De-Calvinising Romans
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- čas přidán 29. 07. 2024
- Calvinism interprets biblical texts about election, foreknowledge, and predestination in deterministic and individualistic ways. But a more thorough exegesis arrives at a reading that is more consistent with the Bible's presentation of a God who makes provision of salvation through Jesus available for every soul, and that every soul is actually able to respond. This episode focusses on the well-known Romans 8:28-30, addressing especially the contested interpretations of foreknowledge and predestination. (*re-uploaded with adjusted audio levels)
Music by Tony Anderson: "Groundswell" & "Heart of a Nation" via Musicbed: MB01MJ8EUD622GZ ; MB01RZCRDGYKMWC
Twitter: @Matthew515tweet
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:6, ESV)
Calvinism is not sola scriptura. Calvinism is -- Confessions+Institute of Christian Religion+Augustine's philosophies+ scripture(if necessary). This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, TEACHING As DOCTRINES the PRECEPTS of men.
Yes. And I could just as easily say free will is epicurean philosophy.
@@aletheia8054yes, you easily say all sorts of things but you provide zero evidence, show you have zero understanding and operate with zero integrity.
@@GrahameChristianGould “ you provide zero evidence”
Epicurus was arguably the first to make free will a central philosophical issue (see Free will).
Rutledge encyclopedia of philosophy
@@aletheia8054 so you jump from us claiming free will exists to Epicurus claiming it is central. Thank you for proving you have zero understanding or integrity.
@@GrahameChristianGould well there’s no doctrine of free will in the Bible so you must’ve got it from somewhere.
Excellent content, nicely produced.
Thanks. Very clear, concise yet thorough.
This is a very good video
Great presentation!
Great instruction on Romans 8:28-30!
As a fairly young Christian, and trying to learn, I have a question. I do not believe the Calvinistic interpretation. Is it not reasonable to think that because God knows everything and every outcome that he foreknows those who will ultimately make the choice to put their faith in Christ?
Yes, agreed. Calvinists seem to equate fore-knowing with fore-determining, however. (*sorry if the video was unclear on this point).
You’re making a conclusion that’s a little extra-biblical. There are many episodes in scripture where God plainly seems to not know what was happening or what was going to happen. And then there are a ton of other episodes where God clearly does know what is going to happen.
I think the correct Biblical understanding of God’s knowledge would be to say, and you’re not going to find this out in the literature anywhere unfortunately, that God can know anything in the future that he wishes to know. He doesn’t have to know anything if he doesn’t want to.
This version of omniscience actually makes best sense of all of scripture and also stays consistent with his other characteristics like omnipotence and omnipresence.
@@TheRomans9Guy You mean *omniscience? Interesting point. What do you do, then, with passages such as: 1 John 3:20; Psalm 139:4; Matt 10:30; Heb 4:13; Psalm 44:21? Just to mention a few. Perhaps you get your conclusion based on God's reaction to events in time? Such as the wickedness in the days of Noah? I believe knowing something in advance does not take the ability to feel something about it when it happens - e.g., we know when someone is pregnant that in about 9 months a new life will enter the world - but the emotions on that day are still very sudden and real.
@@Matthew515tweet Omniscience, yes. Auto-correct error. I’ve changed it.
There are plenty of passages that bolster the idea of God knowing all things, no dispute.
The internet, and CZcams of all places, is no place to go for rational discussions, especially theological ones. )The only worse place to go might be Reddit, fwiw.) You may imagine I’m some kind of crackpot, religiously tied to the idea of limiting God’s power of omniscience. And not that I’m getting that from your comments, you’ve been nothing but intelligent and polite. But I’ve had my share of run ins with people who have crazy ideas, completely unhinged from scripture and logic. I’m hoping this isn’t that.
These passages you cite are good passages, but if we try to be rational/fair with the text, they’re not flat-out conclusive. The 1 John 3 passage is in context with us not trusting our convictions and John appeals to God knowing our hearts even when we don’t. Fair enough. Psalm 139 is lovely and poetic, and paints an amazing God. It’s not a theological essay, but it is supportive to your point. In Matthew 10 Jesus is talking of God’s great care for each human. The same with Hebrews 4. All these passages paint a supreme and loving God.
But there are also tons of times in scripture where God regrets how things have turned out, or he asks man a question, seemingly not knowing the answer. There’s even a time where he is quoted saying (paraphrasing) ‘If I knew what they intended I would have made a different plan,’ or something close to that effect.
