What is the CES Letter? Ep. 124
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- čas přidán 22. 06. 2021
- In this episode, Dave talks about a former Latter-day Saint named Jeremy Runnells and a controversial document he created known as the CES Letter.
Transcript and Notes: bit.ly/3zZHka1
The Church’s Gospel Topics Essays: bit.ly/3vsg9AX
Encyclopedia of Mormonism: bit.ly/3d20zWD
Faith and Beliefs playlist covering Joseph Smith topics: bit.ly/3wryFLi
Faith and Beliefs playlist covering Church history topics: bit.ly/3xmqOyp
Faith and Beliefs playlist covering Book of Mormon topics: bit.ly/3xBIWVt
Faith and Beliefs playlist covering gospel doctrine: bit.ly/3wnfzG1
Joseph Smith Papers Project: bit.ly/35op9Na
BYU Studies: bit.ly/3vrgLXM
Read “Saints” vol. 1 here: bit.ly/3cJ8Myq
Read “Saints” vol. 2 here: bit.ly/2U9cbAr
Example of one response to the CES Letter by a believing Latter-day Saint (the author’s views and methods are his own): bit.ly/3pXXGLK
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As a nonbeliever I really appreciate you’re message at the end. I truly do believe that loving thy neighbor is one of the most important things we can all do.
Loving thy neighbor also means telling them the hard truth. The CES letters biggest claim is that Smith didn't translate the book of Abraham right! It's important to show you how they tricked you by deceptively fast lighting you. You'll be mad when you see how the CES stunt makes fools out of good people. In just a few minutes let me expose this dirty trickery. Link UTube video titled (BOA ep 16) link My name Paul Gregersen to get there.
your*
Yes, I agree with you. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the gospel of love, despite our differences. It is good practice at home, at work place, and in our social media communication.
And Jesus is the author of “love thy neighbor.”
Ex-Mormon here. I thought David hit the tone just right. He didn't use strawman arguments, and assumed the best intentions of his opponent. Well done, and great content.
His scheme is still the same. He's hiding I and even you can see that.
He didn't really discuss his problems with the letter so I'm still confused. He only said to love people and respect them for their decisions
@@truthgiverandfinder3246
He's hiding what..????
@@truthgiverandfinder3246
Truth giver in finder I like that title...
I'm hoping that everybody that is in the dark about the truth can use that mantra and remove the obstacles of the devil..
Can you possibly share why you are in ex-mormon.?
From time to time I've been in inactive church member.. and I've analyzed my own so-called reasons..
And I like to hear the reasons of other people too as long as they remain respectful.. I know the church doctrine is true and I've always returned to it.
Feeling that most of the time some people just get tired of things which are repetitious. That's my reason for becoming inactive at times.
Repetition can be so boring.
Even when it's the truth. I tend to back off and rest up.
I hesitate about sharing the information and the wonderful documentaries with friends or people that I know because I'm afraid that they will find it pushy.
But I always follow it up with assuring them that I'm not trying to be pushy and that they can choose every second of time accordingly to whatever they wish.. you can't force anybody that's for sure I think it's better to just let you know or anybody else but it's all about choice every second of the day that passes that's a private choice about what we do with it whether we gain knowledge or we don't.
God actually allows us to practice patience even with ourselves.
Thank you so much for the tone of these videos. As a believing member, I have wished that I could find content like this that covers the issues without fear, but doesn't have an antagonistic agenda.
I don’t think most people want to come off as antagonistic. It’s just hard to debunk an entire religion with out hurting some core values people have.
Absolutely agree. I loved the conclusion about people who leave the faith. There is no need to ostracize or demonize people who think and feel differently.
@@globofgreen it's true. It's hard to disagree with people's narrative without triggering them in some way. But there is definitely plenty of real antagonism out there, too. There is also a lot of a certain other phenomenon that I don't like where the critics refuse to get into the nuance, because they don't think they need to. It's so obvious to them that the Book of Mormon is false, for example, that they can't be bothered to debate about the presence of chiasmus in it; or it is so obvious to them that Joseph Smith is a sex-crazed weirdo that they don't really care to debate whether the evidence shows that he was motivated by something else, and may not even have consummated many of his marriages. Interestingly, it seems to me to be the believers who are more willing to get into the details on these types of things. So it's nice to find a channel that isn't afraid to go into the dirty details, but that also doesnt have the "case is closed" mentality that keeps things superficial.
I definitely get into the "case is closed" mentality when it comes to Trump supporters and their election claims (so I understand the position), but with Joseph Smith, I'm personally not ready to close the case.
Don’t be so blind. You’re still a believing member after allll the lies that have come out? Fool!
You guys are doing great work. The last statement was the best--we are under commandment to love others. No matter where they are or what they do, as followers of Jesus Christ we must love. Quite frankly, living the gospel and seeking to emulate the Savior's example brings peace and reaffirms faith.
@ Travis Prestwich - yes let’s follow The example of Jesus … he didn’t get married, he didn’t teach that we can become gods, he didn’t do baptisms for dead people, he didn’t require tithing to enter the temple, he didn’t perform secret sacred temple rituals.
I don’t say this to put down Mormonism … just to say that if we actually lived as Jesus lived, we would not be accepted by the LDS Church today.
So I’m left with a problem … do I follow the example and teaching of Jesus? Or do I follow the example and the teachings of “modern” prophets?
I choose to follow Jesus and he (nor his disciples) didn’t teach or do anything that resembles LDS belief and practices today. It’s a new (not restored) religion founded by a man
@@zmig7793 I'm a bit tentative in responding because I don't want to create an atmosphere of debate and argument rather than discussion. Social media, in particular, creates an environment of debate. With that caveat and understanding I'll try and address your comment. How do you know that Jesus did not marry? There's no evidence or record of that in the New Testament one way or the other. Certainly God endorses marriage. Depending on your view of what life's purpose is and to what end Christ teaches, one could make an argument for either side of this point by relying solely on the words in the current New Testament.
Christ did teach that those who follow Him will inherit everything the Father has. Is that limited to possessions when possessions don't matter? Or is that something greater? As for baptisms for the dead, while there is no record of Christ performing such an ordinance, His apostles make reference to Christ teaching spirits in prison so that they may be baptized unto repentance. And, as for temples, you don't know what ordinances he performed in temples because, again, there is no record. However, if you believe that Christ is Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, then you know that He gave priests ordinances and rituals to perform in temples anciently and continued to teach of temples' importance during His life.
So where does this lead? I think it leads to the necessity of prophets and apostles--those to whom Christ/Jehovah entrusted greater light and knowledge, so that they could teach His people about His Gospel. Christ confirms that His life was a fulfillment of His prophets' teachings before His birth and then charges His Apostles, i.e. prophets, to preach His Gospel after His resurrection. If prophets and apostles were important then, and critical to Christ's/Jehovah's message then, why not now?
If you assert that that Revelations tells us that scripture ends with that book and that there is no need for prophets and apostles, I disagree. First, Revelations is not the last book written in contained in the New Testament. Moreover, such a teaching would be inconsistent with Christ's prior teaching about the necessity of prophets and He is an unchanging God.
Whether you choose to believe and follow modern prophets, that choice is yours. From the standpoint of a critical thinker, how does it make any sense that God the Father and Jesus Christ would work through prophets and apostles for thousands of years and then, with the death of the last apostle in the New Testament, cut off all communication with man? That makes no sense to me at all. But relying merely on rational thought alone cannot solve that question anyway. One must ask God how He works. He reveals His truth and His Gospel through His prophets.
@@travisprestwich748 I see that this is an old comment but wanted to reply and hope you see it.
We do know that neither Jesus nor anyone else in history was married or baptized in the Jewish temple because we have the history both in the Bible and other Jewish histories that all teach the same things about what happened in the temple and none of it was kept secret from the general public. The only people allowed to enter the inside of the temple were the priests who performed the sacrifices and the priests were the ones who were washed and anointed before performing their duties in the temple. Marriages were done at peoples homes.
There is no teaching that we should do baptisms for the dead, there is only one verse in the entire Bible that only mentions a group of people who did not believe in the resurrection but were doing baptisms for the dead. The whole point that was being made was about us being resurrected.
There are many passages that repeat the teaching of there being only one God and there are not any passages about men becoming Gods in either the Bible or even the Book of Mormon. Both the Bible and BoM teach that there is only one God and that He has always been God. The Bible gives us 2 tests that we are to apply to anyone who is claiming to be a prophet to make sure that they are a true prophet of God. If they teach a different God and/or if they have any prophecies that do not come to pass then they are a false prophet. Joseph Smith taught a different God who is nothing more than an exalted man instead of the one eternal God that has always existed according to all of the true prophets who came before him. The God of Mormonism is not the God found in the Bible or even the BoM. Joseph Smith is a false prophet according to both the Bible and the BoM.
Knowing that Joseph Smith was a false prophet will not save anyone of course, the true gospel of Jesus Christ is what does that and you can find it in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8.
I pray that you see this message and do your own research of what the Bible teaches. I was a member of the LDS church for 20 years before God opened my eyes to His true gospel and now I am a born again Christian after reading the New Testament with an open mind and praying to know the truth. I encourage everyone to read the New Testament as a child reading it for the first time and see for yourself what it really teaches without anyone telling you what it says.
