I agree with you. People of the past were people too. In 500 years I hope people have compasion for us and what we are going through now.@@auntyvenom133
Mary wanted to believe that Anne was a wanton. She would have liked to believe that Elizabeth had no royal blood but it was pretty obvious that Elizabeth was Henry Tudor's daughter. It is possible, but unlikely, that Mark Smeaton was Anne's lover after Elizabeth's birth. Mark Smeaton was the equivalent of a sixteenth century Brad Pitt. She liked to believe that she was irresistable to men. She would have considered it a mark of pride to have the ladies think she was the "crush" of the most physically attractive man at court. Mark lived above his means because women other than Anne gave him presents . Feeling slighted by Henry's interest in Jane Seymour, Anne may have flirted with Mark Smeaton to show Henry that handsome men were attracted to her. Because Henry fancied himself a musician, Anne might have been trying to make Henry jealous by flirting with Mark.
Poor Smeaton was tortured to confess. I agree with you Anne that he was promised a quick death rather than the horrors of a full traitors death. Even when up on the scaffold, he would be to scared to confess he lied as they would whip him off for a traitors death. Poor Anne never stood a chance. Henry wanted out of the marriage and Cromwell concocted the story about Anne having lovers to make it so. All those innocent men executed, including her brother, is a stain on Henry.
Yes as he always did. He wanted Anne gone, got Cromwell to do this. He made up all the lies about Anne, as he knew she was gunning for him. So to make sure she died, he dragged all those.men into it. Even said she wanted the King dead. Cromwell was to follow them to the block. Karma.
I agree. What a terrible time Mark Smeaton appears to have had. Like Anne, George and the other men unjustly put to death, May 1536 really was the month from hell. They must have all been utterly devastated by the horrendous circumstances in which they found themselves. How awful to be in their shoes, totally powerless and unable to help yourself 💔😢
Agreed Claire 👏 Smeaton couldn't have been father to any of Anne's offspring least of all Elizabeth. It's also hard to believe anyone would think Elizabeth be daughter of Smeaton. So many remarked on how much Elizabeth was like her father Henry. He couldn't deny her and didn't. Elizabeth was her father's daughter true and true as well as her mother's daughter. If Mary had made any slanderous utterance regarding Elizabeth's paternity, it would've been out of anger and bitterness rather than any serious doubt or questioning. Mary did love her sister who she helped look after since Elizabeth was a baby and watched her grow. Those tender moments were there. Mary could've had Elizabeth executed if she had really wanted to but she didn't and wouldn't have. Mary didn't even want to execute Jane Grey until her hand was forced. Had Mary held any doubt regarding Elizabeth's paternity or had any real hatred for her sister then she wouldn't have had Elizabeth anywhere near her or her reign and surely would not have named Elizabeth as her successor. Thank you Claire 😊
I completely agree with you, Claire-and you've certainly done the research over the years regarding Anne Boleyn and her daughter Elizabeth, whom I absolutely believe is "the lion's cub". Thanks for another fascinating video about "Tudor scandal"--it's such a pleasure to see you again on a regular basis.
Elizabeth was a female version of Henry 8. Under the best of circumstances I don’t believe Anne ever cheated. As you pointed out before about all the people around her etc..
I agree with you Claire! I don't for one millisecond believe that Mark Smeaton was Elizabeth's father, nor the baby Anne lost in 1536. It was all too convenient that he confessed. If only we had a time machine!
You would probably say anything to stop being tortured and to spare your family members who obviously would be threatened as well. I imagine smeaton was not of noble status and able to be tortured. I do not know. As far as Anne's brother or the others being implicated was enough to end their lives. Political intrigues are always fascinating. The way Mary Boylene my ancestor became a mistress and then was shamed for marrying for love later. The way Anne became a queen and the necessary steps to discredit her and remove her are all weird. The way Henry removed some of his wives. The way some of Jane Seymour's brothers tried to take advantage of the young king their nephew. It's like hearing about the Kim's in North Korea. So bizarre! I love that you calculated her menstruation and fertility! It really debunks the theory! Good work! All I can say is that Sir John Cheke skillfully avoided implications in the coup attempt of Lady Jane Grey. Skillfully avoided implication of Seymour attempting to manipulate the young King. But crumbled under the pressure of Queen Mary to Convert to Catholicism. It was a court of very conflicting and divisive loyalties. Full of intrigue and manipulation as well as mind control. People were so disposable! Even Queen Mary was conflicted in her loyalties to Cheke and her siblings. It was a pit of vipers where everyone including the Kings and Queens were constantly being manipulated and gas lighted. And they did the same to everyone else. Can you imagine living in a time when lack of fertility could bring death? When your sibling or cousin was your greatest frenemy? When your cousins were family maybe close, but you had to be suspicious? It's like sibling rivalry on over drive! Fascinating but insane!
I dont think that Ann would have been unfaithful to Henry as I feel she truly loved him. I am curious about the child she lost in 1536? What would have happened to the child she lost after the miscarriage. Would the child have been buried, or was that a thing in those days. In regards to Elizabeth I being fathered by anyone other than Henry, I find that impossible. In the pictures I have seen, she bears a pronounced resemblance not only to Henry VIII, but his father, Henry VIII as well.
Thanks so much for this video! I have always thought that Mark Smeaton confessed to having a sexual relationship with Anne to avoid the horror of the usual traitor’s death. Going after Mark Smeaton first was Cromwell’s deliberate strategy. Once the confession was obtained from him, the idea of Anne’s guilt would have been considered established, as would be the probable guilt of the other men, no matter what they said.
