Topping A90D Headphone Amp Review & Why The Disconnect Between Measurements & Performance?
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- čas přidán 7. 06. 2024
- Thanks to Apos Audio for the loan of A90D!
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My Reviews of Other Topping Gear:
DX7Pro+:
L30: forum.hifiguides.com/t/toppin...
A50s: forum.hifiguides.com/t/toppin...
A30Pro: • Topping A30 Pro Headph...
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D30Pro: • Topping D30 Pro DAC Re...
D90SE: • Topping D90se DAC Review
My Reviews of Other Mentioned Gear:
Lake People G111mk2: • Lake People G111mk2 He...
Schiit Bifrost 2: • Schiit Bifrost 2/64 DA...
Singxer SU-2: • Singxer SU-2 USB Audio...
Beyerdynamic DT880 600 ohm: • Beyerdynamic DT880 600...
Focal Radiance: • Focal (Bentley) Radian...
JM Audio OCD Extreme: Stealth Edition (HiFiMan HE-R9 mod): • JM Audio OCD Extreme S...
HiFiMan Ananda Stealth Magnet Edition: • HiFiMan Ananda Stealth...
HiFiMan HE6sev2: • HiFiMan HE6se V2 Headp...
HiFiMan HE1000se: • HiFiMan HE1000se Headp...
HiFiMan Susvara: • HiFiMan Susvara - Summ...
Sennheiser HD6XX: • Massdrop + Sennheiser ...
For more about Waves and Wave Superposition, check out Part 2 of my Cables Matter Series: • Cables Matter Part 2: ...
Channel Intro: • Channel Introduction
My Hearing Quirks: • WaveTheory's Hearing Q...
Timestamps..
00:00 Intro & Disclaimers
00:48 Shameless Self Promotion
01:16 Pricing, Specs, Build
12:02 Sound Preface
14:03 Test Gear
16:04 Sound
26:11 Comparison with OG A90
27:23 Comparisons with Competition
28:32 Wrapping Up A90D On its Own
30:37 Thoughts on Measurements vs Performance
Certainly appreciate the honesty in your reviews and this one is not an exception. As long as you speak your mind and keep courage, I will keep watching!!
Finally! Been waiting since the release of the Lake People review. This review released faster than I expected, thanks for the hard work!
Oh wow looking forward to the shoot-out!
What a fantastic review, really enjoyed the section on measurements vs performance.
Your review is the most detailed and extensive of all. I very like your reviews. Thank you!!!
I always appreciate when folks put in the extra effort to communicate their preferences and avoid disparaging people or brands.
Thank you for your honesty!
This was fantastic. Thank you very much for the concision and detail of your reviews generally, and specifically for your explanation at the end of this video.
Amazing explanation. Hats off 🍻
Thank you for your honesty, and for speaking your mind (and not just parotting what everyone else says). Subscribed.
very well done. Great explained!
You nailed it .Congrats .It is the best ever explanation i've heard about music signal .
I wish this amp was end game, would save me so much money :( sine based measurements are a fool's gold
great explanation Really appreciate what you’re doing man
Thank you for your hard work :)
You've made some very good points about Topping as a manufacturer. A couple of additional thoughts: 1) It seems to me as a consumer that they have chosen a marketing path that has them kicking out new products on schedule, with only minor perceivable improvements from old to new. If your Topping DAC has SNR of 121db....wait a year and the model replacing it will be at 123db. So what, I couldn't hear 121 db, I'm certainly not going to notice 123db. 2) Topping is a company that has made some real big design gaffs. They'll put a product like the L30, lots of power, but when it gets to the market it starts blowing up headphones. How about an E30 DAC that has a disclaimer "Topping does not recommend connecting the E30 to the CD player, because the E30 has high requirements on the input of the CD player, and most CD devices will cause music to stutter/ skip". How do you get that wrong, and then mass produce it. That's not bringing quality products to the marketplace, that's just pumping out the merchandise.
I am not sure if what you are saying is correct about Topping I do know a similar arguement can be made about almost all commercially successful consumer tech companies in the world, cue Display Island.
I really love extra effort taken to explain conundrum of topping performance :)
Thank you for your point of view AND your ability to communicate such concepts. You are the best response to the "measurements are all that matter" folks. I am not one of those. I have a tube pre-amp and amp, and an R2R DAC. I suspected what you said about the topping equipment by the things other reviewers were saying about it. Doesn't sound like my cup of tea.
This is probably the most thorough, non-biased review on the Topping A90D out there. It's easy to get distracted by on-paper specifications, but at the end of the day how it sounds is most important. Thanks for the video!
Can't wait to get your take on the Topping A70pro.