I’m not an anti-omniscience nut. This isn’t my main area of contention against traditional theology. It’s much more of a sideline issue for me, otherwise I would have all these quotes ready to fire off, with correct citations.
But if you’ve studied the scriptures, or if you take up this challenge and study them now with the intent of looking for passages like these, I think you might find, as I have, that taken on their face, the passages that show God not knowing something are about as numerous and convincing as the passages that paint him as having deep knowledge, like the ones you cited. And I don’t think we can discount that.
@@TheRomans9Guy perhaps you could make your case more fully in video format and notify us when ready?
Did anyone ever consider that God in his sovereignty gave the choice to man to serve him or not man or woman to love him or not does not show that God is sovereignty still I don't think we need to defend it we need to see it
Given that people read the text as language, I think you're analysis, while useful for biblical studies, misses the way words are used. I prefer to examine the passage based on the words themselves. As linguist myself, I'm interested in how Greek forms words, as as found in the word 'predestination.' It consists of two word, pró, "before" and horízō, meaning to establish boundaries or limits beforehand. (horizo is the base word for our modern 'horizon'). Proorízō means "to pre-establish boundaries." Now, I would have to do some digging to verify my gut feeling, but this sounds like pastoral language. A shepherd herding sheep might think of an area of land as having boundaries where the sheep may roam. The shepherd is not Determining the sheep's actions, but keeping them from wandering away. One might read Romans 8:29 as 'those God foreknew he corralled so as to be conformed to his son'. Does anyone have an opinion or comment on this?
Amazing video. Thank you!
The Bible says Those whom he fore knew he predestined.
This guys Bible says those whom he fore knew what they would do, he predestined
Did you Catch the error there ?
That's the problem. The doctrine of election is never meant to go any further than what it simply is. Taking it to its 'logical ends' is failing to understand that its nothing more than a peak into God's mind and modus operandi. It should in no way affect other commands of God to pray, evangelize and even persuade people to repent. This typically narrow interpretation through mental gymnastics is always unconvincing. If you want a clearly personal passage about election, look at Acts 13:48. To say that people have the ability to respond to the gospel apart from God first giving life represents a gross misunderstanding of sin. Of note, communities uninfluence by any outside theological teaching, such as churches behind the iron curtain, had no issues with accepting election.
Thank you for your thoughts. Perhaps you could be more specific about one of the 'mental gymnastic' parts? P.s., I also have a video on Acts 13:48.
Well, the doctrine of election isn’t biblical, so it doesn’t really matter.
Thanks for your thorough explanation which makes perfect sense to me. If the Calvinistic view was true, why would it be necessary to preach and spread the Gospel at all? To preach repentance would make no difference to what has already been predestined.
Blessings from New Zealand.
Kiaora, Eugene - thanks for the comment. Blessings
We preach the Gospel because Christ commanded us to do so, but also because we're on the hunt for God's sheep, just like the Apostle Paul.
@@johnhoran9840Do you believe God WANTS ALL to be His sheep & that ALL CAN become one of His sheep?
@@mikelyons2831 You're suggesting that the eternal matter of salvation is determined in time. You're also suggesting that the matter of salvation is left up to us. God loves His sheep, Christ died for His sheep, and all of His sheep will be saved. He commands us to preach the Gospel to all creatures because we don't know who His sheep are.
@@johnhoran9840 I thought you might be coming from a Calvinistic perspective. You do know John 10 only mentions "Sheep" & not Sheep & Goats?
Salvation DOES happen in time... that God created for us to live in & ideally get saved in this lifetime.
Guessing you've been taught Ephesians 1:4-5 is a magic bullet to put opposition to Calvinism to rest. No one is "In Christ"/"In Him before they receive Jesus as Savior...see vs 13 "In Him you also trusted, AFTER you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise". No one is pre-saved in eternity past, that's Calvinism... not scripture.
Now see Ephesians 2:11-13, hmm, someone wasn't put in Christ before they received Jesus??
Now Galatians 4:8-9. Look at Paul's friends who were saved before him Romans 16:7. No salvific occurrence in Acts happened in eternity past either.
I find that Calvinists are often careless in their living. And why not?
Most of them drink alcohol to excess, excusing such a practice as a “blessing” from God, and generally conform to the patterns of the world.
Not been my experience at all.
