I am a Confessional Lutheran watching an Eastern Orthodox icon carver talk with a Roman Catholic Bishop about patterns and meaning in Scripture. Perhaps there is hope yet for the unity of Christ's Church. Long live the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church!
@@NancyCahalanuniversal is an English translation of "catholic" (kata-holos; according to the whole) -- the Lutheran church from Germany had a history of saying "Christian" instead of "catholic" in the Creed until the 20th century. While it's not false to say that the church is christian, it's not what the original wording of the Creed said.
@@NancyCahalan In Greek, "Katholikos," or the English transliteration, catholic, means universal. In the creed, "catholic" means the universal church in uniformity with the apostolic deposit of faith.
Heaven, Earth, We: are a mystical country of patterns, and you can say we are citizens of this country. Genesis is the Leightmotif repeating again and again. Are Bishop Barron and Joathan Pageau offering a universe that is mathematically, fractally the stuff of this Country? Am I right in attempting to connect The Word, His word, all His words, contain, all the patterns and themes? Then it seems it is Fractal. And even if you take an element or word out of order, it still contains everything. Are we a part of the Holographic Universe? John 3:12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" I am only an artist who tends to connect everything with everything, so when I found this truth in the bible: this is Heaven for me.
How beautiful to see an Orthodox speaking with a Catholic bishop with such depth and unity of understanding in an enlightening discussion, gives me hope for the future of the inevitable unity of the east and west. Deo gratias!
Not that surprising, very little separates the Orthodox and Catholics apart from historical animosity, ecclesiology, and linguistic specificity. Unlike the vast majority of "Protestants."
@johnericson7086 I totally agree, my comment was based more on the reality of how the Orthodox on CZcams are extremely anti western, prideful, and condescending.
Amazing conversation. As an Anglican priest I would LOVE to get my hands on Jonathan’s “symbolic world” New Testament commentary. Seriously. Not kidding.
Once I found Jonathan Pageau through Jordan Peterson, I never went back to Jordan Peterson. I love Peterson for promoting Jonathan Pageau who is a true teacher of the Catholic faith.
Notification set. There are millions of things i can watch, listen to and do this afternoon. Without a doubt I will be listening to this conversation. If anyone out there is not aware of Mr. Pageau, I will promise he is worth your attention.
This conversation has potentially altered and changed my life and understanding of just how complex and awesome (hallowed) our faith is. Thank you for bringing me to this channel Jonathan. Very inspiring to dig deeper into the fathers
Man, I am so slow on the uptake! I’ve noticed before what they are talking about, but never so much as after my conversion to Catholicism. It took me 63 years, but hey, better late than never!😅
Thank you both for explaining the typology of the Sacred Scriptures. I can relate to your experiences growing up in the Catholic Church in the 1960s and 1970s. I am a cradle Catholic who lived through the early implementation of Vatican II (which is not the evil infiltration many people say it was), introduction of the birth control bill, and the impact of the sexual Revolution. I saw many Catholics leave the Church and priests and religious abandoned their vocations for the secular world. Lay people joined Pentecostal and Evangelical Churches because they felt they were not being fed by the Catholic Church, and I believe also over divorce and birth control. I think we were all weakly formed Christians and not properly catechized when we were young. I’m only now fully embracing the faith now later in life. This discussion will help others out there who grew up in similar circumstances. God bless you both!
I am a former Baptist led to the Catholic Church by Ignatius of Antioch, Ireneaus of Lyon, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine of Hippo and Cyril of Jerusalem, among others.
Welcome home Brother, and no those guys do not support Orthodoxy despite what some orthobros say. Saint Ambrose taught the Filioque and was Saint Augustine's mentor, who also taught it. Saint Ignatius of Antioch clearly says not as Peter and Paul do I command you...and The Church of Rome holds the presidency in Love. He was martyred in Rome and thus can be seen as a Martyr of the Church of Rome. Saint Ireneaus was a priest in Lyon France, went to Rome during the Time of Pope Eleutherius was bishop of Rome (174-189) to get help from Rome to deal with the Montanist Heresy which had spread there. His statements on the authority of the Church of Rome are crystal clear. On another note, with all the textual variants in Biblical Manuscripts, Saint Irenaeus in Book 3 Chapter 10-5 clearly cites MK 16:19, which is the longer rendition of Mark's Gospel. Thus, we can say that the Greek NT in the West which would be part of the Latin Manuscript Tradition used for 1) the Old Latin Bible and then 2) Saint Jerome's Latin Vulgate, which has the longer rendition of Mark 16: 9-20 supports Saint Irenaeus while born in Smyrna in what is modern Turkey (Eastern Roman empire) in 130 AD but serving as priest and Bishop in France was citing the Greek Manuscripts of the NT that would be part of the Latin Manuscript Tradition vs. the others, such as the Alexandrian (Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus) and Byzantine Text Type which is the basis for Majority Text given the scripts developed then allowed for quicker and more efficient translations of the Sacred Scriptures.
@@matheusmotta1750 If your Bishop and Patriarch came to an agreement to be in communion with Rome again, (whatever the terms may be - neither of us can predict it), would you obey your Church elders?
Thank you so VERY much Bishop Barron for doing this interview. ❤❤❤❤❤ you ironically deepen my husbands Catholic faith and practice and opened my eyes to my need for Orthodoxy (Greek) May one day St-Peter and St-Andrew’s Churches unite all the apostolic successions again. I too am a Quebecker now living in Winnipeg and grew up in this same shadow of the Quiet Revolution (but Catholic charismatic).
I'm following his works, and very fond of his understanding about fairy tales and the bible. Here, watching from Indonesia 🇮🇩 pray for us, Bishop Barron 💖
Was not familiar with Pageau before this, just reading up on him a bit I'm sure this talk finds itself in my life by no accident, thanks for creating these opportunities!