@@jakeseward9035
Psalm 82:6
John 10:34-35
Ephesians 1:10,13
1 Corinthians 15:29
Maybe you interpret the scriptures differently, but you cannot say that they don't mention becoming as God, getting sealed to your spouse, or being baptized for the dead. Also, I'll just add that Jesus taught from the scriptures, the writings and teachings from prior prophets and apostles. God is great! He makes his will known to us through a prophet and apostles. He has had different commandments for his people throughout different times for their protection (thank goodness we can currently eat pork!). These days there are dangerous things that the bible doesn't warn us about, but luckily God is not dead, he is the same yesterday, today and forever. He has called a prophet and 12 apostles to continue guiding us. He wants us to return home to Him, and I hope that many will want to return to him as well!
@@taylorsessions4143
Psalms 82 is talking about judges who were supposed to be acting in the name of God but were giving unjust rulings. Read the chapter and look at the context, it certainly is not teaching that men can become gods. John 10 is Jesus quoting from Psalms and the context again is not teaching that men can become gods.
1 Corinthians 15 mentions a group that is doing baptisms for the dead. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach the practice of baptisms for the dead.
Ephesians 1 says that we are sealed in Christ. It does not say anything about marriage and it is talking about individual salvation.
Put all of the scriptures you shared into context and see what they say for yourself. I don't want you to take my word, or anyone else's, to know what the Bible teaches. Just read it for yourself and let the true word of God teach you instead of relying on men.
An important question we should always ask ourselves is "am I following God, or am I following men?"
I realized that as a Mormon I was placing more importance on the words of the church leaders than I was on the words of God.
Thank you for your message about respecting those of us who leave or don’t believe. It’s important to allow for the criticism of ideas, but it doesn’t mean it’s okay to attack people personally.
Ya!
I pray you find your way back. Amen.
I'm an ex mormon, agnostic atheist and am often critical of your video content, but kudos on this one. Nicely done. 👍👏
I have also left, and echo these sentiments. Well done on this video.
Same. It doesn't change my stance in the slightest, but I'm very happy to see someone/a channel that can approach the topic with a level head. Good video.
Came here to say the same thing, much better tone then the last critical CES letter video that was released.
Kenneth, I would disagree they did a good job. Far from it. I did a video on where they are wrong and break down his argument easily, just using LDS leaders including Quarum of the Twelve members. there is not a point he made that shows CES to be incorrect in its information, he only attacks it exists. In my view that is NOT well done, it is an attack where the Church leaders their self disagree with him, including Richard Bushman...
Nobody cares how you identify. Get past it and go onto bigger things. Yes... It's great that you all are in a better place but don't get a dopamine high from your new identity. It's small minded and a lot of people fall into that trap.
Dave, I so much appreciate your perspective here. The best thing I can think to say is thank you. It's refreshing to hear someone respectfully address topics antagonistic to the truth claims of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Thank you for leading us to the resources to discover more information on our own, and thank you for being respectful to those who disagree. This was a very well-though-out and dare I say inspired video. Thank you to you and the team who put this together.
I first came across the CES letter a few years ago because of a comment on a CZcams video I watched. Most of what I read in the CES letter were argument I had heard before. What was new to me was someone seriously disputing the reliability of spiritual experiences. I soon came across ideas that spiritual experiences may be an evolutionary adaptation and may originate in our brains. After talking with an atheist friend of mine, I also learned of a concept called "the outsider test for faith." All of these ideas rocked my boat. However, I have since put forth the effort to really read, ponder, and even pray about all this for myself. Below is a link to my efforts, and I'm still on a journey to continually discover more. Dave (as well as anyone reading), I would really love your thoughts on this if you have time. I just started following you on Instagram as well per the link in the description of this video. Thanks again! Keep up the great work.
docs.google.com/document/d/1Q3nWg5YbPHokFj5pZ6xQkUxHCF9c3WLPDC2wRaEVUAo/edit?usp=sharing
This is exactly the kind of honesty and transparency I’ve been looking for! The kind of thing the church needs!
I’m an “on the fence” member who felt more drawn back into the church fold by the honesty in this video than all of the “just stay safe and in the boat” conference talks and church website articles combined.
Dear church leadership: THIS.
This video is an example of the answer you seek to the question of how to keep church members faithfully aboard.
How we get them to stop jumping ship in droves?
THIS.
Unflinching honesty. Really real realness.
Transparency = trust kept
“Just trust us and do what we’re telling you God told us” = trust lost
Only when we start answering the REAL questions, the risky ones, will church credibility be restored and exodus of church membership stemmed.
Have the courage, honor, and humility to be fully transparent and let God take it from there. Show some faith in faith… answer the risky questions like:
How REALLY does revelation come to the prophet? Does God talk directly and in-person or is modern revelation more of group and spiritual confirmation (strong consensus among high-caliber, spiritually attuned individuals followed by strong impressions and feelings of confirmation)?
Finances. How much is in reserve? How are the funds being used, and how much are church leaders and employees paid? (We want transparency from corporations and governments but not from the organization that we’re to trust our eternal soul and future with?)
Membership and activity. How is it REALLY going? Do we keep assuming that “all is well” in Zion and church membership is strong, growing, and thriving or do we all need to roll up our sleeves and get out there to help bring the flock back to safety because it’s struggling in large masses?
Emotional issues. Am I the only one who looks around and sees a lot of church members just going through the motions and humans in general (including church members) REALLY struggling with feelings of discontent, loneliness and/or overwhelm? Does the church have a toxic perfectionism problem? Is there a spike in depression in the church because of the “all-or-none” mentality that seems to exist? Why are areas with high church membership also the highest in the country for depression and even suicide?
Just. Be. Transparent. Please stop it with the lazy and lax finger-wagging and just trust us with the truth! I think people will look past all the church history “stumpers” and the CES letter stuff etc. if they feel they are being trusted and honestly communicated with about TODAY’S stuff.
Dodging around the issues and playing truth-nastics though… will only add to the plausibility of things like the CES letter.
Kudos SaintsUnscripted! You won back some ground with this video. Keep it up!
If only more members took this approach. Truly, many people who leave are good, loving , caring people who only want to do what God wants them to do. The struggles that these topics bring up are so real. It removes the fairy tale approach to the LDS church and looks at very sordid and disturbing realities of the church.
We should show love and patience. Remember, "charity never faileth". But, Holier than thou judgement will certainly drive those questioning these topics away.
However none of this tackles the basic issue of The truth of smiths claims- the very basis of this church . Transparency etc of church activity , finances, are meaningless Is the claim true? That’s the crux
Jason Petersen: I agree, I love Saints Unscripted and feel that it has the potential to help a lot of people.
I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. It makes my life a lot happier, and I truly believe that most people are doing the best they can most of the time. I apply that to Church Leaders, too. Rather than assume that they are trying to permanently conceal important facts, I think, what might be a logical, reasonable reason why the Church doesn't come out in General Conference or Sunday School with a lot of these controversial issues? Is it not because topics like faith in Christ and repentance and service and love and forgiveness deserve more of our attention? These side issues only become seemingly important to understand once we are exposed to them--so why expose somebody prematurely who is only starting to develop a testimony? Maybe it is a little bit like sex education. Yes, sooner or later our children need to know important principles of where babies come from and how to protect oneself from unintended pregnancies and STDs. But should we be teaching all of that stuff in kindergarten? Similarly, Church leaders probably felt that knowing every detail of Joseph Smith's life was unnecessary for a person's salvation, so why bring it up? Let's focus on Christ. But now that the internet makes access to everything universal, the Church is appropriately addressing these side issues, in the appropriate location (the Church website). That's what I believe, but I understand if others believe differently.
Regarding depression and toxic perfectionism: yes, many human beings are prone to depression and toxic perfectionism. Several talks in the last several General Conferences have beautifully addressed this issue. I feel that Church leaders are doing a great job of trying to balance our need to improve in Christ and our need to forgive ourselves and not get down on ourselves for being imperfect.
Regarding transparency: isn't it awesome that our Church Handbook is available online for anyone to read and review? That's amazing transparency right there. Regarding finances, as far as I know the Church doesn't yet publish exactly how it spends every dime. I think that is totally understandable. If they should, I would expect that hoardes of back-seat drivers would feel compelled to criticize. Too much saving. Too much humanitarian aid. Too much temples. Too much living allowance for leaders. Whatever. Nobody would agree with each other. I wouldn't be surprised if someday the Church did publish the exact finances. But I am ok paying my tithing and not knowing where every dime is spent, because I see the fruits of the Church: buildings where we can worship God, humanitarian aid, saving for a rainy day (that's a good thing), Church leaders enabled to travel around the world to teach the Gospel, etc. etc. I would much sooner like to know exactly how the government spends our taxes. Watching ten minutes of any political campaign speech is enough for me to lose my confidence in politicians. Watching ten minutes of General Conference is enough for me to trust our Church leaders.
Regarding how things are going: almost everyone is struggling. That is a part of life, and joining the Church and following Christ doesn't guarantee a lack of struggles. It just helps us to avoid adding some additional self-inflicted trials, and it helps us to know to whom we can turn (Christ) for help. In a broader view, looking at the whole picture, since struggles and trials were always intended to be a part of mortality, and since God is in control and knowing exactly how to help us all reach our fullest potential, then "it is well."
Etc. etc. I should get back to work, LOL!
@@joshuafusselman3323 great comment. Thanks!
I also feel that most people are just trying to do the best they can. Including church leadership (wow what a HARD job by the way). No disagreement there.
That said, I still feel strongly that there are honest answers to sincere questions that I personally would appreciate. If we’re going to be asked to follow men who talk FOR God, I’d like to know how they talk TO him (because SO SO many people have claimed to talk for God… it’s SO easy to be deceived by people claiming authority in every area of life).
If we’re going to make tithing a necessity in order to attend the temple wedding of a beloved family member or friend… and families are quite literally being torn apart over this… we should fall on the side of financial transparency.