Wow! Just how many "Calvinists" do you know?
Debate James White !
Haha 😬 Might just pray for him for now 🙏
James White doesn't debate in a debate. He rants and accused his opponent's with things not even related to the topic of discussion.
The Bible speaks of both choice and destiny to everything. It's both. They are not opposed. What is opposed are people who cannot fully accept the teachings of the Bible and want to make their own churches and hate each other over things they have trouble understanding. The thief on the cross did not have perfect theology. He just knew he needed help from Christ and turned to him.
The struggle in this conversation is accepting a God who made Satan with a purpose and One that entreats us to, "choose life." That struggle is being used to throw toxicity against each other and it's not from God. The Calvinist needs to accept that in His control, He can very much make people's choices matter and for them to be 100% responsible, that people need to respond to God and that that in no way takes from God being the One who saves people. The Arminianist needs to accept that God does not share their sense of what is perfect, good, or divine and that whatever decision He makes is right, even if that means knowingly creating the Devil. These insecurities are not a good enough reason to hate your brother and to schism the church. The inability to understand how both are right is also not a justified reason to ignore either one in scripture. Stop hating each other. It's wrong. Do not be like Cain.
Appreciate your thoughts, but I gather they are directed not at the tone and content of the video, but at an assumption based on the title. Happy to hear your criticism about specific points if you end up watching / listening to it.
@@Matthew515tweet I did and yes, I am not specifically speaking at the video. Thanks for the honor of the reply. You did good work on the video and all your information was professionally put forward.
It's sad you strawman the topic by assuming the false dichotomy of Arminian and Calvinist. They are both results of Augustine's corruption of Christianity by importing gnostic determinism to respond to Pelagius.
God did NOT create Satan to be the cause of evil. He was created to be the "covering cherub", but he had a choice. God knew what He would choose and allowed it. That's not destiny which is a pagan concept the way you are using it. Our destiny is a result of our choices and God's rules about the consequences of lifestyle and faith.
@@servantofjesuschrist-tb8ns
I have never read Augistine nor the gnostics nor any literature from an Armenian teacher nor anything from a Calvinist early father. I do, however, read the Bible and there are quite a few verses that could imply destiny: "Why did you make me like this?" "He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His son."
Let's quote you though: "God did NOT create Satan to be the cause of evil ... God knew what He would choose and allowed it."
So God knew and created him the same way anyway? But that somehow is not the same as creating him to be that way? Cool. This type of logic tells me our conversation is probably over, seeing as you believe God does not take personal responsibility for His actions. "Who will deceive Ahab for me? ... 'Go and deceive him.'"
@@servantofjesuschrist-tb8ns I have never read Augistine nor the gnostics nor any literature from an Armenian teacher nor anything from a Calvinist early father. I do, however, read the Bible and there are quite a few verses that could imply destiny: "Why did you make me like this?" "He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His son."
Let's quote you though: "God did NOT create Satan to be the cause of evil ... God knew what He would choose and allowed it."
So God knew and created him the same way anyway? But that somehow is not the same as creating him to be that way? Cool. This type of logic tells me our conversation is probably over, seeing as you believe God does not take personal responsibility for His actions. "Who will deceive Ahab for me? ... 'Go and deceive him.'"
Unfortunately, the Calvinist can only view God's grace and human free will as "Either/Or". Salvation is either by grace or free will. However, the vast majority of the Church has seen it as "Both/And".
God works out his purposes in cooperation with the people he has created capable of freely cooperating with him by faith.
Why? Because in his sovereignty he chooses to.
Any attempt to define this as works righteousness, or an assault on the sovereignty and glory of God, is absurd.
'pre - science' - LOL! PLEASE LEARN /preʃəns/
....Or...the "predestined" ones are specifically the apostles. Eph 1 3- 12 uses only pronouns "us" and we" defined in verse 12 as "we who were the first to hope in Christ" and then contrasted with "you" who were sealed when you believed. There are two groups of believers referenced there. One group was predestinated "before" the foundation and received revelations and spiritual blessings to be passed on to an infinitely larger group that is included in those blessings "after" they believe the words of the first group.