Jonathan is awesome for laying out the patterns of Christendom. And the Symboligy behind it. B-b-but like most Orthodox he has trouble with things like Fatima, Guadeloupe and Purgatory and post shism Catholic Saints in General. There is a goofy childlike side to Christendom Catholicism captures that better than Orthodoxy. Although Catholicism is a very fast wide world with very different views..
Wow. What a fantastic discussion. Thanks, Bishop Barron, for delicately bringing up the Orthodox and Catholic issue of the papacy and thanks to Jonathan for his knowledgeable response of legitimate concerns, such as problems with how the Eastern rite Catholic churches were unfairly treated, and the temptation to pride from centralized authority. Yet you also brought out how the Church as bride needs to be unified to receive her Bridegroom. Also, I appreciate your bringing up how God can bring good out of the disunity as we face attacks on the Church from evil forces. God bless you both.
My two biggest living heroes in the Kingdom 🥹. Praise you Blessed Trinity for the gift of these two men. We thank you and stand in awe of your goodness and love for creating creatures who can see with such light. Thank you Lord for forming them so wonderfully!
Lord Jesus only you can help carry the burdens I face as a single parent. Heavenly Father please provide me with the wisdom to make the right decisions for my children, and the courage to face each day with optimism. Lord because I continue to struggle with providing for my boys both have special needs. Heavenly Father as I struggle to buy groceries and as I struggle to pay rent grant me strength.💕💕
I grew up in rural Ireland. In the 1930s when the people were poor, they built a rather small church up on a hill. In the 1990s, early 2000s people started building their own houses, some of the houses very large and bigger than the Church. People still attend that Church today with the exception of the people who live in the houses that are larger than the Church.
It's interesting to think about how, in a world of billions, individuals can influence how events develop - just through their ideas. Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Pageau (and Bishop Barron) have genuinely changed many lives and the trajectory of the whole world by spending the last few years talking online.
As a cradle Catholic, though one without the most rigorous Bible education, I find myself in awe of the way that Scripture, when taken as a narrative, points forward, to then point backward, to then point all the way forward again. It gives us the template of the Old Testament stories, which prophesy the Messiah and are fulfilled in Him; and that fulfillment, which is grounded in real history, then shows us the perfectly designed nature of the stories and histories that came before, in the most convincing way; and THEN they find their way to us and point to the ways we can interpret the patterns of the Scripture in our modern world. The depth in the construction of the Bible, I'm becoming more certain, might be one of the most powerful proofs for the veracity of all its teachings and tellings.
Greetings from Norway. As a catholic i also feel much less educated in the bible. Very much to learn from protestants knowing well the Bible. I have a story though - a fellow parisher who had converted into Catholicism told me that before as Protestant he talked much about God and now he talked to God..
Protestantism is not a thing. It's a catch all term. I really hate it. Anglicans and confessional Methodists relate far more to Catholics than they do to most Baptists.
How good bishop Barron is at talking with someone who doesn't entirely agrees with him. How well he avoids confrontation, how elegantly he refuses to take offence about the negative comments of his interlocutor and how sincere he is about it!
Great and IMPORTANT interview!!! May I suggest a poem that I was inspired to write more than a dozen years ago. Drawn and Quartered by Mike Rizzio Four chambers, but one purpose, Four Gospels live to tell, A Sacred Heart, so wounded, A lance launched straight from hell. Our brokenness, bloodletting, True Mystics judged insane, King Science, throne ascending, To deaden all our pain. Four riders, on four horses, Steeds rearing for a treat, Our corpse, nears rigor mortis, For Art not Science meet. But wait...a ray of His Glorious Sonshine... One part-sacred theology, One part-mystic sight, One part-true science, One part-creative light. ...and if ever two lungs breathed forth, East-West, air that is sweet, Aloft they'll send His Body, Heartbeat, Heartbeat, Heartbeat.
Do you obey the Bible and submit to any Church elders? Hebrews 13:17 ESV 17 *Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls,* as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. 1 Peter 5:5 ESV 5 *Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders.* Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
@hisservant1129 Understand, but if you (like me, and I fail more than I'd like) would like to be more tryinh not to assume, easy as it is to, God help us 🙏 Let's simply share helpful beautiful words of wisdom links instead perhaps?. Which Bishop Barron podcasts do you love? I'd personally love suggestions as I might have missed a precious one (the algorithms block some I've found so not all enter my feed).
Thank you both for modeling how two “opposed” views or groups can do so in a helpful way and not harm the other. Much like a thumb works with the fingers to grasp, I think your different views are both required to fully grasp the truth of the story we are all in.
I very much appreciate this chat. I love scholars like James Tabor, Bart Ehrman, Dan McClellan, Elaine Pagels, Robyn Walsh, Jason Staples, Justin Sledge; and other doctors and intellectuals like Jordan Peterson, Alex O'Connor, Paulogia, and others. Having said that, I do love what Mr Pageau says early on; that it doesn't have to be either a Fundamentalist or Liberal or academic belief or mode. It doesn't even have to be on any kind of spectrum between those points. I feel the same. I appreciate all the scholarly work going into the texts, but my faith is not dictated by scholarship. Nor is my faith dictated by fundamentalism.
What’s most frustrating with today is the loss of respect for the unknown, mysterious, and possibly the supernatural. The more technologically and material advanced we get, the less we search for the real wonders and questions of life. Love the description of how major cities now have towering business buildings and expensive condos. The path seems to lead to a slow death and overloading of the empty material goods of the world. We connect less and less with people and continue to simply look within ourselves for value instead of looking up to our Creator
@@BrianBenson-rc9muNo. There is a lot of homilies by BBa explaining all the isms, as better known as the high thinkers, like Karl Marx, who everyone recognizes that name. But there are other important thinkers. I will try to find those homilies, so that you will be free from, this gross misunderstanding of Vatican 2. I will do my best to find those videos for you. It is IMPORTANT for me to help you. THESE are videos from Bishop Barron's homilies. Please don't close the door on him, without giving him a chance, that it's not Vatican 2, to blame. I am a new convert, and I have no problem with it. If you want to worship with the Latin mass, it's fine, like Spanish people want to worship in Spanish. It will be a stumbling block to cut off the different languages, like Spanish worshippers, BECAUSE... It has to be in Latin. Jesus spoke Aramian. There is no such scripture that we have to worship in Aramian.