I just subscribed. Great channel
I don't want to be a Topping hater... but everything I've tried by Topping didn't impress me be it a DAC or Amp. I got the A90D close to when it first came out. Gave it a few days and it just never grabbed me. Returned it. As far as Chinese Gear goes I would take the SMSL stuff over Topping every time. Get the SH-9 THX AAA Amp for half the price of the A90D. I just got the SMSL SU-9 Pro DAC to stack with the SH-9 Amp for a secondary audio setup for Gaming, Movies/TV and iMac use. It's a great Budget End Game Stack for about $750 for those not looking to wade into deeper much more expensive water's.
What do you think of the su-9 pro so far? How close does it get to your Gustard r26?
@@mtnmankeith9069 SU-9 Pro is excellent. It's not quite on the level of the R26... but if I had to I could definitely live with the SU-9 Pro as my only DAC. I have the SU-9 Pro in a setup with the SH-9 Amp and also to a pair of KRK Monitor Speakers. The SU-9 Pro is connected to my iMac and also to my TV for Gaming and Movies/TV watching. I'd say the SU-9 Pro DAC is every bit as good as the Schiit Bifrost 2/64 at $300 less
I have the smsl d300 to go with my SH-9 amp. My d300 dac optical and coax stopped working. Smsl customer service is terrible. They won’t warrant they’re warranty. So I’m hesitant to buy smsl again. I have a Schiit Modi multibit hooked up right now that work really well. But it would be nice to have a dac with balanced output with at least 5Vrms to take advantage of the SH-9s power.
@@mtnmankeith9069 yeah that can be the horror of dealing with a Chinese company. They can just ignore emails that say the product is defective. Maybe try contacting the place you bought it from? I know Apos has a 2 year warranty on their stuff. But sticking with US companies like Schiit is the best way to go. Maybe the Modius is the answer or Bifrost 2/64 with a 5 year warranty if you have the $$$
Smsl costs less...its also 3x less power
Thanks for this review. Very interesting. Which headphone amp do you think is the best (disregarding cost) ?
I prefer the A90D to the 2000$ Sennheiser HDVA 600...
I watched the whole video and glad I did. Excellent review and information. There's another popular CZcamsr Andrew / Resolve who intensely dislikes the A90 series also. I'd be curious to see you review the dx3 pro plus. For under 200 bucks it looks like a great deal but it may suffer from the same negatives that other topping products have.
Yeah, I would also like to hear WaveTheory's opinion on the DX3 Pro+ if he 'll ever get the chance to make a review about it. Let's hope he does!
Hey man your theory is crazy. And your benchpress is absolutly crazy😂
A great review! I think CZcamsr reviews give it high praise because they know lots of people will use their affiliate link to buy it. Just my opinion.
Conflict of interest is how this is called? 😏
I think most people have a pretty good idea what they are going to buy and where they will buy it from before checking out reviews on youtube, if you think a reviewer is swayed by incentives offered by the product manufacturer, then just take what they say with a pinch of salt, maybe check to see if what they are saying is mirrored by other reviewers, just because a reviewer uses affiliate links does not mean they are lying to you, if so then why are you watching this review? Everyone has different ears and will hear sound differently, what sounds great to one person could sound lacking to another and vice versa. Simply wanting to make money from youtube does not make somebody corrupt.
Great overview of why measurements don't work as a comprehensive determinate of sound quality. It should be said again that YOU said it perfectly. Music listeners have kicked and screamed and thrashed for years over the subject. WELL DONE - Thank you !
I appreciate your honest review, your conclusion does not surprise me, it's a Topping after all.
Spot on
I've been saying this for a couple years now, but nobody can stop the hype train. If this ends up being shared in r/headphones, we're going to see people lose their shit. Anyways, thanks for your honest take -- it's so refreshing to hear this side of the coin.
I appreciate your unvarnished opinion! I also tried several amplifiers and DACs. They had good or excellent measurements, but they had no sound. People are stuck with measurements and don't want to hear anything.
Hey mate can you review the new Topping E70 and L70? Curious to see how they stack up against the D90 and A90D. Thanks
I wonder for detail, holographic experience let's say, imagine and stage, which amp would you recommend if this one is not great on that point?
which internal curve setting did you use to test the a90d?
You should make the entirety of the Measurement vs Performance section into a standalone video for real.
Great review, as always :)
how did a90d perform with the hard to drive planars?
Really good stuff. I've been reading and viewing audio gear reviews, on and off, for 40 years and no one has ever clearly explained to me the enormous gap between the extraordinarily complex phenomena audio gear is intended to reproduce for human ears and the much simpler phenomena it is given to reproduce for measurement machines. You could make your argument even more compelling by adding some sonic illustrations to your very helpful sound wave graphics and physical motion visuals. Some of what you say here began to dawn on me a couple days ago when, prompted by one of your earlier videos and your response to one of my comments on it, I decided to just listen to a sine wave sound sample. It wasn't annoying so much as it just hit me over the head with the contrast between the complex phenomena of musical sound and what gets tracked by measurement rigs.