Jesus' Gethsemane prayer in Jn 17 is a parallel to Eph 1. Two groups of believers are in view. Firstly, Jesus prays solely for the apostles (eleven at the time) from verses 6-19. He says that they were the ones the Father "gave" to Him and none were lost save Judas for the fulfillment of Scripture. In verse 20, Jesus then begins to pray for all those who will hear the words of the apostles and believe....just as Paul describes in Eph 1. The idea that the apostles were the only ones "given" to the Father goes back to John 6. No one (in Israel) could go to Jesus unless the Father "gave/ drew" them to Jesus since the whole nation was under a spirit of stupor according to Isaiah 6.
The section in Romans 8 that speaks of the predestined ones also mentions that it was unto a "purpose" as does Eph 1. Verse 36 says "WE are killed all day long for YOUR sake".....two groups of people. At that point in time the apostles were being persecuted and the church at large was not. This is parallel with 1 Cor 4 where Paul shows how he separates the apostles from the rest of the Church with "we/us and you" while saying that it was the apostles that were counted as sheep for the slaughter...."killed all day long".
1Co 4:8-9 YOU are already full! YOU are already rich! YOU have reigned as kings without US--and indeed I could wish YOU did reign, that WE also might reign with YOU! For I think that God has displayed US, the APOSTLES, last, as men condemned to death; for WE have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.
The apostles were predestined from before the foundation....literally chosen for a "purpose". Every other believer is sealed with the Spirit "after" they believe the testimony of those apostles. It's really quite simple.
One could also say that it discourages unbelievers from coming to Christ.
You mean discourages the Calvinist, why would it discourage believers?
@@catalina7294 I said "unbelievers."
The thought of God choosing a nonbeliever could discourage them from coming to Christ? I’ve never met a nonbeliever who thought they didn’t believe because God didn’t choose them. Every single nonbeliever I’ve ever met believes what Arminians teach, that their free will choice decides whether or not they come to Christ. I think the biblical teaching that God chooses His elect and predestines them to receive saving faith in Christ by grace would actually be very encouraging to a nonbeliever. Your salvation is not up to you to obtain or maintain. You might be an unbeliever today, but if you are one of the sheep Jesus says you belong to Him and that He won’t lose any that His Father gave Him! If God chose you as one of His elect, you will profess saving faith in Christ before you die. To a nonbeliever, that seems pretty encouraging to me.
@@davisbelas3516 the thought of God condemning most of humanity for not doing something over which they have no control is definitely discouraging. On Calvinism, odds are you're a reprobate whether you consider yourself a believer or not.
@@AndrewKeifer I think Romans 9 addresses your rebuttal.
You missed the context in Romans 8...Sorry.
@@SugoiEnglish1 ok? Can you provide some more detail?
A better understanding of Paul’s teaching on election, in both Ephesians and Romans, is that Paul is correcting the Jewish theological error that taught that God only chose the Jews, fixing it by showing that God choose the Gentiles also. Everyone is chosen.
If you’re interested I would tie this up with scriptural references in both Romans and Ephesians.
Yes please interested 🙏🏻 😊
"Calvinism interprets biblical texts about election, foreknowledge, and predestination in deterministic and individualistic ways. But a more thorough exegesis arrives at a reading that is more consistent with the Bible's presentation of a God who
*makes provision of salvation through Jesus available for every soul*
*and that every soul is actually able to respond*
And THAT in black and white is the problem with Arminian theology.
You literally begin with the premise:
We KNOW God makes provision of salvation for EVERY soul AND every soul is able to respond,
THEN you "interpret" scriptures.
Why not just read the bible and accept what it ACTUALLY says?
Can you answer these questions?
(1) Did God give "every soul" "provision" for salvation in the Old Testament?
If so, what does it mean that God;
*Gave His word ONLY to Israel and not the gentiles (Psalm 147:19-20)
*OVERLOOKED the ignorance of the gentiles (of who HE was) (Acts 17:30)
*Allowed the Gentiles to "go their own way." (Acts 14:16)
*Says that "At THAT time (gentiles) were WITHOUT Hope and WITHOUT God" (Ephesians 2)
(2)
Adam had ACTUAL free will because he had not fallen into sin yet.
Yet Adam STILL disobeyed God!
Israel (earthly/natural) had God's word. The Old Covenant was
*If a man DOES these things, he will live*
Yet, Israel did NOT OBEY!
So we see that
1. God did NOT "make provision" for salvation to "every person" in the Old Testament
2. The ones who God DID "make provision for" did NOT obey!
Man's "Free Will" is the PROBLEM that God had to solve.