As a Latter-day Saint, my tradition is typically brushed off as heresy. However, as I listen to this discussion about Adam as Priest in Eden, I hear what I have been taught at Church and in our Temples. Thank for this wonderful convo, that is blessing even me. I hope that one day we can all commune and dialogue together as fellow Christians.
I’m a former Latter Day Saint who is now Eastern Orthodox. I invite you to attend a Divine Liturgy at a local parish. There you will see what LDS temples try but in my opinion fail to do: unite heaven and earth at the alter. You should also ask yourself if what happens in LDS temples is a continuation of what was done in the Tabernacle or in Solomon’s temple or if the Divine Liturgy is a closer connection instead. I personally think that if one of the original Apostles where to attend a Divine Liturgy or a temple session, they would be confused by the latter and find true worship in the former. That would have to do with what is a continuation of Old Testament to New Testament revelation and does it carry forward today instead of having Masonic origins which are medieval instead.
Glad you were able to take something away from it! While there are some beautiful aspects of the LDS religion, like the sense of community and dedication to evangelization and charity, respectfully, LDS are not Christians. Having said that, we hope you see the light one day and come to know the true Christ!
I've met many LDS missionary young men. Well raised lads, and I'm sure the young ladies are the same. Denial of the triune nature of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will always be the separator between a Christian and someone who is not. We will not forget the blood of the holy martyrs who fought for and died to protect this truth. You are free to worship as you see fit, but there will never be a compromise on this doctrine.
I will listen to this talk three or four times again. Very inspiring . Always love Bishop Barren and Jonathan for their wonderful work to bring light to the world (and Jordan Peterson)
God bless you bishop Barron for your faithfulness...Dear those who are reading this message, if you are having a hard time, remember that you are not alone and never give up. I wish you good health, success, love and happiness I was homeless, did drugs went into prison, where got to know God. Changed my life. Now have a home, a Husband and a lovely year dauther (Ava), and now I'm favoured, $130K every 4weeks! I can now afford anything and also support God's work and the church....l want to share this miraculous testimony to help my brethren in this trying time's that the devil has flood the world with inflation.
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US and abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
I see more unity and commonality in our thoughts and perspectives here, than previously imagined, relating to right relationship to God and to each other! TY for this enlightening dialog.
13:00 Is it not possible to apply this reasoning to the doctrine of the Trinity? Could we have forgotten about the One that has brought us the light of the sun (Jesus) and began to worship a creature born of women rather than creator? It appears that within mainstream Christianity, worship is often confined to the figure of Jesus, a man, rather than honoring him in a manner that reflects the glory of God the Father. BTW, I identify as a Biblical Unitarian Christian.
Attend a Catholic mass, and the trinity is ever present from the first time you perform the cross as you enter, till the last time you perform the cross as you leave. I’m sure it is the same with all of the ancient apostolic churches.
Thank you both! Ive been watching since 2015! Love your works, love the conversation and have learned so much over this past 10 years🌹I am a Catholic who practices both eastern and western rite!🌹
And at the end, speaking of Jonah and the resurrection of Christ, I think of the Sistine Chapel image of Jonah coming out of the "fish" directly over the Last Judgment fresco of the Risen Jesus.
The temple also is a microcosm of the universe. You have water in the pool, you have the outer court as the earth, you have the pillars as the mountains, the inner court as the sky, and the most holy as the space.
The church is the gathering of the faithful. The communion with God and our fellow humans is following God's commandments - Love God (1-4) & Love Your Neighbor as Yourself (5-10). The commandments are God’s Law, natural law, and the anchor of the world. When practiced by all human beings God's commandments are God's path to peace on earth.
I think this is where so many difficulties arise between Protestants and Catholics. Catholics view the Bible as a whole. It contains patterns and types and major overarching themes. One cannot read parts of the Bible and base one's understanding of Judeo-Christianity on those specific parts, or verses or passages. Although individual Scripture passages are important, without an understanding of the Whole, one can be led in all sorts of directions if one focuses mearly on the parts. We can see this in the constant division occuring in Protestantism. We see individuals or groups focusing in on specific passages or words or verses without seeing these passages or words or verses in the grand context of Scripture and God's revelation of Himself and Who He is, and who we are, through it. Mary is one glaring example of this. Catholics look at Mary through the eyes of Scripture as a whole, and through themes and types and patterns, not necessarily through individual verses (although there are obvious Marian passages). Luke clearly sees Mary as the 'Ark of the New Covenant'. Much of Marian doctrine comes from this understanding of Mary, and of her as being 'the New Eve' and the 'Queen Mother' of the Davidic Kingdom, who was given a throne next to the King. In understanding Mary as the 'type' of the Ark of the Covenant, as the Davidic 'Queen Mother', as the 'New Eve', we come to a fuller understanding of Mary, but more importantly of her Son.
Its intersesting how Pageau didn't mention the rise of Quebec nationalism coinciding with the quiet revolution and the rise of fanatical language laws imposed on the English community in Quebec. Considering Pageau's background as an icon artist its a shame he's not Catholic. So much beauty in his own Catholic heritage in churches, saints like brother Andre and Jean Brebeouf who also wrote Canada's oldest Christmas Carol the Huron Carol, great missionaries like Father Lacomb and Eugene Manzenod who founded the Oblate order as well stories like the flying canoe.
Wow. Just invision each Apostolic Church as retaining the Character of their founding Patron Saints. Peter, Paul, Andrew, Thomas etc.; How they act towards Jesus during his Passion and after his death. The first schisim was when the Apostles fell asleep and then abandoned our Lord in the garden. Peter will deny Jesus. But Mary will remain with him.