I have a a A90 and A90D and sound the same as a bunch of other amps I have, I doubt if blind tested I could tell which amp is which however it is by far the cleanest low noise amp and that is what I wanted along with the remote. To make an amp with op-amps is easy to make a discrete one with the same performance is hard and Topping should be commended and the ladder volume is so well done.
@@salut9658 If you are asking what I would do, I have a Topping A90D and RME ADI FS I doubt there is anything better.
So on the input selection I see xlr and preamp so when in preamp mode is the xlr input still active reason why I’m asking example I want to connect denafrips ares dac to a90d via xlr input then connect denafrips thallos power amp via xlr output from a90d i wasn’t sure if that would work I want the dac to be active and be able to control volume on the amp to my passive speakers
I just picked up a good deal on the GSX mini and I’m wondering if you could do a re-review on it as you have one but it’s very old curious if you could take another stab at it 😁
If a reasonable opportunity arises, maybe. I don't think I will seek one out.
@@wavetheorysound I purchased the gsx mini for a good 1300$ to upgrade from my thx789 and it’s on the way! I own an He1000V2/lcd X/hd6xx and I just saw a different thread of you saying the hekV2 is a bad pairing I’m very concerned now 😔ps sorry for not making this comment about the topping a90d 😬 lol
Any amp suggestion if I upgrage from og A90? My headphone is Meze Elite. Thanks
That pool analogy was genuinely terrifying.
First off I am telling the Audio Police about this review. 1st off its 2022. No one even listens to speakers or headphones because there are frequency response and distortion graphs to listen to. 2ndly you are talking about things like soundstage and 3d sound that NOBODY cares about and certainly can’t measure. 3rd off and the biggest NoNo is telling people not to buy a product. This is just not how reviewers should act. 4th you go out of your way to educate listeners. This is just wrong. That said you are one of the best reviewers on youtube and I appreciate your channel. All my gear measures poorly I bet but man it all sounds awesome. Soundstage and imaging is my main listening biases so having someone who actually talks about them is a huge plus!
Another trustworthy review. In your opinion what is the best balanced or single ended Amp Dac combo or stack for around $500-$600? Thanks in advance for any information you can pass on.
For an AIO I think the HiFiMan EF400 is hard to beat. There are not a ton of SE-only options in that price range, unfortunately, although the JDS Labs Element III is likely solid (haven't heard it to confirm). For a stack the Schiit Modius e + Jotunheim 2 is likely very good. I've reviewed the original Modius and the Jot2 and thought they were both solid.
@@wavetheorysound Thank you for the reply.
As a A90 user for more then 2 years I`ve never noticed any muddiness, separation problems, lack of power or micro details. Are you biased too much?
Recently bought Dan Clark Aeon` 2 Closed, it`s mind blowing with A90.
Also A90 works as preamp to Adam A77x`s. I`ve never noticed any problems with micro and macro presentation. And yeah, I`ve seen Interstellar from 4k disc (yes, movies in stereo; I do not have Atmos setup yet) with A90 as preamp to speakers. No need for sub in this case.
I guess you need amps that use some factory pretuning like elevating bass a little, treble a little and here it is: more details, more bass.To me, from the source to the actual mechanical transformation into sound wave, everything between should be as low in distortion to transport "music" thru as close to source. Topping do that, as is proved in measurements done by audio science forum. And they did multitune test, your theory doesn`t make much sense.
Try to build amp yourself. As a specialist in physics, you shouldn`t have problem to add filter at the output that would work as EQ. It is so easy to build more detailed or bass boosted amp. But this will not be neutral and have proper tonal balance. This is problem with most of "audiophile" products: these are boosted in some way to achive kind of "factory sound" which is nonsense cause after that, magic power cables are needed to help with harshness or muddiness.Or change dac, or interconnects. That is how the business goes.
When product which is neutral appears your preferences mindset gets confused. Psychoacoustic, as you said.
Analogy to picture this situation : image you drink one black coffee with 3 spoons of sugar everyday. One day all sugar is gone so you can drink sugarfree coffee only. It tastes weird, right? but which situation shows how coffee really tastes like?
Almost all audiophile amps measure ruler flat in their frequency response, so not sure what you mean by bass or treble being boosted..?
Also, in your analogy with black coffee -- why does it matter what's closest to the truth of the coffee itself? Trying to chase "as the artist/producer intended" is foolish.
At the end of the day, it's a hobby steeped in subjectivism (i.e., our brains searching for hits of dopamine), so if someone prefers their coffee with some sugar, then so be it. I tend to enjoy it both ways and won't get too hung up on it. That being said, I've always found Topping & SMSL to be great values but also boring and uninspiring. I've demo'd some but it's just not my personal style.
