Orthodox faith , and Greek dominant language , culture and civilisation and after the 11th c. AD , the main ethnicity left in their few territories left was Greek , therefore a Greek Kingdom in decline.
And btw the Romans of Rome (catholics )and the Romans of Konstantinople (orthodox ) , really heated each other and they both used the terms ''Latino'' and '' Greco'' with mutual contempt .
So , can someone say that the Eastern Roman Empire was Greek? Well, in it's deepest sense, yes. ''Rome'' was the ''brandname'' but the vast majority of the critical ''spare parts'' within (language, art, education, perception of the world, scriptures , beliefs , and the dominant genome as well ) where always Greek. Can anyone say that it was not ''Roman'' ,? No , not by any sense. The brandname was unchanged , the Emperor and the laws and the name that the citizens used for all that and for themselves was ''Romans''.
Another thing that makes it all that very confusing is ,among other things, is the language borders . In English both Romans of Rome and Constantinople are called ''Romans''. In Greek to differentiate that, the LatinoRomans are called ''Romaioi'' ( or just Latinos ) and the GrekoRomans are called ''Romioi.'
In the ethnic cleansing of Turkey back in the 1920's the few survivors (1,5 mill. from the 12 mill. that they used to be back in the 15th c . ) that where forced to migrate to Greece used the term Romioi , to differentiate themselves from the Greeks of the mainland. So today, those that we are the descendants of those people , when we are asked by a foreigner what our origin is , we will naturally answer '' Greek ' to avoid any confuse' . But if a Greek ask as , we will say ''Romioi'' , meaning , the indigenous Greeks of Asia Minor (Ionians and Aeolians ) and the hellenized populations of that area, who lived for a thousand years as Roman Citizens , then as Ottoman slaves, and expelled for the last century from our Motherland.
"The Byzantine empire was CLEARLY, despite its multinational dimension, A GREEK EMPIRE while its neighbors considered it so, and whose unity was based on the power of authority, in the dominance of Orthodoxy and the use of Greek as the official language."
Sylvain Gouguenheim, "La gloire des Grecs", 2017, pp..72, 73
Great vidio very entertaining and educational