Very interesting....I just wouldn't doubt that Henry is Elizabeth's father....she looks so much like him to me. I don't think she had relations with Mark at all and I do hope they find contemporary proof of this whole horrid event.
We don't know whether he WAS tortured, it might have been more psychological pressure or a kind of plea bargain. He certainly bore no signs of torture at his execution.
I read elsewhere that Mark Sweaton was tortured in the Tower after being arrested. If it was severe enough, he probably would’ve confessed to anything just to make the pain stop.
Clifford was not an unbiased source, given his connections with Dormer and Queen Mary. I think his word should have been taken with great big lumps of salt by Weir and Farquahar and any later historians. Analysis of sources is so important. Thanks again for a great talk, Claire, and to Rose for a great question. ❤
A virginal instrument sounds like a harpsichord and the player needs both hands to make the correct notes. Anne, it seems was trying to say Marks hands were on the harpsichord and not on her. Also, that Anne knew sounds did carry upwards into the king's bedroom where the King would have heard the music. Anne is implying the King and any of his guests there would have heard the sounds though the uninsulated and not soundproof floor above. Surly, the King would have hated being used as an alibi for both Anne and Mark. Well, no matter what Anne might say to save herself, her husband was not hearing any claims from her.
I think Elizabeth 1st looks too much like her grandfather Henry 7th and his mother Margaret Beaufort to have doubts cast on her paternity. I realise Tudor artists had a 'style' but there is a very real likeness between the three.
Wow Elizabeth had her mother’s eyes. I love your channel, so wish you were around in the 80’s, back then I watched Anne of the Thousand Days a zillion times and had Massachusetts yearly Renaissance Faire . You always have a new way of seeing the Tudors! ❤ From the states and thankyou
Henry was Elizabeth’s father. Anne B may have acted rashly at times, but she was very intelligent. Anne B would not have been that dumb to cheat on Henry. Any confession obtained during torture should not be believed. And any confession obtained from threat of torture is suspect too. I love your channel! I enjoy all you discuss and have the history to prove your points and any topic. Thank you so much!
I really feel for Smeaton, and I can only imagine the fear he must've felt facing his death, his maker, in such a religious world with a lie against the queen on his lips. RIP to them all, awful.
Why did Smeaton say "Masters, I pray you all pray for me, for I have deserved the death". or Wyatt write Ah! Mark, what moan should I for thee make more, *Since that thy death thou hast deserved best* Save only that mine eye is forced sore With piteous plaint to moan thee with the rest? A time thou hadst above thy poor degree, The fall whereof thy friends may well bemoan: A rotten twig upon so high a tree Hath slipped thy hold, and thou art dead and gone. I understand your works are financially based on praising Anne Boleyn, though she was much different in the eyes of all that knew here during her lifetime. It would be a boon to history if she was portrayed in full personality. We know women in all states even Queens had affairs. Not saying Smeaton was the father but Anne could've gad affairs.
Mark Smeaton had borne false witness against Anne. That made him a rotten twig! None - ZERO - of the other men made any such accusation. Wyatt was as likely as anyone, aside from Anne or Smeaton, to know that Mark Smeaton died forsworn, because he was a high-level courtier. If you want to accuse anyone of having a chance at being Anne’s physical lover, you can choose between Harry Percy or Wyatt himself, before she yielded herself to Henry.
I think Mark Seaton did Not father Elizabeth 1 - Queen Anne Boleyn and Kind Henry V111 were of course desperate to produce an heir but there was no privacy in the Court, think how a few years later fifth wife/Katherine Howard had to have her lady in waiting Jane Rockford to help her meet her admirer in the privy - and other ladies in waiting were all questioned and poor Katherine had the axe! Anne Boleyn had the sword which was lenient for Henry V111 - I think if he truly believed Anne guilty she would have had the axe as Katherine sadly did
How fascinating! Thank you for such a a wealth of information told with great clarity. I am less than a neophyte to this time of history. (And I'm American, with only one grandparent British.) But I must say that my ears picked up upon hearing that the commoner musician was entertained by the doomed Queen IN HER CHAMBERS. I'm 72, and when we were girls (now called tweenagers) we were taught that if a woman invited a man into her apartment, and the couple were alone, the man had every reason to believe that woman was signalling she wanted sex with him. Such niceties have fallen by the wayside in this era of "friends with benefits." But weren't morals strict in the 16th Century? Or was Merry Ole England really that merry?! Again, thank you for your fascinating presentation! Godspeed to thee and thine! 🌹
Henry covered all his bases. Even the man that Anne was once in love with, and planning to marry, Henry Percy was forced to testify against her in court. He fainted when he heard the sentence and charges against her, and had to be carried out of the courtroom.
Alison Weir can be a little biased with her opinions and beliefs as evident in her Six Tudor Queens historical fiction series 📚 Alison is very much pro Catherine of Aragon and Mary so in turn is not the biggest Anne Boleyn fan and it shows. Being a fan of one doesn't mean you need to be against the other. It's not about taking sides, there aren't any sides.
Yes, Weir has often spoken of her admiration of Catherine of Aragon and doesn't have much time for Anne, but she is quoting from a 16th century source here.