That’s just how I feel personally though. I can also see where you’re coming from and don’t find it to be an uneducated, bad, or “wrong” view at all.
Thanks again!
@@JasonP313 Thank you for the kind response.
I have the same questions, but they definitely don't keep me up at night. Like, I wonder if President Nelson talks with Jesus face to face? I'm okay, whether or not he does, but I am curious. Possibly there is more information published by the Church on that topic that I just haven't come across yet. In the meantime I just assume that leadership revelation is mostly the same as the personal revelation that we most often receive: unspoken promptings and strong feelings. Occasionally revelation may be more direct and impressive, but those occasions may be felt to be too sacred to share.
I also feel that God generally will not send an angel when the still small voice can accomplish the task.
I did hear Sister Wendy Nelson recently say that her husband wakes up frequently in the night, writes down dreams or impressions he has, and then falls back asleep.
Another thing we know about Church leadership is that most if not all major decisions are made in counsel with the quorum of the twelve apostles, and they wait to proceed until they are unanimous. It is probably very much like a ward council, where the Bishop presides and asks the ward council for ideas and input and feedback. Information often sparks inspiration.
As far as families getting torn apart by not being able to attend a personally significant temple wedding: I think most people are mature enough to be understanding, but in the event that there is a parent or sibling who expresses anger and resentment over that proposal, I think an engaged couple might considerately opt for a civil marriage with sealing afterwards.
These are my thoughts! People probably think I am a naïve sheep, and that's ok if they think that. I have a brother-in-law that I love that left the Church a couple years ago over a combination of information that he had never heard before (I had), and information published by apostates that he assumes is true, complete, and unbiased. In my opinion none of it has anything to do with his salvation. None of it can cast a shadow over all the light and love that pours out from the Church.
But I try to be understanding. I think he has major trust issues. He comes from a broken family--including a mother with major mental health issues. In his own words he comes from a line of manipulators. So I don't criticize his lack of trust. My relationship with the Church coincidentally (or not) is similar to my relationship with my parents: I know my parents aren't perfect, but they've always been kind and generous and honest to me and I know they're doing the best they can. Similarly I look at what the Church leaders teach in Conference, in manuals, in the Handbook, and what the scriptures say, and I am constantly impressed.
Beautiful conclusion. I believe my life is much richer because of my association of great people from many faiths.
Amen
Niiice
Hi guys! I have not read this letter, I might one day, just to see what is all discussed. I haven't watched this video yet, which I definitely will!! I love your guys' hard work and dedication to helping other people come to the truth of our savior Jesus Christ! Thank you for all you guys do! ❤
Im an exmormon and I love this video. I appreciate your intellectual honesty and non-judge mental views on those who leave the church as well as those who stay. We could definitely work on fostering less judgement on both sides of the aisle.
Thank you for understanding that people don't just leave a church so they can sin and trying to encourage people to not attack each other.
This is what This is the Show should have been. Pretty respectful.
^^^ This x1000
The show is awesome
Thanks for this thoughtful content. I'm a devoted member, but I think it's rare to encounter a person who truly isn't dismissive about those they disagree with.
Execellent Overview, and reminder to follow Christ's admonition bo "Love your Neighbor, as Yourself." Thanks!
I've not read all of the ces letter. But am familiar with parts of it through the years. And everything that was said against the church and it's history , I have found by doing just a little research. To be either false or misinterpreted . I love church history , and find it fasinating. And instead of making less faithful, it has made me more so. People keep looking for perfection in all its members. But the church is perfect. The people not so much. If we were , we wouldn't need the church. Jesus allowed us to have this institution to help us and our brother and sister reach him .
Thank you for your time familiarizing yourself with this and sharing your overview. I've come to appreciate your reslectful, gentle treatments of an eclectic variety of topics. Continued success!
You should tag more of your stuff #ces so it shows up in the algo. I wholeheartedly agree with this video. I think it's the overwhelming nature of the letter that really gets people. Lots have been debunked but poor research makes it easy to get confused. I do my best to teach how to recognize the spirit and recieve personal revelation to my kids and critical thinking skills that I hope they are prepared when they trip over this stuff.
“Yea I can answer a couple questions.”
*sends an entire novel*
Hugh Nibley wrote a book on enoch. He says the book of enoch in the dead sea scrolls is proof of BOM because the book of moses has portions of it in the text. Hugh says the book of enoch was not in existence in america. However joseph asked a jewish teacher to teach him Hebrew and jews were familiar with the book of enoch. Could he have gotten the book of enoch from him? Also if hugh is a scholar for the church and believes in the book of enoch in the dead sea scrolls why is the prophet not telling saints to read it an have it included in the BOM?
Just so everyone knows who the answer came from can you tell us if your exmormon or mormon apologetic
@@mrs.therapist6122 are you okay? i didnt mean that i can answer your questions. my comment was about how the CES director offered to answer a couple of Jeremy Runnels questions, but instead JR sent the CES letter expecting a response.
@@625Aaron i am okay. I thought you were an apologetic. I will ask them the question i am writing a book about enoch and need to know the answer
Short anwer: No. Joseph Smith could not have heard about Enoch from Joshua Seixas, his Hebrew teacher, becuase he knew him in 1836 whereas Joseph Smith wrote down the Book of Moses in 1830 to 31. Furthermore, Jews did not know such detailed informarion about the esoteric Books of Enoch that they could have provided him with such striking details that parallel ancient Books found well after Joseph's death.
As to your second question, there are many ancient books of sceipture out there that aren't part of the LDS cannon. I've read several of them. When Joseph asked what he should do about these other works (specifically the Apocrypha), God said there were many truths, but they should be read theough discernment of the Spirit. D&C 91
Just found your channel… it’s refreshing!!! Information sprinkled with humor… ❤️. I love the way you ended this one in particular, all of my children had moved … or are transitioning out of the church. My son came home from his mission … long story, but I asked him before he left on his mission if he was gay.. “no”. Year and a half later he’s finally coming out… which I wrestled with, but with lots of prayers and temple time the Lord has walked me through the mess of messiness. We do don’t know all things, but for sure the Lord loves us all, and we too need to do the same for all of humanity. None of my four children attend any church at this time but I love them with every cell of my being and support their journey in all eternity
Very mature in your approach to this topic. I appreciate all that was said and echo the others who have encouraged people to do their own research. The truth is out there, if you look for it. The answers are there for you to find. Very well done and thank you for posting this
@@mikkifrompreston4396 age of accountability older than that it's more like 10 or 11 or 12 if not 13 not 8.
@@mikkifrompreston4396 that was a decision the church made as an attempt to avoid conflict within households with same sex parents. They didn’t want to cause any sort of division. In the end they realized there was a better way to do things and changed the policy.
@@mikkifrompreston4396 The original reason was the church must maintain and teach every one that the gay lifestyle will never happen in Gods church. The church did not originally want to be teaching that doctrine to an 8 year old who had gay parents. The church wants them to wait until 18 so they can understand why! Not prematurely upsetting their family security in their present home at such a young age where they can't understand it. Since the critics took offense and threatened a thousand discrimination law suits protecting these 8 year olds could not hold legally by the Democrat party standards. Unfortunately it was illegal to do so because of Obamas unconstitutional discrimination laws and was unfortunately overturned to prematurely have to teach 8 year olds all gospel laws before they could eventually understand it.
The way I see it, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true and perfect. The rest, including the church, is imperfect. For those who have ought with Joseph, you need only read in the Doctrine and Covenants the many times the Lord called Him and those who served with Him to repentance. For those who have/had a testimony of His gospel and the restoration, know HE will be cleansing His church before His Second Coming. We all need to work on cleansing ourselves before we go out and try to "cleanse" others. Part of this is waking up to our awful situation as warned by ancient prophets. Great video!!!
What you said is in line with my personal confirmations I have received, that the gospel is true however the church was not mentioned at all. I found it odd until I read the words The Lord Himself spoke in 3 Nephi 16:7 & onwards.
@@alamai7799 that's a very interesting point!
@@alamai7799 what do you mean by that?
Great video! Thank you for sharing this! The ending was so great
I was impressed by the first five minutes. Some points did seem to minimize a long list of significant issues, but overall well done. THE LAST MINUTE WAS DYNAMITE. Directly attacking the main cause for most of the pain around faith crisis - and pretty much everything else. Do we all have it within us to believe and act on that last minute? Worth listening to again. It reminded me very much of what was most important to Jesus: Love others as yourself (as you have done to the least you have done to me). TREMENDOUS! That's God's will done on earth stuff right there!
Thank you!
Yes! I totaly think so too
Christ’s purpose was to bring believers to God through faith in Him alone as Saviour. To love God and live His will .
@@RoanPretorius-de7xv What did Jesus emphasize MOST in the synoptic Gospels? What was his response when people asked "What is the greatest law", and "How do I have Eternal Life". What were the parables about? Your idea of Jesus purpose seems rather vague. Does it put what Jesus emphasized first, first? or does it put beliefs ABOUT Jesus over teachings OF Jesus?
I was borderline entering a faith crisis when I found you guys. The Faith and Beliefs playlist not only helped me avoid a crisis, it helped build my testimony even stronger. Now when looking back at the CES Letter, I can confidently go through each claim and break it down myself. It’s really not a strong document once you see the full picture. Thank you guys for doing what you do.
This is cool right here. Thanks Jorge for continually seeking to learn.
@
@ Jorge Rojas - so you read the CES letter and it presented itself as a reliable document portraying the church in negative light … then you watch this channel who does that exact same thing but in a pro-church manner.