Only thing that matters is you enjoying your entertainment. 👌😎
@@asplmn that first statement is simply false, even if you ignore tube amps. If you need crazy amounts of sugar in your coffee then you don't really like coffee, you like sugar. Too much sugar will kill the complexity of a cup. The science behind the hobby was solved 100 years ago. Its straight up capitalism telling you that you cant use a great value amp and EQ. If you lose a chuck of your outer ear, your hearing changes. Do you expect someone to sell all their gear and start over if that happened?
@@dontron810 what do you mean it's false? The only thing that changes is the -3dB point.
I've built almost all of the amplifiers I own now... I understand that, and am not someone who has fallen prey to the clutches of all the snake oil out there. Amps can sound subtly different, but I've found that it's not because of the frequency response. A lot of the time it has to do with the THD spectra (low-order vs high-order), output impedance, etc.
I use EQ with my HD800S out of an RME audio interface. Just solid, German engineering there. I agree, you don't need super expensive amps to accomplish your goal. But, isn't EQ kind of like "more sugar" in this analogy? Lol
I never add sugar to my drinks, so I understand. But, if someone else actually prefers sweet over complex, I get it.
That being said, I've heard tube amps that sound more accurate to my ears than the Topping I've heard. Accurate here meaning realistic. So, I'm not sure if the coffee analogy holds much water in this case. 😝
Try some discrete Class A amps - then get back to us with what you hear. I sent both the OG A90 and Monolith '887 back (returned) after I compared them to my cheaper Emotiva A-100 and Schiit Magni 3+ (both discretes). The discrete were more "alive and natural" across the board. Then I bought a used Gustard H20 discrete Class A amp (for $475, ~$1K when new) - it crushed them all in bass depth and texture, realistic and layered mids, general layering, staging, and texture across the whole frequency range.....
You are spot on. I returned both the A90 and A90D. I prefer the SMSL SP400 personally.
Since I've been looking for comparison of both these, I'd like to ask:
- what was the listening/testing context (songs, quality, DAC/hp..) ?
- what were the differences between them, & what made you take such decision?
Thx
@@bobcoco6047 more dynamic, better timbre, more holographic on hekv2 cans. Applies to all content okayed.
@@bobcoco6047 WaveTheory has a new roundup worth checking out.
@@b00m3rh4nd_sol thx, that's interesting, I read the SP400 was + clinical yet lifeless (in opposition to warm & sweet, not to dynamic...), dry...
It still would probably be a better fit for me, but I'm not sure how much of an improvement it would be over my SP200.
Indeed I just saw that new take on those sound boxes, on the suggestions. 😊 I'll check out 👍🏼
Looking for a DAC and headphone amp for mixing. I have the Nuemann NDH30 and will be buying the Audeze LCD-5. Seggestions welcomed. Cheers.
between the sa-1 and a90d which has better bass extension/impact/texture/air?
If you want bass, the Topping may not be for you. I just spent over $4,500 on my new trophy wife Stellia. That includes buying her a Topping A90D, an iFi Hip Dac 2, a Sc**t Lokius and XLR cables. I know Steallia has plenty of bass because the Hip pumps it out of her. The Hip is GREAT if you want to power your iPod or iPhone, it may actually be better than the Topping. I say that because the A90D does not have enough bass. That is why I had to buy the Lokius tone control unit. Even with the 2 bass settings on the Lokius cranked to the max, I cannot get enough bass. Not so much on newer albums but on some older albums, especially classical albums. This is very frustrating because I sit far away and need a remote control like the A90D offers. It seems I have to live with it or spend WAY more money buying a head amp that has a remote. I was looking at the Moon, but it does not have a balanced headphone connection. Balanced sounds better as the XLR jack on the A90D sounds much better than the normal jack (yet 6 inch XLR cables make no difference on the back connections). My DAC is built into my Marantz CD player. My sound runs from the CD, to the EQ unit, to the A90D, to the Focal Stellia’s. So maybe you won’t have this bass problem if you get a separate DAC.
just ordered one yesterday lol
Great review!! I bought the A90D during the early days because of all the hype around it, now I think I should have waited a bit for the opinions to come in, its not bad but I think could have done better for the money, for now I am looking for a used Vio V280 which I feel will better suit me, I was still new in the hobby at that time, doing my research, on the hindsight I think sites like Audiosciencereviews are doing a disservice to the community by giving too much emphasis on the cleanliness side of music and loosing the musical aspect in the process, this creates a tunnel vision especially for newbies, context is very important here, ultimately music is a human thing and humans are best placed to evaluate it not an instrument in a lab.