Read Hebrews 8:8
*WHAT DOES GOD SAY WAS THE PROBLEM WITH THE OLD COVENANT*
(3) Read Jeremiah 32:40 and the rest of Hebrews 8
*HOW DOES GOD SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF MAN "TURNING AWAY" FROM HIM?
(4) WHO Does the scripture say does all the work of salvation?
WHAT does HE do?
Thanks for your honest thoughts, and some specific pushbacks. I'll try invest some time into responding, but maybe we can make it a point for point. I'll respond to your salvation OT contention to begin with, but then you should let me know what I've specifically said that is in error when exegeting Romans 8:28-30.
So, I would firstly go to Jonah and Ninevah as a case in point: God sends a prophet to this Gentile city-state to warn them of coming judgement, and when the entirety of its inhabitants repent, God relents. Nowhere is there any indication that they adopted Mosaic law, got circumcised and went and made sacrifices in Jerusalem. This is not to suggest that they found salvation in the same sense that we who are in Christ have, but the text clearly indicates they went from being objects of wrath to objects of mercy.
A second main point is how provision was given for any stranger / foreigner to join themselves to the elect nation of Israel. I.e., Israel's election as a whole did not preclude individuals from joining the number of individuals that constitute that whole.
Third, I don't see Scripture teaching explicitly that election = eternal salvation. Israel's election was to represent God to the nations, to be an example of His mercy and chastening, the vessel through which he would demonstrate His power, deliver the law, and bring forth the Promised Seed - the Messiah.
Fourth, the are many examples of God's grace extending beyond the Israel- community (see Luke 4:26-27 as a starter)
P.S. the view represented by this channel aligns more with provisionism than Arminianism.
@@Matthew515tweet
Thank you Matthew. You are one of the VERY few who has responded in a civil manner. Contrary to what proponents of "Free Will" claim, it is THEY who usually respond with caustic remarks like "Calvinism is demonic" or "I wouldn't worship a god like that. " The irony is that THEY slander the God they claim to believe, in favor of their own "god," created in their own minds and who looks more like Santa Clause than The Lord.
To respond to your post:
First keep in mind, here is what I see as the assumptions/presuppositions of Arminian/Provisionism/Free Will doctrine:
1. God is love and wants "every single person" to be saved.
2. God gives "every single person" a "chance" to believe.
3. People DO have the ability to believe.
But as I showed you in my first post:
*Gave His word ONLY to Israel and not the gentiles (Psalm 147:19-20)
*OVERLOOKED the ignorance of the gentiles (of who HE was) (Acts 17:30)
*Allowed the Gentiles to "go their own way." (Acts 14:16)
*Says that "At THAT time (gentiles) were WITHOUT Hope and WITHOUT God" (Ephesians 2)
Question 1:
*Where do you find provision in these verses?*
Second,
Yes, Ninevah is an example of an EXCEPTION, not a rule.
Again, please show where scripture states that God made provision for masses of gentiles that were "overlooked" and "allowed to go their own way?"
*REMEMBER The very problem with ISRAEL was THEY TOO "turned away from God" (Hebrews 8) by their "Free Will"
And where is "Away from God?"
Answer: *THEIR OWN WAY* which is to their own destruction! Just like the gentiles who went their own way.
Also,
Remember:
1. Israel was SPECIAL among other nations. He made "provision" for them He did NOT make for the others AND valued their lives OVER The gentiles:
"Since you are precious and honored in my sight, and because I love you, I will give people in exchange for you, nations in exchange for your life." -Isaiah 43:4
2. God told Israel in MANY places NOT to make a treaty with the *INHABITANTS of the land* or they would be a snare to them:
"Then the Lord said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you. 11Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. a 14Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Exodus 34:10-14
3. God told Israel to *KILL THEM ALL including children* "Show them NO mercy" (Deut 2:34, 7:2, Joshua 6:17-21, 1 Samuel 15:2-3 )
4. God DID however make "provision" for *ONLY THOSE WHO LIVED OUTSIDE THE LAND*
*NOT FOR THE INHABITANTS*
Deuteronomy 20:10-18
10 When you march up to attack a city, *MAKE ITS PEOPLE AN OFFER OF PEACE*
11 If they accept and open their gates, *all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you*
12 IF THEY REFUSE TO MAKE PEACE AND THEY ENGAGE YOU IN BATTLE LAY SIEGE TO THAT CITY
13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, *put to the sword all the men in it*
14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.