As a painter and musician I see: the structure of Music as having many elements that cohere the composition, each has a definition that is universal: elements like colour, rhythm, form. And there are intervals of sound that live in a harmonic scale that are sometimes dissonant, consonant. When the tension in the music becomes great, for example the progression comes to a diminished 7th chord the composer creates a chord creating a consolation. This is like our breath. This is the "cadence". It is like our breath. I wonder if discovering all these meaningful truths and patterns in art, history, Genesis, and all the stories in the bible containing "types". I'm only an artist thinking out loud, not a theologian. But I suppose not much of this is obvious in our pragmatic world. Pragmatism is a good philosophy. But I think it also must contain these elements to seem right to people. Many people know the truth when they hear it. but may become distracted by the tyranny of the empirical. Music, math the bible; all involve math at their core.
Isn't it weird. I'm also a musician and I think about this a lot. The idea that there are patterns in music which the composer didn't even necessarily intend, but they're there none the less. Like someone can just improvise all the parts of a piece, and yet we can retroactively identify the patterns of those parts and their relationships as "theory" even if the composer was unaware of all those patterns. They can't be avoided, like they're things out there that we discover. Also just how applicable some of those patterns are, when they really shouldn't be. Like intervals are particular, we can break them down to frequencies and ratios which can be measured, and people can obviously hear theses intervals. But then you have something like "shapes" which aren't particular intervals-- "shapes" are things like "this melody jumps up, and then comes down step-wise then jumps back up" That tells you nothing *particular* about the frequencies or the intervals (which are themselves a level above the frequencies), only the rough "shape" of the melody. And yet, you can hear these shapes. You can hear them even if you don't know anything about music theory. To me that doesn't make sense, it's like saying you could do math without the particular integers, numerators, etc... and then I could look at your math and intuit whether it's true or not. There has to be a higher organizing principle. It's so obvious in music.
I love Jonathan, and I agree that the Orthodox are a necessary check against the Pope. But how are we going to fix things while the Orthodox remain separated with us? Luther tried to reform the Church from the outside, look at how that turned out for him and the Protestant schism offshoots. Unfortunately, everyone who objects to the Pope at some fundamental level, deep down, has difficulty accepting that Jesus would put a single fallible person as the visible head of the Church, and that God's grace protects this person from teaching error.
Repentance, of course. Catholics can repent without the Orthodox in communion. The Orthodox reject the papacy on the terms of V1 and refuse to follow any individual pope into heresy. They don’t seem to be reformers, but preservers. This isn’t necessarily perfect either, but it does keep things in check as Pageau said. Simply put, the pope can’t be above the church or above Christ. To do so, is grave heresy.
I am a Confessional Lutheran watching an Eastern Orthodox icon carver talk with a Roman Catholic Bishop about patterns and meaning in Scripture. Perhaps there is hope yet for the unity of Christ's Church. Long live the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church!
Same here (LCMS)
You forgot “universal” in your long live. The form of the Apostle’s Creed I learned said “the one, holy, universal, Christian church”.
@@NancyCahalanuniversal is an English translation of "catholic" (kata-holos; according to the whole) -- the Lutheran church from Germany had a history of saying "Christian" instead of "catholic" in the Creed until the 20th century. While it's not false to say that the church is christian, it's not what the original wording of the Creed said.
@@NancyCahalan In Greek, "Katholikos," or the English transliteration, catholic, means universal. In the creed, "catholic" means the universal church in uniformity with the apostolic deposit of faith.
Heaven, Earth, We: are a mystical country of patterns, and you can say we are citizens of this country. Genesis is the Leightmotif repeating again and again. Are Bishop Barron and Joathan Pageau offering a universe that is mathematically, fractally the stuff of this Country? Am I right in attempting to connect The Word, His word, all His words, contain, all the patterns and themes? Then it seems it is Fractal. And even if you take an element or word out of order, it still contains everything. Are we a part of the Holographic Universe? John 3:12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"
I am only an artist who tends to connect everything with everything, so when I found this truth in the bible: this is Heaven for me.
How beautiful to see an Orthodox speaking with a Catholic bishop with such depth and unity of understanding in an enlightening discussion, gives me hope for the future of the inevitable unity of the east and west. Deo gratias!
Not that surprising, very little separates the Orthodox and Catholics apart from historical animosity, ecclesiology, and linguistic specificity. Unlike the vast majority of "Protestants."
@johnericson7086 I totally agree, my comment was based more on the reality of how the Orthodox on CZcams are extremely anti western, prideful, and condescending.
Is he Orthodox or Evangelical?
@@atlasfeynman1039his orthodox
The only way to real unity is through repentance and dropping away own ideas to those that are real
I found Jonathan through Jordan and I have never looked back. I never bore of his teaching
Me too. And Peter Kreeft and Trent Horn came next for me
Me too. But I wished I understood more than 10% of what he's saying!
Amazing conversation. As an Anglican priest I would LOVE to get my hands on Jonathan’s “symbolic world” New Testament commentary. Seriously. Not kidding.
I can't wait till the Orthodox and Catholics unite again... gonna go so unbelievable hard. Loved this convo 🔥
Ain't gonna happen till Catholics repent. Sorry.
Heavens and earth will rejoice!
It'll be a holy party.
2054?
@@thomasjorge4734 yeah 2054 would be awesome
❤ yes!!
Once I found Jonathan Pageau through Jordan Peterson, I never went back to Jordan Peterson. I love Peterson for promoting Jonathan Pageau who is a true teacher of the Catholic faith.
Isn’t he Orthodox?
Jonathan Pageau is an Orthodox Christian.
@@bethmcmullan7686 Catholic technically means Universal Church so he might be an Orthodox Christian using the term from his pov
He is an Eastern Orthodox. He is not a papist! And has a couple of reservations regarding the actions of the current pope.
@@emanuelephrem4307 I am talking about the OP not Jonathan
As a Protestant, I love this. Grateful for these two. God bless.
God bless you
Notification set. There are millions of things i can watch, listen to and do this afternoon. Without a doubt I will be listening to this conversation. If anyone out there is not aware of Mr. Pageau, I will promise he is worth your attention.