Exactly. The way I look at it is, clearly people think there is a big difference between amps in this hobby and a still noticeable difference between dacs. ASR makes it seem like there is no differences (unless there is weird distortion that Amir can easily see). So I think it’s pretty clear there is a lot of stuff ASR isn’t accounting for as there is very specific trends that most audiophiles seem to agree on online. I could be wrong and they all have the same group bias. But based on how the breakdowns match with certain trends, I don’t see how it’s just placebo. Either way, if people are enjoying stuff and noticing improvements - then that’s a more enjoyable musical experience.
Cleanliness is a great place to start before you apply eq to your own taste, as everyone hears a little bit different. Headphones change sound way more than any amp will tbh
@@dontron810 yes like my hd600’s are awesome for rock and pop music. But maybe with a certain dac I can make it better for orchestra, but at the end of the day, my headphones probably don’t excel at it. There are trade offs to different frequency responses or sound signatures. If someone likes jazz or orchestra music like me with orchestra…in a perfect world I would have 2 headphones I like. Something like the hd600 and another one for orchestra. But I am kinda curious how much a multibit or r2r dac can make a difference in layering of orchestra music. But I agree based on everything I’ve read, headphones make the most difference clearly and we know it’s not placebo because we can see the results.
@@Ray-dl5mp and dacs make even less of a difference than amps. Its not really a secret. The hd600 stage is small, that's probably why you're not getting the most out of orchestras.
@@dontron810 yea I totally agree with that based on what a lot of others say as well. Yea that’s why I said I would have a great orchestra headphone in a perfect world. Maybe someday : )
I own topping gear including the discrete 90, 90 dac, and 2 la 90’s monoblock and it’s clean and works well. I do prefer my Schitt stack. I think the topping gear is overhyped on CZcams. The Schitt stack doesn’t sound more real then the topping but instrument separation is better.
Another very thorough review, thanks. Interesting last part, bringing in your "wave theory physics and brain complexity of us variably hairy apes!
I used to have an A90D, then I heard the Enleum AMP-23R. Noting I've already seen the measurements, I expected it to sound like utter crap, but no, I was blown away. It wiped the floor with the A90D, it was certainly better than the amp output of my Hugo TT2 and it pulled my 11-year-old HD650s onto an even higher plane of performance, at which I've NEVER heard it before.
Zero Global Negative Feedback and current mode operation (incredibly high gain bandwidth) - it's *all* about preserving transients, speed and keeping noise floor rock bottom. In addition to that, it was transparent as hell might I add.
And what's the point? The Enleum AMP-23R costs 10x more.
@@mariocobretti3148 Exactly! lol
wow so you are comparing a $600 amp against a $6000 one brilliant well done🙄🙄
I had a Topping A90 and I sold it exactly because of the reasons you mention here. I must say that initially I was rather impressed with it, i was happy with the things it does well. Also when directly compared to other amps it wants to stand out in direct comparison. But indeed it is skin deep, and once one has detected the shortcomings, this really becomes an issue/annoyance. Perhaps this is what can be said about the other reviewers too - they just got superficially Impressed, wrote their hype review and carried on.
what did you end up getting instead?
Had an A90 and it did very little for me when it came to enjoying music. Ended up returning it and splurging for a GSX Mini which as it turns out does great vibrating pushups! Great analogy at the end. I found it was the most valuable part of the review, even though I have no intentions on buying an A90D. Subbed! 🍻
The phenomenon you are hearing has been known and discussed for the last 50 years, and was written about by Tomlinson Holman in the 1970s. He named it TIM for transient intermodulation distortion, and SID for slew induced distortion. It is caused by large amounts of global feedback with low open loop bandwidth in an amplifier. In nested feedback amplifiers such as the A90 and A90D, this effect is exacerbated. Holman's papers on this phenomenon are a worthwhile read, and also explain how this can be minimized in the design.
The phenomenon is that he was paid money to promote Singxer. There is no difference in the sound if the frequency response is the same. Both Singxer Sa1 and Topping A90D do sound absolutely the same for the one who is healthy mentally. That I say as an owner of both devices. But what says this guy... he's probably got some kind of mind disease or something, for sure. Disney should hire him for new Star Wars screenplay.
Why I come across this vid again?
I just bought a A90 this week. You are absolutely correct in your review. The singers sound restrained. I went right back to my Schitt Jotunheim 2. I’ve come to believe your the only reviewer I can trust.
Thanks for the kind words
@@wavetheorysound Im subscribing exactly for this reason. I'm honest to god tired of all the other reviewers spewing garbage about maximizing measurements from these chinese chifi manufacturers and totally ignoring every other aspect involved in music reproduction. I spent a lot on Topping gear and a lot on other VERY pricy chifi gear only to be completely let down all of the time. As a result you just convinced me to buy a Jot 2. Thank you.