I read your article at your website but the links you have to the original article by Brian M. Collins do not work. Tried searching at the Winchester Cathedral website but no luck. Of course it's been 13 years and the 404 error page says they have reorganized the website. Of course I have every confidence your 2016 article summarizes the details sufficiently! So I have only done a cursory search for his article online, not found yet. I think your theory about Smeaton's confession as part of a plea deal for a less gruesome death makes sense.
In my honest opinion, I think Henry not questioning Elizabeth's paternity is proof that he did not believe Anne was guilty. It is highly suspicious to me that all of the accusations are conveniently after Elizabeth's birth and in between her miscarriages, almost like he is saying something he knows there will be no proof to contradict.
What really irritates me is that Henry could have as many mistresses as he liked. Yet a wife would be essentially a traitor if she stepped outside the exclusivity of marriage. This continued well into the modern age. In many cultures! Thank God we live in modern times. What a double standard? You have Alexandra. You have Wallis Simpson. You have Diana. James I. William Rufus. Richard the Lion Heart. What do you do with non-conventional kings,Queens and consort?
The reason was that a man can't get pregnant and bear a child who isn't the spouse's. Before DNA testing, there was no way of knowing if the queen was bearing the king's child or not except to ensure her fidelity.
Have you come across any information stating or hinting that Henry Norreys' and Anne Boleyn were actually having an affair? I am descended from Henry. I read an article last year saying that there is evidence or something to that effect, that proves that they were friends but not lovers. Have you seen anything to that effect as well?
Elizabeth was conceived October or November 1532. In France far from England and Mark Smeaton. Who didn’t arrive in Anne’s household until 1533. Instead of blathering about what people thought or would could should
Hiya Claire, I think this is a fix up, between Anne Boleyn and Mark Smeaton, I think its was a set up so Cromwell could get his own way, thats all I have to say about it, this is Paul In Whitehaven, Cumbria, England
I am rather bemused by various individuals condemning Smeaton for claiming after undue pressure, ( A nice euphemistic way to describe what was probably torture.), that he committed adultery with Anne and not withdrawing the accusation at his execution. Well they weren't the ones being tortured and I have little doubt that Smeaton damn well knew if he retracted at the execution the full rigor of a traitor's death would then be inflicted on him. Smeaton wasn't a hero from a dime novel and the people complaining about his lack of heroism weren't the ones "pressured". I cut him a lot of slack.
Mama's baby...Papa's maybe? 🤔 Seriously...I believe Elizabeth was the daughter of H8. At the time of conception...Anne was hopefull for a boy and was in Henry's good grace. She would not have stumbled at that time. Elizabeth had Red hair and pale skin like H8.
Likely not as he was just a musician not a nobleman. Also even more less likely when there are no surviving portraits of Anne Boleyn and those noblemen accused and executed such as George Boleyn. The portraits purported to be of Anne Boleyn we are familiar with today are later works. The only certain likeness of Anne from her time is that battered silver coin.
@@UtahGmaw99 I can agree with that. But I also think she was perfectly willing to do "a thing", but be quite upset later when the Exact same thing was done to her. To be fair though, that isn't an uncommon human trait.
@@avalonkerr8332I don't think Anne is considered a saint. She was a human with flaws like us all. But she wasn't a villain either. Sure she may have said, thought or did bad things but wasn't an all out villain. And looking at the flimsy evidence and charges against her, Anne was likely innocent and undeserving of her fate.
I was only referring to the current "cult of Anne B" who tend to see her as a saint; certainly there are many varying opinions among us history nerds :)
I don’t believe in the accusations against Anne either, nor do I doubt that Mary believed this odd rumor that Elizabeth wasn’t fathered by the King. She certainly did not care for her due to her mother suffering as she did in the Great Matter fiasco, but if she had the slightest bit of doubt she had her pick of nobles to appoint as the next King of England and to no doubt ensure he was a Catholic as well to further her ambitions to restore England to the faith after her death.
I kind of wonder if Henry hated Marc Smeaton because he was more talented and handsome than Henry. Norris and some of the other men were better jousters and had sons, which Henry could not have. Pope Clement was low born in Henry's opinion. The medici were bankers. Jealousy is typical of narcissism. Mary 1 was not ugly. She was pretty and looked like Elizabeth of York.
I dont think Mark Smeaton fathered Elizabeth either. For one, Elizabeth had Henry's red hair and facial features. But I am wondering Mark got his punishment upgraded from drawn and quartered to head chopping just by claiming to have had sex with Anne.
Did Mark Smeaton receive a full traitor's death? I wouldn't trust whoever made the deal with him (if there was a deal & I agree with you, that was probably the case) to follow through.
He was beheaded, thankfully, but I expect that he went to his death without retracting his confession because he feared being hanged, drawn and quartered.
@anneboleynfiles I wonder if anyone at the time speculated at his "merciful" death. That was unusual for his rank, correct? Francis Dearum didn't fair as well, did he?
I've always thought that Elizabeth bore the face and countenance of Margaret Beaufort, her great grandmother, especially later in Elizabeth's life - also I doubt very much that Anne would have risked her position by committing adultery.
@@anneboleynfiles I'd forgotten about Henry VII, but yes - she has his air of parsimony (not sure if she was actually like that of course!) I find it surprising that even today there are those willing to cast aspersions on Anne; I think it's sad.