15 *This is how you are to treat all the cities that are AT A DISTANCE FROM YOU AND DO NOT BELONG TO THE NATIONS NEARBY*
16 *However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance*
*DO NOT LEAVE ALIVE ANYTHING THATA BREATHES*
17 Completely destroy[a] them-the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-as the Lord your God has commanded you.
18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
Question 2:
Where do you find "Provision" for the inhabitants of the land?
Ninevah, the few foreigners who joined themselves to Israel are the EXCEPTION and actually prove my point that the bible does NOT teach that God wants "Every single person" to be saved, nor did he make "Provision" for them to be.
God always saves SOME!
He only saved SOME of the nation of Israel and in the OT AND NT He only saves SOME of the gentiles!
But ONLY because HE chose to "Of HIS own will" and not for any other reason!
*HERE IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO CONSIDER*
I have listened to and read MANY who hold to the "Free Will" doctrine.
ALWAYS, whether spoken or unspoken, their premise begins with
"We know God is LOVE and a loving God wouldn't do the things Calvinists teach."
1. The doctrine is the doctrine of Sovereign Election. And it's biblical.
Calvin did not write the bible and I have not read one word of his works to come to the understanding of Sovereign Election. Not one!
2. God's main attribute is His HOLINESS (not love) AND His main purpose is HIS GLORY (NOT the salvation of people)
Nowhere does scripture tell us that God is "Love Love Love" or "Merciful Merciful Merciful."
We only read that HE IS the "Thrice Holy God" "HOLY HOLY HOLY!"
And God KILLED people for not taking His Holiness seriously!
After GOD KILLED Nadab and Abihu, Moses said:
"“’Among those who approach me I will be proved holy; in the sight of all the people I will be honored.’” Aaron remained silent." (Leviticus 10:3)
Remember Also, NOBODY in Israel should have been spared! NOBODY!
But God left a SMALL remnant (Isaiah 1:9, Romans 9:29)
For HIS purpose!
"For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another." - Isaiah 48:11
"22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: *IT IS NOT FOR YOUR SAKE* people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, *BUT FOR THE SAKE OF MY HOLY NAME* which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.
23 I will show THE HOLINESS OF MY GREAT NAME* which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, *WHEN I AM PROVED HOLY* through you before their eyes. -Ezekiel 36
And if you want to follow up with the next verses, it is GOD WHO MAKES HOLY, the REMNANT that HE chose.
How does HE do this?
By "taking away their heart of stone and GIVING a heart of flesh" (ie a soft heart that IS able to believe and obey)
Read my first post.
THIS is the NEW Covenant where GOD does the work INSIDE of His "Elect."
Again man's "Free Will" failed EVERY time,including in the garden!
If GOD had not saved SOME (not EVERY person) NONE would be saved!
And yes, Election IS unto salvation! But I've written too much already.
@@rolysantos sorry - I wasn't clear RE election not equaling salvation. I meant it in the context of the Old Testament. Election is very often connected to eternal salvation in the New Testament. There are different types of Election / choosing - e.g., service, salvation, roles, etc. Will respond more later. (*but you didn't find any exegetical errors in the vid vis-a-vis Rom 8:28-30?...)
@@Matthew515tweet
Yes, actually I did find errors.
Here's what I found:
You said:
1. The Gospel is intended to be preach to ALL (ie "every single person)
2. To be genuinely hoped to be received by as many as possible.
3. Two main possibilities of "Foreknew"
A. Know in advance
B. PRE Love
You favor A.
"Therefore, the foreknown are those who the god who dwells in eternity knew would willingly and freely receive the gift of salvation in time...."
5. "There are no indications that either Jew or Greek are being singled out in chapter 8"
6. Regarding Pre-Destination to hell: You did not make an argument that it's not true. You only claimed that Calvinists try to avoid this.
But I do not because the bible says it very clearly!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Where does the bible say that the gospel is intended to be preached to "every single person?"
Colossians 1:23 is a non issue for reasons I don't have room to write here.
If you want to speak of God wanting "All Men" to be saved, or God so loved "The World," I contend t hat in each and every verse that uses these phrases in the context of who God wants to be saved, it means "NOT JUST JEWS" but gentiles too!
*Israel was God's "Treasured Possession" among the nations.
(I've already shown you this and the fact that God gave "people in exchange for you" should be self evident that God had NOT intended to save gentiles as He did Israel, LET ALONE "AS MANY AS POSSIBLE" .)