Thanks for your honest opinion. Telling the good AND the bad is important.
You have 100% right not to like Topping sound. Thank you very much.
Completely agree on Objective push failing subjectively. There are still gaps to fill between objectivity and subjectivity. Humans are more subjective than Objective.
So... what is the best headphone amp at 600$? Plan to buy one to drive arya.
Singxer SA-1, Schiit Asgard/Jot2, and used high end amps like the Cavalli/Monolith Liquid Platinum tube/hybrid. Look at discrete Class A designs (I have the Gustard H20 w/ Arya Stealth - primo SQ).....
"Skin deep" is such an accurate description. I got my first Topping amp today, and I was completely underwhelmed. The dynamics sound blunted, and there's no separation or layering. All the sound elements are close together on one plane. I don't understand how so many other can recommend Topping. It's just a dull and uninspiring listening experience
I appreciate the sharing of your experience but I feel like this is a lot of words and not enough testing. If you have a hypothesis about how tests are flawed, I'd like to see it backed up with more measurements from tests with a methodology that addresses those flaws.
Headphones and dac used?
14:05-16:02
You're right. Compared to my Jotunheim 2, this amp just isn't nearly as dynamic or "full" sounding.
Did you blind test ?
@@Karim-ik5ij No, but it's pretty apparent. I paid substantially more for the A90D, so one would expect an audiophile to be biased in favor of the more expensive equipment! But I'm not. I detect more dynamics with the $400 Jot2. It may be possible there's more detail with the A90D, but it's really not enough that I feel like I'm missing out on anything. And I A/B tested with dozens of songs, listening for specific, subtle details.
@@SpykerSpeed I'm really big on blind testing :) I can tell you our mind plays tricks on us some times but interesting to know!
So, The Topping A90D is an improvement over the original. It sounds better and the macro dynamics were improved. Foe those who are not audiophile people and just like to listen to music, you would enjoy this amp. However the micro dynamics is where it falls short. Sure you could buy a SPL Phonitor SE for more money where these details would be picked up. But of you want a amp in a similar price range of the Toppings with improved micro dynamics, look at the Lake People G105 MKII.
They are pretty successful in getting money from the budget crowd making them feel everything is a gaint killer...
Never used testing gear, but why isn’t it possible to design test rigs that can accept more complicated signals? Just a question.
My guess is it's very hard. Many of the measurement rigs used are already many multikilobucks in cost. Synthesizing harmonics in a lifelike way that also makes them consistent and persistent enough to make standardized measurements is also exceedingly difficult. We should also be careful not to assume that sine wave based measurements are never useful. They have a purpose. They can be very effective in giving a rough idea of how effective a circuit design will be for certain uses, and electronics makers use them all the time as a QC tool during the design process. The problem stems from using their limited role to extrapolate to broader conclusions about how good or a bad then end product is.
They exist. It's not hard (only expensive). This guy doesn't understand AF measurements or circuit design but has a gut feeling how overtones and harmonics are reproduced and represented.
@@Maver1ck911 He also doesn't understand psychoacoustics. Have a look at this guy's material, he actually is an audio engineer with years of experience in the psychoacoustics and a thorough understanding of measurement and the equipment to do it properly. www.youtube.com/@AudioScienceReview
@@jovianr900 did you really just link me ASR lmao
Please listen with more effervescent music, no dark music tries with this and you will see:
Ritmo & Pettra - Cloud Passing
Recently I've come to wonder if 'discrete' amps just sound better than 'chip' amps? A90 vs A90D?
A couple of thoughts on this... 1) while my ears generally agree with your take I think that's because that's how it is right now but it's not guaranteed to be that way forever. Discreet designs came first, are older, and have more trial-and-error time behind them. Opamp designs may very well get there in time. 2) Discreet designs allow for more design freedom. Because they use discreet parts the designer is able to mix and match, play with the circuit design, etc. There are more opportunities for tuning than when all the amp components are cast onto a single chip. Opamps and opamp-based designs are improving. So I think the jury is still out. My guess is ultimately they will reach roughly equal levels of performance and it will be even more of a preference-based decision for each individual piece of kit.
@@wavetheorysound I just got my Asgard 3. And wow...there is so much more depth than my Atom amp. Atom amp gives me this clarity and separation but Asgard gives me an idea of the room that piano is playing in.
This ^^^ - pretty much. I did a comparison with the OG A90 and Monolith '887 on one side (ie: both IC "chip" based amps) vs Emotiva A-100, Schiit Magni 3+, and Gustard H20 (all discrete amps, with the H20 being Class A). HPs were Hifiman Arya V2. Neither of the chip amps sounded as "natural" in timbre or soundstaging as the cheaper Emo and Magni 3+ - with the Class A H20 crushing all of them. In short - most discrete amps simply pass more information than chip amps - things like bass depth and texture, trailing edges, microdetails, and texture all across the frequency spectrum.