Checking the cycle is important. And I'm no historian (I'm a retired English teacher). But I must add that the cycle isn't always regular. It can be early. It can be late. A child can even be conceived while a woman is having her period. So it's good to keep in mind that checking the cycle isn't scientific proof. But it does have value nonetheless. 🌹
It's hard nowadays to think that anyone accused of so many crimes, like Anne Boleyn, was innocent of all of them. However in this case I think it's fairly safe to say that all of Anne's crimes were likely false or at best extremely exaggerated. She simply had many political enemies and Henri was tired of her and desperate for a son. Honestly though, whatever the case, I don't think Mary ever seriously considered whether or not Henri was Elizabeth's father as well, given their similarities, particularly the red hair, which is a recessive gene. Now granted, they wouldn't have known that last bit in Tudor times, but they probably did notice it wasn't a very common trade.
I think nowadays, with our justice system, we'd think that she must have done something, but not with Tudor justice. As Eric Ives pointed out, three quarters of the dates in the indictments just didn't make sense - Anne was not even at the palace named or she was in confinement after childbirth. They weren't even careful in drawing up the indictments, they knew they didn't need to be with the jury they had chosen.
Mary and Elizabeth's relationship was rocky at times but they loved each other. Elizabeth just like Mary and Edward and their father had their grandmother, Lady Margaret Beaufort eyes. If Mary believed anyone else was Elizabeth's father she would have gotten on the rooftop of Westminster Abbey and started screaming it. People just like to make things up for attention.
I think Elizabeth's eye colour was from Anne, but there are definite similarities when you compare her portraits to those of Henry VII and Margaret Beaufort.
@@anneboleynfiles you're correct. Elizabeth most likely had her mother's eye color (as you stated) and her father and paternal grandmother's hooded eye shape.
I'm guessing you didn't watch my video as I explain I'm answering Rose's question. I've been answering subscribers' questions on Tudor history. I also share what it's based on, which is words that Mary I allegedly spoke, recorded by Henry Clifford who was part of the household of Jane Dormer, who had served Mary I. It's not a conspiracy theory.
I feel terrible for Mark Smeaton--he was used as a legal pawn by Cromwell in the conspiracy to get rid of poor Anne B.
Yes!
Why state the obvious. You feel”terrible”? Poor man’s been dead over 500 years! Far worse things to feel “terrible” about now.
@@user-ev4ie2wx7k but they're not exclusive, are they? We can feel terrible about both.
@@user-ev4ie2wx7kIt’s called “empathy “ & “compassion.” Doesn’t matter if someone has been dead for 500 years or 5 minutes, we can still feel for them
I agree with you. People of the past were people too. In 500 years I hope people have compasion for us and what we are going through now.@@auntyvenom133
I don't think Mary really thought that Mark Smeaton was Elizabeth's father! How ridiculous 🙄 Thanks Claire❤😊
Mary just didn’t want to have Elizabeth for a half-sister or acknowledge her. Saying Elizabeth was Smeaton’s daughter suited that purpose.
What would Nursey off Blackadder think of it, only joking
Mary wanted to believe that Anne was a wanton. She would have liked to believe that Elizabeth had no royal blood but it was pretty obvious that Elizabeth was Henry Tudor's daughter. It is possible, but unlikely, that Mark Smeaton was Anne's lover after Elizabeth's birth. Mark Smeaton was the equivalent of a sixteenth century Brad Pitt. She liked to believe that she was irresistable to men. She would have considered it a mark of pride to have the ladies think she was the "crush" of the most physically attractive man at court. Mark lived above his means because women other than Anne gave him presents . Feeling slighted by Henry's interest in Jane Seymour, Anne may have flirted with Mark Smeaton to show Henry that handsome men were attracted to her. Because Henry fancied himself a musician, Anne might have been trying to make Henry jealous by flirting with Mark.
I totally agree with you! I believe that in 1535 and 1536 that Ann still loved Henry and would therefore not have slept with anyone other than Henry!
I always find confessions suspect since torture was generally used. It really adds doubts.
Exactly!
Poor Smeaton was tortured to confess. I agree with you Anne that he was promised a quick death rather than the horrors of a full traitors death. Even when up on the scaffold, he would be to scared to confess he lied as they would whip him off for a traitors death. Poor Anne never stood a chance. Henry wanted out of the marriage and Cromwell concocted the story about Anne having lovers to make it so. All those innocent men executed, including her brother, is a stain on Henry.
A few years later Henry turned on Cromwell.
Yes as he always did. He wanted Anne gone, got Cromwell to do this. He made up all the lies about Anne, as he knew she was gunning for him. So to make sure she died, he dragged all those.men into it. Even said she wanted the King dead. Cromwell was to follow them to the block. Karma.
I agree. What a terrible time Mark Smeaton appears to have had. Like Anne, George and the other men unjustly put to death, May 1536 really was the month from hell. They must have all been utterly devastated by the horrendous circumstances in which they found themselves. How awful to be in their shoes, totally powerless and unable to help yourself 💔😢
It was something that rocked the whole court and that shocked Europe too. Awful.
Agreed Claire 👏
Smeaton couldn't have been father to any of Anne's offspring least of all Elizabeth. It's also hard to believe anyone would think Elizabeth be daughter of Smeaton. So many remarked on how much Elizabeth was like her father Henry. He couldn't deny her and didn't. Elizabeth was her father's daughter true and true as well as her mother's daughter.
If Mary had made any slanderous utterance regarding Elizabeth's paternity, it would've been out of anger and bitterness rather than any serious doubt or questioning.