He is fantastic! Such clarity and truth in his revaluation and insight. 🙏🏻✝️❤️
Lord, if it be your will, unite your Church.
It certainly is God's will for us to be united. The question is, are our hearts right for such an event to happen?
I’m 😅 o
@@joshua_wherleyI think at this point in the world is us (whole) versus the world of the devil.
I’m a huge Pageau fan. I love that this conversation is happening. Listening now!!
I love how the bishop and Johnathan engaged in apologetics so conversational. Two masters of typology . So cool!
❤ yes 100% agree
This conversation has potentially altered and changed my life and understanding of just how complex and awesome (hallowed) our faith is. Thank you for bringing me to this channel Jonathan. Very inspiring to dig deeper into the fathers
Man, I am so slow on the uptake! I’ve noticed before what they are talking about, but never so much as after my conversion to Catholicism. It took me 63 years, but hey, better late than never!😅
Welcome home, friend!
Next move : ORTHODOXY!
Thank you both for explaining the typology of the Sacred Scriptures. I can relate to your experiences growing up in the Catholic Church in the 1960s and 1970s. I am a cradle Catholic who lived through the early implementation of Vatican II (which is not the evil infiltration many people say it was), introduction of the birth control bill, and the impact of the sexual Revolution. I saw many Catholics leave the Church and priests and religious abandoned their vocations for the secular world. Lay people joined Pentecostal and Evangelical Churches because they felt they were not being fed by the Catholic Church, and I believe also over divorce and birth control. I think we were all weakly formed Christians and not properly catechized when we were young. I’m only now fully embracing the faith now later in life. This discussion will help others out there who grew up in similar circumstances. God bless you both!
I am a former Baptist led to the Catholic Church by Ignatius of Antioch, Ireneaus of Lyon, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine of Hippo and Cyril of Jerusalem, among others.
Every one of those theologians (except Augustine) should lead you to orthodoxy. None of them would agree with the post Vatican 2 papacy.
Welcome home Brother, and no those guys do not support Orthodoxy despite what some orthobros say. Saint Ambrose taught the Filioque and was Saint Augustine's mentor, who also taught it. Saint Ignatius of Antioch clearly says not as Peter and Paul do I command you...and The Church of Rome holds the presidency in Love. He was martyred in Rome and thus can be seen as a Martyr of the Church of Rome. Saint Ireneaus was a priest in Lyon France, went to Rome during the Time of Pope Eleutherius was bishop of Rome (174-189) to get help from Rome to deal with the Montanist Heresy which had spread there. His statements on the authority of the Church of Rome are crystal clear.
On another note, with all the textual variants in Biblical Manuscripts, Saint Irenaeus in Book 3 Chapter 10-5 clearly cites MK 16:19, which is the longer rendition of Mark's Gospel. Thus, we can say that the Greek NT in the West which would be part of the Latin Manuscript Tradition used for 1) the Old Latin Bible and then 2) Saint Jerome's Latin Vulgate, which has the longer rendition of Mark 16: 9-20 supports Saint Irenaeus while born in Smyrna in what is modern Turkey (Eastern Roman empire) in 130 AD but serving as priest and Bishop in France was citing the Greek Manuscripts of the NT that would be part of the Latin Manuscript Tradition vs. the others, such as the Alexandrian (Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus) and Byzantine Text Type which is the basis for Majority Text given the scripts developed then allowed for quicker and more efficient translations of the Sacred Scriptures.
@@cicerogsuphoesdown7723Saint Augustine of Hippo is an Orthodox Saint and Father.
@@PalermoTrapaniOrthodoxy agrees with Petrine Primacy, but not Petrine Supremacy or Monarchy.
@@matheusmotta1750 If your Bishop and Patriarch came to an agreement to be in communion with Rome again, (whatever the terms may be - neither of us can predict it), would you obey your Church elders?
Imma be honest . I have to watch this one more time
😂 I’m on a third
Well, there’s a lot to unpack and what they’re saying. It doesn’t mean you’re not smart or anything lol
That's good. It means there was enough substance to require multiple visits. Praise God.
This conversation takes my breath away. I'm realizing these connections, of course on a much more elementary level. Blessed are you Lord our God ❤
Thank you so VERY much Bishop Barron for doing this interview. ❤❤❤❤❤ you ironically deepen my husbands Catholic faith and practice and opened my eyes to my need for Orthodoxy (Greek) May one day St-Peter and St-Andrew’s Churches unite all the apostolic successions again.
I too am a Quebecker now living in Winnipeg and grew up in this same shadow of the Quiet Revolution (but Catholic charismatic).
Love, love, love this conversation; Thanks Bishop Baron and Jonathan Pageau. Blessings to you both 🙏🙏📿📿✝✝
I'm following his works, and very fond of his understanding about fairy tales and the bible. Here, watching from Indonesia 🇮🇩 pray for us, Bishop Barron 💖
Prayers prayers prayers for you and the people!!!
"Eschatologically, we have to see a return of the body for the bride to receive the bridegroom." Wow.
Yes, he is correct. I'm Catholic and am equally throwing metaphorical lefts and rights at Catholics and Orthodox who oppose reunification.
This does rather imply that there is no Body at the present time.
Sp beautiful to see an orthodox believer and a catholic bishop in this wonderful conversation. Amen
Was not familiar with Pageau before this, just reading up on him a bit I'm sure this talk finds itself in my life by no accident, thanks for creating these opportunities!
Jonathan is awesome for laying out the patterns of Christendom. And the Symboligy behind it. B-b-but like most Orthodox he has trouble with things like Fatima, Guadeloupe and Purgatory and post shism Catholic Saints in General. There is a goofy childlike side to Christendom Catholicism captures that better than Orthodoxy. Although Catholicism is a very fast wide world with very different views..