They are both presenting the information in their own favor. Seems like you’re looking at secondary sources to arrive at truth. I am assuming this obviously and I don’t mean to criticize you. Sorry if I offended you.
Instead, I challenge you to look at original sources for yourself … not what Saints unscripted says, nor Jeremy Runnels. Instead you look at the data and come to your own conclusion.
When I finally stopped listening to the back and forth from both sides, I found that the Book of Mormon cannot be true no matter how badly I wanted it to be true. I found that Joseph was not a trust-worthy man no matter how badly I wanted to believe he was a godly man.
That was just my experience and as this video said … some look at the same info and walk away with a stronger faith. I just don’t understand how LDS members can escape the clear cut evidence against the Book of Mormon, other scriptures, Joseph, and the churches history.
@@zmig7793 Well a lot of it is being flexible and changing your beliefs when you find new evidence. Most people's testimonies are built on their spiritual experiences and not historical records. If you have such a "clear cut" evidence would you mind sharing it?
@@non-euclideananalysis7061
This guy gets it, people trying to fiGuRe oUt thE TruTh are just looking for excuses or are nit picky, shortsighted and narrow focused which causes them to wonder off as if there is something better than being eternally with family & taught the best way of life.
I've personally never understood the absolute fascination some people have with the CES letter. I suppose it's a good reader's digest version of the best arguments against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My biggest complaint with the letter is just that. It only lists supposed problems and never touches most of the best truth claims of the Church and try to explain those away. It therefore only presents half the argument. It's like if you only had a prosecutor in a court case. I suppse though that's the job of believing Latter-day Saints to provide our own rebuttles and argyments. However, the CES Letter depicts itself as fair and balanced. It simply isn't. It's a very biased attack. I hope those that are honest in heart, even critics, can at least recognize that. I'd encourage honest seekers to explore the other half of the argument. God bless.
I’ve read it a few times, doesn’t shake my faith in the slightest, the idea can honestly be applied to any religion and their claims.
Ex Mormon now Born Again Christian God opened my eyes to the word. I’m so grateful for that and hold no anger or hate for the Mormon people. They are very Christlike people. When I realized there was nothing I can do to earn my way to heaven and it is by his grace that we are saved everything changed for me
BOB... AMEN!
I'm glad now you know God even the simplest least sense unlike more on his lips so auntie auntie God and so many ways even the loose sense
Bob who said we “earned” our way to heaven. This is a truth which has been twisted. For the best possible explanation of our belief is a talk called “His grace is sufficient “ by Brad Wilcox. It is an amazing talk and deals with that exact question about what we believe about being saved by grace. Please watch and please let me know your thoughts about it??
@@Johnno-vi4pl definitely agree with this. No one has ever suggested that Heaven is earned. And that talk by Brad Wilcox is an excellent example of what we actually believe. I think one challenge that many ex or anti mormons have is that they are fighting against doctrines we have actually never believed.
From one dark room to another dark room…sigh
I love the part at 5:00 talking about loving those who leave the faith. Amen
Good video. Very honest, and best message I’ve seen you have at the end. 👍
@ Joshua Kelley - you mean a little more honest …. Still deceptive. But much better tone
@@mikkifrompreston4396 - yes from all I have gathered over the last 22 years … I finally came to grips with the fact that the LDS church is all one big fat con. It started as a fraud and the leaders today still perpetuate the fraud. I feel sorry for the all the good honest everyday Mormons who have been indoctrinated and can’t see through the lies.
Thank you for being a Podcast I can trust!
This video is EVERYTHING! David, thank you for the reminder that people leave the church for all sorts of reasons and we should continue to love them - not mock them.
Amen, and amen!
And I want to honor the members already loving those who leave. And I want to honor those who leave who are already loving members. Many are doing it right on both sides. But the ones who aren't doing it right on both sides are very loud, and create such tremendous unnecessary suffering. Pray for more good.
Everything that I’m thankful experience shortly after I became a member. A family leave the church and the ward ask us to not change our behavior to them to accept the decision and continue to love them.
This was important for me, as it was just a continued step to prove the church is not a cult.
Nevertheless I know that especially in the Utah bubble people have different experiences and i don’t like that.
Ya, thats what the people in the great spacious building do(not trying to put labels on people)
I read through the entirety of the CES Letter, but it was via a reply made to the CES Letter from a faithful member. Each line of the CES letter was presented in its entirety, but was immediately accompanied by a response. Reading it in this way helped me realize that there are intelligent, faithful responses to each of the points raised in the letter, and greatly increased my testimony. Had I read the CES letter first without the response, I might have felt overwhelmed with the sheer volume of it, not having a ready answer for many of the points raised.
do you have a link, copy, document, or whatever of that response that accompanied the CES letter you had? I am a member of the Church and love finding helpful and insightful responses and different perspectives, especially with reference to things that are critical to my Faith and would love that resource if it is public and/or you are willing to share. Cheers!
Please share with us where we can find this
This is a great video/source to respond to those people who sadly have left and leaving the church because they were captured by the CES letter.
I think that you missed the point of the video. If you believe that people are "captured by the CES letter", do you also accept that people can be "captured by missionaries"? Let's give people (both in and outside the church) a little more credit for their life choices.
@@scottvance74 You are proving yourself that you are captured by the CES letter. My point with the video is that there are people who are captured by truth which is good. And there are people who are captured by lies or wickedness; deceived by the master of deceiver which is sad and bad.
@@randybiador For what it's worth, I have left the church (a decade prior to the CES letter) and I hate the CES letter. It's a piece of propaganda, carefully crafted to persuade without discussing nuance or context. That said, missionary lessons are propaganda and the church has been publishing propaganda and lies since 1830. Two wrongs don't make a right. Not sure how this "proves" that I am "captured by the CES letter". Good grief.
@@scottvance74 Oh I see. I am sorry that you left the church because of your belief that the church had lied and that the missionary work is propaganda. Well, I am a returned missionary, a living testament that missisonary work is indeed a work of the Lord. There ia no other plain message on earth you could hear than the message of the missionary work. Its truthfulness is plain and eternal.
@@randybiador I am a returned missionary too. Although I was disturbed by the lies taught to me by the church, I was more upset that they put me in a situation where I lied to others on their behalf. That's what really bites. They stole my integrity.
I find it interesting that when I was going through my own faith crisis, I did something similar - I had questions about the church and of its history that I wanted answered, but the more I searched for those answers, the more questions I found. I started making a list in an open ended Word document on my work computer. Sometimes I would find answers, but more often than not, I couldn't find a single answer that didn't have the blanket of, "Just pray about it" attached to it somehow. My Word document of questions became a detailed 25 page ongoing description of what I have since called, My Faith Crisis.
The fact that the church "never got around to it" is even worse.
The ski resorts in hell must be open. This is a good, well reasoned, honest, balanced, and respectful video. As much as it pains me to say... I now like at least one Saints Unscripted video.
Love your channel! ☀️
Very well made! I respect you for your respect. Wish there were more people like you.
I appreciate your reminder for us to love one another. After all, isn’t that what the gospel of Jesus Christ is about? For me, I’ve seen, studied, and experienced enough since becoming a member at age 20 in 1970 to know that I am happy to stay. I am also happy that I have family and friends of many faiths and creeds. We are all God’s children.
Unfortunately, my parents just read through this about 6 months ago and have completely left the church over it. Names removed and everything.
I am so sorry. I read the CES letter and was disturbed also but had made my peace with church history years ago when I was an exmormon. I am now active in the church. I think your parents need to watch Mormon stories interview of John Bennett. He did a rebuttal of the CES letter. It was well received. It might help them if they had a mormon take on the CES letter because there are a few false things in the CES letter.
@A Laputa My mother left the church because of church history. She had to go on that journey. I didnt have to but she wanted me too because she hated I was happy. I had to set rules for myself so I wouldn't feel abused. When she talks about the church I change the topic. If she wants to continue on and on I leave and visit her some other day. She has caught on and now stops bashing. When I was an exmormon my kids remained in the church. I learned from my mom how cruel it is to bash. So I kept my mouth shut around them and went to a therapist. Yes! Therapists see therapists also. LOL
@A Laputa I disagree - it has EVERYTHING to do with the church. Clearly this was a big decision for your family. Leaving behind all of the promises of eternal life together, the blessings of the temple, the safety of the church community… that is not an easy decision. They must have found things fundamentally so wrong that they had no choice but to leave.
Sorry to hear.
Sorry man. It's a real shame. Especially when people read it and don't bother to read the rebuttals.
I at one time was considering joining the LDS church but have decided not to after the receiving and considering new information (not from the CES letter)
Any time you are told not to read something or watch something or learn something by someone, it should serve as a big red flag that the information you are being denied is useful or important.
Don't let anyone (or any organization) do your thinking for you.
Absolutely. The truth will withstand any tests. Withholding information or discouraging learning is a tactic used by groups or individuals seeking power or attempting to maintain power in order to keep people from finding out things that could jeopardize their membership in an organization.
Thanks for sharing.
Big mistake....HUGE! 👠📿💄🛍💃
@@six1nyne Which is the mistake? Joining up or deciding not to join...?
@@RickTheGeek it was a pretty woman quote do u bro what were u told to avoid? What was the information u received?
I almost didn't watch this but I'm so glad I did. My favorite video ever from Saints Unscripted. Great job and thank you!
I totally respect those who decide not to believe in the church but I feel bad for anyone who is compelled by hatred, anger or resentment towards the church as a whole. Things like the CES letter can cast a deceptive darkness over such a good, wholesome organization.