Mary did love her sister who she helped look after since Elizabeth was a baby and watched her grow. Those tender moments were there. Mary could've had Elizabeth executed if she had really wanted to but she didn't and wouldn't have. Mary didn't even want to execute Jane Grey until her hand was forced. Had Mary held any doubt regarding Elizabeth's paternity or had any real hatred for her sister then she wouldn't have had Elizabeth anywhere near her or her reign and surely would not have named Elizabeth as her successor.
Thank you Claire 😊
I completely agree with you, Claire-and you've certainly done the research over the years regarding Anne Boleyn and her daughter Elizabeth, whom I absolutely believe is "the lion's cub". Thanks for another fascinating video about "Tudor scandal"--it's such a pleasure to see you again on a regular basis.
Thank you so much!
I absolutely agree with you. Although I usually do. I personally think Anne was a victim of false accusations 100% and still is to this day
I think Elizabeth being born with red hair made Henry not deny her as his child.
Not only the hair color, but the family resemblance. She looked just like Henry.
I absolutely love your channel! From childhood I’ve always been a “Tudor geek”. Your videos are amazing! Keep them coming xx
Thank you, that's so kind of you to say!
Elizabeth was a female version of Henry 8.
Under the best of circumstances I don’t believe Anne ever cheated. As you pointed out before about all the people around her etc..
Exactly! It would have been near impossible for her to cheat, she was never alone
I agree with you Claire! I don't for one millisecond believe that Mark Smeaton was Elizabeth's father, nor the baby Anne lost in 1536. It was all too convenient that he confessed. If only we had a time machine!
You would probably say anything to stop being tortured and to spare your family members who obviously would be threatened as well. I imagine smeaton was not of noble status and able to be tortured. I do not know. As far as Anne's brother or the others being implicated was enough to end their lives. Political intrigues are always fascinating. The way Mary Boylene my ancestor became a mistress and then was shamed for marrying for love later. The way Anne became a queen and the necessary steps to discredit her and remove her are all weird. The way Henry removed some of his wives. The way some of Jane Seymour's brothers tried to take advantage of the young king their nephew. It's like hearing about the Kim's in North Korea. So bizarre! I love that you calculated her menstruation and fertility! It really debunks the theory! Good work! All I can say is that Sir John Cheke skillfully avoided implications in the coup attempt of Lady Jane Grey. Skillfully avoided implication of Seymour attempting to manipulate the young King. But crumbled under the pressure of Queen Mary to Convert to Catholicism. It was a court of very conflicting and divisive loyalties. Full of intrigue and manipulation as well as mind control. People were so disposable! Even Queen Mary was conflicted in her loyalties to Cheke and her siblings. It was a pit of vipers where everyone including the Kings and Queens were constantly being manipulated and gas lighted. And they did the same to everyone else. Can you imagine living in a time when lack of fertility could bring death? When your sibling or cousin was your greatest frenemy? When your cousins were family maybe close, but you had to be suspicious? It's like sibling rivalry on over drive! Fascinating but insane!
I totally agree with you, Claire. Mary may have had a superior attitude her mother was from royalty and Elizabeth was not.
I dont think that Ann would have been unfaithful to Henry as I feel she truly loved him. I am curious about the child she lost in 1536? What would have happened to the child she lost after the miscarriage. Would the child have been buried, or was that a thing in those days.
In regards to Elizabeth I being fathered by anyone other than Henry, I find that impossible. In the pictures I have seen, she bears a pronounced resemblance not only to Henry VIII, but his father, Henry VIII as well.
I'm not sure what happened to the baby's body.
Thanks so much for this video! I have always thought that Mark Smeaton confessed to having a sexual relationship with Anne to avoid the horror of the usual traitor’s death. Going after Mark Smeaton first was Cromwell’s deliberate strategy. Once the confession was obtained from him, the idea of Anne’s guilt would have been considered established, as would be the probable guilt of the other men, no matter what they said.
I completely agree with you, I doubt Smeaton was Elizabeth I’s true father, and I highly doubt Mary thought this either
I have watched you for years. You never disappoint. Thank you Claire.
Thanks Claire. IMO Elizabeth looked more like her father while Mary looked more like her mother.
I don't think Mary looked like either parent.
Very interesting....I just wouldn't doubt that Henry is Elizabeth's father....she looks so much like him to me. I don't think she had relations with Mark at all and I do hope they find contemporary proof of this whole horrid event.
Mark Smeaton was torture and his family was at risk too. He had no choice but to continue the lie unfortunately. Hopefully, he's at peace now.
We don't know whether he WAS tortured, it might have been more psychological pressure or a kind of plea bargain. He certainly bore no signs of torture at his execution.
I read elsewhere that Mark Sweaton was tortured in the Tower after being arrested. If it was severe enough, he probably would’ve confessed to anything just to make the pain stop.
Clifford was not an unbiased source, given his connections with Dormer and Queen Mary. I think his word should have been taken with great big lumps of salt by Weir and Farquahar and any later historians. Analysis of sources is so important. Thanks again for a great talk, Claire, and to Rose for a great question. ❤
Yes, and I'm not sure Jane Dormer sharing stories so many years on can be taken as a reliable source.
When I first saw the title of the video!! More history, yes!! I love all of these videos. ❤
I had never heard that rumour. I believe you're right though.
I enjoy your presentations so much!
A virginal instrument sounds like a harpsichord and the player needs both hands to make the correct notes. Anne, it seems was trying to say Marks hands were on the harpsichord and not on her. Also, that Anne knew sounds did carry upwards into the king's bedroom where the King would have heard the music. Anne is implying the King and any of his guests there would have heard the sounds though the uninsulated and not soundproof floor above. Surly, the King would have hated being used as an alibi for both Anne and Mark. Well, no matter what Anne might say to save herself, her husband was not hearing any claims from her.