Wow. What a fantastic discussion. Thanks, Bishop Barron, for delicately bringing up the Orthodox and Catholic issue of the papacy and thanks to Jonathan for his knowledgeable response of legitimate concerns, such as problems with how the Eastern rite Catholic churches were unfairly treated, and the temptation to pride from centralized authority. Yet you also brought out how the Church as bride needs to be unified to receive her Bridegroom. Also, I appreciate your bringing up how God can bring good out of the disunity as we face attacks on the Church from evil forces. God bless you both.
My two biggest living heroes in the Kingdom 🥹. Praise you Blessed Trinity for the gift of these two men. We thank you and stand in awe of your goodness and love for creating creatures who can see with such light. Thank you Lord for forming them so wonderfully!
Lord Jesus only you can help carry the burdens I face as a single parent. Heavenly Father please provide me with the wisdom to make the right decisions for my children, and the courage to face each day with optimism. Lord because I continue to struggle with providing for my boys both have special needs. Heavenly Father as I struggle to buy groceries and as I struggle to pay rent grant me strength.💕💕
Peterson helped bring me back to Christ and Pageau helped show me Orthodoxy where i can struggle Upward to to give my life to Christ 🙏🏻
I grew up in rural Ireland. In the 1930s when the people were poor, they built a rather small church up on a hill. In the 1990s, early 2000s people started building their own houses, some of the houses very large and bigger than the Church. People still attend that Church today with the exception of the people who live in the houses that are larger than the Church.
Time for christianity to reclaim architecture I think
Please continue this conversation!
Im a Pentecostal watching and loving an Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic discuss God
This is exacltly what i was looking for. The company of these to gentlemens and peace in this fragmented society
I love this. Thank you Bishop Robert Barron and Mr. Jonathan Pageau. God bless you always.
It's interesting to think about how, in a world of billions, individuals can influence how events develop - just through their ideas. Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Pageau (and Bishop Barron) have genuinely changed many lives and the trajectory of the whole world by spending the last few years talking online.
As a cradle Catholic, though one without the most rigorous Bible education, I find myself in awe of the way that Scripture, when taken as a narrative, points forward, to then point backward, to then point all the way forward again. It gives us the template of the Old Testament stories, which prophesy the Messiah and are fulfilled in Him; and that fulfillment, which is grounded in real history, then shows us the perfectly designed nature of the stories and histories that came before, in the most convincing way; and THEN they find their way to us and point to the ways we can interpret the patterns of the Scripture in our modern world. The depth in the construction of the Bible, I'm becoming more certain, might be one of the most powerful proofs for the veracity of all its teachings and tellings.
Wow. A lot to digest. What a wonderful conversation.
Loved it! Thank God for these servants of God!
Greetings from Kuching, Sarawak, Malaysia! 🇲🇾🙏🏻🕊️
What a beautiful conversation. So happy to see you both together with such an obvious shared respect for each other.
I love this conversation. Thank you both so much!
Both of these men are Great gifts to the Faith.
Greetings from Norway. As a catholic i also feel much less educated in the bible. Very much to learn from protestants knowing well the Bible. I have a story though - a fellow parisher who had converted into Catholicism told me that before as Protestant he talked much about God and now he talked to God..
“I m a Catholic not a Protestant, I don’t know where that came from in the Bible. - Fr. Ripperger
Protestantism is not a thing. It's a catch all term. I really hate it. Anglicans and confessional Methodists relate far more to Catholics than they do to most Baptists.
How good bishop Barron is at talking with someone who doesn't entirely agrees with him. How well he avoids confrontation, how elegantly he refuses to take offence about the negative comments of his interlocutor and how sincere he is about it!
Great and IMPORTANT interview!!!
May I suggest a poem that I was inspired to write more than a dozen years ago.
Drawn and Quartered
by Mike Rizzio
Four chambers, but one purpose,
Four Gospels live to tell,
A Sacred Heart, so wounded,
A lance launched straight from hell.
Our brokenness, bloodletting,
True Mystics judged insane,
King Science, throne ascending,
To deaden all our pain.
Four riders, on four horses,
Steeds rearing for a treat,
Our corpse, nears rigor mortis,
For Art not Science meet.
But wait...a ray of His Glorious Sonshine...
One part-sacred theology,
One part-mystic sight,
One part-true science,
One part-creative light.
...and if ever two lungs breathed forth,
East-West, air that is sweet,
Aloft they'll send His Body,
Heartbeat, Heartbeat, Heartbeat.
We have One who gathers and it is JESUS!!!
So why have a pastor?
Amen! I love the way Jonathan explicates this
💀
Do you obey the Bible and submit to any Church elders?
Hebrews 13:17 ESV
17 *Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls,* as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
1 Peter 5:5 ESV
5 *Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders.* Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
So Enjoyable to listen to these two wise men. thank you
This conversation was amazing 🙏. Thank you both so much for posting it
Lord I need you continue to stand by me in Jesus name Amen
Phenomenal conversation. Thank you both!
Two excellent people in conversation. Wonderful!
This was wonderful. Very good to see Bishop Barron having a free flowing conversation instead of beautifully packaged sermons. This was very valuable.
He has done many more, with Jordan Peterson and others. Try a youtube search, you'll enjoy them. Bless you x
You must not watch Bishop Barron very much…
@hisservant1129 Understand, but if you (like me, and I fail more than I'd like) would like to be more tryinh not to assume, easy as it is to, God help us 🙏 Let's simply share helpful beautiful words of wisdom links instead perhaps?. Which Bishop Barron podcasts do you love? I'd personally love suggestions as I might have missed a precious one (the algorithms block some I've found so not all enter my feed).
Big up to Jordan Peterson for introducing the world to Jonathan Pageau. Such an unassuming and humble guy with so much depth
Brilliant. What a joy a collaborative book on this subject would be. Synthesizing the fathers and this conversation.
THANK YOU FOR THIS!!! I’m so blessed
We have such a rich faith.
Thanks be to God for this life enriching conversation!
Oh my goodness, I'm so glad I stumbled on to this!
it has so much to offer for the culture from doctrine and the fathers
the soul glues consciousness to your body
Thank you both for modeling how two “opposed” views or groups can do so in a helpful way and not harm the other. Much like a thumb works with the fingers to grasp, I think your different views are both required to fully grasp the truth of the story we are all in.