@@Ezees23 that's interesting. So far I've only compared the atom amp with Schiit Asgard 3. Only noticed the thicker sound (warmer) and mostly just happy to have gotten away from that 'wall of sound' effect of the Atom Amp (chip amp).
Once again I totally agree with WaveTheory and wonder if everyone else is shilling. I bought this thing with a D90 III Sabre as a stack based on other reviewers and am SO UNDERWHELMED. Your analogies are great. I found it the most boring amp, and as you said it comes off underpowered somehow, maybe to do with the delivery. There’s no staging and expansion, and it’s just fine for everything else, it’s just blah.Its not bad, its just not good either. It sounds the way it looks - totally forgettable. I would add that the user interface and remote are nothing great either and further degrade the experience. Actually packing it up to return right now. Keep up the great reviews Wave Theory, never buying something again without you reviewing it.
Great video. I personally prefer the overly smooth sound of my A90 as I cannot stand for one minute any harshness or sibilance in most tracks. I don't doubt there's competing stuff that may sound more dynamic and authentic, but I am very happy with my current setup.
Thanks for the view and comment. I'm glad you've found your musical enjoyment. I am a bit surprised, tho. OG A90? May I ask which headphones? My experience with Topping is they tend to go fairly sharp quicker then most. But perhaps you've found a combo that avoids most of it.
Oh my God. I bought A90D 2 days ago to listen to headphones. I was hoping that its neutral sound would convey the entire sound picture from the Gustard R26 DAC. After your review, I concluded that I was very wrong and this amplifier will spoil the sound from the DAC beyond recognition. I got very upset.
I planning this combo, don't worry too much I think it is a great pairing
So if the A90 is truly neutral and transparent then what you're hearing is just your overpriced and outdated dac. Maybe what you had before was covering up those flaws
@@dontron810 I thought so too. In my opinion, any amplifier should amplify by passing the sound path through itself without the slightest distortion. In fact - the author of the review claims that this amplifier sounds lifeless, analytical and, most importantly, without air and a big music scene, which is important to me. In your opinion, it turns out that the author of the review has a bad DAC and headphones? This review is not the first one where they talk about not the most pleasant sound picture coming out of the amplifier. This is what annoys me. I spent money on a quality Gustard R26 DAC and as a result its incredible sound and sound stage will suffocate in the depths of the A90D amplifier? It turns out that you need to return the amplifier and buy it for 3-4k bucks .... Man, my pocket is not swollen with money. I was hoping this headphone amp was a good option.
@@EvgeniyRC Try a discrete Class A amp like the Singxer SA-1 for ~$600 or other discrete amps - they'll be a lot better, IMO.....
Biggest question: If someone had covered up the name "Topping" with one of your pet-brands, how different would this "review" have been?
I mean, a great amp for testing and measuring, but not for actually listening to music.
I dont have topping amp/dac, but i found them odd from marketing perspective
CMIIW, topping dac/amp that is cheap (100usd-200usd) measure as well as their flagship (there is difference but negligible)
their marketing strategy is that well measured dac/amp is good dac/amp, then cheap topping is most likely as good as expensive topping (negligible difference probably).
if above is true, then why topping have product on multiple price range? Does not make sense to have expensive product if your cheap product is just as good.
Therefore, i kinda suspect that even Topping actually does not believe that measurement are final words. It's just their marketing gimmick.
Feature set.
21:24 Now who would do something like that? 🤔
Their DX7 Pro + amp/dac doesnt make a lot of sense at $700. Its 1.9 watts of power (@32ohms). You can get the A90D + $200 dac for the same money and get 8 more watts of power. I guess you better really like the form factor
Either you're right and everyone else is lying...
Or you're wrong. Literally the only one describing the A90 family as "drowning the music" or "stuck in the mud" to the follow that up with "squeaky clean and clear". It's either detailed or it's a muddy mess; figure it out.
Which one is it?
Again. There's 2 options here to draw conclusions from and one doesn't require a sophomoric understanding of what constitutes music, communication, and amplification circuits.
PS: you don't lift.
PSS: allegedly a degree in physics but have a limited grasp on how multi-tone is generated and measured on a spectrum.
@Grady
You read his words wrong, by clean he meant no amplifier generated noise, by stuck in the mud he meant the musical details is not expressed fully compared to other amp, please don't jump to conclusions without understanding properly.
@@hdsarma I understand fully. It's the reviewer that can't communicate properly which is funny considering he did 4 videos of mental masturbation regarding cables.
@@Maver1ck911 Not sure about you but I think he comunnicated pretty clearly for me, and as I also have an A90D I do agree with his impressions.