*Even until AFTER Christ was ascended, His disciples still did not know that gentiles were included in God's plan of salvation. They still considered gentiles as "dogs."
*Even Peter needed an object lesson from God in Acts 10 not to call unclean what GOD had called clean (gentiles)
*The message in each verse which speaks of "All Men" and "The World" is "Hey Jews, do you not understand God has included the Gentiles???"
Look at the context of your favorite verse and see:
Example:
In John 12:32 Jesus said
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
Free Will proponents claim this means "Every single person," but the actual text is "All PEOPLES"
and in verses 20-21 we read:
"20 Now there were certain Greeks among those who came up to worship at the feast. 21 Then they came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida of Galilee, and asked him, saying, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.”
Remember even AFTER Jesus was ascended Peter STILL did not know gentiles were accepted. The fact that gentiles came to Philip wanting to speak to Jesus would most likely have puzzled him as it did Peter later on.
Notice also that even while Jesus was speaking the Jews present were DOUBTING Him saying
"“We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?” 35 Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. ..................
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, *THEY DID NOT BELIEVE IN HIM*
By Jesus telling the Jews that when He is lifted up He will draw "ALL PEOPLES" (gentiles too) is similar to when he chastised the Mathew 21 where He said:
"“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it."
ie A HOLY nation (1 Peter 2:9), made up of Jews AND Gentiles (ALL MEN)
THIS is the context of every verse that speaks of "All Peoples" and "The world." It NEVER means "every single person"
2. My friend, God does not "Hope" to do anything. He DOES it!
And GOD reveals who He His to those whom HE chooses to.
The wind blows where *IT WISHES* and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.
*So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.* John 3:8
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and *the one to whom the SON WILLS to reveal Him* -Matthew 11:27
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for *flesh and blood has not revealed this to you*
*BUT MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN* -Matthew 16:17
John 17
You have given Him *authority over all flesh*
Jesus HAS authority over ALL flesh, ALL people, EVERY SINGLE ONE!
But for WHAT purpose of God?
Answer:
*THAT HE SHOULD GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO AS MANY AS YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM* Not "As many as possible" . ....
NOTICE:
a. Jesus' purpose is NOT to give eternal life to "every single person."
b. Jesus does NOT " genuinely hoped to be received by as many as possible."
6 “I have manifested Your name* to the men whom You have given Me out of the world*
*THEY WERE YOURS* (PAST TENSE. ie from the foundation of the world)
You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. *I do not pray for the world* but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
NOTE: In this context "the world" DOES mean "every single person" because Jesus is contrasting those He
a. Prays for: Those INIDIDUALS given to Him OUT OF the world
b. Does NOT pray for: ALL OTHER individuals.
24 “Father, I desire that *THEY* (ONLY the ones He was given, not "every single person") also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
5. "There are no indications that either Jew or Greek are being singled out in chapter 8"
Correct, but we must take into consideration the ENTIRETY of scripture.
All of Romans is tied together.
Look at Romans 11:
I say then, has God cast away His people?
The common understanding of this question is "Has God cast away the nation of Israel? (ie His People))
But Paul clarified who "His People" are.
Certainly not! *For I also am an Israelite* of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Paul is making a distinction between those among Israel who are OF FAITH (Israel of God)
And those among Israel who are NOT of faith (Israel "After the flesh")
And WHO is it that God has not cast away?
Answer:
2 God has not cast away His people *whom He foreknew*
He already told us in Romans 8 who the people are whom he foreknew:
"29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
There are ONLY 2 groups of Israel and EVERY person is in one group or the other.
And these people are INDIVIDUALS!
Yes, God "foreknew" AND predestined individuals!
Your assertion that ""Therefore, the foreknown are those who the god who dwells in eternity knew would willingly and freely receive the gift of salvation in time...."
Neither your explanation NOR the scripture bears this assertion out!
*Paul continues in Romans 11*
Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”?
4 *But what does the divine response say to him?*
*POP QUIZ*
WHAT WAS THE DIVINE RESPONSE????
A. Seven thousand have reserved themselves for me by their free will.
B. *I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF* seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 Even so then, at this present time *there is a remnant ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE*
*Where do you find free will here???????????*
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then?