@ Adam Black - does the CES letter cast darkness over the church? Or do the facts contained in the letter cast darkness?
If you were a dishonest adulterer. Would me writing about your affairs cast darkness over your reputation, or would your acts of infidelity cast darkness?
@@zmig7793 based on your other comment we’re not that different.
Even if the CES letter is 100% accurate in its criticism do you feel like that makes the church today an “adulterer”? I wouldn’t follow but I also wouldn’t be threatened. I think it’s a stretch to imagine the conferences, meetings, leaders, magazines, etc. are wolves in sheep’s clothing.
@@adamb7230 - I’m not totally following but I’ll try to respond. Yes if the CES letter is 100% accurate, then yes it would mean that the church is not true. I wouldn’t call the church an adulterer as I was just using it as an example.
I’m glad you wouldn’t follow, but would you be threatened? Only maybe if you were a Christian. If you become agnostic or atheist after leaving the church, then you probably have nothing to fear.
Christians are threatened because the LDS church has hijacked their religion and present it as something completely different than that of biblical Christianity
As far as wolves in sheep clothing … I do believe the leaders of the church are wolves because they are the ones deceiving. But 99.9% of its members are honest hard-working good people who are simply raised to conform into the image the church wants. They are mostly unaware.
For me and many others, the CES letter lifted a blanket of darkness and revealed the truth the church never put in general conference, teaching manuals, etc.
The anger we feel at being lied to is a stage of grief. Having grief shows that we really truly cared about the church and the gospel. I'm glad this letter showed me what no leader, apostle, or prophet ever would.
Think about why you almost "didn't watch". It's something called cognitive dissonance and it's quite uncomfortable, but those who can tolerate the discomfort have their eyes opened to truths.
Harder than breaking the bands of pornographic addiction, or addiction to alcohol or other substances is to comply with the command to love all people. THAT is what is very hard for me to do.
Understandably so. I am certain it's a difficult thing for many. However I admire your openness about such a weakness. The scriptures teach as we are humble and strive to follow the Lord, He will make weak things become our strengths! You got this!
Great video, David and team!
As an active member, I love this video :))
@@krismurphy7711 I have read the CES Letter. I have also already been informed on those topics, both in Seminary and on my own time. I have prayed about it, and I continue to have a strong testimony as a teen in the church.
@@krismurphy7711 I’m sorry for the experience you had. I believe it’s important to be informed, and I’m grateful to my parents and the leaders in my life that made sure I was.
@@krismurphy7711 they tell the same story, just emphasize different parts. Humans are imperfect, and as a writer I know you never write something the same twice
@@krismurphy7711 Have you checked out the Jim Bennett response? It is more likely the problem was in your specific Ward than with Salt Lake. Some teachers have perpetuated mistaken theories and beliefs, but that does not mean the Church as a whole does. What does tell it correctly even mean? There is only one way to honestly share an important experience? Have you ever told a story about your childhood only to have a parent say, "That happened when you were in middle school not elementary." or otherwise find you got minor details about your own life experience confused? That isn't how human memory works. Telling the same story with no changes is one of the surest signs of a lie.
@@brettmajeske3525 “Human memory”??? I thought we were talking about a Prophet of God? Telling the Story of the Beginning of the Restoration of Christ’s Church, the Savior of the World??? If so, that history is not some retelling of a childhood playground moment. I would expect
Christ to “help” His Prophet, Restorer, get The Story right, first time, every time.
Well done for describing the CES Letter in an honest and balanced way. One thing about the CES Letter I would like to add: it was ABSOLUTELY critical in forcing the Church to be open about these things. Pre-CES Letter, the Church hid and denied many of these troubling things (I'm looking at you, seer stone). Post CES Letter, the Church now openly publishes essays and videos trying to explain away these things. The thing that infuriates me, though, is when they act like they ALWAYS were open about these troubling things. Not so. Wanna make a test? Go and read the self published LDS history book "Our Heritage" (1997) and compare it to Saints (2019) and see the difference in what the Church was willing to say about early events in Church history pre vs post CES Letter.
They still hide Fix-It ton of other things and I never been part of the moron cult and glad I never was just like I never was part of the JW cult either.
Just this year their fraudulent president Russell M Nelson look inside a hat triplicate the satanic fraud of Smith's forging origin of the bom.
If they weren't always open about it, then how did I know most of the info 30 years ago? It surprises me how many claim they never knew.
Thank you for addressing this issue. I also appreciate that you brought up how while the letter started as a question to increased enlightenment, it eventually led to complaining negatively about it. And with this negative attitude, it's sadly no surprise that Johnathan has also chosen to be critical of other Christian denominations and believing his own doubts.
I appreciate that just because you read the letter doesn't mean you need to loose your testimony. You can be informed about the issues and learn to be a better Deciple of Jesus Christ.
Just make sure when you're researching the CES Letter, that you Also give an equal point of view to what the Church officially teaches. This way, you can have a balanced view of things that can help you fully navigate through these addressed set of issues.
Thank you for providing resources for further study! I'd love to check out more about these topics and videos.
I also appreciate it that you want people to be respectful towards one another. It's important to be kind and loving to everyone, like Jesus Christ taught. 😊❤️🕊️
5:00. You knocked it out of the park! Leaders of all religious institutions need to have the same attitude
Thank you for this! I have recently done a deep dive into the anti-LDS claims and I find myself feeling like I have a more informed faith and actually have a stronger testimony because of it. But I know this is not the case for many.
One fantastic resource I have found in addition to the faith and beliefs series is the LDS Truth Claims lectures. Brett addresses essentially all of the anti-LDS claims out there, and I found it extremely interesting and informative. It’s definitely a time commitment since there are about 30 hours of lecture, but I found it well with my time and have actually gone back and watched the lectures again.
The 30 hours are worth it.
Researching multiple points of view is good.
I do wonder though if you distinguish between "anti-LDS claims", and simple facts that are not faith promoting.
One of the most troubling things to people while reading the CES Letter goes beyond the issues themselves. The most troubling thing can be discovering something (after exhaustive research) that you ademately denied as "anti-mormon-lies" for decades, was actually true all along. It had been common knowledge within the church that it was false, and the highest leaders were content to leave it that way. Members were accusing outsiders of lying - a lot. False accusations break trust like nothing else, especially within the person who realizes they made them.
So if you would be so kind as to distinguish between "anti-LDS claims" and simple unattractive facts, I would appreciate it.
@@leem3299 One of the problems is that the CES Letter has both. It mixes the "unattractive facts" and "anti-LDS claims" in a way that be difficult to tell apart.
@@leem3299 Thanks for bringing that up, I totally agree that it is important to distinguish between the two.
There are absolutely things that (in my opinion at least) church leadership could have and should have handled a lot better than they did. One of the things I love about the LDS truth claims series is that he talks openly about the mistakes made throughout church history, and he even has a whole lecture dedicated to the fallibility of church leadership.
It seems like up until recently (and even now to an extent) the mindset was to not even talk about controversial church history, things like polygamy, black members and the priesthood, etc. And I don’t think that this was or is the best way to handle such things. The good news is I feel like the church is making some progress here. The “Saints” series is a great start to being more open about many of these controversial topics.
I do think that the church leadership is often in a bit of a difficult place - their primary focus seems to be the here and now and inviting the world to come unto Christ rather than address issues of the past. It seems that usually an issue has to really gain a lot of attention at once for the church to release a statement on it. I suppose whether or not this is the correct way of going about things is up to personal opinion.
I think we as members of the church need to be better at doing our due diligence to find out the facts, even the tough ones that are hard to swallow, and prevent the spread of misinformation. That said, in my research I’ve found that the anti-LDS crowd could also generally do a lot better job of sticking to the facts too.
In any case, thanks for your comment and for bringing up a very important point.
@@ty16080 I'll give LDS Truth Claims channel a try. I agree former members can do better at sticking to facts as well. And talking about controversial things is uncomfortable.
Personally I think Richard Bushman should be in charge of teaching about controversial things - church wide. I'm a fan. Rough Stone Rolling sparked a lot of faith crisis, but all church members should know at least what's in there.
It's tricky stuff we're talking about. But I have to go back to the last minute of this video. Regardless of history or truth claims or what group we're in, if we can start with mutual respect - the stuff that was said so well in the last minute of this video - the difference is huge.
dang bruh who let this apostle be a youtuber?
I loved this especially the last part. Thank you!
As an "active" but disillusioned member of the church I have to give major kudos for what you said at 4:56 to the end of the video. Apologists and critics can be VERY toxic. Thank you for taking the high road and being authentic. I wish all who engage in these discussions did the same.
@@krismurphy7711 I'm not disagreeing with that brother. Just highlighting a great exmaple of an apologist who has chosen not to resort to ad hominem or immature "meming" of the opposite side of the debate. Memes are fun and have their place but are not appropriate when trying to engage in constructive dialogue IMO. Many critics of the church (like myself) are no stranger to this behaviour either.
@@krismurphy7711 Sorry I don't understand what you are saying or what you are referring to.
@@krismurphy7711 I think those are used well. They're there to add genuine humour to the video rather than being used to belittle anyone or to try make them look stupid. In contrast take a look at kwaku's videos. His use of memes and "bits" comes accross as childish and shows a lack of maturity in crafting a valid argument to support his views IMO. His more recent one depicting violence against John Dehlin and Jeremy Runnels were particularly distateful.
Tired of apologists and church critics and their back and forth opinions and assumptions without any real substance? Now we have a miracle found in the Bible whereby we can verify Joseph Smith mathematically timed thousands of years before he was born in exactly 1830! Yes, completing the timeline of Daniel's famous countdown dream to His kingdom. " Daniel 2 "
I appreciate Jeremy's forward invitation to the reader to further explore primary sources and pro and anti Mormon sources. Sometimes I wish the church would encourage members to read all sources.