Thank you Claire 🙋🏼♀️👸💜
I think Elizabeth 1st looks too much like her grandfather Henry 7th and his mother Margaret Beaufort to have doubts cast on her paternity. I realise Tudor artists had a 'style' but there is a very real likeness between the three.
Totally Agree.
Wow Elizabeth had her mother’s eyes. I love your channel, so wish you were around in the 80’s, back then I watched Anne of the Thousand Days a zillion times and had Massachusetts yearly Renaissance Faire . You always have a new way of seeing the Tudors! ❤ From the states and thankyou
Anything Weir writes in her “non-fiction” books need to be taken with a grain of salt. Thank you for this video!
Yes although Alison Weir is quite good and a nice writer, she can definitely be bias and believing in a certain narrative.
Thanks for saying what I think. I have never been able to read more than a few pages of any of her books.
But this is actually a 16th century source she's quoting, it's not something she's made up.
A long-standing calumny.
Henry was Elizabeth’s father. Anne B may have acted rashly at times, but she was very intelligent. Anne B would not have been that dumb to cheat on Henry. Any confession obtained during torture should not be believed. And any confession obtained from threat of torture is suspect too. I love your channel! I enjoy all you discuss and have the history to prove your points and any topic. Thank you so much!
Pretty much agree with you!!!
I really feel for Smeaton, and I can only imagine the fear he must've felt facing his death, his maker, in such a religious world with a lie against the queen on his lips. RIP to them all, awful.
I agree with you!
I agree with everything you said. I think people repeat these silly stories to sell their books to the ignorant.
Why did Smeaton say "Masters, I pray you all pray for me, for I have deserved the death".
or Wyatt write
Ah! Mark, what moan should I for thee make more,
*Since that thy death thou hast deserved best*
Save only that mine eye is forced sore
With piteous plaint to moan thee with the rest?
A time thou hadst above thy poor degree,
The fall whereof thy friends may well bemoan:
A rotten twig upon so high a tree
Hath slipped thy hold, and thou art dead and gone.
I understand your works are financially based on praising Anne Boleyn, though she was much different in the eyes of all that knew here during her lifetime. It would be a boon to history if she was portrayed in full personality. We know women in all states even Queens had affairs. Not saying Smeaton was the father but Anne could've gad affairs.
Mark Smeaton had borne false witness against Anne. That made him a rotten twig! None - ZERO - of the other men made any such accusation. Wyatt was as likely as anyone, aside from Anne or Smeaton, to know that Mark Smeaton died forsworn, because he was a high-level courtier. If you want to accuse anyone of having a chance at being Anne’s physical lover, you can choose between Harry Percy or Wyatt himself, before she yielded herself to Henry.
I think Mark Seaton did Not father Elizabeth 1 - Queen Anne Boleyn and Kind Henry V111 were of course desperate to produce an heir but there was no privacy in the Court, think how a few years later fifth wife/Katherine Howard had to have her lady in waiting Jane Rockford to help her meet her admirer in the privy - and other ladies in waiting were all questioned and poor Katherine had the axe! Anne Boleyn had the sword which was lenient for Henry V111 - I think if he truly believed Anne guilty she would have had the axe as Katherine sadly did
How fascinating! Thank you for such a a wealth of information told with great clarity.
I am less than a neophyte to this time of history. (And I'm American, with only one grandparent British.) But I must say that my ears picked up upon hearing that the commoner musician was entertained by the doomed Queen IN HER CHAMBERS.
I'm 72, and when we were girls (now called tweenagers) we were taught that if a woman invited a man into her apartment, and the couple were alone, the man had every reason to believe that woman was signalling she wanted sex with him. Such niceties have fallen by the wayside in this era of "friends with benefits." But weren't morals strict in the 16th Century? Or was Merry Ole England really that merry?!
Again, thank you for your fascinating presentation!
Godspeed to thee and thine! 🌹
Henry covered all his bases. Even the man that Anne was once in love with, and planning to marry, Henry Percy was forced to testify against her in court. He fainted when he heard the sentence and charges against her, and had to be carried out of the courtroom.
Presumably we could know this if we wanted - test Elizabeth and Henry's DNA. Presumably they are well enough preserved.
If Mary trully believed Elizabeth wasn't her sister, she would never have allowed the crown to pass to her.
Alison Weir can be a little biased with her opinions and beliefs as evident in her Six Tudor Queens historical fiction series 📚
Alison is very much pro Catherine of Aragon and Mary so in turn is not the biggest Anne Boleyn fan and it shows.
Being a fan of one doesn't mean you need to be against the other. It's not about taking sides, there aren't any sides.
Weir is not just "a little biased," in my opinion. She is a great big biased!
Yes, Weir has often spoken of her admiration of Catherine of Aragon and doesn't have much time for Anne, but she is quoting from a 16th century source here.
@@anneboleynfiles Oh of course. I was just talking generally 😊
@@anneboleynfilesBut she doesn't consider any bias the source may have.
Sorry Claire I wrote Anne instead of your name.
I'll take that as a compliment!
QEI had her daddy’s red hair…. Poor Mary… frustrated all of her life..
I think Elizabeth looked a lot like her grandfather, Henry Vii.
Yes, I agree.