*Israel has not obtained what it seeks*
but *THE ELECT HAVE OBTAINED IT*
*AND THE REST WERE BLINDED*
*WHERE DO FIND A GENUINE HOPE FOR THE GOSPEL TO BE RECEIVED IN THIS VERSE?*
@@rolysantos Without God and without hope -
But if we read it in its immediate context:
"11Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands- 12that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ."
There's nothing here that specifically pertains to eternal salvation. Having no hope may mean that they did not have the same expectation of the coming Messiah that the Jews had (*which Paul mentions in Romans - about what advantage the Jews had).And it does not say all who died outside the Israel fold were condemned to eternal damnation. The wider context of Ephesians is how both Jew and Gentile are brought together in one new family in Christ.
An "Exception"? To what end? - what about Naaman the Syrian, and Zarephath? And what about the Magi from the east? There's nothing to indicate that they were those who had long been observant God-fearers in the sense of being circumcised and offering sacrifices at Jerusalem, or who went on to become that..... seems to be quite a number of "exceptions"...
And what do you do with 1 Peter 3:18-19 - preaching to the 'spirits in prison'?
Your interpretation of "foreknew" doesn't work for multiple reasons:
1. It changes the object of the verb to an action someone does instead of the person itself
2. "foreknew" is an active verb. It's something God does, not something he passively takes in
3. If it's an action that's foreknown it is not mentioned in the verse and it creates an incoherent sentence
Why the Calvinist interpretation of "foreknew" is correct:
1. It remains an active verb as an action on God's part
2. It renders as a complete sentence because the object specified is persons and not an unknown action (See Jeremiah 1:5 as an example)
Thank you for your comment. But I’m not sure how the video communicated anything to do with the Greek at this point. And even if it did, I don’t see how your point about ‘foreknew’ being an active verb changes the argument? (It’s *Aorist* Active, by the way.) God’s active foreknowing - and the object to which this foreknowing is directed - does not change the logical position that foreknowing does not equate to fore-determining (nor does it change the basic definition of the term).
You don't have the requisite background and it is proven by your deflection of Calvinists "Narrowing definitions." The scriptures narrow them as it behooves us to understand how they were used in their first-century context. By ignoring NT background and usage, you show yourself quite a junior expositor. Do better.
@@SugoiEnglish1 thanks for your comment. Can you show me an example of how I have "ignored NT background and usage' in this episode?
GRACE is the ONLY Gospel in the bible.
GOD is doing everything.
THE ELECT will serve in the 1000 year Kingdom.
The REST? Will be brought in Later.
Every knee will BOW.
I really don't care what Calvin believed. I just happen to believe the points of "TULIP" because I believe everything in my NKJV Bible.
Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).
Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).
Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
I'm an NKJV fan also, Mike. (*most of my quotations usually come from that version). Is there anything specific about this episode you found erroneous?
L, I, and P, are not found in Scripture. John 6 does not say God rapes the wills of people, it does not say that all drawn will come.
@@Dizerner Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).
Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).
Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
@@mikehamilton7668 The proof texts for LIP are faulty and don't teach those things. T and U are fine.
Since the Holy Writ is written by the Holy Spirit, no unregenerate can understand the things the Spirit teaches the sons of God in the Word. It's foolishness to the natural man, and the unregenerate neither sees, or hears the Truth, because Christ is Truth, and the Spirit is Truth, both of which the unregenerate is void of. The natural man reads not what the Word says, but rather what "he him Self is."
Thanks for your comment. However, that would be a whole other video / debate. Are there any points you can make about the exegesis of the text itself?
@@Matthew515tweet There is. On the entire content. Question for you. How can a man without the Spirit "exegete" anything according to Truth? He can't. Not one verse. The flesh cannot exegete nothing but flesh, meaning, even in the same verse, its not the same interpretation. Does that make sense to you?
@@Matthew515tweet Example. Ask anyone off the street to interpret John 3:16. They only see the plain reading of the face value (flesh) of the texts.
Question for you to really contemplate is, can a man NOT born again from above, without the Interpretor of the Holy Spirit "exegete"Truth from any verse in the Holy Writ? The objective truth is that he cannot. He reads from the texts what he "is", and what he "is" is flesh. If an athiest agrees with you on the meaning of John 3:16 then you two are no different.
@@Matthew515tweet Even if I, an elect child of the promise, a born from above son of God with the Spirit, explain the interpretation of the Holy Writ to a unregenerate, he cannot agree with me. Two different spirits.