I also appreciate this videos acknowledgment that there are good people and happy people inside and outside the church.
Why can’t we just focus on Christ, leave all the silly behind. The lord said don’t look back.
The lord Jesus Christ rules and reigns
I mostly disagree with you. After 25 years away from the Church, I began to investing it again. Obviously, there were pro and anti “sources” for me to consider. Each time I clicked on an anti source, I felt a distinct darkness about it. I came to realize that the Holy Ghost was warning me not to continue. Why? Because those whose objective is to tear down faith in something have contempt for it. And anyone who feels contempt for something cannot be trusted to be honest about that thing. God did not want me entertaining lies and twisted truths. He wanted me to go to HIS “sources,” then learn from Him what was real and what was not.
Yes, we should know the arguments for and against. But we should be very careful in choosing the SOURCES we can trust in order to get those “anti” arguments. Generally speaking, we should steer clear of “anti-Mormon” sources.
@@bkgoulding primary sources are the best.
Ya, what i think is that people are just trying to find there way in life. People could still be doing a good job and then the truth will be revield to them sometime.
The church does recommend we seek truth in all places. At the least, it's at the end of the 13th Article of Faith.
Loved this ❤️
Very well done!
Thanks!
The basic thing at issue, from what I’ve seen and heard of this letter, is the use of the word “testimony”.
It’s being used incorrectly.
It presumes that the facts will back up the testimony without a doubt or question.
As general members of the church, we promote this idea as true. This must change.
A testimony isn’t based on what someone else did with the information or how they saw it. It’s based on how “I” experienced the information.
Did the experiment yield results?
If it did, then “losing” your testimony is more difficult to do. And the more “testimonies” you get (yes, there are many testimonies available and necessary to attain) the more solid your position becomes.
The Testimony is not based on facts. It’s based on experience. And not having an experience doesn’t make a thing false. Sometimes it just takes time.
Taking a little more time and effort to find the diamonds in life will, eventually, reward us with, well… Diamonds! 😁
I agree, after I have been researching church topics in order to find answers for answers for them ( to be able to defend/ prepare against critics) I do not feel like my testimony has grown a lot. I see this stuff now as more interesting stuff, but not something I should invest my life in.
Very well done
brother DAVID SNELL, I love you my friend in christ. You always present two sides of the same or one coin. I totally enjoy our personal contacts and comunications. Your such a good man and go to such efforts to present clear and coherent views on matters that can only lead others to be more christ like and loving. proud of your Brother Snell...Your friend in perth western australia....
I love your summation. Right on with my beliefs!
I like your point at the end ...if only a majority of people thought that way. Ive never experienced happiness arguing and fighting.
I read the full CES Letter and it didn't really shake my faith. Most of it is either lacking relevant information or it's false (like the names of the towns surrounding Joseph Smith, most of which didn't exist until after the Book of Mormon's publication). If you're having a faith crisis, look into all those excellent resources mentioned in the video. The Encyclopedia of Mormonism I feel was an excellent source. And the Saints books are simply fantastic. They don't skip by complicated history but add important context that makes it easy to understand.
Even after looking at the context surrounding Joseph’s life, I am somewhat confident that Mormonism, and current religions, will eventually dwindle into non-existence as humans look to more logical and reasonable approaches to explaining the world/universe around us.
The CES letter is a list of questions. The fact that some questions have satisfactory answers, does not make the questions "false". But yes, where there are proven answers, then the letter should be updated (and often is).
If I were LDS, marrying other men's wives who were faithful shows a lack of character and fruit of the Spirit. I mean sleeping with 14 year old girls while 37 was as creepy then as it is now.. average age was 22 to marry and usually to other men near their same age. Jeremy became an Atheist because the well was poisoned by lds doctrine about what the Bible is supposed to be. Anyone who understands textual criticism will tell you, even famous exchristian critic Bart Ehrman, admits that the Bible is reliable and no doctrines have been changed in any of his scholarly works. Funny how Mormons compare hard parts of the bom to the Bible when they get in trouble then disparage it with a wink other times.
@@harryhenderson2479 To your own peril. Good luck with that.
You're wrong actually all the cities that's clean actually are in fact in his time and in his own backyard did you actually bother to look more than half of the book is already fraudulently forged and is coughing earlier text view of the Hebrews and such and Joseph Spalding's
I'm exmormon but I really like this video
If people who leave the faith but still are followers of Christ outside of the church are they saved
It depends on what you mean by “saved.” God and Christ will forgive the sins of those that repent, so as long as we are repenting of our sins and changing our ways to be more like Christ, then we will be saved from our sins. However, if we want to be able to live with God again and achieve the highest level of eternal happiness, then we must follow all of the commandments and do what is required of us to enter His kingdom (such as ordinances and covenants).
What I love about this gospel is that we are made known that basically nobody is going to hell, so we are saved in that way (unless we commit unforgivable, unpardonable sins). Basically no one will be in Satans grasp. God and Christ have provided with many ways that we can be saved, but we should also be striving to live with God again, which requires more than just faith and repentance
Now they are. Those in the antichrst lucifer cullt are not they are damned to hell outer darkness prisoned in the pits of hell with Satan Smith and Charles tzae Russell the jw founder.
I appreciate this kind of positive view of differences. This life is for me to choose positive, which includes logical thinking, facing reality, see all sides of issues, recognize our own experiences, respect others, love all people, practice the truth taught by Jesus Christ, and choose to be happy.
As an exmo, I appreciate you saying that we didn’t just leave because we wanted to sin. I have done my due diligence in researching the truth claims of the church and can no longer believe, but I still really care for my LDS friends and family (hate the religion, love the religious, I guess? Lol). I still think the church causes tremendous more harm than what good it can produce, but there are absolutely lots of awesome Mormons and non-Mormons alike!
Appreciate the love, however, genuinely how do you think the church causes harm? I believe the church does more healing to the world than cause harm. Think of all the people who have changed their lives from Drugs, Drink. Think about all the humanitarian aid, disaster responses, feeding the poor etc
Harm? Wut?
You haven't researched this, I'd bet. An elementary school math time found right in your Bible that reveals Joseph Smith by a number reaching exactly 1830 when he restored the church. Link UTube video titled (BOA ep 16) by Paul Gregersen to get there
@@vendingdudes hes
I love my Church. How does one denounce their Baptism when they know this Truth? How I don't want to believe this truth. Best people I'd ever met. 😭
I love the church, I love the lord Jesus Christ, I love service, I love Book of Mormon, and know how important these thing are in my life.
then live whats in the book of mormon. IT says jesus is the eternal god none formed before and after him.... He is not our elder brother but GOD.
@@darrylkirky no offence but it kinda seems like you are making quik assumtions about this person
@@darrylkirky What's your point? First, you come off needlessly antagonistic. Second, you suddenly proclaim Jesus is NOT our brother yet do not support your claim. Why even comment?
@@jonathanettinger6970 but you making brother or saying that Jesus is the idolatrous sleep and satanic we will pray God and worship Satan the Beast are we shooting yourself in the foot when you fall asleep next Smith live what you are with his fraudulent luciferian cult
Great job!
Good Job! This was a great video! Thanks.
:)
I feel bad, for young people especially, who's faith tradition becomes a source of pain due to their own lack of knowledge or perspective. Then they jump into another beleif system and find out their new cynical frame disillusions them again. There is a better way to process all of this, and unfortunately something like the CES letter offers trip hazards but no perspective.
“Perspective”??? What kind of lenses does anyone need to look through to get the truth? Truth is 20-20. Easy to see. Hard to cover up.
@@kristianmurphy4308 Tell that to QANON.
Agreed. Wish those who leave the church could leave the church alone.
That's a fair request. It is equally fair to ask the church to leave everyone else alone (i.e. stop all missionary programs, paid CZcams channels like this one, etc).
Most do exactly that. Others are more of the mindset to seek truth and share it boldly. Jeremy is in the latter category. Is he perfect at sticking to facts and not sharing strong feelings, no. But who is? From my research, most of the long-standing concerns in the CES Letter are legitimate. I'm ok with people sharing legitimate concerns after they leave an organization. I'm not ok with people treating each other badly though - which unfortunately happens on both sides of controversial issues. That's why the last minute of this video was so very helpful.
@@scottvance74 This channel is not directly funded or sponsored by the LDS Church. Several hosts have already answered that issue.
@@scottvance74 Spot on bro….just leave the general public alone please.. 👍🏽
@@jayakron3076 You know LDS members read the King James Version of the Bible right?
Wow! I am impressed with the honesty in this video. I have read the CES letter and am a former Mormon myself. I am very familiar with the content and issues of the CES letter and personally agree with the vast majority of Jeremy's points in the letter. While almost everyone will form their own thoughts and views regarding issues, it was very refreshing to see something on the believing side validate and respect those who find themselves disbelieving. Plus, this video does encourage others to look deeper into the issues and become more familiar before forming any definitive perspective - this is also fantastic! I would recommend this video!
Thanks for watching!