What do you think would have happened between the sisters and the two woman’s lives if Henry didn’t marry Anne until after Catherine died?
When Mary I was dying and named Elizabeth as her successor, did she have any other choice?
"Confessed" 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I read your article at your website but the links you have to the original article by Brian M. Collins do not work. Tried searching at the Winchester Cathedral website but no luck. Of course it's been 13 years and the 404 error page says they have reorganized the website. Of course I have every confidence your 2016 article summarizes the details sufficiently! So I have only done a cursory search for his article online, not found yet. I think your theory about Smeaton's confession as part of a plea deal for a less gruesome death makes sense.
Yes, they don't seem to have put the article on their updated website, unfortunately.
In my honest opinion, I think Henry not questioning Elizabeth's paternity is proof that he did not believe Anne was guilty. It is highly suspicious to me that all of the accusations are conveniently after Elizabeth's birth and in between her miscarriages, almost like he is saying something he knows there will be no proof to contradict.
I doubt it very much. Elizabeth looked so like Henry . She had his firey red hair too.
What really irritates me is that Henry could have as many mistresses as he liked. Yet a wife would be essentially a traitor if she stepped outside the exclusivity of marriage. This continued well into the modern age. In many cultures! Thank God we live in modern times. What a double standard? You have Alexandra. You have Wallis Simpson. You have Diana. James I. William Rufus. Richard the Lion Heart. What do you do with non-conventional kings,Queens and consort?
The reason was that a man can't get pregnant and bear a child who isn't the spouse's. Before DNA testing, there was no way of knowing if the queen was bearing the king's child or not except to ensure her fidelity.
Yes, there were so very many double standards in those times.
Have you come across any information stating or hinting that Henry Norreys' and Anne Boleyn were actually having an affair? I am descended from Henry. I read an article last year saying that there is evidence or something to that effect, that proves that they were friends but not lovers. Have you seen anything to that effect as well?
No, I've never found any hint that Norris and Anne were involved romantically.
Pffft baaaahahahaaaaa. Meanwhile, she looks just like Henry! 😅
Men don't have periods or miscarriages. But I agree with you on the rest. Very well argued.
Elizabeth was conceived October or November 1532. In France far from England and Mark Smeaton. Who didn’t arrive in Anne’s household until 1533. Instead of blathering about what people thought or would could should
Actually Mark was at court, part of the King's household from 1529.
Hiya Claire, I think this is a fix up, between Anne Boleyn and Mark Smeaton, I think its was a set up so Cromwell could get his own way, thats all I have to say about it, this is Paul In Whitehaven, Cumbria, England
I am rather bemused by various individuals condemning Smeaton for claiming after undue pressure, ( A nice euphemistic way to describe what was probably torture.), that he committed adultery with Anne and not withdrawing the accusation at his execution. Well they weren't the ones being tortured and I have little doubt that Smeaton damn well knew if he retracted at the execution the full rigor of a traitor's death would then be inflicted on him. Smeaton wasn't a hero from a dime novel and the people complaining about his lack of heroism weren't the ones "pressured". I cut him a lot of slack.
Elisabeth Looks Like Henry
Elizabeth I had a striking resemblance to…. Henry VIII. With that red hair, could she really not be a Tudor?
Love the little Tudor Rattie Lady! 🐀🥰
I agree with you. Mary would have been spiteful when she said it. Both were redheads like their father and the Tudors.
Elizabeth swore to maintain the Catholic Church in England, which is why Mary agreed to her succession, but of course Elizabeth lied.
Mama's baby...Papa's maybe? 🤔 Seriously...I believe Elizabeth was the daughter of H8. At the time of conception...Anne was hopefull for a boy and was in Henry's good grace. She would not have stumbled at that time. Elizabeth had Red hair and pale skin like H8.
Is there a surviving portrait of Mark Smeaton?
Likely not as he was just a musician not a nobleman. Also even more less likely when there are no surviving portraits of Anne Boleyn and those noblemen accused and executed such as George Boleyn. The portraits purported to be of Anne Boleyn we are familiar with today are later works. The only certain likeness of Anne from her time is that battered silver coin.
No, but then he was just a court musician, so not at all important.
I have trouble with this trendy theory that Anne was some sort of Saint; just don't think she was.
I don't think Ann was a saint. I think she was a lady of her times. A person, not a saint or a villian. But someone put in a difficult situation.
@@UtahGmaw99 I can agree with that. But I also think she was perfectly willing to do "a thing", but be quite upset later when the Exact same thing was done to her. To be fair though, that isn't an uncommon human trait.
@@avalonkerr8332I don't think Anne is considered a saint. She was a human with flaws like us all.
But she wasn't a villain either. Sure she may have said, thought or did bad things but wasn't an all out villain. And looking at the flimsy evidence and charges against her, Anne was likely innocent and undeserving of her fate.
I was only referring to the current "cult of Anne B" who tend to see her as a saint; certainly there are many varying opinions among us history nerds :)
@@avalonkerr8332 Yes there are definitely those who are pro and anti Anne Boleyn but are there really those who consider Anne a saint?
She had reasons to hate Anne Boleyn. No one likes the woman who usurps their mother
I'm writing a novel on Mark smeaton [or Marc Smeton, he was flemish]. Hope you all like it when it's finally out!
😟
Mary was just being a B.