@@hdsarma this man thinks cables make a profound difference in the AF range, that lake people is more powerful sounding than the A90D and that a 2V change on the Hypsos is an EQ with obvious and appreciable effects on mids.
I have a GSX mini in, this is hilarious to me.
I hate to be that ass but did you at least blind test it with other amps? If you are saying that all the toppings have a similar sound flaw, then it may be in your head. Would be interesting to see
The problem with these kind of amplifiers is that:
a. They lack the quality in the power supply department that limits their dynamic performance in the time domain.
b. The amplifier topology uses lots of feedback loops in order to self correct unwanted frequency components to improve SINAD measurements so the sound is kind of "over-damped" - what you describe as lack of micro-dynamics. Think of it as the electronic equivalent of a Dan Clark Audio headphone : Attractive frequency response but not a dynamic sound.
Hype. Hype. Hype. No. Wait...
I'm a scientist and normally I'm all about measurements and logic reason
But I simply love r2r dacs and discrete solid states. Go figure
Hello, fellow scientist. I used to feel a cognitive dissonance there too. But as I looked into it more it really began to make sense. Have you seen my cables matter series?
@@wavetheorysound Make sense? Keep looking into it furthermore.
Heavy Feedback in an amp vill have that effect, shure it give you low distortion on a sine wave but it focuses on the fundamental note and discards anything else as distortion and correct even the smaller music notes sins there is always a delay from input to output in a electric cirquit and you feed the signal from the output to correct the input signal. Everything from Topping have shit loads of feedback it is the cheapest and simplest way to get "god measurement" and it is a cheap way to fool consumers that they make an objective decision when they don't trust their ears our buy something without listening to it first.
Ding, ding, ding!!!! We have a winner. Bullseye.....
Fantastic. Agreed that you can get a WAY better sounding amp for the price. That said, this is a nice amp for about $300.
...but its $600...
Your idea does have merit. Those amplifiers are designed to pass a test to sell to people who misunderstand what those tests are and what they mean. There is simply not that much significance to how well something perfectly reproduces some beep beeps and some beep sweeps. A sine wave is the most simple signal that can be devised and music can get really really complex. It seems as though people on the internet really have a very big misunderstanding of audio engineering and circuit design. People have an intense desire for hard data, but do not understand the significance or insignificance of that data, take a hard stance on the assumption of a concrete and definitive meaning of that data and subsequently defend those beliefs dogmatically. Really masterful designers of audio circuits use their ears and use the tests as a tool to gain extra-sensory insight, and that's all that it is good for. The human ear is the most advanced audio device and all audio recording and reproduction is simply the human engineering problem of recreating the experience of being present during a musical performance and there is a lot more involved than BEEP BEEP. Musicians and people who are around live instruments and performances are those who have the experience to assess reproductions the most. I could go on and on, but I'll stop.
Any repeating waveform can be made from sine waves, it's the basic building block of all sound. That's why. This happened last century. Different people from around the world working alone came up with the same thing. 4 times.
@@dontron810 It's just a building block of sound. A single sine wave is not complex enough test signal to provide a definitive test that forms a conclusion from the data that it provides. It does provide useful data, but just isn't what some people think that it is. That should clarify what I mean.
@@BlackthorneSoundandCinema If what youre saying is true, then you should be able to find an audible wave that cant be broken down into sines. I'll wait. (ie its like saying humans are too complex to be made up of atoms)
@@dontron810 You are arguing against an argument that I am not making. I said that one sine wave at a time is not a good audio test. I didn't say that music is not made of sine waves. Following your logic to a relevant statement: You can't pressure test an air tank with one molecule of gas.
Stop this nonsense lol.
This happens, because most of the headphones used with such amps have terrible mids, sibilant highs or 0 bass.
Its like bookshelf situation where smart ppl add subs to increase lacking deep bass while morons blame amp🤣🤣🤣
People listen to music, not sine sweeps or measurements. Same reason R2R/ multibit DACs for the most part sound better than DS DACs. You aren't crazy. Gilmore type and amps by Audio-GD run rings around these kinds (THX, etc) of amps.
Too heavy feedback in a poor design with good sinad measurements tends to result in high IMD. Topping doesn't seem to have high IMD. In facts its vanishingly low so Ifind this very curious. Haven't heard a topping amp yet to form my own subjective opinion though. Generally incredibly high bandwidth and current mode tend tosound better.
Hmm, so the more expensive, the better... OK
Or maybe, you need noise and distortion to enjoy your music/headphone, by the way, noise and distortion are perceived as details and "soundstage" by our brain
I just can’t get into ChiFi gear. Much of it is soulless.
"believe me".... just preaching for the cult ....
Your words is a bible for me .