Thank you for summing this up so nicely 😎😇🇺🇸💗🐇
Transgender exmo here with a massive amount of wounding surrounding the church, but with a desire to be kind as I work against the aspects I see as harmful. Can I just say, I really appreciate the charitable tone you took here in describing the CES letter and in how you spoke about those of us who have left the church. I have heard people get really nasty about both topics, and who think that those of us who have left are evil mustache-twisting villainous demon spawn. I've even had people within my own family treat me that way after leaving, and not recognize that my intent is the same as it ever was - to be kind and help people find the truth. I can see that same intent in you manifest in this video, and really appreciate it. My hope is that we can all talk to each other sincerely and kindly, and trusting in the sincerity and kindness of the other party. Stay awesome 👍
This is what real mormons are like. Loving, forgiving, and NEVER judging someone based on their beliefs but their actions
I disagree. Mormons are the most judgmental of all. Your faith says all other churches have been influenced by the devil.
@@eric-qi1os well, I’m not a Mormon, I have denounced all religions because they’re all scams to steal money from good people, but Mormonism has values that I think are better than some other religions.
Very helpful for me. Appreciate the research and objectivity!
Fantastic! Wonderful message!
The Lord Bless You, Everyone At Saints Unscripted!!! ✝️👑
Lord curse them. Cuz they say they he Jehovah Father is a man and he is not and proves so and bible says different too as does quran. Don't lie for him David he's a paid luciferian intiate shill and liar in broad day light and side stepper.
Fantastic video! I read the CES letter the other day and it did nothing to make me want to leave. I always look at the fruits of what this lifestyle does for me and my family. There is soooo much misinformation or half truths on everything this day and age. We need to realize this and take it all with a grain of salt. Even if someone said they had proof that JS was a horse thief it would not sway me. Look at what lies are spread about politicians or people around you. You really don’t know until you ask them. That is why I love the fruits approach for me in my life. Information can be a lot of bias and opinions. We have to be careful.
Really! Basically you ignored the parts that made u uncomfortable like holding your breath underwater until you needed air.. u held it long enough just so you could tell yourself I survived the CES letter
@@slytheguy6761 The CES letter has been debunked and is misrepresentative and full of half truths.
@@jamesnielsen1220 such as???
@@jamesnielsen1220 I disagree with your representation of the CES letter. It is far from debunked. At best, some portions are difficult to substantiate because there is very little hard evidence other than circumstantial. For a church that claims to have the whole truth, like the claim of being the only church to possess every piece of a broken mirror, even a single question / point in the CES letter being true would cast doubt on the entire organization. This was even stated by more than one church president. A "half-truth" in this case would be a whole scandal.
Name just two things that that piece of crap CES Letter presents that proves the church is untrue.
Awesome video. Thanks for making Dave.
Great summary! Excellent!
You actually did a good job representing the other side. I applaud you for that. For real, that's cool man.
I will say though (on a slightly different note) is that it's really only because of the CES Letter that the church leaders came out with the information that has been released. It is well documented that they were trying to bury this info for a long time (or misrepresent it to make it look better). You can like or hate Jeremy but he as done a great service to the truth, objectively speaking
And where is this well documentation? The only person misrepresenting facts seems to be Jeremy Runnells
@@scottcox503
The letter gives detailed references. Jeremy really does a thorough job of that It is an impressive document with powerful arguments.
Is it worth reading? That is left up to the individual. Word to the wise: Be careful of what leaf you overturn, sometimes the things hiding in the shadows are too ugly to forget easily.
@@mhelm421 you seem to imply I have not read it the ces letter. quite the contrary. I read it before I joined the church. It does not prove its conclusions, and I would not say it is worth reading because of its extreme biases and spins. I was asking where it is well documented that the church was trying to bury any information.
@@scottcox503 first hand witness. It may have been out there in the world to find but, the few who were talking about it were considered liars and apostates for even daring to say such things. If you were to go back to the 70s, 80s you would be hard pressed to find anyone in the church openly talking about these things. Certainly no GAs we're having open public discussions about any of these topics.
I only recently started researching these things as faithful friends (extremely intelligent and well-respected friends) started to question and leave. More power to you if you can know all of the church past and still feel that it is God's one and only true church on the earth. I keep reading, listening and praying but...
@@mhelm421 its true that the church is way different than it was in the 70s, and the things being said today may have gotten you disfellowshipped back then. I think this is mostly just because of new scholarship that has been more thoroughly researched and the dramatic cultural and demographic shifts the country and world has faced. I often wish I could have experienced church culture in the 80s, 60s, 40s, 20s, and so on, and be struck by how different the times were. I think it would be silly to assume that there should be a monoculture frozen in time defining the church and its members' views on doctrine, politics, etc. We choose our own path, and revelation comes according to that. But the church as a whole has always sought after the truth, whatever that may be and wherever that may lead. Personally I think the fact that the Book of Mormon contains ancient Hebrew literary poetic structure (partially described here: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1989/10/research-and-perspectives-hebrew-literary-patterns-in-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng) at a rate consistent with or exceeding Old Testament literature is probably the most compelling evidence for its authenticity. That and perhaps the Hopewell Indians. But of course, a testimony is always as connected to a person as one is connected to the spirit. I appreciate your reply.
I enjoyed the video!
Dave, I must commend you today.
I have seen some of your videos and recently came across your joint videos with the Pastor from Hello Saints.
I am a follower of Christ and I am not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
I have family and friends that are members of that church and I my love for them and people like you has grown so much over the years.
As I am sure you have likely already surmised, upon reading that I am not a member, that I do not agree with the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As a matter of fact, if I am honest, like a mother watching her child play near the edge of a cliff, I am anxious and concerned for those who do. However, that does not change my love for those who do; it intensifies it.
It is within the vein of that point that I wish to commend you today. This is the most mature and straightforward treatment of the CES Letter that I have ever seen come from a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There was no convincing done, no admonishment to steer clear, no mocking, no dismissal. It was simply a offering of the facts, dovetailed by an encouragement for those who would read it to do their research.
I also admired your choice to encourage a behavior that I have seen lived out from members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints very infrequently: Love for those who leave, rather than condemnation and shame. I am aware that many members that treat those who leave in negative ways are often just trying to navigate their own fears and hurt in the situation and I am very familiar with the fact that hurt people...tend to hurt people. We are all flawed and need grace.
The statement you made indicating your viewpoint on the people that leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as one that still affords them the dignity of continuing to be good people, if that's what they are, despite their choice to leave, is one of a maturity level that is less frequently seen, from my perspective, than I wish were the case.
The CES Letter is one of the publications I came across when I married into a family that has many of its members living out their lives in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As a member of that family, I wanted to learn all that I could about their beliefs. I sat with missionaries, read the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price, scoured the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' website, studied many publications put out by the church and by leaders of the church and by scholars and writers who are members of the church. I also dove into history records, journals and many other sources of information. To this day, I continue to study all that I can. Being in a position to make family interactions tighter and more cohesive, I spent the first section of that time studying with the intent of finding the beliefs to hold the truth so that I could join my new family in holding them.
Unfortunately, the opposite took place and I am sad to say that the further I research, the further from the truth Joseph Smith's teachings and those following him seem to get.
That being said, it's the teachings and beliefs that I cannot abide; not the people. It's the effects I've seen the teachings have and how the people fall into treating each other and even themselves that crushes my heart to watch; not the good folks that I believe have sincerely tried to do the right thing, even if the behaviors I can't bear to witness were the result, usually unbeknownst to them.
So, it is from this point of view that I would like to compliment you on showing love and your willingness to address things from a reasonable and mature standpoint. If people genuinely want the truth, you are encouraging them to actively seek it out while setting aside their biases and, perhaps, cultural pressures. That is a beautiful thing.
Whether I agree with your beliefs or not, I agree that you have the same charge by God that I do: to seek out the truth (and thereby coming to know the one and only true and living God) for yourself. I commend you for encouraging others do to just that. I am willing to say that, even if their search leads them into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Like I said before, because I have what I believe is extremely good evidence that the truth is not found there, that would not be my wish for them, but they must figure that out for themselves.
If it is the truth, it cannot be harmed. It was obvious by your video that you believe that the CES Letter does not harm what you hold to be true and I commend you for your confidence in that. I dissagree, but you deserve to hear how well you did with this video, despite my disagreement.
May God bless you, Dave.
This is excellent. Thanks!
Thank you. 3 witnesses, 8 witnesses. nuff said.
Also thank you for reminding people that inactive members and exmormons are not evil people. I think profiting off of other peoples pain is immoral unless you are a therapist trained to help. The exmormons out there profitting are not ethical. How would it feel if you knew John Dehlin bought a new sports car with the money you thought was going to fund his exmormon site?. which goes on. That I frown on. But inactive members and exlds are good people and we as Lds saints wish them happiness.
I can't help it. You accused people of being unethical for accepting money to provide a service you don't see the value of. Might I remind you that the people you accuse are not claiming to speak for God. They are not commanding people to give 10 percent of their income (no matter how poor they are), while sitting on hundreds of billions of dollars of wealth. If you're going to accuse some people of being unethical, maybe you could include others too.
@@leem3299 I thought you said in your last post that you were sitting this out. I am so exhausted from the upset Catholic agnositic chick I don't know if I can go another round... let me eat some more chocolate and give your comments a minute to seek in.
@@mrs.therapist6122 I tried hard to contain myself. But you brought up the money thing more than once. And when accusations start flying against people who have helped me, it makes it really hard to stay quiet.
You don't need to respond. And if you do I'll try even harder to shut up.
@@leem3299 I like John Dehlin. He is smart and puts forth some good questions i also defended him to the church when certain mormon you tubers called him evil. I just don't think he should get paid. I also don't think we should pay a wealthy church 10 percent. Maybe something lesser because it resupplies bishop warehouses. I wrote a book on abuse. Did a survey of abuse websites and found them more harmful then good. Besides they make fun of mormons and that is bigotry. Its my opinion. I was an exmormon and spent time on them. They just made me more pissed off. I didn't make friends on the site. I just learned to hate. It was the worst therapy I got i never learned to forgive because John doesn't offer that. If he did he wouldn't pay his house payment.