I don’t believe in the accusations against Anne either, nor do I doubt that Mary believed this odd rumor that Elizabeth wasn’t fathered by the King. She certainly did not care for her due to her mother suffering as she did in the Great Matter fiasco, but if she had the slightest bit of doubt she had her pick of nobles to appoint as the next King of England and to no doubt ensure he was a Catholic as well to further her ambitions to restore England to the faith after her death.
I kind of wonder if Henry hated Marc Smeaton because he was more talented and handsome than Henry. Norris and some of the other men were better jousters and had sons, which Henry could not have. Pope Clement was low born in Henry's opinion. The medici were bankers. Jealousy is typical of narcissism. Mary 1 was not ugly. She was pretty and looked like Elizabeth of York.
No Elizabeth looked to much like Henry, her father
Nah. She looked too much like her paternal grandma.
I think Mary only said that stuff cuz Anne Boleyn was really abusive towards her and she wanted to get back at her
I dont think Mark Smeaton fathered Elizabeth either. For one, Elizabeth had Henry's red hair and facial features. But I am wondering Mark got his punishment upgraded from drawn and quartered to head chopping just by claiming to have had sex with Anne.
Did Mark Smeaton receive a full traitor's death? I wouldn't trust whoever made the deal with him (if there was a deal & I agree with you, that was probably the case) to follow through.
He was beheaded, so he had a more merciful death than the others did.
He was beheaded, thankfully, but I expect that he went to his death without retracting his confession because he feared being hanged, drawn and quartered.
@anneboleynfiles I wonder if anyone at the time speculated at his "merciful" death. That was unusual for his rank, correct? Francis Dearum didn't fair as well, did he?
@@AprilBird4 I haven't found any mention of people questioning it, but, yes, Dereham wasn't so lucky.
I've always thought that Elizabeth bore the face and countenance of Margaret Beaufort, her great grandmother, especially later in Elizabeth's life - also I doubt very much that Anne would have risked her position by committing adultery.
Yes, I think she looked very much like Margaret and Henry VII too.
@@anneboleynfiles I'd forgotten about Henry VII, but yes - she has his air of parsimony (not sure if she was actually like that of course!) I find it surprising that even today there are those willing to cast aspersions on Anne; I think it's sad.
y'know, somehow I doubt Brian M. Collins thought to plot Anne's monthly cycle in his investigation for his article.😄
Well, it would be a basic thing to do when you're writing about conception 😂
@anneboleynfiles ohyes! But somehow, the man missed😁 out on the timing and counting the days...
@@1234cheerful I think he missed a lot!
Checking the cycle is important. And I'm no historian (I'm a retired English teacher). But I must add that the cycle isn't always regular. It can be early. It can be late. A child can even be conceived while a woman is having her period. So it's good to keep in mind that checking the cycle isn't scientific proof. But it does have value nonetheless. 🌹
No. Next
It's hard nowadays to think that anyone accused of so many crimes, like Anne Boleyn, was innocent of all of them. However in this case I think it's fairly safe to say that all of Anne's crimes were likely false or at best extremely exaggerated. She simply had many political enemies and Henri was tired of her and desperate for a son.
Honestly though, whatever the case, I don't think Mary ever seriously considered whether or not Henri was Elizabeth's father as well, given their similarities, particularly the red hair, which is a recessive gene. Now granted, they wouldn't have known that last bit in Tudor times, but they probably did notice it wasn't a very common trade.
I think nowadays, with our justice system, we'd think that she must have done something, but not with Tudor justice. As Eric Ives pointed out, three quarters of the dates in the indictments just didn't make sense - Anne was not even at the palace named or she was in confinement after childbirth. They weren't even careful in drawing up the indictments, they knew they didn't need to be with the jury they had chosen.
Oh, a click-bait title - for shame!!
I don't think so.....she looked so much a Tudir
Not a chance! For the main reason is she looks exactly like Henry VIII!
I know that the paintings but I think Elizabeth I really looks like Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn.
Elizabeth I and Mary I Iook alike.
This is ridiculous.
Anne wanted a royal baby...plain and simple
Before I listen to this. No. That is my answer.
Mary and Elizabeth's relationship was rocky at times but they loved each other.
Elizabeth just like Mary and Edward and their father had their grandmother, Lady Margaret Beaufort eyes.
If Mary believed anyone else was Elizabeth's father she would have gotten on the rooftop of Westminster Abbey and started screaming it.
People just like to make things up for attention.
Elizabeth didn't tho, she had her mother's eyes
I think Elizabeth's eye colour was from Anne, but there are definite similarities when you compare her portraits to those of Henry VII and Margaret Beaufort.
@@anneboleynfiles you're correct. Elizabeth most likely had her mother's eye color (as you stated) and her father and paternal grandmother's hooded eye shape.
@@clairemora7715her eyes were shaped like Lady Margaret's.
Where did you dig up this ridiculous theory? I have faith in your research and intelligence please don’t let conspiracy theorist interfere.
Did you watch the video? Claire explained where the story came from and why she doesn't believe it.
I'm guessing you didn't watch my video as I explain I'm answering Rose's question. I've been answering subscribers' questions on Tudor history. I also share what it's based on, which is words that Mary I allegedly spoke, recorded by Henry Clifford who was part of the household of Jane Dormer, who had served Mary I. It's not a conspiracy theory.
@@anneboleynfiles thank you, I will definitely check the video out. 👍😀
For heavens sake , what a lot of tripe!!!!!!!
'Anne' was the father, Claire.
Mmm wrong rair color...and Elizabeth was concived out side off vedlock, pretry certain H was all over her mum...