Exploring beautiful ideas in a beautiful way. On the front foot 😌. Thank you both 🙏 .
I very much appreciate this chat.
I love scholars like James Tabor, Bart Ehrman, Dan McClellan, Elaine Pagels, Robyn Walsh, Jason Staples, Justin Sledge; and other doctors and intellectuals like Jordan Peterson, Alex O'Connor, Paulogia, and others.
Having said that, I do love what Mr Pageau says early on; that it doesn't have to be either a Fundamentalist or Liberal or academic belief or mode.
It doesn't even have to be on any kind of spectrum between those points.
I feel the same. I appreciate all the scholarly work going into the texts, but my faith is not dictated by scholarship. Nor is my faith dictated by fundamentalism.
Most interesting. Thank you both.
What’s most frustrating with today is the loss of respect for the unknown, mysterious, and possibly the supernatural. The more technologically and material advanced we get, the less we search for the real wonders and questions of life. Love the description of how major cities now have towering business buildings and expensive condos. The path seems to lead to a slow death and overloading of the empty material goods of the world. We connect less and less with people and continue to simply look within ourselves for value instead of looking up to our Creator
This is also the fruits of Vatican 2 and its anti catholic teachings which contributes greatly to the disorder of society.
@@BrianBenson-rc9muNo. There is a lot of homilies by BBa explaining all the isms, as better known as the high thinkers, like Karl Marx, who everyone recognizes that name. But there are other important thinkers. I will try to find those homilies, so that you will be free from, this gross misunderstanding of Vatican 2. I will do my best to find those videos for you. It is IMPORTANT for me to help you. THESE are videos from Bishop Barron's homilies. Please don't close the door on him, without giving him a chance, that it's not Vatican 2, to blame. I am a new convert, and I have no problem with it.
If you want to worship with the Latin mass, it's fine, like Spanish people want to worship in Spanish. It will be a stumbling block to cut off the different languages, like Spanish worshippers, BECAUSE...
It has to be in Latin. Jesus spoke Aramian. There is no such scripture that we have to worship in Aramian.
I love this discussion, done so well. I will have to go through it again.
As a Latter-day Saint, my tradition is typically brushed off as heresy. However, as I listen to this discussion about Adam as Priest in Eden, I hear what I have been taught at Church and in our Temples.
Thank for this wonderful convo, that is blessing even me. I hope that one day we can all commune and dialogue together as fellow Christians.
I’m a former Latter Day Saint who is now Eastern Orthodox. I invite you to attend a Divine Liturgy at a local parish. There you will see what LDS temples try but in my opinion fail to do: unite heaven and earth at the alter. You should also ask yourself if what happens in LDS temples is a continuation of what was done in the Tabernacle or in Solomon’s temple or if the Divine Liturgy is a closer connection instead. I personally think that if one of the original Apostles where to attend a Divine Liturgy or a temple session, they would be confused by the latter and find true worship in the former. That would have to do with what is a continuation of Old Testament to New Testament revelation and does it carry forward today instead of having Masonic origins which are medieval instead.
Glad you were able to take something away from it! While there are some beautiful aspects of the LDS religion, like the sense of community and dedication to evangelization and charity, respectfully, LDS are not Christians. Having said that, we hope you see the light one day and come to know the true Christ!
We disagree on fundamental things but I love the Mormon focus on family and community. Beautiful people.
I've met many LDS missionary young men. Well raised lads, and I'm sure the young ladies are the same.
Denial of the triune nature of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will always be the separator between a Christian and someone who is not. We will not forget the blood of the holy martyrs who fought for and died to protect this truth. You are free to worship as you see fit, but there will never be a compromise on this doctrine.
I will listen to this talk three or four times again. Very inspiring . Always love Bishop Barren and Jonathan for their wonderful work to bring light to the world (and Jordan Peterson)
God bless you bishop Barron for your faithfulness...Dear those who are reading this message, if you are having a hard time, remember that you are not alone and never give up. I wish you good health, success, love and happiness I was homeless, did drugs went into prison, where got to know God. Changed my life. Now have a home, a Husband and a lovely year dauther (Ava), and now I'm favoured, $130K every 4weeks! I can now afford anything and also support God's work and the church....l want to share this miraculous testimony to help my brethren in this trying time's that the devil has flood the world with inflation.
Glory be to our Lord hallelujah
Congratulations
But then, how do you make that happen?
Oh yes! God has shown me mercy
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US and abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
I see more unity and commonality in our thoughts and perspectives here, than previously imagined, relating to right relationship to God and to each other! TY for this enlightening dialog.
13:00 Is it not possible to apply this reasoning to the doctrine of the Trinity? Could we have forgotten about the One that has brought us the light of the sun (Jesus) and began to worship a creature born of women rather than creator? It appears that within mainstream Christianity, worship is often confined to the figure of Jesus, a man, rather than honoring him in a manner that reflects the glory of God the Father. BTW, I identify as a Biblical Unitarian Christian.
Attend a Catholic mass, and the trinity is ever present from the first time you perform the cross as you enter, till the last time you perform the cross as you leave. I’m sure it is the same with all of the ancient apostolic churches.
@@arielwertlen6709 I was raised Catholic.
@@EmJay2022we’ll come back then as we miss you 📿❤️🙏🕊️🌹💐🥰
Assistindo do Brasil 🇧🇷 🙏 Wonderfull talk!
Thank you both! Ive been watching since 2015! Love your works, love the conversation and have learned so much over this past 10 years🌹I am a Catholic who practices both eastern and western rite!🌹
Great interview!!
I love this,- so grateful 🙏
And at the end, speaking of Jonah and the resurrection of Christ, I think of the Sistine Chapel image of Jonah coming out of the "fish" directly over the Last Judgment fresco of the Risen Jesus.
Incredible conversation. Invaluable.