@@jayakron3076 i agree with you. I was still a LDS author when I left. And I even wrote LDS books while not active. My sister was so disgusted that I was publishing books. I wasnt publishing doctrinal books... but she truly bought into this notion that you lose your blessings when you leave the church. Nope you don't. God kept blessing me on my inactive journey. I became a better member because of it all. I get how exmormons feel... been there done that.....
I really loved this video. Great Job.
Very, very well done.
So how do you and Kwaku get along when it comes to those who attack the Church viciously. I do get your point that we are to love our enemy. My problem is is not with those who leave the Church I have a problem with the likes of those who call black members stupid, and would have a desire to film porn in the temple
Misinformed
@@johndemetrii809 who is misinformed
@@alatterdaysaintonfire5643 you are
@@truthgiverandfinder3246 you're so funny
@@non-euclideananalysis7061 what is your position are you mormon or christian or what ? Are yiu atheist thus honest about being Godless ? What is your belief or view ?
I never heard of the CES letter. A while back, a friend tried to give me a book called "The God Makers" and I was advised not to read it also. I did anyways but couldn't help but think it was something not quite right. And sure enough a higher up then I wrote I guess a rebuttal and clarified what had been only mistruths and a lot of things taken out of contexts. This smells of something similar. I hope the author of the CES letter one day will wish he hadn't been so misled of the dark force for lack of a better way to say it and comes back. In the mean time, keep the faith and your testimony.
Definitely not the same thing. The CES letter was written by a member seeking answers to the questions they were experiencing which were causing doubts. It's just a list of questions that they felt they never found satisfactory answers to. Not all questions and doubts resonate with everyone. The church has also become much more transparent in recent years.
If you read "the God Makers", be sure to read the faithful rebuttal, "The Truth about the God Makers". It's what saved Jim Bennet's testimony in the 1980s. It refutes that lie about Joseph translating the Book of Mormon with the seer stone. Oh wait. Joseph did use a seer stone. Never mind.
I stumbled into a book I found in a library called : "inside today s Mormonism". I do believe it missed information and it also empower my knowledge because I do my own research on a subject
God has allowed everyone the freedom to choose, but not freedom from the consequences of those choices. Choose wisely for it will affect your eternal progress.
“I almost put this post together a couple years ago, but I was torn. In interviews, Jeremy Runnells comes across as such a nice guy. And yet the very nature of this post calls into question his motives.”
Jeremy claimed he never intends to hurt the Church or its members. Yet, earlier he was already on record stating he didn’t want his kids being brainwashed and had a goal to get others out of the Church. Jeremy’s tone, approach, and stated goals changed.
He is just being Real as he can be and be a human being looking out. We came to Church to do good. That is naturally going to fall into place. IMHO.
I warn everyone about reading the CES letter. If you read it you must watch John Dehlin's Mormon stories podcast interviewing Jim Bennett. He does a rebuttal to the CES letter. I can"t stress how important it is to watch Jim Bennett's rebuttal. If you are going to listen to Jeremy's CES Letter then you have to read it skeptically because he didn't site sources correctly and some was made up. For example the Mormon names of towns around where Joseph grew up. He misleads you in the letter about that. I use to be an exmormon 15 years ago. I can't express how horrible I felt when I lost faith. I went to 30 different religions trying to find a replacement and finally I came home to the Mormon faith. There are so many reasons why but that I will save for some other post. If you have a testimony of the church then stay away from the CES letter unless you watch the rebuttal first.
I would really love to hear why you came back.
I won't say much this time around because our last conversation got deleted by the channel. But if you thought I never responded to your last message, that's why. You're fascinating to talk to.
I don't want your comment to get deleted again. Take care.
@@victoriacrane4696 That would take a book to write. As a therapist I had to take a hard look at the person I was mad at which was Joseph Smith. If the Book of Mormon was not true what could I take away from it. He wrote a book telling us to love God and be kind to people. What was the harm in that? If you take away the church all you have is the message of Joseph and Christ which was love one another. How could I be mad about the message? So it didnt matter if it was true or not. The stories had wisdom and that in the end is what we all seek which is to be a little more wiser and loving. There was way more to why I came back but that soul wrenching eternal truth was a major part.
Thank you so much for posting this. In my opinion the CES letter is meant to overwhelm the reader and cause horrible doubt to ensue. A great resource would be Latter-Day saints q&a for specific answers to questions. Overall it comes down to personal testimony and experiences
@@mrs.therapist6122 My dear sister in christ, I also attend the lds church as a pro-mormon, and my name is not even on record anymore still not yet re-baptised after over 2 decades... I consider myself a CHRISTIAN latter day saint. A christian is someone who accepts 1 corithians 15:1-4 what the gospel declares to be and denying our own filthy rags of rightousness and enter into christ rightousness, thus the enabling power of the holyghost becomes our strength to live obedient... This is the free gift of grace on a whole new level, the finished works of jesus christ apon the cross that covered by his blood atoned for all our sins past present and future repented off. The bible says nothing about repenting of sins but rather repent by changing our minds trusting in the lord that he did the repenting of sins . Tho truly converted christians dont desire to sin but will sin, yet not commit serious sins like murder, hate etc. Yes the loving attributes of genuine latter day saints is a a good thing to embrace as long as we are CHRISTIAN FIRST. Being a good person does not make us christian or believing in christ or the name of the church of jesus christ... It is accepting the gospel or grace and not earning it as that is a mockery to the cross, earning and learning heaven is in no way biblical... It also says in the book of mormon, like the bible that jesus christ is the eternal god and none formed before or after him, yet that was changed by prophets that are above scripture by revelation, yet again latter day saints claim the book of mormon is true.. THEN LIVE IT, jesus christ IS LORD GOD no other FORMED.....The bible says let no man teach you meaning any leader in any church does not have much to teach you at all. Its all about a personal relationship with jesus christ and activate the grace before works as simple as that. Anything beond that is a bonus be it the priesthood authority restored or not. Christ s appostles were not levites and only by law and tradition could levites hold that priesthood.... Therefore latter day saints relegion claims that jesus christ set apart in secret and ordained his 12 non levite appostles the priesthood but totally non biblical and if not true the latter day saint doctrine is another gospel and another angel/messege and 1 galitians says let that man be accursed for accepting another gospel.. (even another jesus for that matter) Focus only on the real jesus, but attend the lds church no problems but avoid the wolfs in sheep clothing that are hypocritical pharisee's judgmental to the core because they do not know the love and true humility of christ, his grace and his teachings. Many follow jesus christ in the latter day saint church to get to heaven rather than go to heaven because they want to follow the lord jesus christ... we cannot buy our way to heaven and be fooled by FEELINGS, warm fuzzies that the bible warned against such bewitching deceptions in the last days, and join a church just because it teaches eternal marrige.. I love the concept of eternal marrige but its totally unbiblical and a gamble to believe its true based on feelings.... I preach the grace before works at church and if god is for me who can be against me. No pharisee self rightous hypocrite has POWER OVER ME. The battle has already been won with the war in heaven. Christ died and he rose again, and we now have the grace before the works. Priesthood without grace activated becomes priestcraft or like witch craft and people put soul curses on each other. Notice all the gossip, back biting slander etc is because they are not at peace nor are they saved....see my utube videos grace changes everything by darryl kirky. (perth western australia.)
Awesome job!!
I'm glad you didn't paint exmormons in a negitive way.
CES letter is a collection of "questions" that Jeremy gathered from Ex mormon sites. So it is not Jeremy's questions only.
We are not a protestant church. We do not claim authority from extrapolating and debating theological treatises from the Bible or any other document. The authority of the Church and the source of its doctrines is divine revelation and visitations from heavenly messengers, etc... If your testimony was gained by academic research, you are relying on the wisdom and flawed paradigms of men; and you will have issues with the CES Letter and other such publications. Conversely, If your testimony was gained through the Holy Spirit and/or the visitation of heavenly beings (John 14:21,23), then no amount of sophistry originating from the logic of mere men will phase you in the slightest (D&C 50:17-25). The purpose of the restored gospel is to bring you to God, not to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or any other man riddled with flaws. So, while you're getting hung up on perceived inconsistencies, you are missing the actual purpose. You may ride the train all the way to your destination or become so offended by every click and clack in the rails that you alight mid-journey.
Your debunked or de ralied because 1 corithians 15"1-4 says how we are saved to have eternal life. Latter day saints have added to the gospel and called it restored gospel, a modern invention indeed but a good one to teach us from kids to grow up self rightous, clean and pure as DEAD MENS BONES.
Would go apply that same philosophy to people that believe in Scientology or would you have them investigate that church. You can't ask different things for members and nonmembers
No liar the "restored"(destroyed) gasspell is work of men dumbass. And ces letter is God Given Truth proven with simple terms. Lucifer has control on you. Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit makes you think for yourself which is what ces letter was employed dummy. You are the problem your culltt is the problem. The gospel never left and satan smith lied and invented his the one one satan antichrist. I wont expect luciferians like yourself to understand on account of all the satanic brainwashing you been programmed into to even blaspheme the holy spirit all that you lack and yet damning yourslef to eternal hellfire. Sad.
@@mrs.therapist6122 both are satanic lucfiernq antichrat cullttta from hell.
The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints belongs to Jesus Christ! Amen.
The Podcaster claims that somethings in the CES letter are patently false. Please list.
HAve you watched the Faith and Beliefs playlist?