2 brilliant men
Amazing talk. Wish y'all could have done a 2:30 hour podcast.
So cool…. The patterns….ong love it!!
Wonderful conversation! …. Thank you!
Probably not a single word that lacks full attention...💪🧠
God bless Bishop Barron and Jonathan Pageau for this amazing and beautiful talk!
We are living souls living eternally with Christ.
The temple also is a microcosm of the universe. You have water in the pool, you have the outer court as the earth, you have the pillars as the mountains, the inner court as the sky, and the most holy as the space.
The church is the gathering of the faithful. The communion with God and our fellow humans is following God's commandments - Love God (1-4) & Love Your Neighbor as Yourself (5-10). The commandments are God’s Law, natural law, and the anchor of the world. When practiced by all human beings God's commandments are God's path to peace on earth.
Beautifful interview, thank you!❤
Definitely a book is necessary
Peterson’s debates with Harris ended New Atheism. A real spectacle, if you haven’t seen them.
Finally, a level of discussion I can understand.😂
Jordan Peterson makes my head spin. 😅
I think this is where so many difficulties arise between Protestants and Catholics. Catholics view the Bible as a whole. It contains patterns and types and major overarching themes. One cannot read parts of the Bible and base one's understanding of Judeo-Christianity on those specific parts, or verses or passages.
Although individual Scripture passages are important, without an understanding of the Whole, one can be led in all sorts of directions if one focuses mearly on the parts. We can see this in the constant division occuring in Protestantism. We see individuals or groups focusing in on specific passages or words or verses without seeing these passages or words or verses in the grand context of Scripture and God's revelation of Himself and Who He is, and who we are, through it.
Mary is one glaring example of this. Catholics look at Mary through the eyes of Scripture as a whole, and through themes and types and patterns, not necessarily through individual verses (although there are obvious Marian passages). Luke clearly sees Mary as the 'Ark of the New Covenant'. Much of Marian doctrine comes from this understanding of Mary, and of her as being 'the New Eve' and the 'Queen Mother' of the Davidic Kingdom, who was given a throne next to the King. In understanding Mary as the 'type' of the Ark of the Covenant, as the Davidic 'Queen Mother', as the 'New Eve', we come to a fuller understanding of Mary, but more importantly of her Son.
I've been waiting for this for so long, thank you!
Its intersesting how Pageau didn't mention the rise of Quebec nationalism coinciding with the quiet revolution and the rise of fanatical language laws imposed on the English community in Quebec. Considering Pageau's background as an icon artist its a shame he's not Catholic. So much beauty in his own Catholic heritage in churches, saints like brother Andre and Jean Brebeouf who also wrote Canada's oldest Christmas Carol the Huron Carol, great missionaries like Father Lacomb and Eugene Manzenod who founded the Oblate order as well stories like the flying canoe.
These two don't talk enough together!
I knew this interview was going to happen eventually. So excited! 😮
Thank you thank you thank you
He’s awesome
Wow. Just invision each Apostolic Church as retaining the Character of their founding Patron Saints. Peter, Paul, Andrew, Thomas etc.; How they act towards Jesus during his Passion and after his death. The first schisim was when the Apostles fell asleep and then abandoned our Lord in the garden. Peter will deny Jesus. But Mary will remain with him.
As a painter and musician I see: the structure of Music as having many elements that cohere the composition, each has a definition that is universal: elements like colour, rhythm, form. And there are intervals of sound that live in a harmonic scale that are sometimes dissonant, consonant. When the tension in the music becomes great, for example the progression comes to a diminished 7th chord the composer creates a chord creating a consolation. This is like our breath. This is the "cadence". It is like our breath. I wonder if discovering all these meaningful truths and patterns in art, history, Genesis, and all the stories in the bible containing "types". I'm only an artist thinking out loud, not a theologian. But I suppose not much of this is obvious in our pragmatic world. Pragmatism is a good philosophy. But I think it also must contain these elements to seem right to people. Many people know the truth when they hear it. but may become distracted by the tyranny of the empirical. Music, math the bible; all involve math at their core.
Isn't it weird. I'm also a musician and I think about this a lot. The idea that there are patterns in music which the composer didn't even necessarily intend, but they're there none the less. Like someone can just improvise all the parts of a piece, and yet we can retroactively identify the patterns of those parts and their relationships as "theory" even if the composer was unaware of all those patterns. They can't be avoided, like they're things out there that we discover. Also just how applicable some of those patterns are, when they really shouldn't be. Like intervals are particular, we can break them down to frequencies and ratios which can be measured, and people can obviously hear theses intervals. But then you have something like "shapes" which aren't particular intervals-- "shapes" are things like "this melody jumps up, and then comes down step-wise then jumps back up" That tells you nothing *particular* about the frequencies or the intervals (which are themselves a level above the frequencies), only the rough "shape" of the melody. And yet, you can hear these shapes. You can hear them even if you don't know anything about music theory. To me that doesn't make sense, it's like saying you could do math without the particular integers, numerators, etc... and then I could look at your math and intuit whether it's true or not. There has to be a higher organizing principle. It's so obvious in music.
What a wonderful conversation!! Thank you Bishop Barron and Jonathan Pageau!!
Outstanding, outstanding discussion.
I love Jonathan, and I agree that the Orthodox are a necessary check against the Pope. But how are we going to fix things while the Orthodox remain separated with us? Luther tried to reform the Church from the outside, look at how that turned out for him and the Protestant schism offshoots.
Unfortunately, everyone who objects to the Pope at some fundamental level, deep down, has difficulty accepting that Jesus would put a single fallible person as the visible head of the Church, and that God's grace protects this person from teaching error.
Repentance, of course. Catholics can repent without the Orthodox in communion. The Orthodox reject the papacy on the terms of V1 and refuse to follow any individual pope into heresy. They don’t seem to be reformers, but preservers. This isn’t necessarily perfect either, but it does keep things in check as Pageau said. Simply put, the pope can’t be above the church or above Christ. To do so, is grave heresy.
Beautiful talk ❤